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07 Jan 09 - 11:05 AM (#2534109) Subject: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Muckart I wonder can anyone make some suggestions from similar experience. My diesel van (Ford, 1998, 1.8, and only 45,000 miles done) has developed a problem. mechanic I usually take it to says he's never heard anything like it, but thinks it might be something to do with a ?fuel injector. He's given me the address of a diesel specialist, but this is quite far away and I'm scared of the van breaking down on the way, so I'm hoping someone here could give any advice about the likely cause. I first noticed the engine was losing power, it couldnt get above 40, and then it started jerking (I depressed the clutch), making a noise like a tractor or a machinegun, clouds of white smoke were coming from the exhaust, speed dropped to a crawl, and I later noticed that there was a heavy deposit of fuel all over the back window. Curiously, after I had revved the engine fully whilst stationary, the problem stopped for an hour or two (it got me the hundred miles back home), but now it seems terminal. Oh - and the red ignition light doesnt go off, as it should. If anyone has experienced this kind of thing, I'd be very grateful to know what it was that caused their problem - and whether there was a cure (I obviously dont want to waste money on something insoluble Muckart D |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM (#2534112) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome Common cause of smokey exhaust from a diesel is a blocked air filter but I dunno if that applies to injection models - I'm not that mechanical. Ignition light not going off is usualy a broken alternator belt or some other alternator problem. I'm sure someone cleverer at these things than me will help more though! Good luck whatever it is. DeG |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:17 AM (#2534120) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: bobad It may be a problem with the glow plugs or the relay that turns them off. One may not be turning off, or on, and this can throw off the combustion timing. |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM (#2534128) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: GUEST,beardedbruce clogged/broken injector? Clogged airway ( Intake valve?) |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM (#2534131) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Willie-O I don't know from diesel but the symptoms sound similar to a defective MAF (Mass Air Flow) valve, a component of the air intake system. Very easily replaced since it is an external component, might cost a bit though. A common breakdown with 4.0 litre Ford motors (1.8 l motor in a van!--we don't see those in North America). Similar to what David suggests, an air mixture problem. However the fuel deposits (on your rear window??) don't fit with this guess; maybe your "mechanic" is on the right track (But remember, everything you observe is not necessarily related to the specific problem). I Suggest you PM Catspaw49, he's the top-ranked gearhead on the Cat. Good luck withthat. W-O |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:37 AM (#2534135) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John MacKenzie Sounds like it may be the electric fuel cut out on the pump. I have had a similar problem on a Transit |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:40 AM (#2534142) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge White smoke is usualy coolant in the exhaust. Bad. Black smoke is usually incomplete combustion - might be overfuelling, might be injector problem, might be one or more cylinders not igniting - which could be down to poor compression on one or more cylinders. This would fit with black greasy residue on rear of vehicle. Those two symptoms are looking like blown head gasket or cracked head or block. Problem vanishing after revving the bolleaux off the engine while stationary does NOT fit that diagnosis. So what else could give water in combustion plus incomplete combustion? Maybe the water trap on the fuel line to the injectors plus a sticky injector. The ignition light is almost certainly red herring, but do check to make sure the alternator belt is still on. Yes, you need a diesel mecco. Willie-O, this is probably a van about the size of a Ford Fiesta or Focus, not the size of a US panel van. |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM (#2534145) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Muckart Thank-you to all who have so far posted. It seems there's quite a choice of illnesses! And the van is indeed a Ford Fiesta ("car-derived van"). |
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07 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM (#2534153) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: EBarnacle My guess is that it is probably a control chip. The fuel sounds as though it is coming through too rich. Also check the sensor which turns off the glow plug. If the glow plug is actually on, there is probably a linked control which has your fuel mix in starting mode, ie, too rich. |
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07 Jan 09 - 12:10 PM (#2534166) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: pdq Glow plugs are not really a necessary part of a diesel engine's operation. I had a Case tractor for a few years and it had no glow plugs at all. Started like a champ at -2 F. In fact, diesel engines have powered trucks, planes, ships and industry for 100 years, nearly 1/2 that time without this device, introduced in 1946. It is possible that the system that controls fuel mixture also controls the glow plug cycle, meaning that the problem would be one of defectives sensor(s) or computer control devices. I think a cracked piston ring, perhaps a craced piston is to blame, but have injector controls system checked first (by the best diesel mechanic you can locate). |
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07 Jan 09 - 12:12 PM (#2534168) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John MacKenzie White smoke is unburned diesel "Answer Hi , Sorry for the delay in answering your question. Scenario 1 ) If your engine cuts out dead as if the ignition has been turned off, whilst travelling, I would suggest a faulty fuel cut off valve or associated power supply to the solenoid. Also some of these vehicles had an anti-theft module on the fuel pump (Lucas CAV fuel system) these were very tempremental and also very difficult to diagnose as faulty if the fault was intermittant. Scenario 2) If your vehicle cuts out gradually i.e. gradual loss of power , there have been instances where the fuel tank vent valve assembly has become blocked(located under drivers rear wheel arch ( if fitted ) thus causing a vacuum in the tank which in turn will try to draw fuel back rather than allow it to be drawn out to the fuel pump. The easy test for this if it was a Lucas system was to observe the hand primer on the top of the filter assembly. This would be drawn downwards by the vacuum. Unfortunately on a Bosch system there is no hand primerwhich again makes diagnosis difficult especially when the fault is only occuring 4 times a week. If the vehicle was in my workshops here is what I would do. If the system is Lucas or bosch remove the fuel cut off valve (24mm) if it is accessible as somtimes the anti-theft shields cover the solenoid. Remove the plunger and very small spring . Replace the solenoid body in the hole and use vehicle but stalling will be required to stop it. If the symptoms do not return then perhaps you will be on the right path. If they did return i would then basically remove the vent valve and leave the pipes loose and try again. If the system is Lucas then also the hand primers do go faulty . it is a rubber diaphragm that can perish and allow air into the system that will cause cutting out and poor starting. This can be replaced for around £30 for complete top, or about £5 for a diaphragm and do it yourself, available from all good fuel injection agents! Bosch systems are harder to diagnose and if the faults were constantly causing you probs i.e. every few hours or less, then I would suggest running fuel pipes to your injector pump from a container of diesel, ( flow and return) and see how it performs then . I do not know if you will be aware that on both systems the fuel is drawn by a vane pump inside the injector pumps and basically needs all the help it needs. Bosch pumps have a steel vane pump fitted in the drive end of the pup, and Lucas have one at the injector pipe end, both are suseptable to wear at your vehicles mileage. You do not say also if the vehicl cuts out immediately from starting or on a journey. If from starting i would try hand priming (if fitted) the system first , as fuel can run back to the tank. These are just a few of the many more things that could be a problem . Glow plugs are purly cold start aid and bear no significance in warm starting. Hope I have not fried your brain to much. Incidentally i am not working in the fuel injection business now , I was made redundant last Xmas. But I am now service manager in Toyota franchise , and they do not break down very often , great ! Keep in touch if the need be , I am still happy to assist . Anthony " Found this |
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07 Jan 09 - 12:39 PM (#2534190) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Willie-O I looked up the Fiesta van...holy crap, thats a van? My sister-in-law had a Fiesta when she was in grad school and it was barely a car. Your version though is cute as the dickens and I see you have the extra-large engine, not the 1.25 litre. My favourite part of the description was that the Fiesta is rated to tow a trailer UP TO 5,500 KG...hmmm, d'ya need a special licence for that? And if you've been towing a loaded horse trailer, muck, that could explain the extra wear on the engine. It's clear what $10/gallon gas can do to vehicle design. I'm in Canada not the US but the relative vehicle sizes are the same...what we call mini-vans, you'd find gargantuan. For work I drive a full-size Chev Express van where the back door is in another time zone. How expensive is diesel compared to regular gas in the UK? It's about 20c/l more here. Good luck again. W-O |
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07 Jan 09 - 01:20 PM (#2534237) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome a craced piston is to blame I've always wanted a mechanic to say 'piston broke' so I can slur the answer, 'sho am I, mate, sho am I...' :D |
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07 Jan 09 - 01:25 PM (#2534240) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome Just a quick, and probably daft, question. Are you sure it is the ignition light that is staying on? Could it one one of the other warning lights? If so it could help you diagnose the problem. Check with the manual if you are not sure. D. |
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07 Jan 09 - 01:28 PM (#2534242) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome PS - With any red warning light on you should not realy be running the vehicle. If it is the alternator belt all that will happen is that you will 'run out of electricity' for want of a better term. If it's owt else you could well bugger it up altogether:-( D |
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07 Jan 09 - 01:50 PM (#2534263) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John J Slightly off topic, my 1.4 diesel Fiesta quite happily tows my 3.5m long caravan, returning 36-45mpg depending on speed, conditions etc. John |
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07 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM (#2534264) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: kendall If the fan belt is broken that will cause the engine to over heat and serious damage will happen if you keep driving it. It is, of course, impossible to diagnose a problem this way. Get it to a good mechanic. It sounds like it shouldn't be driven, so have it towed there. |
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07 Jan 09 - 05:47 PM (#2534516) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: GUEST,bigrickpa sorry to say, i think richard is right. in my experience with diesels, white smoke is bad. it means coolant in the combustion chambers. unburned fuel is black smoke, blue smoke is burned oil. the coating on your back window might be coolant after its been through the exhaust after burning. check your oil. does it look normal, or does it look kinda like chocolate milk? if its milky, there's coolant in there.that means head gasket, or cracked block or head. have you had trouble getting heat from your cabin heater? that's a sign your head gasket is going bad. coolant is going into the block, but not into the heater core for cabin heat. if either of these signs are there, you have a big problem.either way, don't drive until you get it looked at. |
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07 Jan 09 - 06:23 PM (#2534561) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge By the way, come back and tell us when you know or we will be arguing about this into the next century... |
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08 Jan 09 - 03:06 AM (#2534809) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome The fan probably isn't driven by a belt nowadays, Kendall. Oh for the days when it was and we could fix anything with a ladies stocking, a cigarette paper and an adjustable spanner:-) Cheers DeG |
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08 Jan 09 - 04:00 AM (#2534848) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge Getting the stocking could be fun too. And you left out the egg and porridge for the radiator. |
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08 Jan 09 - 07:21 AM (#2534955) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: banjoman I have had a lot of experience in running and maintaining deisel engines in cars and vans although I'm not a mechanic. The problems you describe sound very much like what happened to my Renault Traffic a few years ago when one of the cylinder wet liners broke and allowed coolant to boil off through the exhaust, resulting in a black sticky deposit on the rear window. The problem seemed to resolve itself for a short while but ultimately resulted in a new engine being fitted. I really hope you can sort your problem out a bit cheaper than that. I think that any Ford garge could make a proper diagnosis. Best of luck Pete |
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08 Jan 09 - 08:46 AM (#2535015) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Bobert If I had to bet I would say it's the "injector pump" which regulates the amount of fuel mixture that is allowed to enter the cumbustion chamber thru the intake valve... A clogged injector would make it either not run or run lein... So, that's my guess... Of course a badly clogged air-filter, as someone allready made mention of, will do the exact same thing... Good luck and keep us posted... Bobert (motorhead and bluesman) |
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09 Jan 09 - 03:15 AM (#2535738) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Jim Lad I'm guessing that you have water in the fuel tank. Ask your mechanic to test it. It's an easy fix if you do but I'd suggest either buying your fuel somewhere else or putting a lock on your cap. Haven't had a tiff with the neighbours kids, have you? |
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09 Jan 09 - 05:12 AM (#2535786) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: skarpi I have two diesel cars , have no problem at all , but I have a question how often have you taken the car to service check up since you got the car ? I have to go : 15:000 km - 30:000km- 45:000km-and in 60:000km and most likely your problem is the diesel oil filter is dirty along with the air filter , but also to save money and diesel you should also change oil, if the filter is okei , then the pump is not pumping enough diesel oil into the engine . those are most likely the couses , I talked to a diesel fan for 50 years of hard Icelandic exsperience on the mountains , Good luck . All the best Skarpi |
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09 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM (#2535849) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John MacKenzie Change your filters twice as often as the manufacturer specifies. Same goes for the oil, an oil change is like a heart transplant for an engine, particularly a diesel. A gallon or 2 of oil is cheaper than a new engine I've found! |
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09 Jan 09 - 09:06 AM (#2535934) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: EBarnacle In line with the last 2 posts, are you using biodiesel? There have been more than a few reports of algae growth causing major problems. Two truck lines I deal with have instucted their drives not to buy biodiesel as a result of problems with this product. |
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10 Jan 09 - 01:39 AM (#2536831) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Sawzaw I had a Ford diesel truck one time and the fuel injector pump was crap. It was all pot metal and kept needing to be rebuilt. Phooey on diesels anyway. I had 4 Mercedes Diesels '58, '60, '72 and '84 and they were all a pain in the ass. |
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10 Jan 09 - 06:18 AM (#2536914) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John MacKenzie What do you expect mate, Rudolf Diesel was a German after all ;) |
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10 Jan 09 - 08:28 AM (#2536982) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Bobert Stop the presses!!! Sawz and I agree on something!!! Yeah, I diagnosed it as a bad injector pump, too... BTW, water in the fuel will make it not run... what happens is that it collects at the lowest part of the fuel system... Usually the filter and eventually fills up the filter to where the fuel cannnot get thru to the pump and then on to the injector itself... That's why it always good to use feul treatment with yer fuel shich allows the fuel to absorb the water and in very small porportions that don't effect the running of the engine... Either way, water won't burn black even if mixed in with fuel... This is more than likely going to the pump... Bobert (motorhead) |
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10 Jan 09 - 10:35 AM (#2537062) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Muckart Oh, hell! I think I'll just cut my losses and sell the van for spare parts to what's called a "scrappy" in the UK and then take a risk on a slightly bigger van (anyone got any opinions on the Vauxhall "Astra"?!). I'm very grateful for all the suggestions and advice, and, in answer to some of the specific points made above: D el gnomo: the alternator was replaced about two years back, the original one had "frozen-up"; also, it IS the ignition light which isn't going off (the manual states, if this happens, I should drive directly to Ford dealer - but I bought the van second-hand, from a reputable dealer in commercial vehicles) J MacK: I think a Ford dealer has already told me there isn't any electric fuel cut-out in the Diesel model (but that was two years ago also, and I might have misunderestimated... Willie-O: yes, I thought the Ford Fieta van does look quite "cute" and even elegant, and it also allows me to use it as a mini-mini-caravan with a sleeping bag and blankets. No, I've not been towing anything (and neither I nor partner are ourselves "gargantuan") Not using biofuel, and the cap to the fuel-tank is secured. Filters were changed a year back (and ?"fuel lines" had compressed air blown through) Also, had a new timer-belt fitted. Once I can find someone to help with towing, I'll take it at night (empty roads) to the specialist mentioned by the mechanic I go to for MOT certificates; for those from North American continent, that's a "Ministry of Transport" test to check that certain features are working properly - done on vehicles more than three years old. Again, many thanks for your interest. I'll revive this thread once I get the problem diagnosed, and/or sorted (or, as I feel like doing, have the van quietly "put to sleep". We've had some good camping trips, sometimes associated with music festivals, together. "sob") |
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10 Jan 09 - 11:08 AM (#2537110) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: John MacKenzie Look here, the thing I refer to as a cut of valve, is here called a magnet valve. It drops when the power is turned off, it's a sort of solenoid. If it gets grit in it, it doesn't close, or it jams neither in nor out. It can cause poor starting, and mis-fuelling. |
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10 Jan 09 - 11:27 AM (#2537136) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Muckart To John MacKenzie: Thank heavens I took care not to appear dismissive of your suggestion, above - to expand a little, I had previously wondered whether a knock/jolt/bump (as in bouncing into a pothole in the road) could have caused an automatic device to shut off the fuel supply, one of the suggections mentioned in the manual for a failure to start; as far as I remember, there's a little lever near to the passenger door to reset this safety device and allow fuel to be fed again. The dealer told me that this device is only found in the petrol version, and (as you'll have guessed) I in my ignorance assumed that this was one of the possibilities you had thought of. Once again, many thanks for your interest and information, M D |
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10 Jan 09 - 11:35 AM (#2537144) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge There'll be an electric fuel shutoff valve somewhere all right. Decompression taps went out with the ARK and there's no ignition to turn off on a diesel. You can probably get an alternator if that is the fault for the "ignition" light for maybe second hand 30 squid or recon from a proper expert electrical factor for about 90. For the latter, try TMF, Northfleet, Kent, they beat the band on batteries and electrical essentials for cars, usually. The big issue is that smoking and misfiring. |
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10 Jan 09 - 03:24 PM (#2537341) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome If you are going to change it don't take it to a scrappers - Use it as deposit at one of the big second hand car marts. They are usualy a bit dearer than anywhree else but lots do offer good prices on any vehicle, any condition as deposit and then let you have 12 months interest free credit for up to about 5K. OK - You can probably get cheaper buying privately but then loose money onm the old van and, if you need finance, pay interest on a loan. Cheers DeG |
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10 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM (#2537478) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge Be VERY wary of those car supermarkets. I have had to pry two clients loose from their cluthes and it ain't easy! |
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10 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM (#2537548) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Dave the Gnome Aye - I should have added the warning about high pressure sales techniques but, fortunately, I have been pretty impervious to them up to now. Much to the annoyance of the salesman:-) DeG |
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10 Jan 09 - 07:49 PM (#2537604) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: pdq The following is pieced together from a Ford PR blurb. It seems that your "van" will get at least 50 mpg and is cute, handles well and is highly respected. Perhaps a later engine would be a bolt-in. Remember, you're having trouble with only the engine. A wrecking yard tansplant would still be cost -effective on a vehicle with only 45K miles, I believe: BRIDGEND/DAGENHAM, UK, August 22, 2006 – Ford of Europe is now reaping the benefits of a 3-year, £890 million ($1.670m / €1.305m) investment in flexible manufacturing facilities at its two UK-based engine plants. The move will significantly increase output while at the same time allow Ford to better serve the market for new vehicles. By 2009, Ford will be building approximately two million engines a year in Britain, with output split evenly between its Bridgend and Dagenham engine plants. The combined plants are on track to produce nearly 1.3 million engines this year. "Flexible technology is the key to this growth, enabling us to produce more than one type of engine on the same assembly line" said John Fleming, President and CEO, Ford of Europe. "It allows us to respond quickly and efficiently to changing customer demands" In the high-tech Dagenham and Bridgend plants, engine blocks are mounted on standard-sized platens prior to their journey down the assembly line. A bar code system ensures timely delivery of the components line-side operators need to assemble each individual engine. With this flexible system, the highly trained line operators are able to switch between different products smoothly and efficiently. The Bridgend plant in South Wales produces a variety of petrol engines, from 1.25 litre Zetec SE for the Ford Fiesta, to the AJ V8 series engines for Land Rover and Jaguar vehicles. The Dagenham Diesel Centre makes engines ranging from the 1.8 litre TDCi for Ford Focus, Focus C-MAX, Transit Connect and Galaxy, to a new state-of-the-art 3.6 litre V8. In a major output expansion earlier this year, both plants introduced new, premium engines. Dagenham Diesel Centre launched a V8 diesel engine, and Bridgend began manufacturing a new 3.2 litre 6-cylinder power unit. More than £12.2 million was invested at Dagenham in the development and manufacture of the twin-turbo 3.6-litre V8 engine, bringing the total invested to £644.2 million since the facility became Ford's diesel centre of excellence in 2003. With its firm commitment to the environment, Ford invests heavily to ensure that its powertrains are fuel efficient, comply with stringent emission standards and are manufactured in environmentally responsible plants. The Bridgend and Dagenham plants, for example, utilise innovative clean energy installations. Bridgend has one of the largest solar energy installations in Europe, while Dagenham receives power generated by two giant wind turbines. *Dagenham's engine range: 1.8 L TDCi – Focus, C-MAX, Transit Connect, Galaxy 2.0 L TDCi – Mondeo, S-MAX, Galaxy, Transit, Jaguar X-Type 2.4 L TDCi – Transit 2.7 L V6 Diesel – Jaguar S-Type, LR Discovery, RR Sport, Peugeot 607 and 407, Citroën C6 3.6 L V8 Diesel – Range Rover |
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10 Jan 09 - 08:27 PM (#2537655) Subject: RE: BS: What's wrong with my vehicle! From: Richard Bridge The nearest "Small Ford Centre" will probably be able to give you a sensible price for an engine transplant if needed - but IMHO head gasket or head or timing gear is likely to sort it and be cheaper. |