|
07 Jun 07 - 05:44 PM (#2070981) Subject: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Tig It seems the Nanny State are now wanting to control our drinking vessels. I got this link today from a reliable source. It seems the Police are wanting to stop alcohol being served in glass, requiring it to be served in plastic pots instead. Personally I much prefer glass - and have never wanted to smash one over someone in a fight in my life. If you feel like me please sign the petition and don't let another choice be taken away. http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/plasticglass/ |
|
07 Jun 07 - 06:02 PM (#2071002) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Sorcha Well, my wine in the 'church' pub has been in plastic for a long time. We can still get glass, but bring your own tankard isn't common here. Legal, but not common. |
|
07 Jun 07 - 06:23 PM (#2071023) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: artbrooks Beer glasses in the US are usually frosted! Even if they are plastic! |
|
07 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM (#2071024) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: bobad Isn't that an oxymoron? |
|
07 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM (#2071043) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: artbrooks By frosted, I mean encased in a layer of ice. Of course, that does help some of the mass-produced American beers! |
|
07 Jun 07 - 07:18 PM (#2071074) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,guest Perhaps if they could make the glass so it shattered, like a car windscreen, then an awful lot of youngsters would be spared injury - I wonder what someone who works in A & E would think of this? |
|
07 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM (#2071077) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego Plastic glasses for mass-produced American "pilseners" could only improve the experience. Alas, glass is the only way to go for a proper brew. Also, plastic vessels don't make the same impression on the mind that glass can produce! |
|
08 Jun 07 - 12:36 AM (#2071108) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Gurney Impression on the mind? Pint pots certainly make an impression on the skull! Pint glasses break, but if you hit someone hard with a pot, it's his head that will break. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 02:17 AM (#2071141) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bob Bolton G'day GUEST,guest, I seem to remember reading, in article that also said the most common weapon of assauly in UK was a broken beer glass, that glasses of tempered glass, which shatters, rather than breaks into a fighting edge, were standard in the rest of Europe ... but the Poms don't make them - so the manufactures have managed to keep them out. (I admit that I don't understand how they could actually do that ... given EU rules on intra-EU trading ... perhaps they are able to exert enough leverage on the pubs to keep out "French" tempered glasses.) Regards, Bob |
|
08 Jun 07 - 04:28 AM (#2071188) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Dave the Gnome It is because of the danger of people using glasses as weapons when taken outside. Some places have banned drinking outside and some say you can drink outside but only in plastic. Makes sense. I mean, look in any European city. Paris, Berlin, Madrid, Rome. Prague. They are all the same. Sat out on pavement cafes, chanting racist football chants. Pushing broken glass into other peoples faces all day long. Seems a shame realy. I mean, you would never get that in England where we treat alcohol with respect and whole families go out to bars most weekends. Bloody Europeans, hoards of drunks staggering round the streets every night, spoiling it for the rest of us. Cheers :D |
|
08 Jun 07 - 04:39 AM (#2071193) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: stallion I have been under the impression that tempered glass was now compulsory in UK pubs, our Pub gave the pub cricket club all it's "normal" glasses some years ago, the landlord said " can't use those type anymore", having caught one of the new glasses on a table and see it shatter into a million pieces I was suitably impressed if not a little embarrassed at having slung the precious liquid everywhere. Maybe it is a local Bye law like town centre pubs having to have doormen (or should that be person's) Plastic is better than no drink at all, maybe. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 04:47 AM (#2071196) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Folkiedave By frosted, I mean encased in a layer of ice. Of course, that does help some of the mass-produced American beers! American beer is sold cold to distinguish it from gnat's piss. :-) Having said that in the twice I have been visited America I was lucky enough to taste some really good craft beers both in Oregon - where it seems to be a major industry - and Pennsylvania where my hosts went to a great deal of trouble to find beers they thought I might like. And served in glasses. I am sure the problem is outside drinking. But as far as violence is concerned surely bottles are just as dangerous and there seems to be no restrictions on people drinking out of them outside. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 05:13 AM (#2071206) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Kevin Sheils It's madness. The landlady of the oub I use before football managed to hold off the "plastic" requirement as long as possible but the police finally insisted. As she commented she has to give me my pint in a plastic glass but if I order a meat pie she can give me a knife and fork! |
|
08 Jun 07 - 05:14 AM (#2071207) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,chris The problem isn't glasses its asses who, after one sniff of the barmaids apron. think they are Rambo. chris |
|
08 Jun 07 - 07:50 AM (#2071271) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bernard Interesting - most pub glasses I've seen are either English Ravenshead or French Arcoroc, so the nationality may not be an issue... However, traditional 'tall glasses' are made with very thin glass, whereas most tempered glassware tends to be rather thicker - maybe that's the objection? Personally, I much prefer the dimple barrel glass with a handle, which used to be the norm. I'm not sure why they fell out of favour... and they are much thicker than 'tall glasses'. 'Plastics' instead of 'glasses'... doesn't have the same ring to it!! |
|
08 Jun 07 - 07:52 AM (#2071275) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: manitas_at_work The dimple mugs are heavier and of more use in a fight. They are also more expensive and hard to stack. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:01 AM (#2071281) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST Also the dimple type glass, if known how,could provide an instant "glass" knuckle duster. Particularly sharp and nasty. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:11 AM (#2071297) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,BobL Bring back the old blackjack I say! For those not in the know, that's a leather tankard, lined with pitch. Adds a certain something to the flavour too, but you don't want to breathe in while drinking, not at least while it's (the tankard, not the beer) new. Now only seen amongst clog sides and at gatherings of the Sealed Knot. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:30 AM (#2071311) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: McGrath of Harlow It's routine in pubs at folk festivals for them to give you a plastic glass if you plan to take it outside. That's more a matter of glasses being lost as people wander from watering hole to watering hole, folkies may quarrel (as we do here), but we very rarely fight. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:55 AM (#2071327) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Grab Yet another bollocks online petition, written by (and signed by) people who are too fucking stupid to be allowed to vote anywhere else. Tig, I'm afraid you need to downgrade your source from "reliable" to "purveyor of urban legends and other random bullshit". I quote the petition itself: "The trade is extremely concerned at calls from the Association of Chief Police Officers for glass bans to be introduced in high-energy pubs and clubs. We feel a targeted approach - where polycarbonate glasses were only introduced on a venue-by-venue basis - would be fairer." About 2 minutes on Google finds this link to what the ACPO actually said and the source of this, which is an Early Day Motion proposing that pubs with a past history of violent behaviour by users should be required to use plastic glasses. How much more venue-by-venue do you get? And as far as "venue-by-venue" goes, how should a venue choose whether to use plastic glasses? Answer: are they a "high-energy" pub or club that's likely to have problems? If so, then yes. If not, then stick with the glass. Lesson #1 for signing anything: If you haven't fully checked what you're signing, you shouldn't sign it! If you don't like lesson #1, pass me your cheque book... and now sign this petition, please... yes I know it looks a bit like a cheque, but don't let that bother you... Graham. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:59 AM (#2071334) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Leadfingers As good a reason as any for carrying your own Tankard ! Apart from which , my old Dad warned me MANY years ago of the health hazards in drinking out of wet glasses ! |
|
08 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM (#2071339) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,Shimrod If the country wasn't full of tanked-up, stupid, selfish, violent young arseholes we wouldn't need plastic glasses, would we? Bring on the plastic glasses, I say - oh, and bring back public flogging as well! |
|
08 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM (#2071351) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Just to defend our beers in the U.S. - don't judge us by the piss that is manufactured by Budweiser, Millers & Coors. I've had Bass Ale, it it ain't much better! The craft brewing revolution here in the United States has produced beers (and when I say "beer", I am referring to ales and lagers) that have won international awards. I know the UK specializes in milds and bitters, but here in the U.S. you will find brewers that have a bit more imagination and produce some amazing dopplebocks, rauchbier, weizenbeer, along with the standard fare of ales and lagers. If you are ever in the NYC area, make a trip over to New Jersey and visit Andy's Pub in Bogota, NJ. It is an unassuming bar, but it has gained a reputation as a beer mecca for beer lovers everywhere. No frosted mugs, the beer is served at temperatures appropriate to the style and in the proper glass. Oh yes, you will not find any plastic glasses. I have never witnessed a barfight where a glass was used as a weapon. Unlike the gutless swine who need to find a weapon to defend themselves, I have never seen anyone that would resort to such a cowardly act. We have respect for our glasses - the only way to serve good beer. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 09:32 AM (#2071360) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: The Fooles Troupe The Optometrist said I should wear plastic glasses, as they are light in my prescription. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM (#2071364) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: The Fooles Troupe The Optometrist said I should wear plastic glasses, as they are lighter in my prescription. So that's where all our messages have been going!!! Foolestroupe is stealing them - *GRIN* (bert) |
|
08 Jun 07 - 10:17 AM (#2071416) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Tig Yes I read Grab - and although it states 'high-energy pubs and clubs' who is to say they won't eventually roll it out throughout the lot! It only takes someone to say "What a good idea overall!" Sorry, but I've seen it happen in other places. I am NOT in the habit of signing things I haven't read first - or checking my sources before passing them on. Surely the pub trade knows what it's talking about on this one (though that was not my initial source). And before you ask - Yes, I HAVE worked in some rough pubs before now, along with some quiet ones where people would be horrified at the thought of plastic. Quote from petitioners:- This petition has been started by the pub trade paper The Morning Advertiser on behalf of its readers. The trade is extremely concerned at calls from the Association of Chief Police Officers for glass bans to be introduced in high-energy pubs and clubs. We feel a targeted approach - where polycarbonate glasses were only introduced on a venue-by-venue basis - would be fairer. We believe it is wrong to disadvantage the entire pub trade because of poor management at certain establishments. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 11:03 AM (#2071456) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,Wayne I have to agree with WDFU - Ron Olesko. To judge American beer by the standard of Miller's or Budweiser would be like saying all British beer tasted like Tetley's or Nitrokeg. There are many fine breweries in the States and occasionally their beer will find an outlet over here. Sierra Nevada pale ale and Goose Island Honkers are becoming almost common in Yorkshire, for example and are both delicious. Wayne |
|
08 Jun 07 - 11:15 AM (#2071462) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bert You're right Ron, there are loads of good micro-brews in the USA. Most reasonably sized towns have one or two and they are very good. I just wish a few more of them would make a 'mild' now and then though. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM (#2071482) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) I agree with Ron too- I've had some fine American beers from independent breweries, micros, etc. when I've been over. The few that make bitter brew it to be served too cold though, IMHO... But how about that crack about the lack of imagination of British brewers? Out-bloody-rageous! You need to come on a pubcrawl with me if you ever visit Manchester, Mr O: it's not all Boddies and Tetleys, you know! As well as a fine and very varied range of bitters, many local, independent brewers do summer ales, winter ales, amber ales, stouts, porters, wheat beers, IPAs- even godawful beers with ginger in them. Some even do decent lagers... In fact, that's it. I'm going for a pint. Now. Cheers Nigel |
|
08 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM (#2071483) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: jacqui.c Back in the 70's I was in a club with my then boyfriend when someone groped at me. Nick remonstrated, mildy, with the guy who said 'so fucking what', broke his glass and shoved it in Nick's face. Nick ended up with a five day stay in hospital, nearly losing the sight in his left eye and with one hell of a scar to show for his pains. Trust me, once you've witnessed something like that you can see why plastic would be a good idea in some places. Even then there were certain pubs in North London that went over to plastic because of the problems with a small number of the clientelle. On a venue by venue basis I can see that this would be a good idea. If it ever got to being mandatory for all pubs, then would be the time to show that your local doesn't have the problem. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 12:21 PM (#2071513) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko I stand corrected Nick! :) |
|
08 Jun 07 - 12:33 PM (#2071527) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Grab Sorry for going off pop, but this is 3 out of 3 duff petitions as far as I can see, and it really winds me up. As far as the petition goes, it's inconsistent with the facts, and it's even inconsistent with itself. * The petitioner says he's concerned about calls from the Association of Chief Police Officers - actually the ACPO was just commenting on an Early Day Motion from an MP, made no such request itself. * The EDM calls for "the replacement of glass with polycarbonate vessels in specific licensed premises". The petition asks for "a targeted approach". That's what's suggested. What are petition supporters complaining about? * Quote: "...the motion proposes targeting only specific sites, rather than general areas, because, Grogan said, a wider ban would be a disproportionate response and would diminish the pub-going experience and customers' enjoyment." That's targeted. What are petition supporters complaining about? * The ACPO spokesman says "We support the introduction of polycarbonate glasses into all premises with a history of violence or with a 'high-energy' clientele who could be most at risk in venues serving drinks in glass containers." That's a targeted approach, aiming for places with the most risk of fights. What are petition supporters complaining about? * The petition itself asks for "a targeted approach" with plastic used on "a venue-by-venue basis", but then claims this will "disadvantage the entire pub trade because of poor management at certain establishments" - in other words, explicitly admitting that there *are* specific venue-by-venue cases where this is needed. who is to say they won't eventually roll it out throughout the lot Let's deal with it when it happens, maybe? The problem with the "thin-end-of-the wedge" theory is that it takes an idea that's sensible in itself and refuses to accept it because if the boundaries are shifted then unwanted stuff could happen. Say, refusing to accept 20mph speed limits outside schools because that's the thin end of the wedge to a country-wide 20mph limit on all roads. Or opposing congestion charging in the most jammed areas of major cities as the thin end of the wedge to roll in charging for all roads everywhere. It ignores the fact that a further decision must be made *and supported*. The pub trade will say what's in the pub trade's interest - it's a business. But the good pubs already use plastic glasses in places where there's a risk. It costs them a little more (they can't be reused) but they accept that for the increased trade and improved reputation. So this really only affects badly-run places, and I don't think defending them for putting customers at risk is a way to run an industry. Graham. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 12:43 PM (#2071538) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Greg B Perhaps if they just had the punters drink straight from the taps. Perhaps some sort of arrangement of tubing that could be plugged in at various locations in the pub. I have to admit, that the last beer I had was a Coors product and was more than a little good. I was at TGI Friday's, felt the yen for something different, saw they had Blue Moon in the taps and ordered one. First time I've had it with what has (apparently) become the traditional big wedge of fresh orange floating in it. Ice cold, with an orange, and it was really quite wonderful. As was the second one. And this from one who relishes craft-brewed ales out of a hand pump. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 12:48 PM (#2071542) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: McGrath of Harlow high-energy pubs and clubs. If high energy means dangerously close to violence, which is what it sounds like, they should have their licences taken away. Properly run pubs can be lively and noisy and exciting without any need for special precautions. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 02:35 PM (#2071614) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Herga Kitty I sometimes find in summer, when the weather's sticky, that the rigid plastic glasses are easier to manage than slippery glass -it's the floppy plastics I hate. And singing "come lift up your glasses" isn't the same when you're holding plastic.... Kitty |
|
08 Jun 07 - 03:08 PM (#2071644) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko One thing I will say, that I know you can't appreciate in the UK, there is nothing like going to a baseball game and having a cheap lager in a wax paper cup on a hot day. Many of the major league parks are, or have, switched over to plastic, but there is something about having a hot dog in one hand, a cold Bud in a sweaty paper cup in the other, and enjoying a ballgame. Let's play two. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 03:12 PM (#2071652) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: PoppaGator In New Orleans, unlike anywhere else in the US (and presumably most of the world as well), people are allowed to take their alcoholic drinks out on the street, and to walk around anywhere with drink in hand. Tourists find this either amusing, shocking, or simply very welcome. However, it is absolutely required, widely enforced, and generally accepted by drinkers of all kinds, that gloass containters ~ bottles as well as glasses ~ are absolutley prohibited outside the bar. Patrons are required to pour their drinks into plastic "go-cups" if they head for the door, and there is almost never any argument about it. Wouldn't this be a reasonable policy elsewhere, modified as necessary for local custom? It seems that the danger of using glass "pots" as weapons is seen to be much greater out on the street than within the confines of the pub... |
|
08 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM (#2071657) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: jacqui.c The incident that I was involved with was inside the club and I am aware of a couple of others that happened inside as well. Unfortunately there are a few uncivilised beings who have to spoil it for every one else. Problem is, most of the time nobody ever 'sees' anything and they get away with it. |
|
08 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM (#2071704) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Murray MacLeod surely this should be in the BS section, although beer and folk music does go together imo ... PoppaGator, would I be correct in thinking that the dispensation to which you refer is only applicable in the confines of the French Quafrdter ( traffic-free zone ) and is not applicable throughout the rest of the city ? |
|
08 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM (#2071706) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Murray MacLeod * French Quarter* ... |
|
08 Jun 07 - 08:08 PM (#2071849) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,Mr Twowheels what about those cyclists backpacks containing an inflatable bladder for liquids with a hose that passes over the shoulder into the mouth ? |
|
08 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM (#2071904) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bonecruncher It appears to be much easier to punish the majority for the transgressions of a few. For the landlord to require the person using a glass, or any other item, as a weapon, to leave his premises is z simple request. If not leaving voluntarily then the individual should be escorted from the premises. Otherwise the landlord is derelict in his duty of care to the public, as his guests. Note that it is an offence to be drunk in charce of a bicycle. Likewise a motorcycle and even a pram! Colyn. |
|
09 Jun 07 - 02:47 AM (#2071964) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: The Fooles Troupe ... even a horse. |
|
09 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM (#2072087) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker good quality drinks just taste and 'feel' wrong drank out of 'plastics' ..especially on hot summers days ..and i need at least 2 of those thin flimsy pint plastics stacked inside each other before they're structually strong enough for me to not inadervertently crush between my fingers.. |
|
09 Jun 07 - 09:15 AM (#2072093) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker oh.. and it well pisses me off being blatantly overcharged for drinks at big music events & venues ..and.. in the full expectation that the experience of drinking rip-off priced pints will be further spoiled by being served up in warm plastics.. ..so f@ck 'em.. i dont bother going to any of 'em any more.. |
|
09 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM (#2072282) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: GUEST,woodsie With all the current PC talk about "carbon footprints" and Blair's commitment to a 50% reduction in shite emissions. How can switching to plastic glasses, which are not allowed to be re-used under health regs, make sense? |
|
09 Jun 07 - 07:26 PM (#2072437) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: McGrath of Harlow require the person using a glass, or any other item, as a weapon, to leave his premises Making a citizens arrest of the offender would be a much more appropriate thing for any responsible landlord to do in the case of anyone using a glass as a weapon. |
|
09 Jun 07 - 08:11 PM (#2072477) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: jacqui.c Problem is finding the offender most of the time. While everyone has their attention on the injured person - and believe me, there's a lot of blood spilt from a head wound, which seems to be the norm for this type of attack - the offender disappears and no-one really wants to get involved in acting as a witness. I think that the temperred glass sounds like a very good idea. Doesn't seem to be very widespread though. |
|
10 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM (#2072677) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bob Bolton G'day Stallion, Bernard (and, of course, jacqui.c), My memory, way up above, was of something I read a number of years back. It may well be that British manufacturers now make 'safe' tempered glasses. Another (sad) thought about why they aren't being adopted, without Government compulsion, may lurk in another point I remember from the article ... the use of tempered glasses means much greater life for the glasses, due to minimised breakage ... so they aren't as profitable for the glass suppliers (... and tough about Jacqui's lad... )! Regards, Bob |
|
10 Jun 07 - 04:02 AM (#2072689) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Liz the Squeak A TV progamme (?Brainiacs) tested one of those polycarbonate "glasses" along with many other allegedly unbreakable and protective items, such as kevlar vest, steel toe-cap boots, aeroplane black box, a plastic tray and several other household items. They kicked them, whacked them individually across a field with a baseball bat several times, fired them out of a cannon and finally placed them in a caravan, which was dynamited. The kevlar vest suffered some little damage, which was reassuring, but the little plastic beer glass survived throughout. Of course, they didn't do the ultimate tests which were 20 minutes with an unsupervised toddler and 3 goes through the dishwasher. LTS |
|
10 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM (#2072773) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: The Fooles Troupe Actually polycarbonate can be very weak in some circumstances. if it gets surface micro-cracks it will die. Heating cycles in a dishwasher sound like a possibility. Did once hear a rumour that if you threw orange juice (or similar mild acid) over one of those riot shields it would shatter a while later.... |
|
10 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM (#2072776) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: Bob Bolton G'day Fooles... We (Testing Branch of what was then Sydney County Council - now EnergyAustralia) found... accidentally in the process of a rush job on high voltage insulating sticks... that using "Superglue" (cyanoacrylate) instead of epoxy resin led to the safety shields shattering. This is due to the cyanoacrylate's anaerobic setting, which leads to it expanding in those "micro-cracks". Fortunately, not many drinkers spike their beer with superglue... Regards, Bob |
|
10 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM (#2072781) Subject: RE: Plastic glasses in pubs (UK) From: The Fooles Troupe Bob I used to work in Telstra Supply Branch.... drink anything, some would :-P |