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15 May 07 - 03:59 PM (#2052676) Subject: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk Anyone got any tips on how best to do this? |
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15 May 07 - 04:04 PM (#2052680) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Jean(eanjay) I bought a sock organizer from Lakeland - but you still have to put them in pairs first! |
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15 May 07 - 04:07 PM (#2052685) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: KB in Iowa So you pair them up, throw then in and the Lakeland thing organizes them for you? Cool, gotta get me one of those. |
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15 May 07 - 04:10 PM (#2052689) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: BuckMulligan go by thickness, makes it easier to grab a pair in the dark.... hmmm |
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15 May 07 - 04:13 PM (#2052696) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace Buy all the same colour and type of sock. Then it doesn't matter. |
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15 May 07 - 04:18 PM (#2052703) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Scoville Why? I don't. I pair them up and throw them all in in a pile. Unless one is colorblind, why do socks need to be more organized than that? |
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15 May 07 - 04:21 PM (#2052709) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Amos I don't believe you started this thread, Little Hawk. Go to your room. A |
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15 May 07 - 04:22 PM (#2052712) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Jean(eanjay) Buying all the same colour and type doesn't always work. Black socks seem to come in different shades of black and they can still look odd. It's even more difficult putting them in pairs than if they were all different colours. |
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15 May 07 - 04:36 PM (#2052727) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Penny S. You can get little clips to put on the socks before they enter the washing machine. Then, when washed and dried, put the toes together, roll the socks up, and then pull the top of one of them over the roll like a cuff. You didn't want to know that, did you? Penny |
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15 May 07 - 04:37 PM (#2052728) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace Oh. Plan B: Always wear mismatched socks, then it won't matter. |
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15 May 07 - 04:43 PM (#2052734) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace "Organizing your sock drawer..." AFL-CIO. Socks deserve to have their hands in unions, too. |
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15 May 07 - 04:44 PM (#2052736) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Scoville Wear boots. Nobody will ever see your socks so even people who might otherwise judge for having mismatched socks will never know. |
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15 May 07 - 04:47 PM (#2052742) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Georgiansilver Put them all in your washing machine and you only ever get one of each pair back, so chuck the odd ones in the drawer and use odd socks each day! |
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15 May 07 - 04:47 PM (#2052743) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace PART DEUX: Organizing your boot drawer... |
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15 May 07 - 04:56 PM (#2052758) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk Oh, come now, Amos! This is a burning subject that desperately needs indepth analysis by the keener minds on this forum. ;-) Good for a few laughs too. |
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15 May 07 - 04:59 PM (#2052765) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Scoville I've never lost a sock in the wash. Never. I must be special. |
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15 May 07 - 05:02 PM (#2052769) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Bert That's 'cos you've only got ONE sock Scoville!!! Buy all the same colour and type of sock. That's what I do, I only buy black socks, but I still have a drawer full of odd ones. I don't worry though 'cos if they don't match exactly nobody notices. Or they are too polite to mention it. |
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15 May 07 - 05:19 PM (#2052788) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Leadfingers Old friend of mine only ever wore odd socks ! If he pulled a matching pair out , he would always put one back ! He was a good Muso too !! |
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15 May 07 - 05:21 PM (#2052790) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Amos Hell, Bert, in your case I would guess it goes way beyond socks , and that you have a whole lifetime full of odd ones!!! :D A |
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15 May 07 - 05:26 PM (#2052798) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk I've been thinking about this... Suppose that instead of wearing separate socks we extended the traditional sock to make a full "body sock" that would cover the entire body, up to say...the waist...or even the neck. This would eliminate the problem of odd socks for good! |
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15 May 07 - 05:29 PM (#2052800) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: KB in Iowa Up to the waist, isn't that pretty much panty hose? |
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15 May 07 - 05:31 PM (#2052804) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: JohnInKansas It's really simple. 1. I buy all my socks the same color, and toss them in the drawer. 2. For an incredibly formal occasion, I might poke around a bit to find a second one that's faded about the same as the first one I pick up. 3. Usually I just try to get a second one with a similar number of holes (to keep things balanced when I limp). 4. I wear long pants, so it doesn't much matter. I usually try to wear two shoes that are at least similar to each other, but sometimes agonize over whether matching colors or matching shapes is more important for the occasion. John |
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15 May 07 - 05:31 PM (#2052807) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace It's what he wears on Friday nights . . . . |
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15 May 07 - 05:35 PM (#2052813) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk It is important not to wear 2 left shoes. People tend to make comments, specially in Washington, D.C. And, besides, it makes walking a bit awkward. |
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15 May 07 - 06:09 PM (#2052852) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Mo the caller UK shops delight in selling socks in sets of 3 pairs that NEARLY match! Same pattern, same colour, slightly different shades. GRRRR. |
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15 May 07 - 06:40 PM (#2052891) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Becca72 Of course, this problem becomes much larger when there are more than just socks in the drawer...I have all my "unmentionables" in the same drawer. Oh, damn...I just mentioned them. |
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15 May 07 - 06:43 PM (#2052893) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace Well, get them out! That has to HURTTTT. |
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15 May 07 - 07:10 PM (#2052913) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: artbrooks Well, here are a whole bunch of possibilities. But how about just turning a light on before you get the socks out? Finding a pair is kinda hard in the dark, even for those of us who are not |
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15 May 07 - 07:21 PM (#2052922) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Bert ...you have a whole lifetime full of odd ones... Of course I do, I'm a Mudcatter!!! |
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15 May 07 - 08:52 PM (#2052986) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's That's not so, Bert. I'm a big fan of socks. I've got lots of socks in different colors and patterns. Besides, cowboy boots are really uncomfortable without socks. |
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16 May 07 - 03:32 AM (#2053211) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Gurney When I was a flatting batchelor, all my socks were the same brand and in brown or black. 3 socks meant that you had a pair for certain. Nowadays I have someone who sorts them out for me, but as I say to her, "You bought all these different colours, why blame me?" Little Hawk, you should perhaps follow the younger fashions of today. They seem to have half a yard of trouserleg piled up on top of their (grubby) shoes. They MAY wear socks. Some of them have trousers that need sole-and-heeling. Hey, have we nothing better to do than give advice on sock drawers???? |
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16 May 07 - 03:42 AM (#2053216) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Geoff the Duck I organise my sock drawer by keeping it in the bedroom drawer cabinet which also contains drawers holding underwear and handkerchiefs. Does that help you LH? Quack! GtD. |
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16 May 07 - 04:32 AM (#2053234) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Sandra in Sydney I only wear socks in winter, knee high black socks & as folks have said before they can fade to different shades of black. So, when I have too many holey, darned socks, and have to open a new pair, I sew a few small stitches of coloured thread near the toe & have no trouble matching socks! Except when I've used the same colour thread on another pair. Then it's match shades of black!! A certain Ozcatter also wears black socks (I'm reliably informed) & just grabs 2 socks, regardless of whether one is a cushioned black sports sock, or a thin nylon ankle sock, or a knee high sock. We dunno how this Ozcatter walks. Oh, I forgot, they are folded in half & laid in rows in a drawer in my dressing table. In case this makes me sound organised, my sock drawer is about the only bit of organisation in this place. Further mess will ensue next week when my two new 6' x 5' bookcases arrive & I empty out the rest of the contents of the 2 old bookcases. One has a broken shelf & some contents are already on the floor, joining the stuff that lives there permanently. sandra |
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16 May 07 - 04:34 AM (#2053236) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Liz the Squeak I'm so organised I don't wear socks! Well, not very often... and we have a basket of 'smalls' on top of the washer where all small things are put. This gets cleared out when a) no-one can find any socks and b) when it overflows down the back of the machine. We call it Soxfam. Les Barker wrote a wonderful poem about odd socks in 'Get a dog and Barker yourself'. Buying many identical pairs doesn't work. The trick is to get the most different socks you can find, so that nothing is similar. Or just wear odd socks a lot. LTS |
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16 May 07 - 05:03 AM (#2053259) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Georgiansilver I always keep my golfing socks in a seperate drawer....they are the pairs that have 'a hole in one' |
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16 May 07 - 08:07 AM (#2053345) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: JennyO No prizes for guessing who the 'certain Mudcatter' is, Sandra. John's 'matching' of socks is so bizarre that I have come to the conclusion that it is not accidental - he is being rebellious and making a statement. Most of his socks are either brown or black, but they are so different in size, thickness and shades of black/brown that it's really obvious (to me anyway) when they don't match. He has a bunch of brown ones that he calls grey, and for some reason, two of them are about twice as long as all the others. There is another medium length pair, and a couple of short pairs which actually are interchangeable. But he thinks nothing of wearing a short one with a long one. I try to tune out and not notice for my sanity. |
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16 May 07 - 09:03 AM (#2053391) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Scoville Sock Dreams. Fun socks. |
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16 May 07 - 12:08 PM (#2053617) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Bill D I have 2 drawers full, 'good, matched socks', "old and not-so-comfy socks that will do when wearing boots" ...and a box in a closet called "socks too worn, weird or uncomfortable to keep". Guess which one has the most socks in it. |
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16 May 07 - 12:16 PM (#2053620) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: John on the Sunset Coast You can never organize a sock door. Fourteen seconds after your close the drawer they mix themselves up; they're perverse that way. |
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16 May 07 - 02:32 PM (#2053754) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: GUEST,Russ Most of my socks are black. A few are brown. No problem. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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16 May 07 - 03:23 PM (#2053811) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: McGrath of Harlow People rarely bother to look both your feet at the same time, so why worry? If you do worry, just buy black socks in future. No one is ever going to get down on all fours to check they are the same knitting pattern. |
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16 May 07 - 03:40 PM (#2053820) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Geoff the Duck But in Summer, McGrath, we'll all be wearing our sandals and rolling our trouser legs up. How could anyone NOT notice our socks being different shades of grey and of widely varying length? Quack! GtD. |
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16 May 07 - 03:54 PM (#2053838) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: bobad Isn't it against the law to wear socks with sandals? |
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16 May 07 - 05:09 PM (#2053907) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Bill D It's against my religion to have sandals chafe my feet, so I 'usually' wear nice, patterned socks with them. |
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16 May 07 - 05:12 PM (#2053911) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Georgiansilver O.K to wear socks with sandals as long as they match the knotted handkerchief |
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16 May 07 - 05:19 PM (#2053919) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: McGrath of Harlow The practice of wearing socks with sandals is often believed to have been introduced into Britain by the Romans, so that it is one aspect of Roman culture which has been preserved within the former province. On the other hand it is claimed by some that it was a pre-existing British custom which was taken up by Roman soldiers garrisoned here who found the climate a bit chilly. That actually seems more likely to me. |
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16 May 07 - 05:29 PM (#2053932) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Scoville It's against my religion to have sandals chafe my feet Amen. I'm sick of people griping about socks with sandals. They can blister their feet all they want, but, damn the fashion police, I want to be comfortable. |
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16 May 07 - 05:30 PM (#2053933) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Amos I believe wearing socks with sandals was introduced to nouveau-riche suburban culture in Greenwich, Connecticut, by a wild-eyed radical investment banker who had overindulged in dry Martinis, in the late Spring of 1957. To make it worse he wore Argyle socks with plaid shorts at the time. He was never forgiven, and eventually had to flee to Westport, where he scraped out a meager living arranging real-estate loans. A |
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16 May 07 - 05:41 PM (#2053941) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Gurney The socks-with-sandals debate had a thread to itself not long ago. I'll say here what I said there: James Bond wore socks with sandals, when he was in Jamaica. How cool can a man be? |
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16 May 07 - 06:06 PM (#2053962) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Becca72 What's the point of sandals if you're going to wear socks with them? Plus it just looks silly. I have several pairs of sandals and all of them are quite comfortable w/o socks. |
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16 May 07 - 06:12 PM (#2053966) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Jean(eanjay) I find socks with sandals uncomfortable. I just love summer because I don't have as many socks to wash so I don't have the problem of organizing so many of them. |
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16 May 07 - 07:15 PM (#2054022) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: billybob OK, but I want to know....PLEASE.. where does the odd sock go in the washing machine? Do they group somewhere in sybaspace? Just back from Ireland I solved the problem,on the ferry home they sell Irish odd socks, one yellow one green, both embelished with shamrocks, but then are there two socks in the ether looking for their soulmates?I/ll get me coat! |
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16 May 07 - 08:22 PM (#2054075) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: The Fooles Troupe billybob Don't worry, they sold some other fool the matching pair... Somewhere out there, if you can find them, is your Sock-Mate! |
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16 May 07 - 08:59 PM (#2054097) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk Odd socks are generally hiding in the sleeve or the pant leg of some larger piece of clothing. From there they make their devious way to other inconvenient places, such as the small space between the basement wall and the washer or under the dresser. By the time they are found, their mate has been thrown out or has long since disappeared. |
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16 May 07 - 09:43 PM (#2054133) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Amos Where does the odd old single sock go, After the spin cycle's done? Does he bid farewell to his life-long mate And duck out the vent on the run? Does he go up the flue, in a burst of blue When his walking days are all done? Oh, where does the sad lost single sock go, When you find the other one? Songs of Laundry Past Jakes Bin Modernished and the Indoor Boys Dairy Herd Platters, pub., Askfaloosa, 1976 |
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16 May 07 - 09:58 PM (#2054148) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Rapparee Shucks, just buy all black ones of the same type and size. Then buy a pair of red ones, a pair of blue ones, and so on. Just one pair of each. That way to don't have to think or anything. I once organized my sock drawer. Next thing I knew they were on strike, demanding to be laundered more than once a year. |
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16 May 07 - 10:51 PM (#2054178) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: artbrooks Herself just discovered that the mate of one of her odd socks is in North Carolina at her sister's house....... |
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17 May 07 - 12:16 AM (#2054208) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: mg I can not imagine organizing socks. Just throw them in a basket and rifle through every morning. mg |
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17 May 07 - 12:22 AM (#2054209) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk Actually, that's exactly what I am presently doing. |
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17 May 07 - 04:31 AM (#2054382) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Liz the Squeak Works perfectly well for me too... when I wear socks that is... I'm another of the 'no socks with sandals' brigade. I asked a friend once why he wore socks and sandals. He said he wore sandals because his feet got too hot in shoes but wore socks because his feet got cold in sandals. And this man was once responsible for controlling a large percentage of our nuclear energy... LTS |
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17 May 07 - 08:44 AM (#2054533) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: billybob Pug, the lead singer with The Famous Onion Band has always worn odd socks, in fact for some years Odd Socks was his nick name.Must have saved him hours in the mornings! |
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17 May 07 - 09:58 AM (#2054599) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: GUEST,Russ I wear socks with sandals to extend the sandal-wearing season. My birkenstocks are the most comfortable footwear I own. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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17 May 07 - 10:09 AM (#2054612) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: The Fooles Troupe A concreter who lives down road wears thongs - and socks - he says the rubber thongs are better than boots for walking on and finishing the concrete, but his feet get sweaty and slippery in the thongs so he wears socks. - long ones keep some of the concrete off his legs too - takes them off when he's finished the heli work. Always matching ones. |
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17 May 07 - 11:42 AM (#2054695) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Georgiansilver Let's sing songs of the rights and wrongs of shorts and longs, socks with thongs . |
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17 May 07 - 11:58 AM (#2054711) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk If you're a person who tends to get cold feet easily, then socks are the way to go when wearing sandals. Besides, it's more comfortable to wear socks between your skin and the material of the sandals. Also, the soles of your feet won't stick to the sandals...an annoying feeling, I think. The advantage to sandals over shoes is that your feet can breathe naturally, and the sandals are usually lighter in weight than most shoes too. Why should it offend anyone to see someone wearing socks with sandals? While we're on the subject of socks, note the erotic mileage that Linda Ronstadt got out of wearing socks on a series of album cover shots back in the 70s.... ;-) |
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17 May 07 - 12:23 PM (#2054737) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: GUEST Might have been even more erotic if she wore a thong [UK style, i.e. G-string]. |
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17 May 07 - 12:25 PM (#2054740) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk Yes, but she was more going for the "girl next door" look... |
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17 May 07 - 12:40 PM (#2054750) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Amos The Auld Sock Song Where does the odd old single sock go, After the spin cycle's done? Does he bid farewell to his life-long mate And duck out the vent on the run? Does he go up the flue, in a burst of blue When his walking days are all done? Oh, where does the sad lost single sock go, When you find the other one? Where do old coat hangars come from, In the closet after dark? Do they multiply in the deep of the night, Do they hang in a corner and spark? Are they formed in the gloom, from moth-ball fumes, And the dust from the cloak-room floor? Oh, where do so many coat hangars come from, Every time you open up the door? Songs of Laundry Past Jakes Bin Modernished and the Indoor Boys Dairy Herd Platters, pub., Askfaloosa, 1976 |
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17 May 07 - 03:59 PM (#2054874) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Peace For Little Hawk! |
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17 May 07 - 04:55 PM (#2054925) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Liz the Squeak If you have plastic sandals then yes, your feet will get moist and sweaty.... Get sandals made with natural materials; leather or rope soled are good. The other advantage will be that your feet won't smell either. LTS |
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18 May 07 - 09:58 AM (#2055498) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Schantieman When I was single and did my own laundry I never lost a sock in it. (What, never? Hardly ever). Then I got married and it was a weekly occurrence. Even when I did the laundry. Now I'm not married any more, it hasn't improved! Moral? Marriage ****s up your sock drawer. Just one more question: Why was a builder wearing a thong? And was it a thing thong? That's two. I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on. Where's my coat? |
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18 May 07 - 10:49 AM (#2055540) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: The Fooles Troupe "Why was a builder wearing a thong?" He had a pair. |
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18 May 07 - 10:53 AM (#2055545) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Donuel Lighting is of foremost importence. Make sure the light is too dim to see the difference between black and blue or on the other hand so glaringly bright that you can't see a thing. Next make sure the drawer sticks. Most important is to stuff it so full that the drawer will not shut as well as making a whole pile of socks spill out when you pull on one. Finally, and I can not emphasize this enough, make sure there are no matching socks to begin with. |
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18 May 07 - 11:08 AM (#2055557) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Becca72 What's even better is if the drawer sticks so much you have to yank on it and end up pulling it all the way out and dropping it on your feet. No need for socks when you're in a cast! :-) |
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18 May 07 - 11:46 AM (#2055590) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Charley Noble Geeze! I'm late as usual for chimming in on this great thread. Amos, that's a great song! Here's my old verse dedicated to the trolls that inhabit the dark inner world of the sock drawer: The next came in was a sock troll Whose dress was exceedingly droll, Whose dress was exceedingly droll, When he joined in the jovial crew For he was attired in socks he'd snatched, Argyle, stripped, and some was patched, And not a single one did match – When Jones's Ale was new, me boys, When Jones's Ale was new! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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18 May 07 - 12:05 PM (#2055606) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: GUEST,Vladimir the Inhaler I have a vast collection of socks, which i have carefully arranged in my cellar. My favourites are my fluffy lavender bed socks - followed by my black thigh high lacy ones. I have some that have pretend batwings on the toes - they squeak when I put them on! Vlad the Bad. |
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18 May 07 - 12:48 PM (#2055646) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: McGrath of Harlow A concreter who lives down road wears thongs - and socks Blimey! |
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18 May 07 - 02:01 PM (#2055720) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Donuel Becca you're hired to make the Peter Selleresque scenes even funnier for my 'next' movie. |
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18 May 07 - 05:40 PM (#2055889) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Bert Of course your feet won't smell either leather or rope soles, but your NOSE will!!! |
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18 May 07 - 05:59 PM (#2055909) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Liz the Squeak My Dragon: by Limpit aged 9 and LTS A dragon lives beneath my bed. You won't believe how well it's fed! For hiding there in dark and gloom, it can see all round the room, and every single sock I lose he steals away and quietly chews. So when I try to find a pair, there's always one that isn't there. And that is why, upon my feet no matter in what state the street, A pair of socks you'll never find. But that's OK, I don't mind for just as long as Dragon's fed, he stays asleep beneath my bed. I dread the day his eyelid flickers, For then he might start on my knickers! LTS |
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19 May 07 - 04:52 AM (#2056253) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Liz the Squeak It's true... we are all getting older. Once upon a time we talked about sex and drugs and Rock 'n' Roll. Now it's socks and rugs and sausage rolls.... Ho hum... Tempus fugit... LTS |
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19 May 07 - 10:05 AM (#2056386) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: The Fooles Troupe "It's a long way to the shop if you want a sausage roll!" |
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31 Aug 09 - 12:22 PM (#2712969) Subject: RE: BS: Organizing your sock drawer... From: Little Hawk It might be time to revive this important discussion... |
