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03 Apr 07 - 11:37 PM (#2015807) Subject: Lyr Add: ENGINE 143 (from Joan Baez) From: Mrrzy I am shocked, shocked that (a) I've had mondegreens in this song I've known for almost 50 years, and (b) it isn't in the Trad. One of the best train wreck songs ever! Anyway, voici, à la Joan Baez: ENGINE 143 As recorded by Joan Baez on "Joan Baez, Vol. 2" (1961) Along came the FFV, the swiftest on the line, Running on the C&O road just twenty minutes behind, Running into Seville(?), headquarters on the line, Receiving their strict orders from a station just behind. Georgie's mother came to him with a bucket on her arm. She said: "My darling son, be careful how you run. There's many a man has lost his life in trying to make lost time, But if you run your engine right, you'll get there just on time." Up the tracks she darted; into a rock she crashed. Upside down the engine turned and Georgie's breast is smashed. His head lay against the firebox door; the flames were rolling high. "I'm proud to be born for an engineer on the C&O road to die." The doctor said to Georgie: "My darling boy, be still. Your life may yet be saved if it is God's blessed will." "Oh no," cried George. "This will not do; I'd rather die so free. I want to die for the engine I love, one hundred and forty-three." Then the doctor said to Georgie: "Your life cannot be saved, Murdered upon a railway and laid in a lonesome grave." His face was covered up with blood; his eyes they could not see, And the very last words poor Georgie cried were "Nearer My God to Thee." |
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04 Apr 07 - 02:10 AM (#2015864) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: masato sakurai Listen to The Carter Family HERE (at Honkingduck). |
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04 Apr 07 - 02:22 AM (#2015868) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Bev and Jerry We think you still have some mondegreens and the first verse should be: Along came the FFV the swiftest on the line Running o'er the C&O road just twenty minutes behind Running into souville headquarters on the line Receiving their strict orders from a station just behind Bev and Jerry |
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04 Apr 07 - 02:49 AM (#2015879) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: catspaw49 Here are the most complete lyrics I know of to 143 from a Carter Songbook: Along came the FFV, the swiftest on the line Running o'er the C&O road just 20 minutes behind Running into Seville headquarters on the line Receiving their strict orders from the station just behind Running into Hampton, the engineer was there George Allen was his name, with curling golden hair His fireman, Jack Dixon, was standing by his side Awaiting for strict orders while in the cab to ride Georgie's mother came to him with a bucket on her arm Saying, my darling son, be careful how you run For many a man has lost his life in trying to make lost time And if you run your engine right you'll get there just on time Mother, I know your advice is good and later I'll take heed I think my engine is all right, I'm sure that she will speed O'er this road I need to go at the rate of a cannonball And when I blow for the stockyard gate I'm sure they'll hear my call Up the road she darted, against the rocks she crashed Upside-down the engine turned, poor Georgie's breast it smashed His head was against the firebox door, the flames were rolling high I'm glad I was born for an engineer, on the C&O road to die The doctor said to Georgie, my darling boy, be still Your life may yet be saved if it is God's blessed will Oh, no, said Georgie, that will not do, I want to die so free I want to die for the engine I love, one hundred and forty-three The doctor said to Georgie, your life cannot be saved Murdered upon the railroad and laid in a lonesome grave His face was covered up with blood, his eyes you could not see And the very last words poor Georgie said was nearer, my God, to Thee Spaw....I have some other questions though myself.....too late at night now but I'll be back. |
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04 Apr 07 - 02:52 AM (#2015880) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Joe Offer I'm glad you posted this one, Mrr. I hadn't heard of it, and it's certainly a significant song. Harry Smith selected it for his Anthology of American Folk Music. In his Long Steel Rail, Norm Cohen devotes 13 pages to The Wreck on the C & O / Engine 143. Cohen says more than 70 versions have been collected by folklorists. Far be it from me to question Mrrzy's or Spaw's transcriptions, but here's Cohen's transcription of the Carter Family version:
(As recorded by the Carter Family) Along came the FFV, the swiftest on the line, Running o'er the C&O road just twenty minutes behind; Running into Souville, headquarters on the line, Receiving her strict orders from a station just behind. Georgie's mother came to him with a bucket on her arm, Saying, "My darling son, be careful how you run; For many a man has lost his life in trying to make lost time, And if you run your engine right, you'll get there just on time." Up the road she darted, against the rock she crushed, Upside down the engine turned and Georgie's breast did smash; His head was against the firebox door, the flames were rolling high, "I'm glad I was born for an engineer to die on the C&O Road." The doctor said to Georgie, "My darling boy, be still, Your life may yet be saved, if it is God's blessed will." "Oh, no," said George, "that will not do, I want to die so free, I want to die for the engine I love, One Hundred and Forty Three." The doctor said to Georgie, "Your life cannot be saved." Murdered upon a railroad, and laid in a lonesome grave, His face was covered up with blood, his eyes you could not see, And the very last words poor Georgie said was, "Nearer My God To Thee." I verified Cohen's lyrics with the 1929 Carter Family recording, and Cohen and I agree, botched rhymes and all. Perhaps the differences in Mrr's transcription came from Joan Baez. Note that the Carter recording leaves out the second verse that Spaw posted - and that verse is the one that explains who "Georgie" was. Spaw's version has two verses not in the Carter or Kossoy versions. -Joe- Oh, and here's a post from another thread:
Thread #20196 Message #209648
Didn't see this one in the dB so here it is. I know Joan Baez sang it, I can't remember which album (same as Once I knew a pretty girl), and I never knew who wrote it. These are the words I hear... Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry on this song: Wreck on the C & O, The [Laws G3]DESCRIPTION: George Alley, a railroad engineer, is warned by his mother not to drive too fast. But George wants to set a speed record. As his train speeds, it runs into a rock from a landslide and is wrecked. George is killed; his mother gets to say "I told you so"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1913 (Railroad Man's Magazine, according to Cohen) KEYWORDS: wreck train death mother railroading worker warning crash HISTORICAL REFERENCES: Oct 23, 1890 - Death of engineer George Alley when the FFV train on the Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad was wrecked by a landslide near Hinton, West Virginia FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE,So) REFERENCES (22 citations): Laws G3, "The Wreck on the C & O" Cohen-LSRail, pp. 183-196, "The Wreck on the C & O/Engine 143" (3 texts plus a reproduction of a broadside, 2 tunes; also an item, "There's Many a Man Been Murdered in Luzon," which appears related and may influence the date of this song) Cohen-AFS1, pp. 200-201, "The Wreck on the C & O" (1 text) Carey-MarylandFolkloreLife, pp. 58-59, "The Wreck of the C. and O." (1 text) Randolph 682, "The Wreck on the C. & O." (2 texts, 2 tunes) BrownSchinhanIV 339, "The F. F. V. The Wreck of No. 4" (1 short text, 1 tune) Morris, #54, "The Wreck of the C and O" (1 text) Moore-Southwest 160, "Georgie Allen" (1 text, 1 tune) Warner 179, "The Wreck on the C & O" (1 text, 1 tune) Shellans, pp. 60-61, "The F. F. V." (1 text, 1 tune) Thomas-Makin', pp. 115-116, (no title) (1 fragmented text) Asch/Dunson/Raim, p. 62 "Engine 143" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-AFSB, pp. 31-34, "The Wreck on the C. & O. (The Death of Jack Hinton)" (1 text, 1 tune) JHCox 47, "The Wreck on the C. & O." (6 texts plus mention of 5 more; 2 tunes) Gainer, pp. 116-117, "THe Wreck on the C. & O." (1 text, 1 tune) Boette, pp. 71-72, "A Wreck on the C & O" (1 text, 1 tune) Lyle-Scalded, pp. 34-49, "The Wreck on the C & O" (2 texts, 1 tune, plus semi-related poetry) Botkin-SoFolklr, p. 725, "The Wreck on the C. & O." (1 text, 1 tune) Botkin-RailFolklr, p. 451, "The Wreck on the C&O" (1 text, 1 tune) Sandburg, p. 371, "There's Many a Man Killed on the Railroad" (1 text, 1 tune, a fragment with only the "There's man been killed on the railroad" stanza, which could be from this, or "Talmadge Osborne," or others) Silber-FSWB, p. 100 "Engine 143" (1 text) DT 635, ENGIN143* Roud #255 RECORDINGS: Carter Family, "Engine 143" (Victor V-40089, 1929; Montgomery Ward M-4743, 1935; Bluebird B-6223, 1937; on AAFM1, RRinFS) Duke Clark, "The Wreck of the F. F. & V." (Superior 2687, 1931) Vernon Dalhart, "Wreck of the C & O #5" (OKeh 45102, 1927) Austin Harmon, "George Allen" (AFS 2916 A, 1939; on LC61) Bradley Kincaid, "Wreck on the C & O Road" (Gennett 6823/Champion 15710 [as Dan Hughey]/Supertone 9350, 1929; Champion 45098/Melotone [Canada] 45057, 1935) George Reneau, "The C & O" (Vocalion 14897, 1924) (Vocalion 5050, 1927) Charles Lewis Stine, "The Wreck of the C & O" (Columbia 15027-D, 1925; Harmony 5145-H, c. 1930) Ernest V. Stoneman, "Wreck of the C & O" (Edison 51823, 1926) (CYL: Edison [BA] 5198, prob. 1926), "The Wreck on the C & O" (OKeh 7011, 1925) Annie Watson, "The F. F. V." (on ClassRR) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Brave Engineer" (subject) cf. "The Death of Talmadge Osborn" (floating lyrics) cf. "The Fatal Run" (lyrics) ALTERNATE TITLES: The FFV NOTES [299 words]: Of the two songs about wrecks on the C & O (the other is "The C. & O. Wreck"), this one is the better known and probably older. Many versions have a chorus (not found in the Digital Tradition version), "Many's a man's been murdered by the railroad / And laid in his lonesome grave" (e.g. this chorus occurs in five of Cox's six texts). - RBW Oh dear, this gets confusing. "Many a man's been murdered by the railroad" is an ending bridge from "The Fate of Talmadge Osborne." And it shows up here too.... - PJS Just to add to the fun, Roy Harvey recorded a song, "The Brave Engineer," probably about the same accident. Roud lumps them, probably because Lyle lists them in the same entry. But I would say that they are clearly different songs. Cox supplies many further details about this song. According to his report, George Alley was thirty when he died, and already had four children. He lived for five hours after the wreck. Reportedly the fireman did jump from the engine, and survived. Cohen has an extensive discussion of the song, noting that it has many errors in the text (e.g. he shows a photo of Alley, who had straight dark hair, not golden and not curly). He theorizes that the song was composed some years after the event, when memories were fading. It strikes me as at least as likely that the song is a modification of an older item, with the errors being holdovers from that piece. In many versions of the song, the engineer is not George Alley but George Allen. I would suspect this is simply an error of hearing, "Allen" being a more common name than "Alley," but Lyle (who, like Cohen, has extensive notes about the song, including a photo of Alley and several of the wreck) thinks it may have floated in from a 1933 wreck in which an engineer named George Allen was killed. - RBW Last updated in version 4.3 File: LG03 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2018 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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04 Apr 07 - 03:28 AM (#2015890) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Joe Offer In the CD booklet for the Tradition CD, Bowling Green: The Kossoy Sisters with Erik Darling, the notes say the Kossoy Sisters learned the song from a 1927 recording by the Carter Family. More from the notes:
Fast Flying VESTIBULE???? Cohen says the official name of the FFV was Fast Flying Virginian, but it has several nicknames, including First Families of Virginia, Fuller's First Venture, and Fast Flying Vestibule. -Joe- |
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04 Apr 07 - 03:57 AM (#2015896) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: John MacKenzie I learned 'Running into Siouxville town, headquarters on the line.' Giok |
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04 Apr 07 - 12:39 PM (#2016257) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: dick greenhaus Also see Georgie on the IRT, a youthful indiscretion by someone who grew up to be a very fine mystery writer |
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04 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM (#2016603) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Mrrzy Thank you for finding that old post, it has all my mondegreens! The lyrics i posted up top here came from somewhere on the Internet; the older ones were my memories. But I have just gotten some old Joan Baez Vanguard records on CD, and all of a sudden, not only wasn't it a steel road, but it was the same road he died on... so I had to run to Google and find what I thought were the right ones. Thanks! Also, is this a true story? Why do they say "murdered" - did someone put the rock there on purpose? |
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04 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM (#2016633) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Bill D well..it IS in the DB as "The Wreck on the C&O" a search on "143" finds it. You simply cannot assume titles...no matter what Joan Baez sings...*grin* |
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04 Apr 07 - 07:30 PM (#2016693) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Mrrzy Thanks, I did search both the forum and the trad, and didn't find it. Don't think I searched by title but I don't remember what I *did* search under... So, is this a love story after all? I had it filed separately from the usual train wreck love stories in my brain, because of how few verses Joan Baez actually sang. So beautifully. What a voice, even on vinyl. |
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04 Apr 07 - 08:37 PM (#2016756) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: catspaw49 I grew up a railroad kid, my Dad an engineer on the Pennsy, so these songs are favorites of mine. I have played and sung this one (badly) since I was in college with some question about what was what. Specifically, where is the headquarters on the linearound Hinton? I can't come up with anything that sounds like Seville or Sooville or anything else......but I'll keep looking now. As to "FFV"........Well laugh all you want but the train was the FAST FLYING VESTIBULE originally and would have ben known as such at the time of the accident. I found the following article from the time on a website: Wreck on the C&O Monroe Watchman October 30, 1890 Accident to the Vestibule This morning, as the east bound vestibule train was going round a curve near the mouth of Greenbrier river, it ran into a rock that had fallen from the cliff, and the engine, tender, baggage car and postal car were derailed, the baggage car and tender going over embankment. Three of the train men were injured, on of them fatally, but none of the passengers were hurt. The injured are: Engineer Geo. Alley, of Clifton Forge, left arm broken in two places, right leg broken, and terribly scalded. He died at 11 o'clock this morning. Fireman Lewis Withrow, of Hinton, badly scalded on the arms, neck and side. Fireman S. Foster, of Staunton, badly bruised. Foster was an extra fireman on his way home. The passengers had a narrow escape as but for the slackening of the train's speed at the curve, all the coaches would have gone over the embankment into the river. The railroad company should have extra watchmen at the points of the road where land slips are likely to occur, in such weather as we had last night, and perhaps some of these costly accidents might be avoided. - Hinton Independent This one also answers the questions about the fireman. Withrow was the regular fireman and was scalded in the wreck. Foster was deadheading home to Staunton which also means the train was running west to east so look west of Hinton for Seville or what-the-hell-ever it is. Hopefully all of you are smarter than I am because the article SAYS the EASTBOUND TRAIN..............Geeziz am I a dumbass or what? LOL (answer is not "or what") Spaw |
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04 Apr 07 - 09:05 PM (#2016790) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: catspaw49 SEWELL!!!! Well that answered that. AND YOU CAN'T FIND IT TODAY BECAUSE IT'S A GHOST TOWN!!say "BOO" and click here Spaw |
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04 Apr 07 - 09:08 PM (#2016799) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: catspaw49 BTW, here's a good and zoomable Chessie Track Map Spaw |
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04 Apr 07 - 09:16 PM (#2016811) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: masato sakurai See also Katie Letcher Lyle, Scalded to Death by the Steam: Authentic Stories of Railroad Disasters and Ballads That Were Written About Them (Algonquin Books of Chapel Hill, 1988), pp. 34-49 ("The Wreck on the C & O"). |
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04 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM (#2016855) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Clifton Forge newspaper also said that No. 4 was eastbound- "As the vestibule train was coming east Thursday morning it ran into a slide near Don, a short distance east of Hinton." The train was coming from Sewell (one of those signs you see out of a RR window, but not noticeable as a town), 40 miles west of Hinton. Hinton is a wide spot on the road, on Hwy 33 (Rawley Pike). Staunton is SW of Hinton. Was Foster going or coming from Staunton? Is the story about him 'deadheading home to Staunton' incorrect? The detail is not important to the story or the song, but it twiggles the brain. Clifton Forge had a large maintenance facility for the C. & O. The rail line runs about NNE-SSW rather than E-W in this region. |
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04 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM (#2016860) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Q (Frank Staplin) Looking at the map Catspaw posted, I got that lost feeling. Glad I never rode the C. & O. |
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04 Apr 07 - 10:22 PM (#2016871) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: catspaw49 Thanks for the fine posts Q. Hinton is west and just a wee bit south of Staunton, not the other way around. That may have been your map problem. The FFV was headed east toward Staunton so it only makes sense that Foster was going home, although as you rightly point out, the term "deadheading" can apply when travelling without working in either direction. My best guess is he was headed home possibly due to a crew shuffle on the Board or he had "outlawed" although that rarely was enforced back in those times....far more after the unions became stronger. Spaw |
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04 Apr 07 - 10:25 PM (#2016874) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: GUEST,Dave Hunt From Joe - above - 'As an aside, I couldn't find the thread where how to type accents was explained, can anyone help with that? ' Try http://french.about.com/library/bl-accents.htm - that should do the job! Dave Hunt |
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04 Apr 07 - 10:55 PM (#2016896) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Q (Frank Staplin) Going from a map on the internet, Hinton was located on Hwy 33; Staunton was located SW of this hwy on the Nat. Geographic Atlas. Most confusin! Wackipedia type errors by one or t'other, probably. |
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05 Apr 07 - 04:31 AM (#2017023) Subject: Add Version: The Wreck on the C& O (Engine 143) From: Joe Offer In Long Steel Rail Norm Cohen says he had a hard time finding a "complete" original version of this song, since there are so many versions. This version was printed in Railroad Man's Magazine in 1913, and may be the earliest text. THE WRECK ON THE C. AND O. Along came the F.F.V., the fastest on the line, A running on the C. and O road, thirty minutes behind time, As she passed the Sewalls it was quarters on the line; And they received new orders to make up some lost time. CHORUS Many man's been murdered by the railroad, railroad, Many man's been murdered by the railroad and lain in his lonesome grave. When she arrived at Hinton the engineer was there, His name was Georgie Alley, with bright and golden hair, His fireman, Jackie Dickerson, was standing by his side, Waiting to get orders, both in the cab to ride. Georgie's mother came to him with a basket on her arm, Saying 'georgie dear, my darling son, be careful how you rUn Many a poor man's lost his life trying to make up all lost time, But if you hold your engine right, you'll get there just on time,' 'Oh, mother, I know your advice is good, to the letter I'll take heed, I know my engine is all right, I know that she will speed; It's over this road I mean to fly with speed unknown to all, And when I blow for the stock-yard gates they'll surely hear my call.' Georgie stepped into his cab, the throttle he did pull, Off the engine darted like a fire in angry wool. It's o'er this road I mean to fly with speed unknown to all, And when I blow for Big Bend tunnel they'll surely hear my call.' Georgie said to his fireman, 'Jack, a little more extra steam, I mean to pull old No. 4 the fastest you ever seen. I mean to pull her through, my boy, with speed unknown to all, And when I blow for Clifton Forge they'll surely hear my call.' Georgie said to his fireman, 'Jack, a rock ahead I see! I know that death is waiting there to grab both you and me. From this cab now you must leap, your darling life to save; I want you to be an engineer when I'm sleeping in my grave.' Oh, no, George, I will not go, I want to die with you. 'Oh, no, Jack I'll die for both me and you.' From the cab poor Jack did fly, New River it was high, And as he kissed his hand to George old No. 4 flew by. On the engine darted and against the rock she crashed, Upside down the engine turned, her tender body mashed, His head against the fire-box the burning flames rolled o'er, 'I am glad I was born an engineer to die on 44.' Georgie's mother came to him, saying 'Son, what have you done?' 'Too late, too late, mother dear, my race is almost run, But if I had a local train, the truth to you I'll tell, I would run her into Clifton Forge, or drop her into hell,' The doctor said to Georgie, 'My darling son be still, Your precious life may yet be saved if it be God's blessed will.' 'Oh, no,' said Georgie, 'I want to die, I am ready now to go; I want to die with the engine I love, and that's old 44.' from Long Steel Rail, by Norm Cohen |
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05 Apr 07 - 12:25 PM (#2017371) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Charley Noble "Many man's been murdered by the railroad" is most likely an accusation directed against the railway management for insisting that the train make up for "lost time," to go faster than usual and thus be more difficult to stop in an emergency situation such as Georgie encountered. Nice notes to this old favorite. I always wondered what "FFV" referred to. No one seemed to know. Charley Noble |
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05 Apr 07 - 02:13 PM (#2017492) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 From: Q (Frank Staplin) The version from the 1913 "Railroad Mans Magazine" (Joe Offer) and the 1915 version from Cox are very similar. Cox also printed versions with the 'murder' chorus, collected in 1915-1916. The first versions were printed some 20-25 years after the accident. The author(s) remain(s) unidentified. Cohen (Long Steel Rail) presents pretty good evidence that the song was going the rounds in 1905-1907, but nothing definite was found from the 1890's. Cohen suggests that the errors in the song perhaps suggest that it appeared some years after the accident and details had been forgotten. The songs have George Alley's hair as golden, but it was black and straight. A photograph of Alley was included by Cohen in "Long Steel Rail," showing an attractive young man with neatly cut dark hair and mustache. He was thirty years old when the accident occurred. The Carter version has Alley's last words as "Nearer my God to thee," this may have been taken from the ten cent broadside "Wreck on the C. & O. Railroad at Clifton's Ford, Va.;" "as sung by Bailey Brisco, with Dakota Jack, the Cow Boy Medicine Man (reproduced in Long Steel Rail). Perhaps mentioned above, the first recording was made by George Reneau, Aeolian Vocalion, New York, Sept. 16, 1924. |
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05 Apr 07 - 03:29 PM (#2017564) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Mrrzy I thought Scalded to death by the steam was the other train wreck song, about Monroe, Virginia and getting from Lynchburg to Danville? Knew that one, and when I moved to VA, I was amazed - i had assumed all the town names were fictional! |
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05 Apr 07 - 10:07 PM (#2017939) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Padre Hinton is NOT on route 33 - it is on WV state route 20 - if you go there today, take I-64 and get off at the Sandstone exit - follow rt 20 over the mountain (along the New River) and there you are. The C&O called the section between Hinton and Handley (going West toward Cincinatti) the New River Subdivision. From Hinton going East to Clifton Forge was the Alleghany Subdivision. Most of the branches ging into the coalfields of WV were in the New River Subdivision. The stations on the Alleghany SD were: Clifton Forge Covington (where the Hot Springs SD ran up to the Homestead resort) Alleghany Tuckahoe White Sulphur Springs (Home of the Greenbrier resort) Whitcomb (junction with the Greenbrier SD to Marlinton and Durbin) Ronceverte Alderson AD Cabin Hilldale MX Cabin Hinton On the New River SD the stations were Hinton CW Cabin RK Cabin Sandstone Meadow Creek (where the Nicholas, Fayaette & Greenbrier ran up to Swiss to meet the NYC's old Kanawha and Michigan) Quinnamont Prince McKendrie CS Cabin Thurmond Sewell Keeney's Creek Fayette Hawks Nest MA Cabin Cotton Hill GU Cabin Gauley Deepwater (where the Virginian Railway met the C&O) Mt Carbon Handley Padre |
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05 Apr 07 - 10:37 PM (#2017966) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Q (Frank Staplin) Thanks, Padre. That clears up the geography. |
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06 Apr 07 - 10:25 AM (#2018229) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Mrrzy But *is* it a love song? |
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06 Apr 07 - 03:46 PM (#2018537) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Scoville No. Well, possibly between engineer and train, but not in the usual sense. Even at that, it's more of a cautionary, like "Wreck of Old 97". |
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06 Apr 07 - 11:56 PM (#2018862) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST His mother loved her darling Georgie Padre |
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07 Apr 07 - 03:16 PM (#2019265) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,Jim If Georgie`s head was touching the firebox door of an engine that had been running at full speed, he wouldn`t be saying, "I`m proud to be born for an engineer on the C&O Road to die," he`d more likely be saying,"Aaaaaaaaaaaugh!!!" if he could speak at all. Those things got HOT. |
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07 Apr 07 - 06:30 PM (#2019400) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Fortunato Padre, 'spaw, Q, et al. thanks for the notes on the song. Especially 'Sewell', I've been faking that word nearly 30 years. Nice to know the correct town and thanks, to Tom and 'spaw where it was on the line and what's left of it. Fast Flying Vestibule it is and was. cheers, all, this was rather like the old days on the mudcat. chance |
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07 Apr 07 - 07:33 PM (#2019421) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: catspaw49 Hi Chance......Just logged on tonite myself.......and I couldn't agree more. The magic is often still here but sometimes it gets awful hard to find the rabbit. Spaw |
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07 Apr 07 - 07:46 PM (#2019426) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Fortunato Hey 'spaw, yep. I was beginning to think the rabbit died. glad you're still out there. cheers, chance |
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17 Aug 10 - 02:00 AM (#2966901) Subject: Origins: Wreck on the C&O From: Janie Wreck on the C&O is in the DT. I stumbled across this bit in the book, Mountaineer Jamboree: Country Music in West Virginia by Ivan B. Tribe "Some seventeen years after the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway's completion, a brave young locomotive engineer named George Alley sic met his death within a few miles of the tunnel where John Henry achieved folk immortality. On October 23, 1890, Alley's train, the F.F.V., ran into a landslide three miles from Hinton. According to some stories, a Negro who in the Hinton roundhouse put together the essentials of a ballad that has become known by such titels as "The Wreck on the C. & O.," "George Alley,(sic) " and Engine 143." I can't find where he sites his sources. Along came the F.F.V., the fastest on the line, Came running o'er the C. &O. Road, just twenty minutes behind; Came running into Sewell, lies quartered on the line, And then received strict orders for Hinton, away behind. When she got to Hinton, her engineer was there, Georgie Allen was his name, with blues eyes and curly hair; His fireman, Jack Dickinson, was standing by his side, Waiting for his orders, and in his cab to ride. Georgie's mother came to him with a basket on her arm, Saying, "Now, my darling son, be careful how you run; For many a man has lost his life trying to gain lost time, And if you run your engine right, you'll get there yet on time." "Mother, I know your advice is good' to your letter I'll take heed; I know my engine is all right, and I know that she will speed; And o'er this road I mean to fly with a speed unknown to all, And when I blow for the Big Bend Tunnel, they will surely hear my call." Georgie said to his pal, "Jack, just a little more steam; I mean to pull old No. 4 the fastest ever seen' And o'er this road I mean to fly with a speed unknown to all, And when I blow for the Stock Yard Gate, they will surely hear my call." Georgie said to his pal, "Jack, a rock ahead I see; I know that death is waiting to grasp both you and me; So from this cab you must fly, your darling life to save, For I want you to be an engineer when I am sleeping in my grave." "O no!" said Jack, "that will not do; I want to die with you." "O no!" said Georgie, "that will not do; I'll die for me and you." So from the cab, poor Jack did fly; the river it was high, And as he kissed his hand to George, old No. 4 flew by. Up the road she darted; against the rock she crashed; Upside down the engine turned, upon his breast it crashed; His head upon the firebox door, the burning flames rolled o'er; "I'm glad I was born an engineer to die on the C. & O. Road." Georgie's mother came to him, "My son what have you done?" "Too late, too late my doom is almost run." The doctor said to Georgie, "My son, you must lie still; Your precious life may yet be saved, if it be God's holy will." "O no, doctor, O no! I want to die so free; I want to die with my engine, old 143." His last words were, "Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee, Nearer, my God, to Thee, nearer to Thee." Here is a link to the Carter Family version. Engine 143 |
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17 Aug 10 - 02:45 AM (#2966912) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Joe Offer Hi, Janie- I hope you don't mind that I moved you over here. Your version looks very much like the 1915 version that Q said was the oldest one he came across, but with some interesting differences. -Joe- |
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29 Sep 10 - 11:52 AM (#2996131) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: mayomick Another of my theories down the tube . Engine 143 driver George Alley wasn't killed because of mixed orders apparantly .A rock had landed on the tracks ahead and he couldn't stop the train. Some fascinating stuff on the 143 song on another thread I'll switch tracks over to there . May I take this opportunity to apologise for any delays caused ..... |
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29 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM (#2996196) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: catspaw49 Ya' know............After all these years, I'm launching a quest to find some damn disaster song where the main character is an asshole. I mean a non-heroic figure. Ol' Georgie in FFV was certainly an asshole but portrayed as the hero. All these guys always seem to be heroic. Did anyone ever tell the truth in these songs? Take Georgie.......He argues with his Fireman over who should jump and Georgie bravely stays. What a fuckin' idiot! There isn't a thing you can do that requires you to stay on an engine...... even back then!! I'm the son of an Engineman and I knew dozens of them over the years and I will tell you true that not one swinging dick in the bunch would have stayed on that engine. In the modern day the procedure would be to throttle down and put the air in Emergency......past that point not much else. Its not like you can steer the thing away in a different direction! In one of these songs, the truth is that the engineer fell out of the cab and hit his head on a rail. The song has him courageously croaking with his "hand on the throttle" or some other nonsense. So if you run across some crash ditty where the engineer/captain/pilot got the hell out instead of buying the farm like a numbnuts, let me know. Spaw |
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29 Sep 10 - 02:07 PM (#2996244) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Q (Frank Staplin) A number of these old songs are fictionized as well. For truth (or an approximation thereof) go to the investigative reports. In the Wreck on the C & O, there are several errors. The fireman jumped out on the side opposite the river; perhaps George Alley chose taking his chances staying with engine no. 134 rather than jumping down a steep incline, or he froze in indecision. In any case, the conversation is fictional. |
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29 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM (#2996258) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: catspaw49 Also Q, if you notice, in most cases these "brave men" are in the wrong as well, operating in an unsafe manner and against regulations. But folk hero types are apt to run along those lines from Jesse James to Pretty Boy Floyd. LOL.....I guess the usual day to day dreary old existence don't make too good a folk song unless you're maybe Stephen Foster! Spaw |
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29 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM (#2996287) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Q (Frank Staplin) Just sing and enjoy. The song's the thing. |
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23 Aug 11 - 05:14 AM (#3211278) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,CoriSCapnSkip Wow, GREAT THREAD! This was my favorite song at 8, 9, 10 years old. I learned the Joan Baez version and I believe sang "Senal Road." I wasn't sure if that was the name of the road or some old-fashioned word for "scenic." I don't think I knew "C & O" till college with the Kossoy sisters version. Anyhow, after listening to theirs recently I decided to find out if "Georgie" was real. So thrilled to learn this was an actual occurrence, shortly before my grandmother was born! What variations on the town spelling! I'd NEVER had guessed "Sewell." I always sang "Suville" and didn't see that among the many here. Sad to say, I can't find his grave on findagrave.com. The two George Alleys in West Virginia have the wrong dates, and the one who died in 1890 died in July in Maine, not in October in West Virginia. Perhaps someone from the area could locate and post the grave and we could all leave him notes and virtual flowers! |
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23 Aug 11 - 05:34 AM (#3211286) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,CoriSCapnSkip P. S. George Alley is buried at Greenbrier Baptist Church cemetery in Alderson and although 65 records from this cemetery have been added at findagrave his is not among them. This needs to be fixed! |
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23 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM (#3211404) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,Don Wise The first verse, as I remember it sung and recorded by Alex Campbell: Along came the FFV, the fastest on the line Running o'er the C&O road, just twenty minutes behind Running into Serville/Souville/Seville TOWN, headquarters on the line Receiving her strict orders from the station just behind Don |
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23 Aug 11 - 03:13 PM (#3211580) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,CoriSCapnSkip Well, you can see why no one would attempt to sing "Sewell." If it sounds like it's spelled, it doesn't exactly roll of the tongue. |
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23 Aug 11 - 07:41 PM (#3211726) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,mayomick I think the tune is the same as the Sinking of the Fanad which is in Sam Henry's book of old Irish songs. Catspaw made a point about songs making heroes out of men who were " operating in an unsafe manner and against regulations". Listening to Missippi John Hurt's version of Casey Jones I get the impression that the song may be mocking the "noble engineer"- especially in Mrs Casey's rather callous reponse to her husband's death : When Mrs Casey ,when she got the news She was sitin' in the kitchen lacin' up her shoes G'wan little children, g'wan she said Go on into town see if your daddy's dead Mamma oh mama , how can it be My daddy he got killed out on the ol' IC Hush little children , hush she said We gonna draw pension now your daddy's dead. |
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23 Aug 11 - 11:56 PM (#3211821) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: GUEST,CoriSCapnSkip According to Mrs. Casey Jones, the original ballad was all right but some terrible things were done later. She spent much of her life refuting the slanders in subsequent versions. http://www.trainweb.org/caseyjones/song.html I wonder if the same person who wrote the Ballad of Casey Jones wrote the one about the wreck on the C & O and what George Alley's family thought of it if anything. Since his children were quite young at the time it's likely over the years some of them heard it. Although this source lists the train as the "Fast Flying Virginian," and all others name it the "Vestibule," it contains some interesting details. http://www.wvculture.org/history/timetrl/ttoct.html Fascinatingly, almost every affecting aspect of the ballad is inaccurate, while all the most touching details of the real story are omitted from the ballad. --The ballad has George's mother warning him about excessive speed. According to the Wikipedia article, his mother was no longer living at this time. --The ballad has George racing the train. In real life, the train struck a rock George didn't see until too late as it appeared after rounding a curve. The only way to tell if the train was running at excessive speed would be to know what time it left the previous town and when the accident occurred, then calculate miles per hour and determine if this was too fast for conditions. --George likely made none of the statements attributed to him. Not only, as Guest Jim pointed out, was he trapped in a burning engine, but far from expressing the ballad's noble and melancholy request to die free on the railroad for love of his engine, George spent his conscious moments asking for his family. This would not seem to indicate an inclination to leave them. --In real life, George Alley was a hero. When he saw the rock, he had time to bail and save his own life, but it would have meant leaving the train to speed toward the rock, derailing and throwing cars and passengers into the river. Instead, George stayed to slow the train, saved the passengers, and ended up the only fatality--not so much as mentioned in the ballad! Strangely, it remains a great ballad. |
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24 Jan 14 - 02:30 PM (#3595332) Subject: RE: Origins: Engine 143 / Wreck on the C & O From: Q (Frank Staplin) With the title "The F. F. V., Herbert Shellans included a version in his book, "Folk Songs of the Blue Ridge Mountains. The song sung by Miss. Ruby Vass of Fancy Gap, VA, from a notebook of Norman Lee Vass, entry "around the year 1912." The version is much the same as those posted here, but the last two verses are an interesting variation. George's Mother came to him, Saying, My son, what have you done?" "Too late, too late, my mother dear, My race is almost run. But if I had a local train, The truth to you I'll tell; I'd run her into Clifton Forge Or drop her in to Hell." The Dr. says to Georgie, "My darling boy be still. Your life may yet be saved If it be God's Blessed will." "Oh, no, Dr., I want to die. I'm ready now to go. I want to die with engine I love, And that's old forty-four." With musical score, pp. 60-61. Herbert Shellans, 1968, "Folk Songs of the Blue Ridge Mountains," Oak Publications. |
