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10 Feb 08 - 01:41 PM (#2258589) Subject: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge Now don't get me wrong. I'm not a "new man", I'm not "in touch with my feminine side" and I don't like cooking or cleaning. But it's coming up to 5 year ssince Jacqui died, and now my mother has just died and I have all her old saucepans. Long pre-dating non-stick (she was born in 1911). Mostly they are grey metal. The weight would say "iron" to me, but the absence of actual corrosion says not. They are not I think light enough to be aluminium. THey have good heavy bases to spread the heat (most of them) and I'd like to clean them up and use them. But the insides of teh bottoms are pretty much blackened. It looks more like a stain than a deposit. So far Fairy Power Spray, Cillit Bang, and teh dishwasher hvae had little effect. I don't want to use a true scouring powder as it leaves a roughness which will make keeping them clean a lot harder. Suggestions (preferably ones taht do not involve physical effort)? |
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10 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM (#2258598) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: John MacKenzie "Sprinkle some baking soda on the burned spots and let sit a couple of minutes. Pour vinegar on top and watch the magic happen. Those bubble will start lifting off the gunk. You may still need to use a little elbow grease, but not much and it's fun to watch!" Can't vouch for the efficacy, I nicked it from elsewhere, but the chemistry sounds right. G |
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10 Feb 08 - 01:50 PM (#2258599) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bert Hmmm, grey metal would suggest an aluminum alloy. Lot's of older ones were very thick. So don't use oven cleaner just in case. Try a magnet test to see if they are iron. But an old iron pot is usually black. Try boiling some vinegar in them, or cooking an acid fruit such as rhubarb. Also you can clean them with wet or dry rubbing down paper from an auto parts store. Try 400 grade first and use it wet with detergent. Then, when you have got them clean, you can shine them up with 600 grade or finer. I have to do this regularly at home with both stainless steel and aluminum pots, 'cos some lazy bugger (often me) lets them burn. |
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10 Feb 08 - 01:56 PM (#2258604) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Ebbie I don't know if it works with all materials but in recent years I've come across a trick that "works a treat" (Without the Mudcat that is not a phrase I would ever have used. *g*). I dump some dishwashing liquid in the bottom and fill it with water (I've used both hot and cold water with equal efficacy) to the brim of the traumatized stuff and set it back out of the way. A day or so later I dump it out and lo! |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:12 PM (#2258616) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: gnomad How about a quick dab with a magnet to give a clue as to composition? If you have got cast iron but the bottoms are blackened with lighter shades up the inside of the pans there is a fair chance they are stove enameled. Staining of this kind is pretty much impossible to remove, and most chemical methods will take the gloss off the enamel, making sticking/burning more likely in future use. The good news is that such a stain, though unattractive, has no significant effect on the performance of the pans, and won't taint your food. Le Creuset advise use a low heat, and never to dump the hot pan into cold water. They also offer a stain remover, I have not tried it, but have heard only lukewarm reports of its performance. Under no circumstances take metal utensils or scourers to an enameled pan, and scouring powder it also a no-no. Some cast aluminium pans are pretty hefty, you might try taking steel wool to the underside, if it comes up shiny under the burning this might be what you have, and you could proceed to the insides in relative confidence. |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:24 PM (#2258627) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: wysiwyg Yes, sounds like old heavy, cast aluminum. Use a grinder and re-season as for cast iron. ~S~ |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:25 PM (#2258630) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge They are definitely not stove enamelled: another set of treasures from her kitchen was a lot of white enamelled things (best a breadbin) with blue rims, but alas teh 5 gallon flour bin was found in the garage after use for storing garden chemicals and corroded ebyond recapture. Now where did I put that magnet? |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:28 PM (#2258635) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge Aluminium - or at least totally non-magnetic. I seem to have lots of vinegar, so once I have finished my dinner I'll boil some and see what happens. |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:33 PM (#2258641) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: wysiwyg Salt is a good scrubbing/grinding abrasive as well. Grind off the blackened bits, save some time, make 'em shine. ~S~ |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:39 PM (#2258648) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Q (Frank Staplin) I still have some of those very heavy cast aluminum sauce pans, but I use them in the greenhouse, or cleaning in the garage, etc. Some years ago, there were stories about aluminum cookware and Alzheimer's (false? don't remember), and, perhaps the determiner, my wife wanted new stuff in the kitchen. A couple of Le Creusets retained, but "grey metal" doesn't hold for them. Any identifiers on the bottom? Cast iron is heavier still, and mostly is used in frypans (kept seasoned), Dutch ovens, corn bread pans and the like. I have a couple of cast iron kettles and a sauce pan, etc., but they are over 150 years old and collect dust on shelves. Of course a magnet works to identify iron, copper, etc. |
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10 Feb 08 - 02:41 PM (#2258650) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage My mother used to put water to boil in the burned pan that needed cleaning and add at least a couple of tablespoons of baking soda, maybe more. Put in enough water so the pan can simmer or lightly boil for 20-30 minutes. You'll see a lot of the black floating off. Elbow grease is also a useful compound. SRS |
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10 Feb 08 - 03:20 PM (#2258686) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bee Cook a batch of rhubarb in it. Will be sparkling when done. |
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10 Feb 08 - 03:37 PM (#2258706) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: gnu Excellent and efficient solution (pun definitely intended) Bee! Tasty, too! Giok... yeah, right.. you nicked it. You closet kitchen bitch, you. Oh, BTW... before I get nicked for the PI "kitchen bitch" thing. I don't care so sod off. |
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10 Feb 08 - 03:40 PM (#2258711) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Alice Hydrogen peroxide together with Cream of Tartar (it is a white powder bought in the cooking section). That works much better than vinegar or baking soda. Alice |
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10 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM (#2258739) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Alice Unless the pots are cast iron, it may be best to not use them any more for cooking. See leaching of metal from cooking pots: http://www.life.ca/nl/81/pots.html |
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10 Feb 08 - 04:34 PM (#2258804) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge I don't think leaching the aluminium did my mother much harm - died at nearly 97 and doing her own tax returns until she was 95! So far boiling vinegar has got me nowhere except smelly. Rhubarb it'll have to be! |
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10 Feb 08 - 04:39 PM (#2258811) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage For a burnt pan you should be boiling baking soda, not boiling vinegar. Boiling vinegar works for tea kettles to take out the limestone buildup. I do it every couple of months in my electric kettle. Looks as clean as new each time. SRS |
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10 Feb 08 - 05:13 PM (#2258854) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,JTT My mother's old trick: to clean both silver and aluminium, put *washing* soda in warm water, add the aluminium and the silver and leave overnight; leave the windows of the room open and the doors closed, as there may be fumes. In the morning, rush in and open the back door, and dump out the water and rinse off the pots and silver - you should have sparkling silver and sparkling pots. |
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10 Feb 08 - 05:14 PM (#2258855) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Liz the Squeak Great Stilly - if you like the taste of boiled vinegar for the next 5 cups of tea.... lemon juice is much tastier. LTS |
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10 Feb 08 - 11:22 PM (#2259113) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage I use pickling vinegar, 10%, about 1 cup and a cup of water. I boil it a couple of times then I pour it out and rinse the pot thoroughly. I boil a little plain water and toss it also. This stainless steel kettle is wonderful. SRS |
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10 Feb 08 - 11:23 PM (#2259114) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: The Fooles Troupe Actually, one should try not to remove any blacklening on the outside of the base of the pots, it allegedly helps heat transfer into the pot. |
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10 Feb 08 - 11:37 PM (#2259121) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rapparee The thing about Alzheimer's being caused by aluminum was exploded long ago. From "Scientific American" via Snopes: Two more researchers have responded to this question. Leonard Berg is a professor of neurology at the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis; until recently, he directed the Alzheimer's Disease Research Center there. He replies: "There is no proof, and the current consensus is that aluminum does not play a major role in the development of Alzheimer's disease. But because the causes of the disorder are not understood at this time, one cannot rule out the possibility that aluminum could play a minor role. In our Center, we do not recommend that people avoid aluminum cooking pans or aluminum-containing antiperspirants or antacids because there is little evidence that such lifestyle changes are helpful. Moreover, it is impossible to avoid ingesting a certain amount of aluminum, which is found naturally in food and water." Zaven S. Khachaturian is the director of the Ronald and Nancy Reagan Research Institute. He has written a review article on the disease in July/August issue of The Sciences. He adds: "This issue has been the subject of many studies, workshops and reports since the early 1970s. Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut answer either to implicate or to absolve the role of aluminum in causing Alzheimer's disease. At present it is not clear whether the aluminum found in the brain of an Alzheimer's victim got there because there is disease already in progress or if the aluminum starts the process. "In the mind of many scientists, if aluminum plays a role it is most probably a secondary one. The reasoning for this position is based on the fact that aluminum is one of the most abundant and pervasive elements. It is found everywhere--it is in the water we drink, it is in the dust we breathe, it is in many of he substances we use every day such as coke in glass bottles, food preservatives, many cosmetics and food dyes. Even if we stop using pots and pans or underarm deodorants, it will be virtually impossible to avoid aluminum. Given this type of exposure of the general population, if aluminum is playing a major role then one would expect the numbers of people affected by Alzheimer's to be much higher than they are found in epidemiological studies." |
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11 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM (#2259273) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,Dani Okey fine, but I'm STILL not going to apply it directly to my freshly-shaven armpit, thank you very much. You said it's not baked-on gunk, but I do second the tartar recommendation. That's the best way I know of to clean pots and pans that were thought lost causes. I put a thick layer on, add a half inch or so of water, simmer 'til the water starts to go away, leave it to cool, and it'll come beautifully clean. Dani (a chef who has seen MANY burnt pots, and burned a few herself) |
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11 Feb 08 - 09:24 AM (#2259373) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Donuel Alice is right Hydrogen peroxide together with Cream of Tartar (it is a white powder bought in the cooking section). That works much better than vinegar or baking soda its amazing. |
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11 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM (#2259447) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bill D Since you are in the UK, I'm not sure if this is marketed there under the same name, but for general cleaning of pots Bon Ami is hard to beat. Surely there is an equivilent. If the discoloration is deep into the metal, that's a different story. |
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11 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM (#2259558) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas It the metal is grey and the pots are fairly heavy, they almost certainly are what was called "aluminum" in the US from about the mid 1930s and on. Older than ca. 1945 there is the possibility that they could be any of a variety of loosely defined "pot metal" materials, and there is no specific "list of ingredients" for those. By the time of the mid 1940s, aluminum/aluminium was a major component in much cookware that would meet the description given, with earlier materials often containing a fairly high percentage of zinc. Very old cookware of this kind sometimes contained a fair amount of lead, but it's unlikely that any this old would still have survived in useable condition. Note that nearly all similar metals that have been used will melt at about 460F (238C) so don't try to use them in a "Pizza oven." As to the weight being "like cast iron" I once paid $0.10 at a yard sale for what I thought was a cast iron lid that might fit my skillet - and the bottom, minus a handle, came with it. When I wire-brushed enough of the black off to identify what I had it turned out to be a Wagner Drip-top chicken fryer, solid cast aluminum. An aunt bought one ca. 1946, and my mother had always wanted one; but refused to consider paying the $48 (US - 1946) price then demanded. They're still about the same price, but it's not a week's wage now for most. The "black" in the stains is carbon, and almost nothing you can use will touch it. If the stain still contains sufficient "grease," chemical cleaners can break up the grease to allow the carbon to be released from the surface. If the stains/deposits have been there for a very long time, about the only practical way to remove them is with an abrasive attack, and a small wire brush in your Dremel or drill motor would be indicated. Roughness resulting from abrasive removal, if that's needed, can be quickly smoothed/polished with a "rag" polishing wheel mounted on an arbor in your drill motor, using the appropriate abrasive stick for Al. Polishing wheels and abrasives should be easily found at the nearest hardware shop. Normal "scouring powders" should not scratch the finish any more than what likely already exists for the "bare metal," should you be successful in actually cleaning down to what's there. "Clean" alumin(i)um has good heat transfer, but is not a particularly good cooking surface. The residual grease left from using and normal washing will "cure" the surface fairly quickly in most cases, should you be forced to clean down to the metal; but keeping the pots "metal shiny" is not a good goal. If the stains aren't bad enough to reflect unfavorably on your mother's dishwashing practices, my suggestion would be that you give the pots a good sudsy wash, forget about the stains, and tell your friends "that's how my mom had them cured, and that's how I'm gonna use 'em." Work up a song-and-dance routine about the "charm of OLD" and praise the beauty of them. John |
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11 Feb 08 - 01:49 PM (#2259607) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: McGrath of Harlow Very heavy, non-magnetic and grey... You quite sure you haven't got depleted uranium there Richard? |
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11 Feb 08 - 05:03 PM (#2259802) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,pattyClink Katchup. |
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11 Feb 08 - 05:15 PM (#2259816) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge I hope not Magrath, as I am stacking them one inside the other. |
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11 Feb 08 - 05:23 PM (#2259833) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rowan If the metal really is aluminium then the only way to clean back to a smooth finish is as John indicates. Soaking and/or boiling in various chemicals will result in a certain amount of pitting where the weak spots in the layer of gunge are penetrated first. If that's the way you want to go, try cooking up some batches of real tomato sauce; the recipes are fairly acidic and the results taste great whatever the residual flavours were in the gunge you're trying to remove. Polished aluminium surfaces don't stay bare for more than hour or so; the aluminium surface quickly oxidises (it still "looks" polished) and the oxide protects the metal underneath from further chemical action unless you get stuck into it with really alkaline or acidic chemicals, foodstuffs included. Tests we did many years ago on aluminium billies seemed to support the notion that a polished outside surface gave the best heat transfer when using a choofer (gas, white spirit or kero stoves that burned with a blue and nonsooty flame) while blackened ones gave the best heat transfer over a campfire. But polished pots look better in a kitchen than blackened ones. Cheers, Rowan |
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11 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM (#2259841) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Melissa The two things I know of that cause these stains are Tomato and Boiling Eggs. Thinking about what your mom cooked in them might make it easier to find an antidote.. |
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12 Feb 08 - 02:52 AM (#2260132) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge Mostly potatoes, carrots, peas, and brussel sprouts. I think maybe I'll see if I can get some brillo pads. |
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12 Feb 08 - 02:55 AM (#2260134) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rowan From experience, Richard, you might find mechanising the brillo pads to be a time-saving move. Best of luck! Cheers, Rowan |
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12 Feb 08 - 04:01 AM (#2260149) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,Nessie Incidentally, a tried & trusted tip for (more recently) burnt-on food in saucepans is to moisten it, cover it liberally with salt, leave to dry overnight and the burnt offerings come off easily with the salt crust. This from someone whose family guess dinner is ready when the smoke alarm goes off. |
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12 Feb 08 - 12:18 PM (#2260489) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Jim Lad If they are anything other than cast iron, fling them out. There are plenty of healthy alternatives on the market. If they are cast and you really want to use them, Put a wire brush in your electric drill and give them a dry scrub. Wear goggles. Apply a mixture of lard and course salt and scrub with a cloth. Rinse. If you really want to restore them but not actually use them, why not just recycle them? They are only saucepans. Have a drink. |
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12 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM (#2260492) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge Oh, I think I'll probably have a drink! |
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12 Feb 08 - 02:26 PM (#2260603) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST Army tip...use WET SAND to scour them brilliant clean |
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12 Feb 08 - 02:50 PM (#2260621) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bee If you decide to go the way of mehanical scouring aids (your copper/steel wool pads), instead of rhubarb (which I've found a sure fire cure for carbon staining, or whatever it is), and you play guitar or other stringed instrument which requires you to have something left in the way of fingernails - wear gloves! I'm presently looking at a ruined thumbnail, caused by using a copper wire pad to clean a pan after husband cooked fried egg and potato to death in it. |
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12 Feb 08 - 03:14 PM (#2260658) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: paula t I burn pans quite regularly (!) and have found that soaking a pan overnight (or about a week, after a disaster with a pressure cooker and a curry!)in a strong solution of water and biological washing powder usually does the trick.Don't know how effective it would be for your pans- but it can't do any harm. |
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12 Feb 08 - 03:59 PM (#2260737) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rowan The GUEST describes half of the method I use when cleaning my camp ovens and Bedourie ovens in the bush. Camp ovens (I gather Americans call the Dutch ovens) are cast iron and Bedourie ovens are spun steel and, when trying to remove baked-on gunge the next morning the best method uses a slurry of sand and ashes from the hearth and a bit of elbow grease. The combination of dissolved ash (alkali), residual fat in the oven and grease is, effectively, soap and works a treat. So well in factg that you usually have to oil the surface of the metal to prevent it rusting. Cheers, Rowan |
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12 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM (#2260853) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas For corrosion resistant steel (CRES/"stainless") I've had good luck with one of the commercial oven cleaners. One available here called "EZ-Off" works at low(er) temperature, and it's just a spray on and let linger, rinse off. It helps to stick the stuff in a warm (140F/60C) oven for a few hours. A slight bit of minor scrubbing on stubborn spots may be needed, preferably with a CRES "scouring pad." For cast iron that's really crusty, I usually just stick it in the oven and run the oven "self-cleaning" cycle. (Ours is a "pyrolitic clean" kind, the "catalytic" kind might not work as well.) If you can get 500F/260 C the cast iron will come out like fresh-cast. (Smoke is usually minor, but you might want to ventilate some.) You will, obviously, want to re-season the cast iron; but if you wipe it with a little cooking oil and leave it in the bottom of the oven, with a fresh oil-wipe before each cycle, and use to oven for normal baking a few times it should be suitably prepared for the next trip to the wild places. Note the above note (somewhere back up there) re alumin(i)um melting point though. Don't try the "oven" method with Al pots. John |
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12 Feb 08 - 06:21 PM (#2260856) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,Emit Flesti Loosely attach strips of coarse grit emery paper to the surfaces requiring stain removal. Use any heavy duty tape. Just make sure the grit side of the emery paper is in loose contact with the stained surface. Suspend the tarnished pan, pot, or griddle directly in front of your largest guitar amplifier or better yet a PA speaker. Turn all dials to 11. Thrash! (Hearing protection advised.) -- Emit Flesti. |
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12 Feb 08 - 07:40 PM (#2260900) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas Emit - My kid did that with my stereo once when he came home with a new guitar. All it did was melted the coils in the speakers and ripped the cones. (They were pretty cheap speakers.) John |
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12 Feb 08 - 11:28 PM (#2261083) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Gurney Richard, as your Mum lived to that age, why change a winning team? They never did her any harm, and if anyone comments, point it out. French chefs NEVER wash their omlette pans, just wipe them out. They use cast iron, which is notably heavy. |
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13 Feb 08 - 12:01 AM (#2261117) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: wysiwyg As I have now said several times, grind it off and re-season it-- just as you would cast iron. ~Susan |
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13 Feb 08 - 12:37 AM (#2261139) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas Quite obviously, if Richard really is resisting identification as a "new man" and wishes NOT to be called a "girly-guy" this is an opportunity to ACQUIRE NEW POWER TOOLS! GRRRRIND out that SPOT. For this, at the least, a decently powerful compact drill motor, with arbors for wire brush and polishing wheel(s) is a necessity. Even better might be a flex shaft tool that will let him get deep into the bowels of the pot. My jigsaw has an attachment of this kind that's occasionally useful. There are numerous of the Dremel type tools that would be suitable, if a little "light-weight" for the task. If suitable tools are already at hand, note that when the MANLY-MAN speaks of "Accessories" it means bits, brushes, abrasives, chucks, collets, buffers and polishing compounds and other THINGS TO USE WITH POWER TOOLS. A REAL MAN would obviously choose NOW to get a new tool that accepts lots of special-purpose add-ons, and will require MORE ACCESSORIES later. While he's at the tool shop making his selections, I'd suggest that he get at least a half-dozen clamps, since a craftsman working on musical instruments (which is an accepable manly activity) never has enough clamps. John |
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14 Feb 08 - 12:55 AM (#2261970) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Gurney John, shame on you! How is Richard to build those manly muscles if he uses power tools? He'd look like Tim the Toolman, all poses and girly hands. Start with an adze, and finish with a draw-knife and 1" chisel. Plus, power tools leave lots of micro-grooves for further crap to anchor into. Wet-flatting paper will do the job, with cork blocks carved into suitable curves. 140 grit to remove the coating, 800 grit to finish off. 1200 grit will leave a finish like chrome. 1200 grit is good for repolishing dulled stainless-steel sinks. Wrap it around a rag for the corners. |
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14 Feb 08 - 03:00 AM (#2261999) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Mr Red Put one next to the kettle and listen to the name calling. P. Black arse K. Black arse P. Black arse ......... |
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14 Feb 08 - 07:41 AM (#2262151) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Grab The next time the Betterware catalogue drops through your door, order some of the carbon remover. It's worked for us in the past. |
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14 Feb 08 - 08:07 AM (#2262163) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Mr Red Does it work on footprince? |
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14 Feb 08 - 09:39 PM (#2262772) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bee Mr. red, yer killin' me! Richard, you cleaned up that pot yet? |
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15 Feb 08 - 01:05 AM (#2262818) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: The Fooles Troupe Better still, has he cleaned up his act yet? :-P |
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15 Feb 08 - 02:50 AM (#2262841) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge I can't believe all the interest on this! I'm going to get some brillo pads and maybe some of the advised potions when I go shopping at the weekend. |
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15 Feb 08 - 06:08 AM (#2262908) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas I get the distinct impression that disavowals made by Richard in his initial post were just a smokescreen. He's obviously been READING UP on things. John |
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15 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM (#2262909) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,gillegan I've been following this thread carefully in the hope of finding a cure for my blackened aluminium pot (c. 1950 or so) which (like Richard's)most definately is not any kind of deposit that can be scraped off. It is a stain that resulted from boiling water with a few drops of olive oil in it a couple of nights ago with a plan to make pasta. The water was turned off and left for the night and by morning the pot was black up to the water line. Despite doing first year introductory chemistry last year, I don't understand the carbon/aluminium reaction (oxidisation?) so if anyone is up to explaining it (along with what de-staining method to use), I'd be very interested. We are new to this area (Northern Territory, Australia) and I'm wondering if the high chlorine or calcium levels play a part as well. Speaking of which, I'm used to dealing with kettles going black, but here they go white!!!! Any ideas? |
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15 Feb 08 - 07:40 AM (#2262949) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge I gave up being a domestic god years ago. Jacqui, with whom I later settled down and who died in 2003, had "trained" me to clean her stainless steel sink after we did the washing up. Well, thre was a hiatus in our reltionship, and one of the girls I was then seeing, Nikki, was a physiotherapy student who lived in a student block attached to the teaching hospital. All students in that wing were women. So, one weekend, I arrived, and she was making a ratatouille, and we got sort of distracted not having seen each other for a fortnight. After that the ratatouille which was still cooking in the shared kitchen in that floor of the block was not quite so nice, and it took a bit of removing from the saucepan. After which I cleaned the stainless steeel sink as Jacqui had "trained" me. I heard a snigger at the door, and there was one of my girlfriend's female friends with a psychology textbook in her hand, and she asked "Does he wash his hands a lot too?" |
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15 Feb 08 - 08:28 AM (#2262982) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bee A similar distraction, once , back when I was a young thing, caused me to discover that the melting point of aluminum is 'simmer'. |
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15 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM (#2263098) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage I like the title of one of those books listed in JiK's article: How to Iron Your Own Damn Shirt SRS |
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15 Feb 08 - 12:23 PM (#2263218) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge I made some progress at lunchtime with "Cillit Bang" and nylon scourers. Still going to get some brillo pads and magic bullets tomorrow! |
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15 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM (#2263237) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: pdq Anything harder than plastic (as nylon) scrub pads will make small scratches that will fill soon after you start using the pans. In the US, most modern ovens have a self-cleaning setting. It keeps the oven at maximum temperature for an hour or more, burning all the crud off the sides, bottom and grills, Try removing all plastic or wooden handles. Place a few pans in the oven and run the "self-clean" cycle. It is hard to believe that any will melt. If so, they aren't good for much so you will not have a difficult decision concerning what to do with them. |
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15 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM (#2263277) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: wysiwyg If you have a LOT of pots and pans to recondition-- as you might if you were running a thrift shop-- then a machine grinder from the auto shop can be a very handy tool. (So can a sanding pad on a drill.) But for the home reconditioner, salt is a very good abrasive and it takes time to use, so that one gets to mull over all one's indiscretions and pot-misuses, or one's happy memories of the meals a relative produced out of the poor old pot... or the actual extent of the need to have clean-looking pots at all. ~Susan |
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15 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM (#2263303) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage From Martha Stewart Living:
Don't grind the pans. You'll introduce rough surfaces to more staining, introduce metal particles into your air, and remove the anodized surface the quote speaks of. Healthy Cookware. This article rates types of pots and pans. Do yourself a favor and save the energy--buy a good, new, healthy set of pans. SRS |
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15 Feb 08 - 03:55 PM (#2263388) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas The question From: GUEST,gillegan 15 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM raises the issue of there being two separate and distinct kinds of discoloration of aluminum pots. The original description, of heavy black deposits in the bottom of the pot, suggests the "curing on" of residual oils and vegetable residues over a long period of use. Especially with hand washing, it's almost impossible to get all the surface oils removed at each washing. When the pot is used the next time, the residual organic scum on the surface is hardened, and eventually is converted to what amounts to a layer of nearly pure carbon. This is the same process intentionally used to cure cast iron cookware; but the carbon is "chemically compatible" with iron and can "bond" with the cast iron, while it's essentially just a layer on the surface for aluminum. (It may be difficult to tell that there's a difference when you're trying to get it off.) "Cooked on carbon" is virtually inert to most chemical cleaning agents that can be safely used on aluminum, and removal is best done, if necessary, by abrasive methods. Martha Stewart can buy a new set of pots when they get dirty. You'll probably prefer to go ahead and use some grit, especially if "sentimental values" are involved. The description by gillegan, of discoloration that appears from just leaving water standing in the pot overnight is more likely from chemicals in the water, reacting with or depositing on the aluminum surface. Discoloration of this kind can usually be removed most readily – if at all – using vinegar (about 1 tbsp per qt of water) or cream of tartar (a couple of tsp per qt) and heating. Other "chemicals" such as bicarbonate of soda etc may have similar effect, and there are lots of things one can try. Quite likely, what we assume is cooked on carbon in Richard's case may be accompanied by some "chemical discoloring" due to long use with even the purest of common water supplies, so a combination of methods may be needed there, although abrasive attack sufficient to remove the carbon likely will get most of whatever else is present. In gillegan's case the very rapid discoloration (overnight? - or was it really a couple of nights?) suggests a level of contamination in the water supply that would be likely to be well known by those in any area where it occurs, and local advice would likely turn up recommendations from those who've found what works with the local water. The vinegar or tartar treatment, of those commonly effective elsewhere, is probably most likely to work, but may not be effective for "peculiar local conditions." AUS has a well-developed (on paper) water quality program1 that is apparently aggressively implemented at least in some areas but local conditions may slip out of the norm. Less stringent standards are applied to "small systems" with up to about 1,000 users, and there appears to be significant use of "bore water" and rainfall catchment sources that may be contrived, constructed, and maintained by individual users. There are apparently some local areas where fairly high "trace materials" – especially minerals – may be present in locally accessed water; but I found no immediately accessible info on widespread areas where local water might be of particularly low/variant quality. Some areas do appear to provide separate "drinking water" supplies with a second and independent "lawn and laundry water" supply. In an area where this is done, using only the "drinking water" supply for cooking would be advisable. There appear to be areas where local "point of dispensing" filtration is recommended, but they're not identified in what I found. If there is significant concern about the water in the new location being "different" than what you're used to, the Water Made Clear: A consumer guide to accompany the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines 2004 may give you clues as to who to ask. (See the "Further Information section near the end.) The local water provider quite likely can supply a recent "analysis" of what they're giving you, if that's applicable. If you're on an "independent supply" you should be able to identify an appropriate testing agency to find out what you're using, and periodic retesting would probably be a good idea. 1 National Water Quality Management Strategy: This site identifies some rather large "methods" documents that describe "how it's supposed to be done," but give little detail about specific water sources and common inclusions. A local supplier is more likely to have the information you really want; but this document may give you some clues on how to contact the right people. John |
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15 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM (#2263499) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Bee When I was a young thing, relatively ignorant about various sorts of kitchen chemistry, I inadvertently invented am indestructible polymer. The pot's long gone, but I'm curious about what, if anything, might have solved the problem. I'd gotten several pieces of cheap unseasoned cast iron cookware, and successfully seasoned the shallow frypans. There was a dutch oven type pot, however, and here my problem began. The pot being quite deep, it needed quite a bit of (likely canola) cooking oil to coat the interior. I stuck it in the oven on low heat, as I'd done the others, and unfortunately forgot about it for several hours. The oil, once hot, seems to have run down the sides of the pot, leaving a bit more than a quarter inch of oil in the bottom. This oil had gelled into a kind of hard transparent yellowish rubber. It could be dented but not removed with a sharp instrument. It was tougher than anything I've ever seen in a cookpot, for sure. I soaked the pot. I boiled water in it. I boiled detergent and water in it. I boiled vinegar in it. I can't remember everything I tried, but I had no success at all in even reducing the glossy surfce of the stuff. The pot was a write off. |
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15 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM (#2263502) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rumncoke Don't use hot solutions of washing soda, or any alkaline substance, in aluminium pans - they will, in the worst case develop holes, or if less affected, the surface will become roughened. |
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15 Feb 08 - 08:54 PM (#2263564) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rowan We are new to this area (Northern Territory, Australia) and I'm wondering if the high chlorine or calcium levels play a part as well. Speaking of which, I'm used to dealing with kettles going black, but here they go white!!!! Any ideas? JiK has done it again with the serious info but, in Oz, you can buy from most supermarkets a product named "CLR" (for Calcium, Lime & Rust) which is designed to remove the scale that deposits the preciptated magnesium and calcium salts disssolved in the bore water intil it's boiled. Bee, the gunge in the bottom of your camp oven is polymerised oil and is usually removed mechanically. When 'proving' cast iron cookware a thin film of oil is sufficient. Cheers, Rowan |
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16 Feb 08 - 02:08 AM (#2263641) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: JohnInKansas Bee - The problem with removing your indestructible polymer is in the "I boiled it ..." Plain cast iron could quite safely be tossed on the coals of a good charcoal (or even coal) bed and brought to at least a dull red glow, which should effectively pyrolize (burn off) anything with an organic origin. You stopped at around 200F, and needed 200C (550F) or a little more. Cracking a cast iron piece by too rapid quenching (e.g. dumping a red hot piece into a bucket of water?) could be a possibility, but simple still-air cooling has never caused a problem with any that I've cleaned this way. (Some, but possibly not all, range ovens can reach temperatures high enough to be effective. Most US ranges indicate 500F as a maximum setting, which should be sufficient; but some may not get quite to the maximum that's on the knob.) At boiling temperature you were probably just increasing the degree of polymerization and making the stuff tougher, regardless of what "additives" you tried. Having seen examples very similar to the material described, I think it may have been too "gummy" for very effective abrasive or scrapin' 'n scratchin' methods, and I can understand why you elected the "quicker solution" and discarded it. As the gunk is fairly insoluble, the only thing reasonable to try might have been to increase the temp enough (350F - 400F?) to make the gunk hard enough to crack before going to the wire brush, or going to the above indicated 200C or higher to just burn it off. John |
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16 Feb 08 - 03:56 AM (#2263656) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge This is starting to sound like the discussion we had of re-kosherisation on the glatt chicken thread... and indeed almost a justification of the rather derided point of view of Rabbi-Sol (or was it a guest rabbi?) about heating kitchen items to red-heat. |
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16 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM (#2263800) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: danensis I always thought "Home on the Range" was about the great outdoors. John |
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17 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM (#2264413) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge Well, I have some of those things I was told to mix into a paste... The two worst pans actually yielded to Cillit Bang overnight and a light scrape with a very blunt knife, then scotchbrite pads. Those were deposits. THere are a couple of others that are discoloured but seem to ahve no deposits. I'll try teh pastes in them. I also have an old Sunbeam powered frying pan - glorious historic artefact - but while the inside was fair the outside was patchy black. It is currently soaking in a bucket of a household cleaner with ammonia (but you can't immerse the electrical controls or connections). Also running dishwasher loads of old partial dinner and tea services. All bar one is incomplete - but they were good china in their day... I know I can't regularly run them in dishwasher or they will bleach, but one run should be OK. |
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17 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM (#2264560) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Stilly River Sage They'll etch, they'll do all sorts of not-good things. Don't run good stuff in there if it is antique, etc. Or at least don't use the caustic commerical soap. You'd be surprised how many places want the old incomplete sets to turn around and sell to those who are trying to complete their own sets. If you're not using all of these things don't just chuck them in a garage sale, surf the web and find some of the services that match up china (many of them also do silver and flatware). SRS |
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17 Feb 08 - 03:19 PM (#2264734) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge That's interesting SRS - I have some pretty tasty cutlery sets with many but not quite all of the sets. Bone handles - so they are NOT going in the dishwasher. Then there are my mother's furs and my father's ivory. How the hell do I sell those these days without getting painted red from head to toe? |
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17 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM (#2265061) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Rowan Also running dishwasher loads of old partial dinner and tea services. All bar one is incomplete - but they were good china in their day... I know I can't regularly run them in dishwasher or they will bleach, but one run should be OK. If the decoration on the china includes "gold" or "silver" colours (usually lines around other parts of the decoration, dishwashers aren't a good idea even once. Apart from the usual caveat concerning the detergents used in dishwashers there's the elevated temperatures used in most. Bone handles are best kept out of hot water, even when washing up the old fashioned way and older china services were produced in anticipation of being washed in water no hotter than your hands could handle, using soap that was unsophisticated. The only dishwashers I use rely on two hands and some persuasion but I recall seeing the after effects of dishwashers on aluminium surfaces; something in the detergent and/or temperature caused many aluminium surfaces to darken; it may have been the use of dishwashers and incautious selection of detergents & temperatures that caused the darkening that has been described above. It seems to me that the almost universal use of dishwashers that has lead to the replacement of most metals in cookware (copper, brass, aluminium, cast iron and ordinary steel) with stainless steel. Ditto for perfectly good carbon steel knives, especially ones with timber handles; dishwashers don't do any part of them a lot of good whereas washing them by hand, one at a time seems to prolong their sharpness and general useability. But then, I'm known as a bit of a Luddite. Cheers, Rowan |
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18 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM (#2265138) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: Richard Bridge My mother had a dishwasher that we insisted she buy when she moved to her bungalow in 1993. I don't think it's ever been used. So it didn't cause any blackening. |
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18 Feb 08 - 03:47 AM (#2265144) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: GUEST,Dazbo at work When I worked in a brewery there was plenty of caustic soda solution used for cleaning. Many of the workers used to bring their oven furnitureetc in to soak in the tanks to clean them. It was always funny when the dimmer employees (or those who hadn't been warned off) put aluminium into the solution and when the came to retrieve their items they'd dissolved away to nothing. |
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18 Feb 08 - 08:11 AM (#2265265) Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans From: The Fooles Troupe Well Rowan, I was going to |