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28 Oct 09 - 11:49 AM (#2754148) Subject: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy In English, there's loads of words which include the combinations of: 'ph' as in 'elephant', 'telephone' etc 'th' as in 'this', 'moth' etc 'sh' as in 'shop', 'fish' etc plus other combinations of consonants with th letter 'h' For native speakers, its easy to know how these are pronounced, but less easy for foreigners. I've heard several of these mispronunciations, 'uffolstery', 'shithed' more? |
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28 Oct 09 - 11:55 AM (#2754151) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST,Tunesmith Of course, the "nightmare" combination of letters for foreigners is "ough". |
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28 Oct 09 - 11:57 AM (#2754155) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rapparee TH as in "then" and "thorn" |
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28 Oct 09 - 12:15 PM (#2754172) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Ebbie This week a computer tech earnestly informed me that the "grap hics" capabilities of a certain operating system are better than that of another. And he is a native-born Amurrican. |
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28 Oct 09 - 12:20 PM (#2754175) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox This thistle. |
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28 Oct 09 - 12:23 PM (#2754178) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox The jury is still out on Dishevelled. I lived in Eltham (ell..tam)some posh folk called it Elth...am. Mind you, the genteel folk of Burpham seem always to put the ph together to make 'ff', while in devon Topsham as Top...sam or Top...sham seems to divide the populace equally. |
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28 Oct 09 - 01:28 PM (#2754220) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: MGM·Lion There are other combos which cause similar confusions, just to widen this discussion of anomalies of English spelling & pronunciation a bit. I have known several educated people who had never realised that 'misled' is the past tense of 'mislead' ['to lead astray'], and pronounced it something like 'my zuld']. And some word processors with obscenity checks refuse to print the name of the town Scunthorpe. (I am told that in the US graduates of the Notre Dame University have trouble with their CV's, as 'Dame' is held to be non-PC. Is that true or a folktale?) |
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28 Oct 09 - 01:50 PM (#2754233) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: jeffp I'm pretty sure that's a folktale. Notre Dame is pretty well known and respected. Of course, there's also the one in Baltimore. |
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28 Oct 09 - 01:55 PM (#2754240) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Leadfingers Reminds me of the sad story of the Young Lad who came to London to improve his Englis , particualrly all the words with different pronunciation and same spelling . He gave up and went home in despair when he saw , outside a Theatre in the West End " CATS !! Pronounced Success" |
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28 Oct 09 - 01:59 PM (#2754245) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST,TIA Of course, using impenetrable English phonetics, "fish" can be spelled "ghoti" think; cough, women, nation |
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28 Oct 09 - 02:05 PM (#2754255) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Spanish and some other Latin root languages have simplified ph words that come from the Greek; philosophy becomes filosophie, elephant is elefante, etc. Psaltery becomes Saltario, etc. In many German words, the h in th is silent, e. g., thaler is pronounced taler. Non-English speakers are stuck with learning native English usages of these words from friends and teachers- there are some rather variable rules, but they are not taught in ESL (English as a Second Language) courses. The origins of these words and their evolution are given in the complete Oxford English Dictionary, but most of us learn them by ear. Thorn, them, thee, come from Old English, old German, Norse, etc.; many non-English will silence the h, thus torn, tem (dem), tee- As the King said. "'Tis a puzzlement" ("The King and I"). Proper names of people and places are 'a whole nother ball game'. |
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28 Oct 09 - 02:39 PM (#2754275) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rapparee I've never heard of the graduates of the University of Notre Dame du Lac (a/k/a "Notre Dame") being descriminated against because of PC. There are hundreds of "Notre Dame" high schools and colleges around the world -- 'twouldn't be sensible. The problem with English is that it isn't a "pure" language -- it contains words from languages from Andalusian to Zulu. This causes spell checkers (but not decent dictionaries) to have fits and it gets worse with job-related jargon, slang, and lingua fraca. "Just a skosh more makli, mama-san, and I'll deedee out of here" as we used to say in Korea. |
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28 Oct 09 - 02:55 PM (#2754283) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: MGM·Lion I didn't say Notre-Dame graduates were discriminated against by people: only by word-processors programmed to block non-pc language — including the word "dame". But, as I said, I always suspected this of being a sort of Urban Myth. |
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28 Oct 09 - 03:13 PM (#2754294) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox Ghoti can never ever be fish. Gh would have to be at the end , rather than the beginning, and ti would have to be medial. TYhis that famoue irishman GB Shaw's joke.....he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones. Carol Chomsky declared english orthography to be just about the optimum means of deriving meaning ( rather than sound) from writing. |Losing the 'history' of the word by systemysing spelling is dealt with in the following cautionary tale A proposed plan to gradually update the way to spell things in english. In Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling,so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y"and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais"ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld |
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28 Oct 09 - 03:30 PM (#2754305) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: HuwG Underneath a hanging bough, sat a man with a hacking cough. |
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28 Oct 09 - 03:37 PM (#2754308) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Joe Offer So, is that "Noter Daaame" or "Notruh Dom"?? -Joe- |
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28 Oct 09 - 03:50 PM (#2754313) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: McGrath of Harlow More consonents to every vowel is what we need, as in Polish, Klingon, and my name. |
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28 Oct 09 - 04:07 PM (#2754323) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) I'm sure that 'dame' would not be blocked by spell-checkers in the UK; Dame Edith Evans and others would lose the 'onorific. In any case, these systems can be programmed to add or delete a particular word. Joe, I have heard 'Notruh Dom' only from those trying to be pedantic. Maybe different back East, I dunno. |
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28 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM (#2754367) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rowan I do like GB Shaw's joke.....he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones. It's not yet the end of October but I wondered if Santa really uses hohophones. I have heard 'Notruh Dom' only from those trying to be pedantic. Maybe different back East, I dunno. Before I learned American pronunciation, the only experience I had with this name was on the outsides of various churches in Melbourne, where it was pronounced the way we were taught in French class; Notr Darm. But I guess we're almost as far "back East" as you can go. And I'd written this before I realised that many from the US pronounce "Dom" the way we'd pronounce "Darm"; "Dom" has a very short "o" here. Cheers, Rowan |
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28 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM (#2754371) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bonzo3legs Why is the letter L in words pronounced as a W by the "W People" - footbaw, horribaw etc? I wonder how they would pronounce trawler |
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28 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM (#2754516) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox Thank you Rowan, that'll teach me to proof read. Mind you, Im quite proud ti have invented ( albeit inadvertently) Santa's patent communication device. |
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28 Oct 09 - 09:31 PM (#2754540) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rapparee The correct name of the dominant university in South Bend, Indiana, is pronounced as the French would -- the founder, after all, was of French extraction and the religious order there is abbreviated CSC -- for "Congregation de la Sacre Coeur" or however the French spell it. But it's bastardized into "The University of Notre Dame du Lac", and there is an ongoing discussion among pedants there that it SHOULD be "des Lacs" since there are TWO lakes and not one and so...and so I ignore it and have another beer. But, of course, everyone just calls it "ND" or "Noter Dame". |
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29 Oct 09 - 01:45 AM (#2754616) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Gurney A couple of years ago, a member posted a treatise on the uses of 'ough' in English words. It was by a Dutch scholar, I think! I'm sure Tunesmith among others would find it interesting, if anyone can remember the thread header. |
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29 Oct 09 - 04:20 AM (#2754643) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Joe Offer In our church choir, we've had a problem with multiple sibilants at the end of phrases, and it sounds like a snakes' beer party, or something. I've started replacing final "s" sounds with "th," so now I know I'm not the guilty one. Said Joe, lithpingly |
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29 Oct 09 - 06:05 AM (#2754681) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: JohnInKansas Phenolphthalein is the acid test. John |
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29 Oct 09 - 06:33 AM (#2754687) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: DMcG Is that also a cunning joke, since it is used for testing whether things are acidic? |
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29 Oct 09 - 07:05 AM (#2754704) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bryn Pugh As far as I am aware, Feenolf thaleen (NB - 'eth', not 'thorn' )is used, in volumetric analysis, to determine the alkalinity, rather than the acidity, of a material in solution ? I am led to believe by my daughter (a qualified Chemist) that Feenolf thaleen is a jet-propelled shit-quick (laxative). |
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29 Oct 09 - 08:08 AM (#2754725) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: DMcG "As far as I am aware, Feenolf thaleen ..." I would have gone for Fee-nol-thar-lin, myself, but that lin/leen could easily be a Northern UK accent thingy. You are right about the alkalinity, but no-one talks about something being the alkaline test! |
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29 Oct 09 - 08:32 AM (#2754733) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy Similar to 'misled' aka 'mizzled' above, there's the past participle [who thinks up these convoluted names in grammar?] of the verb, 'to mope'. 'Moped' ? [aka Lambretta?] |
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29 Oct 09 - 08:35 AM (#2754736) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bryn Pugh Then there is the lung disease - PHTHISIS. |
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29 Oct 09 - 08:51 AM (#2754744) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy Maybe urban leg end that the painter Turner would sometimes spell his name as 'Ptholognyrrh'! |
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29 Oct 09 - 08:54 AM (#2754746) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mrrzy An anonymous pronunciation poem, only slightly drifty... try reading this one out loud! I take it you already know Of tough and bough and cough and dough? Others may stumble, but not you, On hiccough, thorough, lough and through? Well done! And now you wish, perhaps, To learn of less familiar traps? Beware of heard, a dreadful word That looks like beard and and sounds like bird, And dead: it's said like bed, not bead -- For goodness sake don't call it 'deed'! Watch out for meat and great and threat (They rhyme with suite and straight and debt). A moth is not a moth in mother, Nor both in bother, broth in brother, And here is not a match for there Nor dear and fear for bear and pear; And then there's dose and rose and lose -- Just look them up -- and goose and choose, And cork and work and card and ward, And font and front and word and sword, And do and go and thwart and cart -- Come, come, I've hardly made a start! A dreadful language? Man alive! I'd mastered it when I was five! |
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29 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM (#2754755) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bryn Pugh In "standard English", the diphthong (!) "ph" is pronounced as in "f" : the diphthong "sh" as in "shit" - sorry - couldn't resist that one ; and "th" as either 'eth' or 'thorn', as the case might be. I think I have read, somewhere, that in Classical Greek (Katharevousa) it is believed that "ph" might have been pronounced "puh huh" ; "sh" as "suh huh" ; and "th" as "tuh huh". This, I think, might beg the question as to why Greek has one character for "ph" (phi) ; one for "th" (theta). Can anyone enlighten me further, please ? |
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29 Oct 09 - 10:02 AM (#2754780) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy '...................phings ain't wot dey used to be.....?' |
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29 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM (#2754784) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST, Sminky In addition to the 'soft' th as in thin (thorn) and the 'hard' th as in then (eth) there is also th as in weather which is neither one nor t'other. Phlegm - now there's a proper word ;-} |
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29 Oct 09 - 10:07 AM (#2754785) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox Bryn, they are digraphs, not dipththongs, which are compound vowels. |
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29 Oct 09 - 10:21 AM (#2754789) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Uncle_DaveO Sminky, I don't hear a difference between the "th" in "then" and the "th" in "weather". This is in Midwest General American. It may be different in the dialect you speak. Dave Oesterreich |
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29 Oct 09 - 10:53 AM (#2754812) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bryn Pugh This is true, TtC. Who led the Pedants' Revolt ? Which Tyler. |
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29 Oct 09 - 11:06 AM (#2754825) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy LOL!! |
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29 Oct 09 - 11:58 AM (#2754883) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST, Sminky I don't hear a difference between the "th" in "then" and the "th" in "weather". Dave - if you say then slowly, you'll notice you're actually saying dthen (notice that your tongue starts behind your top front teeth). It's different from thin where the tongue starts between the front teeth. However you don't pronounce it weadther (or I presume you don't!). Maybe it's me 8-) |
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29 Oct 09 - 01:05 PM (#2754938) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) tin tan wedder 'y not? |
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29 Oct 09 - 02:58 PM (#2755038) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Uncle_DaveO Sminky, after much cogitation and trial-muttering to myself, I have to deny (as to myself, at least) your premise as to "dthen". There are probably a very few circumstances in which that little turn before "th" occurs, but far from normally. After a little silence, and with a fresh breath at the beginning of a new sentence, there is sometimes a tiny puff of air preceding "then" to begin a sentence, which might answer to your "d". Sometimes, I say. I haven't identified any other circumstances, although there may be some. Dave Oesterreich |
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30 Oct 09 - 05:33 AM (#2755492) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST, Sminky Dave - the 'voiced dental fricative' (hard) th usually occurs at the start of a word (the, this, that, then). The 'voiceless dental fricative' (soft) th can occur at the start (thick, thin) or end (myth, path), or very occasionally middle (methinks). I still maintain that the th in eg weather, father is different from both. Maybe. |
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30 Oct 09 - 05:52 AM (#2755500) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Jos I've not heard 'misled' pronounced 'mizzled', but I have noticed 'implement' becoming 'impulment' and 'diplomat' turning into 'dipplemat' - and I blame George W. B. for the ubiquitous 'nucular'. |
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30 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM (#2755559) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bonzo3legs And thanks to The Bill, we now have burgawry instead of burglary! I had an interesting conversation with someone who does voiceovers and talking book recordings, who said that "natural English" is starting to be used for that formerly known as received pronounciation, or what the oiks and lefty pretend working class as "posh" |
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30 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM (#2756241) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tootler some word processors with obscenity checks refuse to print the name of the town Scunthorpe. This reminded me of a website devoted to British Birds a few years back being blocked by an obscenity checker because it had a page devoted to Tits - Blue Tit, Coal Tit and - horror of horrors - Great Tit! |
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30 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM (#2756253) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) There is the American robin (a thrush) whose name is Turdus migratorius. I have used several spell-checkers and have never seen proper names or technical words of this kind blocked. Spelling questioned, but not blocked. I doubt that such exist although a school, etc., may program them to do so. |
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31 Oct 09 - 08:33 AM (#2756501) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bonzo3legs We wil be dining in an Argentine restaurant this evening, where thank goodness they speak Spanish with a BA accent which is perfectly understandable - no hideous th th th th th!!! |
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31 Oct 09 - 08:45 AM (#2756511) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: melodeonboy "he wanted to simplify English orthography, little realising that its morpho phonemic nature allow us to see the difference between our many hohophones." Am I to assume, TtC, that a hohophone is a homophone with a sense of humour? :) |
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31 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM (#2756522) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Will Fly "Hallo, my name's Jack Chumley", said Jack Cholmondeley. "And mine's James Fanshaw", said James Featherstonehaugh. Good old English! |
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31 Oct 09 - 02:06 PM (#2756785) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: MGM·Lion It is said that Jean Harlow once addressed Margot Asquith as "Mar-gott". 'No dear,' she replied; 'the t is silent — as in Harlow.' |
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31 Oct 09 - 08:07 PM (#2757072) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy ............& the festive season fast approaching, there'll be more renditions of strangulated Latin carollers 'In eggshells is day-o [daylight come & me wan' go home!!]'!!? |
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01 Nov 09 - 04:14 PM (#2757455) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: GUEST,AndyC If you study Welsh you'll find that 'ph' and 'th' are still regarded as single characters in their own right, like in the original Greek. As are 'll' and 'rh' for example. So 'Rhyl' is a three-letter word, not four letters, and you would look it up under 'Rh' in the dictionary, not under 'R'. 'Th' in Welsh is only ever 'soft' (as in 'think') rather than as in 'this'. Have you noticed as well that a lot of people will naturally say 'dd' rather than 'th' when it's in the middle of a word - for example 'brudder' not 'brother'. |
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01 Nov 09 - 08:18 PM (#2757628) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie There are two main problems with English orthography. Firstly, that various spelling systems have been adopted over the centuries, without ever superceding their predecessors, and secondly, that English pronunciation has changed dramatically since it became (more or less) standardised. As a result, although night may still be pronounced as written (mainly in Scotland), the gh has vanished completely in most the Anglophone world, while the i has turned into ai. Change, of course continues, most noticably in London, where are white and wait are homophones, though still with different initial consonants and vowels in much of the rest of the English speaking world. In fact, one of the biggest problems with spelling reform is that it will never do more than reflect a snapshot of one local dialect at a limited point in time, unless we take a similar attitude to Welsh and do away with standardised spelling. Is "I am" in Welsh "dach i" "dech i" "dych i" or "ydych i"? (rhetorical question). The fact that there was no universal standard orthography in the 16th century means that for a linguist, the variant spelling used by Mary Stuart and Elizabeth Tudor in their letters can tell us a lot about the development of the different varieties of English at that time. |
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02 Nov 09 - 06:12 PM (#2758280) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Steve Shaw Man: Doctor, I'm having real trouble pronouncing my Fs and THs! Doctor: You can't say fairer than that then! |
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03 Nov 09 - 04:39 PM (#2758919) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bonzo3legs The oiks pronounce th as f in parts of London! In Croydon, trawler - a difficult one for W people, would be pronounced trawlar! |
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03 Nov 09 - 06:43 PM (#2758996) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie My apolgies. "I am" in Welsh is of course "dw i". I meant "you are". |
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03 Nov 09 - 07:42 PM (#2759030) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Slag Name your Shibboleth (or that Sibboleth?). I've always liked phthalo blue (or bleu) as a color but someone above already beat mi two the punch wif phenolphthalein whitch is the chemical carrier for the stayne. The fox walks on rocks, Hunting Aux as does the soaring hawks. copyright 2002 I was surprised when I met Father Nick Meletis in Bakersfield California and heard the Greek language spoken correctly for the first time. Wow! the "p" in psi is actually pronounced as are all the consonants, contrary to popular English cum American pronunciations. The fact that English language is so adept at picking up bits of other languages on a wholesale basis means that it also picks up some of the rules of foreign grammar and spelling. Have you ever heard the Pidgin (or is that "piggon"?) English? Now THERE is a wonder to behold! |
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03 Nov 09 - 09:32 PM (#2759086) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Uncle_DaveO Yes, "pidgen" is the correct spelling. But which pidgin English? There are a number of them, reflecting the area in which they arose. And "pidgin" doesn't necessarily call for the word "English". There are pidgins from German, French, and on and on. Dave Oesterreich |
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04 Nov 09 - 06:03 AM (#2759246) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: catspaw49 Personally, I don't have time for this phuckin' shit......... Spaw |
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04 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM (#2759313) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Tug the Cox A pidgin is a mixture of two or more languages,developed to aid communication. It is therefore not a first language or a mother tongue. When a pidgin becomes indigenous to community and becomes a mother tongue it is known as a creole or patois.....and may contribute to subsequent pidgins. |
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04 Nov 09 - 09:50 AM (#2759379) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Uncle_DaveO I'm embarrassed. I said, Yes, "pidgen" is the correct spelling. That's wrong. Should be "pidgin". And I didn't even follow my own erroneous spelling in the rest of my post! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Dave Oesterreich |
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04 Nov 09 - 01:44 PM (#2759544) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Dave- Never apologize. Repeat and repeat and beat your opponent down (From my MS, "The Successful Politician"). Moreover, the Oxford English Dictionary gives both spellings in bold type. In other words, pigeon is also correct but less popular. |
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04 Nov 09 - 06:49 PM (#2759758) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rowan Are messages in pidgin ever sent by pigeon post? |
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04 Nov 09 - 10:57 PM (#2759864) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Slag Pigeon, coo coo cool! |
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05 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM (#2760148) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy Also 'ch' Loch ['Lotch'?] |
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05 Nov 09 - 11:00 AM (#2760149) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy ............'gh' as in 'Lough' 'Luff'? 'Louge'? |
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05 Nov 09 - 01:18 PM (#2760246) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hough- pronounced 'huff' by a friend. Lough- loch, but as a surname, loch, lowe, loff, law and etc. |
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05 Nov 09 - 01:20 PM (#2760247) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) An Edinburgh banker of distant relation, named Gough, pronounced the name 'Gow'. |
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05 Nov 09 - 02:12 PM (#2760275) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bill D The wind was rough And cold and blough. She kept her hands Inside her mough. =============================================================== "Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say Shibboleth.' If anyone said, 'Sibboleth', because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion." – Judges 12:5-6, NJB |
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05 Nov 09 - 05:44 PM (#2760417) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Slag Thanks Bill_D. I knew someone (probably you) would pick up on the reference. This is a discussion that has been going on for a long, long time; sometimes with a more serious consequence. |
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05 Nov 09 - 08:07 PM (#2760505) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Steve Shaw If anyone said "Sibboleth" they probably killed him because they thought he was Basil Fawlty. |
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05 Nov 09 - 08:23 PM (#2760515) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bill D It's interesting..(at least I thought so)... that I learned about Sibboleth from Ripley's Believe it or Not about 1953... |
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05 Nov 09 - 09:51 PM (#2760546) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Slag Thilly Thavage! |
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06 Nov 09 - 05:50 AM (#2760672) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bryn Pugh The study of Ethics might help. Better than Suthics, or Middlethics. Then there's Edward Windsor, Earl of Wethics. I'll get me Barbour . . . |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:44 AM (#2760739) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Ed T "Firthst, I am happy. For I am to marry the fair Melitha. Then, I am furiouth. Becauthe I dethpise "THE THHHHCARLET PU-PU-PUMPERNICKEL!!!" "Thufferin' Thuccotash!" "I tawt I taw a Tweety Bird!" From Sylvester the cat cartoon (Tweetie) |
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06 Nov 09 - 07:51 AM (#2760743) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Ed T I left my truck in Tuktoyaktuk |
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06 Nov 09 - 10:05 AM (#2760845) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy ........high on a hill, it calls to me! |
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06 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM (#2760873) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Nigel Parsons Look on the bright side. In Wales we have words starting with 'ngh' |
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06 Nov 09 - 12:50 PM (#2760956) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bill D "..words starting with 'ngh'." ...with hard to pronounce stuff in the middle. |
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06 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM (#2761007) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie "..words starting with 'ngh'." but only because they've been modified by the previous word, and the hard to pronounce stuff in the middle is only is only hard to pronounce if you try to pronounce it in English. |
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07 Nov 09 - 08:38 AM (#2761457) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bonzo3legs The ruination of the English language by working class oiks is being totally ignored. |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:42 AM (#2761976) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy 'ruination' anagramatised gives 'urination'!! |
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08 Nov 09 - 11:24 AM (#2762123) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie Somebody's taking the piss! |
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08 Nov 09 - 02:09 PM (#2762233) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: chazkratz Ai'm geting uh hedeik--meibi ai'v gat uh bluhdklought. Note: How can one type phonetically without a schwa? Or a thorn, for that matter? And do semanticists pronounce the th in thorn voiced or unvoiced? And where are the Snowdens of yesteryear? Charles |
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08 Nov 09 - 05:29 PM (#2762354) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie And you can't write my name without a yogh! |
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09 Nov 09 - 06:28 AM (#2762615) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy MacKen3ie? |
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09 Nov 09 - 06:31 AM (#2762618) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie Close, John |
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09 Nov 09 - 06:42 AM (#2762621) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogh |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:20 AM (#2762771) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie Of course, Tom Lehrer got it wrong. The 3 is not silent. |
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09 Nov 09 - 10:26 AM (#2762774) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Mr Happy .............as in the fatuous US TV prog; 'Numb3rs' - more dumbing down? |
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09 Nov 09 - 11:27 AM (#2762805) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Bill D MacKenȝie (alt-541) |
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09 Nov 09 - 11:36 AM (#2762812) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Dave MacKenzie Not on my keyboard. I get ¡ê |
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09 Nov 09 - 04:41 PM (#2763020) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Ed T phuck, those typos |
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09 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM (#2763068) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Penny S. Nothing to do with oiks, that f & v for unvoiced and voiced th. Goes back to the Dark Ages. A village called Finglesham (shwa in ham) is actually derived from "thengel" which was a word for some sort of nobility. So someone told the scribes a th word with an f in it. Also oik is an odd word - no-one seems to know the origin. I have a hypothesis though, that it was coined by public school classicists in the RAF from the Spartan word perioikoi (sp?) which meant the non-fighting allies around the city, on whose work the Spartan elite depended. The meaning and the attitude are the same, but the word has been shortened inappropriately - peri would better fit than the oik component which meant the central household. Using the word in contempt of others is not fitting unless you are of a trained elite like the Spartans or the Few. Penny |
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09 Nov 09 - 08:40 PM (#2763154) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Q (Frank Staplin) Oick, oik, hoick, oickman, a deprecatory schoolboy term for a student at another school, by extension an obnoxious person, a labourer or other low-class individual, a 'clot,' doesn't appear in print before 1925 (Oxford English Dictionary). Dict. Bootham Slang 1925. |
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09 Nov 09 - 09:16 PM (#2763162) Subject: RE: BS: Pronunciation of ph, th, sh words From: Rowan OIC (pronounced the same as "oik" or "oick") is also the acronym of Officer in Charge, the official title of those in charge of Australian Antarctic bases until a decade or so ago; the OIC's donga (residence) was known as "The Oikery", partly for its euphonics and probably because of the research on penguin rookeries. But now such OICs are called (officially) Station Leaders. Cheers, Rowan |