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12 Mar 10 - 02:37 AM (#2862361) Subject: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Ministers rule out ban on BNP teachers Just heard on BBC Radio 4 this morning. How can they ban police and prison officers from being members of the British National Party and not teachers? Seems a bit lopsided. Will discuss this more tonight after work, when I have more time to formulate my thoughts. |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:21 AM (#2862409) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: gnomad The proportion of BNP members in the population at large is quite a small one, and given the expressed views of many teachers I would expect it to be even lower in their profession. A ban would, IMO, be a sledgehammer approach to a very small nut, as suggested in the linked article. One doesn't vanquish a mindset by simply banning it, its adherents will cling to it all the harder, and will generally try to play the 'martyrdom' card as well. If people hold views you despise the only effective remedy is to reason with them. I would be happy to support a ban on teachers propounding any and all political views to their pupils, but their private views are just that, private. I am slightly surprised to learn of the ban among police and prison officers, but given their roles in trying to control disorder I can see why it might be felt necessary. I could imagine sections of either of those professions getting heavily infiltrated, and it isn't a pretty scenario. |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:47 AM (#2862415) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller The problem is that, at the moment, the BNP is a legal political party. I think there is (or should be) enough control in schools to ensure that teachers with extremist views, be they political or religious, do not influence the children. If the kids come home and spout racist views, parents have a right to complain and, I'm sure, they will be taken seriously. For example, although I am an atheist, my daughter goes to a CofE school because it's the only one in the area. They are taught about religious diversity and the various world religions and I have no worries about her being filled with Christian doctrine - rather she is encouraged to form her own opinions. |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM (#2862419) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Nigel Parsons Why are police officers banned? They should be able to keep their political beliefs out of their policing duties, otherwise they are not suited to the job. Stopping them joining the BNP will not stop them holding racist views. During the miners strike there was no call (by the mine owners) to stop police being members of the Labour party, nor were there calls (by the NUM) to prevent police membership of the Conservative party. I see no problem with teachers being members of the BNP (or even the Labour party) as long as they leave their political beliefs at the school gates & do not try to indoctrinate our children. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:01 AM (#2862421) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Sam Hudson Well Tam, they are the party of the future, so I am glad they saw sense. Thanks for the add by the way. This country needs to get it's act together when you consider that the British People Put Last: £63.3 Million in One Week's Foreign Aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. tatter-flag-moneyLast week the Government handed out £63.3 million in foreign aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan — while both Tory and Labour parties have promised to make "far-reaching" domestic spending cuts in Britain. The latest example of how British people are always put last has come through a series of press releases on the Department for International Development's (DFID) website. These statements are always blacked out by the controlled media for fear of adverse public reaction, but can be viewed by clicking here. On 10 March, the DFID announced that it was giving £7.5 million to Somalia to provide food, clean water and medicine. At the same time, the DFID announced a further £5.8 million for a new programme "to help promote peace and stability in the region by supporting reconciliation and local peace building initiatives between clans and communities." The DFID's 2009–2010 aid programme in Somalia currently totals some £30.5 million. On 9 March, International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander launched a "new growth programme for Helmand to provide jobs and help for farmers and local businesses." The Helmand Growth Programme (HGP) will see around "800,000 people benefit from the project in which the Department for International Development is investing £28 million over three years" and will put "in place the foundations for continued growth and job creation." This grant will, the DFID said, reinforce "the commitment made by the Development Secretary in 2009 to invest £32 million in major infrastructure projects in Helmand, including a 50 km road linking the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah to the economic hub of Gereshk." On 8 March, the DFID announced that it would give £20 million to "help millions of people affected by conflict in Pakistan." By 2011, Pakistan will be the UK's second largest development programme worldwide, the DFID has proudly announced — despite Pakistan having a massive army which has nuclear weapons. The huge cash grants are put into perspective by the Government's failure to address the problem of eight million "economically inactive" people in Britain, and the paltry £12 million given for "deprived white working class areas" in October last year. Even that £12 million was divided up into 100 identified regions, which means that each area will get £120,000 — not even enough to buy a single new house. Only the British National Party will put the interests and rights of the British people first and says that these billions should be invested in fighting poverty and deprivation in Britain. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:04 AM (#2862422) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller What the fuck has that got to do with this thread? Go away you ugly fascist troll. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:14 AM (#2862429) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Ed Go away you ugly fascist troll. Surely he or she has as much right of response as you? I don't agree, but that's the point. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:15 AM (#2862430) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Nigel Parsons No sooner does one mention the BNP by name on a website than their apologists start bombarding you with propaganda. It's an unfortunate fact of life. Something similar happened recently with a thread about the release of John V***b**s one of the murderers of Ja**e B*****r. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM (#2862435) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "Surely he or she has as much right of response as you?" Perhaps you'd like to explain what this crap has to do with the question posed in this thread. And maybe, for once, you'd actually like to make an intelligent point, GUEST Ed, instead of your usual boring and negative inanities. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:27 AM (#2862436) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Ed I'm sorry Nigel, but I don't get your point. Could you elucidate please? I'm also curious as to why you refer to Jon Venables and James Bulger with ****? |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:44 AM (#2862444) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Ed To: theleveller My comment of "Surely he or she has as much right of response as you?" was a simple observation of the need for free speech. If you consider that a "boring and negative inanity" then so be it. I don't really care much about your views frankly. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM (#2862448) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "I don't really care much about your views frankly." Then stop responding to them. Simple, really! |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:56 AM (#2862451) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Ed I would do if you desisted from talking crap. |
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12 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM (#2862471) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Nigel Parsons I used those names with asterisks because to quote them in full, as you have, makes them searchable by anyone with internet access. This acts as an open invitation for any pressure groups to come here and post, whether they have any interest in music or not. My understanding is that the BS section of Mudcat is intended for non-music posts & discussions by the users of the site. Allowing it to act as a magnet for the bile which some persons choose to spread at any opportunity does nothing to bring the joy of music to anyone! That, of course, is just my understanding of the purposes of this site. |
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12 Mar 10 - 06:40 AM (#2862475) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: katlaughing Wow, only thirteen posts and the UKers are at it again. Brings to mind, from zero to sixty in ten seconds or whatever the old car adverts claimed. If you want to do something constructive why not buy a Folk Against Fascism t-shirt, mouse-pad, or other goods from Mudcatter Alice HERE. |
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12 Mar 10 - 07:01 AM (#2862486) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: John MacKenzie Like you say kat, everybody has an agenda, even you :) |
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12 Mar 10 - 07:06 AM (#2862488) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Emma B If you want to do something constructive check out the Folk against Fascism site which has merchandizing with the FaF logo and a gallery as well as blogs from British performers and other links and JOIN UP for newsletters about events in the UK Sorry kat, but while support from across the Atlantic is appreciated this IS a UK issue The BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY'S manifesto encourages its members to insinuate themselves into the folk and traditional customs of Britain. This involves the appropriation of British folk music and culture as a means of spreading its peculiar brand of racism and intolerance Folk Against Fascism WAS created to take a stand against the BNP's targeting of folk music, a stand against the appropriation of our culture. The BNP's Activists and Organisers Handbook encourages its members to get involved paricularly in the English folk scene |
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12 Mar 10 - 07:29 AM (#2862500) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Fred McCormick I have to say I'm in two minds over this. On the one hand I loathe fascism and find the idea of BNP trolls corrupting young minds creepy to put it mildly. On the other I believe in the right of everyone to pursue their occupation freely and irrespective of political belief, no matter how repugnant I find those beliefs to be. Perhaps the immediate answer would be for all teachers, right left or centre, to give an undertaking that they will not introduce their personal or political ideologies to the classroom. Any breach of such an undertaking should in my opinion be a sackable offence. Over and above that, I don't believe that institutional bans are the way to fight fascism. They make martyrs, they make sympathisers and they drive the bastards underground where they are much more difficult to deal with. The real answer for anyone wanting to fight fascism is to get out there and fight it. March. Demonstrate. Organise. Picket. Hand out leaflets. And above all explain to Joe Public the real nature of fascism and the real nature of the BNP and why they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole. Oh, and Sam. Go f**k yourself. |
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12 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM (#2862514) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Emma B John Dunford, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders has also expressed his mixed feelings over this situation "Schools have a strong, clear ethos of tolerance and understanding, and the vast majority of teachers and staff have no hidden agenda. Of course people with racist views should not be working with young people in schools. "However it is much less clear that there should be a blanket regulation on the issue. Existing protocols are already used in schools to deal with anyone whose behaviour is not acceptable, including disciplinary procedures and, if appropriate, dismissal. "It is right that teachers and others should be forbidden to promote in schools any contentious position: political, religious or discriminatory. However there is a need for open discussion of difficult topics. The aim should be genuinely to challenge young people to think for themselves and to form their own opinions rather than to promote a particular ideology." and, as Fred says... "above all explain to Joe Public the real nature of fascism and the real nature of the BNP" |
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12 Mar 10 - 08:23 AM (#2862544) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge I'm sure that any teacher teaching that children were sexual beings and were entitled to pursue sexual activity with persons (or animals) of any age including teachers would speedily be silenced. Illegal sexual activity ranges from the mildly disapproved (two people of 15 years and 11 months in a stable (for their age) relationship having normal sex) to the plainly nauseating (do I really need to draw a diagram?) - but any teaching of promotion of any of it would bring firm repercussions. And because of the risk people on the sex offenders' register are barred from teaching and other contact with children. Since pretty well everything the BNP say or believe is close to the outer limits of loathsome, and, indeed damaging to society, I would be strongly in favour of a total prohibition of the promotion of their doctrines (sort of like Clause 28) and indeed indeed thier presence in schools. Sam, as one would expect, wholly overlooks that the world needs to work for all, not only the western white. |
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12 Mar 10 - 08:27 AM (#2862547) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller It is fortunate that, from looking at the leading figures in the BNP, they aren't very bright. Many have convictions for racist and violent offences which would preclude them ever working with children or vulnerable adults. What's more, they don't seem to be able to keep their nasty views under wraps, so it's easy to identify them and take appropriate action. As I said above, and John Dusford empasises in Emma B's post, schools are well-able to deal with extremists of whatever view. |
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12 Mar 10 - 08:37 AM (#2862560) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,HoLo I always find it troubling when a democracy has so little faith in it's worth and the worth of it's citizens that it bans other political parties, no matter how odious they may be. If democracy cannot risk freedom, then we are sliding inexorably toward something far worse than the BNP..are we not ? |
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12 Mar 10 - 09:42 AM (#2862592) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Stu I can't see w*at the f**k's wrong w*th using a*ter*sks during normal e**ing convers*tion on the int*rnet and as f*r as I'm bl**din' concerned if I w*nt to use l*ttle f*cking st*rs everywhere that's my b*stard bus*ness and th*t's th*t. |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM (#2862606) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer I would be interested to know where the profits from Mudcatter Alice's merchandise are going. Folk Against Fascism is a non-profit organisation which uses the revenue from its merchandise for awareness-raising campaigns, and most recently to fund the production of the first FAF CD. If someone is using the FAF name to create bootleg merchandise and to profit personally from the project, I, as one of the FAF founders, would find it pretty cynical and loathesome. I do not know who Mudcatter Alice is, but I sincerely hope I have misinterpreted the situation. I also hope that Mudcatters will buy all their official FAF merchandise from www.folkagainstfacism.co.uk. Or use the designs there to make their own. But definitely NOT use the name to generate personal profit. Joan Crump |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM (#2862618) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Backwoodsman "If someone is using the FAF name to create bootleg merchandise and to profit personally from the project, I, as one of the FAF founders, would find it pretty cynical and loathesome." Might be worth checking if you have a legal claim against them, Joan. I guess you'd need to have somehow 'registered' the trademark in the USA - maybe RB can advise? |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:24 AM (#2862623) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer I have to say it's a bit shitty to see this fake stuff being promoted here on Mudcat. I mean, what is Mudcatter Alice doing for the cause, apart from lining her own pockets? |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:42 AM (#2862632) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: bubblyrat Leveller ...Perhaps you'd like to ahere to the ethos of your own manifesto and keep your own nasty views under wraps ?? They do seem a bit extreme ,under the circumstances----if you feel THAT strongly about the BNP,I am sure that your time would be better spent telling THEM,not us !! You could form a new party and call it "Fascists against Fascism",since YOUR views are so extreme and violently intolerant !! |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:49 AM (#2862637) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome Could she be sending profits to the organisation, Joan? I agree it is awful if not but can we hold judgement until we find out? Anyway... I, like others, was of two minds. As much as I loathe the BNP and all it stands for I cannot see how, realisticaly, teachers can be allowed to belong to the Labour or Conservative parties and yet banned from joing other, currently legal, organisations. If the BNP was to be outlawed then fair enough. But at the moment, as long as their members break no laws, they are doing nothing legaly wrong. However, having thought about it, I have come to realise that when in control of young minds we should not be looking at only the legal aspects. We should be looking at the moral ones. There are a number of organisations that I feel teachers should not be publicly promoting. The BNP is one. I have my own views on the others that I shall not bore you with but that then does give us another dilema. Who decides which organisations are moraly suitable? Legal and Illegal is cut and dried. But are we to have a morality clause as well? Would it be open to interpretation by the LEA's? How could we check if the potential teachers moral fibre is adequate? By saying membership of certain organisations were to be excluded from holding teaching posts would we just be driving them underground? I certainly would not like nasty Nick or any of his filthy crew anywhere near my grandson but I don't know how best to prevent it:-( Dilemas R us... DeG |
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12 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM (#2862639) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,David E. Being in the States I wouldn't pretend to understand the BNP but not allowing someone a job due to their political beliefs sure sounds like fascism to me. Actually it sounds like the college campus scene here, good luck getting a teaching job if you are NOT a card carrying liberal. Sorry England, beautiful country, hope you work it out, but from here, looks like bad news on both sides. David E. |
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12 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM (#2862655) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller Thanks for the kind advice bubblyrat. Apart from the part about engaging the BNP face to face, which I do at every opportunity, forgive me if I don't take it. If you find my views nasty, it just shows what side of the fence you are on - especially as you have in the past called me a communist, simply for expressing my republican leanings. Perhaps you'd like to take your own advice - but I'm not holding my breath :) |
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12 Mar 10 - 11:23 AM (#2862661) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,HiLo How does outlawing political parties or limiting the rights of certain citizens fight fascism ? I am puzzled by the democracy that puts these kinds of conditions on its citizens. I am also troubled by the venom of some of these posts..people censuring each other in the name of free speech..as they say " I have seen the enemy, and it is us". |
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12 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM (#2862672) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer Dave, I am aware of the actual donations (as opposed to merch purchases) we've had - none have come from America. Certainly no one has been in touch to tell us that they intend to sell merchandise branded with our name, which is downright rude, questions of intent or morality aside. Re the topic itself: there is a lot of casual racism and xenophobia by pupils, directed at other pupils, in schools. I find it hard to envisage a member of the BNP dealing effectively with such behaviour. They may not attempt to actively indoctrinate, but in certain situations, their own beliefs could be a barrier to effectively addressing a situation. While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher, somehow the thought of actual card-carrying racists having to deal with incidents of racial tension in schools does not fill me with optimism. |
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12 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM (#2862687) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "not allowing someone a job due to their political beliefs sure sounds like fascism to me" I don't think that the majority of people here are saying that. What we are saying is that we believe the system will prevent any teacher who sympathises with the BNP from expressing racist, homphobic or other unnacceptable views to children. What you have to realise is, like I said previously, a large number of prominent BNP members have convictions for racism and violence which would mean they can never work with children. Here are some of them: Tony Lecomber: top BNP official. Three years jail for nailbomb plot and three years for stabbing a Jewish teacher. 12 convictions in all. Kevin Scott: north east BNP organiser. Convictions for assault and threatening behaviour. Paul Harris: Barnsley BNP council candidate. Convicted of using threatening behaviour towards a pensioner. Jason Douglas: leading Greater London BNP candidate. Convicted football hooligan. Warren Bennett: BNP chief steward. Convicted football hooligan. Stephen Belshaw: Amber Valley BNP candidate. Convicted of attacking a Jewish solicitor. Colin Smith: south east London BNP organiser. 17 convictions including burglary, car theft, possession of drugs and assaulting a police officer. Darren Dobson: Oldham BNP council candidate.Convicted of racially aggravated assault. Frank Forte: Waltham Forest BNP member. Convicted of actual bodily harm. Paul Thompson: former Durham and Darlington BNP organiser.Convicted of criminal damage and for violence. Neil Keilty: BNP member. Convictions for possessing an offensive weapon and threatening behaviour. Gary Mitchell: former Sunderland BNP secretary.Convicted of racist attacks and possession of offensive weaponry. So when people think that we're just dealing here with a difference in ideology, bear in mind that this is what we are opposing. |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM (#2862697) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Well, David, try telling that to a Rastafarian whose religious beliefs involve the sacred sacrament of 'erb and see how well that goes down in getting him a school-teaching job in the USA. All societies cntrol some types of speech, and all societies control to some extent the political conduct of some people (try "all property is theft" as a defence to a charge of theft in the USA). All you have succeeded in telling us is that you have some sympathy for the racist fascist thugs who seek to instill hatred in young minds. Well done old chap. |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:21 PM (#2862699) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,HiLo Sorry..I was too quick for myself.. "While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher" !!!! nor should we, under any circumstances..how do we fight fascism with more fascism..democracy is not an ideology without risk..it is that abilty and willingness to risk diverse views that make it so precious, and you can't preserve it by constraining the right of free speech and free thought. If a teacher, or any employee, is not doing his or her job there ways to deal with that..depriving them of civil rights is NOT one of them ! |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:23 PM (#2862703) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie I don't see what the problem is here. We say everybody has a right to a view in a democracy, right? Well, in order to have a democracy, you first have to respect one, just one ground rule. That is democracy itself. As the BNP wish to stifle democracy, that makes their views null and void. So, rather than this wishy washy ignore them and they might go away, they have a right to exist in a democracy crap.... ban them and make membership an offence. We do it with terrorist organisations and nobody calls the government fascist for that, so ban these feral thugs too. They do not have a right to exist as a party and their members are at best misguided, at worst criminals. Their manifestos are criminal and full of the sort of crap we fought a war or two over. If you wish to form a government, then you must govern for the nation, not just a part of the population. As they have no wish to do this, their repugnant views and thug members need taking off the streets, preferably by the police. Please refrain from saying they have a the right to a view, becasue they don't in any form of democracy I can think of. Oh... Sam Hudson. I reckon I know that name? Didn't he do six months for having child porn on his hard disk, but there was insufficient evidence concerning his rape of his neighbour's 9 year old boy? I'm sure that was his name. the same person came up on the membership database I think.... |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM (#2862707) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: katlaughing Emma, I know. How anyone could not know what all of this is about and still be on Mudcat seems impossible. I am not belittling it, but it does get tedious when the same people come in and repeat the same slagging off at each other instead of being constructive. Having said that, it's nice to see the thread progressed into something more constructive. As to Alice...she has been a Mudcatter since almost Day One and has the respect of all who know her. She is a wonderful artist who has created logos for the Layabout Bros. At Large aka Big Mick, Catspaw and some others and also provided artwork for other Mudcatters free of charge. Joan, I can tell you with no doubt at all that the last thing on Alice's mind for offering her design on goods has anything to do with nefarious intent. She is not a person who puts herself out there, so I asked her permission to let folks know about her designs. I will send her a PM and ask her to come in here or to PM you, Joan. Lastly, I would say this is not really just a UK matter; ilk like the BNP exist everywhere and learning from each other on how to deal with them can be of value to anyone who abhors them and their agendas. Thank you, kat |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:39 PM (#2862715) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,David E. "All you have succeeded in telling us is that you have some sympathy for the racist fascist thugs who seek to instill hatred in young minds." Like I did say, I don't know the BNP from the Labor Party, but I do know fascism when I see it. David E. |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:44 PM (#2862718) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: katlaughing PLEASE NOTE: Alice is taking down the stuff she has listed as she says: I had no idea there was even a group by that name, as I don't follow the UK political threads. I'll take it down. Rest assured, she will follow through and take it down. kat |
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12 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM (#2862726) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) It said on her page that it was "a requested design", so maybe someone suggested it to her without fully informing her of the nature of the organisation? Anyway it's a pity it's not official merchandise after all, as I totally wanted that messenger bag! |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM (#2862737) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer ""While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher" !!!! nor should we, under any circumstances." You misunderstand me. My point is that just because someone's not a member of the BNP, doesn't mean they're not a racist. Goodness knows how many teachers there are who hold racially or socially prejuduced views, nor how their prejudices are reflected in their dealings with different students, if not through their teaching. However, if someone IS a card-carrying racist, we have a clear indicator that their dealings with certain students may well be biased. While we may not be able to do much about the former, we CAN respond to the latter - and I think we should. I do not think BNP members should be teachers. Re Alice's FAF merch: I have exchanged PMs with Alice and she is taking the page down. All is good. It would appear to be a case of crossed wires. |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM (#2862750) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,HiLo So are we to have some government committee designed to tell us what jobs we are fit for based on our private or political beliefs. I find bigots and fascists offensive as does any decent human being..however, I would be terrified by any law which assumes to divide citizens into fit and unfit persons for certain types of employment. Do we stop at teachers...where next, who next ? As I said, there are many ways to deal with people who abuse thier positions, depriving them of civil rights should never be one of them..if becomes one, then we are all at risk. We have seen this happen before and we should know better. All I really wish to convey is that I fear any government who claims to be protecting my rights by taking away the rights of others. |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM (#2862752) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Anne Lister There is another news item on the BBC website, to the effect that the BNP have been disallowed by Race Relations legislation from increasing their membership until they can frame their membership requirements in such a way that it convinces the relevant judges that it's not discrimatory. As to teachers ... the teachers who might want to be card-carrying members of this unpleasant party are highly unlikely to be working in schools where their beliefs might be challenged. I'm thinking of the schools I've worked at in various parts of London where the kids would be very sensitive to any degree of racism and wouldn't be likely to give those teachers any leeway in the classroom. And that's what's most worrying, really - I've come across far more unconscious (and conscious) racist attitudes in schools where there are no ethnic or religious minorities. Maybe, rather than banning teachers from becoming members of the BNP they should be required to work in schools where they might come across some vigorous debate from staff, parents and pupils? |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM (#2862759) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome Glad it all turned out, Joan. Just shows that Bob Hoskins was right after all. It's good to talk:-) The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems that anyone would justify that an apologist for Adolph Hitler (or Stalin or Pohl Pot or any other of the same ilk) should be allowed to teach our children. Imagine the history lessons? "Well, you will hear a lot about places like Belsen and Auswitz but if you look a little deeper you will find..." Sickening! Even if they manage to hide their true views they cannot help but give a slant to the lessons. And the covert suggestions may be even worse the the overt one above! DeG |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM (#2862763) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Maybe Alice could get a franchise from FaF so that the stuff remained available and FaF got extra funds: surely a better outcome than desired merchandise vanishing and FaF getting no funding. HiLo, you are not seeing the connection. Many people are denied many types of employment or occupation. People on the sex offenders register are barred from all contact (paid or unpaid) with children. People who have been disqualified from driving cannot be taxi drivers. People who have not passed the requisite tests cannot be doctors or lawyers. The BNP grunts are still at it. They have no desire to participate in any democracy. They are still using fake profiles on Facebook, Bebo, MySpace and a couple of other things in the USA the names of which escape me right now, using the names of other people, using pictures of other people, falsely to portray people as supporting them, and by implication to send the threatening message that the grunts with their range of convictions for firearms offences and violence are watching us. They have no place in a civilised society. |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM (#2862764) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer Anne, what about the school I worked in a couple of weeks ago where, in an Ethics lesson in RE, a group of kids (year 10) said that one of the rules they would create to make society better would be to "get rid of all the Pakis and the immigrants"? How is teacher who is a a card-carrying member of the BNP going to navigate that particular minefield? And what about when breaking up fights or settling disputes between white British and non-white or non-British students? Would you not be a bit concerned that a teacher who was a member of the BNP would be inclined to favour the white kid? |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:42 PM (#2862770) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton I was a Communist and a folkie for many years, I'm sure the views of the Communist Party were as "loathsome" to many as the views of the BNP, yet I was made welcome and met many new "comrades" in the folk community. Why the double standards? Read and understand Guest HoLo's post Freedom, not Orwellian madness! |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM (#2862773) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer because being a member of the BNP is not like being a member of the Communist (or any other) UK party. It means that teachers are actively prejudiced against a constituency of students. They may even question their right to even be in this country, let alone have the best possible education. Their treatment of those students may well reflect their racist views. That's why. |
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12 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM (#2862774) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Ah, yes, Akenaton, that's freedom for all apart from travellers is it? |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:11 PM (#2862783) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Thinking about Anne Lister's idea, that teachers who are members of the BNP should not be banned but made to work where their ideas will be challenged. I am wondering... challenged by who? Some students certainly are not equipped to deal with any potentially racist treatment. It seems to me that the teacher would either intimidate or ignore minority students. Perhaps students would stand up for themselves and for others, but is it right that they should be put in a situation that may have to? What happens to the 11 or 12 year old who is repeatedly ignored by said teacher? Who cannot understand why his paper did not make as high a mark as the thickest white kid in his class. What if his parents are not English speakers and cannot come to his defence? Sorry... it is not worth risking even one incident on one child. And as Ruth said, if someone publicly embraces racism and homophobia, that person is not suitable to be in a position of authority over any vulnerable person. |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM (#2862814) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Well Tam, they are the party of the future, so I am glad they saw sense. Thanks for the add by the way. This country needs to get it's act together when you consider that the British People Put Last: £63.3 Million in One Week's Foreign Aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan. tatter-flag-moneyLast week the Government handed out £63.3 million in foreign aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan — while both Tory and Labour parties have promised to make "far-reaching" domestic spending cuts in Britain. The latest example of how British people are always put last has come through a series of press releases on the Department for International Development's (DFID) website. These statements are always blacked out by the controlled media for fear of adverse public reaction, but can be viewed by clicking here. On 10 March, the DFID announced that it was giving £7.5 million to Somalia to provide food, clean water and medicine. At the same time, the DFID announced a further £5.8 million for a new programme "to help promote peace and stability in the region by supporting reconciliation and local peace building initiatives between clans and communities." The DFID's 2009–2010 aid programme in Somalia currently totals some £30.5 million. On 9 March, International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander launched a "new growth programme for Helmand to provide jobs and help for farmers and local businesses." The Helmand Growth Programme (HGP) will see around "800,000 people benefit from the project in which the Department for International Development is investing £28 million over three years" and will put "in place the foundations for continued growth and job creation." This grant will, the DFID said, reinforce "the commitment made by the Development Secretary in 2009 to invest £32 million in major infrastructure projects in Helmand, including a 50 km road linking the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah to the economic hub of Gereshk." On 8 March, the DFID announced that it would give £20 million to "help millions of people affected by conflict in Pakistan." By 2011, Pakistan will be the UK's second largest development programme worldwide, the DFID has proudly announced — despite Pakistan having a massive army which has nuclear weapons. The huge cash grants are put into perspective by the Government's failure to address the problem of eight million "economically inactive" people in Britain, and the paltry £12 million given for "deprived white working class areas" in October last year. Even that £12 million was divided up into 100 identified regions, which means that each area will get £120,000 — not even enough to buy a single new house. Only the British National Party will put the interests and rights of the British people first and says that these billions should be invested in fighting poverty and deprivation in Britain."" And there was nasty fat Nick (The Slug) Griffin, posturing and grinning on TV news tonaight claiming that he has changed their constitution to remove the racist tag from the BNP. Doesn't look as though the news has penetrated to the single brain cell of our resident bottom feeder. You can take the overt racism out of the publicity NICKY Boy, but the brain dead foot soldiers will always show you up for what you are, a fat horrible Nazi. Go to hell Sam...Soon! Don T. |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:38 PM (#2862816) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Nothing wrong with freedom for travellers Richard, but I would personally blow the brains out of anyone who sold heroin to schoolkids, or used knives and other weapons to enforce drug debts. That is what the travellers Richard is talking about were doing, and using their special status to avoid prosecution. Their encampment has been gutted and the families re-housed where their activities can be monitored by the police.....and a bloody good thing too Richard's travellers have long gone....with the horse and wagon, in Scotland anyway....things may be different in England. |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM (#2862826) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Royston Yes, this latest debate is a bit wrong-minded in my opinion. There are thought to be 6 teachers on the BNP membership list? Teacup, storm? The police service proscribed officers' membership of the BNP because it prejudiced the effective conduct of their duties and of the legal process. The BNP is a racist party. That is a matter of settled legal fact. If a copper belongs to it, he is compromised in every conceivable way when he has to arrest a person from an ethnic minority and then appear as a sound, impartial witness for the prosecution. The reason coppers can't be BNP members is that the fact of their membership could allow the guilty to walk free. Any other consideration was secondary. The same applies to Prison Officers. As well as simply being racist - as a matter of settled legal fact - the party has a line of rhetorical narrative about ethnic minorities being criminals by virtue of their genes and being less worthy of respect and care. Prison officers quite literally hold the lives and safety of vulnerable inmates in their hands and subject to their judgement. The reasons why BNP membership would be corrosive in that environment are all too obvious. Teachers? Not important enough. No life or death control or responsibilities. They are for the most part educated, intelligent professionals who should be trusted to impart facts to their charges and coach them through exams without being fulminating bigots. That there are only 6 BNP members in a workforce of, what, 500,000 or so speaks volumes, doesn't it? I think that the profession is quite capable of policing itself on this issue - but I agree with the recommendation to review this decision annually. |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM (#2862827) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Ruth...there were plenty of CP members who used the music as a vehicle for their politics....we were not fuckin' pussycats! The police, "scabs", capitalist lackies, the monarchy, Tories. We wanted to string them up from the nearest lamp post. Much more extreme than the puss puss BNP, who deny racism and have a dambed sight more public support than we ever had. I would never vote for them, but they deserve to be treated .....what's your buzzword?.....Equally!! |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM (#2862832) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Royston Ake, it is inconceivable that you could ever have been a communist - except as some thuggish hanger-on. With the socio-political views that you espouse here, do you seriously imagine that anyone believes you were a socialist warrior? Come on people - does anyone here believe that? |
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12 Mar 10 - 02:55 PM (#2862840) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome Royston, I cannot believe you just said Teachers? Not important enough. No life or death control or responsibilities. Remember the Jesuit philosophey? Give me a child until he is six and I will give you the man. It is true. Teachers are the second single biggest influence on our future, next to parents, yet you dismiss them as 'not important'! I do hope that was said with tongue firmly in cheek? By the way I am not a teacher, never have been, never will be and have no connections with education apart from I used to teach idiots who believed they could not manage without their computers how to spend more money with us:-) Cheers DeG |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM (#2862846) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Ah, yes, Akenaton, that's freedom for all apart from travellers is it?"" Yes, Travellers!.... And Gays!.....And liberals.....And Liberal Fascists(que?). And just about anybody else who either disagrees with him, or talks sense,...or both! Don T. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM (#2862847) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Why were "Blairites" not banned from becoming teachers. Do you really want our children to absorb and replicate the ideas of "loathsome" person who destroyed the soul of the Labour Party and who was personally responsible for our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of our troops and perhaps a million foreign nationals. Vile beast?......Nick Griffin doesn't even come close! |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:06 PM (#2862853) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Emma B Hey ake! Onr of the most popular teachers at my 2ry school was a card carrying member of the CP and had fought in the war against Franco as a very young man. Another teacher was a local labour party councillor - neither brought their politics into school with them but then they were there to teach not to 'recruit' What does disturb me is a facebook pro BNP / racist and anti immigrant group I stumbled across on Facebook recently whose members all appeared to come from one school in the NE - it made me think....... Although The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is fiction it demonstrates that as a teacher she abuses her authority in attempting to manipulate her pupils to be like her. As it IS fiction, they all reject her and she is betrayed. However, I'm still against making any martyrs for an unworthy and despicable cause - let the normal disciplinary safeguards deal with any attempts to bring racist attitudes in the school setting wherever possible; but maybe, if someone is a member of ANY political party there should be a 'disclosure' rule? |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:15 PM (#2862864) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton "And just about anybody else who either disagrees with him, or talks sense,...or both!" Well I guess that lets you out Don! :0) And get this fucking straight....there are lots of issues which I disagree with you about, but I would fight for your right to hold and expound your views....crazy as they may be. Same applies to homos, "liberals" Capitalists....they all have the right to free speech.........Well,.....maybe not capitalists!! :0) |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM (#2862870) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Emma....I would love to disagree but this overwhelming feeling of "hero worship" just wont allow it :0) Actually, as usual you have posted a message full of common sense if only all "liberals" were as liberal as you. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM (#2862876) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smokey. "I would be terrified by any law which assumes to divide citizens into fit and unfit persons for certain types of employment. Do we stop at teachers...where next, who next ?" (Hilo) Remember that one next time you're in hospital. In my opinion if a teacher cannot teach without bringing his/her political or religious views to work, they are unfit to do the job regardless of their personal beliefs. Free speech and democracy are nothing to do with it. Children should be taught without bias and encouraged to think and reason for themselves - that way they are more likely to grow up with the ability to fully appreciate and use that free speech and democracy in the manner in which it should be used, that is, with an accompanying sense of responsibility. Children learn from example, and they are the ones who will be running the show in a few years time. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:34 PM (#2862878) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Oh Yes Royston....there were plenty of thugs in our ranks ....plenty of fascists as well. I was registered in King Street from 1961 first YCL then CP. I would be obliged if you would stop accusing me of being a liar, with out one shred of evidence to back up your view......this is getting just like the Ugandan "gay" thread!......Deja vu or what? |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM (#2862883) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Smokey...Why should teachers who were BNP members be more likely to indoctrinate children than Communist teachers, "liberal" teachers or Consevative teachers? One catagory is as dangerous as another.....to some people |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM (#2862884) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smokey. I agree Ake, there's no evidence to say they will. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:42 PM (#2862888) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Anne Lister Sorry, I didn't think my post would be taken to imply I thought BNP members *should* be teachers. Merely that if there were any BNP teachers they should be given a rather tough induction. I've worked in the kind of schools I was referring to (and assumed others would know what they're like) and the pupils there were far from intimidated by any teachers and made their own views very clear about anyone they thought was behaving in a racist way. As indeed did the staff and parents. What I was feebly groping towards was my fear that where the BNP teachers will be found most frequently will be the places where those challenges won't be found. I won't try subtlety again on Mudcat - mea culpa. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM (#2862895) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: paula t As a teacher, I could not believe this ruling.I feel that any schoolteacher who joins the BNP should have to leave the profession. Anyone making the effort to join this party is too, "dyed- in- the -wool "to be allowed to teach children any more. Racist beliefs should not have a place in society, never mind in schools.Whether or not a person spouts their beliefs in an attempt to indoctrinate is irrelevant; a person's beliefs have an effect on behaviour,and a racist teacher is not going to be able to treat ethnic minority children in a fair way.No matter how much of an attempt is made to disguise dislike, preferences will be noticed,as children are more perceptive than they are given credit for. It is not worth the risk to children. Of course teachers, as adults, have a right to choose their own beliefs.However,it should be made clear that making that choice means a change of profession. |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:47 PM (#2862896) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Oh I see Anne.....bad BNP teachers!.....well that's just another way of being a......whats the word?....must ask a "liberal" :0) |
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12 Mar 10 - 03:52 PM (#2862901) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "There is another news item on the BBC website, to the effect that the BNP have been disallowed by Race Relations legislation from increasing their membership until they can frame their membership requirements in such a way that it convinces the relevant judges that it's not discrimatory." I think in all the argument Anne's point (which I just heard on the radio) has been missed. This is the second ruling against the BNP on this issue. The BNP has, effectively, been declared by the British courts to be a racist organisation. I have been castigated for vehemently opposing the BNP, to the extent that I have been called by one mudcatter (Bubblyrat) both a communist and a fascist (yeah, you work it out!). I rather think this vindicates the stance of those people who stand against the BNP. Its members have the right to employment provided they meet the criteria set by the employer. For a teacher, those criteria are rigid and clear. Once they step outside them, such as by exhibiting discriminatory attitudes, they break the conditions of their employment (and the law) and should be dismissed forthwith. |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM (#2862917) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton "if someone publicly embraces racism and homophobia, that person is not suitable to be in a position of authority over any vulnerable person." How do we define "racism"? I have been called "racist" for proposing that all immigrants from Sub Saharan Africa should be tested for Hiv/Aids before being allowed in. Now that seems to me like common sense, but to others it is racist...why? Should I be banned from any contact with children for holding that view? Who are the fascists? |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:10 PM (#2862919) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Emma B 'What I was feebly groping towards was my fear that where the BNP teachers will be found most frequently will be the places where those challenges won't be found.' Understood Anne! - my point about the cluster of vocal BNP supporters in one school specifically mentioned the NE location of that school a largely white post industrial setting 'On the surface the ostensibly white compostion of the area may suggest that questions of racism, ethnicity migration and settlement are peripheral issues to a region that contains the lowest proportion of minority residents in the country' - 'New geographies of race and racism' by Claire Dwyer, Caroline Bressey However forced population movements as a result of 'ethnic cleansing' and genocide as well as well as the rise of Acession states to the EU has seen a recent more diverse population in this area too challenging previous assumptions of an homogenous culture and could create a fertile ground for someone wishing to promote a racist agenda so it is necessary to exercise caution. |
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12 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM (#2862929) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smokey. Wasn't the creation of OFSTED and the National Curriculum designed partly to get rid of that sort of thing? |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:19 PM (#2862967) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Works really well, huh? |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM (#2862969) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Incidentally, was everyone else so taken by appearnace of the neanderthals in suits "protecting" Dopey Dick Griffin as he went to court to watch another £60k of his members' (well, that's a good word for them) money flushed in costs because neither he nor his lawyers can understand the relatively simple concept of "indirect discrimination"? NoNONO the BNP are not thugs these days, are they? Much. |
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12 Mar 10 - 05:43 PM (#2862979) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smokey. "Works really well, huh?" I'd wager they've made it a lot more difficult to preach dodgy ideals in schools, but I take your point, Richard. |
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12 Mar 10 - 06:11 PM (#2862997) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Now that seems to me like common sense, but to others it is racist...why?"" Because, numbnuts, it discriminates against one group of immigrants, by reason of their race, in enforcing compulsory testing, while other immigrants are not required to be tested. What else is it, if not racial discrimination? You can't even force British citizens to take any kind of test without changing existing law. ""And get this fucking straight....there are lots of issues which I disagree with you about, but I would fight for your right to hold and expound your views....crazy as they may be."" Don't do me any favours pal. The last thing I need is to be tarred with the racist bigot brush, by getting support from you. As for crazy, well I do sometimes wonder about my sanity, which, as any good psych will tell you is proof of sanity. They will also tell you that people who believe everybody else is crazy, are usually certifiable. Think about that the next time you claim everybody in the army is out of step except you three. Don T. |
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12 Mar 10 - 07:43 PM (#2863040) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Royston Ake: "Oh Yes Royston....there were plenty of thugs in our ranks ....plenty of fascists as well. I was registered in King Street from 1961 first YCL then CP. I would be obliged if you would stop accusing me of being a liar, with out one shred of evidence to back up your view......this is getting just like the Ugandan "gay" thread!......Deja vu or what? " I never doubted that you had membership card. I doubt that you were ever a communist - except as a thuggish hanger-on I suspect you were a communist as a drummer is a musician. You were a communist as Stalin was a communist You were a communist as Blair or Prescott were socialists. Alternatively, when did you sell out or have your damascene conversion to the horror that we see today? |
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12 Mar 10 - 09:27 PM (#2863073) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge I have an idea. Maybe we can put some of the neckless wonders that follow Dopey Dick Griffin into a classroom with some of the little angels who threaten teachers and hope they all kill each other. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:28 AM (#2863167) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Wrong Don....It discriminates against one group of immigrants because they have shown massively higher rates of hiv infection than any other immigrant group and only slightly lower rates than the highest demographic....homosexuals. Now, as my opinion bears no relation to race or colour, how can it be described as bigotry or racism? Is it a crime in your circle to be against the spread of death and disease? This is a very good example of political ideology gone mad and dangerous I have nothing against people of other races, or people of different skin colour, quite the contrary, I have friends of many nationalities and colours, and find their differing cultures extremely interesting. You simply cannot go around discriminating against teachers who may simply be against govt immigration policy or foreign wars....if you do that, then you yourself become the bigot and a much greater danger than Mr Griffin or the BNP......You and your ilk become the lynch mob! Royston....you obviously know absolutely fuck all about the Communist philosophy, I absorbed it, and it will never really leave me till I die, but I did come to realise that it is a souless ideology, not taking into account the power of the human spirit...in humanist terms. Human beings are not prepared to sacrifice themselves to the monoliths of organisation...life is short and in real terms getting ever shorter. Wake up please. |
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13 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM (#2863207) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam can I just say... this is MY THREAD and the current prevailing behaviour is making MammaTamara unhappy! Do not engage in name calling and personal attacks. Does nothing but devalue the point you are trying to make. That goes for everyone. Ake - How do we define "racism"? I have been called "racist" for proposing that all immigrants from Sub Saharan Africa should be tested for Hiv/Aids before being allowed in. There is no compulsory HIV test for people already in the UK, so to single out a group immigrating from a specific part of the world is definitely discriminatory. As these people are of a specific race then your proposal can easily be viewed as racist. Now can we get back to discussing why teachers are considered different than the police and prison officers. Why should one group be banned from BNP membership and not another when both are in position of authority over others who cannot defend themselves against potentially harmful behaviour/comment? I don't think the few numbers of BNP teachers should have any bearing on the argument. Nor does the supposition that these teachers are probably teaching in predominantly white schools. One child exposed to any kind of racist or homophobic behaviour from a teacher is one too many. This includes white British children. Another thing to consider is, what must the public think if the government does not believe children should be afforded the same protection from potential harm from BNP members as the average citizen being dealt with by police or a prisoner? |
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13 Mar 10 - 05:06 AM (#2863209) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Keith A Tam, a very high proportion of people from those regions are infected. They can be treated free of charge and advised how not to pass the disease on to other people. They often reject the test because they fear they will not be allowed to stay if it is positive, but that is not the case. It is not an unreasonable request in return for our hospitality. What reason could they have for refusing? |
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13 Mar 10 - 05:12 AM (#2863215) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Guest Keith - thanks for that information. But it is still discriminatory to force it. And it is off topic. Please, I am trying to get the thread back on track. |
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13 Mar 10 - 05:43 AM (#2863234) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Royston Any further discussion of HIV belongs here http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=125426&messages=2056&page=1&desc=yes Tam is righe, this is thread-creep |
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13 Mar 10 - 06:11 AM (#2863252) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,Rich Arrowsmith I would be careful what you write here, A Google search on the subject is throwing up names and photographs and your comments from about four other sites. |
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13 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM (#2863267) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Paul Burke I have been called "racist" for proposing that all immigrants from Sub Saharan Africa should be tested for Hiv/Aids before being allowed in. Sounds fair enough to me. That's racism. |
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13 Mar 10 - 06:51 AM (#2863275) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Google search on the thread title and my mudcat ID did not bring up any such result. Trying to put us off, guest Rich? |
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13 Mar 10 - 07:17 AM (#2863284) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Royston Yeah "Rich". I would be delighted to reach an ever greater audience with my thoughts against the racist BNP and all its racist members. That accusation of racism is, of course, a matter of settled legal fact. A fact under British Law. Not an opinion. But unfortunately our discussions are not being broadcast; more's the pity. |
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13 Mar 10 - 07:51 AM (#2863305) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Now, as my opinion bears no relation to race or colour, how can it be described as bigotry or racism?"" A CLUE! ""snip......all immigrants from Sub Saharan Africa should be tested for Hiv/Aids before being allowed in. I see no mention of any other races being liable for testing, and I'm moderately certain that some Poles, Romanians, Estonians, etc. etc. will be carrying HIV. If I were advocating compulsory testing (which I'm not) it would relate to immigrants only, without reference to origin. That is the difference between one who is concerned with health, and a racist. Feel free to explain what you find difficult to understand about that point of view. I'm fairly sure I can answer with words of two syllables or less. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 07:56 AM (#2863308) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I have nothing against people of other races, or people of different skin colour, quite the contrary, I have friends of many nationalities and colours, and find their differing cultures extremely interesting."" I wish I had a pound for every bigot who has spouted those words. It's the standard response, and if you listen very very carefully you can hear the unvocalised "BUT" at the end of it. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 08:21 AM (#2863323) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T My apologies Tam. Had I red your post before rsponding to Ake, I would have taken it elsewhere. On topic now. Which, I wonder, would be the smart response to BNP members in the teaching profession. Much as I hate the scum, I am very dubious about the banning of political parties in a democracy. I'm not sure that I want to trust government not to overstep the mark in deciding who should be banned. Some of us on this forum might possibly be considered for banning when we express our opinions on government competence (or more likely, incompetence). I agree with Tam that we should afford our children as good (or better) protection as is given to suspected or convicted criminals. Perhaps the answer is a requirement for all teachers to disclose political affiliations (instant dismissal if caught lying), by which I mean membership of any political party. Their lesson plans and interaction with pupils could then be monitored with knowledge of the most likely slant in teaching, and if biased teaching were found, that too would mean instant dismissal. IMO, it has to be done "across the board" without targetting any particular party, then nobody is being discriminated against, except the rule breaker. When all is said and done, I don't suppose that the BNP teachers have any greater opportunity to indoctrinate than others. When it comes to indoctrination, the party which would come off worst would in point of fact be the Tories. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of Tory teachers I have ever met, and have several fingers left over. And that my friends is true from primary school to university. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 08:51 AM (#2863339) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Regarding racism, I see little difference between the views being expounded by the BNP and those from a large section of the Conservative party....A party which Don is proud to support. In fact, the biggest racist idiots that I ever met were right wing Tories! Virgin....My posts were on topic, as to discuss "racist teachers" one must determine the naqture of racism. My view on hiv testing had nothing to do with race per se, but the fact that these particular immigrants have very high levels of infection and THAT is a fact, not an opinion. |
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13 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM (#2863341) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Keith A of Hertford Don T, in some parts of Sub Saharan Africa, the prevalence of AIDS reaches 50%. No other place in the world comes close. There is huge international intervention to help them. Is that discrimination??? How is it discrimination to help them with free testing and treatment here. I would accept it gladly, and if I proved positive would be forever grateful for that knowledge and the treatment that would extend my otherwise very short life. |
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13 Mar 10 - 08:55 AM (#2863343) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Sorry Tam, some just don't get it, and never will. I'll respond to the idiot elsewhere. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 09:24 AM (#2863356) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Don the only thing you need to apologise to me for is for name calling. I expressly asked for that to stop. Re the bit about Torie teachers... well it seems unlikely because (if I am getting it right that they are like republicans in the US) teaching doesn't pay well enough or is not prestigious enough. Akenaton and Keith - still off topic but at least you do not call names. Point is that the compulsory testing should be for everyone, immigrant and native if it is not to be construed at discriminatory. Attaching a problem to a geographical place and its inhabitants appears racist regardless of the facts and figures you share. Not saying any more on this because it has nothing to do with this thread. I ask you now to honour that. Now what about what Don said re across the board statement of political affiliations and monitoring of any and all teachers whatever party they claim? Seems like a very sensible proposition. The problem lies again in the enforcement. Ideas? For every one... try not to post until you can come up with possibly workable solutions instead bellyaching and finger pointing. Please! |
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13 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM (#2863380) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam correction - Tory teachers.... can I spell? Once I could but that facility as is the one for finding the correct word is growing weaker with age and illness. |
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13 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM (#2863470) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome Regarding racism, I see little difference between the views being expounded by the BNP and those from a large section of the Conservative party Much as I disagree with a lot of Tory policy (and a lot of 'new' Labour for that matter) I must stand up for them in this case. I have never seen anything in a Tory manifesto that is in direct breach of racial equality guidelines. The BNPs manifesto and it's own membership rules are full of them. I respect Tam's wishes to not resort to name calling but if you cannot see the difference between the main poitical parties and the BNP then there is something seriously wrong. It is eiter in how people are explaining it or you refusal to see the evil in these people. I shall leave it for others to decide which. Back to the main thread. I would be happy for David Cameron to educate my grandson. I would be happy if Tony Blair, dressed in a red robe and white beard bounced him on his knee while shouting 'Ho ho ho'. But if nasty Nick came withing 10 yards of the little lad I would snatch up my grandson and run for the door. Yes, they are all politicians. Yes, none of them can be trusted. But to try and compare them any further is like trying to say all criminals are the same. I would happily let a reformed thief loose in a classroom. I would not do the same with a paedophile. Cheers DeG |
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13 Mar 10 - 01:28 PM (#2863473) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton "If someone publicly embraces racism and homophobia, that person is not suitable to be in a position of authority over any vulnerable person. " Sorry to labour the point Virginia, but in another thread I'm sure you announced that you were an anarchist,given that many here would see that view as anti-democratic and dangerous, do you consider that anyone holding your views should be banned from positions of authority over children? If not, why do you wish to ban BNP members, who may simply have joined the Party on political issues like immigration or foreign policy. On this forum any opposition to unrestricted immigration appears to qualify one as a fully paid up racist. |
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13 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM (#2863475) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: McGrath of Harlow Children should be taught without bias and encouraged to think and reason for themselves That in itself is a political point of view, and there are people who would disagree with it. The idea that it's possible to totally exclude political attitudes in teaching doesn't really stand up when you examine it closely. And if it were possible, that would in truth be a highly politicised form of teaching. |
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13 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM (#2863487) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer Don, the issue isn't banning the BNP. It is that membership of the BNP might not be appropriate for people working in certain professions. Keep in mind that there are lots of people who vote Labour, for example, who might not be members of the Labour party. It has already been deemed inappropriate for people in the prison service and for the police to be BNP members. If someone is so entrenched in their beliefs that they are a card-carrying member of an overtly racist political party, I do not think that they should be teaching children. It is NOT just an issue of how they deliver the curriculum, it is the fact that, in some of the most deprived and socially excluded schools, the element of pastoral care is proportionally much bigger than in the more middle class, successful schools. In fact, it is a huge part of the job. There are difficult situations to be navigated every day, and these may include children from diverse backgrounds, and from new immigrant communities. I am not sure, for example, that I would trust a card-carrying member of the BNP to respond in the most sensitive and caring way to a child from a Somali or a Polish family; nor to treat that child with absolute fairness and respect if they were bullied, for example, or came into conflict with white British kids. These are the reasons why the police and members of the prison service are not allowed to be members. Keep in mind that having the right teachers working at the coalface can be the determining factor in whether certain kids end up in prison, or having regular run-ins with the police. For these reasons, I think that the regulation should be exactly the same. I was furious when listening to Maurice Smith on Radio 4 yesterday morning - one of the main reasons he seems to have come to his conclusions is that he is afraid it will set a precedent for all public sector workers to be banned from BNP membership. He thinks this would be bad, so he has decided it would be inappropriate to ban teachers. But teachers are in a unique position with relation to other public sector workers. This article from today's Guardian spells out the issues really well: Official: it's fine for racists to teach |
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13 Mar 10 - 01:52 PM (#2863492) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Paco O'Barmy I have fingers of lead and so couldn't possibly comment.100. |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM (#2863503) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome why do you wish to ban BNP members, who may simply have joined the Party on political issues like immigration or foreign policy. Members of the BNP who agree with the overtyly racist policies should go nowhere near children on moral grounds. Memebers of the BNP who joined on the basis detailed above and expected not to be tarred with the same brush should go nowhere near children on the grounds that they are too naive to be in control of young people. DeG |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:25 PM (#2863516) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Well Dave, one could argue that ANYONE who joins any of the mainstream parties is guilty of naivety. If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party? Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology. |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:26 PM (#2863517) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: vic c Sorry, regular lurker, non poster here. I work for the pupil referral unit, an educational placement for excluded children. As such, the students are very vulnerable - potential activists, potential racists, many different kinds of kids. A teacher is not only a member of the BNP, but has stood to be a councillor. It is and has caused a multitude of difficulties - when the kids found out, there were many reactions - a black kid was extremely distressed, thought he'd been totally let down, trusted someone that he shouldn't. Black and Asian teaching assistants firstly wanted to refuse to work in a room with him (all groups are supported, no groups are more than 4/5 pupils) then felt they would be letting the kids down if they weren't in there to monitor and support. The unions are heavily involved. Nothing can be done. He is ostracised by the staff, not trusted by the pupils. It is affecting the education offered. He makes remarks like "well, I'd not bother teaching french if it were up to me, no point". It is a very difficult on going situation. |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:30 PM (#2863521) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer "If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party? Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology." Akenaton, this is not simply about a party questioning immigration policy. Read and learn. BNP's racist membership rules outlawed |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:38 PM (#2863526) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome If the BNP(whom I know very little about) are overtly racist, why are they recognised as a legal political party? The legal entities are still out on that one, ake. Their membership policy has been decalred illegal and, hopefuly, their racist manefesto will soon go the same way. Sorry, but we realy are taking chalk and cheese when you try to compare this bunch of thugs with any of the mainstream party. I would not give any politician the time of day. But I would not piss on a BNP member if he was on fire. DeG |
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13 Mar 10 - 02:52 PM (#2863533) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Riginslinger In the states we have La Raza. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM (#2863540) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton I thought they had changed their membership policy?...and which parts of their manifesto are "overtly racist" To me, a racist comment would be "black people are stupid, lazy, smelly,evil etc"......being against immigration on political grounds does not seem like racism to me. Ruth, I read the link you posted.....Sorry, I thought it was absolute poppycock.....and dangerous in a "free society" Did you bother to read the comments attached to the article, they were almost 100% in favour of BNP members being allowed to teach and very critical of the article Seems we have retained some of our regard for freedom of speech and thought. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM (#2863543) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Re the bit about Torie teachers... well it seems unlikely because (if I am getting it right that they are like republicans in the US) teaching doesn't pay well enough or is not prestigious enough."" I'm afraid you are being misled by the biased comment which is rife on these threads. Given that New Labour, and the Tories each achieve somewhere in the region of 40% of the votes, it is nonsense to suppose that there are only rich toffs voting Tory. There aren't anywhere near that number of rich Old Etonian types in the country. Our resident lefties hate the idea, but it is true that there are near as many working class Tories, as Labour voters, and there are near as many greedy rich Labourites as there are greedy rich Tories. "Sad, but true",or "heartening", depending on your point of view. Right wing, however, is a very generous placement of BNP followers, who make Hitler look like a communist. No Tory comes close to parity with that lot. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM (#2863546) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""And if it were possible, that would in truth be a highly politicised form of teaching."" Run that by me again MGoH. The absence of political bias in teaching is a highly politicised form of teaching? I must have just fallen down a rabbit hole. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:20 PM (#2863550) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Is opposition to immigration on any grounds a sure sign of racism, or the sign of a hypocritical "liberal" ideology."" Only if, as is the case with the BNP it is primarily opposition to Black, and Asian immigration, especially when the party specifically excludes Black and Asian citizens from membership. The BNP also state unequivocally that people of Black and Asian stock cannot be British, even if they, and their parents, were born here. Don T. |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM (#2863554) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Don't even try to work out Mr McGrath's comment Don, a frontal lobe explosion could make more of a mess of these pages than your writing has already done :0) |
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13 Mar 10 - 03:34 PM (#2863558) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smokey. Indeed, Don. "Curiouser and curiouser." |
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13 Mar 10 - 04:07 PM (#2863580) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: GUEST,David E. " In the states we have La Raza." Which brings up a good point: Why is it if you support the BNP you are a racist but if you oppose La Raza you are also considered a racist? David E. |
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13 Mar 10 - 06:51 PM (#2863607) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Joe Offer La Raza is a term used to identify Mexican-Americans and a couple of organizations that promote the rights of Mexican-Americans. To support "La Raza" is to support equal rights for people who have been oppressed and excluded in the U.S. for many generations - people whose roots are in a country which once owned a large part of what is now the United States. Supporting the BNP means to support the supremacy of one race and the exclusion of all but a very narrowly-defined group of white people deemed to deserve to live in the UK. In other words, supporting the BNP and supporting "La Raza" are exact opposities. I've told this story here before, but it's worth telling again. When I was visiting England, Micca and I were riding a bus in London; and a drunken man about 60 years of age got on. Micca thought he was a Scotsman. He went around to everyone in the bus who looked foreign, demanding their papers and telling them they didn't belong there. Then he sat down next to me, and said something looking for sympathy. I responded, "I'm not a citizen of your country, sir, and I don't like what you were doing to these people." Almost all the people I encountered in England were very nice, but this one incident was distressing and seems to be a good example of the BNP mentality I used to go to the Deep South of the U.S. to supervise elections under the Voting Rights Act. Usually, the people were wonderful, both black and white (and the food in the rural south was the stuff of legends). But there was always one person who said something hateful, something that reminded me that it was a good thing I was there. When it comes to wanting to exclude people, that's racism. That attitude seems to be deeply entrenched in the thinking of BNP supporters. To them, you have to be born in the right place and have the right skin color if you want to have the right to pay to rent a home or pay to ride a bus or get a job that you're qualified to perform. That just doesn't seem like justice to most of us. -Joe Offer- |
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13 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM (#2863617) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Sorcha Not sure that makes a lot of sense to ME...La Raza does mean 'The Race'. OK, I'll get back under my rock now. |
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13 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM (#2863628) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Joe.....I dont think you really understand where support for the BNP in England comes from. There may well be racists in the BNP but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here. How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes. During the "financial boom that never was" immigration was encouraged by new Labour as a device to "make Britain globally competetive" code for driving down workers wages. The treatment given to immigrants to encourage them to come here, caused friction with the indigenous UK population. Racism or colour prejudice has never been the driver for BNP popularity, much as some of your friends here would like you to believe it. Your experience with the drunk on the bus was unfortunate, but these things happen everywhere....drunks are a menace and this one was not representative of the English people.....and I say that as a true Scot :0) |
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13 Mar 10 - 09:34 PM (#2863671) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Joe Offer Well, Ake, it's pretty clear from the BNP Website, that they have strong prejudices against immigration and immigrants. I'm sure many BNP supporters have been brought in by deception, but the party makes no secret of its racism. -Joe Offer, a descendant of immigrants- |
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13 Mar 10 - 11:07 PM (#2863706) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: LadyJean The lady we had for Art History in High School put this question on the midterm "It has been said that the Greeks were architects, while the Romans were merely engineers. Discuss." You could discuss that question either way, but knowing, as I did, that the lady was a proud Greek American, I disparaged the Pantheon and praised the Parthenon, thereby earning full points on the question. It is hard for a teacher to keep her biases out of the classroom. It occurs to me that facists don't have the best opinion of disabled people. Disabled students have a tough enough time without having a teacher who thinks they should be humanely destroyed. The headmistress of my old school was quite the anglophile, and hired a number of English women to teach. Any one of them would have done very well in the S.S. Now I wonder what their politics were. |
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13 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM (#2863709) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge Humanely? |
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14 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM (#2863776) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Don - I know that there are plenty of working class Tories. Teachers by definition are not working class. I was taking up the point you made that you knew few Tory teachers. If the conservative has the wherewithal to take on further education it is generally to further possession and/or prestige. Ake- Are you referring to this post? Subject: RE: Knock! Knock! (who's there?) From: VirginiaTam - PM Date: 25 Sep 09 - 04:25 PM I wanna be an anachrist when i grow up It is a joke thread and I purposely mispelled it in reference to the Sex Pistols song. Are you stalking me through threads? If there are other reference from me re anarchy - yeah sometimes it appeals as a method of purging current political systems. But permanance of anarchy is unthinkable. Re your last response to Joe - providing reasons why people support the BNP doesn't excuse the fact that those reasons are still racist. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:08 AM (#2863808) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Smedley Akenaton: "There may well be racists in the BNP but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here." That, I fear, is utter rubbish. If you want to mark your dissaisfaction with mainstream parties via a protest vote, you have plenty of non-racist, non-fascist options. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:40 AM (#2863816) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Stu "How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes." Which the BNP is as guilty of as any other party, with racism attached too. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:47 AM (#2863818) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "Racism or colour prejudice has never been the driver for BNP popularity, much as some of your friends here would like you to believe it." So explain why so many high-profile BNP members and candidates have convictions for racist5 offences and for violence. Any reputable political party would expel them. The BNP welcomes and applauds them. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM (#2863819) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Virginia...I certainly am not stalking you, I just remembered you saying that you were inclined towards Anarchism. I did respond in agreement to your statement, but cant be arsed looking for the thread. Anyway, apologies if I have upset you. Now, I would really be interested if you would answer my question. regarding the fitness to teach, of anyone who holds these views. I would add, that my own views are similar to yours on this issue. Smedley.....There appears to be a large portion of working class society, mostly based in North and central England, who feel that no one but the BNP are addressing the issues which are most important to them.....and these issues do not include skin colour. All the main parties avoided discussion on the effects of immigration during the "boom", now with the inevitable crash, they all want to talk about "regulation" Fucking hypocrites! But once people start to believe that they are being manipulated, the backlash is difficult to control. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:57 AM (#2863823) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Jack....I understand and accept your point. Leveller.....Your point is related to Jack's The people who run the BNP are no doubt as corrupt and power hungry as Blair or Thatcher.....but those who vote for them are not necessarily racist. As Jack says, they are in all probability being manipulated...... in the same manner as many "liberals" |
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14 Mar 10 - 08:08 AM (#2863835) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge I have never seen any post here or elsewhere by any BNP member or supporter that appears to have any understanding of macro-economic issues. That leaves the principal BNP issues as immigration and corruption. There are many other routes to control of political corruption (and indeed the present principal complaint about venality is about the use of a system introduced by Margaret Thatcher (to create a covert pay rise for MPs) exactly as it was intended, to get extra money for MPs). That leaves immigration as the only real driver of the BNP. It would in theory be possible for restriction or elimination of immigration to be non-racist, but that is never (and I mean never) seen. All of the proposals to restrict immigration will leave (say) white Germans free to come to the UK but not (say) black Africans. It is very hard to see how that cannot be racist. |
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14 Mar 10 - 08:09 AM (#2863836) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome but the Majority who vote for the BNP are simply sick of the corrupt nature of politics here. If that is the case, then the majority of people who vote for the BNP cannot see past the end of their noses. Do you really belive that people are gullible enough to think that nasty Nick is a better man than Brown or Cameron? I have no time for politicians in general but, come on, do you realy believe that a politicians who also racist thugs provide a viable alternative? If that ever comes to pass I know it is really time to get out. DeG |
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14 Mar 10 - 09:38 AM (#2863865) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam Back to the topic....GAWD this is exhausting.... Akenaton if you see my post Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:24 AM I said... Now what about what Don said re across the board statement of political affiliations and monitoring of any and all teachers whatever party they claim? Seems like a very sensible proposition. The problem lies again in the enforcement. Ideas? This is the direction I'd hoped the thread would move in. In my opinion, BNP members are not fit to teach children for the same reason that they are not fit to be police and prison officers. But the fact remains teachers are NOT banned from BNP membership. And many teachers regardless of proclaimed (or not) political affiliations may well be problematic regards fair and equal treatment of all students. So what would you (any of you) propose to protect students from exposure to inappropriate treatment. Also guest Sam Hudson the junk you posted is without reference and does not apply to the topic of this thread. Moderators - I thought guests were not permitted to post to BS threads, especially volatile ones. |
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14 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM (#2863878) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Keith A of Hertford Vic C, I also teach in a PRU. I was going to suggest that if a teacher were identified as BNP, the situation in their school would be just what you described in your place. I am surprised that they escaped a ban. Feelings within the school would just not be conducive to the smooth running of the school. |
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14 Mar 10 - 11:37 AM (#2863923) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Victoria.....Do you really think students need protected from other people's views. My primary school teacher(seven classes in one room), was a rabid right wing Tory who made the School memorise the MacMillan cabinet and sing the National anthem every couple of hours, yet I grew up to be a very militant Communist :0) |
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14 Mar 10 - 11:49 AM (#2863933) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome LOL Ake - It's probably WHY you grew up to be a millitant communist:-) |
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14 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM (#2863936) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Additionally, If I were to become a police or prison officer, many would think me incapable of doing my job. Should those with Socialist, Communist, or Anarchist political views be banned from doing the jobs you mention. Would banning only BNP members be "discrimination" Isn't "liberalism" complicated! :0) |
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14 Mar 10 - 11:57 AM (#2863938) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Yes dave I see your point :0), but I was a Tory till I was "indoctrinated" by an old workmate, and given some good reading material. |
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14 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM (#2863947) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton FROM VIRGINIA "Ake your last response to Joe - providing reasons why people support the BNP doesn't excuse the fact that those reasons are still racist." But as explained, the reasons are not NECESSARILY racist....one can be against immigration on purely political grounds, for example , if it is being used as a tool by government to "make us more competetive in the global economy". We are all members of one race or another, anyone who feels prejuciced against any particular race or skin colour is simply mad. That does not exempt us from censure of our bad behaviour because we claim that any such censure is "racist" |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM (#2864164) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: paula t Akenaton, As a teacher I am extremely concerned about teachers being allowed to be in the BNP ,as I stated earlier. This is not because they would be able to preach their ideology, but because their values would influence their behaviour. This could result in sections of our pupils being treated less fairly than others.Children are extremely perceptive , and know when someone values them less than someone else. It is not worth the risk of making a child unhappy. Let these teachers find another profession, because if they believe a section of the school community is less deserving, then they don't understand the role of teacher. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:39 PM (#2864172) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Don't even try to work out Mr McGrath's comment Don, a frontal lobe explosion could make more of a mess of these pages than your writing has already done :0)"" I was talking to McGrath, so butt out A***hole, and mind your own business. Your bigotry and racism are already amply demonstrated elsewhere on this forum. Don T. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:48 PM (#2864178) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T "How ordinary people are cynically manipulated for political purposes."" Especially by the rabble rousers of the BNP, who are expert at playing the "Goebbels bogeyman" game, to manipulate the dumber members of our population to believe Black and Asian people are the authors of all the country's ills. Don T. |
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14 Mar 10 - 07:57 PM (#2864180) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""As a teacher I am extremely concerned about teachers being allowed to be in the BNP ,as I stated earlier. This is not because they would be able to preach their ideology, but because their values would influence their behaviour. This could result in sections of our pupils being treated less fairly than others."" No point talking to Ake about fairness Paula. Ake doesn't do fair. He does discrimination against anyone he doesn't like, and that list is extensive. Look up the list of his posts and you'll see what I mean. Don T. |
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14 Mar 10 - 08:09 PM (#2864185) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Back on topic, we are agreed, Tam, that BNP teachers are a problem, but, while it might be possible to remove party members, how would we handle sympathisers and fellow travellers. Thought police is a concept even more revolting than BNP (marginally), and impractical to boot. I would suggest that (absent mindreading) this is an impossible task. That said, are we making the classroom any safer by removing the visible (which can be monitored), while leaving in situ the invisible (which cannot)? Don T. |
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15 Mar 10 - 03:41 AM (#2864296) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton "Thought police is a concept even more revolting than BNP (marginally), and impractical to boot!" Glad to see we agree at last Don. Now just take the pills and try to sleep. |
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15 Mar 10 - 03:50 AM (#2864300) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: akenaton Don's right Paula, people have opinions/kinks/bigotry.....all professions and jobs I've known teachers who actually "hated kids".....In my time at school, we were belted with a leather strap, a few teachers looked on that as a "perk of the job" |
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15 Mar 10 - 04:06 AM (#2864301) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Richard Bridge I wonder if there might have been reasons. |
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15 Mar 10 - 04:09 AM (#2864304) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Keith A of Hertford Don, it is still name calling even if you replace some letters with asterisks. |
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15 Mar 10 - 04:29 AM (#2864311) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller I must admit that the idea of there being the odd (I use that word in both its contexts) BNP-supporting teacher in a school doesn't particularly worry me. One teacher does not make a school. Any discriminatory behaviour should be quickly picked up and the appropriate action taken. If a child came home spouting the loathsome BNP rhetoric, parents would soon complain to the headteacher. Based on the level of BNP support in this country, BNP teachers could only be a very small minority and, as I have said before, the compulsory CRB checks would soon rule out many potential candidates. Anyway, judging by the average IQ of a typical BNP supporter, very few would have the intelligence to qualify as teachers in the first place. I think I would be more worried about the BNP targetting vulnerable adults - they, after all, have a vote. |
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15 Mar 10 - 05:02 AM (#2864314) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Ruth Archer "Any discriminatory behaviour should be quickly picked up and the appropriate action taken." Ya think?! Spend a day in an inner-city comprehensive and tell me that's the case. Inevitably there will be racists working in the school system, and there is very little anyone can do about this. However, if someone joins a racist political party (which constitutes action, not just thought) they have made a clear and public statement about their bigotry, and must be fairly happy to defend it. Such people do not belong in positions of power over the vulnerable, in this case children. |
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15 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM (#2864354) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: Dave the Gnome Hey, j0hn - Where have you been? I see you must have given your keyboard a clean - Not a spilling mastike or sticky key in sight:-) |
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15 Mar 10 - 07:18 AM (#2864373) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: theleveller "Spend a day in an inner-city comprehensive and tell me that's the case." That's where mrsleveller has spent much of her working life for the last 15 years. |
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15 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM (#2864666) Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP From: VirginiaTam I agree with Sir John... let's bury this thread under the petunias? |