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22 Jun 10 - 03:47 PM (#2932792) Subject: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: olddude Doesn't it just warm your heart to know that despite the economic problems and high unemployment, and people losing their homes that according to all the stats , the richest people can no only maintain their standard of living but can go shopping for more toys .. read this |
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22 Jun 10 - 04:09 PM (#2932808) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Lox In the UK the new Austerity measures mean 20% VAT. In other words, punish the poor. |
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22 Jun 10 - 04:14 PM (#2932813) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 What`s new! |
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22 Jun 10 - 04:52 PM (#2932842) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad It would be interesting to see how much the wealthy benefited from the government stimulus spending as opposed to the poor. |
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22 Jun 10 - 04:53 PM (#2932843) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Uncle_DaveO I haven't seen anything about this on Mudcat so far, but I heard a discussion on NPR that a number of America's (and the world's?) richest people--Bill Gates, Soros, Oprah, and Buffet, that I remember being mentioned--had a meeting and announced a joint intention/recommendation/urging that people in their super-rich league should GIVE AWAY a half of their net worth, either currently or at death. Seems to me there was mention of one or two other super-rich people from other countries were part of the meeting and announcement, too. Dave Oesterreich |
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22 Jun 10 - 04:55 PM (#2932846) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad Only half? - cheap buggers. |
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22 Jun 10 - 05:05 PM (#2932854) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie Sheesh "Only half"? I assume that you, bobad, are not having any trouble keeping food on the table and that the shelter over your head is sound. Therefore, I think you should give away half of your income. I realize the disparity - but people who think they should have a say in how the filthy rich should dispose of their money and in what amounts bugs me. Human nature governs us all; you, no less. |
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22 Jun 10 - 05:24 PM (#2932866) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad I was being only partly facetious, Ebbie. I would not be able to live on half my income but I am sure that Bill Gates, although he might have to tighten his belt somewhat, would manage to get by on only 25 or so billion dollars. |
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22 Jun 10 - 05:31 PM (#2932874) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Leadfingers It must be terrible when you go out for a snack to have to make do with a Fifty Pound bottle of wine instead of the £100 bottle you were having last year ! Last time I went out for a meal , it was a take way fish and chips , without ANY wine ! |
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22 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM (#2932886) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Rapparee Gates and Buffett have been giving away quite a bit already via the Gates Foundation (Buffett tossed in a few billion a couple years back). As Andrew Carnegie said, wealth should only be a means by with others can be helped to achieve wealth. |
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22 Jun 10 - 06:19 PM (#2932895) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Paul Burke Let's be grateful for the rich people who create the good things of this world and are generous enough to let us have some. They should be made Saints. Soon. Saints of course are dead.... |
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22 Jun 10 - 06:28 PM (#2932904) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Rapparee "It's the same the whole world over, Over the whole world it's the same...." |
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22 Jun 10 - 06:41 PM (#2932910) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Donuel old dude 60 is the new 59 so I am sure that you are aware that the rich get richer. Here are some other ways in which they are advancing beyond belief. In order to preserve CEO and CFO bonus and salary decisions to only thmselves they now have a new law which makes it impossible for shareholders to voice any actionable dissent to executive pay. They did this by decreasing the percent of control by shareholders to 1% from 5%. The business of America is business so it is no surprose that the conservative court gave Corporations unlimited monetary contributions to political candidates of their choice. The GO'B'P is all lathered up about BP and are heard saying things like "Obama's treatment of BP is UNAMERICAN! Well BP isn't American so at least it is a true satement. Lately some of the twisted notions of total corporate power unencumbered by any laws is far more important than civilian lives, wildlife, the air, the water and the plantet itself. There was a time when republicans could sport a bumper sticker that said "Save the Whales". Now they can't. Instead they have a Don;t tread on me sticker on one side and on the other "Save the Wells" |
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22 Jun 10 - 07:29 PM (#2932928) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad I love this quote from one of our illustrious Mudcatters, KenM: "Money is like manure..........pile it up and it smells like hell. Spread it around and it helps things grow." |
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22 Jun 10 - 08:24 PM (#2932953) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) Maybe they got there by working for it. Top dozen in order (Forbes): Carlos Slim Helu- American Movil, Latin America's biggest mobile phone company. Bill Gates- Microsoft. Warren Buffet, American Hathaway and Burlington Northern Santa Fe. Muskesh Ambani- petrochemicals, Reliance Industries. Lakshmi Mittal- Arcelon Mittal, world's biggest steel maker. Lawrence Ellison- founder, Oracle data base company. Bernard Arnault- Vuitton, Moet et Chandon, Chinese real estate. Eike Batista- Vale do Rio Doce Mining, gold. Amancio Ortega- Inditex fashion concerns, 4500 stores in 73 countries. Karl Albrecht- German supermarkets, 1000 stores in U. S., etc. Ingvar Kamprad- Ikea Christy Walton & family- She is no. 12; Wal-Mart and Sam's Club (Jim Walton is no. 15 on list, Alice Walton no. 16, S. R. Walton no. 18). Top Saudi no. 19- Saudi, Four Seasons, Citigroup, Fairmont and other investments. David Thompson- Top Canadian at no. 20, Reuters and other media. Michael Bloomberg, mayor of NYC, is no. 23. Sergei Brin and Larry Page of Google are climbing fast. Soros and Oprah are pikers, way down the list somewhere. |
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23 Jun 10 - 12:22 AM (#2933024) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie Bobad, I didn't know how you meant it so I wasn't actually attacking you for saying it, but I find it disturbing when we 'small people' show ourselves as mean-spirited, envious and grasping as any of the really rich ones. There are rich people who hoard their money and chortle over the pile in the night; there are also rich people who use what they don't need to help the helpless. There are rich people who fund research, people who are whole-hearted in their efforts to eradicate simple diseases that need only funding to make it happen. In other words, there are rich people who are trying to make the world a better place. There are also poor people who try to make their own sphere a better place; there are poor people who are mean-spirited, envious and grasping. |
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23 Jun 10 - 12:41 AM (#2933031) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: mousethief Define "earning it". |
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23 Jun 10 - 10:17 AM (#2933248) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Donuel Earning it, in the old fashoined way, could be defined as - we take it prerearably from those who can't fight back. The spokesmen for the rich say that there is nothing wrong with great wealth and that poverty is the seat of evil. They never mention that the concentration of wealth almost always requires the contributions , if not the exploitation, of the poor. $48 billion dollars a year is "earned" from using a card to purchase items and is paid by both buyers and sellers to the banks. As long as we pay a third party to use our own money the banks will take take advantage. The more inconvienient banks make it to get and use our own cash, the more they promote the card system. |
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23 Jun 10 - 11:49 AM (#2933294) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bill D At least there is equity in 'some' things. "The law, in its infinite wisdom, forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread and sleeping under bridges." - Anatole France . |
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23 Jun 10 - 01:04 PM (#2933331) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 There are x dollars to go around. It ain`t rocket surgery. If anyone is getting richer, ipso facto some other person (or persons) is getting poorer. |
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23 Jun 10 - 02:55 PM (#2933408) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: lefthanded guitar I don't worry if the rich have 2 houses or 40 but I just think those at the bottom of the pay scale -who are no less hard working than the baseball players, superstars, corrupt CEOS, etc- people such as health care aides, security workers at airports, miners, farmers, not to mention artists and writers-should at least be able to pay their bills and live adequately. FDR had similar thoughts, would like to see it all come to fruition some day. |
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23 Jun 10 - 04:35 PM (#2933493) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) "x dollars to go round" is nonsense. Enterprise creates money. Look in an economic text if you didn't learn that in school. Even Wikipedia tells the basics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation |
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23 Jun 10 - 04:48 PM (#2933503) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bill D "Enterprise creates money." Umm...but the current financial crisis was fueled by false money... 'enterprising' financial "geniuses" creating paper empires thru complex buying & selling of bets & debts to each other and hoping to guess right. When 'enterprise' creates no goods OR services, but nothing but pyramid schemes, we all suffer. |
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24 Jun 10 - 01:43 PM (#2934089) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 Q, bologna. The Earth is a closed system. Enterprise reallocates money, it doesn`t create it. You go do some thinking about it--withOUT an economic text. |
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24 Jun 10 - 02:11 PM (#2934107) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) In simple terms- Commercial banking system- A simple formula gives the maximum amount of money that an initial deposit can be expanded to, with a specified reserve. Let reserve be R. then the money multiplier is m= 1/R, and is the maximum amount of money that commercoial banks can create for a given quantity of reserves. Scroll down in the Wiki article Money Creation (which is pretty good but simplified) to Money Multiplier. There are problems if the reserve rate is too low or banks make risky loans. Some of these are discussed briefly in the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation |
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24 Jun 10 - 05:51 PM (#2934248) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""In the UK the new Austerity measures mean 20% VAT."" I just love the way that the naysayers use the emotive "twenty percent", when they are actually talking about "plus two and one half percent". In case they haven't noticed, we've been paying seventeen and one half percent for a long time past. Now we pay 25p extra on a ten pounds purchase. Truly devastating?.......Well no! Not really!.....Not even for us low earners. Don T. |
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24 Jun 10 - 06:05 PM (#2934254) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I really have a problem with this culture of envy. So many people take the line that being rich is per se wrong. Even stupid little joyriding teenagers when asked why they keep taking other folkss' cars said "Why should he have a car and I don't?"" Because he worked for it, twerp. I simply do not care that others are rich. I care that I'm not, but not enough to be unhappy about it. I have riches enough in my life, that lack of funds isn't of paramount importance. I have yet to see a truly rich person who looked all that happy. Maybe there's a moral in that, somewhere. Don T. |
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24 Jun 10 - 06:37 PM (#2934269) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert Well, yeah, and it can all be traced to the first president that was purchased by the monied class: their hero, Ronnie Reagan, da' man who began to dismantle the regulatory checks and balences that had been put in place after the Great Depression... Yup, that's when it bagan... But it wasn't just one man... It was much of Congress who were being purchased by the monied class... And that's purdy much what it has been ever since... Less regs... More letting the corpoartion write their own rules anf the fleecing of the working class... And it ain't over yet and might never be over until Boss Hog has squeezed too much and for too long and then historically, things can get very, very ugly... But Boss Hog knows nothin' about history... He thinks that he and his buddies are exempt... Ha!!! That is just how dumb Boss Hog is... B~ |
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25 Jun 10 - 01:20 AM (#2934386) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: DougR Careful, Ebbie, you are beginning to sound a bit like a conservative in your posts to Bobab. :>) DougR |
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25 Jun 10 - 02:50 AM (#2934400) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie In my opinion, DougR, we are all a mixture of conservatism and liberalism. As we should be. Even you. :) |
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25 Jun 10 - 07:37 AM (#2934504) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert Yeah, Eb... Isn't it interesting that the Repubs drag out that same worn out bull every election about wanting smaller government but when they get in power that make the Dems look like novices when it comes to makin' the government even bigger??? And isn't interetsing that the Rpubs go into their deficit hawk posture 'round election time but when they get in power they spend like drunken sailors... It also very interesting to look at a bar graph of deficits over the last 3 decades... Repubs in the deficits go up... Dems in they go down??? But really the most interesting - No, make that sad - part of the deal is that the Repubs have lived at the Dems-want-big-government post so long that the American people have been completely duped into believing the Repub's "BIG LIE"... Yeah, that is very sad and does not bode well for Tom Jefferson's assertion that for democracy to work it would require an "informed electorate"... Guess that explains how the corporations wrestled any sembelance of democracy away from the masses... B~ |
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04 Jul 10 - 07:51 AM (#2939522) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad Buffett donates $1.93bn in shares to charities |
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04 Jul 10 - 09:03 AM (#2939549) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: SPB-Cooperator "Let's be grateful for the rich people who create the good things of this world ......." Are you referring to those who are fabulously rich tossing burgers in MacDonalds, or those who are fabulously rich creaming the profits of those tossing burgers in MacDonalds? Hats of to those who are benevolent with the proceeds of other peoples labour..... |
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04 Jul 10 - 10:42 AM (#2939580) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 If people were paid living wages for their work, it wouldn`t matter that some folks are richer than others. However, when those riches come from toil in which the worker is paid substandard remuneration, it`s no longer a system of equity--it is usury. The people dissing the rich are I think doing so from that perspective--and I hope they continue to do so. Our multi-nationals at work. |
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04 Jul 10 - 11:38 AM (#2939601) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: SPB-Cooperator Isn't that what I said, ironically speaking? |
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04 Jul 10 - 03:06 PM (#2939712) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: DougR Right on, I say! I sure would enjoy being one of them. DougR |
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05 Jul 10 - 01:38 PM (#2940188) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: McGrath of Harlow ...there are also rich people who use what they don't need to help the helpless. If they did that they wouldn't be "rich" any more, they'd just be comfortably well off. Why would any sane person want more than that? (That's not a rhetorical question either, it's something that really puzzles me.) There probably are some people who actually have done that, but I think they are pretty far and few. |
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05 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM (#2940193) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bonzo3legs Why would any sane person not want to be comfortably off and think that nobody else should be? |
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05 Jul 10 - 01:48 PM (#2940196) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: McGrath of Harlow Any reason to think that any sane person does think that, bonzo? |
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05 Jul 10 - 02:11 PM (#2940210) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: John P My problem with the super rich is that, every time, the people who are in a position to decide how to divide up the money decide to keep the lion's share of it for themselves. To my way of thinking, that makes them untrustworthy to be in that position. No one who has made a billion dollars making widgets actually made those widgets themselves. They got super rich by deciding to keep everyone else in the organization poor. It's not so much a matter of how much money there is in the system as how it gets spread around. I agree that enterprise is good for the economy. People who have a great idea or who work really hard should make more than others. I also think no one needs to have income of more than about $500,000 per year. Someone who doesn't work as hard could make $40,000 and the hard worker/inventor/business owner would still make eight times as much and have enough money to spend and spend and never have to work again. While people are working full time and still starving, not able to own a home, not able to get health care, and not able to get an education, then we are making bad choices about how to divide up the money. And don't even get me started on Americans fostering slave labor in third world countries, and our economic and health care systems being destroyed thereby. |
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05 Jul 10 - 04:56 PM (#2940285) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie There are more millionaires in the US than ever before. Even if a good share of their wealth is comprised of their home and personal property, that is rich, because of its worth as collateral. With a million-dollar net worth, it can't be that difficult to make the second million, and I would guess it would get proportionately easier from then on. I'm not sure where I made my wrong turn. :) |
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05 Jul 10 - 06:19 PM (#2940332) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) Warren Buffet has just donated $2 billion to charities. Most went to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, which concerns itself with health, education and poverty problems. The Gates Foundation employs more than 800 people; its gifts so far total over $8 billion. Both Gates and Buffet have called on billionaires to donate at least half of their wealth. The Walmart owners are another donor of billions. The man who made billions in widgets set up the company and employed many workers; he made this employment possible through his inventiveness and his enterprise; he generally works more hours than any of his employees. Without his kind, few people would have the standard of living most of us enjoy. |
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05 Jul 10 - 06:59 PM (#2940357) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: John P All the donations being made are a drop in the bucket of the wealth that is being hoarded by others, as well as by the folks making the donations. I agree that the widget factory owner created the situation where lots of folks have jobs, and that none of us would have the standard of living we enjoy without the efforts of him and his peers. However, he still made billions while keeping other people in poverty. Hundreds of thousands would pay his bills and allow him to live in luxury. Why does he need billions? |
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05 Jul 10 - 07:47 PM (#2940375) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) "keeping other people in poverty" is nonsense. Even sitting in a bank, the money is collateral for loans, mortgages, car purchases, and all the other things we enjoy. |
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05 Jul 10 - 08:05 PM (#2940385) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,Riginslinger I read on a blog over the course of the last few days where some guy had determined that we're drawing the line the wrong way. He says we're drawing a perpendicular line and fighting right to left, when we should be drawing a horizontal line and fighting between rich and poor. |
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06 Jul 10 - 10:04 AM (#2940654) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: John P Q, What money sitting in banks are you talking about? The rich folks' money or the poor folks'? The rich folks are also buying multiple multi-million dollar homes, private jetliners, yachts the size of Manhattan, and senators. Poor folks, on the other hand, don't get to have things like mortgages and cars that require financing. What you are suggesting sounds remarkably like trickle-down economics. I've been trickled on enough, thank you. |
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06 Jul 10 - 10:12 AM (#2940658) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad John Kenneth Galbraith describes trickle-down economics: 'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows.' |
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06 Jul 10 - 10:24 AM (#2940662) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert Yeah, we have some serious voodoo economics going on right now... Just last night it was reported that the corporations are flush with cash... I mean, bigass money here... Yep, pushing $2 Trillion andf, yeah, it is just sitting there... And the folks who have it opening say they are not interested in doing anything with it but let it sit there while the Titanic goes down??? Normal... No one ever said that rich people were smart... They'd rather see the ship sink (with them on it) than to put a few peas in the pot to fix it??? B~ |
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06 Jul 10 - 01:04 PM (#2940717) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bonzo3legs "I really have a problem with this culture of envy. So many people take the line that being rich is per se wrong." So do I, these people also seem to have a problem with inheritance - and I'm yet to receive a proper explanation as to why. But as with any battle of wits - they do have in their numbers a great number of unarmed men and ladies!!! |
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06 Jul 10 - 01:17 PM (#2940726) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) Jobs are created by the rich building those large homes, building planes and yachts, the rewards of their enterprise. |
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06 Jul 10 - 03:08 PM (#2940785) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 Tell that to a kid working in a sweat shop making $200 running shoes and earning a few dimes a day. Poverty in this world is appalling. People who don`t see that likely never will. We worry about ABC warfare--but for poor people, man, their bomb already dropped. |
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06 Jul 10 - 04:39 PM (#2940836) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie Mr. Basketball Shoes Juneau, Alaska's Buddy (Guy) Tabor Mr. Basketball Shoes owns a factory in China and Viet Nam where a 12-year-old girl works for nothing; he don't give a damn Sixteen hours a day, seven days a week and when they break her malnourished body, just throw her out in the street If the workers try to unionize or tell them they protest Basketball Shoes calls the military and they come out and make arrests take the workers to the prisons and there they're left to rot bad food and dirty water behind prison bars and lots Chorus: I said Justice is a wheel, turns slow but it grinds fine My mama said that wheel turns full circle in due time Mr. Basketball Shoes loves money, he'll do anything to succeed He don't care about God or love or human decency This man has no compassion, his heart is filled with greed Ruled from a throne of darkness with dirty evil deeds From the carpet mills of Pakistan and sweat shops of Mexico This is the age of lawlessness, declare the CEOs Republicans in Washington, they all love Basketball Shoes Gives them campaign money and turn their backs on what they do Now I had myself a dream the night my poor old mother died I saw that Wheel of Justice come falling from the sky Oh, what a beautiful light; it made the darkness run No more death, no more slavery or disease of organs |
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06 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM (#2940874) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: McGrath of Harlow I'm still waiting for some suggestions as to why any sane person should want to be rich, rather than being comfortably off, and give the rest away. |
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06 Jul 10 - 06:06 PM (#2940897) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ebbie Of course, one person's well off differs from another's perception. There are many places in the US and in the world at large where a $200,000 house in one place will cost $1.2 million in another place. When you're in the million-dollar neighborhood you're going to need a bigger stash than in 'tother. |
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06 Jul 10 - 10:10 PM (#2941000) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) In May the average house price in Calgary was $483,000. A million dollars don't go far no more. http://www.jimsparrow.com/market-stats.php Rich people? One could take all their billions and give to the world's poor- just a pee in the ocean. Unless people stop breeding like mice, change their governments, change their society and beliefs, the situation will not change. It would be a waste to toss the money around. Much better to give to a charity with well-defined aims and in one's own society, which is what the wealthy are doing. That guy who has an athletic shoe factory- yeah, he should close it down, then perhaps fewer kids would be bred to work in it but I doubt it. Throw a lot of people out of work who market his product, too. |
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06 Jul 10 - 10:22 PM (#2941005) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert Hey, I grew up in the 50's in Northern Virgina (Falls Church, to be exact...) and within' a half a mile of me lived at least one General and Two Admirers... Also living there were several Senators and Representative... The point is that the entire Northern Virginia that I knew was basically 3 bedrorom houses (sometimes 4)... These were not big houses but this is wherte everyone in the D.C. area lived because it was what they could afford... That's the operative "concept" here.... It was what they could afford... Botttom line: Wealth since the 50's has shifted to a small percentage of people and their "subjects".... But isn't that what this thread is all about??? B~ |
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07 Jul 10 - 10:10 AM (#2941171) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Don(Wyziwyg)T No, it strikes me that for many here the attitude seems to be:- My glass is half empty, so instead of getting down to the hard work of filling it, I'll just knock over everybody else's. My attitude is:- My glass is still half full, so it'll be quite a while before I have to worry about dying of thirst, so I've got time to work at acquiring more water. Why should I care that somebody else is better at acquisition than I am, and consequently is able to take it easy for a while? He earned it, and I can do the same. Don T. |
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07 Jul 10 - 11:39 AM (#2941217) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: frogprince There are plenty of very wealthy people in the world whom I have no complaint with. But I sorta wonder whether some of the contributers here have ever noticed that there are also a substantial number of very rich people who have basically wrung their money out of less fortunate people like blood. |
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07 Jul 10 - 02:54 PM (#2941303) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: John P Bonzo3legs: "I really have a problem with this culture of envy. So many people take the line that being rich is per se wrong." So do I, these people also seem to have a problem with inheritance - and I'm yet to receive a proper explanation as to why. But as with any battle of wits - they do have in their numbers a great number of unarmed men and ladies!!! Don(Wyziwyg)T: it strikes me that for many here the attitude seems to be: My glass is half empty, so instead of getting down to the hard work of filling it, I'll just knock over everybody else's. You both seem to assuming that anyone who says the rich are too rich is just envious of the rich. And Bonzo3legs adds that anyone who disagrees with him is witless. All you are doing is being dismissive without actually having to say anything of substance. That's a neat trick if you can get away with it, but it makes both of you useless as conversational partners. Is it possible for you to believe that there are intelligent, principled people who happen to think that we're doing a bad job of deciding how the money in our system gets divided up? Of course I would like to have more money than I do, but that's not why I think the people at the top should have less of it. I would not expect to get any more than I have in a realignment of wealth. As for inheritance: The only reason for not paying inheritance tax I've heard is that "the money has already been taxed once." But the reality of the world is that we tax money when it changes hands. Example: I earn money and pay income tax on it. I then pay it to a vendor, who also pays income tax on it. Each of us only has our money taxed once. When you inherit a bunch of money from your parents, they have already paid income tax on it, but you haven't paid tax on it when it comes to you. Why should you not pay income tax on money you receive? Do you think that businesses should not be required to pay income tax because the money they receive has already been taxed once? |
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07 Jul 10 - 03:18 PM (#2941315) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert The problem of inheritance is that it isn't just the fortunes that are passed down... It's the cushy jobs... And yeah, the ol' man might have worked hard and built a nice successfull business but that really doesn't qualify junior to run it... So junior doesn't run it... He milks it... Lotta that going 'round and explains the high levels of unemeployement... B~ |
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07 Jul 10 - 06:00 PM (#2941407) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: SPB-Cooperator It all depends on the size of the glass - if we start from a point of everyones glass being half empty/full - for the rich (big glasses) to get richer, then that has to come from a lot of small glasses. Also, if every glass has to contribute say 25% of its contents, then in the small glasses it can make the difference between being thirsty, whereas in the case of th ebig glass, the 75% the glass owner would not notice this in terms of thirst as there is only so much water an individual can drink. Moving away from analogies, money is the means of exchange for trading scarce resources. Wealth is that part of money taken out of the exchange system, so unless either there is a favourable balance of payments, or an increase in the money supply then retained wealth has to be at the expense of the poorer either in having less value for their income or a reduction in public spend. Thirdly - wealth can only be relative. If we had 60,000,000 millionaires in the UK (200,000,000 in US?) then the purchasing power of the million would be reduced, i.e. nobody would be any better of as the value would be on paper only. Therefore wealth, or being well off, is dependant upon poverty. Historically, this meant ownership of land, in the industrial revolution, ownership of the means of production. |
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07 Jul 10 - 08:14 PM (#2941472) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) "So junior doesn't run it-he milks it" Old Henry Ford left quite a family. Current board members include Edsel Ford II, a former president. So was his father (don't mention the Edsel- so that was a mistake). William Clay Ford Jr. is a diector; his father also was a director until his retirement. William Ford Sr. runs the Oz component. Seems the family is still viable. The Toyodas have two generations ; president and two directors. Then there was Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach. His son Alfried took over the firm, produced steel and coal for Hitler, was arrested by the Allies, sentenced to 12 years and all his property confiscated, but he came back to regain control not only of the company but the family name Krupp von B u. H, compete in the Olympics, etc etc. The old Thyssen family, dating back to the 1600s, produced steel makers for generations, Baron H. H. Thyssen-Bornemisza finally joining Krupp to form the current ThyssenKrupp business- On and on- |
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08 Jul 10 - 10:14 AM (#2941744) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: John P Yes, Q, and on and on in the other direction and everything in between. You're not proving anything. |
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08 Jul 10 - 10:45 AM (#2941762) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 `Why should I care that somebody else is better at acquisition than I am, and consequently is able to take it easy for a while? He earned it, and I can do the same.` That isn`t what it`s about, really. While some folks get rich by hard work, others do so by using workers with little concern for their welfare. Yes, that`s tough for the worker, but it`ll be one helluva lot tougher for rich folks when finally people begin to wonder where all the cash went. We (people) will either look out for others of face a situation they can`t handle. I think of Russia wherein terror used to control the population (NKVD now KGB). It`s not a good-lookin`world out there anymore. Jose Marti was right. |
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08 Jul 10 - 10:59 AM (#2941767) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,999 Other than I disagree, it was a good post, Don. (Forgot to say that in the last post.) |
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08 Jul 10 - 12:31 PM (#2941826) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) Remarks in mudcat never prove anything, mine included. |
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21 Dec 10 - 09:57 PM (#3059036) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad 56 percent of bankers say bonuses 'not enough' By Daniel Tencer Tuesday, December 21st, 2010 -- 8:44 pm Wall Street's five biggest banks had a banner year in 2010, racking up their second-highest revenues on record, and to celebrate they put aside some $90 billion for year-end bonuses. But an informal poll suggests that more than half of the people receiving those bonuses feel they aren't getting enough. Vanity Fair's Foster Kamer went to Wall Street and carried out an informal poll asking bank employees how they felt about their bonuses. He found that, of the 98 people surveyed, 56 percent said their bonuses were "not enough." Sixty-one percent of those polled said they received a bonus this year, while 39 percent said they didn't. Even if all the respondents who didn't get a bonus were among those who wanted more, that still leaves about one-third of those with bonuses wanting more. "Of the 61 percent who said they received a bonus, 85 percent were men — and just 15 percent were women. And we really tried to talk to women," Kamer writes. But since only 17 of the 98 people surveyed were women, that statistic indicates a general lack of women on Wall Street more than it suggests discrimination in bonus payments. Kamer notes that men were "6.75 percent more likely" to get a bonus than female employees. "Despite being 6.75 percent more likely to receive a bonus, the men who didn't receive bonuses were 24 times more likely to think it was 'unfair,'" Kamen writes. Five of the respondents said they received bonuses of more than $250,000; none of them were women. Kamer notes that the $90 billion set aside for bonuses amounts to more than the economic value of 13 countries. Some economic observers see bonuses as being at the heart of the financial problems that led to the investment banking collapse of 2008 and the resulting government bailout of large financial institutions. In his book Crash of the Titans, Financial Times writer Greg Farrell wrote: "The whole reason everything almost came crashing down in 2008 was twenty-five years of nonstop focus on bonus checks, on compensation. Why did Lehman Brothers go out of business? Because their people kept doing real estate deals long after the market had turned. It produced bigger bonuses for them. Why did AIG keep selling those foolhardy insurance police on CDOs? Because it was easy money and led to bigger bonuses." |
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22 Dec 10 - 12:38 AM (#3059081) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Sandy Mc Lean Capitalism at its peak! Corporate greed rules the world! |
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22 Dec 10 - 08:45 AM (#3059238) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Bobert Here's the part of the story that doesn't make sense... It's no secret that the banks aren't making loans so if they aren't makin' loans then... ...how in world can the bankers be makin' all this money??? Well, I'll tell you how... What they are doing is playing the pea-under-the-shell game with the rest of the American people, the SEC and the Justice Department with their bogus "credit default swaps"... That, in essence is coming up with a fancy term that is really just robbing the cookie jar... Ya' see, Wall Street is sitting on tons of cash and they really don't have to make loans for quite a long time yet can sell bogus crap to one another and take out "commissions" (bonuses) as they do it... Every time they pull off one of these there is less money in the cookie jar but given the amount of money they are sitting on, they can do this for years before the SEC or Justice Department unravels these deals and calls them off... Until then??? The banks won't make loans and the economy will limp along with insufficient growth to create enough jobs to get back to full employment... That, my friends, is what is going down and that is why Wall Street seems to be doing fine while the rest of the country is still mired in a deep recession... B~ |
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22 Dec 10 - 09:13 AM (#3059257) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Lox Q, 999 may not be fully conversant with the concept of the creation of wealth. However, he is 100% correct to point out that this world has finite resources. We can't all be rich, and as long as there are some people hoarding all the resource ownership, there will be people with nothing. Money means nothing without value and its value is based on resources. This idea that if we were all entrepreneurs we could all create our own wealth is utter bollocks as for this to happen you would need an infinite supply of resources. Don, 20% VAT hits the poor harder than the rich. 17.5% VAT hits the poor harder than the rich. VAT hits the poor harder than the rich. The VAT hike is yet more evidence of the poor being punished for the mistakes of bankers. Talking about "the politics of envy" in that context is irrelevant, disingenuous and berays nothing more than an idealistic political position rather than any evidence of attempting to engage with the actual points being made. |
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22 Dec 10 - 03:14 PM (#3059513) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Brian May 'The rich getting richer' . . . . SURPRISE !!!! Not. Basically shameless grabbing bastards - but that's why they're bankers - they treat the rest of the non-banking world with absolute contempt. All this posturing by Government is almost amusing - they NEED the bankers, who are doubtless quaking in their boots at the prospect of being taxed a bit more. That's almost as ridiculous as expecting a millionaire (used to be called England footballers) to show some commitment and actually try to win the game and please all the fans that actually pay their wages. It's the same kind of contempt. I don't recall reading anywhere that it's a fair world though. |
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23 Dec 10 - 03:49 AM (#3059841) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,Patsy No it is not a fair world and I don't see things changing any time soon. It has always been so and the same conversation will be going on 50 years from now. Wealth accumulated by a beneficial invention or from sheer hard work I can't condemn but footballers millions does make me angry especially when they don't perform as well as they should for that money. |
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23 Dec 10 - 09:42 AM (#3060005) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie Worked hard, got rich, sleep like a log. Nothing to be ashamed of. If I wasn't a typical British "reserved modesty is the ultimate policy" dude, I would be cock proud of myself. No.. I'm nowhere near the league of many of those mentioned above, but I strongly suspect hard work and shrewd decisions gets you somewhere, whereas moaning and showing envy gets you into an early grave through stress. The sad bit is; everybody reading this, either side of the pond, won the lottery anyway just by being born in the Western world. Grow up for crying out loud. And anyway, if I owned a football club and buying a player for £50M, £100K per week salary for a four year contract brought in over that period, with sponsorship, increased gates and TV rights etc, £51M, then that is a £1M good investment..... Mind you, I expect the bugger to perform..... But that has little to do with money. Why did Man Utd buy Park? A journeyman by any standard, but the millions from Asian TV interest? Ruddy priceless player. |
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23 Dec 10 - 10:55 AM (#3060042) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Amos Of course the resources of the universe are techniucally limited; but the ratio of opportunities to resources is such that their limits are not anywhere near about to become a problem. The fact is that any enterprising individual with enough bright ideas, persistance and communication CAN become wealthy, if not super-rich. It's a lot harder if you are starting from nothing, but it is not impossible. A |
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23 Dec 10 - 11:57 AM (#3060076) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: mousethief No.. I'm nowhere near the league of many of those mentioned above, but I strongly suspect hard work and shrewd decisions gets you somewhere, whereas moaning and showing envy gets you into an early grave through stress. Why is it that whenever anybody mentions inequities, they're accused of being envious? While I wouldn't mind being mindbogglingly rich, what I chiefly want is for them to stop sucking dry the economy I depend upon. And don't give me the "they earned it" crap. Rich begets rich and there are very few Horatio Algers (although more power to 'em that can). Very very few of us, working as hard as we could, could reach the level of a Wall Street bank executive. The playing field is so tilted it's more like a climbing wall, and those of us who start at the bottom have a lot of climbing to do -- those who are born 5 feet from the top have something of an advantage, I think it should be obvious. |
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23 Dec 10 - 05:28 PM (#3060292) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Lox Amos, 1. I'm talking about the resources of the earth not the resources of the universe. 2. Any individual can become rich, but not all individuals. 3. The Earth is already subject to unsustainable resource consumption and economic growth. 4. When one individual sucks up all the benefits of an opportunity, they make that wealth exclusive to them and leave others in poverty. True enterprise in my mind means spotting opportunities and then sharing the work and the rewards. |
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23 Dec 10 - 05:51 PM (#3060307) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: meself I like Shania Twain's attitude: "It's not like I DESERVE all this. Nobody DESERVES this much money." Paraphrasing, but very close to her exact words in a TV interview. ----------------------------------------------- "Why is it that whenever anybody mentions inequities, they're accused of being envious?" Because the ones doing the accusing are well-off, and they can't imagine anyone less well-off not being envious, as they would be, and as they are of those who are better-off than them. |
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23 Dec 10 - 06:09 PM (#3060317) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad "Because the ones doing the accusing are well-off, and they can't imagine anyone less well-off not being envious, as they would be, and as they are of those who are better-off than them." You got that right, meself. |
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23 Dec 10 - 06:16 PM (#3060319) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Lox If the equation "work = wealth" were true then the street sweeper who works in our neighbourhood would be a multi-millionaire. Rain, Shine, Sleet or Snow - he's out there, sweeping, bagging, and gritting - and he is always pleasant and cheery. In addition, I don't consider risk free betting to be hard work, nor do I consider the dividend from a succesful risk free bet to be money earned. I'm starting to question the bail out on the basis that the gamblers at the top get to carry on betting, believing that there is no risk as they will not only lose nothing from failed bets, but if they bankrupt their employers they will be bailed out - and the cycle will continue. I don't know what the alternative is, but they need to be brought back to reality somehow. |
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24 Dec 10 - 01:39 PM (#3060781) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) Methinks some don't know the difference between inequities and inequalities. One may think inequalities are inequitous, but they are not the same. |
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24 Dec 10 - 02:26 PM (#3060792) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Amos "Any individual can become rich, but not all individuals." Well, what's the differentiating factor? For any given individual, you seem to think, there may be some fatal flaw or kismet or something in the stars or something, which defines whrether is one of those who could become wealthy or one of those who could not? What is the difference? I submit it has to do with how much energy they are capable of directing outward, how much new thinking they are capable of doing, how much creative thought, etc. A |
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24 Dec 10 - 11:51 PM (#3060980) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: mousethief I submit it has to do with how much energy they are capable of directing outward, how much new thinking they are capable of doing, how much creative thought, etc. And what kind of education they get due to where they live due to their parents' income level. And what kind of college education, if any, their parents can help them afford. And whether or not they can leverage any of their parents' acquaintances. And whether they can find a job that allows them to do more than scrape by. And what the economy is doing when they start looking for their first post-school job. And what they look like (however wrong it is, ugly people are less likely to be hired--this has been studied so don't say it ain't so). And how f***ing tall they are! (same deal). And what accent they grew up with. And what color their skin is. This is NOT NOT NOT a meritocracy. Learn this, memorize it, write it on your foreheads and the back of your wrists. Anybody who tells you otherwise is either denying the advantages they did nothing to gain, or is selling you something. |
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25 Dec 10 - 05:57 AM (#3061065) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Lox No Amos, You are reading my posts in isolation from each other and not paying attention to the consistent point. Not everyone can get rich beacause there aren't the resources in the world to sustain everyone getting rich. There are only the resources in the world to sustain a small minority getting rich. |
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25 Dec 10 - 08:37 AM (#3061092) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad mousethief; sadly, what you say is too right. |
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25 Dec 10 - 09:33 AM (#3061103) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Ed T I suspect the "rags to richess" story happens, but it is likely the exception rather than the rule...especially today. Most of the rich likely started off with some type of big advantage at the start of their career (and not necessarily education). It could be financial, or some type of help, from their parents (it is often, but not always money, but, sometimes other contacts). |
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25 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM (#3061291) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Q (Frank Staplin) I don't think Amos said everyone could get rich. Desire, creativity, diligence are factors. Many of us are happy with a comfortable position and have no desire to take on the problems of the wealthy. |
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26 Dec 10 - 09:35 AM (#3061457) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,Shimrod If you want to know how big corporations got to be so powerful and how they are trashing the planet for profit read Polly Higgins' book: 'Eradicating Ecocide' Shepheard-Walwyn (Publishers)Ltd, 2010 (ISBN: 978-0-85683-275-8). She believes that Ecocide should be made the fifth Crime Against Peace, along with Genocide, Crimes Against Humanity, War Crimes and Crimes of Agression. At the moment the law regards a corporation as a 'fictional person' who has rights but few responsibilities - except making a profit. If Ecocide was made an international crime then CEOs, Directors etc. (i.e. actual people) could be tried for their crimes and, if found guilty, sent to prison. Find out more by going to her website: www.thisisecocide.com. |
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26 Dec 10 - 04:42 PM (#3061638) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: Sandy Mc Lean If the resources of this world are compared to a pie all could have a fair share. Some are not satisfied until they have filled their gut eating someone else's slice. |
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26 Dec 10 - 05:44 PM (#3061663) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: akenaton Riginslinger.....Right on the button man! Dylan said "There ain't no left wing an' right wing, there's just UP wing an' DOWN wing" |
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29 Dec 10 - 04:29 PM (#3063428) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: bobad Professors start website for rich to give back tax cuts By David Edwards Wednesday, December 29th, 2010 -- 3:35 pm A new website is encouraging the richest Americans to give their tax cuts to charity. Four professors from Yale and Cornell universities created the Give It Back for Jobs website after Republicans forced President Barack Obama to extend Bush-era tax cuts for even the wealthiest Americans. "Quite possibly, the President had no good alternative," the site noted. "All the Bush tax cuts, not just those for the wealthy, were scheduled to expire at the end of this month, jeopardizing an already fragile economic recovery. "But we citizens need not abandon ourselves to this failure of government. Instead, ordinary Americans, acting together, can create shadow fiscal policy. By acting together, we can set the country moving toward a just prosperity. "Americans who have the means should refuse to surrender to Senate Republicans. We should act, together, to give back our Bush tax cuts, by making donations to organizations that promote fairness, economic growth, and a vibrant middle class," the site added. The site uses the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center Microsimulation Model to calculate the tax savings. For example, a single person making $200,000 would see an addition tax savings of $5,476. Suggested charities include Habitat for Humanity, The Salvation Army, Children's Aid Society and Nurse Family Partnership. A custom charity may be selected as well. "We can, in this way, begin to redeem candidate Obama's promise that 'we are the ones we've been waiting for,'" the site concluded. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/professors-start-website-rich-give-tax-cuts/ |
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30 Dec 10 - 01:07 PM (#3063924) Subject: RE: BS: World's Richest People Get Richer From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie So it isn't anything to do with envy? So stop demonising people for having a few bob. Making money and then sharing it is indeed a noble cause. My tax bill is just that, but rather than think myself noble, I accept it is my obligation towards the social infrastructure we entrust governments to provide. What I give of my time and money over and above that is my affair, and I won't be preached to by others. Yes, there are obscene amounts being made out there and commerce could thrive every bit as much if the cut of those at the top was a bit less and the spread of profit worked its way down the workforce. Can't disagree, but by the same token, can't see how to fully implement it in one country without those at the top moving to another country who are more in tune with their thinking. (Vodafone UK profits being taxed in Luxembourg for instance.) When the G20 debated international responses to calls to curb banking bad practice, there was real intention but realisation that G20 is just that, 20 countries. the multinationals and their bankers could easily make countries 21 - 40 the new G20. So... short of revolution, how can you do it? And if you did go for revolution, that is where we part company, as I will be fighting with the "haves" slaying the "have nots." Real Politik. |