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03 Jan 10 - 09:34 AM (#2802095) Subject: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean Blasphemy is illegal in Ireland, and as of 1st January it could cost you 25,000 euro. So if you live in The Republic, watch what you say and write, even on the internet. Anybody still not believe the amount power religion holds? This has been on the cards since last summer, and the purpose was to further focus an old law which had been in existence for a long time but left ambiguous, largely because in those days there effectively was only one faith in this country, and detailed definitions appear to have been deemed unnecessary. They have opted to clarify it rather than abolishing it. Well, it's clear now. Happy new year. When I drank my auld-lang-syne toast, I raised a silent glass to the founding fathers of the US Bill Of Rights. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/01/irish-atheists-challenge-blasphemy-l http://www.independent.ie/national-news/opponents-to-continue-fight-after-blasph http://blasphemy.ie/ |
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03 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM (#2802229) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Paul Burke Holy bejasus fuck! |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM (#2802250) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Jack Blandiver What about during sex? As it says in the Holy Mass: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Seriously - this is bad. |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:31 PM (#2802272) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Rapparee Well, if Jesus needs the money.... But I always kinda thought he could look out for himself. The Church, on the other hand.... |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:33 PM (#2802275) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean I can tell you, the government needs the money... |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:33 PM (#2802276) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Sandy Mc Lean Unbelievable! Blasphemy is supposedly against God, not anyone's religious belief. Even for that to hold water the state should be required to prove beyond doubt that God's exists. The dogma of religion is so diverse that it requires a fixed standard fair to all before judgment could be applied. This is just further proof to my personal belief that the world is being run by fools! |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:36 PM (#2802279) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean Can't argue with your last line, Sandy. The man who started that website apparently faces both the fine and having his home searched. Better make that Allegedly... Be interesting to see if this gets taken to the European Court of Human Rights. |
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03 Jan 10 - 01:59 PM (#2802300) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: The Sandman I blame Dev, he turned Ireland into a theocracy, and some say he was allegedly an English Spy. |
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03 Jan 10 - 02:01 PM (#2802301) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean But Dev's part of history, and this is Now. Or supposed to be... |
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03 Jan 10 - 03:08 PM (#2802353) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: gnu Surreal. |
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03 Jan 10 - 03:22 PM (#2802359) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: olddude I AM THANKFUL FOR THE BILL OF RIGHTS THE US CONSTITUTION SO THIS CANNOT HAPPEN. A DISGRACE I THINK FOR ANY GOV TO GET INTO RELIGIOUS LAWS |
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03 Jan 10 - 03:45 PM (#2802373) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Peter Laban Do you mean to imply there's no blasphemy laws on the books in the US? I don't think that's true at all. |
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03 Jan 10 - 03:50 PM (#2802376) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean Do they get enforced with heavy fines and house searches? |
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03 Jan 10 - 03:51 PM (#2802377) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: The Sandman In some countries, blasphemy is not a crime. In the United States of America, for example, a prosecution for blasphemy would violate the Constitution according to the decision in Joseph Burstyn, Inc v. Wilson. The United Kingdom abolished its laws in England and Wales against blasphemy in 2008. In Europe, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe has recommended that countries enact laws that protect the freedom of expression. Some countries, especially countries which have Islam as the state religion, regard blasphemy as a serious offence. Pakistan, for example, has legislation which makes execution a penalty for blasphemy. In place of prohibitions against blasphemy, or in addition to prohibitions against blasphemy, some countries have laws which give redress to anyone who feels insulted on account of his religion. These laws forbid hate speech, the vilification of religion, or "religious insult" guest Peter Laban,you are an American living in County Clare,sometimes I think you are reminiscent of a visitor from outer space |
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03 Jan 10 - 04:33 PM (#2802410) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Peter Laban If you think that, I seriously wonder who of us is from outer space my dear Flasheart. |
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03 Jan 10 - 04:56 PM (#2802432) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: olddude Freedom of speech is protected under the US Constitution. No we do not have blasphemy laws in the states. We also have a separation of church and state. That does not mean that organized groups don't have their political push, like tobacco and oil and insurance ... they sure do. And the politician court them for their vote, they sure do ... but no one is going to jail for cursing or getting fined for doing so ... unless they are trying to create a public disturbance somehow and were told to leave. Then it is not the cursing just the disorderly conduct. |
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03 Jan 10 - 05:06 PM (#2802441) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Smokey. This is sick, and conclusive proof that the church has way too much power. Ireland is in desperate need of a human rights movement. |
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03 Jan 10 - 05:17 PM (#2802456) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Peter Laban Ok, fair enough. I was under the impression blasphemy laws were still on the books at least in some states of the US, even though they are not usually enforced. My response to the Soldier above would have been clearer if the quote : you are an American living in County Clare had gone in properly as I intended. Half of that statement originates in the Good Soldier's imagination. Never mind, it's not worth going on about. |
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03 Jan 10 - 05:30 PM (#2802463) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: olddude It is very sad and very destructive for any government to engage in laws that are religious based. It becomes too open to abuse. Then it is who's religion who's belief is enforced. I love Ireland too much to see things like this happen, very sad to hear |
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03 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM (#2802469) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean People here are in far less of a frame of mind these days to knuckle under to any authority, religious or political. In addition to other disillusionments and betrayals, we have also been landed in a royal economic mess from banks' mishandling of funds and bad credit, had one Taoiseach removed from office for dubious financial practices, and now the ordinary taxpayer is picking up the tab for others' greed, dishonesty and ineptitude. Given the national mood, I'd really like to see what happens if they try to persecute for blasphemy and pick up 25k for so doing. That website deliberately published "offensive" quotes as a challenge to this new law. We are part of Europe, and therefore have recourse to the European Court of Human Rights, about which Wiki says: Any decision of the Court is binding on the member states and must be complied with, except if it consists of an advisory opinion. It is the role of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe to supervise the execution of Court judgments. This body cannot force states to comply, and the ultimate sanction for non-compliance is expulsion from the Council of Europe. I read this as meaning they can't make the government rescind this legislation, but they could kick us out of Europe for enforcing it if the ECHR rules against it. Haven't researched this beyond a quick web-glance, but if my interpretation is correct... fasten your seatbelts... |
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03 Jan 10 - 06:10 PM (#2802495) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: The Sandman Peter Laban, what is this Lord Flasheart rubbish? you need to check your facts before you make posts that show that you are not very well informed. " Ok, fair enough. I was under the impression blasphemy laws were still on the books at least in some states of the US, even though they are not usually enforced" quote P Laban. Kindly stop adressing me with childish names. I understand that you must be upset by Kitty Hayes death, but please give this nonsense a break |
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03 Jan 10 - 06:18 PM (#2802501) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Smokey. I don't know why they don't just bring back Torquemada and stop pussyfooting around. Maybe they're hoping that with the inevitable backlash, people's attention will be diverted from Ireland's more serious problems with the church. |
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03 Jan 10 - 06:25 PM (#2802509) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: gnu Smokey... smoke and mirrors game... could be. |
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03 Jan 10 - 06:45 PM (#2802528) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Bonnie Shaljean:".........I raised a SILENT glass to the founding fathers of the US Bill Of Rights. " We have to do that, too.....They want 'liberals' to turn you in, now!!!! |
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03 Jan 10 - 07:32 PM (#2802554) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: McGrath of Harlow What they've done is to redefine "blasphemy" so that rather than being "an offence to God", it's "publishing or uttering matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion, thereby intentionally causing outrage among a substantial number of adherents of that religion, with some defences permitted". I would suspect that "some defences" will be sufficient to defend reasonable free speech in this field of discourse. It seems right to me that there should be limits on our right to be grossly abusive or insulting to our fellows human beings. |
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03 Jan 10 - 07:59 PM (#2802565) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: olddude Sounds like it may relate to our hate laws, freedom of speech would not allow someone to stand outside of a Temple with a Nazi sign yelling insults ... if that is the spirit of it then I feel a bit better. |
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03 Jan 10 - 08:07 PM (#2802569) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,999 Bloody good thing Sinead said what she did when she did, huh? |
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03 Jan 10 - 08:42 PM (#2802584) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean > if that is the spirit of it then I feel a bit better The thing is, I don't think we really know what the spirit of it is, because the new incarnation of this law hasn't yet been put to the test. I doubt that it will get carried to silly extremes, but "I doubt" doesn't reassure me. The trouble with having speech or "utterance" legally restricted is that it empowers the authorities to use it when they need to, for whatever reasons they need to. Where do they draw the line? Anywhere they want to, basically, and that's what makes me nervous. The problem is not whether they would, but Because They Can. What about satire? Or simply the personal opinions of those who do not believe in religions? It doesn't have to be shouted hate-slogans in order to be actionable. Tonight, on another website, a friend put up a YouTube link to something that was very funny, and HARMLESS, but could certainly be interpreted as sacrilegious. He's now taken it down. Whether or not he would have been prosecuted, that is intimidation. He censored himself, voluntarily, because he didn't feel safe otherwise. How Orwellian is that? |
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03 Jan 10 - 08:50 PM (#2802590) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,999 I cannot see any way the law will stand up to a challenge in court. It will come down to proving the existence of ANY God/god anywhere in the universe, and there there be dragons. |
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03 Jan 10 - 08:57 PM (#2802595) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,999 I expect that the law as given would also protect followers of Satanism (or whatever the hell it's called). However, Ireland is NOT ALONE! 25 Crazy Laws From Around the World by lanne in Law, August 12, 2007 We have all heard of some pretty silly laws. Here are twenty-five of the craziest I have ever heard of. (With the exception of #25, I think it is an unwritten law everywhere…) In Bozeman, Montana, a law prohibits all sexual activity from the front yard of a home after sundown. In Salt Lake County, Utah, it's illegal to walk down the street carrying a violin in a paper bag. In San Francisco, it's illegal to pile horse manure more than six feet high on a street corner. In Devon, Texas, it is against the law to make furniture while you are nude. In Oklahoma, you can be arrested for making ugly faces at a dog. ( What if it's an ugly dog…?) In California it is illegal for a vehicle without a driver to exceed 60 miles per hour. In Florida men seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown can be fined. In South Carolina it is legal to beat your wife on the court house steps on Sundays. In Tennessee, you are breaking the law if you drive while sleeping… In New York, the penalty for jumping off a building is: Death. ( Go figure…) In Danville, Pennsylvania, all fire hydrants must be checked one hour before all fires. In Pennsylvania, it's against the law to tie a dollar bill on a string on the ground and pull it away when someone tries to pick it up. In New York City, it's illegal for a restaurant to call a sandwich a "corned beef sandwich" if it's made with white bread and mayonnaise. ( I agree 100%! ) In California it is illegal to set a mouse trap without a hunting license. In France, it is against the law to sell an "E.T" doll. They have a law forbidding the sale of dolls that do not have human faces. In Athens, Greece, a driver's license can be taken away if the driver is thought to be either "poorly dressed" or "unbathed" In Calgary Alberta, there is still a by-law that requires businesses within the city to provide rails for tying up horses. In Wilbur, Washington, it is illegal to ride an ugly horse. ( but can you make faces at him? ) In Louisiana, biting someone with your natural teeth is considered "simple assault," but biting someone with your dentures is "aggravated assault." In the state of Washington, it is illegal to have sex with a virgin under any circumstances. (Including the wedding night.) In Switzerland, it is illegal for a man to relieve himself while standing up after 10pm.( even with the light on? ) In Florida, it is illegal to fart in a public place after 6 P.M. on Thursdays. In Massachusetts, it is illegal to go to bed without first having a bath. (However, another law prohibits bathing on Sunday) In Jidda, Saudi Arabia, women were banned from using hotel swimming pools in 1979. In Samoa, it's a crime to forget your own wife's birthday… Tha-tha-that's all folks! |
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03 Jan 10 - 09:15 PM (#2802601) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Rapparee Yeah, and in Pocatello, Idaho it was against the law not to smile. Like a lot of the other silliness quoted, that's part of history. |
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03 Jan 10 - 09:21 PM (#2802605) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice The one about Bozeman is not true. |
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03 Jan 10 - 09:37 PM (#2802608) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,999 OK, Alice. BUT, the one about Calgary is. Anyway, I wonder now what will happen when some organized religion or other says bad stuff about another organized religion. Will the $45,000 fine still apply? What about religions that have multiple gods? Will the fine apply on a god by god basis. That is, will the fine end up being multiples of $45,000? How expensive are drugs in Ireland?, because the people who want to institute this mess seem to be using lots of them. |
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03 Jan 10 - 09:46 PM (#2802611) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice What do they do about people watching comedy that pokes fun at religion? If you watch an old video of Father Guido Sarducci (classic Saturday Night Live), will you get busted if you laugh? Will DVD's, movies, recordings, etc. be banned? |
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03 Jan 10 - 09:49 PM (#2802613) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Jeri Ireland's gotta get itself some imams. |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:00 PM (#2802623) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice The Secret of Life, by Father Guido Sarducci (you have to pay for your sins) |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:13 PM (#2802634) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Rapparee Suppose I went to Ireland and stood in the middle of O'Connell Street and shouted that Lug was gay and Epona and Morrigan and Bridget were all actually just Dagda's concubines and HE was Angus's boy-toy. Would I be arrested for blasphemy the old Irish religion? |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:20 PM (#2802638) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice What if you shouted that the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was really just a crock of #$#%? |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:21 PM (#2802639) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Rapparee You wouldn't DARE!!!! |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:25 PM (#2802642) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice Maybe it will all turn out to be just a tempest in a Russell's Teapot. |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:32 PM (#2802647) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Clontarf83 Irish governments reputedly pass draconian legislation and never enforce it. I think the spirit of the legislation was to protect minorities from abuse. Using blanket legislation to accomplish this seems ham-fisted. |
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03 Jan 10 - 10:41 PM (#2802656) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: frogprince Somebody tell me how to consistently define the "grossly" in "grossly abusive or offensive" for legal purposes. |
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03 Jan 10 - 11:30 PM (#2802686) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,999 "`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.' `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.' " |
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04 Jan 10 - 12:27 AM (#2802711) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Guest 999:"In Bozeman, Montana, a law prohibits all sexual activity from the front yard of a home after sundown. " From: Alice Date: 03 Jan 10 - 09:21 PM The one about Bozeman is not true. That's what they all say....till they get caught...Be careful, now Alice!!!..Maybe ya' oughta' take it inside...besides, it's probably too cold this time of year!! |
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04 Jan 10 - 12:35 AM (#2802715) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice snow is too deep |
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04 Jan 10 - 12:43 AM (#2802716) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Alice:"snow is too deep " A good man is hard to find..... |
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04 Jan 10 - 12:44 AM (#2802719) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity ....or is it, a hard man is good to find??.. |
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04 Jan 10 - 12:46 AM (#2802721) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Alice Well, it didn't take us long to become very irreverent about a serious topic. Sorry, Bonnie, for taking this thread in a joking direction. I did read the article yesterday on cnn.com on this subject before I saw this thread. It really will be interesting to see how the challenge to this law proceeds. Alice |
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04 Jan 10 - 01:53 AM (#2802735) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Okay, Back to our regular programming...... |
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04 Jan 10 - 03:29 AM (#2802761) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: McGrath of Harlow It will come down to proving the existence of ANY God/god anywhere in the universe No it wouldn't. The existence or non-existence of God is completely irrelevant to this definition of blasphemy. |
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04 Jan 10 - 06:51 AM (#2802845) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Blasphemy illegal? Jesus.... |
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04 Jan 10 - 08:19 AM (#2802896) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: kendall Up uintil a few years ago it was illegal to swear on the streets of Portland Maine. It was also illegal to split wood on the sidewalk there. Maybe they went together? Cause and effect? |
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04 Jan 10 - 01:16 PM (#2803129) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: frogprince Actually the Portland law was passed because some of the sailors ran around town using language that would split wood. |
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04 Jan 10 - 06:03 PM (#2803451) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Seamus Kennedy Do you think that Tommy Tiernan's rant against Jews last year had anything to do with the passage of this law? |
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05 Jan 10 - 01:02 PM (#2804096) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Mrrzy Hey. I got a toy Idefix, which is a little dog doll - no human face - so I guess that one's not real anymore, but I wonder why it ever was... I mean, at least driving while sleeping makes sense to outlaw, at some level! |
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05 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM (#2804223) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean I agree that xenophobic ravings like Tiernan's anti-Jewish slime-slinging should be outlawed, but that's more racist bigotry than "blasphemy" as such. Both these elements can certainly co-exist in the same statement, but one is not necessarily the other. What worries me is not the muzzling of incitement-to-hatred rhetoric, but that this law casts such a wide and vague net that it's open to abuse. Never knowing whether you're on safe ground or not is intimidating - and there are no fear-police like the ones in your head. I think Clontarf83 has it pegged pretty accurately - but the problem is not being sure. Because no one is exactly telling you. |
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05 Jan 10 - 03:58 PM (#2804243) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: GUEST,bankley Irish atheists have published 25 quotes from people as varied as Mark Twain, Randy Newman, Georges Carlin, Jesus, Mohamed... in an attempt to be charged under the new law... and start the process for the repeal of it. Jesus got into trouble with the high priests for the blasphemous statement... "Hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting on the hand of power and coming in the clouds" Matthew 26:24 the 'coming in the clouds' part sound more like Carlin.. |
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05 Jan 10 - 07:59 PM (#2804424) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Q (Frank Staplin) 25 quotes- what would be the ruling on bobble-head Jesus? |
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05 Jan 10 - 09:12 PM (#2804465) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean I don't know, but don't get it wrong - it'll cost you 25,000. 25 quotes and a 25k fine: wonder if there's a meaning buried in that somewhere? |
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05 Jan 10 - 10:26 PM (#2804487) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: bankley 1 K per quotation sounds about right... they even included one knocking atheism... it'll be interesting |
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06 Jan 10 - 04:12 AM (#2804599) Subject: RE: BS: Blasphemy law in Ireland From: Bonnie Shaljean I'll bet it's more like 25k per quotation! But, again, who knows? |