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06 Feb 08 - 02:38 PM (#2255190) Subject: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Jim Carroll From one of Ireland's leading journalists, Fintan O'Toole, in The Irish Times yesterday: In a move that makes Mills & Boon look believable, Brian Lenihan last week published legislation that will give him the right to decide whether some couples will be allowed to marry. You couldn't make it up but you don't have to. There, in black print on white paper, is one of the most extraordinary provisions ever included in Irish legislation. The Immigration Bill will, if passed, lay down that "A marriage purportedly contracted in the State between two persons one or each of whom is a foreign national is invalid in law" unless the Minister for Justice is notified three months in advance. The Minister can refuse permission outright on a number of grounds, including the vague catch-all that the marriage "would not be in the interests of public security, public policy or public order". Essentially, a politician will have the personal power to decide whether an Irish citizen can marry a foreigner, or whether two foreigners can marry each other. "Public policy" may decree that Katie and Sean aren't the right sort to marry each other. Not only that, but the Bill will criminalise any priest or registrar who performs a wedding ceremony for two people who do not have the Minister's permission to marry. The wording would seem, in fact, to criminalise anyone who is a witness at such a ceremony, or even someone who drives the happy couple to the altar: "A person who knowingly a) solemnises or permits the solemnisation of a form of marriage which is, under this section, not a valid marriage, b) is a party to such a form of marriage, or c) facilitates such a form of marriage, shall be guilty of an offence." Readers may imagine that these extraordinary provisions are being put forward as a way to stop foreign people contracting marriages with Irish citizens for no other reason than to acquire residency rights. But this is not so - Irish law does not at the moment confer any such rights by reason of marriage alone and the Bill elsewhere re-enforces this state of affairs. So the Bill's bizarre powers are simply an exercise in absurdly overbearing control-freakery. As the man said, you couldn't make it up. Jim Carroll |
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06 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM (#2255215) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: McGrath of Harlow Even if the Bill survives and gets passed, I can't see that one being able to get by as compatible with the Constitution when it comes to the courts. |
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06 Feb 08 - 02:57 PM (#2255216) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Big Mick Hey Jim, remember when folks were trying to leave the place? Incredible turn of events. This guy needs to be turned out straightaway. Don't send him over here, though. We already have a load of these nuts trying to look out for our best interests by taking away our civil liberties. All the best, Mick |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:12 PM (#2255238) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Big Al Whittle how would they stand on gay marriages? |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM (#2255253) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Rapparee And how would the EU stand on this? If an Irishwoman holidaying in Italy met a nice Italian boy and married him in Italy would the marriage be recognized in Ireland? |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:36 PM (#2255269) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Brendy Similar laws in Denmark...., and for some time now, too. A lot of Danish people have had to move to Malmö, Sweden with their spouses, because of it, and commute to København every day to work. The thinking behind it, amongst other considerations is to reduce the 'marriages of convenience' that allegedly take place in the EU. It will go EU-wide eventually, I've heard. B. |
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06 Feb 08 - 03:42 PM (#2255276) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Brendy 'EU Nationals', although not excluded from this legislation should not have much trouble, Rapaire, from it. It has VISA/Work Permit legislation attached to it also. Eastern European, African, and Middle Easterners who marry Danish people, are the ones we hear more about over here. B. |
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07 Feb 08 - 02:55 AM (#2255685) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Jim Carroll Coming at a time when the Irish Government is pleading 'special case' for Irish illegals in the U.S. this makes this country look somewhat hypocritical - to say the least. My family first left Ireland in the mid-nineteenth century and has been making the journey back and forth ever since. In spite of the bigotry, they never met anything like this. Brendy; I agree with you; largely racist legislation based on skin colour. Jim Carroll |
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07 Feb 08 - 03:13 AM (#2255688) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: GUEST,PMB So the Irish will be coming to England for their weddings, as well as their abortions and divorces? They'll be coming here to be buried next (thinks, do they have cremations in Ireland?)! Silly legislation, and poitless unless Ireland ceases to recognise marriages conducted in other EC countries. |
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07 Feb 08 - 03:38 AM (#2255694) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Richard Bridge Surely the Irish courts are like the English, with no power in general to declare Parliamentary enactments "unconstitutional". This is about thing called "The enrolled bill" (or "enrolled act") rule. |
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07 Feb 08 - 04:04 AM (#2255706) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Folkiedave I have a friend who married an American lady - he had dozens of similar hooops to jump through. Disgracefully - it seems to be quite widespread. Mind you in different times the names Peggy Seeger and Alex Campbell come to mind (!!) |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:32 AM (#2255747) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: McGrath of Harlow There is a written constitution in Ireland, which makes a difference. |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:46 AM (#2255754) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Bryn Pugh Does not the European Convention on Human Rights apply in Irish domestic Law ? Article 12 - right to marry Article 8 - respect for private life and family ? |
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07 Feb 08 - 06:57 AM (#2255787) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: GUEST,Saltz The cathoilc church ran Ireland for centuries. This is the 21st century and kids today aren´t going to be told what to do by old guys protecting "kiddy fiddlers". European laws must apply here. |
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07 Feb 08 - 09:13 AM (#2255867) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Bonnie Shaljean I understand from a native-born Irish friend who is getting married that she had to file notice 3 months in advance with the Registrar of Births Marriages & Deaths (wonder if unborn babies and old folks have to register their births/deaths 3 months in... no, don't go there) though I don't have firsthand knowledge about this. But as far as I know that's just the usual bureaucratic sludge. Don't like the smell of that "not-in-the-interests-of" clause, though; nor the arbitrary power of decision - which also leaves the door to extortion/bribery wide open. >"Public policy" may decree that Katie and Sean aren't the right sort to marry each other. Don't thinks it's the Katies and Seans they're worried about. Or the Bridgets or Marys or Padraigs. It's those OTHER sorts of names ... A friend of mine sings a great satire on Lenihan based on the old 50s song "He'll Have To Go" which I wish I had the words of - the only bit I can remember is the end of the verse: Excuse me, Brian But you've been lyin' You'll have to go Anybody know the rest? |
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07 Feb 08 - 09:18 AM (#2255870) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Richard Bridge You are right Magrath, Article 26. |
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07 Feb 08 - 09:24 AM (#2255879) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Bonnie Shaljean "...other than a Money Bill..." ???? Does that mean those are exempt from the provisions in this article, or has the legalese totally obscured the text's meaning to ordinary folk like me? |
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07 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM (#2255884) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: GUEST,PMB Extortion and bribery in Ireland? It's just not Dunne. |
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07 Feb 08 - 09:44 AM (#2255890) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Bonnie Shaljean But they'll get AHERNia trying - |
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07 Feb 08 - 12:07 PM (#2256030) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Richard Bridge A "Money Bill" has a technical meaning. The reason such a bill might be exempt from challenge would be to prevent the courts derailing a budget. |
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07 Feb 08 - 05:18 PM (#2256322) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Brendy It'll all be OK, though, when we get Sharia Law. B. |
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07 Feb 08 - 08:14 PM (#2256447) Subject: RE: BS: Irish Big Brother Strikes From: Fergie Our PM Bertie Ahern TD (TD is our equivalent to Britain's MP) is in hot water due to a Tribunal inquiring into his financial affairs. I have extracted a few anagrams from his name. The two I like best are ERIN HAD BETTER and A BENT DITHERER. Fergus |