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11 Apr 10 - 06:45 AM (#2884110) Subject: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Paul Reade This may seem an odd subject, but in these days of universal marketing the humble bread roll seems to be one product which is still known by a variety of local names: teacake, barm cake, bap etc. At a session in Yorkshire recently, someone did a poem about visiting Lancashire and asking for a sausage sandwich in a café. "What do you want it on?" asked the waitress; "A teacake" he replied, whereupon it was served in a currant bun! Any other local variations on this? |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:04 AM (#2884120) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Gerry In the US I just called them rolls. In Sydney people didn't know what I meant unless I said bread roll. |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:23 AM (#2884131) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: VirginiaTam In US we also called them buns. In The Silver Whistle When my King's son he comes back home No bruising stones will put before him! Loaves of bread, bread will be baking For Charles, with eyes so blue, enticing Loaves of bread would not have meant large multi serve slice-able bread. More like the size the biblical loaves and fishes (shepherd boy's dinner) that Christ multiplied to feed the thousands. Sadly now the words loaf and loaves are quite specifically the whole unit of sliced bread. Found these on wikipedia Batch - Coventry/Nuneaton term , a large soft floured roll from Shropshire. Bulkie roll - A type of roll with a crust that is usually slightly crisp or crunchy and has no toppings. Bun -(e.g., hamburger bun or hot dog bun). Buttery - A flat savoury roll from Aberdeen. Cob - A bread roll of any kind in the West Midlands and East Midlands. The name originates from the resemblance to the shape and size of a cobblestone. In these areas the term "bread roll" often refers exclusively to a longer, hot-dog style roll. Muffin - Some people in the UK refer to a bread roll as a "muffin" (commonly used in Rochdale, Oldham, Bury, Ashton-Under-Lyne), although a muffin is also a separate, distinct form of bread product. See English Muffin. Nudger, a soft white or brown roll similar to a finger roll common in Liverpool. Oven Bottom, a Lancashire term for a flat, floury, soft roll. Stottie cake, a thick, flat, round loaf. Stotties are common in North East England. |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:26 AM (#2884134) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: gnomad Also bread-bun, bun, oven-bottom cake, stottie, breadcake, plain teacake (so distinguished from just a "teacake" which,as your friend discovered, can mean the fruit variety) or cob (which can sometimes mean a round loaf about 9" across) It's a subject in which meanings can change in quite a small distance, fraught with possibilities for looking a twit. |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:29 AM (#2884136) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave MacKenzie The standard bread roll was a bun when I lived in Geordieland - the Stottie cake was quite different. They have barmcakes (or just barms) on Merseyside. |
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11 Apr 10 - 07:32 AM (#2884140) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,MadauntieCat Very regional. Being a southern softie, 'stotties'and 'barm cakes' threw me for a while, as did our 'cobs' and 'drippers' in return. I likes drippers, me. Erm...folk?! Anyone know a song about bread rolls? (grin). |
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11 Apr 10 - 08:07 AM (#2884160) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Manitas_at_home I ask for a sausage torpedo in the cafe in the mornings and they keep telling me it's a baguette. It's quite clearly a torpedo on the menu! In East London the beigel ( i as in pipe) has almost completely been replaced by the bagel. |
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11 Apr 10 - 09:06 AM (#2884183) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rob Naylor ...plain teacake (so distinguished from just a "teacake" which,as your friend discovered, can mean the fruit variety) or cob (which can sometimes mean a round loaf about 9" across) Not in Yorkshore or the West Riding as was, anyway). A "teacake" would automatically be plain bread. If you wanted the fruit variety you'd have to ask for a "currant teacake". And then there was the "long bun"...a longer, thinner version of the currant teacake. |
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11 Apr 10 - 09:11 AM (#2884184) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: open mike there are many styles, types and sizes of mexican bread this one fits in your hand http://www.enasco.com/prod/images/products/B0/AC042509l.jpg here are some descriptions http://www.articleclick.com/Article/What-Are-Some-Types-of-Mexican-Bread/959383 and some pictures of sweet ones http://www.frugallawstudent.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/a822.jpg |
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11 Apr 10 - 09:21 AM (#2884187) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Geoff the Duck There have been previous discussions on the naming of (UK) bread, and when I grew up in Bradford (West Yorks) you could locate people on a map within a few miles if you asked them what they called certain items of bread and things sold in chip shops. Only last Summer in Whitby I identified some total strangers in a pub as residents of Keighley using the Bread and ChipShop system. Take bread, 4 to 6" diameter, flattened, fairly soft but not floury, not identical, but similar enough to be regarded as essentially the same. Keighley was "barm cakes", West Leeds "bread cakes", Bradford "tea cakes" (white, brown or currant). Baps were rolls - soft and floured and from further afield. Cobs were rolls - soft inside, but a crisp crust. Bradford had "flat cakes" which large diameter oven bottom jobs which looked as if they were cooked with a baking tray on both top and bottom. I think the North-East stottie is similar, but would not bet money on it. There area bunch of others, but I am off shopping. Quack! GtD. |
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11 Apr 10 - 02:14 PM (#2884327) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Q (Frank Staplin) Muffins, to most North Americans, is a rather cakey form, often with nuts, fruit, chocolate chips and whatever, baked in a small paper cup. See pictures- http://www.muffinrecipes.net English muffins in North America are usually flattened rounds, tasteless but OK with jam, butter, etc. on top. see pictures- http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/English-Muffins/Detail.aspx A simple teacake, American var. (sometimes called sugar cookies) 1 cup butter 1 3/4 cups white sugar 2 eggs 3 cups all-purpose flour 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg 1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract Often nuts, fruit, etc. added. As I understand it, the original English teacake lacks the sugar. Many in North America are loaded with raisins, etc. |
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11 Apr 10 - 05:52 PM (#2884420) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion A muffin in England is an unsweetened cake, thick but flat, eaten toasted for tea; unhappily the American nomenclature English-muffin is taking over here, as Americans imagine that what are properly called sweet buns (a sort of cupcake, but not iced) should be called muffins. Muffins here [real ones] are a fine old tradition ~~ in Dickens' Oliver Twist, Mr Grimwig visits Mr Brownlow for tea on days when he expects him to be eating muffins. And these are the sort of muffins that "The muffin man who lives in Drury Lane" in the nursery=rhyme would have been selling; along with another sort of unsweetened English teatime flat toasted cake, the crumpet, which is cellular baked and so absorbs the butter when hot, and has a particularly delicious flavour which folklore ascribes to a recipe traditionally kept secret by bakers. {"Crumpet", in English slang, is a word synonymous also with "totty", denoting the female regarded as sexual object; tho what the connection [apart from delicious desirability] to teatime treats I have never quite understood. ~Michael~ |
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11 Apr 10 - 06:16 PM (#2884438) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rob Naylor Geoff the Duck: Take bread, 4 to 6" diameter, flattened, fairly soft but not floury, not identical, but similar enough to be regarded as essentially the same. Keighley was "barm cakes", West Leeds "bread cakes", Bradford "tea cakes" (white, brown or currant). I grew up south of Bradford...on the Wyke side of Scholes: Westfield Lane area. My dad had one of the Fish & Chip shops in Wyke (having worked up from being a window cleaner, a miner and a leatherworker). Definitely tea cakes in our house. And the "fish cakes" we sold in the shop were made of 2 slices of a very large potato with a slice of fish sandwiched between them, dipped in batter and fried like the fish. AKA "patties". "Fish cakes" down here in Kent, if you can get them, seem to consist of fish and potato mashed together, rolled in breadcrumbs and shallow-fried. As I said on the "dialect" thread, back then you could virtually tell which village somebody came from by the dialect words used. |
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12 Apr 10 - 10:57 AM (#2884820) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Anne Lister It's a fascinating subject - and it's also true in France, where the naming of loaves and bread products is also regional to a great extent. I was always particularly happy in Paris, where I worked through most of my university vacations at an international hostel, and would be sent out some mornings to buy a bastard or half a bastard (in the not-so-distant English translation). A side issue is the naming of cakes in the patisseries, where my favourite were known as nun's farts. |
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12 Apr 10 - 11:26 AM (#2884845) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Valmai Goodyear And what became of the term 'French loaf'? Ask for a French loaf in a modern baker's and you will be met by a look of blank incomprehension until you say 'baguette'. It's loaf, Jim, but not as we know it. Valmai (Lewes) |
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12 Apr 10 - 11:58 AM (#2884867) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Les from Hull Of course a teacake's got currants in it. Otherwise it'd be a breadcake. Have you never had a toasted teacake? Bread rolls are circular in cross sections, often called dinner rolls. Baps are smaller than breadcakes, bigger than a bread roll. Don't get me going about pikelets. Anyone who disagrees with any of the above is clearly wrong! |
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12 Apr 10 - 07:25 PM (#2885116) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rob Naylor Bolleaux, Les, a teacake's a teacake. If it's got currants in it it'd be a *currant* teacake. There is no such thing as a breadcake. So :-P |
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12 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM (#2885162) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Joe Offer In Berlin, they were called Schrippen. When I was a seminary student in Milwaukee, we had a steady breakfast diet of something very similar, but we called them just "rolls" - eaten with lots of butter and, occasionally, jelly. We had them at the Catholic summer camp where I worked during college:
They say are mighty fine Till one rolled off the table And blew up Cabin Nine. Oh, I don't want no more of Villa Jerome, Gee, Ma, I wanna go home. Here's a recipe for Berliner Schrippen. -Joe- |
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12 Apr 10 - 08:20 PM (#2885166) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 Mike says: "Americans imagine that what are properly called sweet buns (a sort of cupcake, but not iced) should be called muffins. See now? There ya' go again. I've told y'all before that ya' don't know shit and once again you're wrong! This here Baby is a MUFFIN. Look at that thing and you know its just eatup with blueberries....or maybe its a cranberry-orange muffin. I dunno' what it is YOU think is a muffin but it don't compare to that mother! But I guess it just fits in with the rest of y'all's lack of knowledge about these things. Like the completely fucked up thing about cookies and biscuits and scones and all. Lissen up......You have got to quit calling biscuits "scones." There are milllions of Rednecks in this country and we are all genetically wired to know what a biscuit is when we're born.........and that thing you call a biscuit ain't nothin' but a cookie and that scone thing IS A BISCUIT! Hellfire, a Redneck baby's first meal is sausage gravy and biscuits! And I don't mean them "banger" things y'all think is sausage. I'm talking good ground pork with a shitload of sage and black pepper. Try to learn better.....I think you can. Ain't no sense in keepin' on with that ignorance. Best of Luck in Getting Your Shit Together, Spaw |
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12 Apr 10 - 08:50 PM (#2885202) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan Spaw, your imitations of linguistic imperialist hegemony are legendary and without peer. I tips me lid. But stick it to the Poms and don't bother trying it on us real southerners. Cheers, Rowan |
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12 Apr 10 - 09:15 PM (#2885227) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 LOL.....and even my ass off as well! Spaw |
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12 Apr 10 - 10:05 PM (#2885259) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion See now? There ya' go again. I've told y'all before that ya' don't know shit and once again you're wrong! This here Baby is a MUFFIN. Look at that thing and you know its just eatup with blueberries....or maybe its a cranberry-orange muffin. I dunno' what it is YOU think is a muffin but it don't compare to that mother! ===== Yay, Spaw, You make my point. An uniced cupcake if ever anybody ever saw such a thing: YOU PATHETIC YANK FRUITCAKE YOU!!! |
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13 Apr 10 - 02:43 AM (#2885351) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Anne Lister While I disagree with Spaw about muffins I can't agree with MtheGM about cupcakes ... an American muffin is often packed full of raising agents like baking powder, hence the overgrown appearance, whereas a cupcake has a flat top and interesting icing and is more of a sponge mix. Biscuits are not scones and I personally wouldn't dream of putting gravy or sausages with a scone while cookies are a variety of biscuit. But we all know that, don't we? |
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13 Apr 10 - 03:20 AM (#2885368) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion I think you may well be right about cupcakes at that, Anne ~~ years since I had one, tho used to luv the J Lyons choc or lemon ones in my way·back childhood. But, then, what would you say was our name for what Spaw and such boobies over there will insist on calling muffins? ~ coz muffins is what they sure·a·zell ain't, eh? ~Michael~ |
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13 Apr 10 - 03:22 AM (#2885370) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Pete Saw a mention of jelly back there. I hope you mean jam. Also why has no-one yet complicated matters with crumpets. (not to be confused with crumpet which is something else entirely). |
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13 Apr 10 - 03:32 AM (#2885373) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,CrazyEddie Blaa (pronounced Blah!) A soft, round, white floury bap from Waterford (Ireland). |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:28 AM (#2885395) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion Also why has no-one yet complicated matters with crumpets. (not to be confused with crumpet which is something else entirely). === GUESTpete, you will find I dealt with both crumpets & crumpet on 11 Apr, 5.52 PM. ~~ & even started a spinoff BS thread on definition of 'totty' emerging from what I had to say there. ~Michael~ |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:54 AM (#2885405) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: banjoman When visiting in Missouri a couple of years ago I was interested to know what a "Thrown Roll" was until I was taken to Lamberts restauraunt where they literally throw fresh baked rolls at the customers. If you want one you have to be quick and catch it |
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13 Apr 10 - 05:16 AM (#2885414) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: theleveller "Also why has no-one yet complicated matters with crumpets" Do you mean pikelets? |
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13 Apr 10 - 05:31 AM (#2885419) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Arnie When I worked in a Halifax fish & chip shop in my youth, chip butties were a favourite with the customers. The butty was a soft, round bread roll but we had no dialect name that I was aware of at the time. I also recall frying 'chats' when in season. Bet there's a few mudcatters out there who know what these are. |
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13 Apr 10 - 05:41 AM (#2885422) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Valmai Goodyear I think what Americans call muffins are a variation on the English fairy cake, with different combinations of fruit. The Cupcakes I have met are denser, fruitless, flat on top, cling sullenly to their baking cases and have a thick layer of icing. Valmai |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:01 AM (#2885436) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave MacKenzie I used to have muffins for breakfast in London with a fried egg. As for crumpets, they're what the English call pancakes, not to be confused with pancakes, which the English call drop scones, or French pancakes, which the Bretons call krampouezh (actually I think there's two words depending on whether they're made of buckwheat or ordinary flour)! At least nobody's mentioned Muffin the Mule. |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:11 AM (#2885438) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: theleveller "they're what the English call pancakes, not to be confused with pancakes, which the English call drop scones, or French pancakes" That's a complete load of crepe! |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:19 AM (#2885440) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome At least nobody's mentioned Muffin the Mule. I believe it became a sexual offence in the 1960's. Hey, banjoman - I've been to Lamberts too. Great fun. Cheers DeG |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:51 AM (#2885454) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Abdul - nearly home. Born York, brought up in Dunnington. I agree with Les from where my daughter lives, a teacake has raisins or whatever in it, bits of peel too I recall. I'ts not bread it's a teacake and best toasted. Al |
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13 Apr 10 - 07:04 AM (#2885460) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST Re: the nun's farts comment up there somewhere... A friend of mine who is a patissier catering for the re-enactment market makes Whore's Farts (from a C18th recipe I believe). These are a very sweet semi-aerated meringue, not dissimilar to a cross between meringue and Edinburgh Castle Rock (for all of our trans-pond cousins, ECR is like sweet fruit flavoured chalk). They are small, and of a somewhat amusing shape. She also sells them dipped in chocolate, which go by the non-authentic name of Skiddies. As far as bread is concerned, her orthentic C13th gingerbrede balls (small spheres of breadcrumbs, honey, ginger, chilli and sandalwood powder) are to die for. Hot as Satan's undercrackers, but tastier. |
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13 Apr 10 - 07:35 AM (#2885470) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome Hot as Satan's undercrackers, but tastier. The mind boggles as to the breadth and depth of experience held by mudcatters but that one must take the bisuit. (Pun intended) :D (eG) |
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13 Apr 10 - 07:36 AM (#2885471) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: A Wandering Minstrel From my own childhood I remember "penny bricks" which were like a miniature cottage loaf, and Malt Bread which was a cross between a teacake and a chunk of road tar with lots of fruit in it and best eaten toasted. |
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13 Apr 10 - 10:57 AM (#2885584) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion Further to cupcakes ~ see 03.20 AM above: as I agreed there with Anne, Lyons cupcakes were indeed flat-topped and iced; but between then & now I have had a coffee & 'cupcake' in a Costa Coffee Shop; and their cupcakes are versions of their [US style] 'muffins', (what Valmai reminds me above are 'fairy-cakes' to us ~ which I had queried & for which reminder many thanx); but iced. All still with me? ~Michael~ |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:07 AM (#2885591) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Anne Lister I'm still working my way through the definition of crumpets by Dave MacKenzie, which bore no relation to any crumpet I've ever eaten (and I've had a few in my time). No crumpet I've ever met could be confused with any variety of pancake! No one has mentioned Cornish splits yet, either ... Oh, and the pets de nonne (or nun's farts)in France mentioned above were like a small cottage loaf shape made out of choux pastry, iced and filled with either coffee or chocolate confectioners' custard. Or do I have to define "cottage loaf" here too? |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:12 AM (#2885600) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Charmion A southern French pastry, called "paume de Juif" (Jew's palm), is a heart-shaped confection of puff pastry sprinkled with large sugar crystals. It is made by rolling a large rectangle of pastry from both ends, and cutting the double tube into slices about a centimetre thick. Bake in a fairly hot oven, sprinkle with sugar. I first saw them on the French Riviera in 1972. I have never seen them anywhere else. |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:25 AM (#2885616) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Joe Nicholson the buns in paper cups which are now sold as muffins were called queen buns when I was a lad. Joe Nicholson |
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13 Apr 10 - 11:33 AM (#2885625) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,MadauntieCat D el G (for it was I who posted accidentally anonymously about whore's farts and gingerbrede) Satan's nether-wraps are hot, with a distinct whiff of spent gunpowder and random scorchmarks. Generally made of woven asbestos. Cerise. No lace. Wash at gas mark 9 and stand well back. I have fiends in low places, me. |
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13 Apr 10 - 12:09 PM (#2885652) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Les from Hull Me Mam's fairy cakes had the top middle bit cut out, some butter cream put in and the bit that was cut out cut into two and put back to make the wings. Fairy, wings, see? And me Mam was NEVER wrong! |
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13 Apr 10 - 12:30 PM (#2885664) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion LfH ~ yay, my Auntie Lily's fairy cakes were the same as your Mam's, and she was the best cake-maker in our big family [father one of 5, mother one of 8, Auntie Lily her 2nd oldest sister ~ 23 1st cousins]. So, yes indeed, that was what fairy-cakes were right enuff. ~Michael~ |
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13 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM (#2885676) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Newport Boy @DeG Hot as Satan's undercrackers, but tastier. The mind boggles as to the breadth and depth of experience held by mudcatters but that one must take the bisuit. (Pun intended) I thought it was only the Jesuits ate the bisuits! Phil |
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13 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM (#2885769) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Newport Boy OK - to clear things up. South Wales, 1947-8. Bottom of the pile was the cob - almost spherical, less than 3 inches diameter, with a hard crust. Sold for a farthing. Since there were few farthings in circulation by then, we usually bought 2 for a ha'pennny. Next, the bread roll (as opposed to the jam roll or swiss roll). Similar to the cob, but nearly 4 inches diameter and a slightly softer crust. A ha'penny each. There was also the bap - flatter and slightly larger, with a very soft crust, and floured. I don't know what they cost - only the posh people ate them. The cheapest bread was a french stick - usually about a foot long and about 3 inches diameter, with a hard crust. These were tuppence farthing, and since you didn't usually want 2, you had to pay tuppence ha'penny if neither of you had a farthing. The standard 1-1/4lb white loaf came in 2 varieties - sandwich (square section) or tin (a harder crust on a raised top). The latter was best for toasting on a toasting fork in front of the fire. Both varieties sold for fourpence ha'penny. Small white loaves were also available, and Hovis loaves. There was brown bread, but our local shops didn't stock much of it. Teacakes were usually about 8 inches diameter, and had currants - you can't have a teacake without currants! Sliced, toasted, buttered and spread with home-made jam, they were a Saturday treat. We had pikelets - soft, light brown one side, honeycomb the other, they were sold by all the local bakers. The national chains (like Lyons) sold crumpets, which appeared to be the same, but more expensive. Toast them and butter the honeycomb side - you're not allowed jam on pikelets. Oh - and I don't want any nonsense about Welsh cakes - they're bakestones, plain and simple. Here endeth Phil's bread gospel!! |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:07 PM (#2885778) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rob Naylor Well you're still wrong about teacakes! You got the size about right (though I reckon 6in is closer than 8 in). But if they've got currants in them, they're currant teacakes. The clue's in the name!!! Normal brown or white teacakes are just bread. I believe they originated in Yorkshire and only the currant variety was "exported" out of the county, so all you people who had the misfortune to be born outside [insert deity of choice or atheistic epithet]'s own county dropped the fructoid identifier and are just wrong, wrong, wrong :-P |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:32 PM (#2885812) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST Well I've lived north, south and west of Yorkshire, and teacakes always have had currants in. Going by the tradition, Yorkshire folk are just too tight to pay the extra for the fruit. |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:33 PM (#2885813) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Pete Re Muffin the Mule. The same act of parliament also outlawed Noggin the Nog. Anyone else for mucky euphamisms? (Is that spelling correct? It looks a bit dodgy). |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:42 PM (#2885822) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Newport Boy Try 'euphemism' Phil |
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13 Apr 10 - 04:44 PM (#2885823) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Pete Thanks. That looks better. |
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13 Apr 10 - 06:02 PM (#2885875) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan Many years ago when I was teaching Biology and helping students come to terms with dichotomous keys as mechanisms to determine identities, we developed one (on the basis of presence/absence of egg/sugar/milk/etc, as well as cooking styles, to differentiate between a wide variety of edible (and not so edible) things that all included flour as an ingredient. Mercifully, in the context of this thread, we stuck to what was observed in Victoria (Oz) and didn't have to cope with transatlantic definitions, let alone UK intracounty 'nonsense'. Nun's farts, indeed. Why hadn't I ever come across one? I feel deprived. Cheers, Rowan |
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13 Apr 10 - 10:06 PM (#2886073) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion BIG DRIFT ALERT "The standard 1-1/4lb white loaf came in 2 varieties - sandwich (square section) or tin (a harder crust on a raised top). The latter was best for toasting on a toasting fork in front of the fire. Both varieties sold for fourpence ha'penny." ==== Historical note: this 4½d was the 'controlled price' in the late 40s. Altho the War was well over, there was still rationing, & what the idiot Labour Government of the time called "austerity". They pretended it was necessary to keep us on even keel while getting over effects of the war; but in reality it was all down to that puritanical fool Sir Stafford Cripps who loved being in control so that he could make everybody suffer for his own sadistic socialistic work ethic which outlawed all enjoyment of anything. Meanwhile, W Germany was just rebuilding & putting own real work ethic into place so that they flourished thruout the 50s while we continued to decline, so that we, as people said, had "won the war but lost the peace". All the fault of those idiot upper-class [he was SIR Stafford Cripps Bart] public-school [Attlee had been at Winchester] bullies, Cripps, Attlee, et al. This was what made the name of 'socialism' stink in the nostrils of the decent British public to this day; so that any Labour poltician who went to the polls with anything approaching real 'socialist' policies from then on was doomed: leading inevitably to the haverings & evasions oif Wilson & Callaghan & the idiocies of the present pathetic Blair/Brown 'New Labour'. of which nuff said. Anyone disagree? Want to make a new thread of it? End of history lesson. End of drift. Back to the bread... |
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13 Apr 10 - 10:45 PM (#2886096) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: mousethief What's a Hovis loaf then? |
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13 Apr 10 - 10:56 PM (#2886103) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe "the War was well over, there was still rationing, & what the idiot Labour Government of the time called "austerity"." I have the impression, which may be wrong, that such "austerity measures" happened in Australia too. Of course, at that time Aussie Pollies were often just blind slaves of "Her Majesty", rather than putting Australia first. Incidentally, I have heard tales from believable sources thatat that time, we had such a glut of things like butter, that they were dumped and buried rather than lift the austerity measures. |
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14 Apr 10 - 02:00 AM (#2886154) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome A Hovis loaf is a loaf made by the Hovis bread company. Years ago it was about the only brown unsliced loaf you could get on general sale. The original is staill on sale now but they also make white bread, sliced bread and other stuff. You can also buy Hovis flour. How come no-one has made the obvious remark while they were on about fairy cakes? "I hope all your fairy cakes turn out like Fanny's..." :D (eG) |
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14 Apr 10 - 04:11 AM (#2886186) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave MacKenzie Granny Haddock strikes again! |
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14 Apr 10 - 04:18 AM (#2886189) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: manitas_at_work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hovis |
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14 Apr 10 - 05:57 AM (#2886230) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Anne Lister Now I'm a little confused between fairy cakes and butterfly cakes, because for me, the cakes where you sliced off the top and make little wings with the top and filled the gap with buttercream were butterfly cakes. Fairy cakes were any small sponge cakes, often covered in icing and other sweet decorations. It's all the more confusing now that cupcakes are being marketed with pastel coloured buttercream swirled on top of them, which makes them look like even fancier fairy cakes. I made the mistake of buying one once to go with a cuppa and it was a dense sponge below the icing and so not nearly as nice as I was expecting. Pikelets and crumpets were not synonymous for me (or a posh/not posh thing). Pikelets are similar to crumpets but much thinner, a crumpet being typically half an inch thick (or more) and a pikelet more like a drop scone/Scotch pancake in depth .... can we get confused with drop scones and Scotch pancakes now? And why has no one discussed crusty bloomers so far? |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:01 AM (#2886235) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave MacKenzie I'm not sure that I want to know about crusty bloomers, especially before breakfast! |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:06 AM (#2886236) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome I think people are shying away from discussing their bloomers - crusty or not - Anne:-) I have noticed Asda doing a derivation of the crusty bloomer called a tiger loaf. Pretty much the same size, shape and consistancy of a bloomer but the crust has distinct stripes. I have never seen it anywhere else - Is the tiger loaf a new thing, exclusive to Asda, or did they get it elsewhere? I agree about crimpets v pikeletts btw. Cheers DeG |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:07 AM (#2886239) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome or maybe it is crimpets vs pukeletts? |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:07 AM (#2886240) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion WIMP! |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:28 AM (#2886250) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 Ya' know.......You guys just keep digging the hole deeper and deeper. You can't even agree with each other on what to call something. But I gotta' hand it to you on the "creative naming" scale you rank right up there. I'm ot sure what image "Fairycake" is meant to invoke but I have a few beauties floating around in my mind and none seem to have much to do with the actual pastry. For whatever your food may lack, you make it up in spades when you name it. Watching a BritCom back 30 or so years ago, they mentioned "Toad in the Hole" and I had no idea what it was. I found a really fine old English Cookbook and found out then gave it a try. There is no real American counterpart to Toad which kind of surprises me as it is exactly the kind of thing that a midwestern American would eat but it never seemed to have crossed the pond. We have it occasionally in our house and I am always confident in feeling we might be the only people in the entire state of Ohio who are having the dish at the time.......or even that week. I won't discuss "Bubble and Squeak" but you can all easily see why that is a favorite of Ol'Spaw. Spaw |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:30 AM (#2886254) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome Spaw - how could you pass up the opportunity to mention Spotted Dick? I am SO disappointed in you... :D |
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14 Apr 10 - 06:34 AM (#2886257) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST They had an article on local TV about this. Nottingham/Anstey called them differently to Coventry. The demarcation line was roughly the A5. Bun/Bap were the two candidate names. People travelled up and down the main road not across it. |
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14 Apr 10 - 07:03 AM (#2886278) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 I'm so ashamed.............This old age stuff is killing me......................... Spas....Spow.....damn, Sppw..........aw nuts.....Sowp..................damn........Spaa...............just fuckit....... |
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14 Apr 10 - 07:17 AM (#2886289) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Nobody's mentioned manchips yet. My late mother used to make them on occasion. There was a family of Huguenot descent who made them in Watchet Somerset. I have not found the recipe anywhere... |
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14 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM (#2886292) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Jack Campin I presume "manchip" = "manchet". There's a Wikipedia entry on that. |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:05 AM (#2886314) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler That looks like the one! When I was little the regional accent in Watchet would have made the "et" and "ip" sound very alike as those vowels were souned similarly and those final consonants were usually soft, hence the change in the word. |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:22 AM (#2886326) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome I'm glad about that. Didn't much like the sound of manchips! Just looking something else up and I found that 'Sally Lunn' is the proper name for a bun from Bath. I had always assumed that it was some sort of rhyming slang. Eeeee, I learn something new every day:-) DeG |
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14 Apr 10 - 08:37 AM (#2886337) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Charmion Now, that's one that did cross the pond -- the Sally Lunn appears in the "quick breads" section of several major American cookbooks, most notably The Joy of Cooking and The New York Times Cookbook. I have never seen them in a supermarket or bakery and, as they seem to require a special baking tin, I have never bothered to make them myself. |
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14 Apr 10 - 11:59 AM (#2886496) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,MadauntieCat Sally Lunn is supposed to come from Sol et Lune- reference to the white cake with golden glaze? Tiger loaves a la Asda are LUSH- the secret is they have sesame oil in the glaze, gives them the amazing smell. I can burrow through the soft underbelly of one of those badboys in minutes. Pisses His Lordship right off, that does. (He's a slices-only man.) Nobody's mentioned Heavy Cake or Fat Rascals yet, or even my favourite, proper saffron buns where you can properly taste the saffron. Last comment for now, if you're in the south west (of UK! UK! UK!) search out a supplier of Hobb's House Bakery products. The best bread I've ever tasted. |
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14 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM (#2886506) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: theleveller If you want to know just about anything about bread, get a copy of Elizabeth David's Bread and Yeast Cookery - an amazing book. |
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14 Apr 10 - 12:24 PM (#2886513) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: MGM·Lion Except, leveller, you won't find there a name for any product that everybody, everywhere, will agree on! ~Michael~ |
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14 Apr 10 - 01:26 PM (#2886552) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 Maybe you could figure it out by just looking at the pictures Mike. You seem to be a pretty smart guy even if you are all messed up on names and stuff............ Spaw |
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14 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM (#2886620) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome According to the web site Sally Lunn was the name of a refugee from France - But I must say it doesn't sound very French to me! http://www.sallylunns.co.uk/history,intro.htm DeG |
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14 Apr 10 - 05:08 PM (#2886701) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Les from Hull I'm not very keen on Bath Buns. I prefer a loofah. |
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14 Apr 10 - 09:00 PM (#2886849) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: LadyJean I have often wondered what the British think when they hear about my absolute favorite breakfast, biscuits and gravy. It is a sublime combination, in no way healthy, but delicious. When I was in England, the breakfasts were wonderful, except for the cold toast. Why eat cold toast? I wonder why they never thought of sausage gravy. In three months, God and my bushes willing, I will have a quart of red currants. Anyone have any ideas as to what I can do with them? |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:09 AM (#2887013) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Dave the Gnome Hi LadyJean - I was not too keen on biscuits and gravy nor was I enamoured with grits - But I must say that the choice of breakfast in the US was fabulous. If you want biscuits and gravy when you are next here try asking for plain scones and white sauce:-) Cold toast is not compulsory but it does have one advantage - The butter doesn't melt into it and, if it was buttered before as well, you get a double dose of cholestrol:-) No idea what to do with redcurrants but, if memory serves me well, they are quite tart - Good candidates for a crumble served with custard? Cheers DeG |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:36 AM (#2887018) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Phil Edwards Cold toast is one my pet hates - the only reason to eat toast cold is because you didn't manage to get to it while it was still warm. At school I heard a talk by a professional translator, who said that once when he was staying in France he asked the son of the house to go down to the bakers' and get him some bread. OK, what kind of bread? Oh, any, just get me some bread. OK, but what kind of bread do you want? I don't mind, I just want some bread. Yes, but when you say bread, what sort of bread? He said it took a good five minutes to make him understand, "and even then he thought I was mad". |
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15 Apr 10 - 06:13 AM (#2887057) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rob Naylor LadyJean: In three months, God and my bushes willing, I will have a quart of red currants. Anyone have any ideas as to what I can do with them? Easy...just eat 'em!!! That;s what happens in our home. A quart is about what we eat when we're picking the bushes. When we're absolutely *glutted* we make redcurrant jelly from the ones that survive long enough to get to the pan. Same with blackcurrants...we eat what we can and make jam with the rest. I've never understood it when people say that red or black currants are "too tart" to eat neat. To me (and the rest of our family) they taste fabulous. But then we use about 2/3 of the sugar in jam and jelly recipes and about 1/2 the sugar given in cake and biscuit recipes, so maybe we're not as infected with sweet tooth syndrome as some. We can't stand shop-bought cakes: FAR too sweet. |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:05 AM (#2887075) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Raggytash Les when you say Pikelets do you really mean crumpets or do you mean Oatcakes, now my understanding is that Crumpets are approx 75mm across and about 8mm deep, Pikelets are slightly wider approx 120mm across but only about 3-4mm deep whereas Oatcakes (predominantly but not exclusively from Staffordshire) are approx 200mm across but only 2mm deep........ stands well back and waits for abuse ..... |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:15 AM (#2887085) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I've had Staffordshire oatcakes (from Booth's supermarket in Lancaster) and Derbyshire oatcakes (home-made, still got the recipe somewhere for them in a WI book) and they are different in taste though they look the same, but I can't explain how quite. |
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15 Apr 10 - 07:55 AM (#2887111) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: catspaw49 Toast always makes me think of the funniest food one-liner I know. In America we believe on excess.....If one or tw is good, 27 are better. We also have a passion for adding foreign words or modifiers which make little sense when translated. A few years ago, Croissants were all the rage and Fran Lebowitz once wrote: "Do you know on this one block you can buy croissants in five different places? There's one store called Bonjour Croissant. It makes me want to go to Paris and open up a store called Hello Toast." And here's a toast video......a celebration of toast in a song by Heywood Banks.......YEAH TOAST Spaw |
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15 Apr 10 - 09:23 AM (#2887177) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Anne Lister Crumbs - oatcakes are something else again, aren't they? I don't think oat is involved in the making of crumpets or pikelets, so I'd be surprised if they were related to either. |
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15 Apr 10 - 10:58 AM (#2887240) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Charmion LadyJean: a quart of red currants isn't enough to make a batch of jelly, but they combine excellently with other fruit, especially strawberries. I have a good small-batch recipe for a "red fruit" jam that I would be happy to send along if you drop me a PM. |
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15 Apr 10 - 11:53 AM (#2887276) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Les from Hull Raggy - pikelets are what the rest of the world calls crumpets (which didn't exist locally when I were a kid) - the thicker variety. Crumpets were what toffee-nosed public school kids toasted in front of an open fire. We used to eat 'em with butter and treacle (which is what we called golden syrup). You had to have a clean knife for the treacle, 'cos it were dead common to have a tin o' treacle wi' bits o' butter in it! |
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15 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM (#2887299) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Marje Dave Mackenzie is right about pancakes/crumpets if you're in Scotland or Northern Ireland - crumpets are the big floppy ones, pancakes are the "Scotch" type, and the other sort of crumpets (the smaller, fatter, holey ones) don't exist so they don't need a name. One distinction they make in those areas is between a "plain" and a "pan" loaf. The "plain" is made in a batch with other loaves so it has no crust on the sides(similar to "batch" loaves but tends to be large and white), while the "pan" is baked in a tin of its own and has crust all the way round. The standard sliced, packed loaf is called a "sliced pan", a term which is not generally understood if you ask for one in England. I love the way the regional differences persist in our words for baked goods. So many other things have become uniform and standardised, it's good to see some local colour remaining in our speech. Someone ought to write a thesis about it before it's too late. There is a actually a branch of linguistics that creates maps to show local pronunciations, and the contour-like lines that join areas with similar words are called "isoglosses". In fact there's the makings of a whole book there. Anyone got a year or two free to go around the country buying bread and buns and mapping the conclusions? Marje |
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15 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM (#2887369) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,MadauntieCat Crumpet = bath sponge, inedible until toasted. Pikelet = crumpet run-over by moderate sized family saloon car. Oatcake (Stafford type) = pikelet who, still dazed from previous collision has fallen under a steamroller. Oatcake (the other sort)= floor tile in disguise. Has 'bits'. To be eaten in extremis. |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:08 PM (#2887417) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Geoff the Duck Les - your Fairy Cake describes what I would call a Butterfly Bun with one small missing ingredient. You have missed out the small dollop of jam put into the excavated hole before filling with buttercream and placing the butterfly's wings on top. "Crumpets were what toffee-nosed public school kids toasted in front of an open fire. " I thought that was Tom Brown? Quack! GtD. |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:18 PM (#2887424) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Adeleh This is a great thread! Now, the crumpet/pikelet/pancake thing had me completely baffled - thanks Marje! I always thought crumpets were made with a mold, pikelets without, so they spread and were more ragged. But why you'd call them a pancake... But where do American pancakes come in? Are they the same as the French ones? And is that a drop scone, or is that something else altogether? I always thought a pancake was the same thing (but a bit fatter if my Mum cooked it) to a crepe - no difference in diameter, you know, the big thing you eat with lemon and sugar and toss every February. Adeleh |
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15 Apr 10 - 04:18 PM (#2887425) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Newport Boy Les: pikelets are what the rest of the world calls crumpets (which didn't exist locally when I were a kid) - the thicker variety. Crumpets were what toffee-nosed public school kids toasted in front of an open fire. We used to eat 'em with butter and treacle (which is what we called golden syrup). You had to have a clean knife for the treacle, 'cos it were dead common to have a tin o' treacle wi' bits o' butter in it! Exactly! That's the same as South Wales - it must be the view from the working areas of the country! We did toast ours in from of the fire - I still have the brass toasting fork (made by my father using materials kindly provided by GKN). BTW - I'm busy, otherwise I would be watching 2 x 1 hour programmes about bread on BBC4 tonight. It's the iPlayer over the weekend for me. Phil |
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15 Apr 10 - 05:27 PM (#2887482) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe In Australia when I was a kid Crumpets - with the holes, were best when toasted, then 'Syrup' - (cane sugar) applied - Usually referred to as Golden Syrup. Drop Scones - there used to be rather heavy cast iron pans with hemispherical indents. They were heated in a wood stove, or even over an open fire. At some predetermined temperature below red heat, a scone mixture would be dropped in, using a spoon to get approximate measures, then the tray returned to the oven. This sudden application of heat would cause a 'flash puffing' effect that made for a light result. In some ways they were a bit like massively sized poffertjes - the Dutch pancakes now quite popular. |
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15 Apr 10 - 08:29 PM (#2887586) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan Drop Scones, pikelets, pancakes etc. Not to be confused with Johnny Cakes, or damper, both of which (even though shops don't sell them) also go well with a dollop of Cockies' Joy, the version of cane syrup that's neither as viscous nor as dark as treacle. Cheers, Rowan |
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15 Apr 10 - 08:34 PM (#2887591) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe Rowan I forget the name for what was effective a damper mix, hand shaped around the end of a stick. After cooking over an open fire, the stick was removed, and Golden Syrup poured in. Was a popular thing in Aussie Scouts, too. |
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15 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM (#2887596) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan My grey matter has let me down on their name, too. Cheers, Rowan |
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16 Apr 10 - 01:44 AM (#2887704) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST Ok, the local library is having their semi annual bake sale, to which I am a major contributor, because that library is one of the few good things in the Godforsaken hellhole I call home. I make mix cupcakes for the sale, because the library ladies keep the prices low, and I am not going to spend a lot for cupcakes that will sell for fifty cents each. I found a mix that called itself confetti cupcakes. The box showed cupcakes with little bits of color in them. I figured when I poured out the mix I'd find it filled with what we in the states call sprinkles. I poured out the mix and it was white. I figured I'd gotten a defective box, until I added the wet ingredients, and all of a sudden the little bits of color appeared. Leaving me to wonder if these cupcakes were safe to offer the youth of Swissvale. They went to the bake sale. But I'm still a bit nonplussed by the whole suddenly appearing bits of color thing. By the way, thanks for the suggestions on currants. |
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16 Apr 10 - 02:10 AM (#2887710) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe 100! |
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16 Apr 10 - 11:41 PM (#2888363) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan I figured when I poured out the mix I'd find it filled with what we in the states call sprinkles. And what we in Oz call "hundreds and thousands"; sprinkled over buttered white bread they become "fairy bread", an essential part of any child's birthday party spread. Cheers, Rowan |
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17 Apr 10 - 07:19 AM (#2888475) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Mr Red Dorset Knob close but no cigar. Not even the Clinton kind..... |
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17 Apr 10 - 07:23 AM (#2888478) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Mr Red and if I wasn't at Upton FF I would go to the Knob Flinging at the Frome Valley Food Festival in Cattistock. |
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17 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM (#2888865) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe "essential part of any child's birthday party spread" Sadly today most children have never seen nor heard of it. Me, I blame Arnott's for bring out biscuits that had these sprinkles, parents just got lazy. :-) |
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19 Apr 10 - 08:08 PM (#2890249) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Snuffy Pikelets? I used to have a reproduction 19th century cookbook with a recipe for Yorkshire Pie Clates!! Wot's a clate when it's a tome? |
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19 Apr 10 - 08:12 PM (#2890253) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: The Fooles Troupe "Yorkshire Pie Clates" Haha - one wonders about the source of the word pikelets... |
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19 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM (#2890254) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Rowan And, locally, there's a woman who organises the "Biggest Morning Tea" fundraising for the Cancer Council who insists that pikelets should be piklets. Cheers, Rowan |
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22 Apr 10 - 04:07 AM (#2891870) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: Raggytash Newport Boy, my explanation is based on my experience in Salford, now it may not be a working area now with massive unemployment but it was working when I was a kid. But by far the best and most accurate description has to go Madauntie Cat, brilliant ! |
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22 Apr 10 - 04:53 AM (#2891886) Subject: RE: Folklore: Bread Rolls From: GUEST,Elfcall Guest 14/04 I was dragged up in Coventry and our 'rolls' were always referred to as batches - sausage batch, cheese batch, etc. IIRC them strange folks in Leicstershire called their rolls cobs. However having one geordie parent and one welsh parent made for interesting comparisons. Elfcall |
