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09 Apr 10 - 06:16 PM (#2883203) Subject: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg I want the pope gone. How do we do this? Petitions? Letters? The idea of protecting a man who tied little boys up in the rectory is even a little much for Shanty Irish me. Done. Finite. mg |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:06 PM (#2883239) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke Simply ignore everything he does or says. Most of the Catholics I know have always been heretical on any examinable point of doctrine (my late mother included), and there's a strong precedent- back in the 14th century there were TWO popes, so all the Catholics were ignoring at least one of them. And don't worry about not believing what he says- HE doesn't either, and neither do the rest of the clergy. Otherwise he could have said, I've got the power to loose and bind, and if you've ever abused children, you turn yourself in pronto, otherwise it's fryup time when you die. |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:15 PM (#2883248) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: SINSULL I am a "fallen" catholic and have no regrets. I do remember, however, how much comfort the faith of my youth gave me and I pity the believers who are caught up in what is essentially a political mess. I wish them all well. Mary |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:18 PM (#2883253) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha I rather think he has to die, mg. No other way that I know of. |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:23 PM (#2883259) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. He'll be dead before Christmas, I'd bet me shirt on it. |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:25 PM (#2883263) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha Oooo Kayyyy. But mg doesn't get to vote on the new one either. Unless she has a red hat I don't know about. |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:34 PM (#2883271) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha Maybe go back to the Hereditary thing? LOL |
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09 Apr 10 - 07:36 PM (#2883274) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Well, Benny just appointed a Head Guy in Los Angeles who really distresses me. The new guy is Opus Dei, like right out of the Da Vinci Code... Oh, Mary, Rome has never, ever listened to a petition, a letter, or an advisory committee. Paul VI appointed a committee who told him to ease off on the birth control regulations, and he ignored them. There is an International Commission on English in the Liturgy that did a wonderful translation of the prayers for Mass into English that people actually speak, and Rome threw it out and substituted words like "consubstantial." Hell, Rome barely listens to an Ecumenical Council of all the world's bishops, as is evidenced by the dismantling of Vatican II that has happened over the last 30 years. So, as Paul Burke says, the best thing to do is ignore them. Benny is an old, old man. He'll die soon, and be replaced by somebody worse... -Joe-
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09 Apr 10 - 08:07 PM (#2883300) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. He'll need to be coated in teflon.. |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:11 PM (#2883305) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg We cannot ignore a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory. Do you understand? We are guilty of a serious sin of ommission if we ignore. We have to do something to get rid of him. Start writing your bishops..no start writing or keep writing to newspapers and attorney generals of your states and cc the bishop. mg |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM (#2883314) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: ClaireBear It's heartbreaking that MG is in the position of having to ask this question. I feel for her. It is troubling to see an organization with a top-down hierarchical structure that has no formal mechanism for giving a voice to those who are on the lowest rung in that hierarchy. This is one reason I left the Catholic church, despite my Jesuit edication and generations of family history, and joined the Episcopal one. There, the hierarchy is intended to work from the bottom up -- via the people's chosen representatives at least. Simplistically stated, the community have the power and are the employers of the clergy. This of course is not a perfect system either, but it's a lot better than an absolute monarchy, particularly one that will by its nature always place one gender in the position of being able to dictate the behavior of the other. I wish you peace, MG, in whatever course you choose. |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:24 PM (#2883316) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: ClaireBear And success, too. |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM (#2883323) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Mary, don't you think it's a bit strong to speak of "a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory." He allowed the guy to be transferred thirty years ago, instead of referring him for prosecution; and chances are that he did not realize how serious the problem was. He should have done better, but I do think you're being a bit overly dramatic. I do think it's important to avoid the soap opera and stick to the facts. So, what WERE the facts? We still don't know. It's time for the bishops to tell us. The time for secrecy is long past, because the bishops showed us they could not be trusted to act properly under cover of secrecy. -Joe- |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:37 PM (#2883325) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: michaelr The obvious solution is to abandon religious faith altogether. After all, it's just a crutch for the feeble-minded. Then all the popes, mullahs, and TV evangelists simply cease to matter. Why not try facing reality instead? |
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09 Apr 10 - 08:59 PM (#2883336) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Rapparee The US, Ireland, France, Germany and who knows where else are all "lost" to the Vatican. Italy, I suppose, as well. When nuns in the US tell the Conference of Bishops "We support Obama's health care bill because we're on the front lines and you're sitting in a Chancery somewhere" -- the bishops are losing their power AND their touch with the laity (not to mention the nuns). As the Vatican disassembles Vatican II and turns more and more to the "I'm right on heaven and on earth" of previous centuries, more and more laity will find the Vatican unnecessary. As friends of ours once said, "We don't let our Church interfere with our Religion." There are extraordinary things going on, great changes are coming -- but like the beginnings of the Reformation, the Vatican has its head in...the sand. |
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09 Apr 10 - 09:00 PM (#2883339) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Well, I suppose, Michael - but if you have faith, and it means something you, why abandon it? My faith is part of who I am. Yes, much of the basis of that faith may be myth, but myth can often lead to deep truth. Kinda like believing in art or poetry or the beauty of life and love and nature, ya know? - except that I believe in a Being who is the incarnation of all that is good. And in 61 years of life, that belief has never once led me to do something contrary to what is good. I do wrong lots of times, but not as part of my belief. Yes, there are lots of people who seem to use their beliefs as justification for wrongdoing. But it doesn't work that way for me. My faith is a source of joy and goodness, and a call to do justice. -Joe- |
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09 Apr 10 - 09:08 PM (#2883353) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox Reality? Would that be the same reality that the contents of the universe are merely a holographic projection from its borders, or the reality that the earth doesn't travel in a circle, but space time is curved, or the reality that solid objects are, when analyzed on a microscopic level, discovered to be comprised more than 90% of nothing but space? ... Stehen Hawking says that the probability of there being a personal God is extremely low. It is also true that the probablility f there being intelligent life in this universe is also extremely low. Yet here we are. What is real? What is normal? Whats it all about? Your guess is as good as mine. |
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09 Apr 10 - 09:11 PM (#2883355) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox A weak mind clings onto safe familiar things like tables and chairs and is unable to see beyond them. A scientific mind advocates no absolutes, but merely enquires and observes. |
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09 Apr 10 - 09:27 PM (#2883364) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D Mary...there are powers and voices much more influential than you or I or any of 'us' which are currently speaking out on this situation. There are few ways to depose someone like the pope, and even though he seems to have shown a lack of understanding of the problem, it merely shows he was being 'political' about his lapses back then, and any 'defender' could claim it's not grounds for impeachment...or whatever church routine might exist. Joe is right...the man is 80+ and can't be here a lot longer, and perhaps THIS scandal will affect who is voted in next time......maybe.....perhaps... |
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10 Apr 10 - 12:23 PM (#2883690) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: John P The Catholic Church should be hounded out of existence. They engaged in decades of aiding and abetting pedophiles. Anyone who knew anything and didn't call the police ought to be in jail. Since this includes, apparently, most of the top officers of the organization, the organization as whole is guilty of supporting international child rape. No, the organization IS an international child rape ring. We got the KKK and their ilk with the RICO law. We should do the same for the church, and hit them with a fine so huge that they have to sell everything and then still be in debt for the rest of time. All civilized nations should put out arrest warrants for the Pope and any other top church officials who ever knew anything about this and didn't report it. Harsh, you say? How about if it was any other group engaging in organized child rape for decades? Being a big church doesn't give them a free pass. |
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10 Apr 10 - 01:32 PM (#2883732) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: SINSULL I expect a "new" church to come out of this at least in the US. It will not sever its ties with Rome but it will also not bow to Rome's will. We will see. |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:00 PM (#2883741) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Well, if you just pray hard enough, Mary, that should do it, shouldn't it? Or you could just shoot him. |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM (#2883745) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow Whether a pope is wise or foolish or good or bad doesn't really make all that difference to me as a Catholic. It really isn't that kind of an operation. We've had some real shockers in the past and come through. There's a Spanish proverb that translates as "God writes straight with crooked lines". |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:22 PM (#2883758) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief I'm not sure you can arrest a foreign head of state. |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM (#2883761) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Tying young children (or the elderly or anyone) up is a crime? If they are out of control, what do you do? Sedate them with drugs? Beat them until they get in line like breaking a bronco? Go walk around the psych ward at your local hospital and tell me you want all the restrained people set free. Tell me you want violent rebellious children and teenagers or anyone to be allowed free reign without consequences. Of course, maybe these little angels were set upon by a closely knit society of deviants which exist in the RC church and are directed by the pope... maybe they have a secret handshake... and have a protocol for taking in these little angels and feeding and clothing them and educating them so they can subject them to nefarious sexual degradation. Quite a conspiracy that may exist, eh? |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM (#2883765) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS What on earth was that about? |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:44 PM (#2883767) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Are you saying that these err "little angels" as you put it, were being restrained for the purpose of preventing them from being "violent [&] rebellious"? Well I'd imagine that you'd be violent & rebellious if a man in a frock was buggering you. |
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10 Apr 10 - 02:55 PM (#2883770) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox I must say I find Gnu's comments puzzling and uncharacteristic. There are numerous ways of handling misbehaving children that don't involve ropes. However, the catholic church is made up of over a billion people, and less than 1% of them have any links with abuse, be they abusers or abused. The church is only going to collapse in the minds of those who want it to. the overwhelming majority of catholics will remain faithful. |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:20 PM (#2883784) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-third-strike.html#more This is by Andrew Sullivan. Please read every word of this and please write to Andrew Sullivan, Bill O'Reilly and Maureen Dowd, as well as your local newspapers. CC the bishops but don't bother writing directly to them..or do if you want. Especially if you are Catholic. And if you were for one minute, you still are, so don't worry about your status in the church. It can't be worse than the pope's. Somewhere in Andrews's blog is a picture in the styule of a holy card of a little altar boy. FInd it and weep. mg |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM (#2883786) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/page/3/ Scroll down about 2/3 of page and it should be there. mg |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM (#2883788) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Really? Who said the man in the frock was buggering you to begin with? You all should really back up and think this through. If you were placed in charge of 50 or 100 or more children, some of which were abandoned because the parents could NOT manage their behaviour for whatever reason, how would you deal with them? Would YOU drug them or beat them? Good lord. Are you all so insulated and pure that you have never heard that some human beings must be retrained to prevent injury to others or to themselves? If that is a crime I expect you to open up your home to such people. Take in an elderly dimentia patient and provide 24 hour supervision so they don't wander off into the cold in the middle of the night. Take in a child that needs the same. The RC church does. And, if they HAVE to be restrained, it's done. Uncharacteristic? No. Truthful. |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:41 PM (#2883793) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS I see Gnu... You do come out with some weird shit man. |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM (#2883800) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu CS... I wish we all lived in your perfect world. Tell me, how would you deal with with a violent individual you were charged with? Seriously... own up and tell me. |
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10 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM (#2883807) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS The children in question were tied up by the Priest, prior to being sexually assaulted by him. Otherwise, in answer to your question, I'd ask social services for assistance rather than tying up anyone - unless my life depended on it - which is highly unlikely in the instance of a child much smaller than me. I do know it was a method of restraint much abused by bad patents in the old days. I have older friends who recall being tied to their cots while their parents went out to party for the evening. |
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10 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM (#2883812) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: gnu Oh? I don't recall that part about the sexual assault being in the first post. So, I think I will leave youse all to your imaginations and simply say that my posts are factual and give opinions and food for thought. If you don't want to think, have fun with it. BTW... social services takes deranged people to the proper medical authorities and facilities where they are "tied up" if required, so that you don't have to take any responsibility for your pontification. Walk a mile... walk a mile before you cast stones. |
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10 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM (#2883814) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Gnu, sorry - I imagine that you didn't know the details of the case and that's where your posts were coming from? Or maybe you don't believe them? But otherwise, it's a very iffy idea to me to tie up children, however "rebellious" they might be. I can't run with that, at all. |
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10 Apr 10 - 04:10 PM (#2883816) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS Oh, cross posted there! I'll walk a mile in the shoes of social services, only when I've been properly trained to do so. We have social services so that people properly experienced can make the best choices for the care of "deranged" people. Otherwise, we'd all still have secret "Mad Aunts" (brothers/nieces/wives etc.) locked up in the attic or basement. |
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10 Apr 10 - 04:33 PM (#2883831) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner We cannot ignore a pope who has assisted in the aftermath at least of tying boys up in a rectory. Do you understand? We are guilty of a serious sin of ommission if we ignore. MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations? Reports of the incident(s) are sketchy. My understanding is that the priest was tried - by civil authorities - and sentenced to three months probation. That seems pretty lenient for tying little boys up, a charge that could amount to kidnapping and a life sentence. That the priest did SOMETHING he should not have done is farily certain. I'd like to know more about what really happened. Wouldn't you? |
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10 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM (#2883843) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox I remember watching a fly on the wall documentary about a group of teenagers, who were taken to south africa by their social workers for the adventure of a lifetime, in which they would work with animals on a game reserve. Nearly all the kids in question had had traumatic early childhoods and were 'troublemakers' back home in the inner city. The idea was to get them out of the box so they could have a chance to see it from a different angle. For most of the kids this was a lifechanging experience, and many went on to pursue their hopes and aspirations and developed careers. But there was one girl who was simply unable to benefit from the opportunity. She was unable to compare herself with the local people, who had it much tougher but were able to be considerate, optimistic and co-operate with each other. She was also unable to operate within the boundaries that were set by the group leaders, and her way of dealing with it was to throw tantrums. She was warned very clearly that if her behaviour didn't change that she would be sedated, bound, and put on a flight back to the UK where she would then be released ... back into the wild ... as it were ... She sadly couldn't help herself though, and she ended up throwing yet another unreasonable wobbly, in response to which the group followed through with their warning, and restrained her, bound her, sedated her and put her on a plane. Se had not been violent, but her behaviour was simply unmanageable using other means, and they could not afford to allow her to blackmail them with bad behaviour. So sometimes young people are bound by their carers when there is no other alternative. |
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10 Apr 10 - 05:06 PM (#2883853) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Apparently the church is talking about introducing child protection schemes world-wide based on those in operation within the Catholic Church in England and Wales. Any bets on the next pope being English? How'll that go down in Ireland? |
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10 Apr 10 - 05:20 PM (#2883861) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow An interesting idea - Vatican III |
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10 Apr 10 - 05:28 PM (#2883864) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,CS "Our goal is to help get the Catholic Church to be more like Jesus." As a person interested in living Spirituality and indeed Christianity, it sounds fairly sensible to me. |
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10 Apr 10 - 06:30 PM (#2883897) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. MG, I'm not going to accuse you of sin, but don't you think it's a omission for YOU not to verify this story before making accusations? Its OK, Bee- Mary just forgot to put her tinfoil hat on, again. |
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11 Apr 10 - 06:30 AM (#2884102) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: banjoman As a Catholic of almost 67 years and having survived an education by those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers, I have thought long & hard about my faith. My conclusion is that it has nothing to do with the Vatican or anything else within organised religion. The reason that I still go to Mass is because I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to. Having said that, I have great respect for those hard working priests and laity who continue behind the scenes to provide support and counselling for so many, including those who have been victims of abuse. Remember that it is a small minority (perhaps inclding Pope Benedict) who are bringing the church and religion in general into disrepute. |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:31 AM (#2884138) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonnie Shaljean A small minority, but powerful. And that's the underlying problem. Because We Can. Without a hierarchical power structure (which in Ireland extended right down to the local priests) the situation would not have become so bad. People simply did not dare question, or cross, the Church. Power did what power always eventually does. > I believe in the gifts that Jesus Christ gave us and it is not important which denomination we belong to. HEAR, HEAR. Well spoken, and I could not agree more. But it will be small comfort to Rome. |
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11 Apr 10 - 11:37 AM (#2884251) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D If there were indeed a Jesus, Peter and all the others and IF they had the divine nature attributed to them, (there is, after all, a difference of opinion about all that), what I know about the legends suggests that 'true belief' in what began as a simple man with strong powers and empathy for other, does not require huge cathedrals, an enormous hierarchy, an entire city-state owned and administered for propagation of the faith, and a set of rules and a celibate priesthood to oversee those rules. It seems obvious to me and many others that the current problems are a direct result of too much money, power and structure striving to retain all those trappings FOR the basic purpose of just having them, no matter what the basic message is supposed to be. We see the same type of "close ranks and hide scandals" in police forces, the military and various political and corporate organizations. That used to be easier before all the modern technology made 'connecting the dots' and reporting abuses easier for both the abused and the investigators. The church will need to EITHER adapt and clean house or face being broken up into smaller, independent groups. |
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11 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM (#2884320) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: akenaton Posted to the other thread by mistake! "Just been reading that studies have found, people of "homosexual orientation" make up between 20 and 50 percent of the priesthood. Given the very high volume of homosexual assaults(not paedophelia, paedophelia is in fact quite rare in the Church)do you not think that this represents a link between male homosexuality and the abuse of post pubescent teenagers and young adults. Let the perpetrators be brought to justice....find out the truth about the sexual behaviour of priests. The cover up was a separate crime which should also be investigated, but even if the pope was forced to resign, the abuse of youths would continue until a proper balance of sexual orientation is struck among priests. The longer I live, the more I become convinced that homosexual practice and the abuse pubescent boys is linked. Scrap the rule and ordain married heterosexual priests....the abuse will fall sharply." |
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11 Apr 10 - 02:38 PM (#2884336) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke banjoman- I totally agree. The decent in the Catholic Church- as in the rest of society- vastly outnumber the vile. But the big problem we have to face- the Church and society as a whole- is why the decent are ALWAYS outweighed by the vile. The child abuse scandal could be taken as a parable of our society's whole approach to inequality. Sexual abuse is not the only destroyer of the human soul. Poverty- by which don't mean only lack of money, but in the wider sense of the denial of opportunity to develop- is the enemy. And it is profitable- the powerless can be deprived of resources and land (see Europe, America and China in Africa), culture (plundered for fashion - Callino Custur Me perhaps), self respect, and finally, when defenceless, of power over their own body cavities- to me there's not a great gulf between the Catholic (or in former times Church of England) minister abusing his charges, and the sex tourism of South East Asia. So the whole scandal to me falls down to, how do the decent folks- Catholic, Baptist, C of E, Jewish, Muslim, atheist, whatever- combine without creating a new organisation with the power structures that created the abuse in the first place? |
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11 Apr 10 - 03:22 PM (#2884350) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner ...those vindictive and morrally depraved Christian Brothers... They make GREAT brandy though! |
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11 Apr 10 - 03:58 PM (#2884370) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg I think there is a mechanism for the pope to resign, and that is for every one of us who hates this drama to insist that he do. I would suspect that even now he is looking for a way out...he could simply say I do not have the stamina for this, or the credentials and I am a living embodiment of the scandal. People have said Cardinal O'Malley was good at getting things in order..I don't know anything about him but Pope O'Malley has a nice ring to it. I have written to the Seattle Times and Portland Oregonian, and plan to find out who the archibishops are of Clermont Iowa, and Dingle Ireland, where my ancestors are from. Anyone know? I will google. No mas, no more. mg |
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11 Apr 10 - 04:35 PM (#2884382) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer This is all well and good, Mary, but your friend Andrew Sullivan didn't tell the whole story, and you have built your whole case on his fallacies. Ratzinger/Benedict did not protect the criminal priest in any way. The priest did his crime, and went to prison. He did not function as a priest after he was convicted. What Ratzinger/Benedict failed to do, was to follow the schedule and specifications for laicization that Andrew Sullivan demands. Most of the time, laicization has little significance, because the person almost always has stopped functioning as a priest many years before the laicization is finalized. It is important that a sex offender priest has his "faculties" withdrawn by his bishop, so that he is no longer allowed to function as a priest. But Andrew Sullivan has apparently defined laicization ("defrocking") as the Holy Grail of punishment for sex offender priests, and Mary Garvey apparently believes Mr. Sullivan and his putative expertise in canon law. If Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Garvey seek a Holy Grail, what they should seek is a criminal conviction and a prison sentence for the sex-offender priest. And in this case, the offender was sent to prison, and the issue of laicization is moot. And Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Garvey are barking up the wrong tree. -Joe Offer- |
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11 Apr 10 - 04:49 PM (#2884388) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg I believe, but could be corrected, that the priest went to jail for 3 months. He also abused afterwards and was allowed to volunteer with children. Wrong tree? Perhaps. Right tree? Perhaps. I do not care if he is allowed to function as a priest or not. In many situations I would say let him, under full disclosure and supervision. The day will come when we will need every priest we can muster in WWIII or whatever. I care if he is allowed to function as a child abuser or not. He was. mg |
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11 Apr 10 - 04:56 PM (#2884391) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Emma B The document trail Documents detailing efforts begun in the early 1980s by officials of the Catholic Church in California to support the petition of a convicted sex offender, the Rev. Stephen Kiesle, to leave the priesthood. As Joe said 'It is important that a sex offender priest has his "faculties" withdrawn by his bishop, so that he is no longer allowed to function as a priest.' which makes the final document dated May 11, 1988 from Maurine Behrend, in the Oakland Diocese's Youth Ministries Office all the more disturbing as she expresses her frustration that "a convicted child molester is currently the youth ministry coordinator at St. Joseph's Parish." |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:23 PM (#2884402) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Well, Emma - I would suspect that the person was functioning as a lay volunteer member of a youth ministry team in 1988, and not as a priest. He committed his crimes between November of 1977 and May, 1978, and he ceased functioning as a priest in 1978. Note the date the ex-priest was serving as a volunteer - 1988. Since about 2005, all but one Catholic diocese in the US has required the fingerprinting of all church employees, and of all volunteers who work with youth. I would hope this convicted criminal would not slip through the cracks nowadays, but it appears that he did - 22 years ago. -Joe- P.S. Emma and Mary Garvey are referring to the same case. It took me a little while to figure that out. |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:37 PM (#2884411) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha OK, I'm not trying to be accusatory here, but what I do wonder is, if you 'believe' in this Church, and also 'ignore' and advocate 'ignoring' the parts you don't like, or don't agree with, why not find another church? The Episcopal Church is nearly the same as the Catholic, but more personal freedom as far as beliefs, more freedom for women, etc. I just don't get the 'believe but ignore' part. |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:43 PM (#2884414) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Emma B Mary, Kiesle was sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory. When his probation ended in 1981, Kiesle asked to leave the priesthood and the diocese submitted papers to Rome to defrock him. (see 'the document trail' above) In his earliest letter to Ratzinger, Bishop John S.Cummins warned that returning Kiesle to ministry would cause more of a scandal than stripping him of his priestly powers. He informed the Vatican that the priest took a leave of absence and met with a therapist and his probation officer during the three years. It's not clear from the file where Kiesle lived during those years, but Cummins mentions temporary assignments in neighboring dioceses that never worked out. Kiesle was ultimately laicized on Feb. 13, 1987 but continued to volunteer with children After leaving the priesthood he married but was arrested and charged in 2002 with 13 counts of child molestation dating from from the 1970s. All but two of these were thrown out after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down as unconstitutional a California law extending the statute of limitations. In 2004 he pleaded no contest to a felony for molesting a young girl in his Truckee home in 1995 and was sentenced to six years in state prison. Now aged now 63 he is a registered sex offender and his address islisted on the Megan's Law sex registry. Bishop Cummins is now retired - he described the situation under the previous Pope as .... "These things were slow and their idea of thoroughness was a little more than ours. We were in a situation that was hands-on, with personal reaction." |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM (#2884423) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner Kiesle was sentenced in 1978 to three years' probation after pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct for tying up and molesting two young boys in a San Francisco Bay area church rectory. I said three months in a previous post. Three years is correct. It still seems odd that an offense of that nature was regarded as a misdemeanor. |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:57 PM (#2884424) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Because every institution and every organization has its faults, Sorcha. So, the choice is to work to fix the places you call your own, or to keep searching for some new place where somebody else has already done the housecleaning. The Catholic Church is where I come from, and I've lived a good life as a Catholic. The faith it teaches is MY faith, a faith that has brought joy and meaning to my life. I don't like the way some Catholics interpret the faith, but I am not required to accept their interpretation. The Catholic Church has allowed me many opportunities to do what I think ought to be done in the area of serving the poor and the causes of social justice and civil rights and peace. It gives me a platform from which I have been able to teach and serve thousands of people over the years. I am appalled by the widespread child abuse and coverups, but those things are not an integral part of the Catholic Church; and much has been done to fix those problems in the US. And the child molestation and coverups are not as widespread and people seem to think. From 1950-2000 in my diocese for example, the molestations took place in ten to 15 of the 99 parishes in the diocese, and there were ten priests accused out of about 300. And in my diocese, the bishop didn't cover the offenses up. I suppose I could be an Episcopalian or Lutheran or Unitarian or Methodist or Jew, and I do feel welcomed and comfortable in all of those denominations; but those religious aren't where I come from. The Catholic Church is my home. It has lots of problems, but it is MY home, and where I feel at home. So, I'll stay where I am and continue to work to fix the problems. The problems were horrible - but the vast majority of American Catholics were not affected by them. Same thing goes for drunk driving. It is indeed a horrible problem - and some people, most scandalously law enforcement officers and politicians, have not been prosecuted for the drunk driving crimes they have committed. There are far too many drunk drivers in my county and some have caused death and serious industry. So, should I move to another county? If I stay here, does that mean I believe in drunk driving? -Joe- |
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11 Apr 10 - 06:03 PM (#2884430) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Sorcha OK, I guess that sorta makes sense. And YES, I DO understand about the Blue Wall. It happens more often than the Public likes to think. I DO know about that. |
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11 Apr 10 - 11:53 PM (#2884567) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg We are commanded to be Catholics by our church. We didn't seek out a compatible faith. I would probably be a Druid or a Unitarian if we were allowed to do that. I believe people are assigned to religions, like Baptist or Muslim or whatever and must do their best as one of whatever. In my case, my mother was a Baptist, so I consider myself half Baptist/Protestant. I think it is not a good idea to mix religions unless both people are wishy washy or at least one is. I did not have the good part of Catholicism, and there are some fun, pleasant parts, because my mother interpreted everything through her hellfire and damnation Baptistism. I would be a much better Catholic if I had gotten it from both sides of my family, and had experienced the pleasanter parts of it. But to each his or her own. mg |
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12 Apr 10 - 12:43 AM (#2884585) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Well, Mary, I'm sure many Catholic priests worth their salt would tell you to check out the Unitarians if you're unhappy as a Catholic. You'd find a lot of former Catholics there. You also might find a place that would welcome your singing of your wonderful songs. Modern pagan groups also have much to offer. I've spent time with both pagans and Unitarians, and I've enjoyed both. I think God will be happier if you find a religion where you're happy. Life is too short to spend it bogged down in surroundings you hate. Yes, I'm very happy as a Catholic, but I choose Catholic communities that I think are healthy and where I can feel comfortable. And people will tell you that I was instrumental in fixing a couple of parishes that were not very healthy at one time. One is where I got married, and one is where I am now - and I love both of those congregations. -Joe- |
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12 Apr 10 - 03:33 AM (#2884635) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonzo3legs Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars! |
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12 Apr 10 - 01:31 PM (#2884921) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D "I believe people are assigned to religions, like Baptist or Muslim or whatever ..." *I* believe that is just silly....(sorry, but I can't think of a circuitous way to say it.) *I* was raised a Methodist, didn't feel 'right' there, tried being a Unitarian, and that was better, but still a sort of ritual and overlay that was not 'me'...so I quit...and don't belong to any particular group, and haven't for 45 years. I am aware that being raised in a particular religious tradition can, especially if it was regular & rigorous, imprint certain habits and feelings on one's...'psyche'?...and that is what bothers me. Having certain routines and beliefs deeply imprinted can easily deter a person from looking at alternatives and from recognizing various forms of reasoning. I DO see that, if one does choose to remain in the church one is used to and finds strength and comfort in its ideals, that working like Joe Offer does within the group can be both beneficial and satisfying. If more folks did it like Joe does, we'd not need to complain and worry about theological differences. |
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12 Apr 10 - 01:34 PM (#2884923) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Who is it do you figure does the "assigning", Bill? Maybe its something like desks in kindergarten. |
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12 Apr 10 - 02:47 PM (#2884962) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D No Greg...I'm sure what she means is just what I expanded on: being born into a a group and having it become deeply part of us...I just didn't like the concept that suggests that we NOW have no control or say in the matter. (well, I hope that's all that was meant. I hope there is no belief that some 'higher power' (even more powerful than kindergarten teachers) do it to us.) |
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12 Apr 10 - 03:12 PM (#2884975) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Amos We are commanded to be Catholics by our church. Placing yourself as subordinate to any chain of merely human (and arguably often highly aberrant) managers is entirely your individual responsibility. Your right to leave is a sovereign one that cannot be gainsaid by temporal authority or church officials. A command channel with no-one agreeing to be commanded is much like a war which no-one shows up for. A |
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12 Apr 10 - 05:05 PM (#2885038) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Lox "Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!" Monty Python would have disagreed ... |
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12 Apr 10 - 07:48 PM (#2885131) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Well, there were people who taught that "outside the (Catholic) Church there is no salvation" (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus), and I guess the teaching is still on the books - but even grade school in the 1950's, we were taught all sorts of exceptions and loopholes. Nowadays, even the conservative EWTN has mitigating information on its Website. There was an infamous but very popular Jesuit priest, Father Feeney, who preached a very rigid interpretation of this doctrine that bordered on hatefulness. In an act of delicious irony, the Catholic Church excommunicated Feeney for refusing to back down on his teaching. So, Feeney died "outside the Church." But to this day, there are Catholics who insist Feeney was right. I think Jesus saved everyone, bringing the generosity and abundance of divine love to all humanity - but that's my belief, and most of you know I'm a damn liberal. -Joe- |
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12 Apr 10 - 08:01 PM (#2885143) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: beeliner So, Feeney died "outside the Church I seem to remember that the excommunication was lifted shortly before his death. |
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12 Apr 10 - 08:28 PM (#2885178) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Yeah, I should have read the fine print. Feeney was excommunicated in 1953, but apparently reconciled with the Catholic Church in 1972 and was not required to recant his teachings. He died in 1978. -Joe- |
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13 Apr 10 - 09:50 AM (#2885548) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars!" Wonder if they've got any raving homophobes - if so, you should feel at home Jim Carroll |
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13 Apr 10 - 10:36 AM (#2885577) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jack Campin Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars! I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay. |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM (#2885609) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Mooh Jack Campin said, "I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay." Based on what? I've known quite a few myself, starting with my father, many of his friends and colleagues, my parish priests, and many others from places I've visited. I suppose there may be some who might be gay, but half? I doubt it, and I see little evidence that it's even relevant. I'd like to know what your evidence is. Peace, Mooh. |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM (#2885623) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. I'd like to see the evidence that the Roman Catholic Clergy has a numerical superiority in pederasts over any other religious denomination or for that matter the population at large. REAL evidence, not supposition or anecdotal. |
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13 Apr 10 - 01:56 PM (#2885705) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. Church of England for me if it's all the same to you - no raving queers for vicars! I don't really think that comment was meant to be entirely serious, folks... |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM (#2885717) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "REAL evidence, not supposition or anecdotal." Try Ireland where the church is rapidly heading for burnout. Two official reports leading to resignations of several bishops - not enough yet, but more to come. Evidence of not only large scale paedophilia stretching over several decades, but also of a culture of abuse within the church, where child-rapists were protected by the hierarchy, who not only did not report their criminal behaviour but moved the abusers on to other parishes to continue their abuse - oh, and then forced the victims into a vow of silence, forbidding them to speak about the atrocities committed against them, except to officers of the very church who facilitated the abuse, It now turns out that the Catholic Church in Cyprus, Germany, Canada and Switzerland (at least) were at it as well - real enough for you - or maybe it's not just Catholics but a 'Christian' thing? Jim Carroll |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:20 PM (#2885721) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Nice anecdote, Jim, mow where's the evidence? |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:28 PM (#2885730) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening in in far worse numbers in countries with greater social and economic problems? Places where there are practically public markets for child sex trade? Places where errant priests were sometimes sent to get rid of them? mg |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM (#2885735) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T "Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening in in far worse numbers in countries with greater social and economic problems? Places where there are practically public markets for child sex trade?" Using the RC Church's own logic, one would expect the behaviour to occur at least in the same statistical number in most areas(though one could suspect in greater numbers in some of the areas noted. That alone would justify the logic behind a belief that there are much more than reported yet....and it is likely the RC church knows of some of these, if not all that have not been made public. Thus the call to come clean and open the books, since many of these would be considered crimes in most if not all societies. |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM (#2885741) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jack Campin I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay. Based on what? Based on them telling me. You can be a gay priest in the CofE (in the places I've lived, anyway) without anybody being very bothered about it. And that's been the case for decades. |
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13 Apr 10 - 03:31 PM (#2885760) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer I would like to point out that in the Kiesle case that is the main subject of this thread, the molester/priest committed his crimes between November of 1977 and May, 1978, and he ceased functioning as a priest in August, 1978. He remained a priest until he was laicized in 1987, but was not allowed to function as a priest after 1978. His local bishop, John Cummins, took action and removed him from ministry as soon as the crimes were discovered. He was prosecuted for his crime. He received a suspended 3-year jail sentence and was on probation. Perhaps not the severe sentence he deserved, but that's a matter for the criminal justice system. Child molestation is one of the hardest crimes for a prosecutor to prove, so criminal charges are often settled by plea bargain, dismissed, or never filed. After his completion of probation, he was most likely forgotten - I'm afraid that happens a lot in a free society. And since he was a child molester, he continued to seek opportunities to have contact with children - by volunteering to work with youth groups. But do note that in this case, the local bishop took action quickly and removed the priest from ministry. The fact that laicization took a long time, is moot - the man did not function as a priest after his bishop removed him from ministry. The previous thread discussed the case of Lawrence C. Murphy, who served at St. John's School for the Deaf in Milwaukee from 1950 to 1974. The Archbishop of Milwaukee forced Murphy to resign in 1974, because of allegations of sexual abuse of children at the school. After that, Murphy lived in a home his family owned in far northern Wisconsin. He was never given an official assignment as a priest after his removal in 1974, but he served occasionally as a vacation substitute, celebrating Mass at various churches in his area. There were no incidents of sexual misconduct reported after 1974. He died in 1998, still a priest - but never had a job as a priest after he was removed from employment in 1974. Again, the local bishop took action, and also referred the case to local law enforcement authorities, who did not file charges. Most likely, both of these cases could have been handled better. Most likely, every criminal case could have been handled better. But the fact of the matter is that both of these cases were handled by church authorities, and the priest-molesters were removed from ministry. But Andrew Sullivan and other reporters are out to get Rome, so they've set the standards higher. They seem to be using these two cases to attempt to prove that Rome wasn't doing its job. Even though these cases were handled locally and the priest/molesters were removed from ministry, Sullivan and the others now thing the case isn't complete until Rome puts its imprimatur on the whole thing by laicizing the offending priest with alacrity. It's like demanding that President Obama sign off on the sentence of every criminal in Tucumcari - and if Obama doesn't, then he's "soft on crime." If a priest is not allowed to function as a priest, laicization offers little benefit to anyone. The priest is still technically required to remain celibate and to obey his bishop in clerical matters, so laicization allows him to get married in the Catholic Church and to function in the Catholic Church as a lay person. The unlaicized priest who is not allowed to function as a priest, is somewhat of a pariah in the Catholic Church. Seems to me, that Mr. Sullivan should prefer the criminal priest to remain a pariah. But yes, punitive laicization is a clear sign that Rome disapproves of child molestation. It just seems to me that it misses the point. The main things are to remove the priest-molester from ministry and to refer him to criminal prosecution. If the local bishop has done that, then I think he's done his duty. And if the bishop has done what he's supposed to do, there's no need for Rome to do anything further. It's true that Catholic neoconservatives contend that the only true authority in the Catholic Church is the Pope, so they don't completely trust any decision that hasn't been made in Rome. But that isn't the way the Catholic Church is supposed to work. The Pope is "primus inter pares" (first among equals); but in most situations, the buck is supposed to stop at the desk of the local bishop. If the local bishop fails to handle an incident of child abuse or molestation, that's another matter. If Mr. Sullivan has his way, then Rome will be involved in every such case - thus furthering the "cult of the pope" and limiting the autonomy of local dioceses. No, thank you, Mr. Sullivan - I prefer that Rome keeps its grimy political hands out of the day-to-day activities of my parish and my diocese. And I'm mad as hell that Rome has rejected the American translations of prayers Americans use at Mass, and that Rome is investigating women religious (nuns) in the U.S. The crimes against children in the Catholic Church and the subsequent coverups were a horrible thing. But as I've said before, the vast majority of parishes had no such crimes, and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Please remember that the number of priest-molesters was about five percent. I have no data on the number of bishops who covered up crimes - but I suspect the number is far lower than people might think. -Joe- |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:26 PM (#2885799) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: maple_leaf_boy There was a fifteen million dollar settlement in Eastern Canada, paid out to sexual abuse victims by priests, and the parishoners were told that the money would come from the collection plates. The parishoners in that area think that the Vatican should be paying that money, but they won't. The bishop of that diocese was then charged of possession and trafficking child pornography, and is now being charged of sexual abuse. The Catholic Church is in real trouble, because this scandal has taken place in several countries, and people are now leaving the church because of it. |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:28 PM (#2885804) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke I think Jesus saved everyone If Bonzo's saved, I don't want to be. |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:31 PM (#2885810) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow The serious fault has been where there has been a failure to stop child abusers having continued opportunities to abuse, and that is a terrible fault. It seems to have arisen primarily out of attempts to avoid scandal. However in itself seeking to deal with this kind of thing out of public view is not an unreasonable thing to do - the failure lay in doing so in ways that did not recognise that the absolute priority has to be the welfare of the children involved. I think it's reasonable to hope that that isn't going to happen these days. Here's a quote from a typical contemporary diocesean policy: "The diocese confirms that in matters of the alleged abuse of children the 'Paramount Principle' will be maintained, that is the welfare of the child is the paramount consideration in all matters concerning the protection of children. |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:44 PM (#2885824) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Is this really true? I am under the impression that exactly the opposite was true. Is there any example of any bishop who went to the police first? mg |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM (#2885830) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Emma B Joe, I posted the link to the 'document trail' to demonstrate that the local bishop and clergy had indeed handled the situation with the convicted Kiesle 'correctly'; although, retrospectively, it may have been better to have approached this as a referral of "graviora delicta" rather than a request for laicization from Kiesle himself However we are not made aware of any supporting material about the criminal case so it's not possible to claim a Vatican 'cover up' in any form in this case just a resistance to 'release' a young priest. The only thing I disagree with you about that is that is a 'moot point' as the case then languished for four years at the Vatican before Ratzinger finally wrote to Oakland Bishop John Cummins during which California church officials wrote to Ratzinger at least three times to check on the status of Kiesle's case and he returned to suburban Pinole (where he had served as associate pastor from 1972 to 1975) in 1985 to volunteer as a youth minister at St. Joseph Church, even though it appears apparent that he was not actually functioning as a priest at this time but was also not a member of the laiety either! It was two more years before Kiesle was removed from the priesthood The Catholic Church, because of its size, has much in common with the largest super tanker and appears to be unable to react with any alacrity or, it would appear, identification with the local situation even, in the time that it took to deal with the communications - it is maybe here that changes also need to be made. Joe, I have respect for people who continue to fight for what they believe in within an organization - I myself attempted this for several years too although, in my case, to no avail except some personal distress. and disillusionment. |
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13 Apr 10 - 05:22 PM (#2885846) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Evidence...." The evidence is in two official reports published and accepted both by the church and the Irish State. Try googling The Ryan and Murphy reports, then Letterfrack and Ferns Industrial schools, that'll give you a head start. There are other investigatiions in the offing in diocese not yet investigated, not to mention the behaviour of those who had charge of the young women in the Magdalene Laundries who were sexually and physically abused while under their 'protection'. Then there's Canada, Cyprus, Germany and Switzerland to hit the fan yet. The Pope has yet to answer charges of collusion in the German abuses - but, of course - he won't. The only question hanging over the whole affair is why the abusers and their accomplices haven't been banged up for their crimes and the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy. I do hope you enjoyed your trip to The Planet Zog - you obviously haven't spent too much time on this one over the last couple of years! Jim Carroll |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:07 PM (#2885884) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Click here for the database of bishop-accountability.org. This is an organization that is very critical of the bishops' handling of the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church in the U.S. This database attempts to keep track of all the accusations against priests in the US, and their handling and disposition. As you can see, there are lots of instances where the cases were horribly mishandled. BUT you will also see that most of the time, the bishops did deal with the cases, and did not cover them up. Many, many cases were referred to law enforcement authorities for prosecution, and many of these molesters were convicted of criminal offenses. There were coverups, but the coverups were relatively rare. There is no excuse for the crimes and coverups that did occur - but it is important to remember that, as with any crime, the vast majority of people did not participate in the crime in any way. It's easy to get a distorted view of crime from the newspapers, and some people live in constant fear of crime because of what they read. Politicians are constantly accusing each other of being "soft on crime" - but the fact of the matter is that almost nobody approves of crime. Different people deal with crime in different ways. It IS a serious problem, but life goes on despite it. The sex crimes in the Catholic Church ARE a serious problem - but those crimes are no reason for people to stop feeding the hungry and visiting the sick and burying the dead. Life goes on, despite crime. And most people, aren't criminals. Jim Carroll, with his usual dramatic flair, says, "the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy." Following Jim's flawless logic, I suppose one could also say, "the real mystery is why adult males are allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by adult males." The percentage of adult males committing crimes against children, is about the same as the percentage of Catholic priests committing those crimes - even in Ireland. Now, Jim, let me make it clear that I do not approve of crimes against children in any way. I just think it is unfair to suspect every priest or every member of any class* of such crimes. If the crimes are committed, then prosecute the criminals - not their families, not their neighbors, and not their religious affiliations. -Joe Offer- *class: any group of people having some characteristic in common. This word is sometimes used to refer to social and economic classes, but that is not the only meaning of the word. Emma - your "document trail" referred to the same case for which Mary Garvey condemns the Pope. I was referring to Mary's comments, not to yours. It may be that the Pope was guilty of wrongdoing in connection with the child abuse and molestation - that has yet to be proved. |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:10 PM (#2885887) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,MG Adult males should not be alone with children. Neither should adult females, some of whom are monsters. Everyone pretty much knows that. For their own protection as well as that of children. And here is a story about my theology or philosophy professor at my Alma Mater, Seattle University..Father Toulouse. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/the-pedophiles-paradise/Content?oid=1065017 |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:34 PM (#2885899) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Jim Carroll: The situation you cite in Ireland - if factual- doesn't answer the questions I asked. Try again. Mary: Does anyone really think that if this is happening in Norway and the Netherlands that is not really happening ......I am under the impression..... To hell with your "impressions" & what you, and others, subjectively suppose- what can you document? |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM (#2885907) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: McGrath of Harlow Adult males should not be alone with children. Neither should adult females Presumably children shouldn't be alone with other children either, given some of the stuff that can happen. Groups of people can do pretty awful stuiff too. Maybe if everyone avoids being in anybody else's company at anytime, that would be best. |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:47 PM (#2885915) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief There was an Isaac Asimov story about that -- the planet where everybody lived miles from the next person, and they talked by the 1950s equivalent of Skype™ video. Seemed an unfortunate place. But no doubt safer than here. Although the novel was about a murder on said planet, so maybe not. |
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14 Apr 10 - 05:46 AM (#2886222) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "The situation you cite in Ireland - if factual- doesn't answer the questions I asked. Try again." The situation in Ireland is most certainly factual - and becoming more so as further information is winkled out. Is there any proof that The Catholic church is the worst? It is the one that has been examined and found very much wanting; if it is not the worst then a question-mark has been placed over all religions - which is fine by me. The behaviour of the Catholic clergy (as a whole) is horrific enough to condemn it to its own hell - even if it continues to evade earthly justice. Jim Carroll |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:12 AM (#2886243) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonnie Shaljean The situation in Ireland is factual, all right. Plenty of proof out there if you care to look. |
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14 Apr 10 - 07:36 AM (#2886296) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T "the vast majority of parishes had no such crimes, and the vast majority of bishops did not cover up the crimes that happened in their dioceses. Please remember that the number of priest-molesters was about five percent. I have no data on the number of bishops who covered up crimes - but I suspect the number is far lower than people might think". Where is the proof of all that? |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:05 AM (#2886315) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll Five percent Joe - where did that come from? I get a little tired in pointing out the extent and time limits of the two enquiries held so far. As far as the cover-up - that extended from fellow priests to, directly, at least three Popes. It wasn't just a few abuses but a whole culture of abuse - accepted and covered up. Jim Carroll |
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14 Apr 10 - 10:18 AM (#2886413) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll PS - Even if I accepted the five percent figure, which I don't, or not without some proof to back it up, considering the size of the Catholic Church that's a lot of abuse by a lot of people. Jim Carrill |
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14 Apr 10 - 10:40 AM (#2886430) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Ya gonna get around to addressing my questions with factual information any time soon, Jim? |
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14 Apr 10 - 10:57 AM (#2886443) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Mooh I've known quite a few CofE/Anglican/Episcopalian priests over the years (in New Zealand, Scotland and England) and I'd estimate that more than half of them were gay. Based on what? Based on them telling me. You can be a gay priest in the CofE (in the places I've lived, anyway) without anybody being very bothered about it. And that's been the case for decades. Seems like a high percentage to me, but I'll take your word for it. Peace, Mooh. |
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14 Apr 10 - 12:26 PM (#2886515) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Ya gonna get around to addressing my questions with factual information any time soon, Jim? " What 'factual' information are you looking for? The habitual rapes and sexual abuse is a matter of record - see the Murphy and the Ryan reports (I suggest you let your own fingers do the walking on that one) but to give you a hand www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/ . If you are suggesting that other churches exceeded the Catholic score - fine by me - why aren't they banged up as the RC perpetrators should be? What is your point - that none of it happened, or it was ok that it did because other churches were at it as well? Jim Carroll PS - Failing to find an concise summary of the report - here is the nearest bite-size one I could come up with. 'Endemic' rape and abuse of Irish children in Catholic care, inquiry finds Beatings and humiliation by nuns and priests were common at institutions that held up to 30,000 children, Ryan report states Rape and sexual molestation were "endemic" in Irish Catholic church-run industrial schools and orphanages, a report revealed today. The nine-year investigation found that Catholic priests and nuns for decades terrorised thousands of boys and girls in the Irish Republic, while government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rape and humiliation. The high court judge Sean Ryan today unveiled the 2,600-page final report of Ireland's commission into child abuse, which drew on testimony from thousands of former inmates and officials from more than 250 church-run institutions. Police were called to the news conference amid angry scenes as victims were prevented from attending. More than 30,000 children deemed to be petty thieves, truants or from dysfunctional families – a category that often included unmarried mothers – were sent to Ireland's austere network of industrial schools, reformatories, orphanages and hostels from the 1930s until the last facilities shut in the 1990s. The findings prompted the new Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, to say that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. In an interview to be broadcast tonight on ITV News at Ten, he said: "I think of those in religious orders and some of the clergy in Dublin who have to face these facts from their past which instinctively and quite naturally they'd rather not look at. That takes courage, and also we shouldn't forget that this account today will also overshadow all of the good that they also did." The Irish Survivors of Child Abuse (Isoca), an organisation set up to help victims, condemned the newly appointed head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales for his remarks. "Rubbish is too kind of word for what the archbishop has said. I believe I have heard this kind of twaddle uttered by politicians in Ireland like Bertie Ahern, the former prime minister. It is the verbiage of un-reason and it leaves me cold. What the Archbishop really has to do is take a long hard look at the character and nature of the people he is talking about and ask himself if they are capable of being good," said Patrick Walsh. The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order, and supervisors pursued policies that increased the danger. Girls supervised by orders of nuns, chiefly the Sisters of Mercy, suffered much less sexual abuse but instead endured frequent assaults and humiliation designed to make them feel worthless. "In some schools a high level of ritualised beating was routine ... Girls were struck with implements designed to maximise pain and were struck on all parts of the body," the report said. "Personal and family denigration was widespread." The report concluded that when confronted with evidence of sex abuse, religious authorities responded by transferring offenders to another location, where in many instances they were free to abuse again. "There was evidence that such men took up teaching positions sometimes within days of receiving dispensations because of serious allegations or admissions of sexual abuse," the report said. "The safety of children in general was not a consideration." The Catholic church had been steeling itself for the report, which was repeatedly delayed by church lawsuits, missing documentation and alleged government obstruction. The Christian Brothers delayed the investigation for more than a year with a lawsuit that successfully defended their members' right to anonymity in all references in the report, even in cases in which individual Christian Brothers had been convicted of sexual and physical attacks on children. The church had already been under fire over the sexual misbehaviour of several priests in various Irish parishes. The commission's experts have sought to produce a comprehensive portrait of sexual, physical and emotional damage inflicted on the child victims. The thousands of survivors said they had no safe way to tell their stories until the investigation began because much of Irish Catholic society regarded them as liars. Isoca today said it was now up to the Vatican to investigate its religious orders in the republic. John Kelly, the Isoca co-ordinator in Dublin, said: "Now that the Ryan [Laffoy] commission is finished, we call upon ... Pope Benedict XVI to convene a special consistory court to fully investigate the activities of the Catholic religious orders in Ireland. "Amongst other things, such a court could establish the whereabouts of Irish state assets that were misappropriated over many years by the religious orders and make restitution to the Irish state exchequer." During the commission's investigations, oral evidence was collected from more than 1,000 people, mainly aged from their 50s to 70s. Several hundred travelled back to Ireland from the US and Australia to describe their childhood of terror and intimidation. One victim, John Walsh, of Isoca, called the report a hatchet job that left open wounds gaping. "The little comfort we have is the knowledge that it vindicated the victims who were raped and sexually abused," he said. "I'm very angry, very bitter, and feel cheated and deceived. I would have never opened my wounds if I'd known this was going to be the end result. It has devastated me and will devastate most victims because there is no criminal proceedings and no accountability whatsoever." The commission's original judge, Mary Laffoy, resigned from her post in 2003 over claims that the Irish department of education – which was in charge of inspecting the orphanages and industrial schools – was refusing to hand over documents to her. |
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14 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM (#2886517) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Jim: See 13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM, Below |
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14 Apr 10 - 03:10 PM (#2886619) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll Gotcha! "I'd like to see the evidence that the Roman Catholic Clergy has a numerical superiority in pederasts over any other religious denomination or for that matter the population at large." Here in Ireland - absolutely - Ireland is a Catholic country (the jury is out on how long that will remain the case) and the church has just been found guilty of carrying out and covering up horrific crimes against children under its influence. Of course I can't prove Catholic dominance in the 'pederast stakes' elsewhere, but I would have thought that anywhere where the church held the power that it once had here and in other Catholic countries, it would have had no hesitation in abusing those powers - simply because it could. Do you have evidence that other churches have been able to best the RC record - if so, let's hear them? Jim Carroll |
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14 Apr 10 - 03:45 PM (#2886639) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: akenaton Here is an elephant. It is very like the elephant that all posters to both current threads on sexual abuse of young people have been ignoring. |
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14 Apr 10 - 05:17 PM (#2886709) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Jim, you seem so reasonable and analytical on most topics - but on this one, you come out with a shotgun. I'd like to see a rational discussion of this topic, but all you can do is blast away with your blanket condemnations. Nobody is trying to deny any of the allegations that have been made with some evidence, but it would be refreshing to see some balance and proportion in the discussion. The Murphy and Ryan Reports are indeed a serious and factual condemnation of the abuse in the Irish industrial schools and reformatories. These institutions, which were operated for the Irish government by religious brothers and nuns, did appear to have a culture of abuse. I have no question that this was extreme wrongdoing, and reparations must be made and those who committed crimes must be punished. HOWEVER, this situation took place in a correctional system, and correctional systems have problems that are not necessarily a reflection of the wider community. Were these institutions operated by the entire Catholic Church and were all priests and nuns involved in the operation of these institutions? Certainly not. A very small percentage of the priests and nuns of Ireland worked in these institutions, and the rest were most probably unaware of the situation - it's rare that normal citizens have much awareness of what goes on in their penal institutions. In many countries, priests and nuns serve as agents for penal reform because they visit such institutions as chaplains and witness and report abuses. In the Irish system, priests and nuns and brothers were the staff - so there were no visiting chaplains to discover and report problems. I do not deny that things went horribly wrong in these institutions, and those responsible should be punished and the victims compensated. You look at the problem, find out who was responsible, and deal with the problem. And it does seem to me that in these institutions, abuse was the rule, not the exception to the rule. Most of the abuse consisted of corporal punishment and a draconian system of discipline. This system allowed sexual abuse to exist under the cover of a discipline system that did not allow questioning, but it does not appear from the reports that sexual abuse was anywhere near universal. Look at the facts, and deal with the problem. Local Irish parishes were quite another situation, and we are only beginning to learn the extent of the problem of sexual abuse in parish churches. It does appear that there was an organized effort on the part of several successive Archbishops of Dublin and Primates of Ireland (Armagh), to cover up all information about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church (to protect the Church from "scandal"; and this secrecy allowed child molesters to operate quite freely. The attempt to protect the Church from scandal has involved it in a far greater scandal, one of unimaginable proportion - I think we will find this scandal was worst in Ireland, because the attitudes and discipline of the Catholic Church in Ireland are far more severe than they are in the Catholic Church anywhere else in the world. Still, I have many friends who are Irish-born priests and nuns, and they tell quite a different story about growing up Catholic in Ireland. Most of the Irish-born priests I know are about my age, in their 60s, and they came to the United States from 1960-75. The nuns are older, age 65-85, and came to the U.S. from 1950-70 - all are members of an American branch of the Sisters of Mercy. Since this has been such a hot topic here for so long, I questioned many of them about what it was like to grow up Catholic in Ireland. They all had experiences similar to mine - mostly positive, some negative, no contact with molesters (although some had heard rumors of sexual abuse incidents). Somebody told me that Irish priests and nuns came from the middle class, and that the abuse targeted only the lower class in Ireland - but the Irish-born priests and nuns I know, did not generally come from the upper classes. Mind you, the nuns are currently not disposed toward having a good opinion of the Catholic Church these days, because the Vatican is currently conducting an investigation of women religious in the US, and the nuns are livid about it. I haven't seen data on the extent of the physical and sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church in Ireland. It appears that the problem was widespread, but certainly not universal. From what I've seen, I would guess that the number of priests in Ireland who are guilty of abuse, will be less than ten percent. That's still a huge number, but certainly not enough to justify Jim Carroll's statement, "the real mystery is why the Catholic Church is allowed anywhere near children given the atrocities committed by the clergy." You're not going to control crime with an hysterical approach. You have to deal with it realistically and rationally. I'm afraid I have to say that several people here have nothing to offer the discussion but hysteria. Too bad. -Joe- Ed T asks this about a qote from me:
Ed: Where is the proof of all that? Ed, the best data I've found is at http://www.bishop-accountability.org/. Their approach is far harsher then mine, and they include priests on their lists that have not been proved to be molesters - but their data will give you an idea of the numbers involved. From all that I've read on this crisis, it appears that five percent is about the number of priest-molesters in the U.S. I suspect it will be higher in Ireland and other "Catholic" countries, and lower where Catholics are a minority. -Joe- |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:09 PM (#2886746) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. If my local school or child minding service were to advertise the fact that only five (or ten) percent of their staff were known child abusers, what should I do? It's not rocket science. |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM (#2886748) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Paul Burke HOWEVER, this situation took place in a correctional system The Industrial Schools were orphanages, and orphans don't need corrected. Joe, stop trying to defend the indefensible. Defend the ordinary Catholics, who didn't know this was going on. Point out that abuse was rife in all child care whether religious (of any sect) or secular until recently- and is CERTAINLY still going on. Defend the majority bof decent folks in the priesthood- but recognise that they were all too often silent about what they knew. But DON'T defend the hierarchy- who had the power to stop it at any time, and demeaned and indeed criminalised not only themselves but YOU- the Catholic rank and file- by failing to use their powers when one word could have stopped unimaginable suffering, and delivered the criminals to justice. They've failed you and the children, and better that a millstone etc. We see a high ranking cardinal squirming to avoid institutional responsibility again today- it's all the fault of the gays. If he isn't busted to the ranks by next Tuesday (don't hold your breath), you'll know where Nazinger's priorities lie, and lie, and lie. |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:41 PM (#2886772) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D I agree with Smokey... 5% is one out of 20... that could mean odds of a problem in almost every diocese. Granting that the 5% can mean more in some places and none at all in many, it will still take a huge effort to both find current problems and guard against future problems....and this is apart from the effort to regain public confidence. Decades of denial won't be undone in months. It is sad, no matter what one's view of religion in general is. |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM (#2886784) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Let's see...we can blame the media, the gays, the Jews (twas done by an elderly retired cardinal I think), not the Beatles, the nuns are getting too uppity. Anyone else? mg |
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14 Apr 10 - 07:53 PM (#2886806) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Jim, you seem so reasonable and analytical on most topics - but on this one, you come out with a shotgun. I'd like to see a rational discussion of this topic, but all you can do is blast away with your blanket condemnations." Joe, Please look at what happened and is still happening here. Over at the very least fifty years members of the church systematically and without check brutalised and raped children in their care. This behaviour, (only when it leaked to the outside world) was dealt with with secrecy by the church, despite the fact that the clergy involved had commited criminal acts. The officers of the church bullied the victims and their families into silence. The priests involved were moved on to continue their abuse. It transpires that many leading churchmen were part of the cover-up, yet, the few who have eventually resigned did so reluctantly and with extremely bad grace. While expressing 'sadness' at no time has the church leadership taken responsibility for the crimes committed under the cover of the church. A couple of weeks ago a group of victims stood up in church to protest the presece of a clergman who was involved in the cover-ups - they were booed and barracked out of the church by the congregation. If this didn't happen, please tell me where I have got it wrong. I find all this utterly and completely outrageous - what is unreasonable about that? What, of what I have just written, did not happen? You did not answer my earlier question; (if I have missed it, please point your answer out) if this had taken place within the education system, what would your reaction be? I grew up in non-catholic England where the power of the church was much less than it is here in Ireland - even so, as the child of an excommunicated Catholic father (for opposing fascism in Spain), I was fully aware from an early age of the fear invoked by the church and the clergy. I saw that fear in my mother and in my Irish relatives when I visited them here and in the UK. I have no wish to see the church disappear - I have associated with older Irish Catholics enough to know the important part it played in their lives. But I never again want to see it attain the hold over peoples minds and lives that it once had. In the light of past events is that unreasonable? Jim Carroll |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:17 PM (#2886825) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Where do I get my five percent number? www.bishop.accountability.org (click) has a data page that gives pretty good information. The overall number they give is 5.1 percent of US priests were accused of child molestation, but some dioceses had ten percent. Jim, I know that politicians commit political suicide in the United States if they oppose the spending of money to punish criminals. It's a favorite tactic of failed politicians, to hit hard on crime because nobody can dare oppose them. But the fact of the matter is that crime is not the only issue that confronts us, and crime is irrelevant to most of us, most of the time. The crime that took place in the Catholic Church is a horrible thing - but it does not justify your irrational blanket condemnations. -Joe Offer- |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:56 PM (#2886845) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. If one in twenty priests are abusers, how can the other nineteen reasonably expect to be trusted? That isn't condemnation, it's common sense. The abusers have committed a crime, at least a moral one, against their church and fellow clergy as well as their victims so far as I can see. The rotten apples were left in the barrel too long. |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:57 PM (#2886847) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Of course I can't prove Catholic dominance in the 'pederast stakes' elsewhere... Well, then, Jim,me boy - you can't and haven't answered my questions. So give it up. Next contestant??? |
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15 Apr 10 - 03:09 AM (#2886993) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Smokey, if you could look at the criminal records of the people around you, you will find that one in twenty has committed some sort of crime that you would consider horrible. So, do you go through life not trusting the people around you, since one in twenty is a criminal? Yes, it is certainly a reason to be watchful - but certainly not a valid reason for abandoning human trust. Jim Carroll asks: You did not answer my earlier question; (if I have missed it, please point your answer out) if this had taken place within the education system, what would your reaction be? Well, gee, Jim, I don't know how it is around you, but I DO know that abuse and molestation takes place all the time in the U.S. educational system. In the past year in my area, there have been several cases of child molestation reported in public schools, and not one in Catholic institutions. Does this mean that Catholic church here is squeaky-clean? Certainly not - but I do think the Catholic Church in the U.S. has done a lot to clean up its mess and make it difficult for child molesters to continue committing their crimes in the Church. I think maybe your main fallacy is that you see the Catholic Church as monolithic, with a uniform and rigid discipline. If such were the case, then any incident of child abuse or molestation would indeed be a sure sign of failure of the entire church. But the Church isn't monolithic, and its discipline is far from rigid. The Catholic Church encompasses a far broader spectrum of thought and discipline than almost any institution I can think of. Think of it: Mary Garvey and I are both Catholics in good standing - but we rarely agree on anything, especially on religious issues (although I like and respect her, and I hope she has the same attitude about me). I think I could argue that crime is an unfortunate side effect of freedom. I do oppose crime, especially crimes against children; but I also think there needs to be some moderation in our efforts to control crime, so that we do not destroy our own freedom in the process. And believe me, I couldn't be a Catholic if I didn't think I had the freedom to think and act as I see fit. Many people see religious creeds merely as authority systems. I'm sorry to disappoint them, but "authority" and "obedience" are not in my religious vocabulary. The Catholic tradition is an extremely important part of the essence of my life - but I see no obligation to obey ANY religious authority other than my own conscience. -Joe- |
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15 Apr 10 - 03:33 AM (#2887005) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Next contestant??? " Oh please! Don't scamper away with your tail between your legs. You asked for proof that the Catholic Church has more pederasts than any other religious denomination - I say it has in Ireland and give you the evidence of the Ryan and Murphy reports and ask you to name one other oganisation that can be shown to have more. I add that it probably has where the church has any influence. Where have I not answered your question and where have you answered mine? Fact - the Catholic Church in Ireland, and, as it is now emerging, in other countries where it has influence, harboured one of the most successful and well-organised paedophile rings ever. Not only were clergymen allowed to rape ands sexually and physically assault children for decades, but, if their 'little weaknesses' (the sexual ones - the beatings were taken as suitable forms of 'correction') came to public attention, they were protected by the silence of their fellow-clergymen and superiors and passed through the system to other locations, where they continued 'the good work'. Their victims and families were sworn to secrecy by a church that was well used to using spiritual blackmail and political influence. When these facts were placed before the present head of the church, his response was that the interests of the church and the welfare of the abusive priests had to be taken into consideration - and he did nothing. His response from the beginning of the exposures has been to keep it an 'in-house' matter rather than report these crimes to the authorities. If you can show me that none of this happened, or can name one other organisation, secular or sacred, who ran, or was in a position to run such an organisation and behave like this, you have your victory and are welcome to it. Jim Carroll |
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15 Apr 10 - 05:59 AM (#2887053) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Well, gee, Jim, I don't know how it is around you" Child molestation take place everywhere, but not habitually in one institution and not on the scale it has in the church. I ask again - I will clarify in order that you don't try and dodge the question again If widespread sexual abuse had taken place in schools throuhghout the education system and if the collegues of the abusers had ignored what was happening, the school authorities had hidden and not reported them to the appropriate authorities and had pressurised the pupils and parents into signing a pledge of silence, and then moved the offending teachers on to other posts where they were free to continue that abuse - what do you feel should happen to ALL the guilty parties, abusers and accomplices? A straight answer would be appreciated please. The monolithic side of the question is explicity in the fact that the abuse wasd endemic and fully accepted throughout the church - from pries to pope (not forgetting the abused altar-boys). Jim Carroll |
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15 Apr 10 - 09:59 AM (#2887203) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Jim, the Roman Catholic Church establishment is a bit larger than just Ireland, last time I looked. If you can't read and understand my questions, then there's no point in any further attempts at engagement with you. |
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15 Apr 10 - 11:06 AM (#2887245) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "If you can't read and understand my questions, then there's no point in any further attempts at engagement with you." I understand your question perfectly and have answered it on the evidence gathered so far. Based on the evidence available, there is no organisation anywhere with a record of child abuse to match that of the Catholic Church. To date, where the Catholic Church has been investigated in the matter of child abuse, it has been found guilty to a horrific extent. I have little doubt that if those investigations are extended, as seems likely that similar abuses will be uncovered elsewhere - it appears to go with the territory. Similar accusations have been made in Cyprus, Germany, Switzerland and Canada, though no full-scale investigations have yet taken place in these countries. Now perhaps you would like to provide us with other denominations, or secular bodies for that matter, where child abuse is as endemic as it has been discovered to be in the Catholic Church. Jim Carroll |
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15 Apr 10 - 11:29 AM (#2887264) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Based on the evidence available, there is no organisation anywhere with a record of child abuse to match that of the Catholic Church. Evidence to support this assertion, please. Especially RE: the other organisations. Also, please cite the evidence that shows what the incidence of child abuse is for the world at large. |
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15 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM (#2887266) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ebbie It just occurred to me that it is possible that the Catholic church, as an institution, may be stuck a few generations back where fathers used to be. Let's see if I can say that better: Not long ago at all, historically speaking, the head male of a household was the one who made the rules and saw to it that they were carried out. Not only was his own wife subject to his whims and opinions but the children were considered by him - and by law - to be his. It is only very recently, historically speaking, that the teen years have been recognized as a discrete stage of life with separate and distinct needs. Children historically have been considered powerless and their only function, really, was to serve. I'm not sure where I'm going with this but my point is that the Church, as head of the Family, may have got into the mindset of seeing the people as powerless and expendable. 'Expendable' is not the word I want- can anyone help me out with this? :) |
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15 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM (#2887302) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Also, please cite the evidence that shows what the incidence of child abuse is for the world at large." Now you appear to be on the run - we both know there isn't such evidence and we have to base our knowlege on what has been gathered at the present time. I've shown you mine, based on recently and officially gathered evidence on one institution - The Catholic Church - now you show me yours. We have direct evidence that long term abuse over a long period took place at least over - that is our knowledge to date, unless you are able to top it The Catholic Church is hands down winner in the child abuse stakes - something to be proud of no doubt! The rest is bullshit wiggle. Jim Carroll |
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15 Apr 10 - 01:49 PM (#2887334) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T A RC follower recently told me that because of recent RC reforms that "a child is less likely to be abused by a Catholic priest then abused by the members of almost any other profession. Comment: Maybe so, but,is it not a little too late? As to the "ofen" RC quoted" 5 percent RC priest child sex abuse figure,(I have also seen this # suspiciously quoted as finely as 5.1%) compared to a higher percentage liklihood of a child being sexually abused in the general population. Is this the best aspiration that the RC church can offer that "if you were one of us,(and possibly abused), you were less worse off than the general folks abused in society?" Kind of like saying "I beat my wife less often than my skuzzy beer slugging neighbour." (BTW, considering the #s of priests in the world...then add on the ones who got away with it without being reported or found out...and considering sexual abuse reporting is low, and possibly even lower in the RC church (with the stigma).., that's a lot of kinky priests) |
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15 Apr 10 - 01:55 PM (#2887339) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T We all know how one can play the statistics game to lesson offensive actions in a defense argument. But, on the statistic, the estimates of prevalence of child abuse includes abuse by immediate and extended family members, which account for the overwhelming majority of child sex abuse cases. If you were to remove family members from the equation and only look at children who were sexually abused by non-family trusted professionals...many who have broad contact with children... one may find that the prevalence of abuse by catholic priests may in fact be disproportionate to the amount of contact they have with children. |
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15 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM (#2887342) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. ...we both know there isn't such evidence ... Q.E.D. Thanks for the admission, Jim. Now you can shut the fu$k up. |
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15 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM (#2887343) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T Anyone know much about this fellow? a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7054181.ece">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7054181.ece |
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15 Apr 10 - 02:49 PM (#2887374) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Jim Carroll says:
As for Ed T playing statistics games - Ed, take a look at the data sheet I linked to at bishop-accountability.org. Note the information supporting the 5.1% figure: The U.S. bishops have reported receiving allegations of abuse by 5,600 priests in 1950-2008, or 5.1% of the 109,694 U.S. priests active since 1950. Many incidents of child molestation go unreported, although I think the recent publicity had changed that tendency. Still, it does appear that a good proportion of the incidents are reported by the victims many years after the incident, after the victim has become an adult; and many, many incidents are NEVER. Therefore, it is well-nigh impossible impossible to collect completely accurate statistics of incidents. Still, the 5.1% number reflects the number of molesters who have been accused of even one incident - not those who have been convicted, and not limited to accusations that have been proved to be credible. I'm sure a few priests slipped through the cracks undetected. Note the chart in #3 (Year abuse began) on the data page - the highest incidence of molestations appears to be in the period 1968-1983, and the number drops dramatically after 1990. I think the post-1990 number will rise significantly as victims get old enough to want to report these crimes, but my guess is that the number will not be anywhere near the 1968-1983 rate. I'm guessing that overall, the number of U.S. priests who molested was somewhere between five and ten percent. And let me make it clear that I think that is outrageous and disgraceful, a deep mark of shame on the Catholic Church. Don't try to put words in my mouth and and attempt to make it appear that I think otherwise. I am outraged at this scandal, and I am outraged at the bishops who did nothing to stop it - and I am outraged at the pope and the bishops for a hell of a lot of other things....birth control, anti-homosexuality, repression of nuns, refusal to ordain women, misuse of funds, mollycoddling hateful ultra-conservatives, and on and on and on. A good third of the people, priests, and bishops in the Catholic Church are a real pain in the ass to me. They worship authoritarianism and pietism and small-mindedness and fear and prejudice and misogyny and anti-intellectualism and ultra-capitalism and a sheaf of other things that I think are absolutely contrary to the gentle, generous teachings of Jesus Christ. But I've found a home with the other two-thirds. -Joe- |
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15 Apr 10 - 03:14 PM (#2887390) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Q.E.D...." As things stand at present the Catholic Church is the proven leader in the rape and physical abuse of children, just as, as things stand at present, Mount Everest is the highest on the planet. It may be that in some uspecified time in the future and in some far distant land, a higher mountain might be discovered, but until that time Everest goes on record as the highest, just as the Catholic Church goes on record as the Mount Everest of institutional abuse. What is this all about? You started off by hinting that the reported abuse in Ireland may not have happened - you dropped that one quickly enough. Now, it appears, you are hinting that the abuse that went on is less reprehensible because somewhere, sometime it MIGHT turn out that there will be cases of greater institutional abuse discovered. Your attempts to divert the attention away from the abuses that have been committed and/or tolerated by (obviously) your church is a form of abuse in itself. The Catholic Church not only sheltered, ignored and/or assisted child rapists, but, while doing so, they condemned and attempted to control the sexual behaviour of the laity, threatening them with eternal damnation and torture if they indulged in sex out of marriage, same-sex laisons, or even if they practiced sex for anything other than reproduction. All this makes them hypocrites as well as serial abusers. So "shut the fu$k up" up yourself now that your arguments have been reduced to vaccuuous invective. Jim Carroll |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:03 PM (#2887411) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. Smokey, if you could look at the criminal records of the people around you, you will find that one in twenty has committed some sort of crime that you would consider horrible. So, do you go through life not trusting the people around you, since one in twenty is a criminal? Yes, it is certainly a reason to be watchful - but certainly not a valid reason for abandoning human trust. Joe, I was talking specifically about priests committing certain crimes in certain situations. To try and equate that with all people, all crimes, and in all situations is plain nonsense. I was certainly not advocating the abandoning of human trust. I merely asked how the innocent priests could now be expected to be trusted with children. Do you honestly think people should trust priests with their children knowing (or thinking) there is a 1 in 20 chance they will be abused? I, for one, care about mine infinitely more than that, and there is no way I would take that chance. |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:22 PM (#2887430) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Donuel Truth will set you free. Thats why the confessional is a sound concept. So far, Pope Benedict has made it perfectly clear that lying is preferable to telling the truth, and that protecting your business is paramount to all other concerns, including the health and safety of children. This is contrary to truth setting you free. How will this be reconciled by Ratzinger the man and Benedict the Pope? |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM (#2887450) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief If you find some little independent Baptist church whose pastor is a child abuser then you have an institution where 100% of the clergy is involved in child abuse. That's way worse than the Catholic Church. The difference is in the size of the institution. The RCC gets the most press because it's very very big. That doesn't prove it's the worst, except for some bizarre definition of "worst" where sheer numbers, rather than percents, are all that matters. If .001% of people eating at McDonald's report getting sick, but 66% of people eating at Mack's Chicken Shack, where would you rather go eat? |
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15 Apr 10 - 05:03 PM (#2887464) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. the Catholic Church is the proven leader in the rape and physical abuse of children No, Jimmie-boy, as you yourself have admitted, this is NOT proven. When (and if) you can do so, get back in touch. |
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15 Apr 10 - 06:55 PM (#2887532) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Jim Carroll says: You started off by hinting that the reported abuse in Ireland may not have happened - you dropped that one quickly enough. What????You have to be absolutely out of your mind, Jim. I did no such thing. That is absolutely, totally, incontrovertibly irrational. Respectfully submitted, -Joe- |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:05 PM (#2887535) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer OK, Smokey- Let's talk your percentages. Yes, if five percent of priests were molesters, that would be a big risk for children. In most cases in recent years, the molester-priests have been removed from ministry as soon as there is an accusation; and they are not returned to ministry if the accusation is found to be credible. They are not allowed to serve a complete career. That means that the number of active priests who are child molesters, is far smaller. That number is skewed by the fact that priests leave the priesthood for a number of other reasons, but the current practice is to remove child molester priests from active ministry immediately upon receipt of an accusation. Same goes for any crime. When people are convicted of crimes, they are put in jail and removed from society, thereby eliminating the risk until they are returned to society (with the often-unfounded hope that they have learned their lesson and will not commit the crime again). -Joe- |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:07 PM (#2887538) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Here is a cardinal telling the bishops not to report priests to police. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE63E2H420100415 |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:27 PM (#2887554) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. They aren't my percentages Joe, you said 5% - I was using your figures, although you've clarified them further since then. I think it might well be more than that, but what would be your guess at the percentage if 5% is incorrect? And what percentage of those known priest/abusers have been actually locked up before they could offend further? Removing them from ministry doesn't necessarily stop them from being abusers. Also, we can only count the ones who have been discovered, there are bound to be more. |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:46 PM (#2887569) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Smokey, I think the lesson is that child molesters are drawn to situations where they can have time alone with children. They found a haven in the Boy Scouts until the Scouts instituted a "two-deep" leadership policy. It's not that the Boy Scouts were bad - it's that molesters found a place to operate there. And it took a long time and a lot of incidents and some attempt at denial before the Boy Scouts found a workable solution. It's not that the Catholic Church wants child molestation to happen - that would make no sense whatsoever. It's true that the Catholic Church did not have adequate safeguards in place. Much of that has changed, but the possibility of child molestation still exists wherever there are children in the company of adults. There are no sure-fire ways to prevent crime. All we can do is take reasonable precautions. -Joe- |
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15 Apr 10 - 08:48 PM (#2887600) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Smokey. I fear we may differ somewhat on what constitutes 'reasonable precautions', but I more or less agree with you. |
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16 Apr 10 - 03:01 AM (#2887730) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "The situation you cite in Ireland - (if factual) Joe, "You have to be absolutely out of your mind, Jim." My remarks were aimed at our defensive abuse-apologist Greg F, not you. I know your position on the church and, while I don't agree with it, I accept it comes with some experience. Our friend here, on the other hand, seems to be trying to get the church off the hook by looking for other, worse, abusers (and not finding them, apparently). Jim Carroll |
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16 Apr 10 - 03:36 AM (#2887745) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie I take it the moderator who removed my posts (after I had a couple agreeing with my sentiments) is a catholic then? No matter, denial is what allowed buggering of children to carry on for such a long time in the first place.... |
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16 Apr 10 - 05:33 AM (#2887793) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Hi, Willie- I'm the senior moderator, and I can see deleted posts; and no posts have been deleted from this thread at all. Sometimes, posted messages don't "take," usually because of a disagreement between your browser and Mudcat's software. I often suggest that when you type a long message, take a moment to highlight [CTRL-A] and copy [CTRL-C] the message, and then check to make sure the message posted. If it didn't, paste [CTRL-V] the text into a message box and try again. If it still doesn't post, paste it into a word-processing document and save it until the Mudcat software is in a better mood. We delete messages only for certain reasons: direct personal attack on another Mudcatter, Spam, outright racism, and anonymous posts and posts with deceptive poster names. You always post under the same name and you don't attack people, so you have little to worry about (other than computer glitches). -Joe- (I'm Catholic, but nobody removed your posts) |
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16 Apr 10 - 05:48 AM (#2887799) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll An acknowledgement that I wasn't referring to you would be appreciated Joe, Jim Carroll |
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16 Apr 10 - 06:05 AM (#2887808) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Ooops. Sorry, Jim. I didn't see your message. I'm glad it wasn't me you were accusing of denying abuse. I would have told you about it 35 years ago, which is when I first became aware of it. Sorry I yelled at you. I thought I was being accused of dishonesty, and I've always taken great pride in being scrupulously honest. -Joe- |
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16 Apr 10 - 08:41 AM (#2887884) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Jimmie, you're at it again - facts not in evidence. I'n no apologist for child abuse, nor have I said anywhere that it is not a horrific crime. However, there are more than a little hysteria & hyperbole unsubstantiated claims re: the degree to which the Roman Catholic priesthood is concerned, vis a vis the rest of the world's population. It would be nice to put this problem in perspective & base things on factual evidence before one starts running one's mouth. |
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16 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM (#2887903) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T As to "playing the statistics games"...sometimes it is how the the stats are collected....sometimes it is how the information is grouped together, and other information and confounding elements excluded....sometimes it is how the statistics are used to prove a point (like comparing one thing to a somewhat or totally different thing)...and sometimes the games involve the conclusions made...many times without actual logical analysis. That's what "the statistics game" often represents. To me, comparing reports of sexual abuse in an institution to reports of sexual abuse in the general population is self serving is not a reasonable comparison and to me is misleading..and I suggest possibly even intentionally misleading. Comparing sexual abuse in other institutions may be more logical, if confounding factors are noted. In the RC case, the 5 percent figure....which may be the best that one has....but is unlikely accurate is illogically compared with general sexual abuse figures. The reason is a very huge percentage of sexual abuse reports are in a home relationship or associated with dating type activities. When this is taken out of the figures, and it is limited to other similar institutions, I suspect the comparison would be much less positive...likely why few, who wish to make a point, take this route. |
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16 Apr 10 - 11:33 AM (#2887998) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Jimmie, you're at it again - facts not in evidence." Don't you just know when they're against the ropes when they start calling you 'Jimmie' (I spell mine with a 'y' BTW) And yes - you are being an apologist for child abuse by watering it down with irrelvant sidetracks. The facts of the involvement of the priests and their superiors need "hysteria & hyperbole" like Frankenstein needs another bolt though his neck - their behavior speaks for itself - so why look for worse abuses to compare it to? Jim Carroll |
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16 Apr 10 - 12:20 PM (#2888027) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D The pope has made 'remarks' about abuse, but "The main U.S. victims group immediately dismissed his comments," |
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16 Apr 10 - 12:25 PM (#2888033) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Ed T An article from not too long ago: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/28/sex-abuse-religion-vatican "The Vatican has lashed out at criticism over its handling of its paedophilia crisis by saying the Catholic church was "busy cleaning its own house" and that the problems with clerical sex abuse in other churches were as big, if not bigger." (note the reference to between 1.5% and 5%) |
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16 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM (#2888041) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Why does the pope all of a sudden become pope of all Christians? Has he in the past referred to Catholics or Christians when doing his papal duties? Catholics tend to refer to themselves as Catholics, at least in my neck of the woods. I think his latest pronouncement about how Christians must repent must be compared to his previous words..does he routinely say Christians instead of Catholics? Many denominations of Christians or non-demoninationals do not accept his papal authority. if he has consistently referred to Christians rather than Catholics, OK. If all of a sudden he is trying to be weasily, then not OK. mg |
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16 Apr 10 - 01:36 PM (#2888065) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D Main Entry: Cath·o·lic Pronunciation: \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\ Function: noun Date: 15th century 1 : a person who belongs to the universal Christian church ----------------------------------------------------------- Always in the background is the idea that all Christians SHOULD be 'catholic'... the Catholic church considers there to be an unbroken line of succession from Jesus thru St. Peter down to the present....(never mind the strange conglomeration of alternate Popes in the Middle AGES) |
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16 Apr 10 - 02:11 PM (#2888076) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) "the Catholic church considers there to be" Mmm, history is always writ by those who conquered? |
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16 Apr 10 - 02:30 PM (#2888084) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D "..history is always writ by those who conquered?" Kinda... And it is merely a historical accident that Jesus won over Ahura Mazda (Mithraism)in Rome. What there was of the Bible was read/transmitted in 'dockyards' Greek, and Mithra was ahead until Constantine was converted and decreed that Jesus was his choice. (If I remember correctly, there were 3 popes at one time back when power was being juggled.) |
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16 Apr 10 - 05:38 PM (#2888207) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. Sorry- let me re-state: Jimmy, you're at it again - facts not in evidence |
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16 Apr 10 - 06:58 PM (#2888243) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Peace Mithra was ahead until Constantine was converted and decreed that Jesus was his choice.` ` Constantine didn`t become a Christian until he was on his death bed. Coins of that time show the Sun god AND the Cross. That boy covered both bases. FYI. |
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16 Apr 10 - 07:35 PM (#2888254) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bill D "Scholars debate whether Constantine adopted his mother St. Helena's Christianity in his youth, or whether he adopted it gradually over the course of his life.[197] Constantine would retain the title of pontifex maximus until his death, a title emperors bore as heads of the pagan priesthood, as would his Christian successors on to Gratian (r. 375–83). According to Christian writers, Constantine was over 40 when he finally declared himself a Christian, writing to Christians to make clear that he believed he owed his successes to the protection of the Christian High God alone." |
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16 Apr 10 - 08:43 PM (#2888280) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer I think Benedict/Ratzinger is an interesting phenomenon. He is a true intellectual. He may not agree with you, but he's open to discussion. I do not think he sees himself as infallible - but when he was John Paul II's Rottweiler, he seemed to consider John Paul II to be infallible. He tried to get John Paul's refusal to ordain women to be an infallible statement, but he missed one crucial element of infallibility. There was no universal acceptance of the refusal to ordain women, so the claim to infallibility of this statement lacks credibility. A pope can't just use authority to declare a statement infallible - the statement has to be credible, and universally accepted. To a great extent, the Vatican seems to have backed off its attempt to define JPII's statement as infallible, but ordination of women is NOT a subject Benedict is willing to discuss. -Joe- |
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17 Apr 10 - 01:24 AM (#2888398) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief The Pope's infallibility wasn't universally accepted in 1871. That's why we have Old Catholics. |
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17 Apr 10 - 04:22 AM (#2888427) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "Sorry- let me re-state: Jimmy, you're at it again - facts not in evidence" The longer this goes on, the more transparently stupid your arguments become. The Catholic Church are the leaders in the field of child abuse because they are the only runners in this particularly sordid race - there are no other contenders for the title. If there were I have little doubt that you and your fellow-apologists would be jumping up and down and pointing them out; as it is, your silence says it all. Name one organisation that has harboured paedophiles who have systematically abused children for decades, probably generations, have ignored the abuses until they have got out of hand, then have created an escape rout to allow abusers not only to evade justice, but to continue their abuses elsewhere, defying national law in order to do so. Name one organisation which has been part of the defiling of children in this way and is powerful enough to have broken national law in this way. JUST ONE ORGANISATION THAT COMES ANYWHERE NEAR THIS and you might have a case - otherwise case proven beyond any reasonable doubt - any unbiased jury would convict and throw the key away! Joe: "He may not agree with you, but he's open to discussion." I suspect that this may be due entirely to the changing fortunes of the church rather than to the character of the Pope. If any good has come out of this whole affair, it is the fact that it is making the church answerable for its behaviour, albeit gradually and extremely reluctantly. Certainly within my lifetime, if Catholics were to question the word of the Pope, the bishops, or even their p.p., they would be looking up for the lightning bolt. Now we have prosecutions and imprisonment of abusive clergymen, resignations of bishops, the demand for more, and even demands that H.H. should answer the charges against him (even the suggestion that he will be the first pope to be forced to resign) - the times they are a'changin' indeed! I never thought I'd live to see it. Jim Carroll |
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17 Apr 10 - 09:34 AM (#2888519) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Greg F. One word, Jimmy: Bullshit. |
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17 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM (#2888563) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll "One word, Jimmy: Bullshit. " Two words - prove it. Jim Carroll |
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17 Apr 10 - 11:45 AM (#2888573) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: John P Greg, what are you talking about? It is well and widely documented that high church officials facilitated the rape of children. Many, many instances of priests being moved to other parishes where the parents of small children didn't know they were getting a pedophile foisted off on them. And all to avoid embarrassing the church. Yuck! The police are just a phone call away. Why hasn't it been church policy that law-breakers in the ranks are turned over to the law immediately? Some of these priests have been brought to justice, but not many, and almost none of the bishops and cardinals who colluded with them. I'd like to know why all affected governments haven't raided the church offices and hired a small army of lawyers to go through all the records. I'd like to know why there is even mention of allowing the church to investigate and police itself. If the church were going to do an investigation, it should have been published -- with every detail -- a couple of years ago. Where is it? I'd like to know why the church is attacking journalists who, in the absence of any credible official action, are trying to ferret out the truth for themselves. Why isn't the church working with those journalists to make the truth universally known so everyone can figure out how to deal with the mess? |
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17 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM (#2888577) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonzo3legs You should watch the excellent Song for a Raggy Boy, which shows bigoted raving catholics at their worst. |
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17 Apr 10 - 01:27 PM (#2888652) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: michaelr Bill Maher says the Catholic Church should be prosecuted under the RICO act. |
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17 Apr 10 - 09:15 PM (#2888885) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Joe Offer Jim Carroll says: Name one organisation that has harboured paedophiles who have systematically abused children for decades, probably generations The Boy Scouts of America It took time and some attempted coverups, but the Boy Scouts generally cleaned up their act by about 1990. Of course, they have never been the target of prejudice that the Catholic Church has been. Jim, it's a very difficult and bewildering problem. There's no question that the Catholic Church screwed up this thing, and screwed it up badly. But much of it was unintentional and misguided. The American Catholics threw a lot of money at the problem in the 1970s by building centers that were expected to treat and cure the problem of child molestation - but they didn't work. I still don't believe we have a workable solution to the problem, but at least the Catholic Church is trying. -Joe- |
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18 Apr 10 - 03:25 AM (#2889017) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonnie Shaljean > There's no question that the Catholic Church screwed up this thing, and screwed it up badly. But much of it was unintentional and misguided. Unintentional?? HOW can sexual abuse and cover-ups be unintentional? |
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18 Apr 10 - 03:29 AM (#2889018) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Bonnie Shaljean OR "misguided"? That word implies an innocence-of-motive aspect that I don't believe for one minute. |
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18 Apr 10 - 04:35 AM (#2889033) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Jim Carroll Joe Are you saying, as an organisation, the Boy Scouts of America allowed paedophiles to operate in their ranks until their behaviour got so out of hand that something had to be done and they were moved on to other Scout troups in order that they escape justice, allowing them to continue with their paediphelic practices? Was none of this reported to the law, and were the victims and their families bullied into vows of silence? Did this behaviour include the whole organisation, from the Chief Scout to the individual scoutmaster? This is what happened in the organisation of the church, and that is what makes the stance they took so unacceptable. Apologists have tried to pass this off as a handful of 'bad apples' - it wasn't; it was an in-built culture of abuse and acceptance of abuse, excused and fostered by the church, which almost certainly lasted for generations and spread throughout the church. Until people realise this, the victims will never have closure and the church will have committed 'the perfect crime'. Throwing money at the problem went on here too - sort of, but it wasn't an attempt to stop the abuses happening, rather, it was part of the cover-up. Some - very few, were placed in therapy in order to give the impression that something was being done. One of the worst abusers here (over a hundred victims), despite the advice of his therapist that he was an uncurable paedaphile, was put back in office, where he continued to abuse, was finally moved to a post abroad and was discovered to have made his home overlooking a childrens' playground. Is this the type of money-throwing that the church indulged in, in the US? It really isn't a difficult problem - the church should be separated from childrens' education and welfare, they should have no more say in temporal affairs than we ordinary citizens have, and their role be restricted to the spiritual ministering, and only then at the full consent of the individuals who wish it. They must be become a spiritual organisation and nothing else. Jim Carroll |
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18 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM (#2889163) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Another relic of the Roman Empire crumbles. Another triumph of literacy, the printing-press and public opinion. Perhaps these should both be rhetorical questions? |
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18 Apr 10 - 02:08 PM (#2889226) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief A goodly chunk of public opinion in this country thinks Obama was born in Kenya and his Hawaiian birth certificate is a clear forgery, in spite of there being absolutely not a shred of a ghost of a scrap of evidence to support this assertion. I wouldn't be so proud of public opinion. |
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18 Apr 10 - 02:50 PM (#2889250) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh True for you. That's part of why I wondered (visibly, at least) whether I should frame the statements as questions. Need "public opinion", however, imply the opinion(s) of a majority in a given population, as distinct from an appreciable number? Then there's the issue of access to the modern-day media. |
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18 Apr 10 - 02:53 PM (#2889251) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh By the way, I didn't mean to imply that "a goodly chunk" means a majority! Just an appreciable number, I suppose. |
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18 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM (#2889275) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: mousethief Actually, leaving aside the accuracy of your second statement/question, I'm not sure anything has crumbled just yet. |
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18 Apr 10 - 04:17 PM (#2889298) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Well, it's coming apart at the edges; in the process of crumbling. Apparently in Ireland, when some Pastoral Letter was read from the altar recently, many among the congregations left. |
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18 Apr 10 - 09:33 PM (#2889469) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: Amos "In my travels around the world, I encounter two Catholic Churches. One is the rigid all-male Vatican hierarchy that seems out of touch when it bans condoms even among married couples where one partner is H.I.V.-positive. To me at least, this church - obsessed with dogma and rules and distracted from social justice - is a modern echo of the Pharisees whom Jesus criticized. Yet there's another Catholic Church as well, one I admire intensely. This is the grass-roots Catholic Church that does far more good in the world than it ever gets credit for. This is the church that supports extraordinary aid organizations like Catholic Relief Services and Caritas, saving lives every day, and that operates superb schools that provide needy children an escalator out of poverty. This is the church of the nuns and priests in Congo, toiling in obscurity to feed and educate children. This is the church of the Brazilian priest fighting AIDS who told me that if he were pope, he would build a condom factory in the Vatican to save lives. This is the church of the Maryknoll Sisters in Central America and the Cabrini Sisters in Africa. There's a stereotype of nuns as stodgy Victorian traditionalists. I learned otherwise while hanging on for my life in a passenger seat as an American nun with a lead foot drove her jeep over ruts and through a creek in Swaziland to visit AIDS orphans. After a number of encounters like that, I've come to believe that the very coolest people in the world today may be nuns. So when you read about the scandals, remember that the Vatican is not the same as the Catholic Church. Ordinary lepers, prostitutes and slum-dwellers may never see a cardinal, but they daily encounter a truly noble Catholic Church in the form of priests, nuns and lay workers toiling to make a difference. It's high time for the Vatican to take inspiration from that sublime - even divine - side of the Catholic Church, from those church workers whose magnificence lies not in their vestments, but in their selflessness. They're enough to make the Virgin Mary smile." Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times |
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19 Apr 10 - 12:59 PM (#2889907) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg If you can stand more, read up on Marciel and his bribery, corruption, protection by Pope John Paul II, who should no longer be considered for sainthood. Then try to get a take on Cardinal Sardono? Sadono? Something like that. He has made some of the more interesting statements and he keeps appearing in this drama. mg |
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19 Apr 10 - 02:55 PM (#2889994) Subject: RE: BS: Catholic come all-ye From: GUEST,mg Another problem curtesy of Andrew Sullivan (and yes I read him but he also reads me because I write to him). A subordinate was pressured to cover for Ratzinger regarding a meeting he chaired where a priest was reassigned and went on to abuse. I will say this in front of God and everyone. I think that the pope is either incompetent mentally or he is basically lying to us. Or figuring he does not have to actually say the truth as long as he does not speak words of lies. Either way he needs to go. Now. There is so much filth associated with this Marciel case..bribery of church officials, at least it looks that way. Lots and lots of money exchanging hands. A pope who turned the other way..John Paul II. This is not the case of a lonely, tortured priest in a run-down orphanage. I am sympathetic to those poor souls, although I would do all I could to keep them away from children, including jail of course. This is a scam artist of the highest degree. A human worm. No, I should not insult worms. A subhuman inferior to a worm. mg |