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23 Apr 07 - 05:29 PM (#2033760) Subject: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Barry Finn I used to sing this many years ago & now can't seem to remember if I've got all the words & if I've got them right. Surprisingly I couldn't find it in the DT of in any threads. This is what I can remember. Here's me sheepcook & me blackdog, I give 'em to you Here's me bag & me budgie I bid 'em all adieu Here's me blackdog & me sheepchook I leave 'em all behind Fine Flora, fine Flora, you proved so unkind Unto my dear Diana these words I did say Tomorrow we'll be married love, tomorrow is the day Oh no my dear Willie, my age is to young One day till our wedding love is one day to soon I'll go into service if the day ain't to late To wait on a fine lady it is my intent An' when into service a year or two more It's then we'll be married love an' we'll settle down A little while later a letter did say That my dear Diana had changed her mind She said that she'd lead such a contrary life She said that she could never be a young sheperd's wife Repeat the first verse I'm now longer sure if I've got the right words or not and what is a "budgie" I have a much longer version from Lucy Broadword & J Fuller Maitland's "English Country Songs" (1893) but it's not the same & it doesn't seem to sing the same either. Anyone have any background on this too? Thanks Barry |
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23 Apr 07 - 05:42 PM (#2033775) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: GUEST,Shimrod Your version appears to be very similar to that recorded by Ewan MacColl on his LP, 'The Manchester Angel' (Topic 12T147, 1966) - which, incidentally, is my favourite Folk record of all time! And 'Sheepcrook and Black Dog' is my favourite track - it doesn't really get any better than that (in my opinion, that is). It's also available on a later CD - 'The Real MacColl' (Topic TSCD 463,1993). MacColl's version was based on that that he and Peggy Seeger recorded from the Dorset Gypsy woman, Caroline Hughes, in the early 1960s. And it's not 'budgie' but 'budget'! This was probably some sort of bag which held the shepherd's lunch. |
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23 Apr 07 - 05:43 PM (#2033777) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Peace Steeleye Span's lyrics. |
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23 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM (#2033778) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Peace Sheep Crook and Black Dog--another version.^^ |
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23 Apr 07 - 06:44 PM (#2033826) Subject: Lyr. Add: My Flora and I From: Q (Frank Staplin) There are several forms to this song. The following from Sam Henry: Lyr. Add: MY FLORA AND I O, who is so happy, so happy as I, As I and my Flora, my Flora and I? I'll go down to my Flora and unto her say, When will we get married, love, when is the day? Out comes the fair one, saying, "The day is not come. Besides, noble shepherd, to wed I'm too young; I'll go first to service and then I'll return, And then we'll get married if love carries on." According to promise, to service she went, For to wait on this lady it was my intent, For to wait on this fair one, this fair lady gay, I call her my Flora and she calls me her ray. In a month or two after, a letter I sent, Two or three times for to show her intent, She sent back an answer; she lived a happy life, And she'd never intend to be a poor shepherd's wife. Ye gates and gate stiles, now I bid you adieu, My bottle and script I bestow unto you, My hook, crook and whistle to you I'll resign, Since this inconstant fair one has now changed her mind. For when I was young I was as red as a rose, But now I'm as pale as the lily that grows, Like the green leaves in winter I'm withered and gone; Do you see what I'm come to by the loving too young? With score, p. 390. "Sam Henry's Songs of the People," University of Georgia Press. Coll. Maud Houston (Coleraine), (w, m) James Kennedy (formerly Ratheane), learned from an old man in a quarry. Key G. Other names: The Inconstant Lover, (My) Flora and Me, Sheepcrook and Black Dog, The Unkind Shepherdess, (Young) Florio, The Young Shepherd. |
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24 Apr 07 - 03:46 AM (#2034082) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Fred McCormick It's a fairly common song, turning up mainly in England, N Ireland and Canada. The version in question was collected by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger about 1963 from Caroline Hughes of Dorset. For other versions consult Steve Roud's Folk Song sand Broadside Indexes at http://library.efdss.org/cgi-bin/textpage.cgi?file=aboutRoud&access=off . |
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24 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM (#2034117) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Surreysinger Barry: you said " I have a much longer version from Lucy Broadword & J Fuller Maitland's "English Country Songs" (1893)" It's actually Lucy BroadWOOD. " but it's not the same & it doesn't seem to sing the same either." Hardly surprising since its a completely different tune; the root of the song in both cases is, I think, "The Unfaithful Sheperdess", a broadside ballad (although I am sure that Malcolm will be along to correct or expand if necessary - grins-). It seems to have been very popular in Surrey and Sussex. Henry Burstow records the Unfaithful Sheperdess as being among the 400+ songs that he could sing from memory. Lucy collected her version from Mr Grantham, a retired illiterate carter living in Holmwood, near Dorking, who had been born in Sussex. The words and tune are very similar to those collected by Vaughan Williams about ten years later a few miles away, also in Surrey, and they are also extremely similar to a version which is sung today by Bob Lewis. The more well known version (presumably the one you quote) is of the tune and words sung by Steeleye Span, and also by Norma Waterson, who has recorded the version from Queen Caroline Hughes (with some slight amendments) |
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24 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM (#2034494) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: GUEST,Surreysinger (at work) |
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24 Apr 07 - 01:17 PM (#2034497) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: GUEST Oops - don't hit return if you haven't written anything!! (Think it's about time I left for home!)Meant to say ... memo to self to actually read previous post properly - Fred had, of course, mentioned Caroline Hughes' version! |
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24 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM (#2034498) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: GUEST,Surreysinger That's it - it's not my afternoon, is it? That last one was me... going home NOW!!! |
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26 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM (#2036783) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: Barry Finn Thanks all, I guess my memory's not that bad after all. I did have MacColl & Seeger's "Travellers' Songs From England & Scotland" And Sam Henry's "Songs of the People" but didn't think to check either of those as sources, DUH!. Thanks for leading me back to those. I ended up singing it Tuesday night at the Gloucester (Mass, US) session knowing that I did already have it. Thanks to everybody Barry |
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26 Apr 07 - 11:39 PM (#2036807) Subject: RE: Sheepcrook & Black Dog From: leeneia Shimrod is right about "budget." According to my dictionary, the oldest use is "a pouch or wallet, usually of leather." It goes all the way back to the Latin "bulga," but the Latin speakers had borrowed "bulga" from a Gaulish word. An ancient word, indeed. I like the song. Thanks for posting. |
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06 Aug 10 - 09:03 PM (#2959831) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: maple_leaf_boy The source that I have says that it originated in northern Derry. It's in "A Shepherd's Songbook." A song collection, I have been studying lately. |
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06 Aug 10 - 10:16 PM (#2959850) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: RTim I am amazed that I share this song with the late Barry Finn - not a song I would think he would sing. I have stopped singing this as I use the same (or similar) tune for another song - Beautiful Nancy. Tim Radford |
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07 Aug 10 - 08:01 PM (#2960327) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: maple_leaf_boy Is there sheet music for this song? I've looked on several sites with the alternate titles. I only found guitar chords for the Steeleye Span version. The songbook I mentioned only has the lyrics. |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM (#2966503) Subject: Lyr Add: SHEEP-CROOK AND BLACK DOG (Steeleye Span) From: Jim Dixon The lyrics at the beginning of this thread are full of misspellings and mondegreens. Copied from Reinhard Zierke's web site: SHEEP-CROOK AND BLACK DOG As sung by Steeleye Span CHORUS: Here's my sheep-crook and my black dog. I give it to you. Here's my bag and my budget. I bid it adieu. Here's my sheep-crook and my black dog. I leave them behind. Fine laurel, fine floral, you've proved all unkind. 1. All to my dear Dinah these words I did say, "Tomorrow we'll be married love, tomorrow is the days." "'Tis too soon dear Willy my age is too young, One day to our wedding is one day too soon." 2. "I'll go into service if the day ain't too late, Oh, to wait on a fine lady it is my intent, And when into service a year or two bound, It's then we'll get married and both settle down." 3. A little time after a letter was wrote, For to see if my dear Dinah had changed her mind. But she wrote that she'd lived such a contrary life, She said that she'd never be a young shepherd's wife. (CHORUS) |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:08 PM (#2966508) Subject: Lyr Add: SHEEP-CROOK AND BLACK DOG (Norma Waterson From: Jim Dixon Another version, copied from the same web site: SHEEP-CROOK AND BLACK DOG As sung by Norma Waterson I'll lay o'er the green branches although I am young. How dearly I loved my love! How sweetly she sang! Was there ever a young man in such a sorry state As me with my Flora, my laurel of late? All to my dear Flora these words I did say: "Tomorrow we'll be married, love. Tomorrow is our day." "Oh no, dearest William! My age it is too young. One day to our wedding is one day too soon. "For I'll go into service if the day ain't too late. I'll be apprenticed to a fine lady, it is my intent; And when into service for a year or two bound, It's then we'll get married, love, and I'll settle down." But a little while after a letter was wrote, All a-saying that Flora had changed her mind; And she said that she lived such a contrary life, She'd never be, she couldn't ever be, a young shepherd's wife. Here's me black dog. Here's me sheep crook. I will give unto you. Here's me bag and me budget. I will bid 'em all adieu. Here's me black dog and me sheep crook. I will leave 'em all behind, Since Flora, my laurel, you've proved so unkind. |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM (#2966513) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: MuddleC I sing the 'fine Flora' version, but the first and last chorus are on a totally different melody line than the narrative.... I like the idea of leaving her his budgie,... cracked me up ..'who's a pretty boy then?' |
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16 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM (#2966607) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Reinhard maple_leaf_boy, if you give me your mail address I'll send you four scanned pages of sheet music from the Steeleye Span Songbook. You can find my address in the bottom line of the webpage that Jim Dixon just mentioned. |
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29 Nov 12 - 04:55 PM (#3444511) Subject: Lyr Add: The Unkind Shepherdess From: Matthew Edwards The Roud Broadside Index indicates that versions of 'The Unkind Shepherdess' were printed in London by Pitts and by Catnach, and in Birmingham by Jackson, and by Whiting. The Index also cites a version printed by Swindells of Manchester, beginning "As I was a-walking one morning in Spring", amd another apparently by Kendrew of York with the first line "It was near a fountain where I sat alone" A copy of one the broadsides printed by Pitts can be seen on the Bodleian Ballads website The Unkind Shepherdess, and there is another copy at the National Library of Scotland (NLS) which can be viewed online. Here is the text copied from the NLS:- The Unkind Shepherdess I'LL spread these green branches all over her young, So well I do like my Flora so sweetly she sung, Was there ever a young man in so happy a state, As I with my Flora, my Flora so great. I'll go to my Flora and to her I'll say, We both will be married it wants but a day, One day says the farmer, and when that is come, For to marry so early my age is too young. We'll first go to service and when we return, We both will be married all in the next town, Will you go to service and leave me here to cry, O yes lovely shepherd, I will tell you for why. It happened so that to service she went, To wait on a lady it was her intent, Young Flora she met with a rich lady gay, Who clothed young Flora in costly array. Near a twelvemonth after a letter was sent, It was three or four lines to know her intent, She wrote that she lived such a contented life, That she never did intend to become a young shepherd's wife. These words and expressions did pierce like a dart, I'll pluck up my spirits and cheer up my heart, In hopes that she never will write so any more, But her answer has convinced me as many times before. My ewes and my lambs I will bid them adieu, My bagpipes and budget I will leave here with you, My shepherd's crook and black dog I will leave here behind, Since Flora dear Flora, has changed her mind. Printed by J Pitts (London), active c.1819-1844 |
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29 Nov 12 - 05:02 PM (#3444516) Subject: Lyr Add: My Flora and Me From: Matthew Edwards Several versions of this song were collected in Newfoundland in the 20th century by Maud Karpeles and Kenneth Peacock. Here is one collected by Peacock, and published in his book 'Songs of the Newfoundland Outports' (1965), and online in the GEST archive. My Flora and Me As sung by Arthur Nicolle, Rocky Harbour, Newfoundland, August 1958 As I roved out oh one evening in spring, To hear those birds whistle and the nightingales sing, Where the green fields and branches all covered with young, And the small birds around me so joyful they sung. Was there ever a young man so happy as me, So happy as Flora, my Flora and me? I will go to my Flora and this I will say: "When shall we get married? - pray mention the day." "To wed, gentle shepherd, my time is not come, To wed, gentle shepherd, my age is too young, I will first go to service till I'm twenty-one, And then we'll get married if love follows on." To fulfill her promise to service she went, To wait on a lady it was her intent, To wait on a lady, a rich lady gay, Young Flora was clothed in most costly array. The twelve-month being over, being over and spent, I wrote her a letter to hear her intent. The answer that she sent to me: 'Lead a long single life, For I never intend to be a poor shepherd's wife.' In reading those few lines it grieved my heart sore To think that my Flora could love me no more, To think that my Flora could be so unkind, Like a false-hearted lovyer she soon changed her mind. I wished I never knowed her, or she to know me, I wish I never loved her, or she to love me, My heart it's ensnared by her snowy-white breast, And I'm deeply wounded, and I can't take no rest. Oh once I was happy as a bud on a rose, And now I'm so pale as the lily that grows, Like a tree in yonder valley when the blooms are all gone, Don't you see what I'm come to by loving but one? To the green fields and branches we shall now bid adieu, Likewise to my Flora, she proved so untrue, Likewise to my Flora, she proved so unkind, Like a false-hearted lovyer she soon changed her mind. |
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30 Nov 12 - 12:42 PM (#3444869) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,leeneia |
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30 Nov 12 - 12:43 PM (#3444870) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,leeneia |
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30 Nov 12 - 12:48 PM (#3444874) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,leeneia "The Unkind Shepherdess" Huh? Nothing in the song indicates that she is a shepherdess. Nothing indicates that she has been leading him on or has promised him anything. She's just a young woman who wants more time to think and to grow before she marries. What's wrong with that? FYI - I too like the idea of the swain giving away his parakeet rather than his wallet. |
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30 Nov 12 - 01:00 PM (#3444883) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST "The Unkind Shepherdess" Huh? Nothing in the song indicates that she is a shepherdess. Just the title under which it was published. |
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05 Dec 12 - 03:19 PM (#3447625) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Matthew Edwards I did say earlier that I hoped to post the lyrics to 'Floro', as sung by Mrs Cassie Sheeran of Knockmore, Fermanagh which appeared on the cassette 'Here is a Health' - a collection of recordings from Fermanagh made by Seán Corcoran. However, thanks to Liberty Boy, I've found a superb YouTube recording of Rosie Stewart singing Floro, in a version very similar to the one sung by Mrs Sheeran. Matthew |
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05 Dec 12 - 05:41 PM (#3447708) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie >> Nothing indicates that she has been leading him on or has promised >> Errmm .. oh yes she did. Read the words of "The Unkind Shepherdess" and you will see that she promises him that she will return to marry him when she returns from her stint in service ... but then turns round and goes back on her promise because she's living a cosy and contented life and doesn't want to be a poor shepherd's wife. In all my years of singing the song, she's always struck me as a rather shallow and fickle little thing! |
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06 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM (#3447971) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Brian Peters I remember a conversation with Bob Copper, in which he said: "What you have to remember is that, for many young women from the lower end of the scale, going into service represented the only chance they had of getting an education." In other words, not only does Flora find a degree of comfort in her new post, she has - relative to the agricultural working class, at least - become upwardly mobile. The shepherd boy is a part of her old life, and its small wonder she wants to move on. The way I read the song, her line about being too young for marriage is simply an excuse to avoid a future she doesn't particularly relish, even before the change in her circumstances. Meanwhile, is the shepherd boy ready to top himself by the end, or is he just planning to move to another area, to leave behind some bitter memories? A very moving song, for anyone who's felt the pain of rejection... |
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01 Mar 18 - 03:43 AM (#3908687) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,Doug The first line of the song says "I'll lay on the green branches" or "I'll spread the green branches." What's that about? |
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01 Mar 18 - 04:15 AM (#3908695) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,Gerry "One day to our wedding is one day too soon." Doesn't that mean she's fine with getting married in two days? |
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01 Mar 18 - 10:14 AM (#3908784) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Steve Gardham I'm due to do a full study on this song in the next few weeks for the forthcoming new book in the Marrow Bones series. The fact that there are at least 3 different printed versions in the early 19thc tells us that the song dates back to at least the late 18thc. The style and language are that of the London Pleasure Gardens like Vauxhall and Renelagh. The earliest dated version I have is by Robertson of Glasgow, 1802, but I have references from the 18thc in songsters. Even these vary. |
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01 Mar 18 - 12:06 PM (#3908811) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Vic Smith Brian Peters wrote ( in 2012!!! - six years to make a response) Meanwhile, is the shepherd boy ready to top himself by the end, or is he just planning to move to another area, to leave behind some bitter memories?Meanwhile, is the shepherd boy ready to top himself by the end, or is he just planning to move to another area, to leave behind some bitter memories? I sing a version that is cobbled together from three versions all recorded from Caroline Hughes (by Kennedy, MacColl and Peter Shepheard)- all different - and I can't remember which version I get the first line from but it is similar to the one that Norma Waterson (quoted above) sings except for the first line which goes:- I'll be spread under the green branches although I am young..... I take this to mean that the shepherd boy is going to commit suicide. People who had killed themselves were denied buried in consecrated Church graveyards and their families would often opt for cremation and then surreptitiously spread the ashes in the churchyard. |
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01 Mar 18 - 02:06 PM (#3908844) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Brian Peters Interesting, Vic. That actually makes more sense than the broadsides, which seem quite garbled. |
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01 Mar 18 - 02:09 PM (#3908847) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Steve Gardham What is probably the earliest version I have (later printed by Pitts and Catnach) from the 18thc 'Court of Apollo' songster, has the first line, 'I'll spread these green branches all over her young' I very much doubt this has any negative reference as the rest of the first stanza is explaining how happy he is at this stage. Here's the full stanza. I'll spread these green branches all over her young, So well I do like my love so sweetly she sung, Was there ever a young man in so happy a state, As I with my Flora, my Flora so great. There are all sorts of possibilities as to what the first line means. If it has been corrupted as often happens in both traditions it may mean nothing as it stands. It could well be that the person who supplied the first version to the printers heard it at the pleasure gardens and misheard something like what you have, Vic. All of the versions I have that have that first line have it as I give it above, no variation. It might become clearer when I've had chance to look at the other 2 variants. |
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01 Mar 18 - 02:12 PM (#3908848) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: The Sandman sad that Barry is no longer with us |
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01 Mar 18 - 03:15 PM (#3908857) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Brian Peters There are all sorts of possibilities as to what the first line means. If it has been corrupted as often happens in both traditions it may mean nothing as it stands. It could well be that the person who supplied the first version to the printers heard it at the pleasure gardens and misheard Yes, that's what I was wondering, Steve. Agreed about Barry Finn, Dick, he was a great bloke. |
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01 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM (#3908858) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Vic Smith Steve, Unless I have changed the words without realising (always a possibility, I suppose).... the last two lines of what I sing is - Was ever there a young man in such unhappy state, As me with my Flora, my Flora of late. But Caroline's versions present another difficulty; the second verse is the Sheepcrook & black dog one, the start of the third verse that I have from one of the three versions goes:- Unto my Dearest Dinah, these words I did say, and that is what I sing. The trouble is that the only recorded version that I actually have here is the Kennedy one. |
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01 Mar 18 - 03:44 PM (#3908871) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: RTim This is the version I got from the band - Rough Music (a very old Cassette tape) and it was sung by Richard Valentine - I don't know where the version comes from....?? I haven't sung it for years...tune is too like another song I now sing! SHEEPCROOK & BLACK DOG Here's me sheep-crook and me black dog, I give it to you. Here's me bag and me budget, I bid it adieu. Here's me sheep-crook and me black dog, I leave them behind. Fine laurel, fine floral, You've proved all unkind. All to my dear Dinah these words I did say, “Tomorrow we'll be married love, tomorrow is the day.” “'Tis too soon dear Willy my age is too young, One day to our wedding is one day too soon.” “It’s I'll go into service if the day ain't too late, Oh, to wait on a fine lady it is my intent, And when into service a year or two bound, It's then we'll get married and both settle down.” A little while after a letter was wrote, For to see if my dear Dinah had changed her mind. But she wrote that she'd lived such a contrary life, She said that she'd never be a young shepherd's wife. (Repeat first verse) Tim Radford |
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01 Mar 18 - 06:59 PM (#3908901) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: Steve Gardham I see looking back Matthew posted a Pitts version earlier. It's probably verbatim the pre 1819 version I have and the one in The Apollo Court. |
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17 Jun 19 - 07:06 AM (#3996767) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Sheep Crook and Black Dog (Ewan MacColl) From: GUEST,LCS "Budgie" is short for budgerigar, or parakeet. |
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