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15 Aug 10 - 12:50 AM (#2965476) Subject: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk ...when George Bush, Dick Cheney, Al Gore, Barack Obama, Ahmadinejad, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sarah Palin aren't around anymore???? What then? Who will then inherit the fury of our righteous wrath? Hmm? Who will haunt the collective anxiety closet? Who will inspire countless threads filled with outrage and hyperbole? Any guesses? |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:14 AM (#2965484) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: mousethief Maybe Bush's daughters will go into politics, once they've dried out. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:13 AM (#2965490) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Georgiansilver Whoever replaces them obviously.. also... God! (That of course is my Christian God as no-one blames any of the others)....Hospitals...Police...Social Services...etc etc.. there will always be someone to blame! |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:22 AM (#2965491) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) The next group of power hungry con artists. I don't think all politicians are corrupt lying con-artists of course, only the ones who are good at winning elections. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:31 AM (#2965494) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Sometime soon, the penny will drop and we will see our own stupidity greed and hypocrisy is what allows the rich and powereful to manipulate us. We could change the world if we really wanted, but we are almost all afraid of losing the little bag of "stuff" that we have gleaned from the capitalist skip.....and our lottery ticket of course! Sorry to keep harping on about the "liberals", but the moderates are the ones who hold back change, they are the new voices of conservatism, they are the ones who believe we can organise ourselves out of this mess.....aye right!! |
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15 Aug 10 - 08:10 AM (#2965589) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: VirginiaTam nargles |
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15 Aug 10 - 08:20 AM (#2965594) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: bobad "(That of course is my Christian God as no-one blames any of the others)" The're all the same. |
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15 Aug 10 - 08:40 AM (#2965600) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Georgiansilver bobad... why doesn't Allah or Buddah or Mohammed get the blame... if they all the same?? Perhaps you could explain my apparent misunderstanding! |
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15 Aug 10 - 08:45 AM (#2965602) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bobert I don't think we need anymore bad guys, LH... The downward spiril of the country can be traced to Ranald Reagan specifically.... Yeah, it had always been this big dream of the anti-FDR Repubs to dismantle the New Deal by "starving the beast" but until Reagan no progress was made but he sho nuff got the ball rolling and all he had to do is pass it off to his buddies, Bush I, Clinton and Bush II and they have done their fair share... But make no bones about it, Ronnie gets the lion's share of the credit... B~ |
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15 Aug 10 - 09:47 AM (#2965632) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ed T "Blame it on the Stones; Blame it on the Stones You'll feel so much better, knowing you don't stand alone Join the accusation; save the bleeding nation Get it off your shoulders; blame it on the Stones" |
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15 Aug 10 - 10:43 AM (#2965659) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: VirginiaTam I feel guilty enough, I might as well take the blame. Wait! Weren't whipping boys paid to take punishment? This sounds like a damn good business opportunity. I could start a global franchise. |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM (#2965672) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Dave MacKenzie I thought it was all Margaret Thatcher's fault (apart from the bits we can blame on Bill Gates). |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:47 AM (#2965686) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos I feel personally responsible for it all; I will therefore be willing to stand as the Icon of All Blame, for a nominal fee of $5 per sling, arrow, jibe, jab, finger-point, accusation, or other act of blame. Please notify my office to make arrangements in advance of any inteded date of such act and ensure you have counted correctly. As Icon of Blame, no credit may be extended, and payments must be made in cash, check, money order or Paypal transfer in advance of actual blaming. Unpaid blames will be assiduously prosecuted. |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM (#2965691) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton No fee for you Amos I'm afraid.....the tumbril will be round in the morning! But you won't be lonely, most of Mudcat will be squashed in beside you. Problem is, what are we to do with all these giant heads? |
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15 Aug 10 - 12:15 PM (#2965704) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: VirginiaTam Amos...My idea.... My lawyer will be contacting your lawyer. |
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15 Aug 10 - 12:46 PM (#2965733) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Greg F. That of course is my Christian God as no-one blames any of the others) Thought there only WAS one, HiYo Silver- or are you a closet polytheist? |
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15 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM (#2965738) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: maple_leaf_boy Bush's daughters in politics. I don't think they'll get elected. |
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15 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM (#2965754) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos VT: You can blame me, among other things, for not reading the thread carefully. But since you have pre-empted the business model, I must hold myself Blameless, and will file suit against any attempt to impose blame on me. As a special dispensation toward those who were considering bringing me custom during the short period when I was in business as a blame icon, there will be no fees for anyone seeking to attach blamelessness to me in my new business plan, until September 12th, after which attributions of blamelessness will be evaluated on a case by case basis. My services will be available to any legal specialists who require an unimpeachable witness and for those contemplating shady business operations who need a co-conspirator who is beyond all blame. Republicans please take note and pass the word: blamelessness for hire, will travel. A |
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15 Aug 10 - 01:35 PM (#2965761) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Lox Georgian Silver asks: "why doesn't Allah or Buddah or Mohammed get the blame... if they all the same?? Perhaps you could explain my apparent misunderstanding!" Georgian Silver obviously doesn't read the Daily Mail, Daily Express, Telegraph, Sun, Sport etc etc etc. Nor indeed watch any Murdoch owned TV. If you did you would be aware that Allah and Mohammed get a disproportionate amount of blame. I'm sure that if Buddha was a god he'd get blamed too. |
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15 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM (#2965763) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie Amos, I feel there may be a business opportunity for you attached to in the firm of Lane, Fielding, Swan and Patterson, Layabouts for Hire. Please contact Catspaw for more information. VirginiaTam, for all I know, could be the United Kingdom representative. Speaking as an interested observer, it appears to me that you are both eminently qualified. |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:17 PM (#2965790) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk I knew all along that Amos was really to blame for it all, I just didn't want to come out point blank and say so, because he's my friend. ;-) But Amos himself has stepped bravely forward and volunteered the information. Note that he expects to profit by this shameless disclosure! What an outrageous scoundrel the man is! How shall we punish him, this malefactor who is responsible for all of humanity's collective woes plus climate change and continental drift? What punishment could possibly make up for all that? As an aside, Barack Obama, Al Gore, Sarah Palin and all the headliners who usually get blamed for the stuff we're all worried about can breathe easier now, knowing that they are off the hook since Amos has taken full responsibility for the calamities they would normally get blamed for. That just goes to show that every cloud has a silver lining, eh? ;-) I bet Obama will sleep well tonight for the first time in months. |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:27 PM (#2965798) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Rapparee ...And if you ever get back home you'll never be the same The man that was before Vietnam can never be again And in ten years time when you look back to weigh and count the cost Perhaps you'll find that Vietnam gave you back more than you lost For from it, if you gain nothing else Perhaps you may get to know yourself. |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:46 PM (#2965806) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: VirginiaTam Amos... maybe we can do a deal... You got creativity and the mouth to back it up. Would you consider being the marketing director of my business? If not, could I at least buy the name Icon of Blame for my business? |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM (#2965807) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amergin I will blame all the ills of the world on William Shatner.... |
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15 Aug 10 - 02:50 PM (#2965809) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Once you get it together, why not erect a giant statue of Amos as the official National Icon of Blame? It could be placed somewhere along the California coast near San Diego, and people could come from all over the country to photograph their family members standing at its feet with silly grins on their faces. I'm thinking of something at least the height of Mount Rushmore and done in white marble. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:05 PM (#2965826) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: VirginiaTam Little premature for that LH. Need to get this out of the idea stage and working profitably for say at least 3 months before we can start talking national monument. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:13 PM (#2965830) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Yeah, I guess. Well, it's something to look forward to anyway. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM (#2965836) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos I would really like a white marble statue of suc h impressive dimension,LH, and I thank you profusely for dreaming it up. It is far more noble, more perfect, more useful, more valuable, more insightful, more aesthetically perfect, and more creative than anything you have dreamed up hitherto including the idea of crossing William Shatner with a dachshund. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:25 PM (#2965839) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu Would that be a cross inbred? |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM (#2965842) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Amos - Excellent. I thought an appeal to your not inconsiderable vanity would be well received. I concur that the proposed crossing of Shatner with a Dachshund was one of my less successful ideas. It was abandoned when the lab determined that no Dachshund's heart (or legs) could withstand the loadbearing that would be required should such an experiment be brought to its logical conclusion. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:28 PM (#2965843) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie Nah. They'd be smilin'. |
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15 Aug 10 - 03:38 PM (#2965847) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Rapparee NOT white or any other color of marble. Too soft, wouldn't last. In perhaps as little a hundred years you'd have a melted glob of white, lichen-stained, rock. Granite, however, is a different story. A nice granite statue, giving off nice, carcinogenic radon gas -- what a gift for the future! |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM (#2965866) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,kendall Bobert, you are dead on! He promised to balance the budget. In 8 years he never even submitted one.He lied about Iran Contra, he lied about Arms for hostages, He cut taxes for the rich. In his second year, unemployment was higher than it is today!(Poor old GHW Bush, he had to raise taxes to balance Mr. Raygun's mistake) He left us a 200 Billion dollar deficit, and his DEregulation set the stage for today's financial mess.He sent Bugs Bunny to guard the carrots. Some of Bug's friends, Bernie Maddoff, Mr. Cox of the S.E.C. Ken Lay of Enron. There were more but we all remember these thieves. They claim to be conservatives, yet they ran up more debt than any previous Democrat. These figures are available to anyone who wants them. |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM (#2965878) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: olddude LH with or without the cowboy hat? |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM (#2965879) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu We have the same problem here, Kendall. We had a surplus under the Liberals. Harper's Conservative government made short work of that. Conservative my ass. |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM (#2965882) Subject: RE: BS: Whom will we blame for everything when... From: McGrath of Harlow Note the correction to this thread title above. Standards are slipping... |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:44 PM (#2965896) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Oh, dear! That's right, it should be "whom". In fact it should probably be "Whom shall we blame..." |
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15 Aug 10 - 04:57 PM (#2965905) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu There's the true answer... pedants! |
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15 Aug 10 - 05:06 PM (#2965911) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Who buggers about with the thread titles?....This practice could lead to all sorts of problems....dreadful puns, crude jokes ect. Shouldn't be alloooow'd!! |
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15 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM (#2965918) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""If you did you would be aware that Allah and Mohammed get a disproportionate amount of blame. I'm sure that if Buddha was a god he'd get blamed too."" Last I heard Mohammed wasn't actually a God, so why's he copped more brickbats than Buddha? Don T. |
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15 Aug 10 - 05:24 PM (#2965921) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu You mean, "Whom buggers..."? Geeze oh eh? |
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15 Aug 10 - 05:32 PM (#2965926) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Even worse ...Who buggers whom? |
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15 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM (#2965927) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: chazkratz I'm all for the statue, so long as the feet are bare for our ultimate tribute, the golden shower. Or maybe a VIP platform above the head... Charles (and, although there's no politico-economic excuse for it, a statue of Catspaw on the slopes of Mt. Lassen, over one of the volcanic fissures emitting noxious gasses) |
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15 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM (#2965957) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Excellent idea, Chas!! He's used to being intubated so it would be lifelike... A |
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15 Aug 10 - 06:47 PM (#2965964) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Dave MacKenzie "Problem is, what are we to do with all these giant heads? " How many William Shatners are there? |
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15 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM (#2965968) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Rapparee Why not Old Faithful, right in Yellowstone? You've got noxious gases and by a simple redirection of the water, why never to trust noxious gases. A statue of Ol' Spaw, standing like the Colossus of Rhodes, every hours or so the geyser going up one leg and out the back.... |
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15 Aug 10 - 06:55 PM (#2965969) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity We can only blame ourselves, for not allowing the spirit of the One, from where we came, come through, and rule our lives! The rest is just the way it's supposed to be, for that One, to act out, what it is!....We're either with it, or lost, thinking we only belong to these three dimensions.... ....Sanity |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM (#2965977) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie huh? |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:15 PM (#2965984) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: mousethief Bush's daughters in politics. I don't think they'll get elected. Well, against all reason their dad was elected twice: once by the electorate, and once by the Supreme Court. |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:29 PM (#2965996) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Dave MacKenzie "we only belong to these three dimensions...." I usually need four, with possibly another four to compensate for curvature. I've not had to use the 9th, 10th and 11th so far. |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:35 PM (#2966001) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Dave, I agree with you wholeheartedly! ,,and by the way, music comes from other than the three, people usually think of. They still don't know WHY it works, the way it does! Jeez, ya' wanna' get into parallel universes?? Look,...one just went by.......................I heard the music.......! GfS |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:37 PM (#2966003) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos GFS is right in principle if a tad off in detail. A |
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15 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM (#2966009) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: mousethief I've not had to use the 9th, 10th and 11th so far. Yeah, but your leptons do. |
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15 Aug 10 - 08:17 PM (#2966023) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Right on, GfS. ;-) Careful, though...you may be casting pearls before swine, and you know what happens then! |
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15 Aug 10 - 09:36 PM (#2966056) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie Don't call yourself a swine, Little Hawk. You ain't that bad. |
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15 Aug 10 - 09:55 PM (#2966070) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos I think self-reflection disqualifies you from the ranks of the porcine. A |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:16 PM (#2966106) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Amos, (and friends)....I didn't go into 'details'. Those who know them, are already in them...to a degree.........but I could, but then, you might think its a 'vast right wing conspiracy'...DUCK!!! GfS |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:18 PM (#2966108) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Rapparee There's a duck in the vast right wing conspiracy? |
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15 Aug 10 - 11:45 PM (#2966120) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Well, I swan! Or...do I goose? Duck? Pheasant? Hmmm. Thanks, Ebbie. ;-) I needed that bit of reassurance. |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM (#2966157) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Rapaire: "There's a duck in the vast right wing conspiracy?" Some bitch quack made that up, when they were on to her! Grins, GfS |
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16 Aug 10 - 08:02 AM (#2966284) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Patsy Buddah is not really a God more a phylisophical path to follow if wish to follow it. I blame it all on the Stones. |
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16 Aug 10 - 09:13 AM (#2966325) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Greg F. These figures are available to anyone who wants them. Ah, but they DON'T want them. And when they have them, they can't use them. And if they use them, they refuse to believe them. Its called mental illness and/or imbecility. |
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16 Aug 10 - 11:47 AM (#2966398) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos The vast right wing conspiracy duck is kind of like the AFLAC duck, only instead of saying "Aflac" he says "Socialist!". A |
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16 Aug 10 - 11:56 AM (#2966404) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Amos Lightfoot: "The vast right wing conspiracy duck is kind of like the AFLAC duck, only instead of saying "Aflac" he says "Change You can Believe In!".... Or something like that! GfS |
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16 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM (#2966407) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos You are clearly the One, GfS!! A |
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16 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM (#2966431) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Gosh! Look at all the change. Wowee. Makes your head spin, eh? I predict more wars and occupations by the New World Order. |
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16 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM (#2966473) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Uncle_DaveO I've been thinking about the spinoffs on this new business. Little Hawk said: As an aside, Barack Obama, Al Gore, Sarah Palin and all the headliners who usually get blamed for the stuff we're all worried about can breathe easier now, knowing that they are off the hook since Amos has taken full responsibility for the calamities they would normally get blamed for. Maybe Amos should bill Obama, Palin, Gore, et al. for his services in taking the blame off them. But on the other hand, maybe they should bill him for their services as "rainmakers", drumming up business! More business for VirginiaTam as arbitrator of the reciprocal disputes. Good for everyone, all around! Dave Oesterreich |
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16 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM (#2966475) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D "We can only blame ourselves, for not allowing the spirit of the One, from where we came, come through, and rule our lives! It just hit me....I remembered this: The Higher Pantheism in a Nutshell Algernon Charles Swinburne (1837-1909) One, who is not, we see: but one, whom we see not, is: Surely this is not that: but that is assuredly this. What, and wherefore, and whence? for under is over and under: If thunder could be without lightning, lightning could be without thunder. Doubt is faith in the main: but faith, on the whole, is doubt: We cannot believe by proof: but could we believe without? Why, and whither, and how? for barley and rye are not clover: Neither are straight lines curves: yet over is under and over. Two and two may be four: but four and four are not eight: Fate and God may be twain: but God is the same thing as fate. Ask a man what he thinks, and get from a man what he feels: God, once caught in the fact, shows you a fair pair of heels. Body and spirit are twins: God only knows which is which: The soul squats down in the flesh, like a tinker drunk in a ditch. More is the whole than a part: but half is more than the whole: Clearly, the soul is the body: but is not the body the soul? One and two are not one: but one and nothing is two: Truth can hardly be false, if falsehood cannot be true. Once the mastodon was: pterodactyls were common as cocks: Then the mammoth was God: now is He a prize ox. Parallels all things are: yet many of these are askew: You are certainly I: but certainly I am not you. Springs the rock from the plain, shoots the stream from the rock: Cocks exist for the hen: but hens exist for the cock. God, whom we see not, is: and God, who is not, we see: Fiddle, we know, is diddle: and diddle, we take it, is dee. ------------------------------------------------------- "Notes 1 ] The poem is a parody of Tennyson's "The Higher Pantheism." Swinburne writes in a letter of January 15, 1870: "I looked at Tennyson's `Higher Pantheism' again -- not bad verse altogether, but what gabble and babble of half-hatched thoughts in half-baked words! and wrote at the tail of this summary of his theology: `God, whom we see not, is; and God, who is not, we see: Fiddle, we know, is diddle: and diddle is possibly dee.' I think it is terse and accurate as a Tennysonian compendium." (The Complete Works of Algernon Charles Swinburne, ed. Sir Edmund Gosse and Thomas James Wise [London: William Heinemann, 1926]: II, 86). |
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16 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM (#2966483) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk It's always far easier to destroy or tear down than it is to create. |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM (#2966505) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Except those things that really NEED to be torn down and dispensed with, like deep-seated human irrationality. THOSE things stay around for effing EVER! A |
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16 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM (#2966510) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk I believe you are evading my point, sir. ;-) How irresponsible and irrational of you. |
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17 Aug 10 - 06:24 AM (#2966990) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: George Papavgeris .... Why is everyone so suddenly ill at ease and confused (just look how solemn their faces are)? Why are the streets and the squares all at once empty, as everyone heads for home, lost in their thoughts? Because it's night now, and the barbarians haven't shown up. And there are others, just back from the borderlands, who claim that the barbarians no longer exist. What in the world will we do without barbarians? Those people would have been a solution, of sorts. (C.P. Cavafy, The Canon. Translated from the Greek by Stratis Haviaras, Hermes Publishing, 2004) |
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17 Aug 10 - 09:46 AM (#2967082) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Greg F. Was a time "The Commies" were responsible for all things evil - we'd have been better off in the long run if Ronnie Reagan hadn't single-handedly destryed the Communist Menace. |
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17 Aug 10 - 10:14 AM (#2967101) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: MikeL2 Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Crow Sister - PM Date: 15 Aug 10 - 03:22 AM Hi Crow sister.....well that let's off George Brown then !! ha ha Cheers MikeL2 |
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17 Aug 10 - 11:32 AM (#2967152) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Islam has taken over the spot the Commies once held, Greg. ;-) Funny, isn't it, how someone always conveniently comes along so that the USA's giant defence industry can keep churning out nice shiny new weapons? |
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17 Aug 10 - 12:08 PM (#2967173) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Funny? Mass producing devices meant to slaughter men and women? No, not funny in the goddamned least. A |
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17 Aug 10 - 02:57 PM (#2967301) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Neil D Albanians |
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17 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM (#2967432) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: John P I have it on very good authority that Jesus died to take away your sins. Does that mean he's to blame for any residual evil, or at least evil-doing on the part of Christians? |
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17 Aug 10 - 06:04 PM (#2967439) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D ♫"Jesus died to save our sins.. Glory to God, we're gonna NEED 'em again!"♫ The Weavers..in "Rock Island Line" |
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17 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM (#2967441) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos I've heard that on "authority" as well, John P, but I questioned the "good" part of the equation then, and do so still. I am sure I am much more responsible for recent sins than Jesus. Unless he has returned as a pot-bellied motorcycle gangster or something... A |
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17 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM (#2967455) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: John P Ok, Amos, thanks for the visual image . . . I've heard of Christ on a crutch, but Christ on a chopper??? |
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17 Aug 10 - 06:46 PM (#2967467) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu Christ on a chopper... hahahahahaa. |
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17 Aug 10 - 07:58 PM (#2967518) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: John P I, of course, am entirely blameless in all things. Guilt is for wimps. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:21 AM (#2967631) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk One thing I have never believed about Jesus was that he died for anyone's sins or on behalf of anyone's sins...I don't buy that concept at all. It's the last thing I would think about Jesus or anyone else like him. I know it's a very popular concept in Christianity, but it isn't one that makes a particle of sense to me. |
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18 Aug 10 - 06:24 AM (#2967729) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: GUEST,Patsy Blame Walt Disney, he made everything sweet sugary and nice lulling us into a false sense of security and niceness. |
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18 Aug 10 - 10:59 AM (#2967867) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D (paraphrased) Jesus was walking down the road when he met a man. "I have come to die for your sins!", Jesus said. "Then, " replied the man,"What am *I* to die for?" Jesus paused for a moment in thought, then too out a small notebook. "If I may have your name & address, an answer will be sent to you." from "Jesus Christs" by AJ Langguth (I have the book, but can't put my hands on it right now for the exact quote" |
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18 Aug 10 - 11:04 AM (#2967869) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Uncle_DaveO John P, as I understand the Christian concept that Jesus died for our (everybody's) sins; it isn't that there wouldn't be any more sin(s), but that the spiritual penalties of the inevitable sin(s) were taken away. Dave Oesterreich |
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18 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM (#2967876) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: olddude You have a problem Bill, I do so hope you figure it out sometime soon. You got this hatred for anyone of any belief and that does sadden me because I think you are a decent person .. but reading your posts I see little difference in what you do and say vs the Rev Hagee's on TV ... same messages only opposite in direction and it is sad to me. but hey to each their own |
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18 Aug 10 - 12:03 PM (#2967907) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton I think Olddude, that much of the vitreol we see on these pages directed aginst religion is politically inspired, "Christianity" and other religions are erroniously viewed as bastions of conservatism and an obstacle to the furtherance of the "liberal" agenda. I view myself as a radical, politically left, and socially I try to live by reason, regardless of whether my views are regarded as left or right. True Christianity is a fine philosophy, with the added spiritual element for those who feel the need of it.....and there are many millions who do. Why do the "gods"who walk among men wish to deny them their comfort? |
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18 Aug 10 - 12:23 PM (#2967917) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos The problem, good Ake, is not the philosophy, or the spiritual beliefs. Liberals take exception when the cultural burden and the vocabulary of those beliefs and practices are used in an effort to control or manipulate others. As a general rule a liberal (in this country, anyway) believes the spiritual beliefs and religious practices are a provate matter and should not be used as the basis for politiocal intercession into the lives of other people. Although I have no investment in the interpreted Christian belief structures that some people carry through thier life, I have absolutely no reason to fear them or consider them a threat, or in any way think they are any of my business. On the other hand when those doctrines are used as the grounds for political action, often erroneously -- such as when the Mornoms funded Proposition 8 in California -- I take exception for many reasons, none of them religious. Religion should never be allowed to colr the contemplation of optimum political actions. It's just wrong-headed tothing so highly of your own religion that you believe it gives you the right to mess with others' lives and life in the commons. A |
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18 Aug 10 - 12:26 PM (#2967920) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D ??? Dan... that makes me overwhelmingly sad. I have no 'hatred' for anyone because they believe. I am not denying religion, I am promoting rational thinking in order to live life better, both as a believer and as a skeptic.....and the quote from Langguth was a simple reply 'on topic' to 2 posts earlier....and nothing in his book is 'against' Jesus, he merely imagines what it would be like to BE Jesus on a daily basis. I sit here amazed and aghast that anyone would compare what I say to Hagee... .................................... :>( |
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18 Aug 10 - 12:31 PM (#2967925) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie Olddude, Bill needs no defense from me but I must say that you have him figured wrong (and maybe that is Bill's fault; perhaps he has not made it clear enough). Bill is in no way full of hate toward Christians or anyone else that I can think of. (I could wish he would see the immigration issue more clearly. :) I think that Bill's issue, regarding beliefs that he doesn't share, is attached to the acceptance by some people of unexamined and unthinking embrace of comforting beliefs. I think he believes that if we did examine many of those beliefs that we would see the irrationality of them. Where his logic falls down, in my opinion, is that he is far too ready to DISbelieve. As my brother once said, "I can't imagine why I used to say that some of those things can't be true. I didn't believe them until they happened to me." But hatred? No. Bill does not hate Christians. I could guarantee that. (He more likely hates the sin but loves the sinner. How is that for a Biblical reference, Bill? *g*) |
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18 Aug 10 - 12:39 PM (#2967932) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Ebbie Sorry, Bill. It took me too long to write that... |
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18 Aug 10 - 01:27 PM (#2967965) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton The gods who walk among men. "I think that Bill's issue, regarding beliefs that he doesn't share, is attached to the acceptance by some people of unexamined and unthinking embrace of comforting beliefs. I think he believes that if we did examine many of those beliefs that we would see the irrationality of them" In a nutshell. Amos.... I take on board what you say, but you are hardly a typical unbeliever, having a kindly nature and open mind, unlike may of the anti religion fanatics on this forum. You must bear in mind that what you see as equality, is seen by others as an attack on their centuries old and firmly held beliefs the "gay marriage" issue being a very good example The traditional definition of marriage as man/woman and designed for the procreation of the species is not up for debate among the vast majority of believers. Personally, I would not like to argue the case against homosexual marriage on only these grounds ....but like you, I am an atheist :0) |
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18 Aug 10 - 01:44 PM (#2967973) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Anyone bothering to post at length on a subject like this one, Bill, values rational thinking tremendously or they wouldn't be participating in the discussion. That includes people of religious or spiritual belief who post here. They also value rational thinking tremendously, and they practice it, just like you do. I think Ebbie has it right. Your intentions are of the best, but your rationality is somewhat hampered by the fact that you are too ready to disbelieve in a great variety of things, and that isn't prompted by true rationality...it's driven by an emotional bias, one which you may not be aware of. You would like things to be a certain way. (Everyone's like that, by the way.) And that gives you some emotional bias which impacts upon your objectivity and capriciously bends it this way or that way. This is quite evident to anyone whose beliefs don't all fall in line with yours, but I very much doubt it's evident to you. Do I have emotional biases that affect my objectivity too? Of course! Everyone does, and I recognize that. I've never met anyone who was free of emotional bias that affected their overall view of life in various ways and bent their "rationality" a bit out of shape from time to time...specially in regards to matters that were, for them, emotional triggers. Religion and spirituality are among the things that emotionally trigger you, Bill. That's why you keep beating that dead horse I was alluding to awhile back. ;-) Like you, I am emotionally triggered by certain things too. To figure out what those things are, you would only need to carefully study the thousands of posts I've made on this forum, and you could soon figure it out...using your rational powers. ;-) |
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18 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM (#2967995) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D Thanks for the vote of confidence, Ebbie...but even that does not encompass what I really think. "Where his logic falls down, in my opinion, is that he is far too ready to DISbelieve. No... I am a **skeptic** which does NOT mean DISbeliever.... it means 'doubter' in the full, formal philosophic meaning of the term, whether about religion or phrenology or astrology...etc. René Descartes tried to explain this to the clerics of his time, but they would have none of it...they equated the very IDEA of doubting with DISbelief, and Descartes was never that....but just using the word got him in trouble. The point...the serious, major, relevant point is: I see & hear others making claims, or simply following blindly certain claims that have been made, and this worries me.....BECAUSE... **IF** any of those claims are not, in fact, true, it casts doubt on many, many other claims/beliefs which are based on the assumptions made IN the claims. I have posted before the logical truism: "From false premises, anything follows!". This is not just some silly slogan...it means that IF one accepts some facts that prove to be incorrect, it is possible to derive realms of other incorrect conclusions from them. This can easily be demonstrated by the history of Astronomy and Geocentric ideas about the Universe. Galileo fought it...and had to recant ...publicly.** IF the earth WERE the center of the Universe, THEN it might well follow that there WAS a 'purpose' behind it, and it was important to the church of the time to guard that idea...so they invented all sorts of theology to support it! The question arises... exactly where in the church theology did the error sneak in? Was it just that they didn't yet have a grasp on proper scientific method? They were wrong about the nature of the universe, but could they have been mistaken about anything else? Enquiring minds have asked that ever since....and I ask it. There ARE ways to maintain a religious life and moral approach and still avoid rubber-stamping some specific claims handed down by 'authority' (Joe Offer does it in his many posts about his Catholicism!...I am not Catholic, but I can't argue with Joe's approach.) Ebbie, you say: "I think he believes that if we did examine many of those beliefs that we would see the irrationality of them." Well...almost. Some might prove to be irrational, in that they are even faulty in the way that they are deduced from their premises, but what we 'might' see is the very status OF the premises themselves and how we often don't even recognize when we ARE making unwarranted assumptions that allow irrational conclusions. *sigh*...some of all that is kinda technical, and I try to note that I am using words like 'doubt' and 'assumptions' in a formal manner...but it is necessary for me to clarify the very important difference between "denying" X,Y, and Z and merely asking those who assert X,Y, and Z to be careful of the implications. And I assure everyone, that when I attended the Walker's Chapel Freewill Baptist Church in McComb, Mississippi, and then the High Episcopal service on the First Sunday of Advent, I was reverent and polite...and impressed by the feelings conveyed, and when I was a member of the First Unitarian Church of Wichita, Kans., I was appreciative of a tone of acceptance of ALL the varied viewpoints about religion. Locally, The Washington Ethical Society embraces what *I* would want in a church-like community. So much to try to convey.... but *shrug*...if I keep commenting on stuff, I gotta try to put what I say in perspective, or *I become just another exponent of some attitude....with inadequate understanding of my own viewpoint. It has taken me 'about' 55 years to sort all this out, and having to explain it in text here on Mudcat has helped ME focus my own thoughts. Now, if I don't mess up this post, I'll have it to refer back to sometime... here goes! **"Galileo's championing of Copernicanism was controversial within his lifetime, when a large majority of philosophers and astronomers still subscribed to the geocentric view that the Earth is at the centre of the universe. After 1610, when he began publicly supporting the heliocentric view, which placed the Sun at the centre of the universe, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. In February 1616, although he had been cleared of any offence, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture",[10] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest." |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:06 PM (#2967998) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D Here we go again: "Your intentions are of the best, but your rationality is somewhat hampered by the fact that you are too ready to disbelieve in a great variety of things, and that isn't prompted by true rationality...it's driven by an emotional bias, one which you may not be aware of. All I can say, LH, is that you are sadly mistaken about my emotions OR my 'bias'. How many years have I explained that specific point in response to you?..... read my reply to Ebbie...again.....and again..... I despair.... |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM (#2968008) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Religious or spiritual belief have nothing to do with "reason", But they are still valid in the minds of the believers They have the right to believe....who are we to dissuade them. I used to think they were "sleepwalking" in a world full of man made horrors, but spirituality may be the only way to redeem the species. In primitive societies the spiritual is more important than the material, these cultures lasted for thousands of years unjtil the advent of "secular man"......now we are spectacularly fucked! |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:19 PM (#2968013) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: gnu Time for me to leave this thread methinks, not to blame anyone, of course. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:24 PM (#2968017) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D "They have the right to believe....who are we to dissuade them. Yep.. absolutely.. "But they are still valid in the minds of the believers nope.. 'valid' is a property of logic. Beliefs are not 'valid', argument forms are...or are not. Yes, it's a nit-picky technical point, but ignoring it leads to bad communication. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM (#2968018) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk You "despair", because you're emotionally triggered, Bill. ;-) As for skepticism or "doubt", that can also be an emotional predisposition, and it is in many people. It's a very common defence mechanism against being tricked, hoodwinked or disappointed "yet again!" In any case, I am just as keenly aware as you are that "from false premises, anything follows". I've always been quite good at ferreting out false premises. The world's full of them, and not just in the field of religion and spirituality, but also in fields such as politics, culture, economics, science, medicine, law, etc...false premises simply abound in modern day culture. You and I are equally driven by our powerful thirst to know the truth about everything, Bill, and I expect we'll be that way till the day we die. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:33 PM (#2968026) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Belief does not involve the use of logic, it is valid in the minds of the believer in that it is personal to him, it is real to him. In all probability he doesn't give a flying fuck whether you or I find his belief logical.....it is of no importance to him....and no business of yours or mine. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:35 PM (#2968028) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D "Belief does not involve the use of logic.." and 'valid' is STILL the wrong word.... |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:42 PM (#2968033) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Seems to me that a belief can follow directly from logic. That is, you observe and experience phenomena, you use logic to interpret those phenomena, and from that you develop a very firm belief based on the conclusions to which your logic led you. Everybody does that. A cop, for example, does it when observing evidence and solving a murder case. He reaches a point where he firmly believes that a certain person committed that murder, and he does so by observing the evidence and using his powers of logic. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:46 PM (#2968036) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D Sure! That is essentially what the scientific method IS. But it includes the injunction to keep be careful and keep testing and be willing to change if you discover you mis-interpreted one of those phenomena. |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:53 PM (#2968041) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton I thought we were discussing religious/spiritual belief? |
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18 Aug 10 - 02:55 PM (#2968044) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Now, the ancient people (many of them) used simple logic when they came up with the idea that the sun rotates around the Earth. They used their powers of observation, and logically concluded that the sun was moving around the Earth each day from east to west, and that was logically sensible...given their lack of further information or scientific instruments of observation. They did the best they were able to, using logic, given their limited powers of observation at the time and their limited technical education. THEN it became a basic assumption and a matter of faith that the sun moved around the Earth. It was an incorrect assumption, but it had been arrived at using observation of natural phenomena and simple logic. It required the development of much more advanced instruments and methods of observation to allow a more sophisticated and well-informed use of logic to supercede what had gone before. We now know that the Earth rotates around the Sun, and we know it again by using observation coupled with logic. And we have reached a new point of belief (commonly accepted knowledge) about it. Most human belief is something that initially develops out of the use of someone's observation and logic. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily correct, but that's how a belief gets started: by observation and deduction. The observation may be inadequate. The deduction may prove faulty. The assumptions may prove incorrect. |
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18 Aug 10 - 03:04 PM (#2968052) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk And I am suggesting that that is EXACTLY how all the religious beliefs once began. Someone observed something. That started up a train of logical thought in their mind, based on whatever they already knew about life, and they created a belief based on that. After that people just repeated it like parrots for a long, long time, until some clever person came up with a radical, new and better idea, in which case most people promptly got VERY upset with him, and possibly executed him in some horrible fashion. ;-) Nowadays he would not get executed. He would probably just get laughed at, parodied, ignored, rejected, criticized vehemently in trade journals, and have his funding cut off! Or if he was really lucky...and the timing was right...he'd be hailed for making a brand new breakthrough in human knowledge. And on that basis, society would adopt a new belief (commonly accepted knowledge) and he'd get the credit for it. |
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18 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM (#2968064) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Current religious/spiritual belief? |
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18 Aug 10 - 03:26 PM (#2968065) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Joe Offer I have to say that I will be greatly relieved when we can no longer blame George Bush, Dick Cheney, Al Gore, Barack Obama, Ahmadinejad, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and Sarah Palin. These are people from my generation. (well, some are from my baby sister's generation). When I was young, I blamed things on my parents' generation, and I was sure that my generation would solve all the ills of the world. Well, it didn't happen, and now it's MY generation that's to blame. I can hardly wait until I can start blaming my children's generation, and I can safely go back to my impractical idealism. -Joe- |
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18 Aug 10 - 03:35 PM (#2968069) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Akenaton - I can't summarize the "Current religious/spiritual belief" (system) for you, because there are several billion individually unique varieties of it out there right now, along with several billion individually unique varieties of medical, political, cultural, ethnic, gender-based, economic, and every other kind of belief. You'd have to deal with it one person (or perhaps one organization) at a time if you wish to take it on. The number of beliefs (or assumptions) about life on other planets, for example, and possible Earthly visitations from some of those lifeforms is just one huge area of debate and inquiry into which one could delve, and easily spend the energies of an entire lifetime investigating. |
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18 Aug 10 - 03:54 PM (#2968075) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Yes I agree Hawk, there are indeed billions of spiritual beliefs out there inside the heads of billions of men and women. Thats what I was trying to say to Bill, those beliefs are personal to each individual. Although not logical in the light of modern science, they serve their purpose to the individual....by "enlightening" them, we run the risk of making them anxious and unhappy and that is surely not our purpose? Of course there is also the minute chance that we (even Bill), may have got it wrong and in the future will learn that spiritually is really a force for good after all :0) |
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18 Aug 10 - 04:11 PM (#2968081) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D dense 'ol Bill can agree that spirituality CAN be a force for good whether or not is is reality-based....just as it can be misused as a force for evil. Can YOU say "inquisition"? "But all the popes and the majority of theologians up until the eighteenth century (including even the great moralist and Doctor of the Church St. Alphonsus Liguori) continued to endorse confession-extracting torture. It was not until 1816 that a bull of Pope Pius VII finally enjoined all Catholic rulers to abolish this practice. I see all sorts of good arising from applications of spirituality to worldly problems... in every disaster there are examples. The question might be asked why more folks don't do good without referring to it. |
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18 Aug 10 - 04:16 PM (#2968085) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Yes, that is a possibility. I think the kind of beliefs that most people object to most vehemently on the basis of logic are those really old beliefs which appear to have been completely invalidated and left behind by the advances of science and present bodies of knowledge. That's certainly something I would object to in religion, but it happens mostly just because people cling tenaciously to anything they are culturally familiar with. It's part of their own "identity", so they defend it. That's where their emotional defense mechanisms come into play. Every nation seems to have a whole set of popular mythology or belief that drives it. religious mythology political mythology economic mythology cultural mythology medical mythology gender-based mythology historical mythology and EVEN scientific mythology It's endless. ;-) I take issue with most of it whenever I feel it has become illusory, delusional or in some way harmful to people. It all tends to be based around the idea that "our way is best" and "we are number one". The aspects of Christianity, for instance, that annoy me the most are the very strong focus on "sin" and guilt, the sexual repression, the male-dominated view of society, and the idea that Jesus died as a ransom for people's sins. Nor can I relate to the idea of "God" punishing anyone. I can't go for any of that stuff. But that's what I see as the "dark side" of Christianity. I very much like what I see on the "light side" of Christianity, and most of that can be found in the ideals that Jesus demonstrated through his own (reputed) conduct which was loving, kind, and merciful. That side of the religion I admire. But, hey! How did we get onto all this stuff, anyway? ;-) I thought we were trying to figure out who to blame for everything after the present lot of political leaders are gone. |
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18 Aug 10 - 04:28 PM (#2968097) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Bill, a great many present-day political leaders endorse confession-extracting torture in time of war, and it is a tactic used by the USA in their "War on Terror". Apparently the USA administration has fallen behind the Catholic Church in this regard if I am to believe what you posted about that Papal ruling in 1816. ;-) And they did it in the name of power politics, not religion! They claim to be protecting our "freedom". |
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18 Aug 10 - 05:06 PM (#2968122) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Validity is not just the product of logic, Bill. THere is such a thing as experiential validfity, personal perspectives borne out by experience. Valid means having merit compared to some sort of test, but the kind of Boolean logic you espouse is not the proper test for the validity of personal considerations. A person may believe that theuniverse works in such a way that maintaining a personal standard of ethics pays off over time. To a rigorous logician, that argument is netiher valid nor invalid, I guess. To a physicist it would seem irreverent. Oh, sorry, I meant irrelevant. But to the person living the life, it may asctually be working. WORKING truths are not scientific, they don't have to be. They simply have to work. THe placebo effect is completely illogical, too. It must be mythical, I suppose.... A |
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18 Aug 10 - 05:24 PM (#2968132) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Joe Offer BillD says: I see all sorts of good arising from applications of spirituality to worldly problems...in every disaster there are examples. The question might be asked why more folks don't do good without referring to it. I think you have something there, Bill. Maybe it's the very impracticality of religious belief that allows people to take risks for the "higher good." I find that for the most part, my religious faith involves reaching into a fog - but it's a good fog; and in the process, I get glimpses of something wonderful. So, my religious faith involves seeking uncertainty, of exploring the questions of life and expecting insights without absolute answers. That's quite different from a lot of religious people, who seem to be seeking absolute certainty, and claim to have all the answers to all the questions. The two perspectives are so diametrically opposed that it seems strange to give both the same name, "religion" - but such is life. On the other hand, Bill, I think I know you pretty well. I think you seek the same thing I seek, but in different terms. I'm theistic in my perspective, and you're non-theistic. But your ideals are every bit as high as mine, and I would expect that you and I would respond with similar impracticality and generosity in the face of disaster or serious need. But today, I was seeking the perfect combination of beer and bratwurst, and I think I found it. There are times when one CAN achieve absolute perfection. -Joe- |
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18 Aug 10 - 05:42 PM (#2968137) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Joe_F "What's wrong with the world? I am!" -- G. K. Chesterton |
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18 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM (#2968145) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton Can spirituality be misused for evil? Was human sacrifice to the fertility gods evil or simply ignorance? Do we really know if spirituality can have an effect on material issues? Did the primitives know things that we do not? Were they more spiritually aware then we? They scientists say that humans will gradually lose the ability to walk because of our overuse of vehicular transport. Is it possible that we already lost much of our spiritual personna, through logic, reason, education, Mudcat? |
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18 Aug 10 - 06:20 PM (#2968171) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Joe Offer Ake, ake, ake.... Blame Mudcat? Say it isn't so!!! -Joe- |
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18 Aug 10 - 06:29 PM (#2968186) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: akenaton An interesting thing happened to me about two months ago, I was working for an old farmer my area. He had come to Scotland nearly twenty years ago from Ireland,and was a bit of a recluse, but an historian on matters Irish....He reckoned he was related to Roger De Mortimer who ruled most of Ireland many centuries ago. Anyway, we enjoyed our conversation over a mug of tea and as I was rising to go,he asked me if I had any health problems. As I'm pretty strong and fit, I said not really but I had a quite severe irritation in my right ear which had bothered me constantly for about eighteen months, he held his hand over my ear for about a minute and said what sounded like a prayer in Irish Gaelic. Off you go now, he said, "and god go with you" I thought the old man was losing the plot so I made a joke and promptly forgot all about the episode. The following morning while making the porage,I realised that the irritation and pain in my ear had completely gone and has never come back since. I find that very strange...maybe just coincidence? I spoke again to the old man about a week ago and told him that my ear was cured...he was not in the least surprised, and told me he got his power from his belief in a Christian god, he tod me that he can feel the power like electricity in his hands....he also sees "things" in his house and believes there are spirits dwelling there. I work in lots of empty houses, doing repairs for absentee owners and I sometimes feel something maligne about a house. There are two houses in this area which I refuse to work in for that reason. I'm still an atheist as I think the feelings are a natural power which we don't yet understand...like telepathy.(Which I have also experienced) But I still wonder about my ear! :0( |
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18 Aug 10 - 06:45 PM (#2968206) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D Yes, 'valid' has become accepted in common parlance as meaning just 'useful' and even in science, as you note. It is a bit like 'folk', in that it is just too short and handy not to be co-opted. In the context I objected to it up ^ there, I think it WAS used ...ummm... 'invalidly'. It is such a temptation to toss the word around to mean 'anything I think is right or good'. When you say "Valid means having merit compared to some sort of test,", it leaves the field wide open to ambiguity and equivocation as to WHAT test and who applies it to determine 'validity'. We really need some very precise terms to use in certain discussions to avoid the "no it isn't-yes it is" debates. *I* need a way to express "Hey.. even IF what you believe were to be 'true', your argument form is flawed." Singing horses may soon be 'valid' if this continues.... ;>) |
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18 Aug 10 - 06:52 PM (#2968215) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos The term you want is logically rigorous, Bill. It means cleaving tightly to standard of allowable thought and sequences of reasoning. Of course, wild thought doesn't give a hoot for bars and pathways and allowances, and wanders whither it listeth. Often into very unreasonable and unreal destinations. In the middle ground there is thought that is valid because it matches up to a criterion of truth that may be a personal criterion (workability or sufficient beauty or consistent with X moral code or Y metaphysics) for an individual, and some of that may get agreed upon and be deemed valid by a group--homilies are an example. Homilies aren't rigorous but they are widely deemed valid. A stitch in time saves nine, and you shouldn't change horses in the middle of a stream. I am SURE you agree... :D A |
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18 Aug 10 - 07:03 PM (#2968223) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Donuel If all goes well I will be happy to never play the blame game again However if on March 8th 2012 you find yourself treading water during a worldwide inundation, blaming others will be shared by all. In the last consious moments, blaming others will not be your penaltimate thought. The mention of a spiritual diety or a profane piece of excrement is most likely. SOmetimes its both, as in holy shit! If on the otherhand you find yourself near a mountaintop with enough food and water supplies stored in a cavern to last several years while suffering the mixed feeling of celebration and grief, you might think you were a pretty smart person. Until you see that Acme.com food supplies sent you food beyond its expiration date. |
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18 Aug 10 - 07:49 PM (#2968242) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D Homilies & slogans and 'folk wisdom' are widely 'accepted'. When they are "deemed 'valid' by a group", creeping subjectivity waters down the whole concept of **factually & logically valid & objectively true** that we all hope to find. I can't fight endemic semantic slipperiness all by myself...but I CAN make the point to those I debate with here...whether they all 'get' it or not. |
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18 Aug 10 - 07:51 PM (#2968244) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Ake! Very cool story about the ear problem and the apparent "cure". I've seen stuff like that too, have experienced it, and have even done it once for another person. In this case the person was someone I was utterly in love with, and I was desperate to heal her foot following an injury she suffered in a sudden accident. What I did was to "send" her all the energy I could (I can't explain it any better than that, but I was, I think, probably doing something similar to what that old man did. I took deep breaths, gathered all the "energy" I could, and sent it from my hands through the air to her injured foot for about a minute or two.) Anyway, it worked dramatically, and what should have been a nasty injury to her foot turned out in 24 hours to be nothing more than a slight bruise. She was tremendously grateful and has never forgotten it. I still don't know how I did it. But I do know that every fibre of being I had was totally committed to the process at the time, and I think that's why it worked. I don't ascribe what happened to the intervention of a "God". Like you, I ascribe it to some natural power that we all have, potentially, but most of us don't know we have it, and even if we did know, our attention is usually too scattered and too self-absorbed to make effective use of it. We are like 12 cylinder engines that are habitually only using 1 or 2 cylinders! (except in moments of sudden danger or great stress) If I had not been in love with her, I wouldn't have thought to even try it. I just acted instinctively, and with total concentration. You could call it a "miracle", and she may have thought of it that way. I thought of it as a rare natural event, achieved through undivided concentration and force of will. |
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18 Aug 10 - 07:54 PM (#2968250) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Well, slipperiness within limits cannot be avoided, Bill. ABsolutes don't occur in the real world. Gradual degrees is the nature of the beast. A |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM (#2968255) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk "Can spirituality be misused for evil?" Definitely. And so can anything else. "Was human sacrifice to the fertility gods evil or simply ignorance?" Perhaps ignorance itself is the primary thing that leads to evil. "Do we really know if spirituality can have an effect on material issues?" No, we don't, but it's an interesting possibility... "Did the primitives know things that we do not?" Sure. But they also didn't know various things that we do. "Were they more spiritually aware then we?" They may well have been, in some cases. "The scientists say that humans will gradually lose the ability to walk because of our overuse of vehicular transport. Is it possible that we already lost much of our spiritual personna, through logic, reason, education, Mudcat?" Yes, I think probably so. Everything turns out to be a compromise. ;-) You gain one thing, lose another. |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:06 PM (#2968256) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Donuel - Why March 8th, specifically? |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:30 PM (#2968269) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D "I still don't know how I did it" I can guess... SHE also had confidence, and bio-feedback IS a demonstrated scientific procedure. It was first noticed when people were able to avoid burns...or develop blisters... under hypnosis. The ...ummm... 'mind' is pretty effective when trained to work with the body. People can slow respiration, reduce blood pressure,... all sorts of thing...even to controlling computers with implanted electrodes. LH...I have no doubt what you did helped by focusing 'something'... I make NO assertions about exactly HOW it worked. |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:47 PM (#2968287) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Uncle_DaveO Little Hawk said, in part: I took deep breaths, gathered all the "energy" I could, and sent it from my hands through the air to her injured foot for about a minute or two.) Anyway, it worked dramatically, and *** injury to her foot turned out in 24 hours to be nothing more than a slight bruise. ***. I still don't know how I did it. The truth is, you don't know that you did do it, L.H. The operative word is "know" here. You may feel that her condition was severe before you were faced with it, but you don't know that. If it was indeed a severe injury before, you don't know that it was your efforts that effected a change in it. You may have a suspicion that it was very bad, and that your efforts had some effect on it for the good, but you don't know and can't know that. Let alone "how". Dave Oesterreich |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:49 PM (#2968291) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Me either, Bill. I don't think she was really aware I was doing anything at the time, except maybe just about the point where I was finished. She had a boyfriend at that time (a good friend of mine and a hell of a nice person) and he was sort of attending on her, talking about what had happened, and she was mainly concentrating on her hurt foot. I was sitting about 8 or 10 feet away, quietly focusing on her, but unobtrusively, if you understand. I don't think he noticed at all what I was doing, but she did, I guess just toward the end. Anyway, a couple of days later I went to a meeting, she was there, and she rushed over, gave me a big hug and thanked me. One of the best moments I can recall. ;-) I was stone cold crazy about that girl, but we were never a couple. We remain friends to this day. Maybe it's true, Bill, that "love conquers all". ;-) I sure hope so. |
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18 Aug 10 - 08:59 PM (#2968294) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk You're quite correct, Dave. I don't know. ;-) Nor does anyone else. We just have our opinions. In this case, I think the only two opinions that hold much relevance to the matter are mine and hers. That doesn't prove that we know either...no proof is available on this matter or ever will be. A lot of stuff in life is like that. You can't prove it, you can't disprove it, you can only experience it and remember the experience. I find that other people's reactions to a story of one's own experience are generally predetermined by whatever they already want to believe in or don't want to believe in. Most people have their minds all made up about things. Just ask them. ;-) |
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18 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM (#2968331) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Stringsinger It's not about people, LH. It's about systems that are dysfunctional. As long as politics as usual remain without change in US or Canada, it doesn't really matter who is around to blame. Bush, Harper, Obama.................... 1. Our US Senate and Congress are broken. Lobbyists, greed, ideologies and Wall Street have contributed to their demise. 2. When the rich are getting richer at the expense of the poor, the system is broken. 3. Warring occupations are robbing the taxpayer and the people. The people you mention are really irrelevant until the underlying causes for their behavior are repaired. |
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18 Aug 10 - 10:49 PM (#2968336) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Donuel "but I CAN make the point to those I debate with here...whether they all 'get' it or not." B Ah if only there was an interpersonal interface which transmitted all the intended meaning you have without distortion. But that would require the person you were tranmitting to was also you, with all your past experiences and all the associations unique only to you. Imagine if we could know by seeing. I mean knowing with complete understanding, like being given a photo of an alien planet and understand its history, composition and the meaning of all the living processes within and upon the planet. To see a galaxy and understand the life changes of a former quasar at its nucleus. To see a person and know their heart as you may know your own. Complete knowing by seeing would be like falling into an ultimate love. So the answer is no Bill. You can expect any of your cogent remarks or arguments to be "gotten". At least not completely. Understanding is far more rare than we dare admit. 10% would be amazingly high. Hell, I couldn't even get you to look up and see an atmospheric phenomenon and contrast it to a time 16 years ago when it had never existed before. LH March 8th has no conscious connection to the transient eclipse of Venus or any other solar eclipse or cosmic alignment. If it did I would be ridiculously lucky. |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:12 AM (#2968612) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos What a piece of work is Mudcat!! From spiritual healing to jaded materialism to dysfunctional Congresses in four posts! A |
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19 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM (#2968684) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Little Hawk Stringsinger, you are absolutely correct. It is the broken system itself that is the problem, not the individuals who pass through it. Donuel - Yeah, I've often wished that people could have that kind of clear communication you allude to. It would clear up a lot of problems. |
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19 Aug 10 - 01:13 PM (#2968718) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: olddude My apologies Bill for misreading your post. You just too good a person to get caught up in some things that looked hate based and I wasn't beating on you ... I was expressing concern. It is easy to get caught up into thinking that can become obsessive. You are right to express a view for freedom of thought. I say that all the time. People of faith should take the time and question everything about it .. everything .. for me the math brings me back to my faith even stronger. I fear no free expression or thought, I welcome it as all people of faith should. My life is all math. Query my name in Google with Computer Science. I write like a 5th grader and always have but you will see me in everything from MIT to Stanford and pretty much every scientific journal around. For me, the math comes back to my faith each time. For others it does not and that is ok. Freedom of choice is a beautiful thing. |
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19 Aug 10 - 01:56 PM (#2968751) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Amos Bill: There is a much wider array of phenomenology connected with live thought and communication than can be readily understood by present scientific insight, and there is nothing illogical about seeking new and better models to incpororate more of the phenomena. If you exclude thought itself as a phenomenon, of course, then you'rekind of stuck in a universe ofdiscourse defined only by mechanisms of various scales. The problem with that is that it glues you to the realm of discourse of the structural, when the richest and most interesting realm of discourse (if you're not interested in engineering) is functional. If LH healed an ankle with his attention, as he reports, that's not explicable, in terms of structure, but it is apparently functionally possible. If his were an isolated incident, of course, it would be easy to dismiss it, but there is a much larger body of reportage around various kinds of healing, and other such pehnomena, than his. THrowing ALL that baby out with the bathwater is not rigorous or intelligent, IMHO, no matter HOW much bathwater is involved. Sigh...oh, never mind... A |
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19 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM (#2968767) Subject: RE: BS: Who will we blame for everything when... From: Bill D " If you exclude thought itself as a phenomenon, of course, ..." ...but I do NOT do that. We merely differ on how many assumptions we make about the nature of thought. I, obviously, make fewer. ...and I thought I was clear that I DID agree that LH aided the woman in focusing whateveritwas in promoting healing. Biofeedback is documented and on the way to being understood... Am I once again being chastised/teased/shamed...whatever... for NOT buying into some notion that some ineffable 'thought process' leapt from his 'mind' into her ankle? It is never quite clear what you think I am refusing to consider. Perhaps there IS no 'clear' description of it...and perhaps I just hate to consider it until one is found... ;>)) (I'd love a dollar for every time you have, in various interesting prosody, suggested that I am incapable of recognizing perfectly good 'babies' as I drain the bath. Them little changing swirls of suds that look vaguely like the Pillsbury Doughboy are kinda hard to identify as babies that need saving....and I have no idea how I'd store them....) "....oh, never mind..." Oh, I never do... |