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21 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM (#2199221) Subject: Trad Ballads on taboo subjects? From: Saro This is a serious enquiry, resulting from a very good question which was asked at a recent ballad forum at Lewes Arms. There are traditional ballads about all sorts of subjects which at some time in history might have been regarded as "taboo" Ballads tell of incest, murder of the most gruesome kind, infanticide etc. However, we could not think of any ballads which deal with same sex relationships. Does anyone know any? If so, what and where are they? If not, I'd be interested in any suggestions as to why there should be this gap... Looking forward to some interesting discussion. Saro |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM (#2199241) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Campin "Zakhmi Dil", the Pathan War March, sung by British troops on one of the 19th century Afghan wars to these words: There's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach Alas I can not swim! (thanx to Lewis Redstock's book for that). The tune may be the original of "The Quartermaster's Store" - I've no idea what the Pushtu words are. The tune is now a standard in the military pipe repertoire. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM (#2199244) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: greg stephens Interesting question. Using "ballad" in the technical sense, there don't seem to be any that spring to mind. As regards folksongs, there are doubtless loads. But by the nature of the song collecting and publishing proicess, they probably got omitted from "Folksongs to be sung in schools" etc! |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM (#2199246) Subject: Lyr Add: FRIGGIN' IN THE RIGGIN' From: Rasener Friggin in the riggin, Friggin in the riggin, Friggin in the riggin, There's nothing else to do. Twas back in `69, We left the Black Ball Line, The crew did cry as we went by, For we'd left our mates behind. Twas back in `63, When the captain he went to sea, Born of a whore, was cast ashore, A son of the beach was he. A cook whose name was Davey, Was cashiered from the Navy, He dipped the bread inside the head, And served it up as gravy. The bosun's mate was Andy A Portsmouth man and randy, He used to cool his favorite tool In a glass of the skipper's brandy. The cabin boy was chipper, A nasty little nipper. He lined his ass with broken glass And circumsised the skipper. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:22 AM (#2199250) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: katlaughing Wasn't there one about two women pirates? Not Bonney & Reade . I thought there was one about two women one of whom followed the other to sea? |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM (#2199253) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: greg stephens The Handsome Cabin Boy |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM (#2199256) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: greg stephens I remember there are other threads on same sex relationships in folksong in general, rather than ballads. I won't post more till it's established whether we are just talking about ballads. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:38 AM (#2199267) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Dan Schatz There are a few ballads that sort of hint around the edges of it, if you've a mind to read it that way: "'Daughter, O daughter - daughter,' cried the king, 'Of guilt you may be free. For if I were a woman, as I am a man, My bedfellow he would be.'" -Thomas of Winesbury "Down on the ground she fell like one a-dying, Tearing her arms abroad, sobbing and signing. There's no believing men; not you're own brother - So girls, if you must love, love one another." - "The Captain Cried All Hands" Dan |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM (#2199271) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Kim C Except the handsome cabin boy was a GIRL and the captain knew it. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:48 AM (#2199281) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: katlaughing The Handsome Cabin Boy maybe as in she was bisexual or the captain raped her, yeah. I thought there was one more specifically lesbian. I cannot remember what all came up in the other threads. Have to go take a look: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs and, there's some interestng related discussion in Lesbians, Gays and folk music. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM (#2199287) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: katlaughing Ah, found this old reference posted by Janice in NJ in one of the other threads. Not what I was thinking of, but still maybe fits the original category: And in The Ball of Kerrymuir there are these lines: Oh, the Ball, the Ball of Kerrymuir, Where your wife and my wife were firkin on the floor. Presumably they were firkin each other, although they simply could have been separately firkin other parties, male or female. The lesbian possibilities add to the humor. |
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21 Nov 07 - 12:22 PM (#2199299) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Saro Greg, I was referring to traditional ballads, and British Ballads just to be more specific. And yes, we discussed Willie Of Winesbury and Our Captain cried All Hands, and the Handsome Cabin Boy. There's nothing that I've come across that is really powerful like, for example, Sheath and Knife. Dick Greenhaus suggests in another thread that "I suspect that homosexuality disturbed our forebears more than things like rape, murder and incest did. " Maybe that is the reason for the omission of this topic from ballds.... Any other ideas... Saro |
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21 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM (#2199301) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: wysiwyg Speaking of taboos, where are the songs about cannibalism? ~S~ |
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21 Nov 07 - 12:37 PM (#2199306) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Bill D "A Cannibal Maid and Her Hottentot Blade" |
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21 Nov 07 - 12:40 PM (#2199310) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Bill D But obviously, homosexuality and cannibalism were topics that would not be sung in 'polite' company much, and were not the sort of thing you'd admit to knowing to a collector....and the few mentioned seem to be mostly comic - making fun of the activity. Besides...who would you sing them TO? |
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21 Nov 07 - 01:39 PM (#2199340) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: M.Ted This subject has certainly been celebrated in Ballad. If the material isn't generally known, it is probably because of either the discretion of, or the censorship of collectors. --check this siteHomosexuality in Eighteenth Century England--which contains a number of broadside ballads, including "Molly Exalted","A Woman's Complaint to Venus", and "The Game at Flats". |
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21 Nov 07 - 01:51 PM (#2199344) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Songster Bob Not a ballad, but my friend Pete has the opening of "the blues you don't really want to hear the rest of." It goes like this: Oh, I've got a good woman, But my man don't want her 'round. Bob |
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21 Nov 07 - 02:09 PM (#2199354) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine Can't think of any songs directly about same-sex relationships, but there are certainly traditional songs which hint at attraction between members of the same sex or more often than not, via that handiest of plot devices, members of the opposite sex dressed up. Two examples that spring to mind are the Female Drummer, who's found out by a young girl who falls in love with her (the song doesn't state exactly how she finds out), and The Famous Flower of Serving Men, where the King is "beguiled" by his serving man (who of course is really a woman) There's also Willie o' Winsbury, whose beauty gets him off the hook when Janet's father admits he'd be his bedfellow too (if he was a woman of course, which he's not) |
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21 Nov 07 - 02:14 PM (#2199358) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: oggie The Men They Couldn't Hang released "Come here little boy" some 10 or 15 years ago which dealt with child abuse and related issues. Not trad of course but a powerful song an a taboo subject and almost impossible to sing pretty well anywhere. I tried once and got told in no uncertain terms that it was "not appropriate and made the audience uncomfortable" Steve |
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21 Nov 07 - 02:38 PM (#2199374) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Maybe not quite what you're looking for, but here's a broadside at the Bodleian A looking-glass for wanton Women - "By the Example and Expiation of Mary Higgs, who was executed on the 18th July, 1637 for commiting the odious sin of Buggery, with her Dog, who was hanged on a Tree the same day, neer the place of Execution; showing her penitent behavious and last speech", Tune of In Summertime. Life was curious (and hazardous)! Mick |
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21 Nov 07 - 04:12 PM (#2199443) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: katlaughing Way back when, Mudcatter "Murray" posted a bit about resources for bawdy ballads HERE when posting about the Ball of Kerrymuir, which Janice mentioned. (I realise it's got tons more verses which have nothing to do with possible lesbian affairs.) |
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21 Nov 07 - 04:31 PM (#2199459) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Bonzo3legs Any songs about bloody useless Labour governments? |
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21 Nov 07 - 07:26 PM (#2199580) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,spb-cooperator Hi Wysiwyg Re: Songs about cannibalism The ship in distress (as opposed to the ship in disorder which is about blocked heads) The Rhyme of the Nancy b (WS Gilbert) The song with Little Boy Billy - I can't remember what it is called The is anpther well known one... I'm wracking my brains to remember the title. Ahoj Steve |
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21 Nov 07 - 10:04 PM (#2199650) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST There's the Australian "The Drover's Boy" about the relationship between a drover and his aborigine jin. Not same sex, but very much taboo at the time - heck, even now in some circles. Not trad, but I am bringing out "Toni with an i" in Feb - a sympathetic look at a transgender case. |
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21 Nov 07 - 11:26 PM (#2199680) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Rowan the Australian "The Drover's Boy" was written by Ted Egan, who is now Chief Administrator of the Northern Territory. Cheers, Rowan |
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22 Nov 07 - 03:24 AM (#2199734) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,PMB Homosexual acts were subject to the death penalty in England up to the early 19th century, and imprisonment thereafter up to the 1960s, so like MCP's excellent example above, the only place to look would be in 'last confessions'- no point in looking for a sympathetic treatment. Perhaps the woman in MCP's example was lucky she wasn't proceeded against as a witch- though the outcome would have been the same. You don't (surprise?) get many sympathetic songs about paedophilia either- only murder ballads like Fanny Adams- though there is one song hanging on the edge of my memory that includes the line approximately "I know not what has come over me that I should love a child". |
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22 Nov 07 - 03:35 AM (#2199735) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Valmai Goodyear Sarah, many thanks to you and Craig Morgan Robson for a superb ballad forum, vocal harmony workshop and evening performance at the Lewes Arms a couple of weeks ago! The taboo relationships which appear in ballads are all ones which produce children, whose presence adds to the tragedy and could complicate inheritance if they survived. I wonder if the absence of children from same-sex relationships is the main reason they don't feature in the tradition; this is only a surmise. Valmai (Lewes) |
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22 Nov 07 - 04:17 AM (#2199751) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Malcolm Douglas PMB was thinking of 'I am a Brisk Young Sailor' (Roud 1042). Quite rare -three versions, I think, in the Gardiner collection, all from Hampshire. I doubt if there is any paedophiliac subtext; 'child' in this context usually just means a girl -or woman- much younger than the person describing her (as in 'child bride', a common Victorian term). Equally, the often cited examples of 'Our Captain Cried' and 'Willy of Winsbury' are really just commonplace ballad conventions and only appear sexually ambiguous in the light of what (I think) Sharp described as 'modern prurience'; it is pretty unlikely that your average traditional singer had any such thought in mind. Much thought and many words have been expended on sexual ambiguity in the plays of Shakespeare and his contemporaries, where cross-dressing as a plot device, and the fact that all parts were played by men, provide plenty of opportunity for multiple levels of meaning; but that, really, is another matter; though there is also much useful discussion on the whole 'cross-dressing' business as it applies to popular song in Dianne Dugaw, Warrior Women and Popular Balladry 1650-1850 (Cambridge University Press, 1989). There were certainly broadside songs that dealt with lesbianism, but there's no evidence, so far as I know, that any of these survived in tradition to become what would later be called 'folk songs'. That doesn't necessarily mean that none did; but it's pretty unlikely that any Edwardian singer who knew one and understood what it was about would have dreamed of singing it to a folk song collector (or any woman). PMB has explained why male homosexuality doesn't really appear in folk song; I'd add that references to it certainly appeared on broadsides, but these were usually extremely hostile; and topical, apparently not surviving in tradition. Modern composed songs are irrelevant to the question asked. Rugby and other specifically scatological songs are really the only places where you'll find references that might count as 'traditional', but these are invariably concerned with the physical act only, whether it be 'same sex', zoöphilic, or whatever. Relationships don't enter into it. For relevant historical material, see in particular http://www.immortalia.com/ |
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22 Nov 07 - 04:23 AM (#2199757) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: George Papavgeris GUEST above was me. Bloody cookies! |
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22 Nov 07 - 04:41 AM (#2199764) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work The term 'girl' usually referred to a virgin, rather than specifically a young female. Up until the 19th century, it was common for girls between 10 and 13 to be married (or at least bedded) in the country as well as in court. The age of consent at 16 was brought in to protect young girls in brothels, but as I'm at work, I can't access the site that will verify that. LTS |
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22 Nov 07 - 06:03 AM (#2199798) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: George Papavgeris Can't you just Google for "broth", to get through the filter? |
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22 Nov 07 - 06:07 AM (#2199799) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work Oddly enough, it's not 'brothel' that the office filter system has difficulties with, it's 'age of consent' that got it confused! LTS |
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22 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM (#2199806) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Saro Thanks all! By the way, my husband sings The Brisk Young Sailor, and eventually altered the line to "love a creature not long since but a child". He sings for a lot of community groups, and felt that the potential for misunderstanding the line was too great to risk. Saro |
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22 Nov 07 - 09:27 AM (#2199869) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,strad In The Common Muse (Penguin Edition) I've found the following songs: #182 The Four-Legged Elder or A Horrible Relation of a Dog and an Elder's Maid #183 The Four-Legged Quaker (this time a foal) #184 The Lusty Fryer of Flanders (who managed to get thirty nuns with child in the space of three weeks.) That's stamina! #215 The Female Husband (Married to another female for 21 years) |
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22 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM (#2199895) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: George Papavgeris Shame, Saro, I think the line is clear enough, your husband shouldn't have to alter it. Just because some people are too lazy or downright thick to understand the meaning of a simple sentence, why should he have to dumb down his material? |
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22 Nov 07 - 10:32 AM (#2199911) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: RTim At least in A Brisk Young Sailor - his does not marry the girl and goes off to sea for ever, where he has aready been for "40 years or more" - so when he says "If I was ten years older and she as old as me" - it would suggest? she is not a child? I am singing with a choir here on Cape Cod early in the New Year, and one of the songs I suggested is Colin & Phoebe (again a Hampshire version), and I made the point to the organiser that I could change the line; "With a virgen like me who is scarcely Sixteen" by making it Eighteen or even Nineteen without it altering the song. However If I had suggested Brisk Young Sailor, I wouldn't have even though for a second I needed to make an adjustment. To continue the theme (and with another Hampshire song) - You should ask Carolyn (of your own group CMR) how she feels about sing "Abroad as I was Walking" where in the 5th verse the subject of the song says: "And now I am with child by you, Scarce Fourteen years of age" Tim Radford |
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22 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM (#2199954) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,PMB If he's been at sea for 40 years or more, even if he started as a nipper, he ain't young! |
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22 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM (#2199973) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: mrmoe Carl Watanabe's "where the uplands roll"....a beautiful ballad about a botched abortion.... if you say my name where the uplands roll and the answer you get ain't very kind they'll be spoken by my hard friends of old and my hard friends of old, I don't mind I met a green eyed girl where the chaparral rolls and grows high up to meet the yellow pine her name and age best be unknown it's enough just to say she once was mine she was fair but her ways were much fairer yet and her laughter could dance against the wind her manner charmed everyone that she met 'til they held her as dear as next of kin each young man placed his wealth and his soul in her hand but none of them could be so proud for she did choose a stranger to the land and she came to me with her head bowed our wedding day would come when the spring flowers bloomed like two horses we danced into the sun the stallion pranced and the mare would follow before our wedding day a child would come soldiers kill and we honor them with fortune and fame but a baby who's harmed not one life but is early to come is bathed full in shame so must die unborn to a doctor's knife as the doctor took our unborn babe seeds of sorrow took root upon her mind in her body the poison from his unwashed blade left a wound who's cure we'd never find so if you say my name where the uplands roll and the answer you get ain't very kind they'll be spoken by my hard friends of old and my hard friends of old, I don't mind but if they say not a word about me at all but are reminded of a young girl once so fine then listen close to the words that they recall and they'll tell you of a girl who once was mine |
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22 Nov 07 - 12:40 PM (#2200002) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Charley Noble My uncle used to sing a traditional ballad titled "The Lady Who Loved a Swine", but her love was sadly unrequited. According to his notes: Many references to this rhyme, and quotations of it in part or in full, appear in 17th century English literature. As a song it survives in the oral tradition in America. It is a comic song with sad overtunes. I'd be happy to post the verses if anyone is seriously interested. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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22 Nov 07 - 12:58 PM (#2200034) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: RTim From: GUEST,PMB - PM Date: 22 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM "If he's been at sea for 40 years or more, even if he started as a nipper, he ain't young!" ===== That was my point! And I should also say I got the words wrong - of course it should have read: "If I was ten years YOUNGER and she as old as me" Tim Radford |
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22 Nov 07 - 03:43 PM (#2200163) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Campin Nothing like ballads, but Handel's Italian cantatas (written largely for homosexual audiences, first in Rome and then in England) got a bit of attention a few years ago... http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/HARHAN.html The earliest ballad on a same-sex relationship is the Epic of Gilgamesh. |
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22 Nov 07 - 07:13 PM (#2200294) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Lindsay in Wales Does the rugby song "All Queers Together" (sung to the tune of the Eton Boating Song) come into this category (by the way that was not an intended pun) and is Tim Radford, further up the thread, the same one who was a Morris Dancer for Kirtlington/Duns Tew/Adderbury 20+ years ago I was a dancer/musician for Bucknell.... |
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22 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM (#2200386) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Charley Noble So far not a serious challenger to the song my uncle used to sing. Hah! Charley Noble |
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22 Nov 07 - 10:07 PM (#2200392) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Charley Noble Well, actually there are several traditional songs that might be considered from the DT: The Gay Caballero Gay Spanish Maid Lady Gay Gay Gashawk Enola Gay (may be a stretch) A Bold Lover Gay Come all You Garners Gay (whatever a garner might be) And there's "The Lavender Cowboy" who "died with his sixgun a-blazing but only three hairs on his chest." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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22 Nov 07 - 10:31 PM (#2200403) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: RTim Yes - Lindsey in Wales, It's the same old Tim Radford, now living in Woods Hole Massachusetts. Tim R www.timradford.com |
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22 Nov 07 - 11:29 PM (#2200426) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Celtaddict The word 'gay' to indicate homosexual is such a recent usage, Charley, so pry your tongue out of your cheek and pass on your uncle's song, please! I can't be the only one interested. . . |
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23 Nov 07 - 03:52 AM (#2200498) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,PMB Well how about "My word, you do look queer"? |
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23 Nov 07 - 05:14 AM (#2200527) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Malcolm Douglas Fourteen years, Tim, not forty! The lines are: For fourteen years and over I've ploughed the ocean wide and If I was but ten years younger and she as old as me ...which is ambiguous, but can perfectly well be taken as indicating that he is only ten years older than she is; which, assuming he started at sea at the age of (say) 13 or 14, would put him in his late 20s and her, arguably, in her late teens: and, from his point of view, still a child. In the other two known versions, David Marlow sang 'fifteen years and over', while William Garratt sang 'fifty years and over', but that was probably just a mistake for 'fifteen'. I don't yet know of a broadside version of this song, but I'd expect it to have appeared in cheap print during the 19th century. If something comes up it may clarify the original intent. On another point, I hadn't realised that Carl Watanabe wrote traditional songs. He must be a lot older than Tim thought that sailor was, if his lyric is in any way relevant to the question 'Saro' asked. There is no shortage of modern songs on 'taboo' subjects. There is a recording made by John and Ruby Lomax of 'There Was a Lady Loved a Swine', sung by Kate W Jones, Houston, Harris County, Texas, 10 April 1939, at The John and Ruby Lomax 1939 Southern States Recording Trip. The words are in the DT as: The Lady that Loved a Swine. As it survives, it is a harmless nursery rhyme (and published as such in children's books), though it seems to have been just a little raunchier back in the 17th century. Did Charley's uncle have a pornographic version, by any chance? |
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23 Nov 07 - 07:24 AM (#2200586) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,PMB If I was but ten years younger and she as old as me isn't exactly saying that she's 10 years younger than him- there's that 'if'. She would have had to be seriously young for it to be disturbing in the early 19th century, for most of which the age of consent was 12. |
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23 Nov 07 - 07:56 AM (#2200602) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Big Al Whittle 'There is no shortage of modern songs on 'taboo' subjects.' Maybe thats because we ask something different of folksongs nowadays. In those days people lived for the main part in isolated communities and the ballad was like an adventure film - showing and warning them of life's extraordinary possibilities - were they to break away from their relatively safe predictable lives. There be dragons! Nowadays we look to folksong as a confirmation of our identities and common humanity, because we live in large amorphous anomic societies. |
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23 Nov 07 - 08:15 AM (#2200616) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: RTim Well Well - after all these years I have been singing "Brisk Young Sailor" and didn't know that I had been singing Forty instead of Fourteen, as in Purslow's Wanton Seed! Yes that does alter my view of the song! But won't stop me from singing it. Tim Radford |
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23 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM (#2200823) Subject: LRY:ADD: Lady Who Loved a Swine From: Charley Noble Celtaddict- Evidently you are the only one interested in the lyrics of "The Lady Who Loved a Swine" but that is sufficient: There was a lady who loved a swine, "Honey!" said she, "Pig hog wilt thou be mine?" "Grunt," said he. "I'll build thee a silvery sty, Honey!" said she, "And in it thou shall lie." "Grunt," said he. "I'll pin it with a silver pin, Honey!" said she, "That thou mayest walk out or in." "Grunt," said he. "Wilt thou have me now," said she, Honey?" said she; "Speak! Or my heart will break for thee." "Grunt," said he. My uncle was quite skilled at his grunting, and we as children were quite impressed. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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23 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM (#2200954) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Blandiver In 'Last Night I Was in the Granzie' Davie Stewart sings: 'Oh, me and the mannishee laddie, we travelled from Aberdeen tae Bonny Dundee / But we couldnae get nae stollage, we had tae bing avree.' And in Nic Cave's superlative reading of Stagger Lee: 'I'll stay here till Billy comes in, till time comes to pass and furthermore I'll fuck Billy in his motherfucking ass,' said Stagger Lee. 'I'm a bad motherfucker, don't you know and I'll crawl over fifty good pussies just to get one fat boy's asshole,' said Stagger Lee |
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23 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM (#2200976) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Big Al Whittle In the words of Private Godrey of Dad's Army, I don't like that sort of thing.......... |
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23 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM (#2200982) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Blandiver All good traditional fare; here's the ballad in full: It was back in '32 when times were hard He had a Colt .45 and a deck of cards Stagger Lee He wore rat-drawn shoes and an old stetson hat Had a '28 Ford, had payments on that Stagger Lee His woman threw him out in the ice and snow And told him, "Never ever come back no more" Stagger Lee So he walked through the rain and he walked through the mud Till he came to a place called The Bucket Of Blood Stagger Lee He said "Mr Motherfucker, you know who I am" The barkeeper said, "No, and I don't give a good goddamn" To Stagger Lee He said, "Well bartender, it's plain to see I'm that bad motherfucker called Stagger Lee" Mr. Stagger Lee Barkeep said, "Yeah, I've heard your name down the way And I kick motherfucking asses like you every day" Mr Stagger Lee Well those were the last words that the barkeep said 'Cause Stag put four holes in his motherfucking head Just then in came a broad called Nellie Brown Was known to make more money than any bitch in town She struts across the bar, hitching up her skirt Over to Stagger Lee, she starts to flirt With Stagger Lee She saw the barkeep, said, "O God, he can't be dead!" Stag said, "Well, just count the holes in the motherfucker's head" She said, "You ain't look like you scored in quite a time. Why not come to my pad? It won't cost you a dime" Mr. Stagger Lee "But there's something I have to say before you begin You'll have to be gone before my man Billy Dilly comes in, Mr. Stagger Lee" "I'll stay here till Billy comes in, till time comes to pass And furthermore I'll fuck Billy in his motherfucking ass" Said Stagger Lee "I'm a bad motherfucker, don't you know And I'll crawl over fifty good pussies just to get one fat boy's asshole" Said Stagger Lee Just then Billy Dilly rolls in and he says, "You must be That bad motherfucker called Stagger Lee" Stagger Lee "Yeah, I'm Stagger Lee and you better get down on your knees And suck my dick, because If you don't you're gonna be dead" Said Stagger Lee Billy dropped down and slobbered on his head And Stag filled him full of lead Oh yeah. And for a video of Nick Cave's rendering: Stagger Lee |
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24 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM (#2201367) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: topical tom Some might consider this a taboo subject:It's Saturday night and I'm alone, I've made no future plans, |
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24 Nov 07 - 12:44 PM (#2201368) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: topical tom Sorry. That blue clicky doesn't work. I'll try again. |
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24 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM (#2201374) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: topical tom Had trouble. Here's the song: I've made no future plans, So I sit me down and I pull out the little old Man, I ain't got a girlfriend and I don't have a date, But that's alright with me coz I love to masturbate Back in the old days I'd buy some magazines, a six pack of beer and a tub of Vaseline, Penthouse and Hustler were as good as it could get, But I hit the jackpot when I found the Internet. I'm beating my meat, pounding the pud, yeah I'm jacking off! I got a good grip on my joystick, and it ain't Microsoft, I'm flogging my dog, spanking the monkey, ain't computers great! Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate! They got naked men and women, and all kinds of sex galore, Blondes, brunettes and redheads and Philippine whores, No matter what you're into, you'll find your own dot COM, There's even one for old chicks where I think I saw my mum! Yeah choke the chicken, rub the duck, yeah I'm talking low, I got a good grip on my joystick and I can't let it go, Row that skin boat, stroke the log, ain't computers great! Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate! They say things like E commerce, with three "WWW"s and a dot, They say It's for information, but I'm here to say it's not, Now they're trading it on Wall Street, but they ain't fooling me, It's al just a cover for the porn industry! And I'm shagging my shaft, cleaning my gun, hammering the nail, I'm a cybersex site surfer, with my own email, I'm petting my snake, jacking off, thank you old Bill Gates, I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate! Yeah I'll never leave home coz I love to masturbate! |
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24 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM (#2201474) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Actually Joe_F At first they kept it simple: they tried it he's & she's, But when the ball was over, they were at it fives & threes. Tom came home at his journey's end To find his wife in bed with a friend. The night was cold, and the blankets thin: "I'll sleep in the middle," says Tom Bolynn. (Both, I regret to suspect, added by Oscar Brand.) |
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24 Nov 07 - 03:23 PM (#2201481) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Saro As we seem to have run out of sensible discussion, I'm off...thanks all for your interesting historical information. Saro |
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24 Nov 07 - 04:03 PM (#2201505) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Blandiver I wonder - has discussion (sensible or otherwise...) ever been a feature of Mudcat? As a relative newcomer here, I'm careful to read the initial post & follow the logic as it unfolds. However, a lot of the time I've noticed people lobbing in non-sequiturs responding to the thread subject alone, rather than following the logic of any discussion as such, thus effectively knocking the thread on the head, as is the case here. Topical Tom's contributions above are tidy examples of this - picking up on 'Taboo Subject' without bothering to find out what the thread is actually about - i.e homosexuality in traditional balladry. Please pay attention; follow the thread & contribute accordingly... |
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24 Nov 07 - 04:49 PM (#2201529) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Charley Noble At least make an effort to dig up some traditional songs close to the topic, maybe songs that are older than 1900. Really good candidates are probably pretty rare, given the tendency not to write such songs down. PILLS TO PURGE MELACHOLY is a rare anthology which does provide an example or two but mainly provides conventional bawdy songs collected in the 17th century. Charley Noble |
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24 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM (#2201595) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,beetle cat Has anyone mentioned Bessy Bell and Mary Gray (child#201)? It is an oddity among Child ballads, as Polly Stewart noted, in that in Child ballads, where there is a woman there is always a man. Well, these two women built a house together, and of course, died of the plague (how dirty). The obscurity of this song, its fragmented inclusion in the Child collection, and the lack of any others like it may simply indicate that homosexuality (or even lacking men in the lives of females) was too dirty a notion to even sing about. Heres to hegemony! Bloody murder, incest and even rape are fine though. Mary |
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24 Nov 07 - 10:09 PM (#2201641) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: M.Ted It should be pointed out that, what with it being a necessarily secret culture, the references to homosexuality in songs would be veiled and obscure to the degree that no one but homosexuals would realize that they were there. |
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25 Nov 07 - 01:20 AM (#2201678) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Big Al Whittle I suppose the porn industry is a factor in modern life. I'm for inclusivity Songs about past industries like coalmines and shipyards are in way about the dignity of the working man - and so they soothe our egos. The porn industry - no doubt one day will produce its own folk songs. I didn't like this song though. I'm not sure people embrace porn in quite the joyous way the song describes. Its more something to do with a lot of people not relating to anybody else much, and life running out of options. |
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25 Nov 07 - 01:51 AM (#2201683) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Slag As for cannibalism, I heard one about a fellow who passed his brother in the jungle... |
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25 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM (#2201719) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Rumncoke I think that some people do not realise just how taboo some subject were. People growing up here (in the UK) in the 1950s might have no idea about sex at all, girls were kept ignorant, or got no information from parents in the vague expectation of keeping them 'pure'. My father, who was ground crew in the RAF during WWll, once told me that a pilot who was considered to be improper - which could mean having an affair with a married woman, or appearing overly effeminate or being seen to be 'getting too close' with another man, would be placed in danger and that would normally mean that he died. It was easily done and easily explained. It wasn't homophobia in the modern sense, 'they' just didn't want that sort of person around and did something about it. 'They' wanted a better world after the war, and that meant getting rid of what 'they' knew was wrong. |
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25 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM (#2201736) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Jack Blandiver In what way does that differ from homophobia in the modern sense? |
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25 Nov 07 - 09:21 AM (#2201779) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Rumncoke Modern homophobia seems to run along the lines of punishing the offending individual's behaviour. The way the pilots behaved was more on the lines of eugenics - removing those deemed unsuitable. |
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26 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM (#2202482) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: M.Ted If someone was "unsuitable", they wouldn't have been a pilot, Rumncoke. Just cause your Dad said it don't make it true. |
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26 Nov 07 - 12:04 PM (#2202497) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: katlaughing M.Ted, rumncoke said "improper" which to me isn't quite as judgemental as "unsuitable." |
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26 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM (#2202503) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: PoppaGator I would imagine that if even one person of Rumncoke's Dad's acquaintenace were deliberately set up to be killed in combat, Dad might well never have been able to forget it. Of course, if it's true that such tactics were used against both heterosexual adulterers and suspiciously swishy individuals, there may have been more than one case. Maybe there was more talk than action about "taking care of" these purported undesirables. I don't see any difference between "modern" homophobia and anti-gay attitudes of any earlier age. I don't think that "punishment" (whether by death or any less drastic measure) is the key element; it's more a matter of hatred resulting from exaggerated fear, distaste and/or misunderstanding. Now, the Greek root of the suffix "phobia" means "fear" ~ not hate or punishment or prejudice or anything else. However, in common usage, the word "homophobia" has come to mean something closer to hatred and prejudice than fear. One is led to assume that all homophobic acts and attitudes, then, grow from the perpetrator's fear of homosexuality, and more specifically, fear that he himself might be gay. I'm not sure that this is always the case, but it's very likely quite often the case... |
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26 Nov 07 - 12:28 PM (#2202520) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: GUEST,Scoville at work Ma Rainey's "Tell it On Me Blues" is about lesbianism. It's not along the usual lines of a ballad, though. I hear there are other blues songs about homosexuality but that they don't get a lot of exposure latterly. |
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26 Nov 07 - 02:36 PM (#2202595) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Celtaddict Thanks, Charley. I do believe I have heard this, though I cannot think where; I never had the pleasure of hearing your esteemed uncle, or any other of your uncles as far as I know. Is there a tune somewhere? While I am with weelittledrummer in that the rough, crude, and violent for the sake of violence does not appeal to me, I would be very interested to hear of other old traditional ballads comparable to Child 201. (Many old ballads, of course, were violent, but it is a part of the story line and gives me less of a feeling that it is solely for the sake of violence.) |
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26 Nov 07 - 09:03 PM (#2202850) Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject? From: Rumncoke It is only called homophobia - I doubt that the perpetrators fear their victims - usually it is several against one - and they do regard it as punishment, or even protecting the kiddies from a pervert. From what I have heard gang rape of homosexuals is - or was - not uncommon, before beating them - they do not fear any act of male domination. During the war all sorts were called up, trained, and sent to do their bit. I can't see how being homosexual, or having an affair, would prevent anyone from being selected for pilot training and passing the course. It was, however, very difficult to keep secrets in the squadron enviroment. The clerks would read the return addresses printed on envelopes, as did those handing out the mail. When going on leave the address where you were to be staying was required, so you could be recalled - and Heaven help you if you gave a false address. Crowded together in Nissen huts with no privacy, tired and under stress, it must have been easy to let something slip, or be overheard talking in your sleep. People really did regard such things as wrong, immoral, unforgivable, against God and good order, and the sort of thing that ought to be erradicated for the good of society in general. |
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