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23 Sep 08 - 03:11 PM (#2448376) Subject: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Some of us had fun on the 'Bertsongs' thread a few months ago, identifying instances in which the great A. L. Lloyd had tinkered with - or in some cases altered drastically - various songs from traditional sources. What I'd like to know is: have we firm evidence of traditional (or 'source') singers doing the same kind of thing? Did Harry Cox use the broadsides he possessed to fill out texts learned aurally? Did Walter Pardon or Joseph Taylor improve the melodies of their songs? We might infer as much, but I'm looking for specifics. |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:24 PM (#2448392) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Dave Ruch American folklorist Robert D. Bethke, who studied under Ken Goldstein and collected songs in the Adirondacks, told me the following in an email within the last couple of years. This was after I had told him about Ermina Pincombe, a traditional singer I have come to know lately who took old song fragments and melodies she remembered from childhood and fleshed them out with other sources: "Ermina's life-long inclination to search out and to complete texts for pieces learned from a significant female family relative is highly typical of documented women traditional singers in regional US, including Almeda Riddle in Ozarks, women in Appalachia, and elsewhere. Many publications confirm this gender inclination in commentary, and I believe there are various academic articles/book chapters that speak to it, by feminist folklorists." |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:28 PM (#2448396) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Goose Gander It is part of the folk process. Where do you think all those songs deriving from the 'The Unfortunate Rake' came from (for example)? |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:30 PM (#2448398) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: M.Ted In fact, that's a pretty good model of the creative process in general--you take bits and pieces of one kind or another and fashion them into something that is "complete". |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM (#2448402) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters "Where do you think all those songs deriving from the 'The Unfortunate Rake' came from (for example)?" As I said, I was asking about actual examples, not inferences (at one time people seemed to assume that song variants were the result of poor memory and/or 'Chinese Whispers'). Dave's contribution is the kind of thing I'm looking for. |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM (#2448403) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Wesley S Do you think these issues could be overexamined sometimes? |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM (#2448416) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham Overexamining things is one way of acquiring knowledge! One man's meat! Brian. Here's one for you. In the late 60s, early 70s Jim Eldon and I found a veritable nest of singers in a small village on the East Riding coast. One of the interesting things was that different singers could sing us vastly different versions of the same songs and this was from singers living practically next door to each other for most of their lives. An interesting example arose that seems to suit your criterion. We had 3 different versions of 'An Acre of Land' (an offshoot of Child 2), that is, different tunes, different choruses and different run-downs of items in the crop growing/production cycle. After a few weeks 2 of the singers who had sizable repertoires were getting on famously, not having been aware of each other's singing previously. Of course we went back to record the female singer a week or so later and found she had extra verses in her version which she later admitted she had nicked off her male neighbour. All 3 versions can be heard on the Yorkshire Garland website, but the quality of recording is rather poor due to our cheap original equipment. |
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23 Sep 08 - 03:59 PM (#2448418) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Goose Gander Here's a brief example: California 'composed' by Bill Jackson in California, a re-written stanza of Root Hog or Die. |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:12 PM (#2448424) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: treewind Wasn't Gordon Hall notorious for adding to his songs when he heard versions of them that had other verses? Anahata |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:18 PM (#2448426) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman I believe Jim Carroll is on holiday. which would explain his out of character reticence, regarding WalterPardon. |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM (#2448433) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: KathWestra Hi Brian, You asked specifically about U.K. source singers, but if you want to broaden your query to include U.S. tradition-bearers, you might want to be in touch with Jean Ritchie (you can PM her under her Mudcat name, Kytrad). She grew up in a family of traditional singers in Kentucky and, as you know, went on to make a major place for herself in the folk revival. If you haven't yet had this conversation with Jean, she would be a great person for you to chat with about what she herself has done with some of her many traditional family songs. Kathy |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM (#2448436) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Matthew Edwards >Do you think these issues could be overexamined sometimes?< On the contrary, Brian has drawn attention to an issue which has very rarely been explored; which is not whether variations in folk songs occur, but how and why individual singers have introduced variations. Dave Ruch's example of a singer "filling out" a fragment learned from a relative by reference to a printed source may be a more common practice than collectors have acknowledged. Didn't Carpenter encourage Bell Duncan to come up with fuller versions of ballads by showing her examples in Child? I think I've seen in Henry Burstow's 'Reminiscences' that he looked out for 'better' or more complete versions of songs he already knew by listening to other singers or buying broadsides. Mike Yates recollected his surprise at spotting some songbooks on the floor when he visited Fred Jordan. In general though we have very few examples of songs recorded in the same family or community at different times to allow any sort of diachronic study of how songs and tunes have actually been altered. The Copper family do show some quite subtle variations but in their case the existence of a family songbook probably stabilised the older versions so that their particular tradition was a very conservative one. My own overwhelming impression on listening to older recordings is how much accents and speech rhythms have changed so that when, for example, Roger Hinchliffe sings the same songs as his father sang he is still singing from deep within a long tradition but in a different voice which brings that tradition into our own time. |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM (#2448441) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: RTim With regard to The Copper Family - I think Bob certainly used other song books to "Pad" out songs he heard his own father sing - I seem to recall mention of using some of Williams's texts from Folk Song of the Upper Thames - Rose In June (or Love in June) being a case in point. All my points are totally off the top of my head, with NO checking of references. Tim Radford |
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23 Sep 08 - 04:50 PM (#2448450) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: dick greenhaus I suspect that there's a difference between soeone who's part of a tradition tinkering with songs, and someone who's a student of the tradition doing the same. |
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23 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM (#2448470) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Liam's Brother People who sing pop songs work with a copyrighted text and melody. They may, of course, deviate from it. Some common reasons are a) failure to learn words or music properly at first, b) forgetting words or music with time, or c) desire to 'improve' or expand text or melody. People who sing songs traditionally are subject to the same agents of change. When we hear an 8-verse song and the 6th verse of it has only 2 lines while all the others have 4, we suspect 'a' or 'b' above. When we hear a someone sing a new verse or new line in an old song, possibly with reference to a recent event, we suspect 'c'. The traditional singers I know come in 3 kinds: 1) those who sing every song exactly as they heard it and would never change a word, 2) those who alter songs rarely (perhaps by localising a place name or varying the melody slighty), or 3) those who sometimes treat a song as an architect treats a beautiful old barn that his client would like to inhabit. The great Ozark singer, Almeda Riddle, sang 'sWord' in 'Bingen on the Rhine' though, we can well suspect that she knew the W in sword is silent. So many place names have been localised in so many folk songs that there's no need to give an example. The great Paddy Tunney is said by many who knew him well to have made up the much-loved verse in 'The Green Fields of Canada' that includes the phrase, 'the fiddlers who flaked out the old mountain reels'. Jean Ritchie's father was the schoolteacher in Viper, Kentucky. He had many ballads with much fuller texts than collectors typically found in the Appalachians. Why would the schoolteacher not have the best texts? He could read and had access to books. Singers take pride in their songs. Some because they are 'exactly the way a forebearer sang it'; some because they are 'the original', some because 'they are from here'; and some because they are 'different' or 'best'. |
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23 Sep 08 - 05:37 PM (#2448478) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: sharyn Can't get you the specifics right now, Brian, but I have a recording of a Scottish traditional singer who was questioned about a verse in a ballad. She said she knew the verse, but didn't like it and didn't sing it. I'm pretty sure the song was "Andrew Lammie" and the singer one of the Stewarts -- Margaret? Would look it up, but left hand and foot are broken just now. |
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23 Sep 08 - 06:34 PM (#2448517) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham Brian, There are numerous examples of what you are after. Fred Jordan sang plenty of songs he got from people in the revival. Roger mentioned above only started singing after Frank had died, at the instigation of Ian Russell who recorded his dad. Bob Copper was a collector and writer. All of the traditional singers who now sing at the festivals have learnt material from sources out of their own tradition. Will Noble sings songs from the Haxey Hood game. He picked up some of his songs from the radio. The Scottish travellers almost all augmented their repertoires from books. By the way, Matthew, it was Bell Robertson, not Bell Duncan. Duncan was Greig's fellow collector. An understandable slip. An interesting example is the Whitby version of 'The Tailor's Britches' from the singing of Arthur Woods, currently being sung by John Greaves and Martin Carthy. An important bearer of the tradition, Arthur probably rewrote this excellent version himself. the only other versions known are 4 fragments from the south coast, not published until after Arthur had been recorded. |
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24 Sep 08 - 07:07 AM (#2448813) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Matthew Edwards Actually I did mean Bell Duncan of Lambhill, Aberdeenshire who was a major source of ballads for James Madison Carpenter. However I was quite wrong to suggest that Carpenter may have encouraged her to supplement her repertoire from the Child collection; instead he claimed that she "sang sixty-five Child ballads with tunes, never a single reference to manuscript". However he did have some doubts about some of her sources. Julia Bishop in her excellent essay 'Bell Duncan: 'The greatest ballad singer of all time'? in Ian Russell and David Atkinson (eds.) 'Folk Song: Tradition, Revival, and Re-Creation', Elphinstone Institute, Aberdeen, 2004, pp.393-421 examines Carpenter's claims. Julia Bishop concluded that "Ballad books in particular appear to have been an important source both for [Bell Duncan] and for her mother and/or the other sources, direct and indirect, of her repertoire." As far as Julia Bishop is concerned the use of printed sources at some stage in the transmission in no way compromises Bell Duncan's status as an important ballad singer, although in Carpenter's eyes and in terms of the scholarship of his era (1920's and 30's) this would have reduced her "authenticity". The interplay between printed, manuscript and oral sources within folk tradition is fascinating and complex and I think Brian has raised an important point about how traditional singers recreated and reinvented their material. I personally would subscribe to the "grandfather's axe" view how of traditions evolve:- "This is my grandfather's axe; I've given it a new blade, and my father gave it a new shaft, but it's still my grandfather's old axe." |
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24 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM (#2448819) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Sabine Baring Gould states in his book (or the edition I read) somewhat like: "This was such a pretty song and it was a shame it was so short, so I added a couple of verses" Waley Waley - since you ask. |
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24 Sep 08 - 07:39 AM (#2448832) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: pavane In his introduction to The Isle of France (about a shipwrecked convict), Nic Jones mentioned that Cecil Sharp had fleshed out a collected fragment to be singable. |
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24 Sep 08 - 08:33 AM (#2448872) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman while gamekeepers lie sleeping,the version that Bob Roberts sang,was it added to by Bob Roberts. as a singer,What matters to me is a good tune and a good set of words,does it matter whether the song was altered by a revivalist or a traditional singer,or does it matter at all?. I am of the opinion that songs have always been altered[though without travelling through time],Icant prove it. |
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24 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM (#2448890) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,doc.tom Perhaps we should make some base distinctions? Song altered by a traditional singer UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF A COLLECTOR/REVIVALIST (e.g. Geogrge Dunn supplied with broadsides by Roy Palmer, Joseph Taylor entering FSS competitions). Songs adapted by a non-student traditional singer(Harry Cox, Walter Pardon) or by a student traditional singer (Bob Roberts, Bob Copper, Bob Lewis). Songs adapted by a traditional singer/professional musician (Charlie Bate) (first define traditional singer! - first define professional!) Songs altered by collector/revivalist (Sabine Baring-Gould, Cecil Sharp, Bert Lloyd, Martin Carthy, Nic Jones). Ultimately, surely the interest is in where transition takes places, and why, and whether the listener is being decieved - intentionally or otherwise? Tom |
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24 Sep 08 - 09:00 AM (#2448899) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Hi all. I am a traveller. I learnt many of my songs round the yog Iron. many from old cassettes, and from ballad books. With the digital age I can actually find the correct lyrics on-line, a great bonus. So from my point of view I would do my very best to understand and reproduce the words and tune that i heard. I would not modify them , but try to be faithful to the original rendition that attracted me. there is one particular song i have not got, and would really like to find. Its about the old ways of the traveller dying out. If that rings a bell, please contact me. An amusing twist I found in a printed version of Spancil hill. the correct lyrics are; an old horse fair in county Clare' was rendered as ' a hairy ass fair ' I mean! this same version twisted the lyrics in other places as well. i encountered many such changes over the years, too many to mention. and im sure i have contributed to this, with misheard lyrics passed on!! |
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24 Sep 08 - 10:12 AM (#2448946) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Wasn't Gordon Hall notorious for adding to his songs when he heard versions of them that had other verses? Anahata It wasn't just "when he heard versions of them that had other verses", Gordon actively sought out additional verses to fill out or complete the versions of songs that he sung; for Gordon, a song could never be too long! I was one of a number of people in Sussex that Gordon used to obtain more information about and verses for his songs. When the phone went and a voice said something like, "Hello Vic, Gordon here. Now, Lord Bateman or Bakeman or Buchan or Baker or Beichan....." you knew that you were in for a) a long phone call and b) some searches through you book and record shelves to find out what he was after. And as he sang most weeks at our folk club, you could hear the 'before and after' effect of the interesting way he added the extra material, sometimes adapted by him to fit his particular style. Ther last time I spoke to him not long before his last admission to hospital, he had phoned to say, " Now, a ballad that I really like is Hind Horn, but the only tune that I can find for it, I don't like. Can you help me out?" Well, off the top of my head I couldn't. But in the week that he died I received an album with a field recording of a fantastic version of Hind Horn with a great melody sung by an old Canadian lumberman, Joe Estey. All I could do was to learn the song and sing it at Gordon's memorial concert in Horsham. |
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24 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM (#2449000) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: romany man Tradpiper, Im a romany and learned direct from me dadus, an such, you should know sometimes the same song will have a different tune, or have a verse added or took out, does that make it wrong, dont think so, folk tunes is just that, a song thats sung by the locals, i was a appleby this year an heard several songs i knowed but they didnt sound the same, on asking most said well thats the way i learned it, as it is. So surely any song of the folk type comes to life that way |
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24 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM (#2449016) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST This is all good stuff, and thanks for many interesting contributions. Liam's Brother's characterisation of differing attitudes amongst traditional singers towards improving their material rings very true. I suspect that some of the mishearings / Mondegreens that tradpiper refers to were perpetuated precisely because singers in L.B.'s category (1) consciously decided to leave their texts well alone even when certain phrases were apparently nonsensical. On the other hand, I can think of instances in ballad tradition where a major shift - e.g. a change in a the gender of a significant character - has occurred at some point during transmission, with a marked effect on the emotional or moral weight of the ballad. It's hard to imagine that a change like that would happen by accident. But, as I said before, inference is one thing, direct evidence is another. Given that at least some singers always seem to have altered consciously their material, it isn't really surprising that the likes of Gordon Hall or Fred Jordan, in contact with the folk revival and also with access to a wider range of printed sources than their forebears, should have wished to improve the texts they sang. It's even more interesting that a singer like Bell Duncan might have been doing the same, even before Carpenter arrived on her doorstep. I seem to remember Steve Jordan, in his excellent workshop on Richard Hall (one of George Gardiner's sources) mentioning that Hall was learning material from 'Songs of the West' in the 1900s. And, when Mike Yates observed Fred Jordan's collection of songbooks, was this before or after Fred had become a guest artist at revival venues? romany man: all you say is true, and it doesn't "make it wrong". I'm just curious to know how all those versions came about. Keep 'em coming! |
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24 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM (#2449020) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Shimrod What an interesting thread this is - for a variety of different reasons. To 'tradpiper' and 'romany man', I'm getting an impression that love of, and interest in, the the old music and songs is still alive among your people and may even be getting a new lease of life through the new digital technology. Is that anywhere near the truth? |
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24 Sep 08 - 12:29 PM (#2449021) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Folks do what folks do. Mishear, fill the gaps, customise for the moment and some are sticklers for accuracy. Folk music is a minefield for pedants. And a rich source of pedant antics. And anyway didn't Stan Hugill say as much: shanties evolved to amuse and assist. I can remember going round the Worcester Porcelain works and the painters (all women) sang for amusement and you could hear them re-doing verses and laughing. Crude or pointed at bosses I couldn't tell. But it entertained them, and the concept alone entertained me for all of the minute, until we were shooed on. I presume the songs were popular fair known to the assemblage but the process was edifying. |
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24 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM (#2449028) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Whilst we are mentioning the magnificent Gordon Hall, we ought to mention the two CD albums of his that are available:- GORDON HALL "Good Things Enough" (2000) on Country Branch - Contact Jim WARD and GORDON & MABS HALL "As I Went Down To Horsham" (2008) on Veteran - Contact John HOWSON |
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24 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM (#2449051) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith I've just remembered that something that I wrote in 1999 on the Musical Traditions website is relevant to this thread. It concerns another of my great heroes, the Scots traveller singer, Davy Stewart. I was reviewing the re-release of Davy's Topic vinyl album on CD on the Greentrax label and I said:- For those of us who wanted to believe passionately in an oral tradition, here was the best living example. Davie was fully of the tradition and yet he created within it and that's how the new versions developed. I remember once at Kinross hearing him delivering another of his truly passionate pieces, Bogie's Bonny Belle. His knowledgeable audience was hearing that Belle and her tinker partner were selling "pots and pans and paraffin lamps" so they knew they were on the last verse, but Davie was enjoying himself too much to stop, so we had three more verses speculating about what else they might have been selling; pegs, paper flowers, and expanding on the tinker's ware to augment the tilly pans and ladles. The electric atmosphere, the look on those listening faces is something that I'll never forget. I feel sure that there's another example on this album. He is singing The Jolly Beggar in Hamish's kitchen. Now, I'll wager that some folklorist has told Davie that there is speculation that the central character in this ballad is King James IV, 'the Gaberlunzie King'. Is that the case? Let's put that in. (sound clip) I may be wrong, but I don't think any version actually puts the king's name in. Just to top this off, this version ends with a final verse to suggest that it might be a good point to break off the recording session and have a cup of tea! It wasn't just that extra verses appeared within songs, the position of the words against the melody changed with every performance and if extra words or phrases appear, then the melody will just have to do what it can to fit in. His version of The Overgate was similar in structure to Belle Stewart's, but Belle's usually came out about the same. With Davie you knew it was going to be different each time. (sound clip) If you would read the full review and listen to the sound clips you will to click on http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/d_stewar.htm |
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24 Sep 08 - 02:24 PM (#2449099) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,giles earle Duncan & Linda Williamson's collection of folk tales 'A Thorn in the King's Foot' gives Duncan's versions of Thomas the Rhymer and Tam Lin, with notes in the Appendix of how he reached his narrative. Fascinating stuff. |
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24 Sep 08 - 02:55 PM (#2449119) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger I am not sure if I can shed any light on the debate, but it's an interesting one. Over the years, I have recorded a great number of traditional singers both in the UK and the US, so can speak with some insider knowledge. When I record a singer, a standard question is always 'Where did you learn that song?'. Can I also say that it's a great pleasure to know that members of the travelling community are contributing to this debate, knowing the strong cultural and oral heritage they possess. Traditional or source singers are human beings like us. They are not born with a repertoire in their heads. They hear songs, they like songs, they learn and sing songs. They forget bits and embellish bits. They get their songs from oral tradition, books, recordings, letters, and now by Internet, email, fax and answerphone. But hey, who doesn't? However, I suspect the kernel of Brian's original posting is to ask, when we hear a performance from a singer, whether the words have been passed on through 'pure' oral tradition or consciously learnt from some other later source. My experience has been that many singers that we call traditional have learnt some of their repertoire from sources other that oral tradition. Mention has been made of Gordon Hall, whom I recorded on one occasion, and it is well known that he supplemented his versions from his collection of broadsides. His version of Lord Becket (17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) got longer every time you heard it. He also sang me great versions of Henry Martin and the Jolly Butchers, exactly as collected from Henry Burstow 90 years previously, so presumably learnt by him from a printed source. The lovely Devon singer Charlie Hill often supplemented his fragmentary versions by getting the words from friends and other sources. For example, he knew a few verses of 'The Capable Wife' so I gave him a complete set and next time I saw him he was singing it all the way through. Isn't that what we all do? When I learnt the music hall song from 'Every Morning' from Charlie, I deliberately changed a line to make it say 'Gloucester market', to turn it into an old Gloucestershire song! The traditional singer Archer Goode in Gloucestershire used books to supplement many of his songs. Ray Driscoll learnt some songs from me but when he sang them they came out differently. The Gloucestershire Poacher got somehow relocated to Ireland! The only issue is when a singer pretends or leads one to believe that what they are singing is straight from oral tradition. I'm not hinting at direct deception, but an unspoken assumption on the part of the performer. I don't think there have been many singers that do this with malice aforethought, but I have known singers to be very coy about their sources, to preserve the aura. It sounds better to say 'I have known this songs for years and can't remember where I got it' than to say 'I learnt this from a Martin Carthy CD.' Anyway, enough rambling on. This is a good thread and a question worth asking. Tradsinger |
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24 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM (#2449133) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Creative improvisation in performance ('Oral Formulaic Theory', anyone?) is fascinating in itself; I wonder to what extent that kind of thing overlaps with conscious 'improvement' or deliberate changes in plotline? No-one's had much to say about tunes yet.... 'GUEST' at 12.27 was me, by the way. |
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24 Sep 08 - 03:03 PM (#2449134) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham Matthew,'Didn't Carpenter encourage Bell Duncan to come up with fuller versions of ballads by showing her examples in Child?' Profuse apologies. I suppose the name 'Carpenter' here is a clue to how wrong I was. I was so taken up with the idea that Greig had done the same with Bell Robertson that my eyes simply saw Carpenter as Greig. I should know the Bell Duncan article off by heart, the book is practically next to my computer. Another feature of the influence collectors can have on source singers is the source singer's great desire to please collectors. Here we must remember that some of these singers had kept these songs in their hearts for decades without anyone, even their own families, taking an interest. All of a sudden someone starts to take an interest and wants to record them for posterity. Several collectors (Baring Gould for one) claim that, when asked for a specific song, singers have actually made up a song on the spot just to oblige, or have gone away and actively sought out a version for when the collector comes back. I have met with this myself. Also I've come across an example similar to the Davy stewart one given above. It concerns Child 295B, which in my belief is a concoction sent to Child by Baring Gould. Baring Gould spliced together 2 broadside ballads, one of them quite common, Sally and her True Love Billy/ The Sailor from Dover. Naturally when the early American collectors came across versions of this (which were numerous)they put it under the Child title 'The Brown Girl'. Ironically one of the later collected Kentucky versions actually mentions a 'Brown Girl'. One can easily imagine the scenario. Early collector approaches singer and records quite ordinary version of Sally and Billy and is enthusiastically told by the collector that this is a version of an important Child ballad called 'The Brown Girl'. Twenty years later another collector comes along to record same singer or one of the family only to find the same song with a 'Brown Girl' mentioned in it! |
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24 Sep 08 - 03:21 PM (#2449149) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Greg B The "Leaving of Liverpool" is a good example. Lots of folks about New York will glare at you if you sing "my darling when I think on thee (rhymes with "united we will be") in the chorus. They'll go to great lengths to tell you that "That's not the way Bill Doerflinger collected it from Dick Maitland at Sailor's Snug Harbor in Staten Island..." Then they'll shore that all up with the reasoning that "nobody said thee by the time Maitland heard it from an old Liverpool tar." These latter are clearly those who didn't have grandparents from the West Midlands of England...or haven't been to Amish country in the US. And--- anyone who read the King James Bible in that era, saw plenty of "thee's". C.F.: the common colloquialism that "All fishermen are liars, except me and thee, and sometimes I doubt thee." Another (IMHO rather silly) argument is that "rhyming wasn't so important back then." Well, then how come the rest of the song rhymes. A great deal of work to justify singing a line that sounds like crap, in the chorus yet and as the last word of same, yet. The most likely scenario is that Maitland or his "source" (does a source have a source?) either mis-sang it or mis-heard it. Which to me is a good example of "trad singer alteration," since the likelihood of the song surviving much longer in the "old tradition" with that busted last line is about the same as it having done so in the "new tradition." Those who put the obvious rhyme back have probably restored the song to the original, not altered it. On the other hand, Maitland and/or his "source" were quite likely the source of what is, if we use common sense, a "breakage." |
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24 Sep 08 - 03:49 PM (#2449173) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Tradsinger wrote:- His version of Lord Becket (17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) got longer every time you heard it. Two Things:- 1](17 and a half minutes, 3 fags and a double whisky) In my experience, it was nearly always a treble gin made up to a pint with tonic water. 2] He also sang me great versions of Henry Martin and the Jolly Butchers, exactly as collected from Henry Burstow 90 years previously, so presumably learnt by him from a printed source. I never heard Gordon talk about this, but after he died I was interviewing Bob Lewis (partly for album notes, partly for a Musical Traditions interview which is on-line at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/b_lewis.htm and Bob showed me a large book of photocopies of songs written out in Henry Burstow's handwriting which had been passed on to Bob after Gordon died. I don't think that Bob knew where Gordon got these photocopies from, but I was able to check the handwriting against a letter from Henry Burstow to Lucy Broadwood (which is in Shirley Collins' possession) to confirm that it was Henry's writing. I think I remember reading somewhere (probably in Vic Gammon's unpublished thesis) that Lucy Broadwood got Henry Burstow to write songs out for her, so this may be the original source. There's a photo I took of Bob holding this book along with the article on the MT site. There is also a long interview with Gordon Hall dating from 1991 on the Musical Traditions website at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/g_hall.htm |
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24 Sep 08 - 04:04 PM (#2449182) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman Gordon Hall, magnificent? I heard him sing Lord Randall at the national,sorry, I beg to differ. not my kind of singer at all,I would rather listen to A L Lloyd singig the Two Magicians,AL lloyd was a singer who could bring a story to life,even if he was a revival singer. |
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24 Sep 08 - 04:36 PM (#2449207) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Gordon had a unique style. Like marmite, you either loved it or hated it, but there is no doubt that he had a strong resonant voice, great breath control and very good pitch over a long song. His singing worked for me, but obviously not for the Captain. But it would be boring if we all liked the same thing. Anyway, I fear we are going off topic. Tradsinger |
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24 Sep 08 - 04:55 PM (#2449222) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once, . In the morning yer man had moved on. Its clearly a traditional travellers song. So were I to find the words written down, would I remember the melody he sung it to. ? To some extent. I read music so I would hope to have the dots. So if I learnt it from the printed page, combined with my memory how would it go were I to meet him again and we sung it together? Firstly I would merge with his singing. I would copy' phrasing, inflexion, and tone of voice, to blend in. So the version I sung before hand, would be the template, the ground upon which I would base my rendition. but its quite likely that there would be a number of different lyrics due to the different sources. I would of course ask him to tell me the words to write down. Of course a recording would be great, but that kind of thing was unavailable when I learnt many of my songs. it would be the words writ out and the melody remembered. So come on !, anyone know the song? Its been bugging me the last , maybe 14yrs! Some songs have missing verses, for some reason a verse is lost. Finding a missing verse is like gold dust to me, let alone a missing song.! |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM (#2449247) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: curmudgeon tradpiper - the only song that comes to mind from what you seek is "Freeborn Man" by Ewan MacColl - not trad, but now fifty years old. "Winds of change are blowing,,, old ways are going, Your travelling days will soon be over." |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:17 PM (#2449248) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,mg It's not the Ewen Macoll one is it? The buying and selling the old fortune telling Fairwell to the tents and the old caravans The tinker the gypsy the travelling man .. You can tell I don't know it. Lots of people know it. There's a bylaw to say you must go on your way And another that says.... |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM (#2449251) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Vic Smith Tradpiper wrote:- The song I am after, 'the old ways of the traveller are dyin'. I heard it once Could the song that you are after be the one that starts:- The old ways are changing you cannot deny The day of the traveler's over There's nowhere to gang and there's nowhere to bide So farewell to the life of the rover. in which case it is Ewan MacColl's Thirty Foot Trailer which is available on this site at http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2359 |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM (#2449252) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger It's "The Thirty Foot Trailer" by Ewan Macoll to me. You can find the words easily on the Internet plus various versions on Youtube. Let us know if this is the song you are looking for. Tradsinger |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:28 PM (#2449255) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger How did 'to me' get in my last posting? Sloppy typing. Sorry. |
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24 Sep 08 - 05:47 PM (#2449268) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Desert Dancer tradpiper, I've copied your question and the above replies to a separate thread, Lyr Req: ways of the traveller dying out, so more people will see it. (The above replies are what came to mind for me, too.) ~ Becky in Tucson |
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24 Sep 08 - 06:23 PM (#2449289) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper I reckon thats got to be it folks. My eternal thanks to you for helping me out there.... Ahh the wonders of the internet! Right, now you've done your good turn for the day, let us return to the question in hand. My apologies for highjacking the discussion for a moment... it was a spontaneous thing. But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition? for example if its 50yrs old, then it could easily be in its third generation of being passed down. I heard it sung round the fire by a travelling man with the wagons and mares around us. Ive heard the name, Ewan Macoll, and have just read up on his works. Impressive. I will buy this album, sure if only to get this song. thanks again.... |
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24 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM (#2449298) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Art Thieme Old cowboy Del Bray (possibly Dave Bray) surely did sing: Near Medicine Bow where I was born, There was a fair maid dwellin', Made all the boys ride saddle sore, And her name was Barbara Allen... Did he put it together. I have no idea. We were in a bar in Cheyenne, Wyoming -- the summer of 1962. He saw my guitar case and we went across the street to a rather rundown hotel room we had taken for the night. (This was across from the train station as I remember it.) I was 20 years old, underage, but we bought a 6-pack and shared it back in the room. Then we swapped some songs. I asked Del if he knew any cowboy songs. He took my guitar and sang what I called "Cowboy's Barbara Allen." He sang it one time and I wrote down what I had heard. Quite some time later, I re-discovered that paper in my case---and I fleshed it out fom versions I knew before. Where this western version differed from the usual renditions, I had written these glaring differences down, but not the surrounding words. The song wound up being at least 75% Del Bray, but I admit it had to be finished by me. The song is in the DT. Recently, Joel Mabus, an old friend, recorded the song. Quite a few words were different from the way I generally did it. The verses about "Do you remember in yonder town... You gave a toast to all the girls, but slighted Barbara Allen." Those verses were NOT in Del Bray's singing of it---so they are not in my version. ...and the "thorny briar" and the "rose" mingling on top of the grave's "marker rocks" --- This was because, on the plains of the American west, rocks were often piled on the graves to keep wolves from digging up the dead. I'll be back later with some other songs. Art Thieme |
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25 Sep 08 - 05:25 AM (#2449528) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters "Made all the boys ride saddle sore, And her name was Barbara Allen..." I recently came across a North American version of 'Lord Randal' in which the bequest to Randal's sister was not the usual "horse and saddle", but "mules and wagons". Another example of deliberate adaptation of an old song for a new environment, making it more familiar and 'homely'. |
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25 Sep 08 - 06:00 AM (#2449539) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper For me, the tradition is a living entity. The song, 30ft trailer,[ AKA the Aold ways are dying, is it not? ]Was written by one of our own. A man who understood the ways of our people. Whether it was written 50yrs ago or 500 it is a part of the stream. and it is written and sung in A traditional style.IMO I personally dont write extra verses to a song, that perhaps is a bit too short, I just repeat a verse. But perhaps in future I might try it out.For me,the beauties of singing traditional ballads, which are all I know, Is that;1 they are great songs, 2 they are often songs that sing of thing we can relate to. 3 that my friends and fellow travellers also know many of these songs To sing them together when we meet up and pull in to a fresh site is a great feeling. To write new words kind of defeats part of that, until/unless they are generally adopted. There are new folk songs that are making the rounds, written these past years. Adopted by travellers and folk musicians alike, they sing of the theft of the land. Freedom and oppression, age old motifs that defy time and place. Long may they do so. I am not an academic, but I have great respect for those that are. Together we can preserve and refresh the traditional music that we know and love. |
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25 Sep 08 - 06:23 AM (#2449546) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST tradpiper wrote: "But when you say traditional, how do you define tradition?" We may not want to go there - AGAIN!! But it is relevant to this discussion. Try this for size: Traditional can be defined by expectation - that is the audience expectation. "It is traditional that so&so happens." "So & so is traditionally sung here." etc." NB: this has nothing to do with "Folk" - within the context, Heartbreak Hotel & Yesterday can be traditional. And being traditional doen not make it "Folk". The problem is related to the fact that you have great difficulty defining "folk" without incorporating the context of performance - but now we're into thread drift! Tom |
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25 Sep 08 - 06:51 AM (#2449560) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: romany man Tradpiper Ill ask me uncle levi, he knows loads, ifn he dont know it ill just askaround, but it does seem to have the start of thirty foot trailer, bout time some of the ol roma somgs come back, but not many singin an playin now, especially the chavs dont wanna know aint cool is it, think of all the old stuff an they laugh at yous, oh well can only try, cushti bok cuz |
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25 Sep 08 - 07:23 AM (#2449580) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Fred Jordon once said (in concert, Nags FC, Malvern, 1984/5) that he sang the songs he knew and learnt as a boy/adolescent. But when he started going out as a professional he realised that he needed a bigger repertoire and give the public what they expected. So he delved into books. But he sang a fair number from his oral tradition and all were "traditional". <PEDANT = ON> (aural tradition would be equaly accurate). </PEDANT> |
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25 Sep 08 - 08:05 AM (#2449607) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: TheSnail Thirty Foot Trailer |
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25 Sep 08 - 12:49 PM (#2449960) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper his is the setting I have of Sullivan John, note how it differs from here
Sullivan's John |
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26 Sep 08 - 03:50 AM (#2450607) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll Sorry about the late intervention - holiday (somebody has to do it!) I can't think of a traditional singer we have met who didn't alter songs, often extensively; sometimes unconsciously, but mostly on purpose. In Ireland, many of the songs were passed on via the ballad sheets which were sold at the fairs and markets well into the fifties. All of the singers we recorded learned songs from them and all of them we interviewed told us they used them as guides rather than set texts. Clare singer Tom Lenihan spoke at length about re-making songs he learned from 'the ballads' because he wasn't happy with the printed versions - he also did this with songs he got from other singers - listen to his 'Constant Farmer's Son' on 'Around The Hills of Clare' or 'Farmer Michael Hayes from 'Mount Callan Garland'. Walter Pardon did it to a great extent - not, as has been suggested, to please potential audiences, but because he had strong opinions on how the poetry of the songs should sound. When he returned home after the war he began to write down his family's songs, particularly those of his Uncle, Billy Gee, who had died while Walter was in the army. His repertoire books make fascinating reading. He told us that quite often he could only remember a couple of verses to a song, but if he thought it good enough he re-constructed it, for his own satisfaction. One of his best songs (IMO) was 'The Dark Arches', of which he sang the half verse and a chorus he could remember to us shortly after we first met him. He asked us could we find him a full text of it, and eventually Mike Yates came up with one from an old songbook. He then set about re-making the song by combining the fragment he remembered with the printed text - for me, comparing the two proved what a great artist Walter was. Scots Traveller Duncan Williamson told us how he re-made many of the ballads in his repertoire from bits he gleaned from other Travellers. I have always suspected that Jeannie Robertson did the same - compare her earlier recordings with the later ones. One of my favourite bawdy songs is Arthur Woods' 'The Tailor's Britches' which, I have been told, he claimed to have composed, but which obviously came from an earlier text. The older singers sang because they enjoyed the songs - not because they were in pursuit of 'authenticity' whatever that was. Jim Carroll |
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26 Sep 08 - 04:06 AM (#2450612) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll PS, There has been great debate as to whether Harry Cox learned songs from his broadside collection. It would be interesting to find out to what extent this was the case, and what effect it had on his repertoire. I know Bob Thomson did extensive work with Harry on the subject and I think Paul Marsh did some great work while putting together the magnificent CD. It would be interesting to find out if the result of their research was available. Without wishing to open old wounds (and straying too far off-thread), I have always thought that Harry was a prime example of how the mishandling of traditional performers and their material by outsiders like ourselves can adversely effect our knowledge and appreciation of the tradition. Jim Carroll |
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26 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM (#2450617) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman The older singers sang because they enjoyed the songs - not because they were in pursuit of 'authenticity' whatever that was.[quoteJimCarroll]. That is my criteria too,which is why it doesnt bother me if A L Lloyd[revival singer],or Bob Roberts altered songs. |
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26 Sep 08 - 05:11 AM (#2450645) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: The Sandman Sullivans John,is a contemporary song.,as I understand ,written by PeckerDunne. I think BrianPeters[original poster]is talking about traditional singers altering traditional songs. traditional singers altering contemporary songs,is another ball game completely and deserves a seperate thread. |
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26 Sep 08 - 06:01 AM (#2450657) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper True Captain. However I learnt it from a traveller round the camp fire. It fits within the genre perfectly. What is the consensus here as to what comprises 'traditional'? a serious question from a newbie here. My point is that, as a traveller, learning songs from other travellers, around the home fire, with horses and kids around, the original provenance of a song is a complete irrelevance. It is a part of the tradition. It IS a traditional travellers song. Now as collectors and revivalists one can pontificate as to what is or is not 'traditional'. But the actual communities from whence the material is drawn has its own standard and criterion. Those communities have firmly adopted songs like Sullivan John, 30ft trailer. WE don't care who wrote them, they speak to us, through us, and for us. That's enough. Same as any man on the road. You are taken at face value. Its not relevant where you come from, just where you are going and the route you take. Fair enough if Brian had a different slant on what comprises traditional. But Different communities have different traditions. Are you talking about Just English Folk? or Irish/ Scottish/as well? Where do Travellers songs fit in? IMO travellers songs cross theses boundaries, just as we do in real life. Im just suggesting that the definition of 'traditional' differs depending upon the context within which it is discussed. My Apologies if I am raising old issues that you feel have been done to death previously and feel free to ignore me. I am simply offering a different perspective. |
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26 Sep 08 - 06:56 AM (#2450682) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters Thank you, Jim, for the usual interesting contributions. For what it's worth (as someone who *is* interested in the provenance of songs), I think tradpiper is making a very good point about the tradition in his (or her?) traveller community, although this is the kind of topic that's been discussed here before at length and has a tendency to end in tears or thrown teddies (go and search under 'What is folk?', 'What is traditional?' etc. etc.). As to "where do travellers' songs fit in?", I'd say this field is now (belatedly?) recognised as one of the most vital areas in traditional song. I hope we're going to hear more from tradpiper in this forum. Tradsinger also made a good point further up the thread: "Traditional or source singers are human beings like us. They are not born with a repertoire in their heads. They hear songs, they like songs, they learn and sing songs. They forget bits and embellish bits. They get their songs from oral tradition, books, recordings, letters, and now by Internet, email, fax and answerphone. But hey, who doesn't?" |
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26 Sep 08 - 07:18 AM (#2450693) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Just as a matter of interest, the sleeve notes to 'The World of Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger', dating back to 1970 on the Argo label, refer to the song 'Freeborn Man' (sic - not titled 'The Travelling People' at that time!) as having been 'assimilated into the tradition'... We've had arguments about what constitutes 'traditional' so often in the past, but the fact remains that it is still a matter of opinion...!! Maybe a new term should be coined... 'contemporary traditional'?! Yes, I'm being silly, I know! |
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26 Sep 08 - 07:27 AM (#2450697) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Shimrod I have always thought that most traditional singers were, and are, enthusiasts - just like us 'non-traditional', revivalist singers. They went wherever their enthusiasm and artistic sensibility took them. |
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26 Sep 08 - 07:59 AM (#2450720) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Quite so. |
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26 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM (#2450737) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: MaineDog I've always been suspicious of people who bring their digital recording devices to sessions and sing-alongs, and then express worry about whether tunes are being "played right". If "musical correctness" is important to you, maybe you should go classical music and leave the folk process alone. MD |
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26 Sep 08 - 08:43 AM (#2450756) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Bernard Yes - there is no 'right' or 'wrong', but sometimes 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' may be... erm... appropriate ...! A good example is the Coppers' use of their own made up word 'relope'! |
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26 Sep 08 - 09:05 AM (#2450771) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Thanks Brian for your gracious welcome, and for directing me to a search of the interesting, informative and amusing discussions in the archives... I see what you mean.LOL So, seeing as how what is traditional depends on the context of the discussion or community , might it be an idea for, yourself in this case, the instigator of the discussion, to define 'tradition, or traditional singers'? that way you are setting the boundaries, so to speak. |
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26 Sep 08 - 10:01 AM (#2450814) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: romany man We can go into all the rights and wrongs of trad, but all statements are that of the individual, songs that tradpiper, sings or learns, from the same type of source as me , cpould well be totally different either in content or musical accompaniment(sorry cant spell it) dependant on who is passing the song on and from what area, sadly at our place it seems im now the last one interested in the old ways an the old songs, its a sad thing to say but none of us is getting younger, the younger generation are rarely interested in the songs or the music or listening to stories that have been past down, as far as i am concerned i dont care who wrote it just how it sounds and the words the rights and wrongs can go whistle, if you are beating yourself up about timing speed right words or its only folk if you sing through your nose, well what can i say, romany traveller songs change from person to person, have bits added or taken out, the tunes change, so if you in kent the broomdasher song sounds one way but when i heard it at stow it was totally different, whos right kent or stow, my point is does it matter. |
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26 Sep 08 - 10:09 AM (#2450822) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters tradpiper: I instigated this discussion because of a previous thread ('Bertsongs') in which we discussed deliberate alterations to traditional material by A. L. Lloyd, who was one of the chief instigators (along with Ewan MacColl) of the 1960s folk revival, and who passed his (improved) material along to many prominent artists of the day - to the extent that his versions often became definitive. In the course of that discussion, various contributors asked: "What's so wrong with that, singers have always done it." While I agreed intuitively that singers probably had 'always done it', I was interested to learn what evidence there might be. I really don't want to get into another argument here about what constitutes "traditional", but in my original question I was thinking about singers who learned songs through their family or community, as opposed to learning them in the context of the folk revival. In the revival we've always taken a degree of meddling as the norm (although the extent of Bert Lloyd's interventions are only now becoming apparent), but in my early days of involvement with traditional song I was given the impression that all those wonderful song variants you find in the published collections and field recordings somehow occurred by accident - by mishearing or mis-remembering on the part of "naive" or "uneducated" singers. I never really bought that, but it's taken me until now to try and find out what actually happened. It's been very interesting to hear what people like Jim Carroll and Tradsinger, themselves song collectors, have to say on the matter, likewise the contributions from someone like yourself who has learned songs in your community. I hope that answers your question adequately. |
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26 Sep 08 - 10:17 AM (#2450829) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: dick greenhaus When a singer changes a song, the new version represents the singer's tradition, which may be considerably different from the tradition of the source. Give a listen, say, to Pete Seeger's versions of many gospel and Southern Appalachian tunes; the've become more regularized and rendered much more suitable for performance and large group singing. |
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26 Sep 08 - 12:46 PM (#2450958) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,voxtrad What's a 'traditional singer'? This discussion is happening in a 'folk' bubble. 'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??) They are both dead right about the singing of songs though. Question is, if there had been no 'folk revival' would this debate take place? Essentially every family sang (sings) and swopped songs, Christmas was a special time for this. I learned songs from my grandparents and other relatives at many family gatherings – trouble is, they aren't 'folk' songs of the 'approved' type. They were songs from shows, opera and music-hall. So, when you've edited my life and discarded those of my family's songs that aren't about shepherds, knights and such, it must mean I'm not traditional? Alter songs? You betcha! Even write them if it suits! A good song will stand up and a bad song will die and that alone, in my opinion, is the 'tradition'. |
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26 Sep 08 - 01:46 PM (#2451005) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Art Thieme Sorry. I'm back. I figured you wanted American morphings of songs too. But, no. Art Thieme |
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26 Sep 08 - 03:13 PM (#2451081) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper There may be an 'us and them' thing, but its from both sides if there is.None the less, we are all people. We come from all walks of life and here we can communicate freely. 'Your people,' that's OK.Its only natural. All people have 'us and them.' It's human nature. No point in denying reality. We simply need to work with what's given rather than base our view on illusions. We have ' my family'[group] and 'your family'[group] we are all part of a larger human family.... Of course who is considered to be a part of the family depends on many, many things. I too have no wish to cover old ground. Brian has clearly stated the motivation behind his thread, and to an extent how we should view what is 'traditional' in the context of this discussion. That said, I learnt my songs within my community, from friends and family., but not blood relatives.[ None of my birth family are musicians or singers.] To be honest I had never even heard of a folk revival, apart from a few vague mentions on the internet in the last few years. Perhaps I am part of it? but if so then Capn's point is very valid.That there is no dividing line between the revival and the tradition. Its just an artificial label. we are all just singers. As far as my own views go I am pretty clear as to how I define traditional music. It has mostly too do with the melody and feeling. not the lyrics. for whatever language its sung in, it is the musical rather than lyrical aspects that I would mainly use as my basis for definition. I have never used the term folk music. Thats not to say that as a singer I have no interest in the words, to the contrary, I love a good song, the twist and turns, the stories, the tricks and all. I would also use the style of presentation as criteria, a trad song can be sung in a very untraditional way and vice versa. To me its all fluid, yet Its also clearly defined. It is, or it isn't. Just as with friends, there is a saying' "Your friends will know you better in the first minute you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a thousand years'' |
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26 Sep 08 - 03:36 PM (#2451091) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Stringsinger Many song collectors in their books use collated texts. Lomax did this. |
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26 Sep 08 - 03:46 PM (#2451093) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Shimrod "'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??)" I suspect, 'voxtrad' that you're one of those people (whoops - I've used the 'p' word again!) who is hypersensitive to 'heresy' in others. The Travellers/Gypsies/Romanies (whichever is the politically correct term)are a distinct group within society and, hence, are 'a people' - and, indisputability, just 'people' (without the indefinite article) as well. As it happens I have no quarrel with them, believe absolutely that they have a right to exist and to fulfil their own destiny and deplore the prejudice all too often displayed against them. 'tradpiper' and 'romany man' have made no secret of the fact that they are members of the travelling community and I welcome their contributions to this debate. I happen to be very interested in hearing what they have to say. Now I'll shut up, let them and others get on with it, and look forward to the day when we can all embrace and celebrate difference without having to explain and/or justify ourselves. |
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26 Sep 08 - 05:04 PM (#2451159) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham There has been a lot of wise words already expressed on this thread and I empathise with all of them. BUT as a singer, collector, writer, editor, researcher I have a split personality. When I am wearing my singer's hat I agree with every opinion expressed here. Like everyone else I stamp my own personality on the songs I sing, in many ways. However when I'm wearing my researcher's hat I need to know if a song has or has not been deliberately fabricated/rewritten/collated by someone like Bert Lloyd or Ewan MacColl or Thomas Percy or Walter Scott or Robert Jamieson or Peter Buchan or Sabine Baring Gould, or even Jeannie Robertson or Duncan Williamson. There are other value judgments that are valid other than whether it is a good song or not. Some people might not like this fact and they may not understand it, but they are entitled to their opinions. |
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26 Sep 08 - 05:52 PM (#2451208) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Tradsinger Steve, I absolutely agree with you. From the point of view of a person hearing and enjoying a song, it matters little where it came form but when as a researcher you are trying to understand the oral/folk tradition, it is important to know exactly how the singer came by the song and what changes, consciously or unconsciously he or she has made to the song. So it's an academic thing. Nothing wrong with that so long as it doesn't lapse into pedantry or spoil the enjoyment of others. This leaves open the question of WHY people like and learn certain songs and this is a complex question for another thread. Tradsinger |
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26 Sep 08 - 05:56 PM (#2451210) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: tradpiper Actually there are a number of different groups and sub groups of travellers, and in many cases they don't mix hardly at all. All to often there is prejudice in different societies. Its a fact, like it or not. Its just one of those things. We can all do our bit to cross over cultural boundaries and promote peace and understanding. Steve Gardham make a very valid point in his search for historical accuracy. That being IMO, that we are all multi faceted personalities and one particular label, be it traveller, historian, researcher, communist fascist, simply can not encompass the full human being. We all have taken different routes and are on different journeys, yet today we are here[ figuratively speaking] discussing various aspects of traditional song, from our own viewpoints. My interjection perhaps does not have any relevance to Steve's interests as a researcher, I can only give my view from personal experiance, I raised the matter of a couple of songs I am interested in. In the case of Sullivan John, Which is , to me,firmly within the tradition, and the two verses which differ , vs 2. Now I would be very interested in the provenance of those 2 verses, and if one is original and one an adoption. and which is which... Perhaps it is a sub plot in this thread? Perhaps it really is inappropriate in so far as the historians/researcher's are focused on more specific times, places and people. Im fine with that. |
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27 Sep 08 - 09:49 AM (#2451538) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Jon Dudley All fascinating stuff. Words get added (and subtracted) over the passage of time. Mention of Gordon Hall, (still to my mind one of the real 'greats') absolutely validates Vic's memories; not only of Gordon's diligence in researching both source and background of a song but also sometimes of building the original text into something far larger, grander and more suited to his love of the 'extended ballad'. This occasionally utilised his own composition in a song like 'The Farmers Toast' to great comic effect, and by extensive research of sources and recordings in the case of a song like 'Babes in the Wood'. As for the use of 'relope' in the Copper's 'Sportsmen Arouse'...it's funny how you sing a song for aeons and never question the lyric...one evening a few years ago we came to wondering what on earth it could mean...was it a hunting cry like 'Tally Ho!'...good old Chambers came to the rescue and we discovered that it was a corruption of 'elope', to run away...made perfect sense! |
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27 Sep 08 - 12:36 PM (#2451649) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Jim Carroll Steve: As you suggest, there is nothing whatever 'wrong' with singers altering songs to suit themselves (and the times). The problems arise when they make academic claims on what they have created. I believe Bert Lloyd did this a lot, hence the somewhat confused legacy he left behind. On the other hand, I don't think MacColl did this to any great extent, though he was somewhat vague at times regarding his sources. I confess I used to suspect his claims to his family repertoire but after conversations I had with his mother and with some of his contemporaries in Manchester, working-class historian Eddie Frow for instance, I came to the opinion that he never sought to mislead anybody; what he did do was to reconstruct some of the songs he heard at home. This was confirmed for me by D.G. Bridson's description in his book 'Prospero and Ariel, of the 'discovering' of MacColl in Manchester in 1931. "MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester theatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queuing up for the three-and-sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did he give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester's Piccadilly." After all, if Traveller John Reilly could give us 'The Maid and The Palmer', 'Lord Baker', 'Lord Gregory' (Lord Googly) and a dozen or so other ballads, there's no reason to doubt MacColl's claims. Jim Carroll |
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27 Sep 08 - 07:07 PM (#2451825) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Steve Gardham I don't disagree with you over MacColl. As far as I know when it came to the Scots songs he never claimed any particular academic understanding or authenticity and therefore none of us have the right to claim that for him. However with the travellers songs in 'Travellers Songs from England and Scotland', as far as I can see the scholarship of Ewan and Peggy and authenticity are beyond reproach. As for his parents' songs I'm certain they sang them and he also augmented them with poet's licence. Nothing wrong with that, but what a pity he did not carry out a scholarly study/publishing of these songs as well! |
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27 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM (#2451892) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) These are Gordian knots you-all are trying to untie! I'll just tack on a tiny example of how songs change: Mom and I were singing a little thing she liked when she was being courted by her future husband, my Dad. She sang it around the house until HER Mom declared she was goin to "stop her mouth with a dishrag!" Mom laughed and then we sang together the first verse: Somebody's tall and handsome Somebody's fond and true; Somebody's hair is very dark- Somebody's eyes are too. "Hey wait a minute- that's supposed to be, 'eyes are blue'", I hollered. Mom's little smile, then, " Well 'twas- I changed it!" |
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27 Sep 08 - 09:24 PM (#2451896) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST,Peace Ain't too many songs writ in stone. |
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29 Sep 08 - 07:19 AM (#2452668) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Brian Peters >> 'Tradpiper' and 'Romany Man' would be a breath of fresh air if there wasn't the sense of them too being regarded as 'other. ('Your people'??) << I'm not sure who it was that actually used the phrase "your people", but what *I* said was "your community", which I still don't think is particularly controversial or offensive. Although my Gran and my Mum and Dad all sang songs for fun, much of my knowledge of the songs I sing for a living is from books and recordings. That makes me all the more interested to hear what tradpiper and romany man, who have a different relationship with the songs they know and love, have to say in this discussion. "A 'folk' bubble" is precisely what the Mudcat forum is, but the whole point of starting this thread was to bring in some news from outside the bubble, and that - I am happy to say - is just what's happened. I suppose it was too much to hope that this could be achieved without a bit of axe-grinding along the way. Oh, and Steve Gardham got it exactly right about the distinction between the singer and the scholar's view of the song, so let's not get all stewed up yet again about value judgements - that isn't what this thread is about. |
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29 Sep 08 - 08:04 AM (#2452701) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: Mr Red Tam Kearney (Fiddlers Green FC Toronto) told the story told to him by Ewan McColl how he heard a Canadian lumberjack singing a McColl song and swore it was taught to him by his Gran. The timespan was only a few years, but one can speculate it was emminently plausable. The story goes on that Ewan requested more "songs from Gran" and elecited "Please Release me Let me Go". Which would date the story to late 60's early 70's. McColl was looking for "Trad songs" Which demonstrates what has been said many times above. Close communities, in making their own entertainment, know little of the wider context and to a young boy/adolescent the provenance is far less important than the content. And memory being what it is ............. Surely we are skirting Mondegreen territory here. |
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29 Sep 08 - 08:58 AM (#2452755) Subject: RE: Traditional singers altering songs? From: GUEST My friend and I both do "Maid of Cabra West", but hers is slightly different. She said she got it from her brother ("a fine singer") whose version is, again, slightly different. I looked up the print version in a book either by or including Frank Harte, and we are all "wrong". Same with O'Sullivan's John. Mainly, most recorded versions alter the lyrics to avoid using the word "ass". |