How short can a note be?

28 Jan 08 - 07:58 AM (#2246874)
Subject: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler

I was wondering how long a musical note has to be for the human brain to decide what pitch it is.
I mean if is 100 cycles per second and we hear it for 1/50 of a second then can we identify it with from just two complete cycles, or does it have to be of longer duartion, or can we actually recognise a note from less than a single cycle?

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28 Jan 08 - 09:57 AM (#2246970)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Dave Hanson

You would hear it better on a tandem than a unicycle.

eric

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28 Jan 08 - 10:03 AM (#2246978)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Marje

Wouldn't a lot depend on the context? For instance, if the note was part of a sequence of notes in a tune, it might be more easily recognised than if it was just a random note.

And I can't help asking - why would you want to know this?

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28 Jan 08 - 10:09 AM (#2246984)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

"How short can a note be?"

Depends whether it's a thank you or condolence.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:10 AM (#2246986)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Rasener

I guess it just depends how fast it goes Note

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28 Jan 08 - 10:18 AM (#2246997)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

I think the brain will not even recognise that there is a sound, if it lasts less than about 1/16 or 1/32 of a second. As for recognising the pitch, the higher the frequency the easier it will be, as you get more cycles in the given time interval. You can test that principle by playing a low-freq sound for 1/8 or even 1/4 of a second; you'll find it very hard to recognise the pitch.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:21 AM (#2247002)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: mack/misophist

Seems to me it would depend on the brain in question and the ears attached to it. In theory, there's no reason you couldn't designate a note shorter than the smallest possible unit of time (chronon).

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28 Jan 08 - 10:23 AM (#2247004)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Kidding aside, that would be a good question for an audiologist. I was checking Mr Google but not finding anything that helps. I'll dig around later.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:35 AM (#2247012)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

Well, I believe it is accepted that our hearing is in a worse state than our sight (compared to other critters). We know the human eye can be fooled by anything lasting 1/25 of a second or less, so the assumption of an equivalent audio limit around 1/16 feels realistic, as long as both brain and ears are human.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:37 AM (#2247016)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Sounds reasonable. But what about music written in 64ths?

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28 Jan 08 - 10:40 AM (#2247019)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Amos

See the Wikipedia Article on Psychacoustics for general background on the thresholds of aural perception.

Pictonn and van Roon offetr this gnarly paragraph: "The amplitude-intensity functions for the 1 and 2 kHz responses both demonstrated a plateau at higher intensities in the multiple-stimulus conditions but not in the single-stimulus condition. The slope of the amplitude-intensity functions varied significantly with the carrier frequency of the stimulus: 1.30 at 500 Hz, 0.87 at 1000 Hz, 0.75 at 2000 Hz, and 1.40 at 4000 Hz. The slope of the phase-intensity function averaged 1.16 degrees per dB and did not vary with carrier frequency. Estimates of latency, however, indicated that latency increased with decreasing carrier frequency and with decreasing intensity. The performance of the threshold estimating algorithms differed between normal hearing and simulated hearing loss, since the amplitude- and phase-intensity functions in the latter condition were not linear. Physiological-behavioral threshold differences were generally greater for normal hearing than for simulated hearing loss. Linear regression provided the least physiological-behavioral difference but was quite variable during simulated hearing loss. Simply defining threshold as the lowest intensity above which all responses were significantly different from residual EEG noise was the most accurate method in terms of yielding the least standard deviation of the physiological-behavioral difference with an average standard deviation of 10 dB, provided EEG noise levels were low enough in the normal hearing condition.

Conclusions: Thresholds can be estimated using intensity sweeps with about the same accuracy as recording separate responses to discrete intensities. Sweep recordings provide additional information about the responses at suprathreshold intensities by clearly determining amplitude- and phase- intensity functions at these intensities.".

Not a lot of help for the direct quiestion, so far...


A

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28 Jan 08 - 10:41 AM (#2247020)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Just a question. I did a sliding note from C to F with my voice. In theory, I am hearing the whole slide and it contains an infinity of notes between C and F. I heard the whole slide, so did I also hear an infinity of notes in that second?

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28 Jan 08 - 10:43 AM (#2247024)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

Peace, that would be 64ths of a note, not necessarily of a second. It depends on the time designation for the beat in that particular tune.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:44 AM (#2247026)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Good point, George.

Amos, what does that say in English?

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28 Jan 08 - 10:45 AM (#2247028)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

My guess is you heard discrete notes, and your brain filled in the gaps, just as happens when we see an incomplete circle briefly.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:46 AM (#2247030)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

OK. I'm gonna learn something from this thread. I just hope I can understand it.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:49 AM (#2247032)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: JohnInKansas

Some ancient texts I ran into once long ago asserted that a minimum of about 8 cycles was necessary, with pure tones electrically produced, for most people to discern a pitch for a sound. Embedded in a melody, or as part of a chord, a shorter sound may be detected as "present" and the expected pitch will be supplied by the standard "awesome brainpower" of the average listener.

For musical instruments, it's incredibly difficult to produce a short sound that starts - continues - and ends at a single pitch. The usual presence of many harmonic overtones also confuddles the issue. The human listener, being not constrained to judge what actually is present may hear what is not (that awesome brain power again).

An "exact" answer would be extremely difficult to produce without rigorous specification of the instrument(s), weather, terrain, enemy forces and their disposition, troops at hand, reserves available, ammunition load, reliablilty of resupply channels, and whether you feel lucky. Then the answer would only be good for the few microseconds until the situation changes, and somebody would still argue with you.

John

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28 Jan 08 - 10:54 AM (#2247036)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

That would explain why I hear an ascending aftertone when I strum certain chords and let the 'ring' until they disappear. Thank you, JiC.

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28 Jan 08 - 10:56 AM (#2247037)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

It's a bit like 'How long is a piece of string'?

I forget who it was, possibly Hagel, who argued that an arrow being fired from a bow should never reach its target, because at any one moment during the flight, the arrow is stationary.

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 11:00 AM (#2247041)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Also the argument that it will have to fly halfway to the target. Then halfway again, Ad infinitum (sp?). So, it never gets to the target.

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28 Jan 08 - 11:06 AM (#2247048)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

The brain plays such tricks, a note does not even have to be played, to be heard. The context leads the brain to expect it, and when it does not materialise, the brain simply fills it in. I have real examples of this on record, certain songs by Angelo Branduardi, my "tunes hero", where the oboe or basoon accompaniment actually purposely skips notes from an expected sequence, but as you listen to the song you 'd swear you heard the missing notes.

And the weird thing is, when the brain actually has to work to produce these audio-mirages, one somehow enjoys the music more. I certainly do. It is as if the brain enjoys "being involved" more than just passively. I don't know what this trick is called, or even if it has a name, but I call it "minimalist accompaniment", probably erroneously.

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28 Jan 08 - 11:11 AM (#2247053)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Wolfgang

Recognizing pitch requires a tone of minimal duration. Regardless of frequency, durations of only a few milliseconds are heard as clicks. As the duration is lengthened the click develops a tonal quality that allows some listeners to discriminate among clicks on the basis of click pitch. The minimum period of time for a frequency to be perceived as pitch varies with frequency below 1000 Hz when two to three cycles are needed. Above 1000 Hz a minimum duration of 10 ms is required.

copied from a textbook

To really understand why extremely short notes are perceived as containing all frequencies and are therefore perceived as clicks would require using Fourier analysis.

Wolfgang

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28 Jan 08 - 11:23 AM (#2247063)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Joe Offer

The shorter the note, the longer the name. What's the shortest note? - a Semidemihemiquaver? a Hemisemidemiquaver? a quasihemidemisemiquaver
-Joe-

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28 Jan 08 - 11:27 AM (#2247067)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

I see "acoustic stimulation" as the book title, or is it the chapter/section? In my days, "acoustic stimulation" was provided by listening to Jane Birkin sing "je t'aime - moi non plus"...

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28 Jan 08 - 11:29 AM (#2247068)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

The discussion level was getting too high, almost academic. I HAD to do something...

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28 Jan 08 - 11:46 AM (#2247083)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

... and once we find how short a note can be, we can start looking at half-notes... ;-)

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 11:54 AM (#2247091)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: JohnInKansas

That would explain why I hear an ascending aftertone when I strum certain chords and let the 'ring' until they disappear. Thank you, JiC.

Superficial comment:

The usual situation is that when a string is pulled away from it's rest position it is stretched slightly, and thus the initial frequency is higher for large amplitude string motions than for the lower amplitudes as the motion decays. The base frequency normally decreases, and pitch goes down as the note dies.

In a chord, the "beats" between strings can be quite complex, and it's possible for a harmonic from one string to feed another string to produce a sense of "rising pitch" during the decay.

If the bridge on a plucked instrument is "normally non-linear" it's also possible for some of the lateral vibration of the string to excite the longitudinal vibration mode of the string. Since for most string materials the "wave velocity" for the longitudinal mode is 4 to 6 times that of the lateral mode, a "ringing upward" sound can result.

(Several other possibilities ignored in the interest of simplicity.)

The bottom line is "don't suggest a simple question if you want a simple answer." The simple ones are usually the toughest to get right.

John

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28 Jan 08 - 12:16 PM (#2247103)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

Thank you, John.

I think you answered that for me many moons back and it makes sense to me. I have always considered you to be a genius (as in real genius--correct mistakes in Mensa exams, etc), and the reason I think you are is that you can take very complicated things and make them simple enough for this ol' boy to comprehend. Just proves it once more.

Sorry, don't mean to make you blush.

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28 Jan 08 - 12:37 PM (#2247117)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: JohnInKansas

Who me? BLUSH?

Well Peace, I did try to report an error in one of the questions on my pSAT exam; but they never answered my letter. (They were wrong. Multiple choice and NO CORRECT ANSWER to choose.)

(That was before mothers hired lawyers to sue when their kids turned up less than perfect.)

That was probably just a precocious knack though, that's long since faded.

"Writing things simple" is something I had to work on for many years, trying to help suppliers build the parts needed instead of just shipping what they had. But it takes a big contract to be able to lead them along "with authority." I don't have nearly as much success with the corner market.

John

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28 Jan 08 - 01:56 PM (#2247183)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Amos

I concur with Peace's assessment. My hastily grabbed science blabber just clouded the issue while his clarified it, as did Wolfgang's, tot he point it was well-answered.


A

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28 Jan 08 - 01:59 PM (#2247186)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

I disagree. Your answer was excellent. But I lack the ability to 'translate' what was posted. Hell, Amos, I thought Hz was a new abbreviation for the car rental company.

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28 Jan 08 - 02:00 PM (#2247189)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Grab

Brendy, that was (almost) one of Xeno's paradoxes. Actually, the paradox is that to get from A to B, the arrow first has to travel half of the distance; and to travel half the distance it first has to travel a quarter of the distance; and so on. Xeno's point was that if there is a minimum "quantum" of time in which something can happen, then the arrow can never reach its target because there is an infinity of steps.

A good testbed for this is the electric guitar. Guitars are fretted so you're (mostly) guaranteed an accurate note, and alternate-picking gives you discrete notes. And by a happy coincidence there are people who've dedicated their lives to learning how to alternate-pick at truly ridiculous speeds. If you hit Youtube and search for guitar lessons, you should find some guy with a series of short tutorials playing scales at a speed where the notes *do* start to sound like a continuous slide, at least to my ears.

Graham.

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28 Jan 08 - 02:05 PM (#2247196)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Amos

By the way, the arrow-in-flight problem, known as Xeno's paradox, antedates the existence of Germany, let alone the birth of Hegel.

It illustrates the fundamental flaw in our common manner of perceiving time. There is no moment in which the arrow is motionless relative to the outside frame of reference, and no moment in which it is moving relative to the arrow as its own frame of reference.

The boundary layer in which the lead atoms of the arrow's tip move through space and air one atom's diameter at a time is probably a really interesting study... But nonetheless, it moves.


A


A

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28 Jan 08 - 02:23 PM (#2247222)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

It's been a long time lads, since the old Dialectic days.

Here's what I came up with: HEGEL'S DIALECTIC

"Zeno's aporia concerning the arrow in flight is a brilliant expression of this inability. Let us consider the arrow in flight. Take a certain moment in time. At this moment the arrow occupies a definite position in space. Take another moment. The arrow again occupies a completely determinate position in space. The same thing is true for any other moment. This means that the arrow always occupies a definite position in space. This means that it is standing in place"

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 02:40 PM (#2247237)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

The Arrow.

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28 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM (#2247241)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

One that definitely moves, Peace... ;-)

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 02:47 PM (#2247246)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

This is the one Hegel meant, I think . . . .

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28 Jan 08 - 02:56 PM (#2247258)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

Oh look, it's stationary....! ;-)

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 04:07 PM (#2247317)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Peace

You bet. So's this . . . .

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28 Jan 08 - 04:11 PM (#2247320)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Amos

It's an optical illusions, making time discreet when it is actually infinitely subdivisible, just as space is. You can think of taking a moment-in-time measurement and ddo thought experiments, but you'll never get a 100% natural and true measurement of same -- you always have to lop off the last few decimal places to get relative stasis.



A

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28 Jan 08 - 04:34 PM (#2247336)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

Interesting concepts though, Amos.

B.

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28 Jan 08 - 05:08 PM (#2247350)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: The Vulgar Boatman

Strewth! Does philosophy count as thread drift?

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28 Jan 08 - 05:21 PM (#2247360)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,leeneia

Thank you, Wolfgang, for an intelligent and authoritative answer. It is interesting to know.

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28 Jan 08 - 05:21 PM (#2247361)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: JohnInKansas

I'd say it was pretty much a philosophical¹² question to begin one.

¹ i.e. with little real meaning or significance but presenting an opportunity for endless (and mostly fruitless) "argument."

² Purely a dedicated "realist's" view.

John

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28 Jan 08 - 05:46 PM (#2247387)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: The Vulgar Boatman

Quite so, John. Now, how many angels can we get on the point of a needle?
KYBTTS

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28 Jan 08 - 06:07 PM (#2247407)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: JohnInKansas

I heard it was originally "how many anglos can we needle before they get the point."

(?)

John

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28 Jan 08 - 07:00 PM (#2247451)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Amos

Why would you want to needle an anglo? Much more fun to rile some hot-blooded Mediterranean type.


A

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28 Jan 08 - 10:48 PM (#2247587)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Brendy

It's what one would do I expect, when one has far too much idle time on one's hands.

B.

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29 Jan 08 - 12:22 AM (#2247607)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,DrWord

we're not forgetting stationAry|stationEry distinctions, Peace?

oh, I guess the five_reams of stationery were just sitting there :(

Dennis

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29 Jan 08 - 02:39 AM (#2247621)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Big Al Whittle

lets face it, it can be almost nowt.......

(Lancashire pronunciation)

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29 Jan 08 - 03:50 AM (#2247637)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Mr Red

I have heard the effects of missing syllables in speach and a lot depends on context because something that is missing in a familiar passage (say speach) might not be where the stress of recognition lies, or it might sound like a glottal stop and stand-out. In terms of music - with a familiar genre &/or a tune it will be more obvious but if it was Karl-Heinz Stockhousen (in a John Cage) how would you know? And that is before we consider the listener, as has been mooted.

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29 Jan 08 - 04:03 AM (#2247643)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: George Papavgeris

I resemble that remark, Amos!

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29 Jan 08 - 05:16 AM (#2247664)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Mo the caller

We once had stereo radio in our kichen with only one speaker.

It happened when we moved the speaker from one corner to another and the brain kept hearing it from where it had been as well as where it actually was.

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29 Jan 08 - 07:21 AM (#2247706)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler

Well there seem to be some fairly well defined limits in amongst the replies so thank you.

The more I think about it the moreI realise that there are huge problems in setting up an experiment to produce a sound that actaully is the length that you want and avoiding complications of prolonging the sound with echoes. You would have to use a high quality in ear earphone I presume and even then you would have to check that it didn't have a decay vibration after the note stopped.

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30 Jan 08 - 07:36 AM (#2248515)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: GUEST,Darowyn

You would have to do the experiment in an anechoic chamber.
I suspect that the time threshold- the shortest note of which the pitch was detectable, would relate to the frequency of the note, but also to the quality of the mental processing of the listener. I know sound engineers who can detect a "flam" the difference in timing between two supposedly simultaneous sounds as little as 2 milliseconds. From experience, I believe that this is a learnt skill not an inborn talent.
The brain is known to be capable of massive interpolation in the process of making sense out of deficient data. The Law of the missing fundamental illustrates this. One can determine the pitch of a note from hearing the harmonics that one would expect to hear accompanying a note note, even when the fundamental frequency is missing or filtered out, and only the harmonics are played.

Below the time threshold, like Wolfgang's textbook says, any sound is perceived as a click.
And Joe, in America, in Jazz and Rock music, musos tend to use the numerical values of notes Quarter, Eighth, Thirtysecond etc.
Can't be doing with strings of synonyms for half.
Cheers
Dave

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30 Jan 08 - 09:22 AM (#2248585)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: redsnapper

It is certainly possible to perceive a sound with a duration of 10ms (1/100 s) but characteristics such as pitch or timbre will only be resolved by most subjects when the pulse width is within the optimal range (say above 25ms or 1/40 s) and more so when the sound is repeated. Frequency is also a factor as mentioned by Wolfgang above.

RS

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30 Jan 08 - 08:16 PM (#2249153)
Subject: RE: How short can a note be?
From: Rowan

And, on top of the excellent info above, is the trick used by most digitally-reproduced music, whereby only some frequencies (out of the collection that would be recorded and discernable in an analogue recording) are recorded. The ear (brain, actually) "reinstates" much of what is "missed".

I suspect a similar "ability" is at play in other circumstances, such as where relatively elderly musicians can perceive frequencies even though age has removed those elements in the cochlear that are required to detect such frequencies. The ear's/brain's ability to detect harmonics plays some part in this but the effect persists for pure tones for some musicians.

But I'm not sure whether minimal "duration" affects this.

And, for frequencies below 26Hz, the human ear is known to be able to detect the sound but not discriminate between pitches; I have no information about minimal durations here, either.

Cheers, Rowan

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