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05 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM (#2280606) Subject: StrtsO'Lon=Paclbel Canon?? From: Art Thieme It dawned on me a while ago that Streets Of London (Ralph McTell) is made with the chords to, and pretty much the melody of, Pachelbel's Canon! Am I correct? Art Thieme |
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05 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM (#2280613) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Ken Brock I don't know, but I think that Paul Anka's "I Don't Like to Sleep Alone" is. |
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05 Mar 08 - 05:53 PM (#2280615) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 The sequence certainly has a lot of similarities - Remember "Groovy Kind of Love" by Wayne Fontana - the tune is exactly the same as a sonatina by the composer Clementi. |
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05 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM (#2280690) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice I just listened to the song (Streets of London) and see no similarities with the much over played Pachabel's Canon at all Charlotte (played both on the piano too) |
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05 Mar 08 - 06:57 PM (#2280699) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Jeri I've been told, and I believe from hearing them both, that the chord sequence is the same, or at least SoL is derivative. |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:15 PM (#2280704) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Jeri Lest anyone think 'derivative' is a negative term, I believe P's Cannon might have been the inspiration for the tune. It came first, and the chords sound similar to me. |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:27 PM (#2280713) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted The chord progression is the same, as is the pulse--the melody mostly the same, but ends with a "folk" tag, rather than Pachelbel's- The chord progression has been really popular, and shows up a lot of places--"One Tin Soldier" for instance--and really, when you get down to it, is basis of the "Mr. Bojangles" progression that used for so many songs-- If you can handle it emotionally, Art, PM me your email address and I'll bounce back an interesting metal guitar version of the maestro's grand work. |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:37 PM (#2280718) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted And, obsessive/compulsive that I am, before posting, I grabbed the three relevant pieces and listened to them side by side(the Paul Anka thing is similar for about one measure in the bass part, and goes, as he says, "My Way"-- |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:42 PM (#2280725) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle Pretty sure there was a previous lengthy thread on just the same subject, and just how many songs are based on the same chord progression. (And I've previously mentioned the Clemnenti sonatina) There was also a hilarious video clip on Youtube of this 'cellist who absolutely HATES Pachelbel's Canon because the 'cello only gets to play the same 8 notes all the way through. (Go on, Google it, past my bedtime to do the searches!) |
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05 Mar 08 - 07:43 PM (#2280726) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Desert Dancer It is a common chord progression. Whether there's any actual relation is an interesting question. See this examination of the topic. ;-) ~ Becky in Tucson |
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05 Mar 08 - 08:39 PM (#2280765) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Thanks for posting that link,Becky, it's very,very,funny-- |
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05 Mar 08 - 08:53 PM (#2280769) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Sorcha Well, there ARE only so many notes and so many progressions and so many combinations.....some things are just bound to be similar at least. |
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05 Mar 08 - 08:54 PM (#2280770) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: nager Agreed: Hilarious - and brilliantly informative! |
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06 Mar 08 - 02:04 AM (#2280903) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Liz the Squeak Art - I thought the same thing years ago. You can sing both together and they sound pretty good... Stock, Aitken and Waterman once confessed that the Kylie Minogue hit 'I should be so lucky' was based on Pachabel's canon. That one isn't so easy to see though. LTS |
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06 Mar 08 - 03:29 AM (#2280934) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 Will Mr Pachelbel be rising from the grave to claim his PRS fee? |
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06 Mar 08 - 06:28 AM (#2281010) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Mr Happy Don't think twice its the streets of London? |
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06 Mar 08 - 08:07 AM (#2281086) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle "Will Mr Pachelbel be rising from the grave to claim his PRS fee?" Not unless: a) he invested a few guilders during his lifetime to make sure that his £100 subscription had been paid b) he can persuade people that his date of death (about 1706 from memory) is less than 70 years ago. |
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06 Mar 08 - 08:24 AM (#2281101) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,nateba Dog years |
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06 Mar 08 - 09:20 AM (#2281142) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson Does anyone really care if it is or isn't Pachibollocks canon or howitzer or whatever, The Streets of London stands up on it's own mertits, great song. eric |
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06 Mar 08 - 09:49 AM (#2281169) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Ken Brock I think the chord progression is also the one in the harpsichord break by George Martin in "In My Life" |
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06 Mar 08 - 10:53 AM (#2281206) Subject: RE: Is Strts Of Lndn truly Pchlbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Eric the Red-Actually,yes--I care very much what "Streets of London" is and isn't--as a musician and composer, I spend most of my time thinking about the component parts of all kinds of music(which is probably why I never get anything else done)-- They even teach you to do it in music school--which, for good or ill, is why so much music sounds the way it does-- |
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06 Mar 08 - 12:29 PM (#2281290) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle Thanks, Becky, that's the clip I was thinking of. Try Ivan Drever's "Long December Night" then: the intro is stright from Mr P himself! |
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06 Mar 08 - 12:39 PM (#2281295) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Of course, Ralph pinched the tune from Al Stewart - or so some people say! |
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06 Mar 08 - 01:40 PM (#2281355) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: catspaw49 Becky.....Thanks for the YouTube clip......I laughed myself silly and when Karen came home this AM we both laughed all through it again. His other stuff is pretty cute as well, especially the "Friends" thing. Thanks from both of us. Spaw and Karenspaw |
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06 Mar 08 - 01:54 PM (#2281371) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Acorn4 Just to throw a cat among the pigeons a bit, does a canon have a chord sequence? Pachelbel was a mate of J.S.Bach's dad, and a canon is actually written contrapuntally. ie: horizontal melody lines rather than vertical chords - most of the contemporary composers (except the French ones like RAMEAU who did tend to think chordally) wrote in this way and the chords were only created incidentally when the repeated overlapping melody line created a harmony -a canon is like a bit more complicated version of a round, like we used to sing Frere Jacques or London's Burning at school. Can Ralph therefore be acquitted on a technicality? |
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06 Mar 08 - 02:19 PM (#2281388) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T SoL also has the same chord progression as theIrish song "Cavan Girl" Don T. |
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06 Mar 08 - 02:55 PM (#2281434) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Art Thieme What the hell has Rabbbi Sol got to do with this! That's terrible thread creep, and you should be ashamed--- and ostracised too. Art |
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06 Mar 08 - 03:05 PM (#2281444) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Vulgar Boatman As far as I know, Ralph McTell and Al Stewart devised the tune together, or at least both agreed to use it, and wrote different words to it. Al recorded 'Samuel Oh How You've Changed' before 'Streets' was recorded, though not long before. I played support for Al sometime about 1969, but I can't remember if Ralph's version was out then. As for Pachelbel, look in a dictionary of musical themes and see how many classical themes match each other - there's yards of them. KYBTTS |
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06 Mar 08 - 03:22 PM (#2281470) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Ross Lots of other songs based on it too Here's two So Sally Can Wait/Don't Look Back in Anger - Oasis All together Now - The Farm |
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06 Mar 08 - 05:20 PM (#2281558) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Acorn4-as folk musicians know full well, even though the melody is a line of single notes, those notes pretty clearly define the vertical harmonies. Pachelbel's basso continuo dictates the chords pretty clearly, and, though they often are stated horizontally chords are still chords-- As to the other, when you write music in the folk idiom, the ideas that you use have been used for the last 400 years, so it's pretty hard to find anything "new", and if you did, it wouldn't be "folk". |
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06 Mar 08 - 05:25 PM (#2281566) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice "as folk musicians know full well, even though the melody is a line of single notes, those notes pretty clearly define the vertical harmonies." Ohhh I would think other genre musicians are aware of this too. " P's Cannon" he owned a cannon too? *LOL* Charlotte (the comic view from Ma and Pa's piano stool) |
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06 Mar 08 - 07:29 PM (#2281680) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: McGrath of Harlow Same chords don't mean too much in themselves You can play Kevin Barry and The Sash with the same chords as each other. They make a nice medley, if you've the nerve.. |
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06 Mar 08 - 09:31 PM (#2281756) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Just shoot me. |
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07 Mar 08 - 12:34 AM (#2281817) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: katlaughing Becky, thanks for the link. Spaw, thanks for pointing it out to me. Rog and I just had blast watching that guy. |
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07 Mar 08 - 02:37 AM (#2281838) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson To M.Ted, why does it matter, Woody Guthrie, Ewan MacColl and the like never had problems borrowing old melodies for new songs. What a totaly pointless thread this is. eric |
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07 Mar 08 - 04:06 AM (#2281880) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,fogie Simon Richie wrote a tune called the Valiant which we used to run Pach Canon on from - a great tune with a descending bass very similar |
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07 Mar 08 - 04:55 AM (#2281899) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Nick >>I think the chord progression is also the one in the harpsichord break by George Martin in "In My Life" I don't In My Life - C G Am C7 F Fm C Streets of - C G Am Em F C D7 G |
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07 Mar 08 - 05:31 AM (#2281919) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,edthefolkie Both Streets of London and Pachelbel's Canon are based on a traditional tune called Boulevards of Belper, collected by either John Tams or Roger Watson. See first Muckram Wakes album me duck. |
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07 Mar 08 - 06:53 AM (#2281953) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST, Sminky Nick - the correct chord progression for Streets is: C G Am Em F C FMa7 G Ralph himself said so. |
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07 Mar 08 - 05:39 PM (#2282477) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Vulgar Boatman Ed, you're a bad bugger! And that's a compliment. Is there still a club in Belper? |
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07 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM (#2282664) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,leeneia I listened to the tune for Streets of London in the Digitrad, and I don't think it has the same chord progression as Pachelbel's Canon. |
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08 Mar 08 - 12:41 AM (#2282697) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted You're not the sharpest knife in the drawer Eric the Red--this isn't a criticism of anyone, it is a useful piece of knowledge--if your trying to play any of the above mentioned tunes, it helps quite a bit to know the common root--and, if you were working up your own rendition of "Streets of London", and wanted an instrumental break, it helps to know where you can find a bunch of melodies that will fit-- |
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08 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM (#2282698) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST Think of the passamezzo moderno - G C G D G C G D G -which fits "Boil them cabbage down" for one - it has spawned one way or another hundreds of tunes, and I'd say half of them were deliberately crafted to fit it. |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:11 AM (#2282714) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: BK Lick That canon's pretty darn ubiquitous, for sure. Check out Alicia Keys's "No One" which won Best Female R&B Vocal Performance and Best R&B Song at the 2008 Grammy Awards. |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:53 AM (#2282729) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Tunesmith This is all about some peoples belief that chord progressions are melodies. Down through the years, I've had lots of people strum chord progressions to me and are surprised that I can't "name that tune". They of course can hear the tune inside their head but to the outside listener it's just a series of strummed chords. |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:56 AM (#2282732) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Dave Hanson Perhaps not the sharpest knife in the drawer M. Ted but not pretentious either. eric |
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08 Mar 08 - 03:04 AM (#2282736) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Mr Red Mole Catcher! Over-played? never never never. Unless you were using a post ironic pun. A canon, is, by definition, overplayed. n'cest pas? |
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08 Mar 08 - 10:39 AM (#2282876) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: M.Ted Don't sell yourself short, Mr. Red-- |
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08 Mar 08 - 12:06 PM (#2282933) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "Both Streets of London and Pachelbel's Canon are based on a traditional tune called Boulevards of Belper, collected by either John Tams or Roger Watson" John Tams and Roger Watson are older than Pachabel?? Good god! they do hold their ages well *LOL* Charlotte (it was on a Monday morning that the gasman came to call) |
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08 Mar 08 - 01:58 PM (#2283042) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Big Al Whittle So this bloke Pachelbel is going round singing a song about his photocopier, and he's nicked Ralph's song. I call it despicable - pinching a traditional folksong like Ralph's. |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:06 PM (#2283049) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (inactive) "So this bloke Pachelbel is going round singing a song about his photocopier, and he's nicked Ralph's song." and don't forget nicking tunes from John Tams and Roger Watson.. Charlotte (keeping an eye open for this Pachabel person) |
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08 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM (#2283055) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Stringsinger Hi Art, I believe that there are many tunes that follow this progression. "One Tin Soldier" "Streets of London", even "Waltzing Mathilda" can be made to work. You could re-work the Beatles' "Let It Be". "Here's a Song for All the Good People". Even the tune "The Black Flies" could be squeezed into this progression. The progression will work for any dance tune (ala contra) that backs up a fiddler using just a major chord substitution. Richard Dyer-Bennett used the progression for an into to "The Jolly Rogues of Lynn". A lot of pop songs employ this progression-device as they used to for the ubiquitous I, vi minor, ii minor and V7. But what the heck, you knew all this anyhow. Frank |
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09 Mar 08 - 05:43 PM (#2283912) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Big Mick Yeah Frank, but until guys like you and Art put it to the post, it isn't gospel.........***chuckle**. Which is just my way of saying thanks to folks like you, Art, Sandy and Caroline, Miss Jean Ritchie, Mark Ross, Dan Milner, and so many others, for sharing your incredible knowledge with us. Every so often it just needs to be said that you honor us with your presence. All the best, Mick |
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09 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM (#2283951) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Art Thieme I never knew than Taco Bell had a cannon! Overkill if you ask me. Frank, Without really thinking about it, there probably are 2 or 3 songs in my own repertory lurking with the same progression. Thanks all for your good input. And no offense intended to Ralph McTell. That's for sure. Art |
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10 Mar 08 - 07:25 AM (#2284184) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST Re "Boulevards of Belper" - sorry I was in error, this traditional tune dates from around 1971 not 1671. There is still a club in Belper me duck - must admit I've never been there. Website: http://www.geocities.com/geoff.deighton@btinternet.com/index.html |
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10 Mar 08 - 07:44 AM (#2284190) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Big Al Whittle there are no down and outs in Belper. its quite posh. they even have a delicatessen nowadays selling french loaves and stuff like that. |
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13 Nov 15 - 10:56 AM (#3750524) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST,Boo If the chord sequences don't sound identical you probably need to work on your musical ear a bit! |
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13 Nov 15 - 01:55 PM (#3750565) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Stanron One of the reasons the chord sequence is successful and used so often in different ways is that it is based on a formula. Fifths and seconds. C to G is a fifth, G to Am is a second, Am to Em is a fifth and Em to F is a second. F to C is a fifth and C to D is a second. After that the pattern breaks to achieve resolution. The human ear is so attuned to music that this kind of pattern is recognised even though most people could not define the pattern. Another example of a dual interval pattern is Hotel California. That is fifths and thirds. Am to E is a fifth, E to G is a third, G to D is a fifth and D to F is a third, and so on until the pattern breaks for resolution (usually in bar eight). The use of patterns in chords can be reflected in melody. Pachelbel is better at this than McTell but McTell was definitely better with words. With a bit of experimentation you can make up your own chord sequences using interval patterns, there's no guarantee they will be original. |
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26 Mar 17 - 12:13 PM (#3846774) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST Pachelbel: I - V - vi - iii - IV - I - II(7) - V Streets: I - V - vi - iii - IV - I - IV - V Almost identical - the 7th chord is different in Streets. |
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26 Mar 17 - 12:15 PM (#3846775) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: GUEST Oops - my last post - I have the two mixed up - the top progression with the funky II(7) chord is Streets ... sorry for the mix up. |
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26 Mar 17 - 02:52 PM (#3846806) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Big Al Whittle fancy that! all these years Ralph's been playing it wrong! the scallywag! |
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26 Mar 17 - 07:16 PM (#3846844) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle Funny how old threads re-surface! 'Twas me that suggested looking up the "Pachelbel's Rant" video on YouTube, which Becky did, back in 2008. I also suggested trying Ivan Drever's "Long December Night" - just listen to the instrumental intro and interludes in this: remind you of anything? (2 of my favourite musicians, by the way, especially Duncan's fiddle playing!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dytj_JfG1Ug |
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26 Mar 17 - 07:57 PM (#3846848) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Jack Campin This is rather addictive in a sick sort of way. The Warped Canon Page |
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27 Mar 17 - 04:40 AM (#3846873) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Bugsy "SIMILAR" that's the clue. So is 'Meet Me On The Corner" Lindisfarne and "Farewell to the Gold" Paul Metzers. CHeers Bugsy |
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27 Mar 17 - 04:47 AM (#3846875) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Mr Red If you are going to get inspiration, osmosis and all that jazz, Pachelbel is a good tank to be immersed in. IMNSHO. Chord progression? Is that not the flavour? Any song writers/composers out there who haven't had inspiration after a recent visit to a Folk Club or session? No? Really? I don't believe you! |
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27 Mar 17 - 01:15 PM (#3846971) Subject: RE: Is Streets Of London truly Pachelbels Canon??? From: Tattie Bogle No, I'm not knocking it! Love the original tune and it has been known for some of your folk musicians in Captain's Bar in Edinburgh to do their version of it, just improvising on the chord sequence - as was suggested further up the thread might have been Pachelbel's idea! In answer to Mr Red, I used go to a songwriting workshop with an indie band musician: seems they DO start with chords first, (any sign of a predictable sequence and they'll throw in something totally obtuse!) then hang a tune on the words, then think what words they might to it. Complete reversal of my usual songwriting, where words come first, then tune, then what chords fit with tune! |