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02 Jul 09 - 09:48 PM (#2670261) Subject: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,Sadie Damascus, CA Hello, friends. Can anyone help me with the phonetic pronunciation of the end of the first line, and the second and fourth lines? King Orfeo A Shetland Ballad DER lived a king inta da aste, Scowan ürla grün (Early green's the wood) Der lived a lady in da wast. Whar giorten han grün oarlac. (Where the hart goes yearly) Thank you. |
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03 Jul 09 - 12:31 AM (#2670307) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: Kent Davis I don't think the language is Gaelic or any Celtic language. It could be Norn, the Norse language of Shetland, which is closer to Norwegian and to English than it is to Gaelic. Kent |
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03 Jul 09 - 12:34 AM (#2670308) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: catspaw49 I think its pronounced juh-BLON-skee......... Spaw |
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03 Jul 09 - 01:48 AM (#2670327) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: Joe Offer I don't know any more than Spaw does. I have to say, Sadie, that you ask the most interesting questions. I wish we'd see you here more often. -Joe- |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:33 AM (#2670342) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan Kent is right - it's not gaelic. Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:45 AM (#2670346) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: Ross Campbell Shetland is closer to Oslo than to Edinburgh and the islands were never occupied by any of the Celts, only belonging to Scotland by historical accident. Nordic influences are still there in the music. Suibhne O'Piobaireachd, who has been known to sing the song, may chip in later. I'll PM him. Ross |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:56 AM (#2670349) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic in 'King Orfeo' From: Cluin Get ahold of the old classic Archie Fisher album, "Orfeo". He sings it on that one, though he sings the 4th line differently. I have it on vinyl here. He claims the language is Middle Danish. The tune has no 3rd or 6th in the scale. |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:56 AM (#2670350) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan There's a version in The Oxford Book of Ballads available online HERE - with some irritating ads. Looks to me to be a mix of Scots and Norn. Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:58 AM (#2670351) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: peregrina There is a text in The Oxford Book of Ballads (ed. Quiller Couch 1910 rpt 1932), item 15, pp. 62-3. There is a recording on Archie Fisher's CD Orfeo of a longer reconstructed version; the notes cite a recording made for the EFDSS of a singer from Unst named John Stickle, recorded by Pat Shuldam-Shaw. https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/44593/pg44593-images.html |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:00 AM (#2670384) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,Shimrod Alison McMorland sings 'King Orfeo' on a CD called 'The Ballad Tree' which she made with Geordie McIntyre and Kirsten Potts. It's on the 'Tradition Bearers' label LTCD1051, 2003. Actually I heard Alison sing this live just a couple of weeks ago - very impressive - but then Geordie and Alison are always impressive, and unmissable - two of Scotland's finest! |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:31 AM (#2670410) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan Came across this on the Celtic-L discussion forum: The Norn language seems to have died with its last speakers some time before the end of the 18th century, but it has left plenty of traces in the dialects of Scots spoken in Orkney and Shetland, where there a great many dialect words that are unknown elsewhere in Scotland, and some distinctive features of pronunciation. Hardly any Norn was ever written down. One of the best known fragments to have been recorded is the refrain of the ballad "Sir Orfeo", collected in Shetland in the 19th century (first published in 1880) - the full text is in the "Oxford Book of Ballads". The first verse -1st and 3rd lines in Shetland dialect, 2nd and 4th in Norn - goes like this: Der lived a king inta da aste, Scowan ürla grün; Der lived a lady in da wast, Whar giorten han grün oarlac. Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 05:12 AM (#2670439) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jack Blandiver The pronunciation is pretty much as written: scowan urla grun - wha yorten han grun orlac - although I've heard the variation scowan arlish grun / wha yorten han gorl arlish. The Archie Fisher version contains many gratuitous exta(neous) verses (by Martin Carthy apparently) and an arrangement featuring saga strings, basically an orchestral string section playing stirring cadences over a fetching pedal drone; the effect is such that after the intro one expects to hear Scott Walker rather than Archie Fisher. A classic of its kind really which the rest of the album sadly fails to live up to. I first heard the song 30 years ago, as sung by one Fred Lane of Lancashire on Styrbjorn Bergelt's 1979 LP Tagelharpa Och Videfloyte, thus introducing me not only to King Orfeo but the whole bowed-harp thing. So thirty years of Orfeo & Crwth! That said, the latest recording I made of it is a demo on which I accompany myself on Tibetan singing bowl. Just this minute uploaded this recording onto my myspace page. Listen to it at: http://www.myspace.com/sedayne. The image is a pastel by Ron Baxter made after I sang the ballad at The Fleetwood Folk Club back in the autumn. To see the image in greater detail click HERE. * The story of how the tune was discovered is interesting, as for many years the ballad featured in many collections, including Child (#19) without a melody until an old singer (forgive me, I know not who!) piped up with a single verse, introducing it as a piece of nonsense, or words to that effect, thus completing the picture. Perhaps someone can provide the actual details of this? And whatever became of Fred Lane? |
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03 Jul 09 - 05:28 AM (#2670447) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan Some background from British Popular Ballads by J.R. Housman. Not sure of the date - nor of how authoritative it is. Interesting, at least. Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 05:31 AM (#2670448) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan Housman's book first published 1952? Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 01:12 PM (#2670770) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,Shimrod "The story of how the tune was discovered is interesting, as for many years the ballad featured in many collections, including Child (#19) without a melody until an old singer (forgive me, I know not who!) piped up with a single verse, introducing it as a piece of nonsense, or words to that effect, thus completing the picture. Perhaps someone can provide the actual details of this?" To quote from the notes to Alison Mc Morland and Geordie McIntyre CD mentioned above: "In 1952 the eminent collector Pat Shuldham Shaw recorded five verses set to this wonderful pentatonic tune from John Stickle of Unst (Shetland). Bertrand Bronson, the ballad tune scholar, stated that to hear this whisper from the middle-ages was "as little expected as we should hear the horns of elfinland* blowing"" * The CD note reads "England" but I'm certain that this is a mis-print and Bronson's original word was "elfinland". If you can lay your hands on a set of the Caedmon/Topic 'Folk Songs of Britain' LPs - and something to play them on - you can actually hear Shuldham Shaw's original recording of John Stickle (Topic 12T 160; TFSoB Vol.4., The Child Ballads No. 1, Side A, Track 7). |
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03 Jul 09 - 01:54 PM (#2670802) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Mick Pearce (MCP) John Stickle had the second line Scowan Earl grey and the 4th For yetter kangra norla. Kitty Anderson's version (the other with a tune) has the lines as Sconner le groon and Whar yorten han groon varlee. Bronson has a footnote to the latter: "Sconner le groon (?The wood is green yearly") = Scan arlish groon (?"The wood is yearly green"). Whar yorten han groon varlee (?"Where the garden grows green yearly") = Whar yorten han gor arlish (?"Where the hart goes yearly"). Cf. also JEFDSS, V, 77". That journal - Dec 47 - is where John Stickle's version was published; if anyone has access to a copy it might have some more useful information. See also the thread: Origins: King Orfeo versions. Mick |
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03 Jul 09 - 02:20 PM (#2670824) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Phil Edwards if anyone has access to a copy I hear and obey! The reference is to a brief article in JEFDSS 5(2), December 1947, called "Folk Music and Dance in Shetland" by Patrick Shuldham-Shaw. There's not a lot more information there, although it does (perhaps by accident) include two versions of the second chorus line - For yetter kangra norla and For gettar kangra norla. The text given is: Will ye come into our Ha'? Scowan Earl Grey Yes we'll come into your Ha' For yetter kangra norla And we'll come into your ha' And we'll come in among ye a' First they played the notes o noy Then they played the notes o joy Then they played the good old gabber reel Which might a made a sick heart heal Shuldham-Smith writes: This is all of the ballad that Mr Stickle could remember. For complete versions of the text see The Oxford Book of Ballads and also the Shetland Times. The chorus-lines seem to be a corruption of "Scowan urla grun" (Early green is the wood) and "Whar giorten han grun oarlac" (Where the hart goes yearly) He doesn't say what language it is, though. |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:30 PM (#2670921) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Thanks Pip. If it was by accident Bronson repeats it! Of the 2nd version Bronson adds in a footnote that In rec 1953/3 the singer gives two version of the chorus, the second of which is also found in the Shetland Folk Book, II ed E.S.Reid Tait, 1947-51, which are the ones I quoted above. Child says of the version he prints (from The Leisure Hour, 1880) (lines, Scowen ürla grün, and Whar giorten han grün oarlac) "The Scandanavian burden was, perhaps, no more intelligible to the singer than " Hey non nonny" is to us. The first line seems to be Unst for Danish Skoven årle grün (Early green's the wood). The sense of the other line is not so obvious. Professor Grundtvig has suggested to me Hvor hjorten han går årlig (Where the hart goes yearly)." The Danish seems to be the same sense as printed by Bronson, although Norn seems to be the general opinion of the language of the chorus. Mick |
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03 Jul 09 - 04:40 PM (#2670926) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,Lighter Suibhne: truly weird, very nice! Thanks for posting! |
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03 Jul 09 - 06:02 PM (#2671017) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Commander Crabbe Hi The following sites might be of help. site 1 Site 2 Site 3 The last post is an article in the shetland times and if anyone can help you it is probably best to make an enquiry there. I lived in Shetland for three years and the dialect is somewhat similar to some of the old dialect in north yorkshire which was also influenced by nordic/scandinavian peoples. Good luck CC |
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03 Jul 09 - 06:10 PM (#2671023) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: MartinRyan Thanks for that, CC - very interesting. Regards |
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03 Jul 09 - 08:13 PM (#2671111) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jack Campin There are 2 ABC transcriptions of this known to JC's Tunefinder, both of which seem to be incomplete (they end with continuation marks). Both are attributed to Erich Rickheit, who mostly did translations of Mudcat SongWright files. So it probably started out on Mudcat before it got garbled. Anybody in a position to post a correct version? |
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03 Jul 09 - 08:47 PM (#2671138) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Commander Crabbe Here's one does it correspond? 19A.1 DER lived a king inta da aste, Refrain: Scowan ürla grün Der lived a lady in da wast. Refrain: Whar giorten han grün oarlac 19A.2 Dis king he has a huntin gaen, He's left his Lady Isabel alane. 19A.3 'Oh I wis ye'd never gaen away, For at your hame is d'ol an wae. 19A.4 'For da king o Ferrie we his daert, Has pierced your lady to da hert.' * * * * * 19A.5 And aifter dem da king has gaen, But whan he cam it was a grey stane. 19A.6 Dan he took oot his pipes ta play, Bit sair his hert wi d'ol an wae. 19A.7 And first he played da notes o noy, An dan he played da notes o joy. 19A.8 An dan he played da g'od gabber reel, Dat meicht ha made a sick hert hale. * * * * * 19A.9 'Noo come ye in inta wir ha, An come ye in among wis a'.' 19A.10 Now he's gaen in inta der ha, An he's gaen in among dem a'. 19A.11 Dan he took out his pipes to play, Bit sair his hert wi d'ol an wae. 19A.12 An first he played da notes o noy, An dan he played da notes o joy. 19A.13 An dan he played da g'od gabber reel, Dat meicht ha made a sick hert hale. 19A.14 'Noo tell to us what ye will hae: What sall we gie you for your play? 19A.15 'What I will hae I will you tell, An dat's me Lady Isabel.' 19A.16 'Yees tak your lady, an yees gaeng hame, An yees be king ower a' your ain.' 19A.17 He's taen his lady, an he's gaen hame, An noo he's king ower a' his ain. CC |
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04 Jul 09 - 03:55 AM (#2671274) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jim Carroll This is the information which accompanies John Stickle of Lerwick's version from he Folk Songs of Briain series. The only text in Child comes also from a Shetland singer. Jim Carroll 7. KING ORFEO (Child 19), sung by John Stickle, Lerwick, Shetland; recorded by Patrick Shuldham-Shaw. It is common experience to hear songs and tales in Gaelic about persons kidnapped by the little people, but such ancient lore has almost disappeared in other parts of the west. According to Bronson (Vol. 1, p. 275), this melody is also very ancient. 'That a tune should in the midst of the 20th century be recovered for this whisper from the Middle Ages was as little to be expected as that we should hear a horn from Elfinland blowing....' Child printed one version only of the ballad, but when Patrick Shuldham-Shaw went to the Shetlands to look for songs he was shown the following text that had appeared in the Shetland Times, written down from the recitation of Bruce Sutherland of Turf House, North Yell in 1865. The refrain was clearly derived from the Scandinavian original which runs... Skoven aarlig gron - yearly green's the wood. . . . Hvor hjorten han gaar aarlig Where the hart goes yearly 1. There lived a lady in yon haa, Scowan orla grona. Her name was Lady Lisa Bell Where gurtin grew for Norla 2. One day the King a-hunting went; They wounded the lady to the heart. 3. The King of the Fairies wi' his dart Wounded his lady to the heart. 4. So when the King came home at noon. He asked for Lady Lisa Bell. 5. His nobles unto him did say. My lady was wounded but noo she is dead 6. Now they have ta'en her life fra me. But her corpse they's never ha' 7. Now he have called his nobles aa To waltze her corpse into the haa 8. But when the Lords was faen asleep Her corpse out of the houses did sweep. 9. Now he's awa' to the wood, wood were. And there he's to sit till grown o'er wi' hair. 10. He had not sitten seven lang years Till a company to him drew near. 11. Some did ride and some did ging. He saw his lady them among. 12. There stood a haa upon yon hill. There went aa the ladies tilt. 13. He is laid him on his belly to swim. When he came it was a gray stone. 14. Now he's set him down ful wae. And he's taen out his pipes to play. 15. First he played the notes of noy. Then he played the notes of joy. 16. And then he played another reel That might a made a sick heart heal. 17. There came a boy out of the haa Ye're bidden to come in among us aa 18. The foremost man to him did say: What thou ha' for thy play ? 19. For my play I will thee tell; I'll ha' my Lady Lisa Bell. 20. Thy sister's son, that unworthy thing. Tomorrow is to be crowned King. 21. But thou's take her and thou's go hem. And thou shalt be king oe'r thy own. . |
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04 Jul 09 - 05:38 AM (#2671306) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jack Blandiver Thanks for that, Jim - several of those verses feature in the version recorded by Archie Fisher so maybe they're not so extraneous after all! As a for the Gabber Reel, did I hear once that this had something to do with blacksmiths? * Anyway, thanks for the kindly words, Lighter. Another version we recorded back in 2003 is replete with saga brass, faux xhoomi, & looping psychedelic ambience in direct homage to the Archie Fisher version. It concludes with an unedited field recording made in the stable of Howick Hall in Northumberland when I was after the original Victorian bells of the stable clock. No sooner had the chimes started than a rather snooty young girl came riding into the stable yard on her whinnying gelding, took one look at me standing there with my microphone and hurriedly rode off through the stable door slamming it behind her with deafening finality. As suitable a conclusion to any rendering King Orfeo as any I would think! Just uploaded this HERE The image is called Scowan Urla Grun; this is a printing block I made back in 1990 to my own design inspired by the imagery of the chorus & certain traditional themes. See it full size HERE. |
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04 Jul 09 - 07:54 AM (#2671353) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Jack as you suspected the tunefinder tunes look like the ones from the DT: King Orfeo Song Entry, with tunes: King Orfeo - Kity Anderson's tune midi and King Orfeo - John Stickle's tune midi. (Note that the lyrics given in the DT are not for either of the versions with tunes; John Stickle's lyrics are posted above and in the other thread I linked above. I'll try and get round to posting Kitty Anderson's version later - it's not dissimilar to the Child version in the DT). The tunes are substantially as given in Bronson, though in Bronson John Stickle's tune also gives a slightly different version for the 1st line of the last verse. Here's the full abc for both, with the lyrics. Bronson doesn't give aligned lyrics (except for that 5/4 line), so I've guessed in a few places on the scansion. (I do have the John Stickle recording on the old Topic Child Ballads record (vol4) and I could dig that out to check if anyone's worried about that. I don't have the Kitty Anderson version). (I'm also in a bit of a rush, so I haven't bothered too much about the exact modes in the abc.) Mick X:1 T:King Orfeo B:Bronson: The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads C: Sung by John Stickle, Baltasound, Unst Apr28 1947 S: Collected Shuldham-Shaw L:1/8 M:4/4 K:Gdor % Bronson gives mode as P pi4 (P/Ae/D intersection) "<("">)"F2|GFGB c<d c2| w:* Will ye come in-to our Ha' BG(FD) C3 w:Scow-an Earl_ grey B,|B,B,BG (GF) (G/F) w:Yes we'll come in-to your_ ha'_ D/|CB,CD F G3|] w:For yet-ter kan-gra nor-la. [M:5/4][L:1/8]"^Additional tune for last verse:"GF GB cd cd c2| w:Then they played the good old gab-ber reel, [M:4/4]BG(FD) C3|| w:Scow-an Earl_ grey X:2 T:King Orfeo B:Bronson: The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads C: Sung by Kitty Anderson, Shetland S: Collected Collinson, School of Scottish Studies, rec No. 1955/145/6 L:1/4 M:3/4 K:Ddor % Bronson give mode as a pi4 ending on V D|D/A/ A>G|A/A/ A2 w:Der lived a king in-to da aist [M:2/4][L:1/8](GF) DC|[M:3/4][L:1/4]D2 w:Scon_ner le groon D|D/D/ d>d|c/A/ HA> w:Der lived a la-dy in da wast G|[M:2/4][L:1/8]FF DF|[M:3/4][L:1/4]G HA|] w:What yor-ten han groon var-lee |
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04 Jul 09 - 01:07 PM (#2671507) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jack Blandiver Frankie Armstrong sings an Anglicised version by name of Young Orphy. Not sure if it featured on an earlier album but it features on the Songs of Witchcraft and Magic CD complied by the Museum of Witchraft in Boscastle. The chorus is rendered as Down along the valley / Where the green leaves they grow rarely. The sleeve note reveals that the ballad was extensively reconstructed by one Brian Pearson, and further - by listening to this CD you are participating in a magical act. |
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25 Apr 17 - 08:14 AM (#3852330) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Thompson Interesting to see a macaronic Danish/Scots-English. |
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25 Apr 17 - 01:24 PM (#3852386) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,Julia L Regarding the "Norn" language, one might consult with Gordon Bok who worked a long time translating his Play of Lady Odivere (the rest of the Great Selchie story). It is a stunning piece |
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25 Apr 17 - 06:06 PM (#3852428) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Gallus Moll I think I heard a news item within the last few months that a -- dictionary? of --- Norn? - -or something.... had been produced and was available in the/a ---Library? in -- Orkney? possibly for sale..? ---I recall being really interested at the time then -- - it slipped to the back of my mind and of course now I can't remember the details -- but perhaps someone else can?! Hope this misinformation leads someone to finding out the facts -- |
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25 Apr 17 - 06:36 PM (#3852434) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Allan Conn It could possibly be this Orcadian Dictionary going on-line that you meant. It isn't Norn though. Norn was the now extinct form of Norse that was spoken in the northern isles and Hebrides. Orcadian and Shetlandic are dialects of Scots which were influenced by the former Norn language. https://www.orkneydictionary.scot/dictionary/historical-perspective-2/ |
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26 Apr 17 - 12:45 PM (#3852560) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Gallus Moll Think I was only half listening (trying to do too many things at the same time) - perhaps that was it! Tho I vaguely thought they were speaking about a printed book that could be purchased -- - |
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26 Apr 17 - 01:39 PM (#3852565) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Jack Campin This on-line Norn dictionary seems to be bang up to date: http://nornlanguage.x10.mx/index.php?nynorn_dic |
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27 Apr 17 - 09:59 AM (#3852725) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Shimmering There are refrain (omkväde) lines reminiscent of Scowan ürla grün in some Scandinavian ballads. A couple that spring immediately to mind are: Herr Olof kommer hem / då skogen görs lövegrön (Sir Olof will come home when the forest grows leaf green), from Herr Olof och Älvorna (Sir Olof and the elves) Hon kommer väl igen / när skogen stånder löfgrön (She will come back when the forest is leaf green), from Hafsfrun (the Mermaid) Medan skogen han lövas (While the forest grows leafy), from Per Tyressons Döttrar i Vänge |
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30 Sep 21 - 09:08 AM (#4121426) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,MissRed HAve a listen: https://youtu.be/nBlbaIbyCgI |
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01 Oct 21 - 02:42 AM (#4121503) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: GUEST,ottery A bit of a digression from the main topic, but for people with an interest in the accent and dialect of Orkney, there's a nice page here containing clips from an interview with Peter Leith of Appiehouse, who was born in 1927. |
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01 Oct 21 - 03:47 PM (#4121589) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Megan L Ottery thank you Peter and his wife lived ower the hill from us many a time i listened to him as he made simmonds Ropes made from straw they had many uses from keeping the haystack on yer farm and no blawn ower the island and I've seen it used to stabilise a turf roof since straw was to scarce and valuable. |
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01 Oct 21 - 05:02 PM (#4121596) Subject: RE: Pronunciation of Gaelic/Norn in 'King Orfeo' From: Joe Offer I jump at the chance to introduce people to the singing of Emily Smith. Here's her recording: I've seen her twice in purely acoustic performances with her husband. I prefer her without electronic instruments. |
