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13 Oct 08 - 01:30 PM (#2464557) Subject: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Behind the smear campaigns of extreme distortion, falsehood, falsified time and place, and other bizarre devices designed to undermine the repute of candidates, is a surprisingly small number of loud-mouthed liars and fomentors. In the case of Barack Obama the hate-campaigns have been marvelous to behold. But they are highly leveraged by infectious hate-email campaigns and other tricks and get to appear mych more widespread than they are. Here are the major authors: David Bossie, who runs Citizens United, has paired with Floyd Brown for years. Bossie and Brown harassed the Clintons throughout Bill Clinton's administration, with even George H.W. Bush calling his behavior in the 1992 presidential election (which included harassing the family of a recent suicide victim) "filthy campaign tactics." After writing a 2000 book about Al Gore that went little-noticed, in 2004, Brown and Floyd Bossie, working as the group Citizens United, made a movie called Celsius 41.11 and ran television ads attacking John Kerry. In 1998, Bossie was fired from his job with the House Committee investigating Bill Clinton. When Bossie selectively released tapes, removing information that exonerated the Clintons, and improperly obtained phone records, even Newt Gingrich said he was "embarrassed for the conference at the circus that went on." Then-President George Bush: "We will do whatever we can to stop any filthy campaign tactics." [Press Conference, 7/15/92] Current President George W. Bush sent a letter to 85,697 major donors urging them not to contribute to the Bossie/Brown groups in 1992. [Washington Post, 7/15/92] George H.W. Bush's campaign, referred to Bossie, Floyd Brown, and their associates as "the lowest forms of life." [Hunting of the President] Newt Gingrich: "I'm embarrassed for myself, and I'm embarrassed for the conference at the circus that went on" under Bossie in the House investigation of Clinton-Gore campaign finances. [Washington Post, 5/7/98] Dan Burton, Bossie's Boss in the House: "He released information on Mr. Huang's telephone records without my knowledge or approval. I have told him in no uncertain terms that I do not allow my staff to release any information, including documents, without my approval, and that I do not expect this to happen again." [Roll Call, 11/25/96] Floyd Brown, the leader of the National Campaign Fund, the Legacy Committee, Citizens for a Safe and Prosperous America and the Policy Issues Institute, once bragged he was part of the "the heart and soul of the right-wing conspiracy," and has a history of surfacing every four years to make right-wing attacks against Democrats in presidential elections. Most infamously, Brown was responsible for the 1988 "Willie Horton" ad against Michael Dukakis. Brown harassed the Clintons throughout Bill Clinton's administration, with even George H.W. Bush calling his behavior in the 1992 presidential election (which included harassing the family of a recent suicide victim) "filthy campaign tactics." After writing a 2000 book about Al Gore that went little-noticed, in 2004, Brown and Floyd Bossie, working as the group Citizens United, made a movie called Celsius 41.11 and ran television ads attacking John Kerry. USA Today: "[Brown has] established himself as one of the nation's dirtiest political strategists." [USA Today, 10/26/92] George Stephanopoulos: "Floyd Brown is a slimy thug for hire." [Washington Post, 4/19/94] Mary Matalin: "I'm not a big fan of Floyd Brown...He gave us the Willie Horton ads that the Republican Party has had to eat for two election cycles now." [New York Times, 4/24/94] Salon: "If there is a racist odor to the coming general election campaign, it is likely to emanate from his vicinity." [Salon, 4/25/08] Bob Perry is one of the biggest Republican donors in the country and was the main financier of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in 2004, giving $4.5 million. The ads produced by the Swift Boat effort were so disingenuous that John McCain himself denounced them as "dishonest and dishonorable." In 2006, Perry was again the top contributor to 527 groups, giving them more than $9 million. His contributions were more than the next two biggest donors combined. Perry even funded an anti-gay ad in Montana that referred to "Brokebank Democrats" and ads featuring the home phone numbers of Democratic candidates. Craig Shirley, who runs Stop-Him-Now.com, was a McCain campaign consultant and endorser until the campaign was faced with the possible illegal arrangement. Shirley, another member of the team that produced the Willie Horton ads in 1988, harassed the Clinton administration for years, staging the press conference where Paula Jones was introduced. Shirley not only represented "Unlimited Access," a book described as "second-hand, unsubstantiated sexual rumors about and bitter attacks against President and Mrs. Clinton," but also represents Ann Coulter's books. Bruce Hawkins, the Executive Director of the National Campaign Fund, has been involved in Republican campaigns for 20 years. Hawkins was recently disbarred in Washington state for violating four rules of professional conduct, running a business that promised to reduce credit card debt (but did not), and lying about conflict of interest. The same year, Hawkins was "permanently enjoined" by the justice department "from promoting tax-fraud schemes" after setting up illegal offshore tax shelters. James Lacy is the treasurer and general counsel of the National Campaign Fund. He was the treasurer for the Legacy Committee; is the contact for the Policy Issues Institute; and is the treasurer for Citizens for a Safe and Prosperous America. Lacy is a "long-time conservative activist" and a "soldier in the conservative movement for many, many years." Lacy, who served as a lawyer for the Minutemen, once said he was "willing to do whatever it takes to preserve the Minuteman Project." Lacy also co-founded the United States Justice Foundation, an organization that got its start in "reverse-discrimination" suits. Specific facts rebutting their smear campaigns can be found here. It is only fair and equitable that those who are bombarded with hatemail have the chance to understood who it is that is sending it, and to think about the voice they are listening to. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 01:55 PM (#2464577) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Wesley S The newest smear I recieved just today questioned how Obama was able to afford Harvard. It went like this: UMMM...NOW HERE'S THE BEGINNING OF THE HARD PART FOR ME (HELP ME OUT HERE, IF YOU CAN): SOMEHOW, SUDDENLY - HE WENT TO THE BEST HIGH DOLLAR PREP SCHOOLS IN AMERICA , AND NEXT HE GOT INTO A TOP IVY LEAGUE COLLEGE , AND LATER, INTO HARVARD LAW SCHOOL - HOW? WHO SPONSORED HIM? WHO PAID FOR ALL THAT SCHOOLING? (HAVE YOU LOOKED AT TUITION EXPENSES TO ATTEND UNDERGRADUATE YALE LATELY? HOW ABOUT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL ? SOMEBODY PAID A LOT OF BUCKS FOR THIS KID'S IVY LEAGUE EDUCATION......) WHO? HE APPARENTLY DID NOT HAVE SCHOLARSHIPS THAT PAID IT ALL FROM WHAT WE READ. HE ALSO DID NOT HAVE TO BORROW FOR COLLEGE , ALSO FROM WHAT WE READ. SO??? |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM (#2464582) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Alice Yesterday I read an article about the man who started the "muslim" whisper campaign about Obama. This thread is appropriate for a link to that. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13martin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin The Man Behind The Whispers About Obama snip "An examination of legal documents and election filings, along with interviews with his acquaintances, revealed Mr. Martin, 62, to be a man with a history of scintillating if not always factual claims. He has left a trail of animosity — some of it provoked by anti-Jewish comments — among political leaders, lawyers and judges in three states over more than 30 years. He is a law school graduate, but his admission to the Illinois bar was blocked in the 1970s after a psychiatric finding of "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character." snip http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/13/us/politics/13martin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:04 PM (#2464589) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Alice note there are two pages to the article about Martin |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:18 PM (#2464603) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos SUN-TIMES EXCLUSIVE | Behind the stump speech: summer jobs, college debt July 20, 2008 BY LYNN SWEET Sun-Times Columnist As part of their stump speeches, Sen. Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, rely often on their life stories, how they came from modest means, rarely adding new details about their early years even after months of campaigning. Read on, because for the first time, the Obamas have decided to share how they paid for their Ivy League educations and the jobs they held while in school. On the campaign trail, I've heard them both often lament about how, back in the day, money was tight and their loans for their undergraduate years and Harvard Law School were never paid off until after Obama signed a $1.9 million book deal in 2004. Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks on his Iraq policy during a news conference in Fargo, N.D., Thursday, July 3, 2008. (AP) And recently, Obama came out with a spot where a narrator talks about how "he worked his way through college and Harvard Law," a claim that reminded me how much there is to know about Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, since he never talks about jobs he held as a student and didn't write about them in his memoir. So what's the record? As a high school student, Obama's first job was at a Baskin-Robbins ice cream store. He also has mentioned he worked construction. And we know about the famous summer job between his second and third years of law school at Sidley Austin in Chicago, where he met Michelle, who was already at the firm. The summer before, Obama worked at Hopkins & Sutter, a law firm in Chicago. Here's what we know for the first time, with information passed on from the Obama campaign in response to my inquiries: As a college student at Occidental in Southern California, Obama returned home to Hawaii the summer after freshman year to sell island trinkets in a gift shop. Obama also had a summertime job at a deli counter in Hawaii -- making sandwiches. Once in New York to attend Columbia, one summer Obama worked for a private company holding a contract to process health records of either police or firefighters; I'm not sure exactly what he did. During one school year at Columbia, Obama was a telemarketer in midtown Manhattan selling New York Times subscriptions over the phone, wearing a headset. He did not like the job because "he worried that some of the people he called couldn't really afford the subscription." Michelle Robinson Obama worked at what was known then as Bob Goldman's Book Bindery in 1980-1981 while a Whitney Young High School student in Chicago. Once at Princeton, she worked for all four undergraduate years at the Third World Center on campus, part of a paid work-study program where she started a child care program. During the summers of 1982, 1983 and 1985, she was employed at the Chicago-based American Medical Association as an assistant to the executive director. She was a typist and helped prepare materials for the big AMA fall meeting. But the summer of 1984 brought a new experience for Michelle: She was a camp counselor at the Fresh Air Fund (Camp ABC) in New York state, working with campers from the city. After her first year at Harvard Law, she was a summer associate at the old Chadwell & Keiser law firm in Chicago. The next year, she was a summer associate at Sidley, splitting the summer between the Chicago and Washington offices. The Obamas complain about their college debt, but they did attend expensive schools. Obama took out $42,753 in loans to pay for Harvard tuition. Michelle signed notes for $40,762 in loans for her Harvard years. Obama had a full scholarship for his freshman year at Occidental, taking out loans -- the best I could get was "tens of thousands" to pay for the rest of his undergraduate school, with some help from his grandparents. At Princeton, as mentioned, Michelle had the work-study grant, got some help from her folks and took out "tens of thousands" of loans to pay tuition. ... Student loans and summer labor. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:24 PM (#2464609) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos WaPo's FactChecking department gives Palin FOUR Pinocchios for lying about her ethics investigation. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:25 PM (#2464611) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: heric "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character." That disqualified him as a lawyer?? There must have been something else. |
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13 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM (#2464619) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Charley Noble Amos- Nice to get some answers to how the Obamas paid for their college education. Evidently it was not money from some Middle-eastern kingdom or political group as some one suggest. My mother always told me to let sleeping lions lie. Charley Noble |
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13 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM (#2464642) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee Gee, I went through college and grad school on student loans, student jobs, and money from National Guard or the VA. Paid all the loans back too. |
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13 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM (#2464653) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos SO did the Obanmas. One of the wonderful techniques (a twist only a Rumsfeld could love) is the assertion of unknowns that are actually knows. Demanding to know, for example, in shrill tones, who paid for OPbama's education when the answers are available, or why he won't show his birth certificate when a copy is freely available on line. THis kind of nuttiness spews out from the nuttier-than-thou crowd at both ends of the spectrum but the spew fromt he right seems more tinged with hatred and violent predispositions, IMHO. What concerns me more is the evil dedication of the professional falsifiers and muckrakers whose sole purpose is to distort the democratic process by injecting flows of toxic waste, informationally speaking. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM (#2464686) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk And that's only the tip of the iceberg, folks. Even more outrageous than the false slurs launched against Barack and Michelle Obama are the incredible smear campaigns that have been directed at Chongo Chimp, such as: RenataGate - The absurd suggestion that Chongo has been having an interspecies affair with his attractive human campaign manager, Renata Carson, a bright young Chicago intern. ChingaGate - The even more absurd and totally untrue garbage that is forever being spread about concerning a supposed sister of Chongo's named "Chinga", when there is in fact no such sister and never has been such a sister. Chongo has 3 sisters. None of them is named "Chinga". Despite the fact that these "Chinga" rumors have no basis, though, they continue to be repeated, and they are all emanating from one single source: the offices of Amos J******, a ruthless muckraker employed by the Obama campaign for the sole purpose of derailing any and all other campaigns besides Obama's. Mr J****** lives in California where he has become notorious for his ceaseless attacks on any and all candidates who are not Democrats or are not working for Obama. He attacked Hillary Clinton ceaselessly. He has attacked McCain and Palin ceaselessly. He has attacked Chongo Chimp ceaselessly. But the nerve of this man! In what amounts to absolutely brazen specism he first invents a fictional sister for Chongo Chimp, then concocts bizarre stories about their supposedly violent family history, and furthermore does the incredibly insulting thing of naming the fictional sister with a name that is also the dirtiest word in the entire Spanish language! This is a transparently obvious attempt to alienate Hispanics from voting for Chongo and the APP, a party which works on behalf of all Americans, with no prejudice or favoritism. One of the scurrilous techniques used by Amos (a twist that even Karl Rove would be embarrassed by) is the assertion of unknowns that are actually knowns. Demanding to know, for example, in shrill tones, what Chongo's history of family violence is when the answers are freely available (there was no such family violence), or why he won't show his firearms license when a copy of it is freely available on line. THis kind of nuttiness spews out from Amos on a daily basis, and would suggest that he is either mentally unbalanced or lost in an emotional frenzy of some kind that has rendered his ability to accurately assess reality null and void. What concerns me the most is the evil dedication of the professional falsifiers and muckrakers such as Amos, whose sole purpose is to distort the democratic process by injecting flows of toxic waste, informationally speaking. Christ. Did I just say "informationally speaking"? God help me. I'm going to have to stop reading Amos's weird diatribes altogether...his bloviatory language is beginning to permeate and infect my entire being! ;-) |
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13 Oct 08 - 04:42 PM (#2464713) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee "Ma, Ma, where's my pa?" "If Lincoln [is]s elected hundreds of thousands of fugitive slaves [will] immediately emigrate to their friends - the Republicans - (in the) North, and be placed by them side by side in competition with white men." "J. Q. Adams who can write" squared off against "Andy Jackson who can fight" in the election of 1828, one of the most bitter campaigns in American history. Jackson's followers repeated the charge that Adams was an "aristocrat" who had obtained office as a result of a "corrupt bargain." The Jackson forces also alleged that the president had used public funds to buy personal luxuries and had installed gaming tables in the White House. They even charged that Mrs. Adams had been born out of wedlock. Adams's supporters countered by digging up an old story that Jackson had begun living with his wife before she was legally divorced from her first husband (which was technically true, although neither Jackson nor his wife Rachel knew her first husband was still living). They called the general a slave trader, a gambler, and a backwoods buffoon who could not spell more than one word out of four correctly. One Philadelphia editor published a handbill picturing the coffins of 12 men allegedly murdered by Jackson in numerous duels. Washington has pretensions to a monarchy. -------] Campaign lies and dirt -- what else is new? |
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13 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM (#2464734) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Volgadon If people were less ignorant, they would realise that Husein is just as common among Christians as it is among Muslims. |
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13 Oct 08 - 05:37 PM (#2464745) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos And if people were better informed they would understand why Chongo has never come out public-ally on the subject of his disreputable sister Chinga, who is well known in the barrios of Detroit and Chicago as on e of the major players in the trans-species sex traffic business. Little Hawk, of course, can't handle this issue directly because it would be a political hot potato if it were brought up broadly, so to speak. Notice, too, that when he really wants something said well, Little Hawk takes a page from Bearded Bruce's playbook, and just copies my sentences for his own use. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM (#2464761) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk I do that as a form of satire, you dolt. ;-) I feel that in dishing out imitations of your bloviations at their most pungent and then adding a dash of humor to the mix I can most handily demonstrate what the original problem is with them. In short, sir, you suffer from acute verbal excess. |
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13 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM (#2464784) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee Boys, boys! Each of you go to your chair for a time out. |
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13 Oct 08 - 07:51 PM (#2464828) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos I would appreciate it if you would stick (in this thread) to the topic at hand, which is constrained to the marketing of false statements in the real world. Granted this is not a sandbox you play in very often, but still... A |
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13 Oct 08 - 08:43 PM (#2464859) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: harpmolly Augghhhh!! The other night I called my very own mommy for a pep talk (after a last few weeks that have gone from bad to worse to completely surreal). She made a few encouraging noises at me, and then launched into a well-intentioned henpecking session about a certain aspect of my personal appearance (which shall remain unnamed) which she felt needed improvement, which would make me feel much better if only I would fix. I listened in total dumbfounded shock, responding with robotic comments while I flailed around for something polite to say without bursting into tears. She then made the following offhanded comment: "So, I was asking a co-worker the other night if she thinks Obama is the Antichrist..." and burbled on in that vein for a moment. When I regained my composure and asked her calmly, "Mom, what possessed you to even SAY something like that?" she responded blithely, "Because I think he kind of is." She may have had a contextual explanation, but we'll never know, because I more or less went nuclear on her. Not only did I have to find out that my mother and I apparently live on different PLANETS, but she was so blithely indifferent to my emotional state (which, after all, was the entire reason I'd called her) as to not only insult me personally, but administer a huge and offensive slap in the face to my political beliefs. (Her reaction to my expressions of hurt and anger? "I don't know why you're so mean to me. I guess I never say anything right. You're always criticizing and judging me." AUGGHHH!!!) I know this is a long story and is only moderately on-topic, but I'm just sick about it...it's really hurtful to realize that a person you have always loved and looked up to can so easily buy into the lies and propaganda being circulated out there. Her political leanings aren't news to me, but the level of disrespect and callousness she showed is completely freaking me out. Sigh. Molly |
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13 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM (#2464874) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee Gee, Obama joins the ranks of Kaiser Bill, Hitler, Abraham Lincoln, and whole slew of other Antichrists. |
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13 Oct 08 - 09:09 PM (#2464883) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Molly, that's what close relatives are for. They can drive you totally nuts in ways that most other people would never even think of or get the chance to! You have my sympathy. I have dealt with somewhat similar family issues from time to time. So, Amos wants me to play nice and not bring the Chongo issues into this thread, does he? Fine. I am willing to compromise, because I think this thread is of some value and is dealing with a worthy subject. Here's the deal, Amos. Drop all the stuff about Chinga forthwith, cease your scurrilous allegations in this and other threads in that regard, and I shall not bring further comments about the Chongo campaign into this thread. |
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13 Oct 08 - 09:16 PM (#2464889) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk By the way, that is one hallmark of success in this life. If you are really successful, chances are that some idiot out there will think you're the AntiChrist. And my mother has a friend who thinks Obama might be the long-awaited Messiah. So it goes both ways. |
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13 Oct 08 - 09:24 PM (#2464895) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: harpmolly Rapaire: Gee, well, thanks. I feel better now. Not. ;) Irrational fearmongering is irrational fearmongering is irrational fearmongering. I didn't claim it was anyone's intellectual property. (Interesting list, though...I'm trying to think of anything Obama has said or done, for good *or* ill, that could possibly elevate him into such distinguished company. ;) Did he have a secret affair with Chongo?) LH: I know, I know. Mothers exist to drive their children insane. Her timing just sucked, that's all...normally I would've shrugged it off, but she more or less tossed a lit match into a fireworks factory. *grin* |
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13 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM (#2464934) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Little Hawk: What? You don't care for my imaginary playmate? I am WOUNDED!!! But no, no deal. I am simply suggesting you stay aware of the purpose of this thread. You have spent a great deal of bandwidth promoting your fantasies about Chongo in other threads which is where such delusory simians belong. A |
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13 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM (#2464939) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee Here is a list of some of the Antichrists: 1. The Pope and the Papacy 2. John Paul II (Ian Paisley said so) 3. John Whiteside Parsons 4. Barack Obama (according the Hal Lindsay) 5. The Emperors Nero, Vespasian, and Titus 6. Czar Peter the Great 7. Rasputin 8. A son of Martin Luther 9. Antiochus Epiphanes 10. Napoleon Bonaparte 11. Adolph Hitler 12. John McCain 13. King Arthur 14. Prince Charles 15. Prince Phillip 16. Prince William 17. George W. Bush 18. Hillary Rodham Clinton 19. Dajjal 20. Aleister Crowley 21. Franklin Delano Roosevelt 22. Ronald Reagan 23. Barney the Dinosaur 24. Saddam Hussein 25. Henry Kissinger 26. The Circassians 27. Somebody (male) from the Tribe of Dan |
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13 Oct 08 - 11:41 PM (#2464966) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rowan As a nonAmerican (in both the narrow and the most general senses) I have no part to play in the US electoral processes and I regard it as ill-mannered to debate or make detailed commentary on another country's policies unless it specifically and directly affects my own. But I was listening to a broadcast on ABC (Oz) Radio National where a commentator was describing the US as an increasingly polarised community, where people who move house tend (more and more) to settle in locations that they seem to identify as being dominated by their own political persuasion. Apparently, US residents can identify Democrat and Republican communities by sight (even when there are no election placards in sight), without any recourse to conversation with the residents. There is also, apparently, a trend for counties to become increasingly dominated by either Republicans or Democrats, with all the unaligned moderates being pushed out. The material in the original post seems (to my mind) to explain the process by which this has been promoted and some of the subsequent exchanges seem (again, to my mind) to exemplify the results of such polarising. I know that all communities are regarded by pundits as "polarised" to some extent but the extremes (to an outsider like me) to which it is being taken in the US at the moment bodes ill for any truly democratic society, let alone one that its supporters regard as paradigmatic. Cheers, Rowan |
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14 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM (#2465006) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Only a complete moron, supremely endowed with a supernatural capacity for stupidity, would believe ANY politician is capable of telling the truth......especially when seeking office!!....only rivaled, by a political supporter, who can discern the difference, by his, or her candidate!! Etched in stone! |
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14 Oct 08 - 02:09 AM (#2465020) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Rapaire Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM Here is a list of some of the Antichrists: Rapaire, Being as the anti-Christ is a spirit, that resides in people,(or the lack of Christ's spirit, that resides in people), your list is a great start! |
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14 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM (#2465096) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Gervase As a nonAmerican (in both the narrow and the most general senses) I have no part to play in the US electoral processes and I regard it as ill-mannered to debate or make detailed commentary on another country's policies unless it specifically and directly affects my own. Agreed - but the result will directly affect every other country in the world. And, as someone in what likes to call itself 'the Free World', I have a huge interest in the outcome of the election for what Americans like to call 'the leader of the Free World'. |
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14 Oct 08 - 09:24 AM (#2465213) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee With the housing bubble burst there aren't many people moving anywhere right now. I never noticed it before and I don't notice it now. People move for a lot of reasons -- jobs, retirement, family, and others. I think your television program was desperate for a story and thought that maybe perhaps this might possibly be one if it were true. I exempt certain retirement communities in Florida, but even in those (and they're rare enough to make the news HERE) members of all the political parties live. "Polarization," excepting the fringes on both sides, seems to be more of a media event than actuality. |
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14 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM (#2465281) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Alice It is sad that people believe there is such a thing as an anti-christ. |
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14 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM (#2465326) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: dick greenhaus to return to the original question..........Alaska? |
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14 Oct 08 - 11:51 AM (#2465364) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Alice Date: 14 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM It is sad that people believe there is such a thing as an anti-christ. ...or you! |
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14 Oct 08 - 12:45 PM (#2465426) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos IT is interesting that a thread intended to confront the hard facts about lies and the liars who promote them has generated such a cloud of tangential mishmash and random commentary. Why, it's almost as though the real subject is somehow "unconfrontable". Hmmmmm. Hypnotic suggestion, as Donuel points out, is a nasty business in mass manipulation. The Big Lier theory has been tested over and over again by demagogues from Berlin to DC, Moscow and Beijing. The fact that folks CAN be so manipulated by phrases and pictures is a sorry reflection on our legacy as thinking men and women. PT Barnum had the rights of the matter. Where do these lies come from, aside from Clerar Channel and those promoters mentioned above? A |
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14 Oct 08 - 12:57 PM (#2465434) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Wesley S I think the American public must have ADD. The story I quoted above was sent to me by a fried who prefaced the story by saying " I haven't had time to check this out - I wonder if it's true?" I was able to find info that refuted his story with a very quick google search. These lies will continue work as long as we're willing to read the lies, pass them on , and consider ourselves too busy to check them for facts. |
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14 Oct 08 - 01:04 PM (#2465443) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: SINSULL I thought Walmart was the antiChrist... |
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14 Oct 08 - 01:11 PM (#2465446) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos "The Man Behind the Whispers About Obama comments Single Page Reprints Save Share Digg Mixx Yahoo! Buzz Permalink By JIM RUTENBERG Published: October 12, 2008 The most persistent falsehood about Senator Barack Obama's background first hit in 2004 just two weeks after the Democratic convention speech that helped set him on the path to his presidential candidacy: "Obama is a Muslim who has concealed his religion." Skip to next paragraph Andy Martin is known for filing many lawsuits. Related Race Remains Campaign Issue, but Not a Clear One (October 13, 2008) Blog The Caucus The latest political news from around the nation. Join the discussion. Election Guide | More Politics News Readers' Comments Readers shared their thoughts on this article. Read All Comments (417) » That statement, contained in a press release, spun a complex tale about the ancestry of Mr. Obama, who is Christian. The press release was picked up by a conservative Web site, FreeRepublic.com, and spread steadily as others elaborated on its claims over the years in e-mail messages, Web sites and books. It continues to drive other false rumors about Mr. Obama's background. Just last Friday, a woman told Senator John McCain at a town-hall-style meeting, "I have read about him," and "he's an Arab." Mr. McCain corrected her. Until this month, the man who is widely credited with starting the cyberwhisper campaign that still dogs Mr. Obama was a secondary character in news reports, with deep explorations of his background largely confined to liberal blogs. But an appearance in a documentary-style program on the Fox News Channel watched by three million people last week thrust the man, Andy Martin, and his past into the foreground. The program allowed Mr. Martin to assert falsely and without challenge that Mr. Obama had once trained to overthrow the government. An examination of legal documents and election filings, along with interviews with his acquaintances, revealed Mr. Martin, 62, to be a man with a history of scintillating if not always factual claims. He has left a trail of animosity — some of it provoked by anti-Jewish comments — among political leaders, lawyers and judges in three states over more than 30 years. He is a law school graduate, but his admission to the Illinois bar was blocked in the 1970s after a psychiatric finding of "moderately severe character defect manifested by well-documented ideation with a paranoid flavor and a grandiose character." Though he is not a lawyer, Mr. Martin went on to become a prodigious filer of lawsuits, and he made unsuccessful attempts to win public office for both parties in three states, as well as for president at least twice, in 1988 and 2000. Based in Chicago, he now identifies himself as a writer who focuses on his anti-Obama Web site and press releases. ..." (Fro0m the NYT cited upthread). |
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14 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM (#2465489) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Amos, your "imaginary playmate" was invented as a mere postscript to mine, and you don't have the right to do that. If you invented an imaginary playmate that was its own original story, its own original concept, that would be fine, and I would have no objection. Then it would be your business. It is not your business to invent a new family member of my character's family, because my character is my business and I invented his family! Do I make myself clear? You are violating my flipping copyright with this crap about "Chinga" and I demand that you cease and desist. You could also invent some other chimp or orangutan or something that had a beef with Chongo, and that would be fine. No problem. But you cannot add members to his family. No sir. You are trespassing when you do that. |
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14 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM (#2465549) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos LOL!! Curiouser and curiouser. Does it occur to you that your boundary rules are themselves concoctions of your own overheatedimagination? I asked Chinga about it, and she told me that although there has often been debate about who the father was, they were pretty sure about the mother. So I guess we're stuck with it. Besides, she showed me an actual Chicago birth certificate. a |
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14 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM (#2465556) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Wesley S PLEASE - Surely no one is going to try to pass off Chongo as an "intellectual property"??? |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM (#2465560) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Ah, well...now we know where lies come from, don't we? ;-) Face it, man, it is only your false sense of pride that leads you into maintaining this pathetic charade you are engaging in, and as long as you maintain it you have no basis for bellyaching about people doing similarly fraudulent things to smear Barack Obama. |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM (#2465561) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: PoppaGator Rap: 27 candidiates for Antichrist, and you omitted the actual Antichrist, AND the answer to the question "where do lies come from?": Dick Cheney! |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM (#2465571) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Wesley, if you ever invent a fictional character, write numerous stories about him over a period of several years, and grow to know him well and love him, and have a clear picture in your mind of exactly who he is and what he does...you will react the same way if some dipwad comes from out of nowhere and creates a fictional sister for him with the unlikely name of "Chinga" and then insists she is real. You won't like it. |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM (#2465573) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Wesley S Well - I invented a fictional character years ago named Little Hawk that lived in Canada and was obsessed with Wynona Ryder, William Shatner and Bob Dylan. So why you're trying to encroach on my reality I can't possibly imagine. Actually you're just a pigment of my imagination. |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM (#2465580) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk My encroachment on your reality has barely begun, Wesley. You will understand the full measure of it when you answer a knock at your front door and find a chimp there who gives you a kick in the groin that lofts your family jewels up somewhere between your right and left ear canals. |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:25 PM (#2465585) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Wesley S That's going to have to be one fast damn chimp. |
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14 Oct 08 - 03:29 PM (#2465589) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk You betcha. After all, he has had to deal with a lot of life-threatening issues in the African jungle, the waterfront of New York, and the mean streets of Chicago. Chongo is pissed, man. He's had about enough of this "Chinga" nonsense. |
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14 Oct 08 - 05:53 PM (#2465689) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos If he'd taken some responsibility for her when he first started making money it might have been a very different story. But he was blinded by cheap hooch, long-legged human dames, and the power of having a snubnosed rod in his jacket pocket. So he never thought of his sister in the SOuth Side slums or his dying mother with no money to heat their little hovel of a tenement. He never thought of his brother in Africa, who wondered day and night what had become of his family after the man in the yellow hat rounded them up. He never cared, and now he is paying the price for his own moral turpitude. Chinga says it's nothing a few hundred grand wouldn't put right, though. A |
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14 Oct 08 - 05:59 PM (#2465698) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Ha! ;-D Boy, what an imagination. You do grasp rather well the general zeitgeist of the Chongo storyline, but you are off on the details. Way off. You oughta get a job with National Enquirer or better yet, start working for McCain's people instead of Obama's. You haven't got enough class to work for Obama's people. |
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14 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM (#2465823) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Art Thieme Lies get a bad rap! I've made a living telling them for many years. Tall tales are outright bold faced lies. They were an exagerational American way of injecting humor and finding that too rare commodity in disasters and hard times. Belittling the often horrendous things that nature often provides, and that our flesh is heir to. Tragedy, being basic to life, is the norm---the normal state of things. Everyone's life is tragic ultimately. It is left to comedy to be comic relief FROM that basic tragedy in life. On the American frontier, at least, during the 19th century, LIES were often utilized to play down the heavy stuff. As I did, you too can learn to stop worrying and love lies!! Art Thieme |
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15 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM (#2466561) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Art Thieme Date: 14 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM Lies get a bad rap! I've made a living telling them for many years. What party ticket are you running on??? |
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15 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM (#2466633) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Rapparee Hey, Art. Betcha I kin outlie ya. I grew up on the Big River, you know.... |
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15 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM (#2466670) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Super!! A Rapaire/Art Thieme presidential ticket!!...perhaps, you can hunt moose, on a Rezko housing project, with Fannie, and Freddie, from a helicopter, while organizing a community, while raising taxes, by cutting them????,,for a change !! Well?...that's just a taste of what we've been asked to swallow!!..and by the way, Don't inhale!! |
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15 Oct 08 - 05:44 PM (#2466703) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk No, no...Rapaire is the VP on the Chongo Chimp (APP) ticket already. |
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15 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM (#2466709) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Damnnnn! |
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15 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM (#2466711) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: dick greenhaus Art0 The problem with many of the lies told in the present campaign is that they're so transparently bad. I agree--good lying is an art form. But inept lying should somehow be suppressed. Something like bad banjo playing. |
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15 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM (#2466723) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Slag I can't believe I wasted my time reading this thread! LIES! ALL LIES! |
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15 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM (#2466726) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Slag ...and not one mention of Mommy! |
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15 Oct 08 - 08:37 PM (#2466841) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Slag Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:11 PM ...and not one mention of Mommy! Because, ..ummm...maybe it wouldn't be a lie..... |
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15 Oct 08 - 08:44 PM (#2466845) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos HEy--inhaling was the whole point!! :D A |
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15 Oct 08 - 08:55 PM (#2466849) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Amos Date: 15 Oct 08 - 08:44 PM HEy--inhaling was the whole point!! :D A I farted again... |
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15 Oct 08 - 09:02 PM (#2466852) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Jeez!...Speaking of lies, the 'debates'(?) are on..in a few..believe it or not That was the 24th pster, from the third to the last poster, before the 5th one, before my other post, which replied four up from the lady with the pimple, who was commenting on cradle to grave socialism, where our efficient government changes your diaper, then uses it to wipe you nose! Mommie-e-e-e!!!!! |
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15 Oct 08 - 11:34 PM (#2466905) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Hey, why have cradle to grave socialism when you can have cradle to grave graft, poverty, ghettos, gated communities, gang wars, and corruption, right? ;-) |
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15 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM (#2466908) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Obvioulsy, G, you are built upside down and have your vectors out by 180 degrees. A |
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16 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM (#2466948) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos In tonight's debates, a number of direct lies came out of John McCain's mouth. |
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16 Oct 08 - 04:26 AM (#2467006) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Amos Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:22 AM In tonight's debates, a number of direct lies came out of John McCain's mouth. Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%. Myself, who has not liked either candidate(an understatement) thought Obama did pretty well, when the healthcare subject was on the table, though some may disagree,..but on the overall he was like a boxer on the ropes the rest of the time. I think he may have been damaged tonight..though I'm sure you may disagree. Also. I think McCain could have done far better, had hepressed some of his points, to closing. Toward the end, I thought he just pooped out.....but I think he 'won' the debate..I think that seems to be supported by most the polls(MSNBC excluded, I didn't check theirs)...Do I think it will translate into actual votes??...Well, it shouldn't, if Obama supporters were more sure, and independants, bought into it. McCain impressed me as just being too old, and worn out, though. <<<<<<<<< I think that is a fair assessment, of the debate, as a whole. |
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16 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM (#2467015) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: John O'L Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%. That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population. What about the one-eyed one-legged bald necrophyliacs? What did they think? |
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16 Oct 08 - 05:26 AM (#2467039) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: John O'L Date: 16 Oct 08 - 04:44 AM Fox News 'text message' vote has McCain the winner of the debate, 87to 11%. That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population. What about the one-eyed one-legged bald necrophyliacs? What did they think? Ask Amos! |
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16 Oct 08 - 10:14 AM (#2467241) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Fox's effort to preempt the "winner's circle" is kinde of pathetic. The actual survey results tend to give it to Obama. In fact we should make a notre that Fox is one of th eplaces lies come from. MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30. CNN poll from the TV: Obama 58, McCain 31. CBS poll of undecideds: Who won the debate? Obama 53 McCain 22 Lies also seem to come from bitter people, I woudl suggest. SOMething about all that suppressed rage makes for an anti-turth filter. A |
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16 Oct 08 - 10:25 AM (#2467257) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos A summary of post-debate polls: The CNN focus group voted 15 to 10 in favor of Obama over McCain. A CNN poll of viewers (40% Democrats, 30% Republicans) voted Obama the winner 58% to 31%. McCain's unfavorable ratings rose during the debate. Obama was rated more likable. Independents in the CNN poll rated Obama the winner 57% to 31% MediaCurves.com reported a poll of 1402 people. Republicans thought McCain won 70% to 18% with 12% undecided. Democrats thought Obama won with 81% to McCain's 10% with 9% undecided. Independents thought Obama won 60% to 30% with 10% undecided Fox News' unscientific poll (web based) with 46,341 responders: Obama 67%, McCain 33%. (This result makes me wonder whether Obama supporters are flooding the site.)6:30 a.m. update: I could not find a poll update at the Fox web site. I'll keep looking. AOL's unscientific poll (web based) with 376,408 responders showed Obama winning the debate 48% to McCain's 46%. MSNBC's unscientific poll (web based) showed Obama winning 83.9% to McCain's 12.9%. An MSNBC focus group in Kansas City voted that Obama won the debate 20 to 7. A CBS rationally representative sample of 638 debate watchers who identified themselves as uncommitted indicated that 53% thought Obama won the debate, 22% thought McCain won the debate, and 25% judged the debate a tie. An unscientific (web based) CBS poll showed Obama winning 84.7% to McCain's 13.06% with 2.06% judging the debate a a tie. |
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16 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM (#2467319) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk I notice that media polls seem to mysteriously mirror the attitudes of whichever media are doing the poll. LOL! This is true of Fox. It's true of CNN. It seems to be true of most of them. Their polling results usually match their desires. So how the hell do they conduct these phony "polls"? Do they go around the newsroom and ask their staff? Or do they call up a pre-selected list of numbers of people who love watching their show? It's pathetic. Things would be better if we had no polls. The polls are just more propaganda to get people to run around like a herd of lemmings and vote the way some special interest group wants them to. |
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16 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM (#2467479) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Agreed, with Little Hawk. Let's not forget that ALL of these media 'news' outlets are big corporations, who have a vested interest, in limiting our choices, and completely NOT covering the other parties. Hold on to your hats.........Thanks Amos, for posting the other polls....*wink* |
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16 Oct 08 - 03:39 PM (#2467596) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Yeah, as far as they are concerned people in the other parties (outside of the big 2) don't even exist. They aren't "newsworthy". Well, that's a pretty neat way of maintaining the duopoly, isn't it? Kucinich wasn't "newsworthy" enough to pay much attention to either, and so he was blocked from participating in the later debates. Why? Because his presence and his policies would have seriously embarrassed the $ySStem-sanctioned homogenized candidates who were allowed into those debates. Anyone who they don't decide is "newsworthy" gets blacked out of the dialogue...except on the Internet. The Internet is the one chink in the propaganda $ySStem's armour. I wonder what they will do about that? At this point the Internet allows free expression, genuine free speech. TV certainly does not, because the programming is controlled and orchestrated from the top down. You might get to speak freely and honestly once or twice about some of the real issues...but that's about it. Then you won't get on the air anymore. For lies to be believed all that is necessary is: 1. Issue them from an official and authoritative "source" 2. Repeat them over and over again in the national media 3. ...and soon they are gospel, common knowledge, believed by most people 4. MOST important of all...the lies of ommission. Simply don't talk about it, and people won't know about it, will they? They can't know what they don't hear. |
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16 Oct 08 - 04:08 PM (#2467619) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: PoppaGator The various TV networks conduct polls of their viewers, which of course consitute basically self-selected populations. I watched the first of the three debates on PBS, the second on CNN, and last night on MSNBC. While the broadcast of the debate itself is identical on each network, the accompanying commentary is of course different in each case, giving each core-viewer audience pretty much what they expect. I would characterize the PBS audience as educated-elite, the MSNBC audience as left-leaning cynical, and CNN as about as mainstream as possible. When, shortly after the debate, the audience is offered the opportunity to send a text-message vote or to log on to the network's website to express an opnion, it's not hard to predict how the results may or may not be skewed. However, despite the basic distinctions between the general characteristics of each audience-group, they are all TV audiences and therefore, HUGE numbers of people representing at least a LITTLE diversity. In the first hour or so after the debate, MSNBC was reporting the results of various different polls, not only their own, and pointed out more than once that "even the FOX News poll" showed Obama as the winner. That must have been a different poll than the "Fox News text message poll" in which McCain got such overwhelming support ~ or maybe it was just an earlier count of that poll. It should be no surprise that Fox News viewers would produce the most right-wing-favorable results. The early results of a Fox poll, any Fox poll, producing results favroable to Obama ~ THAT'S the anomaly! I can't imagine how Guest from Sanity can assert, in relation to the FOX-viewer demographic, that "That'd be a pretty random cross-section of the population." I couldn't imagine any media outlet whose loyal viewers are less representative of a cross-section of the public than the rabidly neoconservative Fox. My nominees for the most inclusive and therefore least biased of the post-debate polls would be: AOL CNN the CBS poll of "undecideds only" (however they're able to identify and isolate undecided voters). |
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16 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM (#2467671) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos I abstract from your interesting remarks, PG, that one of the places lies comes from is cohorts of mutually-reinforcing, self-selecting "like thinkers", which points to the interesting human fallibility of finding comfort in numbers in order to safely borrowed canned thought from the plurality of individuals in the cluster who have done some or all of the work for one, thus saving the thinking effort. In short, one source of lies is mass belief. It raises the question as to why thought seems painful to folks, such that htey prefer low-quality answers instead of engaging in their own efforts. A |
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16 Oct 08 - 05:14 PM (#2467674) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk I assumed that GfS was being ironical or sarcastic (rolling his eyes) when he said that, PoppaGator. Perhaps I am wrong, but that's what I assumed. It is clear that the so-called polls conducted by most media outlets simply end up reflecting the views and presentation of the network itself, since those views will be typical of the majority of people who bothered to watch that network. People tune into what they agree with, not what they despise. That way they will be sure to have all their favorite ideas reinforced. |
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16 Oct 08 - 06:24 PM (#2467733) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: dick greenhaus Until all the polls flopped in 1948 (predicting a Dewey win over Truman) the classic poll disaster was when th then-famous Roger Babson, of the Literary Digest, did an extensive poll that showed Landon would bear Roosevelt. Problem was that it was done by telephone, a gadget that only the well-off possessed. |
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17 Oct 08 - 01:40 PM (#2468415) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity No, I wasn't being sarcastic....this time....I only saw a couple of polls, I knew Amos would post more(only if they were pro Obama, though)...but no,.... thank Amos |
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17 Oct 08 - 01:49 PM (#2468427) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk The general rule in political propaganda is only to talk about polls that favor one's own candidate, isn't it? ;-) (and such favorable polls can always be secured if one simply goes to the proper "source") Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. But it seems to work. That's why I say there should be no polling allowed, period. It should be illegal to publish polling results in the media, because they in themselves artificially manipulate and alter the process...which is really just what they are intended to do by those who publish them. |
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17 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM (#2468461) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Hell, I have posted all the polls I could find, my dear dweebs. I generally look for polls datra at Real Clear POlitics, because they aggregate all the polls they find. The idea that polls should not be allowed is ridiculous. The problem is all polls should include their selection process and their margins of error. This does not often happen. A |
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17 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM (#2468481) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk "The idea that polls should not be allowed is ridiculous." Is that right? Well, tough. Your entire party-based system is considerably more ridiculous. I see nothing useful whatsoever that polls contribute to an election process, I see many ways that they damage it. They are simply an attempt to sway large numbers of people into abandoning a ticket (whichever one) in a lemming-like rush to avoid voting for "a loser". This is a form of manipulation that should not be brought into an election process. Politicians would undoubtedly continue to privately conduct polls if the polls were not published in the media, because it would give them an ongoing guide as to whether they needed to change their campaigning tactics or their platform. That would be fine with me, but I see no reason why polling results should be publicly announced day by day in the media. It is an attempt to influence people and it has no legitimate justification, because it's not based on any legitimate policy or position. What the hell does MY choice of how to vote or YOUR choice of how to vote have to do with how a whole bunch of other people say they are going to vote TODAY? It doesn't. And it shouldn't. We should not cast our votes under the influence of polls, we should cast our votes purely on the basis of the candidates and the policies we believe in (if we can find any such...). Let the politicians worry about the polls, let they conduct them quietly and privately without media coverage, let them look privately at the results, adjust their own campaigns accordingly, leave the public alone to make up their own minds who to vote for without this kind of daily crass manipulation through announcing polling results. |
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17 Oct 08 - 03:09 PM (#2468486) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos LH: Don't be intentionally naif. WHile your argument makes sense in a pure metaphysical abstract view, in the matter of the real-life clumps and tides of humanoid thought that passes for the democratic process, polls are a free exercise of dialogue between people. It might theoretically make the elections "purer" if the polls were not allowed, but it would undercut major, serious primary principals to makie such a rule, notably the consitutional guarantee of free association and free speech. A |
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17 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM (#2468504) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk "polls are a free exercise of dialogue between people" Oh, please. You are pretending to be defending free speech, Amos, but what you are really defending is entrenched media and party power structures and blind, unquestioning, habitual behaviour. You are defending sheer ruthless pragmatism, devoid of moral principle. I think that if your founding fathers had envisioned what would happen in the future they would have written in your Constitution that there shall be no public polling results published in regards to elections as it would unduly prejudice the minds of the public and thereby interfere with the democratic process. They were quite concerned with the "pure metaphysical abstract view" of society and they attempted as best they could to create a document with that in mind...but they just had no idea how badly things could get perverted over a couple of centuries of social and political and technological development. Your Constitution is probably no longer adequate to deal with what is happening now, because it was worded in the terms of a bygone age when people thought differently and were dealing with a very different situation. This continues to be a problem. In a way, it's a bit comparable to the problem that fundamentalist Christians get themselves into when they give modern and literal interpretation to stuff that was written several thousand years ago in a completely different social order. The words and intentions become badly misconstrued. The original ideals and intentions fall by the wayside. |
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17 Oct 08 - 03:40 PM (#2468513) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos I am not pretending anything. If you were to field a motion to prohibit polling you would be flying square into the teeth of the First Amendment, and it is completely disingenuous to tie all your other concerns about our antiquated methods to that uissue. Every organization of any meaningful size would chime in against your suggestion. A |
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17 Oct 08 - 04:37 PM (#2468561) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk "Every organization of any meaningful size would chime in against your suggestion." Yeah, I just bet they would. (grin) That and several of my other suggestions too. They know what side their bread is buttered on. I am not suggesting prohibiting polling, per se. I am suggesting that the results of those polls during an election campaign be available privately to only the politicians themselves and not be made open public knowledge all the time in the media. That way it wouldn't be a means of manipulating the public in terms of who they decide to cast a vote for...or whether they decide to even bother doing so. The rest of the time...have all the published polls you want. No problem. Just don't do it during an election campaign. |
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17 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM (#2468575) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Uncle_DaveO As a matter of personal druthers, I like the idea of prohibiting the publishing of political polls during election campaigns. (Note the first six words.) But I doubt that it would fly, legislatively, and I further doubt that it would fly Constitutionally. And you know that it would go before the Extreme Court, and that it would be struck down. Dave Oesterreich |
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17 Oct 08 - 05:02 PM (#2468584) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: PoppaGator Accurate poll numbers ~ or, at least, poll numbers whose results can be interpreted or adjusted to bear some resemblance to reality ~ are useful to candidiates on both sides, since they gain knowledge upon which to base decisions about where and how to spend their resources. Now, exit polls on Election Day, that's another matter. I absolultely support a total gag order on any hint af actual voting results or "trends" before the last polling places close in the westernmost time zone. But that's not the same thing as these post-debate polls under discussion here, and other research conducted during the long drawn-out campaign season. I do agree that it is extremely unfortunate if and when individuals base their vote upon who they perceive as likely to win, instead of upon who represents one's own interests best among the candidates. It's one thing for "vested interests" to study the likely winners and adjust their corporate-giving policies accordingly ~ that's probably unavoidable ~ but there's no reason for private individuals to follow that same mindset. Private individuals are not going to be in a position of influence in the same way as giant corporations and their lobbyists. |
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17 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM (#2468639) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Uncle_DaveO I'm tempted to reverse myself. Women have that privilege, I've been told, so why not men in this age of equal rights? It occurs to me that, as a stock investor, or other kind of investor, or even a businessman whose line of business is prospectively to be benefited by one set of candidates, or threatened by another, I might want to hedge my bets depending on what I came to see as the likely result of the election. The point is, adjusting one's choice of voting is not the only possible use of poll advice. Dave Oesterreich |
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17 Oct 08 - 06:30 PM (#2468663) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Now, Now Boys!..You're quibbling over symptoms of another problem, and that,..is of trust...Why??..Because WE ALL KNOW, that politicians, government, and the media have lied to us all about important things, a well informed public should know, being as 'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT?????? Perhaps, if more time was spent on morals and integrity, instead of offering manipulated 'solutions' to problems resulting in the wake of other lapses of integrity, and moral conduct, then liars could be so very easily detected, and not paid attention to. Nor would we feel helpless to clear our own lapses, so the bullshitters couldn't have a hold, on your weaknesses...which, when they do, empowers their power over you. Some day, God willing, Honesty, morality, integrity, compassion will be the currency of mankind O.K....I'm done |
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17 Oct 08 - 08:07 PM (#2468746) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk "We the People are supposed to BE the government." Yes, we're supposed to be. But we aren't. Anyone who thinks we are probably still believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. ;-) The government is a consortium of the richest people in the country, working through corporate executives, bankers, and a relatively tight group of highly wealthy and old family lines who are essentially the same group of people who were running things for the last few thousand years. They used to control the monarchies, churches, goldsmithies, and the larger guilds. Now they control what remains of those or what those have mutated into, plus they control the media, the military-industrial complex and the science and medical communities. Their control is not a conspiracy, it's merely a natural coming together of people who share common financial/power interests and who wish to maintain and improve their already very favorable position at the top of the pyramid (just above the All-Seeing Eye of domestic surveillance...find it on your dollar bill). They compete ruthlessly against each other all the time, those people, but most of all they work toward a commonly shared policy that maintains their privileged position, which is at the top of the "food chain". They are predators in expensive suits. It is they who run the government. The government is run by a privileged elite of millionaires and billionaires. The political parties are their handmaidens....or their whores, to put it less politely. Genuine efforts were made in a number of past social revolutions to put the government in the hands of the ordinary people, and this resulted in some definite improvements in the lot of the common man, it resulted in some very progressive documents like the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but it would be the height of naivete to think that we the People in the 21st century are in control of our governments. To the contrary, we are at their mercy. They tell us what we can do and not do...we obey or we suffer the consequences. Try opposing your government in any significant way on behalf of the rights of "the people" and you will find out very fast just how much you are at its mercy. You cannot change this situation through the existing political parties, because they are among the foremost tools of the ruling $ySStem itself, and it's a closed circle. It's like the One Ring in Lord of the Rings. You cannot turn it to a positive purpose, because it wasn't made with that in mind. |
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17 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM (#2468754) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Then, don't participate in anything 'they' are. |
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17 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM (#2468805) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Well, that's kinda difficult, though I think I know what you're alluding to when you say that. But every time I buy gas or pay the utility bill or go shopping and use my money and pay the sale tax and all the other hidden taxes that are built into everything, I am participating, whether I like it or not. What I do is I simply try to live a good life anyway, regardless of the fact that the machinery of the ruling $ySStem is inescapable. Millions of other people are trying to do the same. |
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17 Oct 08 - 10:03 PM (#2468814) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Do what your heart of hearts, recognizes to do....just one of us at a time...beats being controlled by fear, greed,pride,lust for everything you don't need etc. etc...At this time in our lives, we have the gift of having experiencing what is true, and isn't..what works and doesn't. Why pursue things while waiting for a good reason to stop? We already have one! We know! Share your wisdom. Might as well....what are we waiting for? This is what THEY fear!! And you younger pups, True wisdom begins when you hear some one wiser than you, and you listen to them, the way you wish someone would listen to you. Love, and it will create your circumstances!..When loving comes to giving, some people stop at nothing!* *Used by permission by me. From original script. Copyright 1991 |
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17 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM (#2468834) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Donuel FOX poll after last debate: McCain 87% Obama12% "The election is going to be within 1 percentage point" Fox pundits True, if 10 million votes are sucessfully challenged by the Republican party and newly appointed Federal attorneys and courts. Remember if you don't vote, the judges will have nothing to adjudicate. |
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17 Oct 08 - 11:09 PM (#2468849) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity ..and 99% of all forest fires are caused by tree. |
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17 Oct 08 - 11:11 PM (#2468850) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity typo in the other one...Joe!..Joe, get it!! Zap it now!!! And 99% of all forest fires are caused by trees. |
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18 Oct 08 - 12:04 AM (#2468872) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Jesse Jackson Jr, Steven Rosenfeld, Digby and Marc Ambinder on the GOP's race-baiting and smear job against ACORN's massive registration efforts. Jesse Jackson Jr. from the Huffington Post: What the Republicans are Really Afraid of" "The Republicans tried to make fun of Barack Obama as a community organizer at their national convention in Minnesota, which I guess just goes to show how little Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert have to fear from right-wing "humor." Now they've gone further: Now they're attacking ACORN (Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now), one of the strongest, hardest-working, most dedicated community organizations in both Chicago and in 40 states across the U.S. Why are they after ACORN? Well, I'm sure they're going to come up with a lot of "reasons" in the coming days. But the real reason is obvious: Because ACORN, along with Project Vote, just announced that they had successfully registered 1.3 million poor people this year. Get that? 1.3 million, including 148,000 in Pennsylvania, 152,000 in Florida, 217,000 in Michigan, and 238,000 in Ohio. No wonder the GOP is up in arms. They're scared of too many poor people preparing to vote this year. In the last week, the right wing has tried to blame ACORN for the collapse of the globalized financial system--yeah, that's a viable argument. They got excited because they found a some possible fake registration forms in Florida, which predictably led to a bunch of whining from the party that stole an entire presidency from Al Gore by blocking vote counts, mischaracterizing voters as felons, refusing to recount entire counties, sending congressional staff down to riot and intimidate volunteer vote-counters, and topped it all off with the most partisan, badly-reasoned, illegitimate Supreme Court decision since Plessy v. Ferguson. A decision so illegitimate that the partisan majority, to their eternal discredit, themselves damned by writing into their own decision that it should never be used as a precedent for any other court ruling. This week, the right-wing is hyperventilating because apparently Democratic election officials raided an ACORN office after they found the names of some Dallas Cowboy football players among the 80,000 new registration forms that ACORN helped to get done in Nevada. Obviously it's not right for a fake "Tony Romo" to be registered in Las Vegas, so someone was probably playing a not-very-funny joke, or trying to pad their registration numbers to get paid a little more money rather than doing the hard work in the hot Nevada sun that helping voters to register requires, or maybe a provocateur was setting up ACORN for some bad press. But remember the basic point--it's not voter fraud unless someone shows up at the voting booth on election day and tries to pass himself off as "Tony Romo." And who would try to do that? No one is going to be that stupid. The truth is, the main voter fraud efforts going on in my lifetime--and I was born the week of the Selma march in 1965--have been repeated conservative attempts, far too many of them successful, to demonize and suppress the vote of African-Americans and Latinos in election after election, a history for which former RNC Chair Ken Mehlman actually apologized a few years ago, while promising the GOP would no longer engage in such tactics. So they stole an election from Gore, made the Department of Justice into an outfit for partisan hacks, allowed New Orleans to drown, lied us into a war against a country that did not threaten us, replaced science with bad ideology, indebted our grandchildren to China, and turned our banking system into a deregulated casino--but thank the Lord that "Tony Romo" will not be able to sneak in to vote in Nevada next month. This time, there are already fake flyers mysteriously appearing on the streets of minority areas of Philadelphia, illegal voter purges in numerous states, "caging" tricks, threats of using home foreclosure lists to strike voters from the rolls, and "black box" electronic vote-counting systems under the control of private companies--and we haven't even gotten to election day!..." |
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18 Oct 08 - 12:28 AM (#2468880) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: CamiSu Perhaps I am not reading carefully enough, but I have not seen the other danger of paying attention to polls. If you think that your person is doing so well that you don't need to vote, you and everyone else stays home. Dangerous! BTW, have you heard that one Irish bookie is already paying out on an Obama win? Interesting thought. CamiSu |
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18 Oct 08 - 01:37 AM (#2468902) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos A tradition o flies about vote fraud as a mechanism for suppressing votes. These particulars lies come from McCain, and earlier, from the Bush campaigns. A |
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18 Oct 08 - 02:10 AM (#2468916) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Words...I used to believe in words. |
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18 Oct 08 - 10:27 AM (#2469129) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Donuel All my life I watched the best liar or best liars win the elections, build the most expensive churches or become the most lauded pundits. Only the voice of humor or satire seemed to be telling the truth to me. Slowly I discovered the best truth tellers. Many of them had to keep their head down in this small town mass society. Slowly I saw their numbers grow. With each Purlitzer and Nobel Prize I grew more hopeful that the most deserving would be heard, heeded and respected. Then a dark age spread across my country as hope and enlightenment grew darker with each passing war of attrition and despondency. The short term heros are invariably the best liars. The greatest truth tellers give hope to long run victories and solutions. We are still asked to choose between great liars of powerful emotions and schemes and the meek truth tellers. There is a place for both the short term liar and the long term truth teller but the greatest truth tellers are the only heros that earn my respect. Some do it with science and some do it with art. Some do it naturally because they have a good heart. |
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18 Oct 08 - 10:40 AM (#2469133) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Donuel There are no absolutes. Even absolute liars tell the truth sometimes, and truth tellers... are known to hedge their bets. |
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18 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM (#2469239) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Uncle_DaveO G from S asked, 'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT?????? No, wrong. We, the people, are supposed to be the sources of the power of government. "The government" in a republic is a set of people who are elected to use their abilities and judgment in our behalf. In modern times, with modern communications, it has gradually become more possible (and therefore thought by some to be more desirable) for those representatives to be guided by the shifting desires of the electorate. Dave Oesterreich |
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18 Oct 08 - 03:32 PM (#2469315) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM G from S asked, 'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT?????? No, wrong. Did you read any further, oh bright one. 'Government OF, FOR, AND BY. |
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18 Oct 08 - 08:27 PM (#2469492) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Olbermann and Obama's counter-attack against vote suppression. A |
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18 Oct 08 - 10:55 PM (#2469602) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: The Fooles Troupe "For lies to be believed all that is necessary is: 1. Issue them from an official and authoritative "source" 2. Repeat them over and over again in the national media 3. ...and soon they are gospel, common knowledge, believed by most people 4. MOST important of all...the lies of ommission. Simply don't talk about it, and people won't know about it, will they? They can't know what they don't hear." Really mate! You should have attributed your source - Goebbels! :-P And Remember "Tall Jan is Malicious!" .... :-) |
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18 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM (#2469616) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Amos Lying through her teeth: "Barack Obama had supported cutting off funding for our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and I see the Blue Star Moms out there also. My heart is with you also knowing that when an action like that is taken it makes us question what is the mission there? What is the intention there?" Palin said, "Someone who would desire to be the commander in chief and yet would be willing to cut off funding for the troops with a vote that he took. No John McCain understands the mission. He understands that the virtues of freedom are worth fighting for." (A quote from a Palin speech) Barack Obama voted to fund troops in Iraq and Afghanistan at least ten times, before voting against once because there was no date for withdrawal from Iraq in the legislation. A |
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18 Oct 08 - 11:35 PM (#2469623) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: The Fooles Troupe "virtues of freedom are worth fighting for" Ah - but freedom for WHOM? ... :-) ;-) |
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19 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM (#2470081) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Uncle_DaveO G from S asked, 'WE THE PEOPLE' ARE SUPPOSE TO Be the GOVERNMENT.....RIGHT?????? Uncle DaveO replied: No, wrong. To which G from S replied: Did you read any further, oh bright one. 'Government OF, FOR, AND BY. "Government OF" is a cognate of "management of a campaign". In this sense, you could say that an equestrian governs his horse. "Government FOR" is a statement of the target of the benefits, that the object of government is to benefit the people. "Government BY", however (despite Lincoln's great oratory, which is not the Constitution) is a misnomer. Under the Constitution, the United States is a republic, not a democracy, popular as that word is. The United States is not, never has been, and was never intended to be a democracy, where the people actually governed. "Democracy" is a form of governance appropriate to say a small town, where decisions are made at a town meeting, on vote of the actual citizens. It's not at all a practical form for (probably) even a county government, and certainly not a State. "The government" refers to that set of chosen or elected officers and civil servants which creates and carries out the administration of the laws, in order to govern the people. As one might say that the CEO, CFO, board of directors, and officers of a business provide (as opposed to "are") the management "of" a business, "for" the stockholders, at least in theory. Dave Oesterreich |
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19 Oct 08 - 02:27 PM (#2470091) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: Little Hawk Dave, since every single person serving in the government is a person who came out of the ranks OF the people....how is it then NOT a government BY the people? Does one stop being a "person" when one becomes a politician? Hmmmm? (!) That would make for an interesting discussion, wouldn't it? LOL! As long as you're set on picking nits, though, could you stop by and help Chongo out this weekend? He has some. |
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19 Oct 08 - 07:17 PM (#2470309) Subject: RE: BS: Mommy, Where Do Lies Come From? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Now I've seen everything!!! Lay off the sauce!! |