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10 Aug 07 - 10:56 PM (#2123461) Subject: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen There are many fine songwriters here on the Cat who have had a life-long love affair with traditional folk music. I certainly have. While I've never set out to write a "fake/folk song," lines, verses, and melodies mysteriously appear, drawn from the well of all the music that I've listened to and loved all these years. I'd enjoy hearing from other songwriters who've had similar experiences, where lines appear unbidden only to be recognized later as being from a traditional song. Here's an example to start off. Many years ago, I was stopped at a traffic light and without warning the first verse of a song popped into my head: "Late last night when Uncle Willie came home He made a rattle at the door like the shaking of bones She jumped to the window and she peeked out the blind Uncle Willie's in the sheets again" By the time I'd arrived home five minutes later, I had two more verses and the song was almost finished. So, where in the world did it come from? The first line certainly sounds like the opening line of Little Sadie, "Late last night, I was making my rounds." It also has the feel of the Doc Watson song that starts out "Way down town, foolin' around." Old-Timey Music At Clarence Ashley's is one of my favorite albums, so it's no surprise that a line or two, or a general feel for a song might have come from there. Toss in The Spring of '65, and even John Johanna and I was in familiar territory. Even the name Willie, which appears in several of my songs (Willie's Dog being another) has a very folkie feel to it. The second pair of lines sounds suspiciously like: "Old mother Flipper-flopper jumped out of bed Threw open the window and she stuck out her head" I've sung The Fox for most of my life, learned from an old Burl Ives record, so the imagery is in there. I have the feeling that songs that we now call "traditional" and have raised to untouchable purity most likely came about much like this song: Uncle Willie's In The Sheets. Art has always been about borrowing and builing upon. Not Mister Thieme, although he has done his share as well. I think this would be a great topic for a songwriter's workshop. It would take a lot of advance preparation. WOuld take a little thought, too. So, get thinking... got any examples you can share? Jerry |
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10 Aug 07 - 11:10 PM (#2123465) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Cluin Are you thinking, Jerry, that when we get several lines together for a song that seem to fall out fully-formed, both quickly and easily, that we are likely drawing from the "traditional" well? I've wondered that myself, since I've had that experience of thinking, after I've written something that seems to click, "I think I've heard this before" though I can never remember where or when. |
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10 Aug 07 - 11:17 PM (#2123467) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen That's exactly what I'm thinking, cluin. Of course, my well might seem a little polluted, having rhythm and blues, blues, gospel and rock and roll in there, too. The line : "He must of got a shot of rhythm and blues" in Tennessee Earthquake is straight out of Carl Perkins. The song would have worked fine for Carl, so it made sense that that line would come tumbling out. The earthquake "happening" in Tennessee certainly draws upon my love for Sun Records, and the Tennessee Two (or Three, depending.) The song even has a line from Chantilly Lace.. "Oh, Baby, you know what I like," and "All shook up" in recognition of Elvis. Nothing is created out of whole cloth. Jerry |
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10 Aug 07 - 11:59 PM (#2123477) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: katlaughing Though I've only written a song or two, I improvise songs everyday with my grandson and he loves it. I just use folk/trad tunes and make up the words to fit what we are doing or make them about him. I know that's not what you are talking about, Jerry, but I can easily see how some of those I do make up could become family standards and be passed on. In fact, one of the very first which I sang to him to sleep with is still his favourite even though he's a "big boy" of 3.5 now. Great thread, btw. I look forward to reading the responses! kat |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:08 AM (#2123483) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Bert I steal outrageously at times, always deliberately though. The third verse of Silicone Cindy is a straight rip off from the dismantled bride, that's quite apart from the rest of the song. |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:14 AM (#2123486) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jim Lad I've had about three songs that took twenty minutes to write because that's about as fast as I could put pen to paper. Like Paul McCartney's "Yesterday", they came whole. Another, I wrote the first verse and returned to finish it four years later. When I did sit down to finish it though, it unfolded like a table cloth which had been sitting on the shelf. A few months ago, I set aside two hours to write, twice in one week and was successful to some degree with one and am very pleased with the second. Interestingly enough, the first was done on a thread here. The song was about the loss of a loved one and holding on to our "Yesterdays". Something like that. Scrump was an enthusiastic participant. It saddens me to think of him gone and I have never returned to that thread since he left us. Jeeze, I've lost me way. The second song "Highway of Tears" will be the title for my next album and has now been recorded. I have, sitting in a "Word" file, yet another song which I have yet to even sing and I know it will work for me. The process in this case though, is unlike any other I have written. I made the song up in my head over the course of a month or so and carried it around until I had the time to write it. I hardly had to think about the words as I put them down. Other songs have taken days or weeks to compose and others I'm not really sure of because I've found them in dusty old boxes, messy desk drawers and various other places but don't remember writing the half of them. Who the heck do we write for anyway? Some time back in the Nineties, I used to sit and scribble odd lines that may be useful to me later, down on scraps of paper. The paper is long gone but I think I still carry many of the lines around. Does that sound familiar to you Jerry? |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:33 AM (#2123495) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Cluin I think it was on an Austin City Limits show several years ago where I heard Roger Miller claim "I write songs I think I've heard before". |
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11 Aug 07 - 03:19 AM (#2123529) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: The Sandman Well, using modes that are used in western traditioinal music, The Dorian ,Mixolydian, Aeolian,as well as the major keys will give an authentic sound. |
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11 Aug 07 - 10:27 AM (#2123665) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Cluin I usually have a piece of song that comes out pretty quick and the rest takes some work. Sometimes an hour. Sometimes a year before I'm satisfied with it. Sometimes never. |
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11 Aug 07 - 10:32 AM (#2123666) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Cluin But... "Old mother Flipper-flopper jumped out of bed Threw open the window and she stuck out her head" also puts me in mind of some lines from "Twas the Night Before Christmas (A Visit from St. Nick)" but that might be considered part of the trad source for most of us since we all heard it countless times growing up. I hate to ask it, but "What is considered traditional?" |
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11 Aug 07 - 10:57 AM (#2123681) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Bert "What is considered traditional?" I would think for the purposes of this thread it would mean a song from your tradition. One that you have known for a long time. When I was writing Lonely Woman I had to work hard to make it different from Pretty Woman. It kept wanting to go in that (the wrong)direction. |
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11 Aug 07 - 11:49 AM (#2123716) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: mrmoe the Carl Watanabe song, "where the uplands roll" is a great example of a (relatively) modern song that sounds like it should be running on antique plates....a lovely traditional style song about a botched abortion.... |
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11 Aug 07 - 11:56 AM (#2123722) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Peace The influence of songs ya heard is a real thing, at least for me. I have often wondered and then asked people if a new melody is 'stolen' from somewhere. I can't remember what I ate for breakfast or what colour my undershorts are, but some tune I heard once when I was tey years old will pop into my head and what's THAT about. One of the very first songs I ever wrote waaaaaay back had a great melody. GREAT. Catchy as all get out. Unfortunately it was the opening descending run for the song "Surfing Safari", and that was pointed out to me by a musical friend. It was then I realized the kids from California had wonderful talent. -:) To get the creative stuff flowing I often park it and diddle with chord progressions. Part way through a set of chording runs I'll try things--wonder what happens when ya do THIS kinda thing--and if something about it sounds new or 'works', I'll put time in it and strart looking for words. Sometimes some words come first and I go looking for backup. Confucing to explain, but songwriters will know what I mean. |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:04 PM (#2123724) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Georgiansilver Most of the songs I write seem to be in (UK)'traditional style' and are often about historical happenings. Not sure why I have written them that way, it just seems to have happened.....perhaps as you say Jerry it has been intitiated by the songs I have heard and loved.... along with a reasonable knowledge of history and other Folk songs. Latest rendition:- Called "Bringing the Harvest Home" witten as a memory of harvest time and Harvest Festival when I was but a mere child. The Summertime is coming fast and the days they do grow long, I cannot wait to hear the birds, as they sing their morning song. The grain will ripen in the fields and the fruits begin to grow, The flowers will bloom with colours bright, where quiet rivers flow. (Chorus) And the sun will shine and the birds shall sing, as we bring the harvest home. The workers all will bare their chests, as the sun performs its tasks, We will take the apples to the barns, to fill the cider casks. We will take the hops to the barleycorn, to ferment they will not fail, We will drain it from the coopered vats, into the supping pail. (Chorus) And the sun will shine and the birds shall sing, as we bring the harvest home. We will feast ourselves on Summer fruits and other great delights, We will drink the cider and the ale, through the warmth of Summer nights. For the harvest in its abundance, we will all with one accord, Remove our tithes into the Church and give thanks unto the Lord. (Chorus) And the sun will shine and the birds shall sing, as we bring the harvest home. (Repeat) (Add) Come ye thankful people come, raise the song of Harvest Home. Mike Hill. (July 2007) Best wishes, Mike. |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:15 PM (#2123732) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen Hey, Jim Lad: I have a few extra lines kicking around myself, although I don't write them down. My philosophy is that if I can't remember them, they are by definition not memorable. And who wants to write songs with not memorable lines in them? More to the point, I have verses and choruses from songs I've written and been dissatisfied with that may well work in another song down the line. Those, I may keep on paper. An example: "And what can you do when the last song is played And the band is all packed up and ready to leave? Just bid them goodnight, and when you turn off the lights Say a prayer for the sailors at sea" I can't even remember the verses to the song, but that chorus lingers with me. |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:18 PM (#2123735) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen Cluin: your comment about Roger Miller brings to mind a verse from a song I wrote, remembering getting up early in the morning after a recording session at the Paton's. I was the only one up, as we'd been up late, but all the instruments were leaning against the wall. The verse is: "Down stairs, no one is waking Though the clock on the wall says a quarter to eight And the banjo and fiddle still lean by the wall With songs of their own that just wait to be played And it's almost like being back home" If there are songs waiting to be sung, there are tunes, too.. Jerry |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:22 PM (#2123738) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen Captain Birdseye. You're right... even for someone like me who can't tell a mixolidian mode from a cement mixer. There are certain tunings and chord progressions that carry all the songs already written before you. I wanted to write a black gospel song that was placed in a "traditional" Earth Angel chord progression. So much of rhythm and blues came out of the black churches, and I wanted to combine the two forms. When I sing it, most of the people in the audience can immediately start adding harmonies and doo wops. Jerry |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:23 PM (#2123742) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen I like your definition of traditon, Bert: "I would think for the purposes of this thread it would mean a song from your tradition. One that you have known for a long time." That's why for this thread, I consider All Shook Up and Chantilly Lace as much a part of my tradition as The Cukoo. |
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11 Aug 07 - 12:28 PM (#2123745) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen That's a wonderful song, Mike! Very evocative and visual. I like visual songs. And that's another way that tradition flavors our songwriting. There are particular topics, or points of view in traditional music that resonate within us. It's no surprise that eventually we may end up writing a song that reflects that influence. Songs about boats, or murders or even getting drunk come out of the well. Jerry |
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11 Aug 07 - 01:07 PM (#2123772) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Peace My apologies for interrupting the thread. I have requested that my post above be deleted. |
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11 Aug 07 - 02:03 PM (#2123802) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jim Lad Jerry: One of the things I do is to make sure that no evidence of modern inventions makes its way into the songs. I like to think that by doing this, along the the vocabulary we were raised with that the song can seem timeless as far as its origin goes. Your line, up there ..."and when you turn off the lights" would have been "Turn down" or "Blow out the lights" in any of my songs. Peace, unless it's already gone and you had another up there, your contribution is fine. Didn't even swear nor nuthin'. |
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11 Aug 07 - 02:29 PM (#2123821) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen Good point, Jim: A simple choice of words can set the time and place of a song. If I sing One, two, velcro my shoe, you might suspect that song is of more recent vintage. The line in a song I wrote, Silver Queen: "Dancing on the water for a dime" says a lot. For starters, if you're dancing on the water, you're probaly on a boat, unless you're Jesus. Dancing on a boat sounds very romantic, and when you see that it only costs a dime, you know that you're talking about a long time ago. I thought that your post was fine, Peace. I don't often write a song with instrument in hand, but I do much the same with my voice, driving in a car. I'll just start singing melodies (I'm not very good at singing chords,) and words may present themselves. Again, the melody and the chord changes I hear in my head, even if I can't sing them, will influence the mood and the type of song that's most likely to come out. Jerry |
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12 Aug 07 - 07:00 AM (#2124140) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen And then, there are songs I've written that were consciously in the style of the old ballads. Many years ago, when I was working at the Newark Museum, I was looking through some old newspapers in their archives and came across a short article about a heinous (always wanted to use that word) murder that took place in the South. It had everything you could want for a song. The man that was murdered was Colonel Soloman P. Sharp. Not Jus So Sharp. That middle initial was very import. He was murdered in his home by a man who identified himself as John Covington. Covington was a total stranger who appeared one night at his door and asked if Colonel Sharp could put him up for the night. During the night, Covington stabbed the Colonel to death and disappeared into the night. I wrote the song because I thought it was such a great story. I may have to dust it off, if I can find all the words, and do it at a workshop I'll be doing at NOMAD this year with Sandy & Caroline Paton and Frank and Barbara Shaw titled Sing Me A Story. The story's the thing. Jerry |
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12 Aug 07 - 07:45 PM (#2124437) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Perhaps not so much lines or words from the tradition, but certainly ideas, devices and rhythms. Several of my songs are traditional sounding, but, I think the following best illustrates the idea. THE PRINCE AND THE MAIDEN A young prince who went walking in some woods near Hampton Wick, Discovered that he'd lost his way, well he bein' rather thick, He came across a clearing, and he said "What's this I see? It is a fair young maiden, tied tightly to a tree". Ch. Fol de rol de diddle-O, Fol de rol de dee, It is a fair young maiden, tied tightly to a tree. He said "Fair maid, how come you to be in this parlous state, What wicked, nasty, evil villain's left you to your fate?" She said "Kind Sir, if you will only deign to set me free, I'll tell you of the wicked squire, and what he did to me". Ch. Fol de rol de diddle-O etc. Rpt last line. The prince was all agog to hear the essence of her tale, But as she was quite naked, other thoughts came to prevail, He said "Hold hard young maiden, there's the question of me fee, If I comply with your request, pray what's in it for me?" Ch. The maiden, now, was quite dismayed, "I can't believe", she said, "That you're as wicked as the squire, Oh! I were better dead", The prince was quite unruffled, as the maid began to pray, He said, as he took his doublet off, "This ain't your lucky day". Ch. The maiden stopped him with a glance, "If that's how it is", said she, "'Twere better I enjoy meself, and join in willingly, Remember that hereafter, for your crime you'll have to pay, Now cut me loose you scurvy knave, and you shall have your way". Ch. He drew his sword, and lashed out, and the rope fell down in coils, She threw her arms about his neck, said, "Come, collect your spoils", Then fervently, and ardently she kissed the dirty dog, And all he said was "Rivet!", for he'd turned into a frog. Ch. Now the young prince and the maiden have gone their separate ways, She's gone home to Daddy, and the frog in the swamp he stays, He got himself into this mess, there's nothing he can do, Till a maid agrees to kiss him. Well I ask you girls, would you? Ch. So, all who listen to me song, attention pay to me, Ne'er take advantage of a maid you find tied to a tree, For love and lust, according to two differing points of view, May change a frog into a prince, and vice versa too. Ch. Copyright Don Thompson May 1980 |
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12 Aug 07 - 08:17 PM (#2124456) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Jerry Rasmussen Thanks for posting that, Don. What fun! Jerry |
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13 Aug 07 - 10:26 AM (#2124758) Subject: RE: Traditional Influence In Songwriting From: Bert Great song Don. |