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10 Jul 07 - 11:24 AM (#2098727) Subject: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: wysiwyg My apologies if the thread titling offends. So many potential angles of offense-- thread title change fine with me if wanted. But what I want to open discussion about is this. I recall that some years ago, white supremists were "warning" people that the trend toward "race-mixing" in the USA would "turn the country brown." I believe population studies were behind it.... Whatever the scientific validity of the studies, and whatever is the cause, I'm just really pleased to see that it lokks like it's happening. Whether it's due primarily to more opportunities for people of color, or whether it's due to increased "mixed" marriages, the face of the media (and entertainment) is at long last far more diverse that it had been in the past. Just a few of the abundant "famous" examples of people of color of various heritages who are now in the public eye: Newswoman Hoda Kotbe Golfer Tiger Woods Singer Mariah Carey Hockey goalie Ray Emery Legal analyst Jami Floyd .... And for every one of these, I can easily think of other faces in their respective fields whose names don't imediately come to mind. And others in other fields. My daily experience indicates that the old "warning" is bearing fruit. Rich, sweet fruit. Again, apologies for plain speaking if it offends. But I bet most if not all Mudcatters could enjoy the idea of the discomfort supremists must be experiencing, if we're actually in the thick of that particular change. Discuss? ~Susan |
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10 Jul 07 - 11:34 AM (#2098738) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow High time too.: What we need is a great big melting pot Big enough enough enough to take The world and all its got And keep it stirring for A hundred years or more And turn out coffee coloured people by the score |
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10 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM (#2098764) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: artbrooks Don't forget Senator/Presidential candidate Barak Obama! Hummmm...my spell checker doesn't believe in either of those names-hope there is a fix soon. Very true, Susan, and I hope it keeps on...but it may take the dying off of our parents' (and perhaps our own) generation before we reach this desirable point. My children, raised in a liberal (in the old sense of the word) household are virtually color-blind, and I see that as a good thing. IMHO, and there are those (including some Mudcatters) who will disagree, one can celebrate African, or African-American, heritage on the same footing as Irish, German or Russian-Jewish ancestry without setting that group (or any group) aside as a separate "race". I am looking forward to the point where we loose the "one drop" concept, in which a person with one Black/Hispanic/Asian/whatever ancestor, no matter how far back, is considered Black/Hispanic/Asian/whatever. One of the things that amazes me is the hierarchy of negativity the main-stream media has, and many individuals have, about such things. That is, White people (and I really hate that designation!) are somehow "better" than Asians, who are "better" than Hispanics, who are "better" than Indians, who are "better" than Blacks. For example, Tiger Woods is considered the greatest Black golfer ever (point, point), but I haven't heard any one refer to him as the greatest Asian golfer! |
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10 Jul 07 - 12:02 PM (#2098775) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: wysiwyg Barak, yeah. Melting pot-- I think a paella. I think it's a transitional step to racelessness i.e. a society divisible by "race." A transition to a society no longer vulnerable to that divisibility. (Long view) A heritage-pride movement I used to be part of had the concept, "Name it, claim it, move beyond it, drop it." With "It" being the single-minded focus on one's heritage-basis for identity. ~S~ |
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10 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM (#2098798) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Rapparee There's only the human race (that includes Feringis, Klingons, Wookies, etc.). |
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10 Jul 07 - 01:16 PM (#2098864) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie That, of course, is Barack Obama. On NBC News, a couple of reporters who come to mind are Lester Holt and Ron Allen. Our "local" news (Anchorage. 600 miles away) also has people of color in the top spots. I think it's a barometer of healthy progress in our country. |
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10 Jul 07 - 01:27 PM (#2098884) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing Over the next half-century, California's population will explode by nearly 75%, and Riverside will surpass its bigger neighbors to become the second most populous county after Los Angeles, according to state Department of Finance projections released Monday. But whether sprawl or skyscrapers win the day, the Golden State will probably be a far different and more complex place than it is today, as people live longer and Latinos become the dominant ethnic group, eclipsing all others combined. I wish that article said something about the melding of races. My dau. and her husband did their bit when they had my beautiful twin grandsons.He used to call them their "zebra-children" i.e. black and white. Her girlfriend also has children of mixed race including black, white, and latina/o. There are many in the area they live in, in CT. |
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10 Jul 07 - 01:34 PM (#2098895) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow I think it really should be Barak, but it got misspelled so often he decided to go with the flow. |
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10 Jul 07 - 01:42 PM (#2098908) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow This "one drop" also applies to being Irish on St Patrick's Day. |
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10 Jul 07 - 02:28 PM (#2098954) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Joe Offer My 92-yr-old mother-in-law lives with us. She's a wonderful woman, but she listens to right-wing talk shows all the time, and than she talks about the damn things. "The browning of America" seems to be one of the favorite phrases of the talk show hosts. To me, it's very thinly, obscenely veiled racism. It's always spoken of as a threat, that this "browning" is a terrible thing that is destroying our American Culture and that it's awful that the government hasn't done something to stop it. So, when I hear the term "the browning of America," my automatic response is anger at the racism that is still so pervasive in our land. -Joe- |
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10 Jul 07 - 02:31 PM (#2098957) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie I see that I didn't address the topic, that of the natural browning of the population. I'm among those who approve of it. For starters, the skin is much prettier. Two of my nieces, one on the west coast and one in the east, have married black men and their children are lovely. |
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10 Jul 07 - 02:34 PM (#2098963) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: wysiwyg right-wing talk shows Since I don't listen to those shows, to me it's an old, obsolete term and I'd hoped that putting it in quotes would make my stance on it clearer. It is hard, though, to fit a more sensitive thread title into the box. But I'm open to suggestions, as I indicated. In plainspeak: Sure is hard to talk about sh*t without mentioning sh*t! :~) ~Susan |
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10 Jul 07 - 02:45 PM (#2098974) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: jeffp One of my granddaughters is mixed. And beautiful. My grandson-to-be (due in November) will be (is?) also. I'm sure he will be gorgeous also, his mother is. Where I live, interracial couples are not very uncommon, so tolerance is fairly good. This isn't true everywhere around here, unfortunately. My girlfriend's sister is married to a black man and one of their neighbors hates them for it. Oh well, maybe someday. |
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10 Jul 07 - 02:51 PM (#2098976) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,dianavan I'm all for it. Much prettier children. In fact, when I was in Arizona, I noticed that compared to the brown skinned folks, the obviously white folks looked pretty ugly. I've seen lots of mixes her in Vancouver but the prettiest I have seen are Chinese and Aboriginal American. A close second is Mexican and African American. If there is anything the baby boomers can be proud of, interracial marriage tops the list. I think it has done more to end discrimination than all the govt. interventions combined. As usual, the people seem to be overcoming racial discrimation in their own way. Say yes to chocolate, coffee, cinnamon and tea. |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:02 PM (#2098989) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly Well, hell, here's a right-winger who's all for it. To HELL with diversity -- when diversity is, by definition, MAINTAINING the differences. Mix it all up, I say. And though it doesn't mean a practical thing, I too think that mixed "races" (there is no such biological thing as "races") are BEAUTIFUL -- at least the examples I know and see. Pretty much solves race relations when there are no more. Another mixed-"race" public figure -- this years American Idol, Jordin Sparks. |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:21 PM (#2099006) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: MMario Ethnic blending has always been a strength in the US - whether is is the blending of physical ethnicity - or the cross cultural blending of customs and traditions. |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:31 PM (#2099015) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: greg stephens If everybody became brown in a few generations, would it stay that way? Or would it start to separate again? I mean, presumably everybody was the same colour to start with, and then things happened(what exactly?) and we ended up with an incredible diversity of physical appearance. So, if it happened once, presumably it could happen again? What factors would be involved? |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:38 PM (#2099029) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow Mind you, "race" isn't the only way of separating out groups of people so as to encourage them to hate each other. Though it probably is the most peculiar way. I hope that our grandchildren will just find it weird and incomprehensible. |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:43 PM (#2099033) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi "Interracial mating makes beautiful babies" Say hello to the new meme just like the old meme. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Does it make interracial mating more acceptable to think "Oh well, their children will be beautiful"? I pity those racially mixed children, teens, and adults who aren't physically beautiful {whatever the heck that means}. Given this "browning is beautiful" meme, those people will have a rough row to hoe. In my not at all humble opinion, you guys and gals are engaging in stereotypical thinking. And to say that white people are ugly. Is that more acceptable than saying that Black people are ugly? NO! It's very sad if this is what it takes for the USA and the world to move away from the once firmly held belief that white descriptors of physical beauty are the only standards of beauty that can ever exist. I would very much prefer if people in this nation and in this world would recognize that physical beauty comes in all colors, shapes, and features. Not to mention the fact that "it's whats inside that counts." |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:45 PM (#2099035) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Mrrzy greg, what happened was geographic isolation in different climes - humans started out black (like Africans and Aborigines, not like American blacks) and, when they'd migrated to different climates, lost some of their melanin, leaving people who are dusky brown like some Asians, yellowish-brown like other Asians or Eskimo, reddish-brown like native Americans, and pale as all getout for Northern Europe. But before enough millions of years had passed for us to speciate, we all got mixed back up, which is why there aren't enough biological bases for the human term Race. Although of course there are biological differences among the races, notably the amount of melanin produced. Hybrid vigor is a wonderful thing. If everyone were of mixed ancestry, there would still be some (white-looking people) and some (black-looking people) and some (asian-looking people) and so on, but they would be rare; the rarest would be the white-lookers as their traits seem most recessive. |
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10 Jul 07 - 03:46 PM (#2099038) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself I find this thread weird. I really don't find one colour of skin preferable to others. I don't see a mixed coupling as any better than an 'unmixed' coupling. I don't see mixed children as preferable to 'unmixed' children. Someone please tell me what's wrong with me. |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:12 PM (#2099064) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Mrrzy Anyway, we here in the US aren't supposed to be white, that's the Europeans. There isn't any default American color, which is how it should be. Unless you count that we shouldn't have exterminated the natives... in which case theirs would be the default color. I grew up being referred to as a European from America... |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:16 PM (#2099069) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: MMario I would very much prefer if people in this nation and in this world would recognize that physical beauty comes in all colors, shapes, and features HUzzah! I've a friend who over the last 18 months or so has lost about 50% of her body weight - she was always a beautiful woman - but you know what makes her more beautiful then she was? The HAPPINESS that she carries about now. It's not the "new" body that makes her better looking - it's the attitude. |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:44 PM (#2099097) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "I find this thread weird. I really don't find one colour of skin preferable to others. I don't see a mixed coupling as any better than an 'unmixed' coupling. I don't see mixed children as preferable to 'unmixed' children. Someone please tell me what's wrong with me." I doubt anything is wrong with you. Nothing that I know of, anyway. I don't think that the mixing of the races as a positive thing, in the context of this thread, is meant as anything but... ...I'm fed up with the race-as-politics thing that permates, not the day to day activities most of live through -- middle America has become pretty darn color-blind. But it's the manipulations of leaders and those who gain power by our differences that I can't stand anymore. And in a perverse way, those political manipulations are causing a racism that wouldn't be there -- and it's making that racism somewhat valid. When a group of people can be led to act as a single entity (like one race voting over 95% for one political party) it cannot be said that one cannot stereotype. In this political atmosphere, yes, one can fairly safely stereotype. And that's not a good thing. Azizi, You can see your memes wherever you wish. I doubt anyone meant it the way you took it. When I say that the mixed race people I know are beautiful, I mean it two ways -- 1) literally -- the mixed race people I know, or know of, are beautiful (Stephanie, Jake, Greg, etc) 2) I like the mixes. Just like I like the looks of a beautiful white man/woman/child or beautiful black man/woman/child, or a beautiful Japanese man/woman/child, I like the way the mixes manifest themselves in a beautiful mixed man/woman/child. Skin color that is different and not common in non-mix. Eyes that are different and not found common in non-mix. Body shapes that are different and not found common in non-mix. So you can keep your chip on your shoulder if you'd like. And you can keep defining us whites as to what you THINK we're saying. But I don't think it's really necessary. |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:50 PM (#2099106) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie We are what we are. If one's standard of what constitutes beauty is of white, white skin, that is what one will resonate to. Like a friend of mine who left Alaska and moved to New Mexico. He was gone 7 or 8 years before he visited Alaska again. And you know what? He said he had forgotten how pretty white skin is. (And you can't get much farther from being racist than that man is.) Maybe it is like regions where the norm of house colors and shades is earth tones. I've had people from the American Southwest tell me how pretty the houses in Juneau are - only because we have every conceivable color here. But I have no doubt that if the people who grew up in the regulatory earth-toned houses were gone from them for years before they returned there, they would be agog at the beauty of home. |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:53 PM (#2099111) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: beardedbruce "...were gone from them for years before they returned there, they would be agog at the beauty of home. " I think this is a true statement, regardless of where home is. |
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10 Jul 07 - 04:53 PM (#2099113) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself I don't know what a 'meme' is - but otherwise I think Azizi is right on. Some of the comments betray a real discomfort with matters of race, and a hyper-consciousness of race ... which I suppose is understandable, if unfortunate ... |
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10 Jul 07 - 05:28 PM (#2099150) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly Holy hell. Nobody (especially me) who said that mixed races make beautiful people said... 1. that it made beautiful people as compared to what was before. There was no "...MORE beautiful than..." statement made. 2. all mixed race people are beautiful -- any more than that any other "race" of people are all beautiful. Does a hybrid flower detract from either flower from which it was drawn just because it is beautiful? Does the statement that a particular hybrid is beautiful imply in ANY way that ANY other flower is not beautiful -- even equally beautiful? Is it racist to claim that one can kind of tell if a person appears to be of mixed race? Really? Sure, there are exceptions, but you really can't tell if a person appears to be of mixed ancestory? |
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10 Jul 07 - 05:41 PM (#2099161) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Little Hawk All races and colors are beautiful. On the Medicine Wheel of North American Indians there is a sacred being standing at each of the 4 points of the compass. They are of the 4 races...White, Yellow, Black, and Red. Each is equally important. Each embodies certain archetypes of the human race. All of them are equally beautiful, in their own fashion. |
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10 Jul 07 - 05:44 PM (#2099163) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,dianavan I don't know about anyone else but in the context of this thread, I thought we were talking about inter-marriage and diversity. Susan has already said, "Again, apologies for plain speaking if it offends." Plainly speaking, I enjoy diversity and prefer to live without racial distinction. I am happy that the barriers have been broken down and that we can share cultures. Personally, what I find visually attractive is beautiful. There are other kinds of beauty as well. I agree that when you get to know someone, you can usually find something very beautiful about them. As the old saying goes, "Beauty is as beauty does." However, when you don't know the people (my experience in Arizona) the only measure of beauty is visual. If you want to start your own thread about what you find beautiful, Azizi, go for it. I thought it was a given that each individual has different definition of beauty. Lets face it, beauty is a pretty broad category. Personally, I don't let society determine what I think is beautiful. You can pity the ugly if you wish but then you will have to define ugly. In Arizona, I found that ugly was a combination of unhealthy, bleached out and grumpy. Add to that an attitude and too much money. Compare that to healthy, colourful, smiling and happpy and you may understand what I mean. I usually avoid discussions involving race but in this case, I thought we were really talking about erradicating discrimination base on racial segregation. I have often thought that if we could overcome that obstacle and join hands, the corporate elite would have a more difficult time with their 'divide and conquer' strategies. I agree with McGrath, I hope racial discrimination becomes wierd and incomprehensible. Of course then we will have to break down the class barriers, sexual discrimation and ageism. I think the baby boomers should be applauded for even attempting to tackle those big issues. With racism on its way out and a growing awareness of sexual discrimination, maybe the next generation can concentrate on class barriers. I think the baby boomers will be able to tackle 'ageism'. Wow, class barriers. Now thats a challenge. The caste system still exists but with a brand new face. Some may still prefer to think in terms of black and white but, personally, I prefer shades of grey or in this case, brown. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:05 PM (#2099182) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi meme (Pronounced "meem") An idea, thought or piece of information that is passed from generation to generation through imitation and behavioral replication. Coined by Richard Dawkins in his 1976 book "The Selfish Gene," memes and memetics are the cultural counterpart to the biological study of genes and genetics. Using the evolution analogy, Dawkins observed that human cultures evolve via "contagious" communications in a manner similar to the gene pool of populations over time. http://www.answers.com/topic/meme?cat=technology ** "We are what we are. If one's standard of what constitutes beauty is of white, white skin, that is what one will resonate to." Does anyone here deny that there was a time when there was only one standard of beauty in the USA-white, white skin was one prerequisite. And blue eyed, blond haired women were considered to be the most beautiful type of White female. Having just one standard of physical beauty is problematic for the folks who don't fit that standard since it may cause them to feel that they are "less than" those who meet those mass media and community supported standards. It may also cause them to be treated as "less than" those who meet those standards. Having just one standard of physical beauty is also problematic for the folks who meet that standard since it may cause them think that they more than those who don't meet those standards and may result in them being treated better thus creating anger, jealousy, resentment, and valid charges of unfair treatement. If minds are changing and if there is now more than one standard of female beauty {and male beauty} in the USA, GREAT. My concern is that-for whatever reason/s-it appeared that folks were replacing one lone standard of physical beauty-white skin-for another lone standard of physical beauty-brown skin, at least the type/s of brown skin [and other physical features ?]that for some reason or reasons people think are unique to people of mixed racial ancestry. And dare I remind folks that African Americans are a mixed racial people and that African Americans range from folks who have lily white skin to folks who have blue black skin? Yep. I dare. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:09 PM (#2099185) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: frogprince What "race"? The human race has evolved into gene pools with different skin tones, and tendencies to other different physical nuances. For a myriad of reasons, it's common for those differences to correlate with cultural differences. It's naive, so un-diplomatic that it's dangerous, and utimately disrespectful, to try to ignore those cultural differences, let alone play "my culture is better than your culture". Perhaps the best thing about "interracial" marriage is simply that more people are not eliminating possible partners for invalid reasons, and less people are ostricizing "mixed" couples for such reasons. As to "who's beautiful", I'll confess to taking a measure of delight in what is so far the less commonplace; but I hope I'm not ass enough to actually make either "purity" or admixture a measure of worth or an actual "standard" for beauty. Our baby nephew is your basic white kid. Our baby neice has a white parent and a decidely black parent. Either one of the little critters just melts me down in my socks. (Wonder if I'll find I've made some of the people angry, or all of the people angry?) Dean |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:10 PM (#2099188) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Correction: Having just one standard of physical beauty is also problematic for the folks who meet that standard since it may cause them to think that they are better than those who don't meet those standards and may result in them being treated better thus creating anger, jealousy, resentment, and valid charges of unfair treatement |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:11 PM (#2099189) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "Does anyone here deny that there was a time when there was only one standard of beauty in the USA" Yes. I do. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:27 PM (#2099206) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Okay, John. You are correct that some Americans held and articulated other standards of beauty. Perhaps I should have said "Does anyone deny that there was a time when there was only one standard of beauty that was articulated and promoted by the the mainstream media in the USA? And-furthermore-does anyone deny that the preeminent standard of female physical beauty in the USA was White females with blue eyes and blond hair?" |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:32 PM (#2099213) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "Does anyone deny that there was a time when there was only one standard of beauty that was articulated and promoted by the the mainstream media in the USA? And-furthermore-does anyone deny that the preeminent standard of female physical beauty in the USA was White females with blue eyes and blond hair?" Yes. I do. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:41 PM (#2099220) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: frogprince God only knows just how far back in western history that standard for beauty goes. Shakespears' audiences most certainly agreed with him that any lover who saw "Helen's beauty in a brow of Egypt" had to be somewhat deranged by his love to do so; just "common sense" for generation after generation of white people. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM (#2099223) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Alright. If you are saying that in the past the USA mainstream media articulated and promoted multiple standards of physical beauty that encompased more than white skin, I disagree with you. I believe that in the not too distant past-like up till about the 1970s-the mainstream American media articulated and promoted one lone standard of physical beauty for females. The first prerequisite was white skin-well, perhaps it was sun tanned white skin. And I believe that any fair historical review will support my claim that the epitome of female beauty in the USA has long been-and to some extent still remains-White women with blond hair and blue eyes. However, I believe that the USA mainstream media is moving or has moved away from having that lone standard of beauty. And, with regard to that, I say good for it-or rather, good for us. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:44 PM (#2099224) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: frogprince John, your intention is so good, but I don't know how you can not realize the reality of what Azizi is saying. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:50 PM (#2099230) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow "the preeminent standard of female physical beauty" - that's very likely true so far as rubbishy media and beauty parades go. But when it comes to what real live people think makes for being beautiful, I think it's pretty clear that it's always been a whole lot wider than that, with skin colour, eye colour and hair colour not being too significant. |
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10 Jul 07 - 06:53 PM (#2099233) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Bee-dubya-ell Mixing races is a terrible idea! Just because someone runs a great 100 meter dash doesn't mean he's going to be any good in a marathon. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM (#2099237) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly bwl lol! |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:07 PM (#2099246) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "John, your intention is so good, but I don't know how you can not realize the reality of what Azizi is saying." Because there is not now, nor has there ever been a monolithic presentation by the media, or anyone else of repute, telling us that there is one kind of beauty. That is bullshit. Azizi has the temerity to present white America as monolithic (and monolithically racist). That's rich. White America votes 50/50. How monolithic is that? Black America, on the other hand....um...how does it vote? How monolithic is that? I'm tired of being tagged with how Azizi thinks white people are ..... the implication being that I am the racist, when clearly it is she who sees everything as a racial issue. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:10 PM (#2099249) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,dianavan Somewhere (in my growing up years) I learned not to let the media think for me. We all know that hollywood has long determined the criteria of what is beautiful in mainstream U.S.A. The fashion industry also plays a prominent role in determining what is beautiful. Sure there are people who fall prey to those illusions but lets hope that most people are not quite so vulnerable. If they are, you should attack Hollywood and Milan, not individuals. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:19 PM (#2099256) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow Is it fair to say that in America the Elephant in the room is race, and in England it is class? |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:35 PM (#2099271) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "Is it fair to say that in America the Elephant in the room is race," No. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:37 PM (#2099272) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "the elephant in the room" is a cliche' meaning --"that which is huge but not talked about." We talk plenty. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:39 PM (#2099274) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi John Hardly, I have never said nor have I ever implied that you are a racist. I don't know you well enough from reading Mudcat threads or otherwise to call you a racist or imply that you are a racist. I also have never said nor have I implied on Mudcat or elswhere that White Americans are monolithically racist. Nor do I think that. I have said on Mudcat and elsewhere that there are White people who are racist and there are non-White people {including Black people} who are racist. With regard to the discussion about mainstream America's articulation and promotion of a sole physical standard of female beauty: I think the idea that the foremost standard of female physical beauty in the USA {and perhaps also in most other "Western cultures"} was a blue eyed blond White woman wasn't as much a racial construct as a societal construct. In other words, I believe that for many people-White and non-White, it was just taken for granted that that was the standard of beauty that the society believed in. I may not be explaining properly, but I think there are-or at least there can be-differences between a racist construct {a way of thinking} and a societal construct {a way of thinking that may sometimes inadvertantly and/or sometimes purposely support racism but is not always nor was it meant to be racist}. As to how White Americans vote compared to how Black Americans vote, I don't believe that has anything to do with this discussion. |
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10 Jul 07 - 07:56 PM (#2099284) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow When does a metaphor become a cliche? The point about the Elephant in the room is that even when people are affecting to ignore it its presence tends to dominate the scene. The distinction Azizi makes there between a racist construct and a societal construct is analogous to the distinction that has been made in England in relation to the police (for example) between cases of individual racism, and institutional racism, where those involved are not racists. |
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10 Jul 07 - 08:12 PM (#2099291) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly Yeah, you got me there MofH. I said "cliche" when I meant "metaphor". That changes everything. |
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10 Jul 07 - 08:58 PM (#2099317) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: artbrooks I would have to agree with Azizi that, until relatively recently, the "standard of female beauty", as defined by the print and video media, was a white woman. I have to disagree, however, that this standard required blond hair and blue eyes. As a young teen, my ideal was Annette Funichello. Sophia Loren, Elizabeth Taylor, Gina Lollobrigida, Leslie Caron and Maureen O'Hara all did quite well in the hyper-racist mid-20th century, and none of them had either blond hair or blue eyes. White, blond and blue-eyed was more the definition of the bimbo than of the true beauty. |
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10 Jul 07 - 09:16 PM (#2099335) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Bobert I say... ...mix the crap outta it until... ...there are no more folks who look like Dick Cheney... Then maybe they won't act like him, too... B~ |
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10 Jul 07 - 09:44 PM (#2099358) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Bill D I was wondering how I had missed a thread on this topic with 50 posts....I have up above the line a lot today. I simply do not care what a persons color is...but I AM very aware of it most of the time, as it 'tends' to indicate what culture they consider themselves members of. I do not care, for example, whether the President...or my neighbor... is named Obama, Gonzales, Smith or McGregor. But I do care whether he speaks the basic language of this country and behaves in a cooperative way when speaking to ME. Race is 'metaphysically' irrelevant, as it IS based, as Mrrzy says, on heritage determined by geography and differential adaptation to sunlight and weather. As we move & travel more, there WILL be more 'browning' or whatever we want to call it. Nevertheless, there will also remain basic culture and language...at least for many, many more generations. France will likely guard its culture and language...as will the Japanese, Brazilians and Iraqis...etc..no matter what the residents LOOK like! Still, as long as 'racial' mixing keeps occuring faster than cultural adaptation, 'race'...meaning basic identification by color and language...will continue to be an issue in many countries. There simply is no doubt that most people's instinct is to trust, associate with and live near, those who look & especially talk, like themselves...(they sometimes guess wrong, but next time they still play the odds). Tiger Woods has been mentioned...he HATES being 'identified' as simply 'black' when his mother was Asian! I see his point....he is a slightly dark-skinned guy of mixed cultural heritage who just happens to be a good golfer...and Obama has a similar story. Tiger's wife is Caucasian...their new baby is quite a mix. It's time to re-think what we should list ourselves as on forms we have to fill out....even though I am pretty durned pale! (I sunburn so easily...and having one Native American great-great grandmother didn't help a bit!) Blending of ethnic diversity IS the future of the world...unless.....unless fuel shortages and religious and political feuds keep people from traveling much. Remember...in some places, like China and Japan, there is much less immigration than in the US or parts of Europe. (I keep thinking of more issues, points, disclaimers and sub-issues...it is VERY hard to stick to one point in a topic like this) Will various forces "turn the country brown."? Maybe...but not in OUR lifetime...we will have to see what all those resisting 'browning' do as the change progresses. |
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10 Jul 07 - 11:55 PM (#2099432) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Stringsinger One of the greatest American ambassadors to the world was Louis Armstrong. He fought for integration while being criticized by white right-wing nuts as well as militant blacks who called him "Uncle Tom". He always championed integrated bands and lived by that. He was one of the greatest American musicians that ever lived in my opinion. I love jazz and I loved what he did. This country was built on ethnic diversity. The white man stole from the Native American, Mexican and the Black People and exploited them without mercy. They nonetheless have always been the fabric of real America. Unfortunately, the US Constitution took its time to acknowledge this. If there is no ethnic diversity, there is no America...it would be a sham. White folks would do well to learn from other cultures, colors and stop worrying about the so-called "browning" which is going to be a non-issue as races assimilate through intermarriage. A bigger problem today is biodiversity. Will mankind be around or will mankind dig its own grave? Frank Hamilton |
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11 Jul 07 - 12:20 AM (#2099446) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,mg I don't know about the blond as the only beauty. There certainly are stereotypes of beautiful Mexican women in the Southwest (I am thinking long ago), beautiful black or red-headed Irish women, beautiful Italian women....Creole certainly...some groups are left out to be sure...until WWII probably Japanese women for example .....the blond was very likely off limits for religious reasons to many people and they would have probably been off limits for her..I bet she the stereotype was a farm girl with Danish ancestry and was a Lutheran....and yes she was very pretty and probably healthier than a lot of the women living in tenemants and catching TB and fighting off rats...And she the blond Danish girl it is said escaped from poverty faster than others because she was willing to be a maid and some like the Irish it is said just did not want to go that route, although my ancesters did. and many did...mg |
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11 Jul 07 - 12:30 AM (#2099451) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing Well thought out as usual, BillD. Thanks. ...clearly it is she who sees everything as a racial issue. That's certainly the way it seems. I like what this guy has to say: from HERE Decent people should seek balance instead -- to make race neither smaller than it is nor larger. Because race is neither a defining facet, nor a demeaning facet, of individual identity. It's a facet, period. Unfortunately, much of what passes for racial dialogue in this country is the chatter of two extremes: the Afrocentric-to-the-point-of-paranoia one that says race matters always, and the ''colorblind'' one that says it matters never. That's a false dichotomy. Race matters when it matters, and it doesn't when it doesn't. So there's no need to reconcile what I said about color with what King said, because there is no dissonance. He didn't say avoid color, ignore color, pretend it doesn't exist. The key to what he said lies in four words: ''Not be judged by.'' |
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11 Jul 07 - 02:18 AM (#2099487) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie To me, Azizi, it seems that you are presenting and defending a premise that really does not exist. And it may never have. I don't know what historical evidence would show- you may be right that blonde, blue-eyed women were considered the ultimate in beauty but I don't think so. * It would be interesting to know the percentage of blonde versus darker haired women in the USA beauty pageants. I suppose one could check it out but I'm not quite interested enough to attempt it. * I agree that blonde, blue-eyed girls have more often been called 'angelic'. But that is a different subject. * The blonde woman for some time has been the standard bearer for vacuous stupidity. The brunette for a long time had/has been considered much smarter. Take a look at Betty and Veronica in the Archie comic books, for just one example. And take note of all the 'blonde jokes'. The redhead is the only other one that became stereotyped as having a fiery temper. But smart. * I read somewhere that more people in the world agree that Thai women are beautiful than those of any other 'race'. There are not too many blonde, blue-eyed Thais. |
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11 Jul 07 - 06:46 AM (#2099614) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi First, I want to clarify the comments that I made in my 10 Jul 07 - 03:43 PM In that post I said that "In my not at all humble opinion, you guys and gals are engaging in stereotypical thinking." -snip- My use of the word "stereotypically thinking" was purposeful. See these definition of "stereotype" : n. 1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image. 2. One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stereotype In using the word "stereotype" with its racial cultural connotations, I also meant to imply that repeated statements that boil down to "interracial mating results in beautiful children" could result in the creation of prejudgements about physical standards of beauty that could have considerable negative impacts on those who did not meet that standard of physical beauty, and those who do meet that standard. To those who meant their statement about mixed race children being beautiful to refer specifically to those mixed race children or mixed race persons who they personally know, I apologize for my broad brush assertion that you were engaging in stereotypical thinking. However I stand by my point that it does appear to me that many posters to this thread were articulating a new "meme" that "interracial children=beautiful children". I stated that "It's very sad if this is what it takes for the USA and the world to move away from the once firmly held belief that white descriptors of physical beauty are the only standards of beauty that can ever exist". I stand by that statement. Note that I used plurals in talking about "white descriptors of physical beauty" and "standards of beauty". While I did refer to "the USA and the world" having these "once firmly held standards", in that comment and in my other comments on this thread, I focused on "the USA and perhaps also in most other "Western cultures"}". Therefore, my comments did not include standards of beauty in Thailand or other Asian countries. I would now like to address the comments I made in my 10 Jul 07 - 07:39 PM post. In that post, I told John Hardly that "I have never said nor have I ever implied that you are a racist. I don't know you well enough from reading Mudcat threads or otherwise to call you a racist or imply that you are a racist." -snip- Those comments apply to all other posters on this thread. That said, I admit that I feel that I am more familiar with certain posters on this thread than with others-as a result of reading and exchanging comments with them over time on Mudcat's public forum and as a result of exchanging comments with them through Mudcat's private message system. I would emphatically say that I don't consider those persons to be racist. I started to post the names of these Mudcatters, but felt it might not be appropriate for me to do so as some might think that I was saying that I consider those posters whose names are on that list as being more accepting of other races/ethnciities than those whose names happened not to be on that list. Of course, what I think about this subject matters no more than what anyone else thinks. However, my sincerest apologies to those who may have thought that I was categorising them or others on this thread as racist. As to the view that I am a racist, while I emphatically deny that charge, I will not expend energy at this time and in this place trying to defend myself from that pernicious label. |
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11 Jul 07 - 06:59 AM (#2099628) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi With regard to my assertion that blond haired, blue eyed White women has been the foremost standard of physical beauty in the USA and "perhaps in other Western countries", by using the key words "blond standard of beauty" in the google search engine, I found numerous articles that confirm this position. Here is a longish excerpt from one of those articles: Wilson, M. (in press) Pale Perfection: White Women in Pursuit of an Aryan Ideal. In Jhana Sen Xian (Ed.) Skin Trading. Women, Class, and Skin Color. http://condor.depaul.edu/~mwilson/multicult/white.html "...Most of the other (White) girls in our neighborhood took similar measures to lighten their hair. In addition, many of us had mothers who regularly dyed their hair blond, albeit they had it professionally done at beauty salons. This blonding was never anything we analyzed at the time; it was just something we did because we thought it made us look prettier. Today, though, I reflect more deeply on why and where my desire for blond hair (and blue eyes) originated. According to Marina Warner, author of From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairly Tales and Their Tellers, blondeness has long been associated with women who were idolized and adored. Dating back to the ninth century, Homer first described the Goddess of Love's tresses as being xanthe, or golden. From the fifteenth century onward, the Virgin Mary was frequently portrayed in artwork as being a blond, even by Italians such as Botticelli who painted Aphrodite rising from the sea wearing only blond hair. Many Black Madonnas, including the statue of Monstserrat in Spain, are similarly portrayed with blond hair. John Milton's classic seventeenth century work Paradise Lost also describes Eve -- the ultimate Western symbol of femininity -- as possessing "golden tresses." Even in most fairy tales, the "fair" maiden nearly always had blond hair. In fact, throughout much of Western literature, blondes have been overly represented as angels, saints, and goddesses.1 Such was the media influence of its day. The notion that blond women might also be simmering reportedly first appeared -- at least in this country -- during the late nineteenth century, after a troupe of peroxided erotic dancers from England came to tour. 2 Gradually, the stereotype that blonds were sexually charged, and not just virginal, began to take hold. Later, Hollywood also did its part to fuel the fantasy of blonds being hot with the introduction of such bombshells as Mary Pickford, Jean Harlow, and Marilyn Monroe. In more recent years, there have been dozens of other top blond stars, including Michelle Pfeiffer, Meg Ryan, Melanie Griffith, Daryl Hannah, Kim Basinger, Ellen Barkin, Elizabeth Shue, and Sharon Stone. But it was the brilliant campaign slogan "Blondes have more fun," that first appeared in the sixties for Clairol hair products, that really promoted the image of blonds as superior, fun-loving kind of women.3 The power of this more recent image of blond haired women is reflected in the findings of one social psychological study on first impressions. When White male and female research participants were asked to form judgements about different White woman, stereotypes emerged as a function of their hair color. That is, when a woman was brunette, she was judged to be intelligent, ambitious, and sincere, but when she was blond, she was judged to beautiful, delicate, dangerous, and unpredictable.4 Interestingly, the association of danger and unpredictability with blond hair may have been shaped by Hollywood, as well. The casting of such blond beauties as Lauren Bacall as the femme fatale in the film noire classic The Big Sleep (1946) may have led some viewers to re-evaluate their notions of blonds as calculating. And there have been other murderous blonds since then including Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct (1992). Yet blonds are also sometimes stereotyped as stupid and shallow, as reflected in the recent rash of dumb blond jokes. According to cultural critic Camille Paglia, however, such jokes are best be understood as a way of rectifying the many social advantages conferred on women with "blond ambition." That is, such put downs serve to be put blond women who might otherwise be too powerful back in their place... The belief that being in possession of blue eyes and blond hair is a good thing is additionally indicated by one of the few studies specifically exploring feature preferences among Whites. In a 1994 article, Lora Jacobi and Thomas Cash reported that 91.3 percent of White women with blue eyes thought that blue eyes were ideal, with a whopping 87 percent of them believing that men thought so, too. Interestingly, in reality, only 37.9 percent of men claimed that their beauty ideal was a woman with blue eyes. Among non-blued eye women, only 15.2 percent rated blue eyes as ideal, but still an impressive 78.3 percent of them believed that men preferred their girlfriends to have blue eyes. A similar pattern emerged around hair color. Among those with blond hair, 92.9 percent rated blond hair as ideal, with half believing that men thought so, too. In reality, 34.8 percent of men said they preferred women with blond hair. Among brunettes, only 19.1 percent rated blond hair as ideal, but 45.8 percent nonetheless thought that men liked blond hair the best. In other words, while thankfully most of the White female respondents in the study appeared to be satisfied with the color of their own features, many of them nonetheless still assumed that men desired them to look specifically Nordic in appearance. Interestingly, a gender difference in preference beliefs also emerged in the data such that 84 percent of all the female participants, regardless of their own hair color, believed that men preferred blonde women, but only 49 percent of the male participants believed that women preferred blond men... Although the Jacobi and Cash study was conducted on a US college population, the preference for blond hair and blue eyes is hardly limited to Whites living in this country. For example, in Italy, despite the renown of such Sicilian beauties as Sophia Loren, it is the northern Italian women with their blond hair and blue eyes who are considered by many to be the most desirable. The same preference for fair featured women holds throughout many countries in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. In particular, the darkness of Gypsies is deemed undesirable in this area of the world. It is also understood by many of those of the Jewish faith there that the comment, "She doesn't look Jewish," especially when referring to a woman with light colored hair and eyes, is nearly always meant as a compliment. Even in South America, where much of the indigenous population has brown skin and dark eyes, a disturbingly high percentage of its female pop culture stars (e.g. Brazil's Xuxa) and models look more like they originated from a Scandinavian nation than a Latino one... -snip- This article goes on to address attitudes regarding skin color among Black people, among other subjects. |
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11 Jul 07 - 07:06 AM (#2099635) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: beardedbruce " In a 1994 article, Lora Jacobi and Thomas Cash reported that 91.3 percent of White women with blue eyes thought that blue eyes were ideal, with a whopping 87 percent of them believing that men thought so, too. Interestingly, in reality, only 37.9 percent of men claimed that their beauty ideal was a woman with blue eyes. Among non-blued eye women, only 15.2 percent rated blue eyes as ideal, but still an impressive 78.3 percent of them believed that men preferred their girlfriends to have blue eyes. A similar pattern emerged around hair color. Among those with blond hair, 92.9 percent rated blond hair as ideal, with half believing that men thought so, too. In reality, 34.8 percent of men said they preferred women with blond hair. Among brunettes, only 19.1 percent rated blond hair as ideal, but 45.8 percent nonetheless thought that men liked blond hair the best. " Be careful- you are on the verge of making an unstated comment about women vs men in regards to what is considered beautiful!! "only 37.9 percent of men claimed that their beauty ideal was a woman with blue eyes." "In reality, 34.8 percent of men said they preferred women with blond hair." The "blonde, blue eyed ideal" seems to be applicable to women, NOT to men. |
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11 Jul 07 - 08:01 AM (#2099659) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi "The "blonde, blue eyed ideal" seems to be applicable to women, NOT to men".-beardedbruce Yes, it appears so. And my comments in this thread about this standard of beauty have referred to females and not males. It seems to me that because the USA is increasingly becoming "browner" in population because of immigration, interracial births, and births to African Americans, Latinos, and other "brown" people who are citizens of this nation or who live in this nation, it would benefit Americans to work through the realities, the implications, and the possible consequences of our traditional ideas about what constitutes female-and male- physical beauty. To expand on what I said in my first post to this thread, it's my hope that this country and the rest of the world embraces the view that physical beauty comes in all skin colors, eye colors, shapes, and features. |
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11 Jul 07 - 08:11 AM (#2099663) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: beardedbruce IMO, I have seen examples of beautiful people from most ethnic and "racial" groups- Perhaps beautiful by different standards, but all beautiful. And I have seen less attractive examples , again from all groups. I understand where you are seeing the "Blue eyed blonde" ideal, but I do not believe that it has ever represented the majority of male viewpoints in the Western culture(s). And since those cultures have been dominated by males at least up into the 1980s, I fail to see "that blond haired, blue eyed White women has been the foremost standard of physical beauty in the USA and "perhaps in other Western countries", " I do agree that the media has presented that view: it is just not reflected in the culture as a whole. ( besides, you left out stright haired, properly shaped nose and lips, and hour-glass figure- ALL presented by the media as the ideal.). |
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11 Jul 07 - 08:54 AM (#2099695) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Rapparee I think that my blind friends see more personal beauty than I ever will. |
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11 Jul 07 - 09:04 AM (#2099705) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: wysiwyg 1. My examples included people of a variety of ethnic heritages. (My thanks and a salute to those who noticed.) 2. It's hard to talk about paella without mentioning paella. Some of us might not pronounce paella correctly... Too bad! 3. I am really not interested in having conversations derailed by accusations about the words used, in general. 4. Speaking personally for just myself, I am heartily sick of people complaining (to me, about me, or less directly) about how I express myself instead of addressing the POINT. In bluntspeak: Religion, race, whatever the basis-- or the word to refer to THAT-- I don't have TIME for that crappy approach. 5. The POINT was that something is changing right before our eyes. Is it fast enough? No. Is it perfect? No. Is it permanent? No. Does it undo, equal, or amend, ameliorate, heal, [word of your choice] past injustices? No. Is it a good thing? YES. Is it worthy of notice? YES. Is it worthy of celebration? YES. Plainspeak: Native Americans (the remnants of the "redskins") must be flipping to see "white" people embracing "mixed" races being celebrated, now. BTW I don't mean HERE. I mean, in the culture. ~Susan |
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11 Jul 07 - 10:35 AM (#2099798) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow Pedantic note: blondes are female, but blonds are male. Just to avoid confusion. |
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11 Jul 07 - 12:18 PM (#2099895) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie "Therefore, my comments did not include standards of beauty in Thailand or other Asian countries." Azizi Azizi, you may have not noticed what I actually said. I reported that, worldwide, people agreed on Thai women being the most beautiful of all. In other words, the world over, the people surveyed perceived Thai women as meeting the highest standards of beauty of each race and culture. I understand the article(s) you posted; I just don't agree. I think the longest article is superficial and pop-culture driven. I would never accuse you of being racist, Azizi, but I think you are stereotyping. |
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11 Jul 07 - 02:09 PM (#2099998) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Richard Bridge I should like to support what Azizi is saying here on two fronts - although in the past I have been cautiously critical of her for what seemed to me excessive focus on issues of race. I think she is right that the mainstream idea of beauty in western cultures has been the peautiful plond(e) Aryan. I also think she is right in seeing a different sort of racial discrimination in valuing those from a range of gene pools as "better" than those who are not. A true lack of discrimination implies just that - non-differentiation on grounds of race. So differing types of beauty should be equally valued. As the judge at Crufts should not prefer a German Shepherd Dog to an Old English Sheepdog because of the breed, but by the standards of the respective breed standard, so ought we to value equally the different standards of beauty. But also, as a judge at Crufts would criticise a Pointer for having light eyes, or a Weimaraner for brown ones, so ought we to regret, rather than celebrate, the possible disappearance of aspects of appearance that follow from recessive genes - like blue eyes, or red hair (two I happen to be aware of) or any other recessive gene characteristic that is not hazardous in medical terms to the possessor. |
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11 Jul 07 - 03:11 PM (#2100084) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: frogprince Having had a chance to drop back and think a little further: I still would say that "white is beautiful" has, regretably, long been the standard in the western world. But I doubt that there has ever been a time when the typical male was really blind to the attractiveness of a vibrant non-white woman. My own observation would be that a fraction of deeply racist people are actually unable to see physical beauty in whatever group they detest. As to "blond and blue eyed": I've heard it said that blue-eyed blond babies were always the first adopted; If there is any real truth to that, it would be about the only instance of the blue-eyed blond standard being significant. As others have noted, that standard has been promulgated at the level of pure cultural fluff, largely by Hollywood. So far as what anyone really thinks, I believe you would search a long time to find three American men who would kick Jennifer Lopez out of bed for not looking scandanavian. :) Dean |
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11 Jul 07 - 03:37 PM (#2100121) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing One of the reasons Hollywood started out with a preference for blonde actresses was apparently because blonde showed up better on black and white film. |
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11 Jul 07 - 04:45 PM (#2100183) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Riginslinger When I saw the lead-in "USA Browning," I thought it was a thread on firearms. |
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11 Jul 07 - 05:18 PM (#2100218) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself I thought it was about global-warming. |
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11 Jul 07 - 07:30 PM (#2100328) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow Then there is the poet Browning - who coioncidentally, under the American "one drop" criterion, would have probably counted as "black", as would his wife. There'll come a day when that "one drop" thing will have the same significance in relation to African ancestry as it does today in the other case I mentioned in an earlier post, Irish ancestry (especially on St Patrick's Day). It'll be something people will be eager to claim, even when their claim might be a bit dubious. Roll on that day. |
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11 Jul 07 - 10:39 PM (#2100452) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Tinker I've been reading this over a couple of days and hesitated to step in. As the parent of 4 bi-racial (African American/Caucasian) kids I clearly have a bit of a bias. I have discovered (as have they) that the blurring of the lines cause many folks to assume they share heritage. They have been invited to India to meet the family of friends where they look like the cousins.... Italian, Puerto Rican,Native American.... I've fould most folks assume their background is the one they are most comfortable with.... Azizi, I know one of the most startling lessons for me as I learnt to walk between the color lines was the degree of shade conciousness in the African American Community. Even within families a child with darker skin maybe seen as less beautiful. I understand recessives and know as you mix things up all kinds of combinations are possible. But the reinforcement of beauty standards come from all sides. My mom spent years trying to put a curl in my long straight brown hair while my sisters-in-law tried to straighten their's.... We all need to look beyond the features to the spirit. Those I love and respect the most may not (okay I don't think a single one) be a conventional text book beauty but they glow and that reflects back in the relationship. I grew up in a white New England Mill town. And yes, my children look different than the ones I grew up with... but there is actually a College Club at George Washington University called ReMix with an abundance of members who scatter genomes all over the place. They will define the future. Our past experiences clutter up their vision. |
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12 Jul 07 - 12:08 AM (#2100473) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: M.Ted In the article which Azzizi has posted, one M.Wilson says "From the fifteenth century onward, the Virgin Mary was frequently portrayed in artwork as being a blond"--Here is a typical fifteenth century Madonna--Weeping Madonna check it out and tell me what color her hair is-- |
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12 Jul 07 - 12:10 AM (#2100476) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Tinker, you spoke truth clearly & beautifully. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Azizi |
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12 Jul 07 - 01:00 AM (#2100491) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Tinker: You mentioned that there is still color prejudice and color preferences among African Americans. In-racial prejudice has long caused a sorts of psycho-social harm to Black people in the USA and elsewhere. This is one "problem of the color line"-to quote the great scholar and activist W.E.B DuBois that was not resolved in the 20th century. I will not go into a discussion of the whys and what fors of this prejudice/preference. However, there are numerous articles and books on the subject online and off-line. ** M.Ted, I'm not M. Wilson. Nor do I know her. And I'm not interested in defending each of the assertations that M Wilson made in that article of hers whose link I provided and which I quoted at length. My point in providing that link and quoting portions of that article was to provide information and commentary on M. Wilson's major thesis-which I agree with-that blonde haired, blue eyed White women had traditionally been the favored beauty standard for females in the USA and elsewhere. As to M Wilson's assertation about the color of hair which artists have used to portray the Virgin Mary, that point surptised me as I can only recall seeing the Virgin Mary painted with dark hair. However, I am not an art scholar, not-as I indicated-am I here to critique the separate points that M. Wilson made and to which she provided supportive documentation. [And yes, I'm also aware that choosing "supportive documentation" is often done to match one's prior beliefs]. Be that as it may, there are a large number of online and off line articles and books that a person may read which address the issues of color preference and color prejudice. Persons interested in this subject have a huge number of resources that they can access. One book which I found fascinating is Frank M. Snowden, Jr - "Before Color Prejudice; The Ancient View of Blacks" The author of that book, Frank M. Snowden Jr. is a Professor Emeritus of Classics at Howard University in Washington, D.C., and one of the foremost scholars on blacks in ancient Egypt, Greece, and Italy. Among Professor Snowden Jr's awards is the National Humanities Medal [2004]. For what it's worth, Professor Snowden, Jr. happens to be a very light skinned Black man. I'm going to take the liberty of posting to this thread the entire review of this book from http://resolutereader.blogspot.com/2007/06/frank-m-snowden-jr-before-color.html Resolute Reader-One man's odyssey through the world of books; Friday, June 22, 2007 "Those who argue that racism can be overcome, or ended are often confronted with the argument that racism or prejudice has always existed. Many, particularly from the Marxist tradition have argued however that racism is a more recent invention - that there have been societies in the past (and indeed today) were racism was unheard off. For this reason, Frank Snowden's book is a fascinating read. He examines Ancient images and portrayals of the black people's of Africa in writings, sculpture and painting. His conclusions are stark, but simple. Racism, as a systematic system of prejudice and oppression or as a set of ideas that assigned stereotypes to a group of people based on their skin colour. Of course there may have been prejudices, but Snowden finds surprisingly few examples. Indeed, rather the opposite, he argues that for one society, that of Ancient Egypt, skin colour was rarely mentioned when describing someone from the regions to the south of Egypt. The "Nubian" peoples, where instead venerated as excellent warriors, often used in Egypt's armies as mercenaries. Similarly in Roman and Greek writings, were skin colour was mentioned, it was almost always in a descriptive, rather than derogatory way. Neither the Greeks, Romans or Egyptians had any systematic negative views of black people. Snowden describes contemporary descriptions of the Roman children expressing initial surprise and fear upon seeing a black person for the first time, but also compares this to modern research into childhood responses to someone of a different skin colour. Research that shows that such childlike response rarely leads to racist views in adult life. If there is a flaw in the book, it's that it doesn't really shed much light on why racism is so prevalent in modern society. One argument that Snowden gives is that the ancient people's lived side by side with black people, thus there was no shock of discovery as white and black people met for the first time. I think this is a weak explanation. There certainly were a few black and Asian people who travelled to the western lands in more recent times, and certainly (as Snowden acknowledges) the bible refers to black men and women so Christian countries would have not been living in ignorance of non-white peoples. This knowledge and fleeting encounters did not lead to racism in the way we know it. I think that it is important to say that modern racism as had a concrete starting point. This is the invention of racial explanations, by the white establishment to explain the slave trade. The brutalities of slavery could only be justified through some sort of racial demonisation and this needed to be invented. This perhaps is the missing chapter of Frank Snowden's book, though in itself the book is a clear (and beautifully illustrated) explanation of the lack of racism in the ancient past. It's worth quoting the author's conclusions at length, as his work, I believe has had to small a readership: '...in the ancient world there were prolonged black-white contacts, from an early date; first encounters with blacks frequently involved soldiers or mercenaries, not slaves or so-called savages; initial favourable impressions of black were explained and amplified, generation after generation, by poets, historian and philosophers; the central societies developed a positive image in of peripheral Nubia as an independent stae of considerable military, political and cultural importance; both blacks and whites were slaves, but blacks and slaves were never synonymous; black emigres were noT excluded from opportunities available to others of alien extraction, nor were they handicapped in fundamental social relations - they were physically and culturally assimilated; in science, philosophy and religion color was not the basis of a widely accepted theory concerning the inferiority of blacks.' " |
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12 Jul 07 - 01:01 AM (#2100493) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Correction: This sentence in my last post is supposed to read: In-racial prejudice has long caused all sorts of psycho-social harm to Black people in the USA and elsewhere. |
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12 Jul 07 - 11:22 AM (#2100695) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: John Hardly "Here is a typical fifteenth century Madonna--Weeping Madonna check it out and tell me what color her hair is--" looks kind cloth-colored. I guess that's why it's safe to assume it's blond underneath. Because the wiz-kids of afro-centrism have determined that we whiteys love blonds only, the blessed virgin MUST be blonde. Of course, I've never seen a blonde Mary depicted. Curiously, though, I did grow up with a very good Jewish friend who was, indeed, blonde -- blonde mother and sister too. So maybe Mary was blonde. |
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12 Jul 07 - 12:50 PM (#2100797) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself "looks kind cloth-colored" - silky white, to be precise. Interesting review, Azizi. The views of Snowden and the reviewer are consistent with my own impressions from my unsystematic, unscholarly reading. What we think of as 'classic' racism today was a product of 19th century thinking and politics. Not to say that racial stereotypes were non-existent previously, but that they didn't carry nearly the same weight ... |
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12 Jul 07 - 01:23 PM (#2100833) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow It's pretty unusual to have a portrayal of the Virgin Mary with blonde hair. Sometimes the hair's covered up, but when the hair shows it is pretty well always black or brown. See here for google images. And here's the google page for Black Virgin Mary images |
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12 Jul 07 - 01:45 PM (#2100851) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: frogprince Does anyone have an indication of when Biblical interpretation was first used to justify racism and slavery? I'm sure that, at the very lastest, that developed as soon as voices were raised against slavery in America. The prime example that I'm aware of would be Genesis 9:20-27. The name of Noah's son Ham is said to mean "dark', or "black". Because Ham saw his father nude and mentioned it, his son Canaan and further descendents are cursed with slavery. So, of course, it was contrary to the will of God to free black people from slavery. If the last sermon to this effect has been preached in "Amerika", I fear it hasn't been that long ago. |
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12 Jul 07 - 02:15 PM (#2100876) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow Here's a piece in today's Guardian that touches on some of the issues raised in this thread - In Brazil I glimpsed a possible future in which there is only one race: "Some time ago, Brazil's census takers asked people to describe their skin colour. Brazilians came up with 134 terms, including alva-rosada (white with pink highlights), branca-sardenta (white with brown spots), café com leite (coffee with milk), morena-canelada (cinammon-like brunette), polaca (Polish), quase-negra (almost black) and tostada (toasted)... |
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12 Jul 07 - 02:26 PM (#2100888) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie Looking at the images in McGrath's links, I wonder again at how people know that a particular image is of Mary. Who is to say that it is not an image of my neighbor, Jane Doe, or my Aunt Edna? Or maybe the Virgin Mary's best friend? The same question arises in connection with Jesus. What makes people so sure? I remember a water-stain image on the wall of a highway underpass. Even assuming one can see or visualise the image of a human being, what makes anyone say it must be of a historical figure, much less Jesus? By the way, in McGrath's link, the painting of the Weeping Virgin Mary shows fully grayed hair; nothing blonde about it. |
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12 Jul 07 - 03:16 PM (#2100920) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,dianavan "...thus creating anger, jealousy, resentment..." One side of my family was Danish and Lutheran but I was the cousin with the brown hair and green eyes. Sure, when I was a little girl I envied by cousins who looked so beautiful as Lucia Brides with their halo of candles, their white gowns, their blonde hair and blue eyes. Fortunately, I was subjected to this big difference only once a year and eventually, I found my own self-worth. Coming from a mixed-family you would think that I would grow up thinking that I was inferior but, like I said, I grew up knowing that beauty was in the eye of the beholder and that beauty is as beauty does. I did not envy the lives of my cousins because they were confined by a set of expectations that I could never abide by. I am happy that I was allowed to grow wild and free. I like my green eyes. Did I ever want to be blonde? No. Did I want blue eyes? No. Did I love my Native grandma? Yes. Was my Danish grandfather somewhat distant? Yes. Were my Danish cousins more dear than my Native cousins? No. Are their children more beautiful than mine? No. Did they have more advantages than me? Definitely not. Do I think I am more beautiful than a black woman? I never even considered it. All of the above questions are personal. What society thinks of me has little relevance compared to what I think of myself. btw - I saw a picture of Alice Walker on the cover of a magazine a while back. She was sixty years old and I marvelled at her beauty. I think its time that we all moved on from skin colour as being a measure of beauty. In fact, I think most of us have. There are those (throw-backs) that may still hold to blond and blue-eyed as some kind of ideal but that is their problem, not mine. I, for one, welcome cultural diversity and see it as a means to grow and expand. Being confined by the ideals and cultural expectations of one group is like putting your mind in shackles. We have so much to learn from one another that confining ourselves to stereotypes is just plain ignorant. Would the rainbow be as beautiful if it were only one colour? |
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12 Jul 07 - 06:28 PM (#2101077) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow I was talking about the paintings, Ebbie - pretty obviously. |
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12 Jul 07 - 06:41 PM (#2101086) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself This site, among those linked to by McGrath, discusses explicitly the racial aspects of the 'Black Madonnas'. And, just to throw a monkey-wrench into the gears, it has a picture of a blond-haired black Madonna, from France, 1930's ... |
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12 Jul 07 - 06:47 PM (#2101093) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow "pretty unusual" isn't the same as "never" - that's a monkey wrench made of putty. |
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12 Jul 07 - 06:55 PM (#2101095) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Ebbie I probably didn't linger as long and well as I should have so I didn't see identifiers. The only Black Madonna with differently-colored hair that I noticed I thought looks Russian icon-ish and shows red hair on both mother and child. Wonder about the significance of red or light hair on a Black Madonna? |
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12 Jul 07 - 06:55 PM (#2101096) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself Have you ever seen what putty can do to a set of gears? Anyway, I wasn't trying to refute what you were saying; I just found a little amusing in the context of this discussion that there would be a blond-haired Black Madonna. But then, I probably have a peculiar sense of humour ... This site, also among those others, associates the Black Madonnas with the persistence of the Mother Goddess cult: "The Mother goddess was given a black face as Demeter, goddess of fertility, in the December rites and as the Black Madonna she was thus related to the fertility and Mystery cults. Her worship was originally pagan and has been brought into Christianity due to a need for the support of the Mother. This arose in a celebration of femininity that to some extent counterbalances the ascetic, even misogynistic tendencies in the early Christian religion." |
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12 Jul 07 - 07:04 PM (#2101106) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,meself Now here's a real mix: blond hair, black face - and white hands. Maybe they're someone else's hands ... |
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13 Jul 07 - 04:32 AM (#2101370) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,dianavan O.K., so now we're getting into mythical characters with magical powers. In most myths, the characters with the most powerful magic are those who are half and half. This can be walks on earth and flies or flies and swims or half animal, half human, animals that talk, etc. In the case of the Madonna (mother Goddess), this character would be depicted in the styles of the day but with colouring that set her apart from ordinary humans. Thus the black skin, blond hair, blue eyes and white hands. In Celtic myth, the Gods had red hair with black roots and blond tips. These are the super humans. If you want to discuss colour and the how some people suffer from being 'different' than some ideal stereotype of beauty, lets talk about red-heads! Now those people are more different than anybody else. Not only do they have red-hair, they have freckles! They are a definite minority! |
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13 Jul 07 - 07:29 AM (#2101462) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi Thanks, meself for your links to Black Madonnas and your other post to this thread! ** dianavan, that's an interesting point that you've made about the reason why that visualization of the Madonna [whose link meself provided] had black skin, blond hair, blue eyes and white hands. I also was intrigued by your point that "In Celtic myth, the Gods had red hair with black roots and blond tips." In the public schools I attended, students learned about Greek & Roman Gods and Goddesses. To a much lesser degree, I recall reading in school about Scandinavian Gods and Goddesses. I can't recall there being any mention of Celtic Gods, but somehow-probably through television, movies, commercials, and other indices of mass media, I did know about leprachauns. Needless to say, there also was no mention in the public schools I attended about African Gods and Goddesses, except for the fact that pre-Christian Africans {like other pre-Christian people} people were heathens. In my adult years, I have taken it upon myself to learn something about African Gods and Goddesses, particularly-for some reasons-the traditional religions of the Yoruba {Nigeria}, Akan {Ghana} and Zulu {South Africa} peoples. In any event, dianavan, your last post motivated me to begin to rectify my ignorance about the subject of Celtic Gods by checking out the subject via the Internet. Here's one website that I found: http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/celtic-mythology.php Celtic Mythology The Gods of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Gaul Given your comment, dianavan, about red haired Celtic gods, it may be significant to note that the graphic on that website's home page shows a green faced man with long wavy red hair, red mustache, and red beard. That website provides this list of "Celtic Gods; The current Top Ten": 1st : MORRIGAN 2nd : AONGHUS 3rd : DANU 4th : DAGDA 5th : CUCHULAINN 6th : BRIGIT 7th : CERNUNNUS 8th : TUATHA-DE-DANANN 9th : ARAWN 10th: ABANDINUS -snip- I decided to click on this page for Morrigan and http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/celtic-mythology.php?deity=MORRIGAN&ds=N On that page Morrigan is described as the "The Megalithic Mother Goddess and 'The Phantom Queen'. That page also indicates that "As a shape-changer she can turn from ravishing beauty to hag, from battle crow to BEAN-NIGHE, all in triple time". That page ends with this description of Morrigan: "A Dark Green Goddess from the Emerald Isle". I also visited this page about Celtic Goddesses: http://www.paralumun.com/celticgoddess.htm That website gives this description of Morrigan: "MORRIGAN : Pan-Celtic. Also the Morrigu; "Great Queen"; "Supreme War Goddess"; "Queen of Phantoms or Demons"; "Specter Queen"; shape-shifter. Reigned over the battlefield, helping with her magic, but did not join the battles. Associated with crows and ravens. The Crone aspect of the Goddess; Great Mother; Moon Goddess; Great White Goddess; Queen of the Fairies. In her Dark Aspect (the symbol is then the raven or crow) she is the goddess of war, fate and death; she went fully armed and carried two spears. Goddess of rivers, lakes, and fresh water. Patroness of priestesses and witches." -snip- I'm not sure if this information is entirely relevant to this discussion. But I wonder what significance it is that Morrigan {and other Gods and Goddesses ?} have a dark and {I suppose the opposite would be} a light aspect. I suppose that "dark" and "light" aspect carried no negative or positive cultural connotations as perhaps they were seen as part of the wholeness of life. Given the conclusions of the Frank Snowden, Jr "Before Color Prejudice" book whose link I had provided earlier in this discussion that the Black people in the ancient world were not viewed as negative or evil, it would be wrong to say that once light skinned people met up with dark skinned people, they described themselves as light=good and dark=evil/bad. However, at some point that's what happened. It seems to me that in order for modern day peoples to really embrace racial and ethnic diversity, we may have to come to grips with the root causes of how and why these light=good and dark=bad descriptors {from religious concepts?} were foisted on groups of people. |
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13 Jul 07 - 07:58 AM (#2101474) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Azizi meself, I meant that word "post" to be the plural "posts". :0)) |
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13 Jul 07 - 09:18 AM (#2101525) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing Being a minority "redhead" (though faded, lately!) with tons of freckles and green eyes, I can relate, dianavan. I withstood a lot of teasing while growing up. Packing a fiddle case back and forth to school on the bus everyday made it even worse, but I still love my red hair, green eyes, fiddle, and even my freckles. My mom had black hair and the rest of my family hard darker, more brown hair, so I was the odd man out. My mom would tan so darkly in the summer folks thought she was Mexican; we were always told it was because she was "black Irish." |
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13 Jul 07 - 11:50 AM (#2101680) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Riginslinger kat - I've often heard the term "Black Irish," but never found anyone who knew what it meant. |
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13 Jul 07 - 12:28 PM (#2101715) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing You can find some answers in This Thread |
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13 Jul 07 - 12:37 PM (#2101725) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: M.Ted Dark/light dichotomies, in a religious context, tend to stem from Zoroastrianism, which was the prevailing religion before Christianity reared its head--light means physical light, the flame, the sun, and dark is physical darkness, as in night--in fact, a lot of the ritual and metaphor of Christianity came from Zoroastrianism--but let's not go that way-- I think that looking for ancient origins for racism is a trap--as pointed out, the idea that there might be ancient roots for racism is a way of laying the foundations for its acceptance as an unfortunate part of the human condition-- Racism is a set of lies--beginning with the idea that there is such a thing as "race", and that humans with differing physical characteristics are fundamentally different from one another. The next lie is that racism is about "race"--it isn't, it's about culture--"racism is a system that justifies the subordination and exploitation of one culture by another. When you think about it, racism only exists because an educated, literate, and allegedly Christian culture needed to be able to justify all of the nasty aspects of colonialism. "Barbarians" didn't need an intellectual justification to conquer, they did it because they could--"Christians" have to believe that they dominate because they are morally and intellectually superior-- |
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13 Jul 07 - 01:52 PM (#2101788) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: Riginslinger kat - all of that will take some research - thanks. |
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13 Jul 07 - 01:58 PM (#2101791) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: MMario frogprince - to answer your question regarding the "Ham, son of Noah"- I'm pretty sure it would be well prior to the 1500's, and I suspect probably prior to most of the Crusades - and possibly pre-Christian |
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13 Jul 07 - 03:19 PM (#2101854) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: GUEST,mg Black Irish as used by my father, who considered himself one, was an Irish person with black hair..usually pale skin..not sure of eye color. Various theories trace it to Spanish blood..in fact, if you looked at pictures of my great aunts you would wear they were Spanish. Although the name was Devery so on their father's side at least they were of some French descent. I have never heard it refer to skin color. Wikipedia said only 3% of Irish had black hair. This does not seem right to me..the ones I can think of growing up all seemed to have black curly hair. mg |
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13 Jul 07 - 04:12 PM (#2101909) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: katlaughing That's what it meant with my mom, too, mg, except for her great tan in the summertime! She and her siblings had tons of freckles, too. Her lineage is Scottish and English, but we always figured there was some Irish in there, too, esp. connected to the Scottish branch. |
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13 Jul 07 - 06:00 PM (#2101976) Subject: RE: BS: USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity From: McGrath of Harlow the Gods had red hair with black roots and blond tips. I've known some people like that. Not so much gods as changeable. |