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19 Aug 10 - 04:31 PM (#2968855) Subject: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I feel impelled to say that I admire Obama for his exemplary analysis of the right-wing backlash about the proposed Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:47 PM (#2968871) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Obama is doing what all canny politicians do...isn't he Playing to his base, he could hardly say anything else without committing political suicide. I wonder what his secretary of State's real views are on the matter! Personally I think it is the supreme act of insensitivity on the part of the leaders of Islam in America. It's either insensitivity or a wind-up. In either case permission should have been refused, the authorities are meant to represent the wishes of the people who pay their wages. |
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19 Aug 10 - 04:49 PM (#2968875) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Amos Actually, Ake, he could have stayed out of it without committingpolitical suicide, and he copped a good dealof heat for standing up for the principle of equal tolerance. It is neither an insensitive gesturte or a windup--it was a plan for a community that was underway long before 9-11 and really has nothing to do with terrorism, as far as I know, despie all the knee-jerk reactionary emo's who immediately dive into the belief that "all evil is everywhere and its all the same...". A |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:11 PM (#2968883) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow It's a bit as if people were objecting to a Catholic Church being built in Oklahoma Citry because Timothy McVeigh was some kind of Catholic - and were being treated as somehow rational, rather than as crazy. There are plenty of nuts in all countries. But the inmpression comes across that the difference with the USA is that the nuts are seen as mainstream rather than fringe. That is frightening. At least 60 of the victims killed by the terrorists on 9/11 actually were Muslims. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM (#2968895) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Paul Burke He fudged the reasons. He should have said something on the lines of, of course Muslims should have a mosque there, real Muslims aren't anything like the twin towers murderers. |
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19 Aug 10 - 05:29 PM (#2968898) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Now that opportunist, Giuliani, has come out against the Muslim center. Senate majority Reid has broken with Obama, and opposes the cultural center. The Democrats seem well on the way to losing control of Congress because of their luke-warm support of their president. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM (#2968912) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks So far, unless it has happened in the last hour or so and I missed it, Obama has made no comment at all about whether or not that facility should be built where and as proposed. What he has said it that this is a free country and they have a right to do so if they wish. Actually, it was something over 300 Muslims in the Towers, and at least a couple as passengers on the planes. I really don't think anyone here sees the nuts as mainstream (except their fellow nuts), but the far right controls most of the more strident media outlets. |
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19 Aug 10 - 06:51 PM (#2968939) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing LISTEN to the man. And, also: From Huffington Post: Your request is being processed... Matt Sledge Just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero? The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House. From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you. If you look up the walking directions you'll notice that it takes a couple of minutes to walk the distance (approximately a tenth of a mile) between the two spots. Pretty much two minutes exactly when I took the trip with a shaky video camera. Here's the clip, first sped up to 4X speed then slowed down to 1X: When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero. Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero. Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance: There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know. I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy. In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place." The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque." There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ kat |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:02 PM (#2968950) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow "Now that opportunist, Giuliani, has come out against the Muslim center. Senate majority Reid has broken with Obama, and opposes the cultural center." People like that sound pretty mainstream. Even assuming that they are insincere about it, rather than true believers, it still rather seems to indicate that the nuts are seen by significant politicians as being the dominant force in American elections. |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM (#2968957) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer Google Maps will take you to the site of the proposed Cordoba House. You'll notice there are several churches in the area, so why not a Muslim center? As the article above says, the site is on a side street, a couple of blocks from the World Trade Center site. It's a stretch of the imagination to relate the site to the World Trade Center at all, so it appears to me that somebody is manufacturing an issue out of this to make political hay. And now that they've made such a fuss about it, this is probably no longer a good place for a Muslim center, because people are bound to make a target of it. This is an injustice to a Muslim community that has done admirable work toward peace, reconciliation, and understanding. This who have made such a big problem by opposing this center should be ashamed of themselves. The fuss they've made is very close to inciting violence. -Joe- |
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19 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM (#2968960) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Keith A of Hertford There are some questions. Why is this site so important? I believe that other less sensitive but nearby sites have been offered and rejected. Is there a good reason? Why is it to be called Cordoba? Is it a coincidence that a mosque was built on the site of a cathedral in Cordoba when Muslims defeated the Christians there? And, is it funded by Saudis? |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:00 PM (#2968988) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Paul Burke It's called Cordoba because Cordoba's in Spain, which used to be Catholic, and the IRA are Catholic, when they aren't being vice-versa. The conspiracies get everywhere. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:13 PM (#2968992) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks The site is important, I understand, because the developers want it to be close to where the people who will use it live and work. There is already an actual mosque (which this is not) within 5 blocks of the World Trade Center (which is a very large piece of property). I haven't heard that any other site has been offered so far. There have been discussions of some sort of a swap, perhaps for state-owned property, but no specific location has yet been identified. Whether the community will be compensated for any difference in value hasn't, as far as I know, been mentioned by anyone. The cathedral in Cordoba was "built" basically by ripping out the middle of the Great Mosque of Cordoba after the Christians defeated the Muslims there in 1236. The mosque, in its turn, was constructed on the site of a Christian church when the Umayyads conquered the Visigoths, who were mostly pagan. Wiki says the Muslims bought the property...I have no interest in researching this. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:19 PM (#2968995) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,David E. "This is an injustice to a Muslim community that has done admirable work toward peace, reconciliation, and understanding." This is hopefully a reference to the local peaceful New York City Muslim community and not the other one who do suicide bombings and behead people? David E. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:25 PM (#2968997) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox This analysis was released on MSNBC ages ago. Analysis. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:26 PM (#2968998) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer I don't know that the site was so important to the Muslims until the detractors decided to make an issue of it. It is, however, one of the better sites for a religious building in Lower Manhattan - and there are lots and lots of other churches in the area to prove the point. If you go a few blocks north, you get into an out-of-the way district where nobody goes, and there's not enough sidewalk traffic to make people feel safe. To the south and east and west are skyscrapers full of offices and condominiums, not really conducive to a religious center. The buildings on Park Place are of moderate size (and probably moderate expense). I think the choice would be to stay out of lower Manhattan altogether - maybe that's what the opponents want. In short, the building in question is an insignificant building on an out-of-the way side street. It isn't an "important" site at all, which is why I wonder why people are making such a fuss about it. -Joe- |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:31 PM (#2969000) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Ignorance and bigotry are alive and well, not only in the U. S., but in Europe, Asia, wherever dissimilar peoples and religions rub against each other. A poll taken across the United States shows a majority against building the cultural center at the site, long owned by Muslims. A CNN program this evening gave an hour's time to an interview with a fundamentalist Christian 'leader' who hates the Muslim religion (it does not recognize that Jesus Christ died for our sins, etc.). The media seem intent on increasing discord. Belgium is badly split on language-religion; it may not be long before the country separates. The Netherlands has its problems; the area around Maastricht has nothing in common with say, Rotterdam, and bigoted comment about one or the other is common. The Roma are being thrown out of France, and they are not wanted in the Romanian-Bulgarian area from which they migrated. Talk of a Catalan nation is largely talk, but there are many in intellectual circles desirous of and working toward 'home rule'. The U. S. will build two $100 million centers (forts?) whose purpose is to keep Kurds and Iraqis from conflict with each other. Turkey and adjacent nations also are trying to keep a damper on Kurds. China and its peoples in the Northwest clash, the central government keeps them tightly in check. The Caucasus, Kashmir, the border provinces between Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc., etc. all are in turmoil. The United Nations takes one step forward and one step back. It is the nature of the human race. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:35 PM (#2969003) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Jeri On Wikipedia. I believe the controversy was propagated, if not wholly invented, by bigoted busybodies who blame all Muslims for the acts of a small number of extremist terrorists, and think government ought to control where places of worship are built. My guess is a lot of them bitch about 'big government', but I don't know. I think it's New York State's business. I think a lot of people who have stuck their noses in this come from places a lot less cosmopolitan than NYC, and expect New Yorkers to be as xenophobic and Muslim-hatin' as they are. I think a Muslim cultural center and mosque might, in the LONG run, turn out to be a good, healing thing. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:45 PM (#2969007) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief It was proposed there because the two mosques that are already in the neighbourhood are full to overflowing for Friday prayers, and the worship space in the non-ground-zero non-mosque will help carry the load. (If this is a mosque, then the YMCA up the street that allows Jews to worship in its space is a synagogue. That way madness lies.) Making an issue about this requires not being able to distinguish between terrorist Muslims and non-terrorist Muslims. It would be like not allowing a church to be built near an abortion clinic where somebody shot the doctor in the name of Christianity, or the site of a murder of a gay person whom somebody murdered in the name of Christianity. It's just prejudice, plain and simple. This is America. We're supposed to have religious freedom here. Denying somebody the right to build an Islamic Cultural Center (or whatever the right term is here -- "mosque" is the wrong term) wherever they want (within building codes) is part of our freedoms. Taking away freedoms is making us more like the terrorists, not less. It's inane to sink to their level, it's also unamerican and Antichrist-ian. Interestingly, after the whining of the intolerant right about the name "Cordoba House" it was changed to "Park 51." Yeah, those Muslims are so insensitive to the culture around them. More on that later. "Ground Zero" is not some kind of holy, take-off-your-shoes ground. And it doesn't sanctify the blocks around it into some kind of hallowed ground, either. Within the same distance from "Ground Zero" there are gay bars, strip clubs, fast food restaurants, boarded-up storefronts, hustlers selling probably-stolen goods on folding tables, and so on. It's a living, working Manhattan neighbourhood. There are churches in the area (further out from the 2 blocks, as I understand it), as well as two mosques. How much longer must minorities in this country bow to the "sensitivities" of the majority? They just don't know their place, do they? Those uppity Muslims. When the white Christian majority says "this offends our sensitivity" they should go running with their tail between their legs. And if they don't that PROVES they're not moderates, doesn't it? Because only terrorists stand up for their rights in the United States. Everybody else who is faced with inexorable prejudice and hate backs down. Sort of like the Democratic congress. Cowards. And the president is really in a bind, isn't he? Half the country already thinks he's a Muslim. If he says anything good about Park 51, this confirms it in their eyes. And if he says anything bad, this plays into their hands. He can't win for losing. No wonder he's not coming across as bold and decisive. Although if he were taking advice from me, I'd say stand up for what's right, and fuck the haters. They're going to hate you anyway and NOTHING you do is going to bring them around. So just do what's right and let History judge. And "sensitivities"? "Bad taste"? Yeah, if you can't get 'em to back down legally, try the guilt-and-shame routine. Dis-fucking-gusting. What's next, violence? A "second amendment" solution? I'm reminded of the Freedom Riders, who had a right to eat at the lunch counter at the Greyhound bus station, but offended the "sensitivities" of the white racists by so doing. Shall we get truncheons and beat up Muslims who walk past the Burlington Coat Factory? It's the same fucking mindset, except now instead of n*****s, it's Muslims. Dirty uppity Muslims. Don't know their place. I thought we got over that kind of shit in 1964, or at least started moving in the direction of getting over it. The horrible knee-jerk anti-Muslim reaction to this nontroversy is a huge step backwards for this country. It's like the KKK only with G's. The GOP Glux Glenn. This country is becoming more and more like a prison every day. Sermon ends. For those with the ability to laugh. |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:49 PM (#2969011) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox What people forget is that there were innocent Moslems who died in the world trade centre. I think the 99.999999999999% of Moslems who aren't terrorists have an equal right to mourn this tragedy and have somewhere to go to pray for the dead. If Ground Zero is a cemetery then it is a multi faith cemetery including Islam. Having a different law for Moslems means Discrimination on grounds of religion. I note that "impartial" and "objective" keith is very quick to back up the case against the Moslems. There is another interesting perspective of course ... ... It seems that the Simon Weisenthal foundations Director Marvin Hier has been very vocal on this issue on Fox TV expressing "his opposition to the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero in Manhattan, because the site of the 9/11 attack "is a cemetery."", ... yet simultaneously, the same foundation is behind the desecration of "some 1,500 Muslim graves [which] have been cleared in several nighttime operations to make way for…..a $100 million Museum of Tolerance and Human Dignity" Ironic |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:54 PM (#2969017) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "is it funded by saudis" Is there anything in America that isn't funded by Saudis in some way? I mean ... let me see if I can think of a prominent figure in America that might be connected with the saudis ... ... I remember ... the whole Bush family! |
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19 Aug 10 - 08:54 PM (#2969018) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert The Taliban is winnin' right here in the good ol' US of A... Last week it was the 14th Ammendment... This week it's the 1st Ammendment... What next will the right wing Taibaners want??? A return to slavery??? No, better than that... ****Their*** 2nd Ammendment right to fuck up anyone who they don't like... Yeah, that would make these school yard bullies real happy... Screw Redneck Nation... Send it over to Afganistan to live with their Taliban brothers... B~ |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:05 PM (#2969023) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer On the other hand, because of the stink that has been made, I think the location is no longer a safe place for an Islamic center. The "right thing to do" is to stand up for religious freedom and keep the site, no matter how much security it requires. But if those who build it, want it to further the cause of peace and reconciliation, what then? I dunno. To me, it seems like a perfect site for an Islamic center. It's close to the most significant business district in the United States, and it's also close to many, many apartment and condominium homes. -Joe- |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:10 PM (#2969027) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Ref This whole controversy was ginned up by right wingers looking for red meat with which to stir up their troops. |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:16 PM (#2969030) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert I, for one, am getting tired of the 20% of the population being able to bully the other 80%... Screw 'um... They are nuthin' but school-yard bullies who, as we saw in the 60s, will stop at nothin' to get their way... It's time to stand up to Redneck Nation!!! B~ |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:22 PM (#2969037) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief It doesn't matter what people not building it want -- white people didn't want blacks in their schools in 1964, either. The civil rights of a minority aren't dependent upon what the majority wants them to do. And "they" did not murder any Americans -- the people building this mosque are Sufis, not Wahabbis. The 9/11 attacks were not done by all muslims. They were done by a select group of a particular sect of Islam. Other Muslims are not responsible for their crimes. Just as I am not responsible for the crimes of other Americans, or other whites, or other Christians. Only if you lump all Muslims together, and consider them all evil, can you say "they" murdered Americans, or "they" burn our flag. And that's wrong. "They" are not an undifferentiated mass. You can't punish all blacks for the crime of some blacks. You can't punish all Irish for the crimes of some Irish. And you can't hold all Muslims responsible for the crimes of some Muslims. It's irrational, and it's wrong. |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:23 PM (#2969038) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Cordova. Toledo. Two great centers of learning under the Muslins and Jews. In Spain under Muslim rule, the synagogue was close, or in the case of Toledo, part of the same great building as the mosque. The Weisenthal foundation director doesn't seem to know history. Both the Muslims and the Jews were kicked out of Spain at one and the same time. Both have faced persecution by Europeans. The name Cordoba is apt for the cultural center. |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM (#2969054) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Quote I saw today: "We've been making ground zeroes near Iraqi mosques since 2003." |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM (#2969057) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "But if those who build it, want it to further the cause of peace and reconciliation, what then?" What if they don't? If they give in? What precedent will it set? If Moslems are to avoid being driven out of every community that feels enfranchised by this dispute, then they must not budge. Encouraging and affirming ignorance and xenophobia will not lead to peace and reconciliation, but will lead to more self assured lynch mobs. Peace and reconciliation happen when mutual tolerance and maybe respect are practised. An interesting point in the Olbermann video I posted above concerns the fact that Moslems in America are at more risk of violence from non-Moslems than Non-Moslems are from Moslems. |
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19 Aug 10 - 09:51 PM (#2969063) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: John on the Sunset Coast Honestly, I am surprised that it took this long for the mosque topic to hit the Mudcat. Interestingly I was at a current events discussion group on Tuesday night; this topic took up more than half the discussion time. There were 16 or 17 folks there, and at times is got pretty heated although the group is quite homogeneous, center conservative. One was somewhat to the left, and two lean hard right. The consensus we reached was that: 1. Rauf has a legal right to build the Mosque/Center at the site he's chosen. It is not, a piece of airplane debris not-with-standing, on Ground Zero. It would be a mistake to try to use force of law to shut down the project. 2. It is desirable to try to use moral suasion, an appeal to being sensitive to the feeling of the victims' families, and at least consider moving the project to a less emotional area. At that time we had heard that NY Gov., Paterson, would try to negotiate a compromise, but now that seems to have fallen through. 3. We would not be happy for that project to go forward so near the WTC site, but would not be happy to see boycotts and strife over the project. Some interesting things were mentioned, some of which I have no way of knowing are true: 1. There are already in (on) Manhattan 17 mosques. True or not I found that to be irrelevent. 2. Those who felt the proposed location was too 'in-your-face' noted that during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites, notably the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the Hagia Sofia cathedral in Constantinople (now Istanbul). I can see where this can be extrapolated by some into thinking that is what may be going on here (although this is not a religious site). 3. The proposed name of the complex hearkens back to the halcyon days of Islam and the Caliphate in Spain. In that sense, Muslims are said to be very wary of the use of the word 'crusade' in even its most benign context. 4. Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters. While i can think of one instance wheere this is true, I don't know if it can be generalized. |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM (#2969076) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "It is desirable to try to use moral suasion, an appeal to being sensitive to the feeling of the victims' families" This depends on which victims families feelings we are being asked to consider. If you mean the families of Moslems whose relatives died, then it insensitive to refuse them a community centre on the basis that Moslems are to blame. If by some freak of neglect you don't mean them, then it depends on which feelings we are supposed to be sensitive to.. The last time I checked, Racism and Grief were not the same emotion. On the other hand, Racism and ignorance are very closely related - so an Islamic cultural centre would be of great use in dispelling racist myths. "Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters." What Islamists? "during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites, notably the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the Hagia Sofia cathedral in Constantinople" So to John, the above is relevant, while the following is irrelevant ... "There are already in (on) Manhattan 17 mosques." It seems that some people are able to deduce from ancient history in the middle east that Moslems are motivated to conquer and build on holy sites and that therefore they are motivated today to do the same on a ... er ... non holy site ... But they are unable to deduce that with 17 mosques on Manhattan, Moslems are clearly and observably able to live and coexist peacefully with mew yorkers in a fully harmonious and non conquest oriented way. John - you seem happy to disseminate false generalizations about Moslems and to have confused Moslems with Islamists ... |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:31 PM (#2969086) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Be careful to define what you mean by Islamist. Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary- 1. The faith, doctrine or cause of Islam. [There are many varieties.] 2. A popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam. [This includes Sharia law]. Lox, I presume you mean the latter by Islamist. As you imply, Muslims are of all stripes and colors, not all would be happy with sharia law. |
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19 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM (#2969094) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert All comes down to the Constitution, folks... Hey, if this Supreme Court wants to rule that a mosque can't be built ***here 'er there*** because of ***this 'er that*** but you can stick a Christain church just any where it plaeses you then what we have is a declared civil war with Muslims who have been here for a long, long time... hey, I know some of these people and they ain't like 2nd class... Might of fact, they make Redneck Nation look like... ....ahhhhh??? ...oh, yeah.... ...Redneck Nation... B~ |
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19 Aug 10 - 11:12 PM (#2969097) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer Lox was quoting John on the Sunset Coast, who used the term "Islamist." There is no indication that "Islamists" are involved in the proposed center. I suppose it's true, as John says, that "during the Muslim conquests, the victors often placed mosques directly on previous religious sites." Of course, Christians have had a long tradition of doing the very same thing, changing pagan temples into churches. The Pantheon in Rome is a good example, as is the Chimayo shrine in New Mexico. -Joe- |
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20 Aug 10 - 12:41 AM (#2969123) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief 3. The proposed name of the complex hearkens back to the halcyon days of Islam and the Caliphate in Spain. In that sense, Muslims are said to be very wary of the use of the word 'crusade' in even its most benign context. 4. Islamists are not prone to compromise much on religious or political matters. While i can think of one instance wheere this is true, I don't know if it can be generalized. What a hilarious juxtaposition! They have changed the name from "Cordoba House" to "Park 51" -- a compromise (pace your point 4) out of sensitivity to your point 3. Oh, the irony! We also tried to use moral suasion to prevent blacks from integrating the schools in 1964. And it was just as moral as this moral suasion. Which is to say, not at all. Guilt and shame and fear are not moral suasion. And there is no moral reason not to build an Islamic Cultural Center (including prayer area) out of an old Burlington Coat Factory building in a very proletariat and not at all holy neighbourhood that happens to be 2 blocks from where the WTC once stood. |
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20 Aug 10 - 12:48 AM (#2969127) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: LadyJean Ground Zero is, presently, a very deep hole in the ground. Nothing is being built there. No monuments, no buildings, no nothing. That, to me, is a whole lot more offensive that some piddly woo Islamic Center. |
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20 Aug 10 - 01:24 AM (#2969135) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief With all this talk about Faud showing good will and promoting the cause of Islam by backing down, let's all take this little quiz. Let's see if we all get the same answer. Suppose Faud tucks his tail between his legs and moves the center to another location further from the holy shrine. What will the reaction be of the people who are now screaming about how insensitive or "in bad taste" it is to put it at the proposed site? 1. Wow, I guess Muslims can be reasonable and accommodating. I was wrong about them. I'm going to have to revise my opinion that all Muslims are just like the 9/11 terrorists or 2. We won! We won! ?? |
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20 Aug 10 - 02:28 AM (#2969149) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs "It's called Cordoba because Cordoba's in Spain, which used to be Catholic, and the IRA are Catholic, when they aren't being vice-versa. The conspiracies get everywhere." Cordoba is also in Argentina! |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:32 AM (#2969194) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs What would be the reaction if raving scientologists (see Jive Aces, famous swing band) or raving mormons wanted a centre there?? |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:01 AM (#2969257) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs Actually it would be a good thing upon reflection because music is good for moving on from something bad - look at South Africa and what the hideous Boers did to the blacks in the 1970s! |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:28 AM (#2969269) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks @LadyJean: WTC construction |
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20 Aug 10 - 08:08 AM (#2969287) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs World class resaurants eh - Nouvelle Cuisine with fancy patterns on your plate sir? |
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20 Aug 10 - 11:25 AM (#2969417) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: theleveller "Of course, Christians have had a long tradition of doing the very same thing, changing pagan temples into churches." Indded they have - close to where I live is Rudston Monolith, Britain's tallest single standing stone and around 4000 years old. The church is built right next to it on a hill overlooking a series of ancient cursuses. Rudston Monlith |
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20 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM (#2969460) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Ringer Are Muslims favored? Click Here |
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20 Aug 10 - 12:32 PM (#2969466) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks Doesn't seem so...or at least I hadn't heard that the Muslims wanting to build a community center were expecting the property plus $30 million to be given them by the City of New York. |
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20 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM (#2969524) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Digression- Joe, there is no evidence that El Sanctuario in Chimayo ever was the site of an Indian shrine. I know it well, as a child I went there with my parents every fall to get Chimayo chili, and winesap type apples from a little orchard nearby to the village. The chapel was first built in roughly 1810 by a descendant of original Spanish settlers. The records are fairly complete. Chimayo also has the remains of one of the original settler's villages, adobe dwellings and a chapel, all built in a square around an open area, now in ruins but one side which included the chapel is still there. One of the local families tries to keep visitors away by spreading scare stories about a dangerous dog, etc., but a short walk to the southwest of the chapel will take you there. The little villages, Chimayo, Truchas and others on the edges of the Sangre de Christo are all interesting, their old chapels, built by settlers and some not at first recognized by the Spanish clergy, contain folk art and wall decoration that is interesting and unknown to the throngs of tourists that visit Santa Fe. Each also has its penitente chapel, closed to outsiders. Cordoba, in Spain, contains one of the best preserved mosques; refitting into a church following the expulsion of the muslims did not destroy the magnificent columned interior, it is a gem. Originally the site of a Christian chapel built by Visigoths, a portion now is reoccupied by a Christian church. Cordoba |
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20 Aug 10 - 02:39 PM (#2969554) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) CNN yesterday had long programs on Americans views on Muslims yesterday. Polls show 20-25 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslin. Some 35 percent do not believe Muslims will fit into the American pattern. A significant percentage are against any mosques. Obama's opponents are attacking him in every way possible; they are succeeding and he will be a one-term president. The arguments over the Islamic Center will seriously affect the mid-term elections, hardening the Obama opposition. |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:12 PM (#2969605) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer Q, thanks for setting me straight on Chimayo, a shrine that is about halfway between Santa Fe and Taos, New Mexico. I read or heard somewhere that Chimayo was a holy place long before the Spanish arrived, but I may have had wrong information. This Wikipedia article speaks about conversion of churches into Mosques. Toward the end of the article, it lists a few places of worship that were converted to Christian churches. -Joe- |
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20 Aug 10 - 04:18 PM (#2969609) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton I agree with that assessment Q, looks like the American electorate voted for change and will end up with good ole Hill n' Bill. BUT!!! If change is to be delivered a mould breaker is reqired, not a ball breaker. Obama was always a creature of the system, not rocking the boat too much is important to the Obama's of this world. Saying the words is not longer enough, they've got to believe what they say now! |
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20 Aug 10 - 05:52 PM (#2969664) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Paul Burke Polls show 20-25 percent of Americans believe Obama is a Muslin. A man of the cloth? |
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20 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM (#2969673) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Burke, I went one letter too far. Didn't get to listen to it all, but CNN was going on about some Muslim woman put on leave by Disneyland because she wore a head scarf. Looks like anything to do with them is fodder for the TV news broadcasters. |
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20 Aug 10 - 06:21 PM (#2969683) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bill D Some folks are ignoring the fact that they bought this building for a bit over $8 million...cheap for Manhattan. They can't just 'move' without a LOT more money. |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM (#2969725) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Are Muslims favored? Click Here No, Muslims are not favoured. You just can't read. The Faux News article clearly states what the real issue is with the Greek church: they're trying to do a land swap with the port authority for a piece of land worth $20,000,000.00 more than the land they now have, and want the port authority to give them the upgrade for free. Gee, why would that get bogged down? In addition they don't even have the money to build a tithe of the edifice they want. They've had 10 years to raise the money to build a new church. There's not even a fundraising pitch on their website. These people, God forgive me for I am Orthodox too, are inept. Comparing this to Faud wanting to build a community center on land he already owns and that he has the money to go ahead with? It's like comparing apples and orangutans. |
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20 Aug 10 - 07:38 PM (#2969734) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer This weeks's TimeMagazine has a cover story asking whether the US is Islamophobic. Interesting reading. -Joe- |
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20 Aug 10 - 10:08 PM (#2969784) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Correct me if I am wrong but is not a temple of mammon not being built actually at Ground Zero called "the Freedom Tower" or something similar? |
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20 Aug 10 - 10:50 PM (#2969801) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) It will be called "One World Trade Center." Three lesser towers will accompany it, and they will surround something called "National September 11 Memorial & Museum." Yep, commerce must prevail over all. |
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21 Aug 10 - 12:47 AM (#2969846) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief The real American religion. |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:13 AM (#2969849) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer It's hard to believe that so many Americans buy into this crap. As one Mudcatter said, I think there is a concerted effort to undermine Barack Obama, to destroy him in any way possible. The real target of this onslaught against the Muslim Cultural Center, is Barack Obama. Whether you agree with Barack Obama or not, I think it's clear that he is an honorable man - one of the few honorable men who have occupied the White House in my lifetime. And the Big Money Boys are doing their best to bring him down. People have their prejudices, but it takes big money to exploit those prejudices - and that is exactly what's happening. -Joe- |
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21 Aug 10 - 07:47 AM (#2969943) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Anyone who assumes that all Muslims are the same or that all must be penalised for the sins of the few (a few who appear wholly to have misinterpreted the meaning of the word "jihad") despite the US's constitutional "freedom of religion" is a bigot. |
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21 Aug 10 - 12:43 PM (#2970064) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Les Fargo actually is saying that Muslims have no place in America, that a handful of terrorists represent the 5 to 8 million Muslims resident in the United States. |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM (#2970094) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger Personally I am opposed to any religious edifice attempting to "cash in" on Ground Zero. However, Mosque-bashing is becoming a vicious sport in the US. Whether it's a Mosque or a Catholic Church being erected (or any other religious edifice) the whole Ground Zero reaction is a complete red-herring. Whether one edifice or another goes up near there makes no difference whatsoever as to what happened on 911. |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:30 PM (#2970101) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs How about some mormon bashing - or scientologiists or raving catholics for a change? |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM (#2970108) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks And yet once again - it is not a mosque and it is not at or near "Ground Zero". |
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21 Aug 10 - 01:53 PM (#2970114) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox I'm up for bashing a few scientologists ... Lets sstart with this one ... Warning - this is very creepy ... |
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21 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM (#2970126) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow I am opposed to any religious edifice attempting to " cash in " on Ground Zero. It's not even that near "Ground Zero". The project to build the Moslem Cultural Centre in Park Place was started before 9/11. There are two Christian churches, at least, right next to "Ground Zero, much closer. And next door to to the proposed cultural centre there is an Amish Market. What is really unpleasant is seeing bigots and political opportunist attempting in this way to "cash in" on the tragic events of September 11th 2001, and to drum up hatred against Moslems, including millions of their fellow Americans. Unpleasant maybe isn't the right word. Disgusting might be closer. |
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21 Aug 10 - 11:44 PM (#2970323) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: LadyJean Conngratulations to the Port Authority of NYC on FINALLY building the freedom tower. It only took them 9 years. Im those 9 years, the catalogs have been full of tacky bric a brack commemorating fallen firefighters, New York Police, or the passengers of flight 93. Most of it made by foreigners, for someone who decided to make a buck off of 9/11. Then there were the promotions run by assorted retailers, the fundraisers, some real some fake, oh and George W's phoney terror alerts. Every one of them spitting on the graves of the men and women who died on September 11. Who cares about a piddly woo Islamic center. |
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22 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM (#2970520) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO There is already a mosque in one of the two buildings to be replaced by the Islamic Center, and has been there and operating for a number of years before 9/11, so that part of thing would not be changed. But the organizers of the Islamic Center need the next-door building too for their plans, and I understand they had thought they had or soon would have the financing to buy that building. That financing now looks doubtful. And the stories usually like to talk about "near Ground Zero". I wouldn't call it that. I understand it's about six blocks away. It's not as if it were to be across the street or down the block just a couple of buildings away. In that busy, crowded city, that's a long way. Dave Oesterreich |
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22 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM (#2970528) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I'm wondering if any religion (other than greed) is associated with the "Freedom Tower". |
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22 Aug 10 - 01:38 PM (#2970531) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Again- There will be no 'freedom tower', the building will be named "One World Trade Center." |
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22 Aug 10 - 02:20 PM (#2970557) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. This weeks's TimeMagazine has a cover story asking whether the US is Islamophobic. The U.S. Islamophobic? Does the Pope shit in the woods? |
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22 Aug 10 - 03:01 PM (#2970578) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge From above, as to exact location: - "just How Far Is the "Ground Zero Mosque" From Ground Zero? The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House. From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you. If you look up the walking directions you'll notice that it takes a couple of minutes to walk the distance (approximately a tenth of a mile) between the two spots. Pretty much two minutes exactly when I took the trip with a shaky video camera. Here's the clip, first sped up to 4X speed then slowed down to 1X: When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero. Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero." Now as to the other tower. So it's not going to be called "the Freedom Tower" but is the "One World Trade Center". Well, that makes its status as a temple of mammon clearer, but, I repeat, is there any indication of it being associated with any religion? |
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22 Aug 10 - 07:12 PM (#2970706) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Steve Shaw I hear that some Americans regard ground zero as some sort of sacred site because 3000 people were killed there. It's worth remembering that the direct upshot of that horrible day is that around one and a quarter million innocent people have been slaughtered in Iraq and Afghanistan. By America and its allies, but mostly by America. I wonder where their ground zero will be. |
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22 Aug 10 - 07:41 PM (#2970713) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox Here is a short video of a crowd demonstrating against the non-Mosque at 'ground zero'. It depicts a black man wearing a small hat walking through the crowd. The crowd, seeing a man with dark skin in a close fitting hat, instantly assume he is a Moslem and round on him. A big guy in a hard hat comes over to rough him up but is thankfully held in check. He is asked to leave and escorted off the premisses by a police man. Why? The answer folks is very simple. He was black and the crowd are racist. The video |
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23 Aug 10 - 01:08 AM (#2970855) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Lox, thank you for that link. It's hard to come up with a good adjective to describe my feelings. I used to be proud to be an American, because America was a country you could be proud of. It's becoming less so with every day. I HATE what the neo-cons and Tea Party have done to my country. It will take decades to undo the damage. |
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23 Aug 10 - 01:14 AM (#2970856) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Joe Offer Well, I gotta say the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree. Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble. It also appears to me that the demonstration was located in an area much nearer to the so-called Ground Zero. Wouldn't you think it would be at the proposed "mosque" site? Of course, if the demonstration were at the actual site of the proposed Islamic Cultural Center, people would see how insignificant the site is - and how nice it would be to have some new construction instead of abandoned buildings on that space. -Joe- |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:06 AM (#2970941) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stu "Well, I gotta say the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree. Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble." That's not the impression I get from the video, rather a large crowd of white people seem to threatening a black man because they thought he was a Muslim. |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:33 AM (#2970952) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "the guy wasn't too bright to walk into the middle of an angry demonstration and disagree" This is inaccurate. There is no disagreeing with them until they start abusing him. The guy is at pains to point out that noone there knows what he thinks or ever asked him what his opinion was. His only utterances are on the subject of the aggression he received. The only thing they've got to criticize him for are being black, having a hat, and being there. |
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23 Aug 10 - 06:15 AM (#2970969) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) He was in the area because quote: he "is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero". After being confronted he states "I'm not even Muslim!". So he was a non-Muslim black bloke wearing a close fitting beany cap who happened to be there because he works there. And the crowd were a racist and potentially dangerous lynch-mob. |
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23 Aug 10 - 06:17 AM (#2970970) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Joe is correct, the guy was either an idiot....calling the crowd motherfuckers, or a self publicist looking for his 15 minutes of fame. I would hate to see what would happen in the UK, if a BNP supporter started calling our "liberal anti facists" motherfuckers! Another bloodbath? Actually, I thought given the emotional content,that the American demonstrators conducted themselves very well. They in the main looked just like ordinary folks.....no crash helmets or Balaclavas! |
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23 Aug 10 - 06:19 AM (#2970971) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,Shimrod "Again- There will be no 'freedom tower', the building will be named "One World Trade Center."" Now that is really scary! The mightiest god of all, these days, is money. It seems to me that the world is degenerating into some weird 3-way fight between those who worship money and two types of religious (i.e. 'old style' religious) fundamentalists; a plague on all their houses! |
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23 Aug 10 - 07:12 AM (#2970990) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks The World Trade Center is a large office complex in central Manhattan. It originally had seven buildings, named (imaginatively) One through Seven. The twin towers were officially named One and Two World Trade Center; the new building will use the original name and Two will not be replaced. The third building destroyed, Seven World Trade Center, has already been rebuilt and reopened in 2006. |
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23 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM (#2970994) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I have listened to that video and I don't think he does call the crowd "motherfuckers". I think he says "What the fuck?" - a very reasonable question since it seems he was Joe ordinary on his way to work. The crowd shouts later on of "Mohammed's a pig" are however both extremely clear and extremely shameful. There is no way that it can rationally be said that the crowd conducted themselves well. I am intrigued by the "One World Trade Centre" - is "One World" part of its name, emphasising the colonialist aspirations of capitalism, or is "One" simply the number - sort of "Building No. 1, World Trade Centre"? I wonder if the new tower symbolises more than a simple fixation on greed, in that the original proponent of the prizewinning design was Daniel Libeskind, the original developer was Larry Silverstein, and a number of design features seem to be the work of Schlaich Bergermann and partner. Quote from Wikipedia follows: - Key people [edit] Larry Silverstein Larry Silverstein of Silverstein Properties, the leaseholder and developer of the complex, will retain control of the surrounding buildings, while the Port Authority gets full control of the tower itself. Silverstein signed a 99-year lease for the World Trade Center site in July 2001. Silverstein's insurance payout has been a subject of public discourse, as he maintained that the two planes constituted two separate attacks and sued for an extra $3.5 billion. Silverstein has pledged to support the reconstruction and remains actively involved in most aspects of the redevelopment process. [edit] David Childs David Childs, one of Larry Silverstein's favorite architects, initially came on board thanks to Silverstein's insistence, and developed a proposal for 1 WTC in collaboration with Daniel Libeskind, a design which was revised in May 2005 to address security concerns. He is the project architect of the new 1 WTC, and is responsible for overseeing the day-to-day design development from rough inception to final completion. [edit] Daniel Libeskind Daniel Libeskind won the 2002 competition to develop a master plan for the World Trade Center's redevelopment. Architect Daniel Libeskind won the invitational competition to develop a master plan for the World Trade Center's redevelopment in 2002. He included an initial proposal for the design of 1 WTC, a building with aerial gardens and windmills with an off-center spire. It was also Libeskind who denied a request to place the tower in a more rentable location next to the PATH station and instead placed it a block west because in profile it would line up and resemble the Statue of Liberty. Although these designs have since been changed, his contributions continue to shape the design and development at Ground Zero, as they are revised to meet economic and security realities. [edit] Dan Tishman Dan Tishman, along with his father John Tishman, builder of the original World Trade Center, is leading the construction management effort for Tishman Realty & Construction, the selected builder for 1 WTC. [edit] Douglas & Jody Durst The co-presidents of the real estate development company The Durst Organization won the right to invest at least $100 million (but could reach as high as $300 million) in the project on July 7, 2010. They are a family owned private company that specializes in the development, managing, leasing, and operations of sustainable commercial construction space.[70][71][72] Conde Nast, a long time Durst tenant, has also confirmed a tenative deal to move into 1 World Trade Center.[71][73][74] |
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23 Aug 10 - 08:16 AM (#2971034) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks @Richard: "One" is the building number, replacing the original #1, which was numbered 1 because it was the first one erected in the complex. See my post just before yours. |
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23 Aug 10 - 09:27 AM (#2971080) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Thank you Art. I think your post arrived while I was composing mine. |
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23 Aug 10 - 10:18 AM (#2971102) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Looks to me like he was lookin' for trouble Yeah, that's always been the problem with them Nigras. They're alway's lookin' for trouble. Walkin' while Black. Drivin' while Black. Tryin'to vote. Medgar Evers wuz lookin' fer trouble. Denise McNair, Addie Mae Collins, Carole Robertson and Cynthia Wesley wuz DAMN sure lookin' fer trouble an' they got it. Jus' don' know their place. Who the hell did he think he wuz, walkin down th' street just like a white person? Ya know, in the 1920's the Ku Klux Klan-re-born in all its Reconstruction-era virulence at Stone Mountain, GA in 1915- had over 5 million signed-up members committed to their anti-Black, anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant, anti-union "This Is A White Man's Country" bullshit. With today's population, this ratio would translate to 11 million - and I think we've got 'em AND MORE, certainly in spirit if not in name & organizational affiliation. A sad day for what's left of America. |
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23 Aug 10 - 10:28 AM (#2971116) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "Joe is correct, the guy was either an idiot....calling the crowd motherfuckers, or a self publicist looking for his 15 minutes of fame." Ake must have missed this. "He was in the area because quote: he "is a Union carpenter who works at Ground Zero". After being confronted he states "I'm not even Muslim!". " I'm curious to know how he was publicising himself, or how walking to and from work was going to get him his 15 minutes of fame. Then again, I suppose it is likely that Ake didn't miss it, but just chose to ignore it. If Ake says the guy was provking the crowd then it follows that it must be true, and if you support the guys right to go to and from work without being harrassed, and condemn the crowd to victimize him on his way to and from work, then you are a "liberal fascist". Thanks to Ake we have established the key issue highlighted by the video - the irresponsibility of innocent passers by for not anticipating that a crowd protesting against a mosque might be aggressive racists. It was his own fault that he was abused, so Ake is right to add to that abuse by calling him an idiot. I suppose it would be comparable to a teenage girl wearing a miniskirt to a nightclub and then being raped, insofar as he was asking for it really. FW is back folks. |
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23 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM (#2971147) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) I reckon those protesters aught to have a lynching over at their nearest Nike distributors. Check out this: Nike Support Muslim Terrorists! |
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23 Aug 10 - 02:15 PM (#2971245) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow They in the main looked just like ordinary folks That's what is really worrying. The time when extremism really starts to matter is when when it becomes perfectly ordinary to be an extremist, and in fact it stops being "extremism", and becomes part of the mainstream. In the Jim Crow years, racism in the South was not in any way an extremist position, it was mainstream. Ever seen "Triumph of the Will"? The crowds who cheered Hitler in Nuremberg "in the main looked just like ordinary folks". That precisely what they were, in that time and that place. |
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23 Aug 10 - 04:04 PM (#2971302) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox McGrath - I see you are falling for "liberal" dogma again. You see it ould make so much more sense if you would follow Ake's "maverick", "independant" lead. You'd seem so much more original and insightful if you did. Ah well ... another conscript for the "liberal fascists" |
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23 Aug 10 - 04:51 PM (#2971317) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Mr McGrath, do you really think these people were behaving like extremists? Then you have led a very sheltered life. I have been a "extremist" I have demonstrated with extremists I know how extremists think....and the folks in New York were on a Sunday school picnic compared to some of the violence I have seen....and yes participated in. As I said earlier, the that man had walked into the middle of an anti-facist demo in the UK and started calling the demonstrators "motherfuckers"....he would have ended up a bloody pulp. One must remember that to ordinary American folks, three thousand of their fellow citizens were viciously murdered by radical Islamists and no one has been brought to justice for that vile act. Whether you or I are in agreement with that perception is neither here nor there, these people do not share the left wing perspective that the United States of America is a rapacious bullying monster, which deserves all it gets in the way of retribution, but sincerly believe their armed forces are a bulwark against those who would destroy Western values of freedom and democracy. As for the man who walked through the demonstration cursing the demonstrators, I feel he was very lucky that they showed such remarkable restraint. |
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23 Aug 10 - 04:53 PM (#2971319) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: gnu There's a high probabilty it's gonna get bombed. Just sayin. |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:09 PM (#2971326) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Ake - 1. I see no evidence that the worker was walking around calling anyone anything. He has plainly already been confronted by the opening of the video. 2. I don't hear him say "motherfucker". I hear what I said I heard before and it's still very reasonable. 3. You hear the crowd screaming "Mohammed is a Pig". If not wash your ears. That's oral at least extremism. 4. Even assuming that 3,000 were murdered by radical Islamists, what has that got to do with attacking a man who was not even a Moslem, much less a radical Islamist? 5. How stupid do you have to be to be shouting "No Mosque Here" when (a) it isn't a mosque (b) it won't be there, and (c) there is already a mosque on the site where it will be? |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:22 PM (#2971336) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Don Firth After viewing that video, and seeing a number of videos of "Tea Party" rallies, I advance the hypothesis that the larger the crowd is, the lower the average I.Q. is. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:25 PM (#2971337) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow Extremists? No, as I said, I am worried that they do not appear to be "extremists", but that the attitudes they represent appear to be, in that time and that place, pretty mainstream, and that they are vile attitudes. Extremists don't really matter too much, in the final analysis. They can cause mayhem and so forth, but so long as they are on their own they can never win. It's when the ordinary people come on board that things change. That applies whether the extremism involved is seen as "good" or as "bad". ........................... I think gnu is very likely right in predicting that the centre will very likely get bombed. And a lot of "ordinary folk" will take satisfaction from that happening. |
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23 Aug 10 - 05:51 PM (#2971351) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Just as a lot of "ordinary folk" took satisfaction from the bombing of the towers? |
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23 Aug 10 - 07:07 PM (#2971392) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lizzie Cornish 1 I think they should let Cordoba House be built. Then, they get on and build a Round House of Muti-Faith on the site of Ground Zero which has one entrance door for all, above which are the words "All Are Welcome Within This Holy Place' It should be built by builders from around the world, of all faiths, of all colours, of all backgrounds. That way, Ground Zero would mean something special to every faith on the planet and perhaps make them realise that we are all One Species. Cordoba House would soon pale beside The House of Many Faiths..... |
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23 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM (#2971401) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow That doesn't actually sound all that different from what is proposed for "Cordoba House": "The Cordoba Initiative...is a multi-faith non-profit organization whose aim is to improve relations between different communities, and in particular between the Muslim world and the United States of America. The proposed community center in Lower Manhattan will serve as a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally." (From here) |
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23 Aug 10 - 08:43 PM (#2971447) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox Oh ... I see where my mistake is ... ... The crowd weren't as extreme as Ake and his chums 'back in the day' - they were better behaved than Ake used to be - which makes them normal. Cos in the old days, if you stumbled into Akes crowd saying "motherfucker" you were likely to have your face ground into the pavement. And therefore, the guy was an idiot for walking through that crowd. You know, I had thought of pointing out that the only time a BNP supporter ever gets embroiled in the middle of an anti-fascist crowd is when he steams in with an Iron bar. Who knows, maybe in the old days Akes bunch would be on an anti fascist demo, when they would coincidentally find themselves surrounding an innocent skinhead out for a stroll to get the sunday papers - of course they wouldn't have been alerted to his presence until he shouted "motherfucker", at which point everyonw would pile in. Blimey Ake, the stories you must have stored up for the grandkids eh? ... |
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23 Aug 10 - 08:48 PM (#2971449) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox PS - the only reason the crowd in the video, courageously led by the guy in the blue hard hat, don't beat the black guy up is because the big security guy stops it happening. Rosa Parks was an idiot for not giving up her seat. She could have avoided trouble by just standing up and keeping the peace. Right? |
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23 Aug 10 - 08:55 PM (#2971454) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: bobad Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque! By RonPaul.com on August 20, 2010 Congressman Ron Paul today released the following statement on the controversy concerning the construction of an Islamic Center and Mosque in New York City: Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery? It has been said, "Nero fiddled while Rome burned." Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are "fiddling while the economy burns." The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque. Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be "sensitive" requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from "ground zero." Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom? In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it. They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice. The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we're supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems. The nineteen suicide bombers didn't come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11. Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don't want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be "sensitive" and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction. This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible. There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred? If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable. The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer. Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses. Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia. It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don't want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty. The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives' aggressive wars. The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam. This is all about hate and Islamaphobia. We now have an epidemic of "sunshine patriots" on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there's no controversy and nobody is offended. Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored. |
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23 Aug 10 - 09:35 PM (#2971465) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Ron Paul, eh? He who would sup with the devil should take a long spoon. |
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23 Aug 10 - 09:42 PM (#2971469) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox Nonetheless - thanks Bobad for that post |
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23 Aug 10 - 09:48 PM (#2971470) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Wow, bobad, very surprising! And yet, strangely, very evenly and reasonably argued. |
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23 Aug 10 - 10:08 PM (#2971483) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert Ake, ol buddy... I hate to say it but, ahhhhh, me thinks that you are trying fight the last war... I mean, life goes on... This is a new day and with it new problems and opportunities... Build the center... Hey, when black people wanted to have equal opportunity to attend the better funded schools in the South there were plenty of white people sayin, "Whoa, not so fast"... It's the nature of people, Ake, and I hate to say it but your are soundin' alot like those "Whoa, not so fast" folks... Build it!!! BTW, there weren't any cheering comin' outta my house on 9/11/01 and I dare say that that was the same in just about every house in the USA... Yeah, I hated Bush's stealing of the election but compaired to what I felt on 9/11 that election theft wasn't squat... Weren't no cheering parties on this side of the pond... Build it!!! This is America... Not some 3rd world country... B~ |
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23 Aug 10 - 10:47 PM (#2971494) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Landmarks Preservation Commission approved plans for the Muslim Center, usually the final step in the approval process, but several groups, including NY Firefighters, are planning on contesting the project in court. It should be built, but look for a long, drawn out battle. It probably will topple the mayor, who supports it. |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:54 AM (#2971574) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I would point out that Ron Paul repeatedly and wrongly calls the proposed building a mosque. This despite his apparent support for the right to build the cultural centre worries me, as does his rooting his support in the rights of private property. That is not truly the central point - it is of constitutional equality under the law. |
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24 Aug 10 - 08:43 AM (#2971705) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: bobad Christopher Hitchins wades into the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate: http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/ |
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24 Aug 10 - 08:56 AM (#2971712) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lizzie Cornish 1 >>>McGrath of Harlow - PM Date: 23 Aug 10 - 07:20 PM That doesn't actually sound all that different from what is proposed for "Cordoba House": "The Cordoba Initiative...is a multi-faith non-profit organization whose aim is to improve relations between different communities, and in particular between the Muslim world and the United States of America. The proposed community center in Lower Manhattan will serve as a platform for multi-faith dialogue. It will strive to promote inter-community peace, tolerance and understanding locally in New York City, nationally in America, and globally." (From here) <<< Where Cordoba House goes wrong though, McGrath, is that it is first and foremost a Mosque. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But to have a multifaithed 'religion' of Faith, you have to have Neutral Ground on which to build it. Where better to build that than upon the very ground where Christians, Muslims, Jews, and probably many other folks from other religions died. Let what rises from the ashes of Ground Zero be something Unique and Extraordinary, where all religions are intermingled and united for the Common Good and Peace of the World. Now that would truly make terrorists of all religions weep in anger... We have to move forwards, not backwards, if we are to survive as a Species... |
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24 Aug 10 - 08:59 AM (#2971713) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. "... the centre will very likely get bombed. Yup, we have met the Terrorrists, and them is us. ... and a lot of "ordinary folk" will take satisfaction from that happening. Yep. taking pleasure in acts of terrorism. The American Way. This is America... Not some 3rd world country... Give it a little time, Bobert - can't turn The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave into a 3rd world shithole overnight. But they're making good progress... |
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24 Aug 10 - 11:01 AM (#2971789) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lox "Where Cordoba House goes wrong though, McGrath, is that it is first and foremost a Mosque" Lizzie, please pay attention. It isn't going to be a Mosque at all - foremost or lastmost - just-not-at-all-most. ok? |
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24 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM (#2971799) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Nor is it "Cordoba House." They changed the name of it to pander to -- excuse me, out of sensitivity to -- the f***wits who were using it as a club to beat them. The same sensitive souls who can be heard chanting "Mohammed is a pig" on a video on youtube that shows them almost beating up a black man because they think he's Muslim. Yeah, it's all about sensitivity. |
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24 Aug 10 - 12:50 PM (#2971845) Subject: RE: BS: IslamicCulturalCentre 6blocks ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO While the Islamic Cultural Center is not planned to be a mosque as such, it should be noted that there is already a mosque, of long standing, on the property. It has been there, and operating as such, for a number of years BEFORE 9/11. Further, as I understand it, there is to be a mosque within and part of the proposed Center. And I say "appropriately so". Since there is already a mosque on the property, the objectors are (1) objecting to the Cultural Center, regardless of the mosque, and (2) at least by implication, they are trying to close an existing house of worship, or perhaps to force it to be moved from the site it has occupied peacefully for many years. As to the "too near Ground Zero" argument, the question comes to mind, "What distance would NOT be too near?" I get the impression that the answer of the objectors would be, "Oh, about eight thousand miles." Dave Oesterreich |
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24 Aug 10 - 12:54 PM (#2971850) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bonzo3legs Who cares about the USA anyway? |
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24 Aug 10 - 01:10 PM (#2971857) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow In this context "a mosque" means a room set aside for prayer. All hospitals these days, and lots of other public buildings have rooms set aside for prayer. Christians, Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus, people without any religion, anything you like - they can all pray or meditate or whatever there. That's what rooms set aside for prayer are for. I would think it a very reasonable idea that the massive commercial offices that are being built on Ground Zero should include a multi-faith prayer room alongside the money-making facilities. If it doesn't that might be reasonable enough grounds for people to make a fuss about the omission. In contrast to this very nasty stuff that has been drummed up by hatemongers. |
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24 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM (#2971875) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Emma B Andrew Brown 'tags' a couple of the 'hatemongers' in his 'Comment is Free' blog in The Guardian last Wednesday 'The two people behind SIOA (Stop Islamisation of America) are Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, who, between them, run two flourishing and hate-filled sites, Jihad Watch and Atlas Shrugs, which link into an undergrowth of far-right websites in Europe, including the skinheads of the English Defence League, but also to respectable rightwingers such as Douglas Murray of the Centre for Social Cohesion, and even the Catholic Herald. To judge from their websites, the important political movement in England is the English Defence League (as Geller calls them, "the courageous English patriots of the much-maligned English Defence League") The poison behind the 'Ground Zero mosque' furore |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:30 PM (#2971971) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief How delightful. One of the Tea Party high-ups has called the mayor of NYC a "Judenrat" and, far from apologizing, stands by his words. Yes, the opposition to the mosque is all about people's tender sensitivities. |
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24 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM (#2971989) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,David E. I miss the days when you could honestly disagree with someone and not immediately be slapped across the face with the label racist, homophobe etc etc. Sure has taken all the fun out of a good argument. David E. |
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24 Aug 10 - 04:17 PM (#2972012) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Bobert me bhoy!....." I hate to say it but, ahhhhh, me thinks that you are trying fight the last war" You better believe it my friend......we Scots have still not forgiven the fuckin' "Sassenachs" for Culloden!! After we get even, THEN we'll forgive 'em. "Alba Gu Brath!" |
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24 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM (#2972014) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert The most infuriating part of this this discussion is thatn here in America it shouldn't be occuring... This is just more bullshit from the Tea Party crybabies who are trying to wreck havoc on the stability of the country... They are nothin' but muschief makers, crybabies and whiners who aren't much different from the Taliban... If these Tea Party people ever gain pwer in the country then this country will will go down in flames... Where's all that "personal responsibility" that the conservatives used to talk about??? I mean, as citizens we do have a "personal responsibility" to maintain some level of civilization within our ranks... The Tea Party folks have missed this very iporatnt point about being a citizen of this country and respecters of not only the constitution but law in general... B~ |
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24 Aug 10 - 04:25 PM (#2972017) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton and just a thought, how do you "almost beat up a black man"? Answers in a plain sealed envelope please. |
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24 Aug 10 - 04:29 PM (#2972020) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Lizzie Cornish 1 "Further, as I understand it, there is to be a mosque within and part of the proposed Center. And I say "appropriately so". Since there is already a mosque on the property, the objectors are (1) objecting to the Cultural Center, regardless of the mosque, and (2) at least by implication, they are trying to close an existing house of worship, or perhaps to force it to be moved from the site it has occupied peacefully for many years." Lox, do pay attention, dear.... ;0) |
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24 Aug 10 - 04:35 PM (#2972028) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Use your imagination, ake. You have proven you have one, by the multiple inanities you make up. |
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24 Aug 10 - 05:24 PM (#2972062) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: kendall What's this about building a library next to Sara Palin's house? Damn trouble makers. |
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24 Aug 10 - 05:40 PM (#2972068) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: gnu K! Hahahahahahaaaahehehehehehee |
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25 Aug 10 - 12:02 AM (#2972244) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: MARINER What's this about the Saudi who is funding the cultural centre also being the second biggest shareholder, next to the Murdoch family, in Fox News?. If so , is it strange that Fox appears to be the TV station foremost in agitating against centre ?? |
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25 Aug 10 - 01:04 AM (#2972259) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks Since when is a Saudi, or anyone else, funding the Center? At last report...from the Center's director...fundraising has not yet begun. |
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25 Aug 10 - 04:18 AM (#2972351) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: MARINER Apparently a Saudi sheik named Al-Waleed bin Talel is reported to finance the centre to the tune of 10 million.He is also apparently, a major shareholder, through his Kingdom Holding Company, in Fox News,who recently named him as some kind of supporter of fundamentalist mosques throughout the world. |
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25 Aug 10 - 07:30 AM (#2972434) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre "near" ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow The heading to this thread is a bit misleading, since the building in question is not particularly near Ground Zero. Perhaps a change to the heading on the lines I have put in above this post might be a good idea. |
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25 Aug 10 - 08:12 AM (#2972460) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Oh yeah, Fox News, those purveyors of perverted bullshit. I believe 'em - thousands wouldn't. |
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25 Aug 10 - 08:50 AM (#2972480) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert Who has financed the Dulles corridor in NoVa??? Well, I'll tell ya' who... Defense conractors and other companies who have the political might to extract big tax payer's dollars out of Washington... I mean, let's get real here... While it may be good to know where developement money comes from it shouldn't be a deal breaker unless we find that one of our known enemies is behind financing it... But the Saudis aren't our enemies... (But, Boberdz... Wasn't it mostly Saudis who were involved in 9/11???) Well, yeah, it was but those folks no more represented Saudi Arabia then Tim McVeight represented America... But, another straw man into the discussion becuase it's easier to use strawmen, red herrings and hysteria than to ask ourselves what America stands for and how best can it de-escalate the conflict that the right wing wants to keep buring beteen America and the Moslum religion... Me thinks that alot of fols do not understand what the Constituion is all about... (No, Boberdz... It's about guns...) My poin exactly.... So we've come to a point where people get to pick and choose what parts of the Constitution are meaningfull??? Hmmmmmmm??? Yup, 30 years of not educating people has finally settled in and it ain't too purdy... B~ |
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25 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM (#2972525) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks @Mariner: do you have any source for that besides the blogosphere? There is certainly nothing in the news, and the organizers say otherwise. |
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25 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM (#2972541) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: MARINER Only from American TV. Surely they wouldn't lie ? (Ok ,it was comedy central's John Stewart !!),But bin Talel is a big shareholder in Fox and it seems Dan Senor did condemn him as the main financier of fundamentalist mosques worldwide. |
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25 Aug 10 - 05:34 PM (#2972828) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Kingdom Holding Company in an investment group headed by bin Tafel. Investmnts include Canary Wharf, some of the finest hotel chains, Walt Disney, Hewlett Packard, Ebay, Pepsico, News Corporation, etc. It is a forward-looking group, supporting, among other things, Saudi women, Saudi charities, Humanitarian Foundation of Lebanon, Centers supporting studies and forums encouraging dialogue and reconciliation among the different world religions (where the NY group comes in), donations to groups fighting poverty, etc. It has nothing to do with fundamentalism in Muslim groups. |
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25 Aug 10 - 06:13 PM (#2972851) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: MARINER Then it seems someone on Fox ,or Stewart is telling lies . Thanks for clearing that up for me. |
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25 Aug 10 - 11:57 PM (#2973001) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief If I had to choose between believing Fox is telling lies and Stewart is telling lies, I'd pick Fox is telling lies every time. Every time they open their mouths. |
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26 Aug 10 - 12:05 AM (#2973004) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: *#1 PEASANT* I support the community center provided that all paper trails are transparent and that all links to funding are public knowledge. If the center is somehow supported in a major way by a terrorist organization or terrorist state it becomes a different issue- it is then an agent of a terrorist group and not a religious freedom issue. So far the information is not available. I support the center and do not much care for those who are using Tyranny of Sensitivity to try to stop something that is legal. That said it is important to realize that those practicing Tyranny of Sensitivity work on many levels. If someone is "sensitive" they have a near legal right to ruin you. Look at use of the N word or free speech concerning race and life way issues. In america the drill is 1. exercise free speech 2. get attacked by the sensitivity Tyrants 3. make an emotional appology and retraction "I must have been insane to exercise my free speech" 4. Loose job and never get hired again 5. Maybe get job back but not such a good one (Google Don Imus) So knowing this one response might be what dont the Islamic Center people understand about America. The Sensitivity Tyrants rule. And it is consistent. Now that said I think that the lesson here is that the Sensitivity Tyrants always need to be put down. Not just sometimes but in all instances. If it is legal to exercise free speech then it should be for everyone. I would like Obama to make it clear that we have free speech at all levels and that it applies to every instance. While I support free speech we must take are not to fall into the trap as did the English. Terror and warfare masqueraded under free speech until the government caught on at which time for some it was too late. Now that would be a good outcome. I will enjoy getting lots of words back and the protection that voicing a non PC point of view wont cost me my job. Conrad |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:35 AM (#2973231) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing Here is what some Iraq and Afghanistan US veterans have to say on this subject: (From www.votevets.org) Dear Friend, Since the debate erupted, we've kept out of the argument over the planned Community Center for Muslims in Lower Manhattan (falsely called the "Ground Zero Mosque"). Initially, we believed this was a local issue for New Yorkers to discuss. But, we can no longer stay silent. We need your help. We're asking for you to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans who already signed an open letter to the developer of the site, Sharif El-Gamal, supporting his right to develop the site, and expressing the view that allowing his community center to move forward will be a powerful tool in defeating the same terrorists we fought against in war. There are two very important reasons we Iraq and Afghanistan veterans feel we must speak out. First and foremost, when we signed up for service, we swore to uphold the Constitution. For all the talk these days from some quarters about the importance of protecting the Constitution and allowing the free market to work unfettered, those same people are fighting against a person's right to buy property and worship freely. Our duty to protect the Constitution doesn't end when our service does. It's up to us to stand up for the right for all Americans to enjoy the Constitutional freedoms that so many around the world don't have. Secondly, allowing the Community Center to move forward will deal a blow to the propaganda of al Qaeda and Islamist extremists, who recruit on the talking point that the United States is in a war against Islam. Of course, we're not. But, if those forces of intolerance win, it will certainly appear that we are in a war against one religion - Islam. As Matthew Alexander, a former interrogator in Iraq, and VoteVets.org member wrote at the Huffington Post, "Imagine an al Qaeda recruiter attempting to sway a potential charge by citing an imaginary American war against Muslims but having to face the counterargument that Americans built a Muslim community center near the site of the former Twin Towers. The Cordoba House would be a powerful symbol of U.S. tolerance and freedom that will stand in direct contradiction to al Qaeda's narrative that Americans hate Muslims." That's the point. Defeating al Qaeda will take the use of force. But it will also take destroying their ability to recruit, and that means winning hearts and minds. As veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan know, having the people on your side is of utmost importance. click here Please take a moment to click the link above to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in this open letter, supporting the right of Muslims to build a community center on property they lawfully bought. This is too important an issue for us to stay silent on any longer. Sincerely, Jon Soltz (Follow me on Twitter - @jonsoltz) Iraq War Veteran Chairman, VoteVets.org |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:53 AM (#2973240) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Mrrzy Just noticed the lovely middle ground of the thread title - I seem to hear the two sides represented as The Mosque Near Ground Zero or The Islamic Cultural Center in Lower Manhattan. |
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26 Aug 10 - 11:47 AM (#2973282) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks Did it, Kat. Thank you. |
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26 Aug 10 - 11:56 AM (#2973286) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief kat, awesome article! Thanks. |
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26 Aug 10 - 12:00 PM (#2973292) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: pdq ...allowing the Community Center to move forward will deal a blow to the propaganda of al Qaeda and Islamist extremists, who recruit on the talking point that the United States is in a war against Islam." There are 50 countries in the world with a Muslim majority. So, name a few of them that have a free and open press. Name even one that does not execrise complete control of broadcast media. In short, it makes no difference what we in the U.S. do, it will be reported a Anti-Islamic in the state-run propaganda machines. Building the Center is a matter of local building regulations and the local public sensibilities. It is being hyped by Islamists as evidence that they are the victims here. Same game as always, just a different venue. |
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26 Aug 10 - 12:45 PM (#2973326) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) AlJazeera, perhaps one of the best Muslim news organizations, always has balanced news coverage. An article today, "In the Face of Islamophobia," by Sean Bonner. Banners supporting the center and religious freedom and diversity, by artist Glen Friedman, were hung from his apartment on Liberty Avenue, overlooking ground zero. Bonner, in his comments, added these remarks. Excerpt- "New York is possibly the most cosmopolitan multi racial city in the world, a bold statement, but one few could deny. It is not only frustrating but misleading for people from far afield to associate New Yorkers as a whole with the xenophobic protests against the building of the Mosque and cultural centre. While our viewpoint isn't universal in the city, it is widely held, a position that is not being reflected by the mainstream media." "Our city is notorious for the many buildings for religious practice; Mosques are located all over the island and across the boroughs, along side churches, chapels, synagogues and temples. Giving the city not just a plethora of places to worship, but adding distinctly to the cultural makeup of the city, creating a great wealth of diversity in ideas, beliefs and practices that make this city the unique place it is. A diversity enjoyed by the many millions that call New York home." All America should echo these sentiments. |
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26 Aug 10 - 01:36 PM (#2973370) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing mousethief and artbrooks, thanks. |
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26 Aug 10 - 01:39 PM (#2973372) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO MARINER said: Then it seems someone on Fox ,or Stewart is telling lies So what else is new? Dave Oesterreich |
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26 Aug 10 - 01:57 PM (#2973392) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Then it seems someone on Fox ... is telling lies. SHOCK! HORROR!!! |
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26 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM (#2973453) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Fox often gets misquoted- or the poster here is trying to stir up comment. As a moderately right-wing-centrist editorial position, Fox News is viewed with alarm by far left-wingers, some of whom contribute to mudcat threads. This from a long article about the man behind the cultural center on Fox News website, August 25, 2010, from Associated Press writers. "Mosque Developer claims classic NYC background, has modest real estate holdings." "Eight years ago, Sharif El-Gamal was just another ambitious striver from Brooklyn, casting about for career leads and dreaming of a grander future in real estate." "A handful of modest deals later, he's sitting on one of the most politically charged projects in recent city history: a plan to build a 13-story Islamic cultural center, health club and mosque 300 yards from the World Trade Center memorial.""At age 37, El-Gamal now finds himself being castigated daily on network television as everything from an insensitive agitator to an Islamic supremacist." "The whirlwind, has, by all appearances, cught him by surprise." The developer associated with El-Gamal is iman Feisal Abdul Rauf, founder of the American Sufi Muslim Association, dedicated to creating bridges between the American public and American Muslims. " In the past, programs and academic conferences run by two non-profit groups affiliated with Rauf have received money from the Kingdom Foundation, a charity affiliated with one of the world's richest men, Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal of the Saudi Royal family. "The prince has also invested heavily in American companies and donated may millions of dollars to American universities and charitable causes." "The Kingdom Foundation has, to date, had no role in El-Gamal's New York Islamic center." El-Gamal is also supporting an Islamic center in Harlem, to serve the many Senegalese and other Islamic immigrants in New York. |
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26 Aug 10 - 03:46 PM (#2973463) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow Mosque Developer claims classic NYC background With the word "claim" being placed there to imply that he must be lying? Or doesn't it carry that implication in the USA? |
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26 Aug 10 - 03:54 PM (#2973471) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Don Firth Thank you for posting that, Kat. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I signed it. That certainly sums up the dynamics of the situation. I can't thimk of a better recruiting tool for al Quaeda than their being able to point at Americans' refusal to allow an Islamic cultural center to be opened. "See!?" says bin Laden, "That proves it!!" The best thing we can do is to welcome the center, and for people to use and and try to find out what Islam is really all about. What's important here, pdq, is not what anyone says about us, but what we actually do. Are we hypocrits? Or does the Constitution really mean something? Don Firth |
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26 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM (#2973490) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. "Far Left Wingers" - gotta love it. By wch you mean anyone with an attachment to the truth? |
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26 Aug 10 - 04:19 PM (#2973491) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks 'Claim', in the US, connotates a positive association...e.g., "I claim this" = "this is mine". Sometimes it implies that there has been no third party validation. In this case, 'claim' simply means 'has'. |
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26 Aug 10 - 04:26 PM (#2973493) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Don Firth Well . . . negative, too. As in, ". . . or so he claims." Implying that, even if it's not an outright lie, it's still probably not true. Don Firth |
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26 Aug 10 - 05:02 PM (#2973512) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow That sentence came across to me as implying "very likely not true", which is what would be the case in an English paper. But does it carry the same implication to Americans? |
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26 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM (#2973530) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing Thanks, Don! |
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26 Aug 10 - 05:54 PM (#2973551) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) McGrath, in this case 'claim' means only that El-Gamal is on the yellow brick road to becoming a real estate mogul, perhaps boasting a bit; I did not go on to quote a comparison the writers made with Donald Trump, who has gone beyond 'claim' to become the real Mazuma and the bricks have morphed to gold. El-Gamal has a few apartment buildings but that is small potatoes in the Apple. If you want to comment validly, go to Fox News on the net and read the article, don't try to read meanings into American usage from a word with several meanings, especially in reporterese. |
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26 Aug 10 - 05:59 PM (#2973554) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: pdq ...from Q's post: "...plan to build a 13-story Islamic cultural center, health club and mosque 300 yards from the World Trade Center memorial..." 13 story? It will include a "health club and mosque"? Please square those facts with the Mudcat statements that "it is not a mosque" and that it is "several blocks from ground zero". |
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26 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM (#2973568) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks The mosque is actually next-door to the site where the cultural center is planned. As for distance, I suppose that it depends on how long you consider a "block" to be. The site is apparently 2 blocks in one direction and one in another from the nearest part of the WTC - WTC 7. It is further from the former site of the twin towers (WTC 1 and WTC 2). In some opinions, "ground zero" is the place where the towers stood; in others it is anywhere in the city where debris way have landed. Take your pick. |
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26 Aug 10 - 06:33 PM (#2973573) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) pdq, your quarrel, if any, is with a newspaper article. However, the quoted statements from Fox News are from Associated Press material, and may be found also in NY Times, Wall Street Journal, and other reputable journals. Go and read for yourself- if you are at least semi-literate. |
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26 Aug 10 - 06:45 PM (#2973581) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I am simply gobsmacked by "As a moderately right-wing-centrist editorial position, Fox News". There is and never has ben anything moderate about Faux News. News should be the factual reporting of actual events, and separate from editorialisation. Faux seldom reports facts in an objective or accurate way, and its selection of its stories is way out. It is the creature of extreme capitalist propaganda (OK, not quite so far out as some of the US fundamentalist loonies, but a long way from moderate about anything). |
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26 Aug 10 - 06:49 PM (#2973584) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks A Map |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:03 PM (#2973687) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Where is ground zero? Amy Westfeldt, Associated Press, Aug 26, 2010, Minneapolis-St. Paul StarTribune. "The lines marking the site of the 2001 terror attacks change depending on whick New Yorker, family member and American you talk to. Even those who know it best can't agree on its boundaries. Kathleen Hall Jamieson, Univ. Pennsylvania communications professor who studies political rhetoric says, "What you have is a classic instance of people responding to a symbol whose meaning is physically divorced from the actual space." The map Artbrooks linked shows the outline of the area around ground zero closed off for safety reasons while heavy construction is ongoing. It is as good as any as a reference. I will accept it. Don't know the dimensions of the NY blocks in this part of the island, etc. but can't see that critical measurements are important. |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:23 PM (#2973693) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Hey now! Looky at the *"New York Dolls Gentleman's Club" on Artbrooks map. Only a block farther away- * The name on the marquee over the sidewalk. |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:33 PM (#2973697) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: pdq If you look at Art's map, there is a legend about 1/3 the way up from the bottom, on right. It shows 250 feet next to the corresponding line. If accurate, that suggest that the "Islamic Culteral Center" will be about 300 feet "as the crow flies" from Ground Zero, "North side X". |
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26 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM (#2973704) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief That sentence came across to me as implying "very likely not true", which is what would be the case in an English paper. But does it carry the same implication to Americans? Yes. If accurate, that suggest that the "Islamic Culteral Center" will be about 300 feet "as the crow flies" from Ground Zero, "North side X". SO? How far is far enough? There has been a long-running fight on Staten Island about building a mosque there. This is just anti-Islamism. The people chanting "Mohammed is a pig" at the demonstration outside the Burlington Coat Factory building make that very clear. It's hatred and bile. The ruse that it's about "sensibilities" is just that, a ruse. It's about bigotry. |
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26 Aug 10 - 11:37 PM (#2973722) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing There are crows in NYC? |
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27 Aug 10 - 06:57 AM (#2973865) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow ""as the crow flies" Have there been any objections to this from crows? |
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27 Aug 10 - 07:07 AM (#2973868) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: MGM·Lion Yes, there are a few crows in New York, I recall; but quite a few nice lookers also. ~Michael~ |
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27 Aug 10 - 08:29 AM (#2973909) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. ...[Ground Zero]... is anywhere in the city where debris way have landed. Taking the winds into account & the amount of dust and ash "Ground Zero" then likely includes The Bronx, Staten Island, Newark and perhaps Rhinebeck. Let's get all them Mosques OUTA THERE TOO!!! |
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28 Aug 10 - 08:32 AM (#2974520) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger The planned Park51 is not precisely at Ground Zero. The idea that people are objecting because of the area is specious. They are rejecting the project due to blind prejudice against Muslims. The attack on Muslims in the US is reminiscent of the early "Know Nothing Party" whereby stupid Protestants went after Catholics. I am not a proponent of religion in any way but I do see that the Constitution provides for the Separation of Church and State and I honor this. Muslims have the right to build cultural centers and mosques as much as Catholics can build their cathedrals or Protestants their churches and cultural centers. Synagogues and temples as well. This is still America. As long as I don't have to attend any, I'm fine with it. But make no mistake, the objection to this cultural center/mosque is bare and unequivocal racism and prejudice on the part of those who reject it. |
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29 Aug 10 - 04:27 AM (#2975002) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Amen! |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:50 AM (#2975145) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/08/28/racist-far-right-group-praised-by-ny-anti-mosque-organizers-riots-in-uk/# |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:54 AM (#2975148) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger There's an election coming up here in the States. After that, this issue will have been forgotten. (Short term memory in America is the first thing to go). |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:55 AM (#2975149) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert Q askes where the Ground Zero boudaries are... Well, to Beck and and his midless Tea Party worshipers, it encompaaases the "Lower 48"... B~ |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:58 AM (#2975152) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: olddude I can understand people's reaction and why it is such a hot potatoe for so many. But my take is different. To me 1) it tells the world that the Bill of Rights is alive and well in the US 2) That because of a few terrorists doing a terrible act of violence on us, we as a people will not change our views of others and their right to practice their faith 3) That we will not be victims to hate peddlers I see positive only things here even though it is a sensitive subject |
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29 Aug 10 - 12:48 PM (#2975245) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Well, olddude, I think you may be a little premature on your optimistiv pronouncements............. it ain't over 'til its over. The racist aresholes may still win this one......... |
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29 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM (#2975267) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) "Mindless Tea Party worshipers," "racist arseholes." Mindless pronouncements like these only increase anger among the millions of middle of the road Americans who have yet to find a leader that can bridge the divisions that are tearing the country apart. |
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29 Aug 10 - 01:35 PM (#2975270) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: gnu The racists will never win. But they will cause pain and grief. |
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29 Aug 10 - 01:54 PM (#2975282) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow What divisions are "tearing the country apart?" Rich and poor? Black and white? Young and old? Is it really the case that the Tea Party activists are wanting to bridge those divisions rather than exacerbate them. "...the millions of middle of the road Americans who have yet to find a leader that can bridge the divisions that are tearing the country apart." That sounds ominously familiar. Just take out that word "Americans" and replace it by "Germans", "Russians", "Italians"... |
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29 Aug 10 - 02:11 PM (#2975294) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: akenaton Get a grip Mr McGrath! Its perfectly clear what Q means......and its certainly not totalitarianism. |
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29 Aug 10 - 02:13 PM (#2975295) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Is it really the case that the Tea Party activists are wanting to bridge those divisions rather than exacerbate them. You're kidding, right? |
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29 Aug 10 - 02:29 PM (#2975303) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) I said nothing about "Tea Party activists." I did speak of the middle of the road Americans. I believe that they constituted the majority at the rally. The rally provided a focus for gathering to voice their displeasure with the present state of the U. S. (and also to praise the courage of the American soldier). |
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29 Aug 10 - 03:17 PM (#2975326) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/0829/arson-tennessee-mosque-site/ |
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29 Aug 10 - 03:21 PM (#2975331) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger The Tea Party is a minority in the U.S. It doesn't represent the majority of Americans. They seek no middle ground. If anything, they are puppets for the Kochs and the Armeys. They are not a genuine grass roots organization but a reactionary offshoot of Americans For Prosperity. If you want to know who the Tea Party really is, please do your homework and research it. They are emphatically not middle of the road Americans but radical extremists. |
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29 Aug 10 - 03:39 PM (#2975345) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Desert Dancer The scary thing about it all is the powers behind mass movements like the Tea Party, as you say. The public opinion is manufactured, in many ways. Existing discontent is channeled by those whose agenda may be more self-serving. Info here: Covert Operations; The billionaire brothers who are waging a war against Obama (New Yorker magazine) A good interview with Jane Meyer, the author of that article: Fresh Air with Terri Gross She has also written critically about George Soros, a big funder from the other side of the spectrum. She said that the big difference was that Soros spoke with her and is very transparent about his political funding efforts. The Koch brothers, as a former employee apparently said, "are not only under the radar, they are underground", truly operating covertly. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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29 Aug 10 - 04:03 PM (#2975365) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow W£hat does "middle of the road" actually mean? |
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29 Aug 10 - 06:22 PM (#2975446) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Webster's Collegiate Dictionary Middle-of-the-road: Standing for or following a course of action midway between extremes; esp. being neither liberal nor conservative in politics. At the present time, it means unhappy with current trends which are reducing their expectations and their numbers. |
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29 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM (#2975451) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger Yes, but when has the general public by-in-large ever been happy with current trends? This doesn't necessarily define what the Tea Party is. The middle-of-the-road designation for them doesn't add up. This is a fringe group that is dictated to by corporate interests and fueled by racism, a weapon of mass distraction. When the next election is over, the Park51 controversy will have been forgotten. Corporate interests are also being served by Saudi Arabia. Remember that the 911 perpetrators were from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. (At least this is what we are lead to believe since no reliable report has been issued on this subject). When the Islamic Cultural Center ceases to be a political football to defeat Obama, then the corporations will once again back Saudi interests and defuse the Muslim-bashing. |
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29 Aug 10 - 06:53 PM (#2975457) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow Being midway between two opposing positions is quite consistent with being very extreme indeed. |
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29 Aug 10 - 07:25 PM (#2975467) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks If the rally referred to above is the Beck rally rather than the Sharpton one, I doubt very much if there were very many middle-of-the-roaders there. That is not Mr. Beck's and Ms. Palin's audience. |
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29 Aug 10 - 08:12 PM (#2975498) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert "Middle of the road" is code for Tea Party... Just ask Glen Beck, he'll be perfectly willing to tell ya that... "Middle of the road" should mean averaghe intellegence and average education which would mean that "missle of the road" should know about the Constitution... (Well, Boberdz... "Middle of the road" does... It's the 2nd ammendment...) See what I mean... Middle of the road ain't exacly in the middle these days... It in the right side ditch... B~ |
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29 Aug 10 - 08:40 PM (#2975520) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) None of this has anything to do with the Islamic Center, but the thread has digressed. Art, I think you are wrong on that one. The middle-of-the-roaders, mostly the middle class, are angry and looking for a solution for their decreasing expectations. Of course Beck and Palin offer nothing of substance, but feel-good talky-talk. They do form a focus for their fears and worries. Profits in businesses are down, money is short, people can't afford college for their kids, some are unemployed due to the world economic sickness, house payments are not being met. The middle class, to which they belong, has shrunk. I hear from some of them, relatives and friends. Most are college graduates whose horizons have lowered and they are disenchanted with the government. They blame government spending, immigration, fear increasing taxes, bemoan loss of jobs to other countries, globalization- although the latter are inevitable as others catch up and compete, and the downward trend in education leads to failure to find new directions. They blame the administration, rightly or wrongly, and will vote for a change. Serious trouble is ahead for the party in power; some of its programs may be reversed. Twenty-one states are considering suit over the health bill. The suits have little merit under the Constitution, but the bill could be reversed or changed by vote in Congress. Ever since the Industrial Revolution, the moneyed interests have been blamed for subversion of public interest, but people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them. |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:19 PM (#2975550) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert 100% agreement here, Q... B~ |
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29 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM (#2975561) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: olddude Q just gave probably the best description I have read in a long time good job |
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29 Aug 10 - 11:45 PM (#2975634) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Slag Turn it around. The Dome of the rock has just been destroyed by some "mad" Jewish extremists in a hijacked 747. The table top land has been clear and now, thinks the Knesset, would be a good time to rebuild the Temple. Of course a mosque should be built. It is what active Islamists have always done upon the conquest of an enemy. |
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30 Aug 10 - 12:40 AM (#2975649) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Desert Dancer So the World Trade Center was actually a front for Christian (or non-Muslim, at least) holy ground? Gosh, I never realized that. |
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30 Aug 10 - 02:40 AM (#2975671) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them. Middle-class Americans have been voting against their own interests since at least 1980, when Reagan rode them into power and started shifting money from the middle class to the rich, which shifting has continued to this very day. It is not in the best interest of most Americans to deregulate industry or reduce the taxes of the super-rich. Capping the Social Security tax was against the best interests of the middle class, for instance, but did the middle class toss out the party that did it? Like hell. It is what active Islamists have always done upon the conquest of an enemy. Unfortunately for your point of view, the people wanting to build the mosque aren't active Islamists. But there are lots of interesting things to see under the sand. |
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30 Aug 10 - 07:05 AM (#2975764) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow The thing about the term "middle of the road" is that it implies moderation, and that's a false implication. The important thing is where the road is going. |
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30 Aug 10 - 01:51 PM (#2976025) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger McGrath, I heartily agree with your analysis of "middle-of-the-road". The old bromide is "everything in moderation including moderation". Where the road is going is exactly right. Q states: " The middle-of-the-roaders, mostly the middle class, are angry and looking for a solution for their decreasing expectations." I think this has always been true regardless of who is in power. I would take exception to the idea that the Tea Party represents so-called "middle-of-the-road" Americans. This remains to be seen at the next election, regardless of what Fox News says. The idea that all Islamists have an active enemy is no more true for Islam then it is for any other form of religion. The idea of an "enemy" is the problem of thought in the world. As long as you can objectify anyone as an "enemy", then you have dismissed them. It's a cop-out pseudo-solution. It is inconsistent to protest the building of a mosque and not a temple, cathedral, shrine, church or any other religious edifice. This protest runs contrary to the US Constitution. I have not seen evidence that all Islamists are extremists. The 911 connection is an excuse to vilify Islamists and not a valid reason to prohibit this mosque. BTW, Mr. Beck's and Palin's audiences are extremists. They feed on intolerance to make their case. |
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30 Aug 10 - 03:09 PM (#2976094) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) I agree completely with stringsingers comments about the mosque and freedom to build a religious edifice of any creed, so long as it is non-violent. The many Muslims in NY city have just as much right to their places of worship as do Episcopalians, Greek Orthodox or any other religious group. I am a non-believer, but I hope we all have equal rights. In the demonstration in Washington, most of the attendants were middle class, not extremists of any kind. They are unhappy, and Beck and Palin were a focus. That does not mean that those who gathered there, 300,000 at the minimum and from all parts of the country, will support the so-called 'tea party'. I do think most will vote Republican in the next election because of their dislike of current conditions, but they make up their own minds, and can be fickle. So far the tea party is not a party, and I doubt that it will ever be more than a focus for discontent. |
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30 Aug 10 - 03:29 PM (#2976110) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks 200...any more dead horses need beating? |
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30 Aug 10 - 03:48 PM (#2976129) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow "...most of the attendants were middle class, not extremists of any kind. Two statements there, not one - "middle class" and "not extremists of any kind". Both may well be true, but one doesn't follow from the other. "Middle class" extremism has historically been the most frightening extremism of all. |
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30 Aug 10 - 03:51 PM (#2976132) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. I hear from some of them, relatives and friends. Most are college graduates... They blame the [current] administration... and will vote for a change...people have always looked out for their own interests, and in the long run will not be convinced to vote against them. Sorry, Q, but this is errant nonsense; these can't be college graduates- they barely sound like they made it out of the 6th grade. They blame the current administration? If that isn't gross stupidity, nothing is. If these idiots & cretins intend to vote the current admin out & the Republicans back in - give the car keys back to the ones that put the car in the ditch in the first place - isn't that voting against their own interests with a vengeance? Or would you prefer shooting themselves in the foot? If this is really an accurate reflection of the level of intelligence and critical thinking ability of "middle America" there surelly ain't much hope for the country - emigrate now. PS: Suggestion: Get yourself some new friends, and if possible, relatives. |
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30 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM (#2976139) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. What the fu$k is an "Islamist" supposed to be? Is that something like a Christist? Christianist? Or a Jewisist? |
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30 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM (#2976165) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Hold on to your computer desk chairs.....for once, I agree with at least one of Obama's statements, during one of his flip flops! Yes, the Muslim's have a 'right' to build it, but the wisdom to to such, is certainly in question! No more on this silly distraction! Budget! Debt! Unemployment! Borders! Illegal drug cartels! Pakistan! Afghanistan! Iran nuclear violations! Israel's response! Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton's drug problems! GfS |
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30 Aug 10 - 05:04 PM (#2976192) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Get yourself some new friends...relatives. Well, Greg F certainly is one person I would never associate with. |
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30 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM (#2976227) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. S'matter Q - embarrass ya with a few facts? |
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30 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM (#2976245) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge Any rational person may change his or her mind when new evidence appears or even new arguments are voiced, if they are persuasive. Why in the USA it this caricatured as "flip-flopping"? Only the terminally stupid hold to a view in the face of evidence and logic. Perhaps that is the problem. |
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30 Aug 10 - 06:42 PM (#2976273) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Terminal stupidity PLUS unconquerable ignorance, Richard. Its becoming characteristic in the Land of the |
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30 Aug 10 - 07:47 PM (#2976329) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO Greg F asked: What the fu$k is an "Islamist" supposed to be? Is that something like a Christist? Christianist? Or a Jewisist? "Islamism", as I get it, is a Muslim religio/political position which wants Islamic law to run all governments, pretty much everywhere, and with a positive attitude toward doing so by force. That's not the same as "a Muslim". Many, many Muslims, both in the United States and elsewhere around the world, disapprove of Islamism as I've defined it. Greg, rather than "Jewisist", try the word "Zionist", or "Zionism" for a sort of parallel. This was, and I suppose one would say "is", a religio/political movement, heavily influenced by Communism or at least Socialism, and was a leading factor in the struggle to create Israel--not really typically for religious reasons. A large part of that movement's advocates were doctrinaire atheists, and as a movement had a positive attitude toward a violent revolutionary, terrorist approach to gain their ends. Any Muslims or Jews here who feel or think they know I'm wrong in the above paragraphs, feel free to correct what I've said. That's my understanding, in any event. Dave Oesterreich |
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30 Aug 10 - 08:07 PM (#2976343) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Slag Dear Desert Dancer, to many Americans, to MOST Americans there is nothing more sacred than money. It is THEE God of the financial world. Yes, the WTC site is "Holy Ground". Thank you Uncle DaveO for saving me from the explanation of adding "ist" to certain words. BTW, I wasn't kidding about allowing the Muslim Center ( or mosque ) to be built. As long as it isn't a front for terror-ist activities but legitimate worship and community activity it sounds like a plus to me, so put down those broad brushes, please. I'm also for the little Greek Orhtodox Church being rebuilt. And as for a memorial to those who died in that holocaust, let that also be built, protected and honored. New York is a big, big city on a comparatively little bit of land. You have neighbors of all sorts and strange pairings and juxtapositions of all kinds of enterprises. That is one of the things that makes cities, big cities so interesting. Let it be! All I said and all I was trying to do it get you all to look at the situation in another light. Would your opinions, prejudices or ideals allow you to see another situation with some similar features in the same light? |
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30 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM (#2976403) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief BTW, Mr. Beck's and Palin's audiences are extremists. They feed on intolerance to make their case. I'm not sure that "making their case" is what they're after. It's making their mint. They will use whatever "case" that is to hand, if it pushes the rabble to support them at the level they wish to become accustomed to. |
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30 Aug 10 - 10:52 PM (#2976407) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. OK, Dave- I'm with you now. "Islamists" being a tiny minority of the world's Muslim population, as opposed to the infinitely greater numbar of "Christian"[sic] fundagelical wackoes who want to impose "Christian" government in the U.S. and the rest of the globe and are more than willing to use violent terrorist means to secure Christian ascendency in a White Man's Country. I think I know which group is more dangerous. Yeah, Islamism is the ism dismallist of all (with apologies to the Chad Mitchell Trio - plus ca change...) |
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31 Aug 10 - 07:02 AM (#2976544) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow But remember those "fundagelical wackoes" are a tiny minority of the world's Christian population. So are Americans. |
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31 Aug 10 - 07:19 AM (#2976552) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Slag I'm sure glad nobody thinks of Greg F as a wackoe (potatoe?). Somebody has to be the paradigm for sane thinking. |
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31 Aug 10 - 09:06 AM (#2976617) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. those "fundagelical wackoes" are a tiny minority of the world's Christian population. Check your statistics, Kevin: substantial numbers and growing. The BNP, Neo-Nazis, KKK & the other white supremecist groups worldwide all claim to be proud "Christians"[sic]. Then there's the "Christians"[sic] merrily bombing family planning clinics & murdering doctors. Then there's the Oklahoma City bombing. Then there's the new Texas "history"[sic] curriculum, and the Arizona law banning "ethnic studies". Then there are the loonies foaming at the mouth on the streets of New York City. Etc. Etc. Proud "Christians"s[sic] all. |
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31 Aug 10 - 10:17 AM (#2976659) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow "substantial numbers" in the United States is still "a tiny minority" in the world. And I think you'd find the people you are talking about, Greg, are talking about are still outnumbered by other varieties of Christian, even in the United States, let alone elsewhere. |
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31 Aug 10 - 10:36 AM (#2976676) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow "substantial numbers" in the United States is still "a tiny minority" in the world. And I think you'd find the people you are talking about, Greg, are still outnumbered by other varieties of Christian, even in the United States, let alone elsewhere. |
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31 Aug 10 - 12:43 PM (#2976758) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert Seems that at least one Tailban leader has weighed on on this and says the controversy is being used for recruiting purposes... Way to go, Beck, et al... Now yer in cahoots with the Taliban... B~ |
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31 Aug 10 - 12:52 PM (#2976762) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Sayin' it twice, Kevin, don't make it so, and last I knew the BNP and/or neo-Nazis (among other international/European groups of similar ilk) didn't have much of a presence in the U.S. of A. |
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31 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM (#2977011) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Slag The fallacy which you use to paint all Christians as wackoes(sic) is that of attributing what may be true of the part to the whole, Greg F. It is a favorite tactic of those who are long on opinion and short on fact. Your focus is on a tiny, tiny minority of either dubious or non-existent religious affilliation and for whom a vast, and I mean vast majority of folks of the Christian faith would and do denounce and for whom they hold the same opinion as perhaps you do for those INDIVIDUALS who perpetrate crimes or openly display hatred for a group or minority, you know, kinda the same way you do toward Christians. |
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31 Aug 10 - 06:27 PM (#2977033) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger Many Christians, Jews and Muslims alike must realize that what they believe will not work for everyone. Sharia Law, Talmudic Law, Christian Dispensationalism,etc, are not applicable to everyone and when they become enforced on everyone, then they become tyrannical. Reasonable religious people understand this and obey their laws in accordance to their faith and not others. This central point is missing from the reactionary stance to the building of Park51. John Stewart did an excellent job exposing Talal, the Arabic financier of both the cultural center and Fox News (with Murdoch). The hypocrisy was made clear. It is a manufactured political time by Fox News and the Tea Party who are stirring up discontent for the next election. Dick Armey and Americans for Prosperity headed up by Art Pope, James C. Miller, James E. Stephenson, and Frayda Levy. These are the culpable ones who are stirring up the hatred for political reasons. People on Mudcat need to know who these behind-the-scenes players are and what their political agenda is. Unfortunately for Obama, the appear to be succeeding but they are the maggots under the rock and light has to be shone on them. |
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31 Aug 10 - 06:28 PM (#2977034) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Bobert As a Christain, my problem is with the Christain Right which has tried to promote itself as representing "Christains"... It doesn't but it ceratinly wrecked hovoc in alot of churches and drove lots of good, decent and caring Christain's outta lots of Christain churches... Worst part is that alot of the splittin' of churches came from very bad behavior of those on the right side of the divide... I mean, who wnats to go to chucrh to have some holier-than-thou political nutball scream at you... I watched the church I grew up in be taken over by idealoques who ran not only the minister but half the congregation with him... I was 18 and those memories will never, ever leave me... Reminds me of the town hall meetings last summer that were rudely interupted when moderate and soft-soken people wer bullied and shouted down... IM(most)HO, real Christains shouldn't act like that but, hey, people's Faith is a persoanl thing and so I'm not gonna say these rude folks are not of Faith... Just ain't the way Jesus would want people to behave in church... B~ |
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31 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM (#2977054) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. Where oh where, Slag ol' bud, did I say that ALL "Christians"[sic] were wackoes? Or are you just makin' this stuff up as you go along? And a vast, and I mean vast majority of folks of the Muslim faith would and do denounce those that you refer to as "Islamists"[sic]. |
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31 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM (#2977085) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow And the vast majority of Christians are not at all impressed by the antics of the "wackoes". |
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31 Aug 10 - 10:45 PM (#2977192) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing I found this interesting. From HERE: One of the nation's leading Mormon elected officials has cited the battle over a Mormon temple in Belmont in arguing that Muslims should be allowed to build a mosque near Ground Zero. Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican, said mosque proponents ''have every right'' to carry out their plans in New York, just as Mormons had a right to build their temple, despite neighborhood opposition. ''I have a tendency, when it comes to religious liberty issues, to always uphold the rights of legitimate churches and legitimate religious groups to be able to meet and to build their mosques or their chapels or their cathedrals on property they own, and I will fight for their right to do that,'' Hatch said, speaking to a FOX News reporter in Utah. |
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01 Sep 10 - 12:08 AM (#2977208) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Slag Amen! |
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01 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM (#2977413) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. And the vast majority of Christians are not at all impressed by the antics of the "wackoes". And that's a major part of the problem, Kevin. The "vast majority" - or should I say "silent majority"? - of "Christians"[sic], if they do indeed profess to follow the teachings of Christ, SHOULD be duly impressed by the antics of the wackoes and roundly and loudly condemn them at every opportunity. But they don't. Seems they could thus learn something from the vast majority of Muslims. |
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01 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM (#2977449) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow I suspect that a history of centuries of bloody sectarian conflict between Christians may sometimes make people reluctant to be too outspoken about other branches of Christianity, even where these are seen as deplorable. I suspect that the same kind of thinking may make many Muslims reluctant to speak out too openly about variants of their religion which are extreme, such as the relatively recent (200 years is recent in this context) development of Wahhabism, which seems to have been been the seed-bed of Jihadism. |
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01 Sep 10 - 09:51 AM (#2977463) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: bobad A liberal muslim perspective on the issue: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/struggle+against+jihad/3462217/story.html#ixzz0yAie1n1f |
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01 Sep 10 - 09:59 AM (#2977468) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. I suspect that a history of centuries of bloody sectarian conflict between Christians may sometimes make people reluctant to be too outspoken... While that may be an explanation, Kevin, in no way is it an excuse for their silence. |
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01 Sep 10 - 12:05 PM (#2977570) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Desert Dancer I found this reporting on overseas, Muslim perspective on what's going on here interesting: U.S. Culture Wars Matter in the Middle East, Too, it's subtitled, "Forget about the protests against the mosque near Ground Zero; the threat to burn the Quran on Sept. 11 is what could incite serious conflict in the Middle East." (Got to it via NPR posting it as "partner content".) The reporter, echoing comments that have arisen elsewhere (including the NYC taxi driver who was assaulted), says that many Muslims say, "if the location bothers people, put it somewhere else," no big deal. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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01 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM (#2977637) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow "if the location bothers people, put it somewhere else," Very much the same as "if sitting in the front of the bus annoys people, what's wrong with the back of the bus". In one sense perhaps sensible, location doesn't matter too much in absolute terms. But backing down in the face of bigotry damages a society very deeply. |
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01 Sep 10 - 02:39 PM (#2977712) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: dick greenhaus I'm dismayed--if not surprised--by the current wave of what I call Cafeteria Constitutionalists. It's there-and if someone wants to change it, there are provisions for doing so. But none of these include ignoring the parts you don't like at the moment. |
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01 Sep 10 - 02:48 PM (#2977725) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Don Firth Greg, liberal Christians are far from silent. What may create that impression is that the more rabid "fundevangelists" and their outrageous outbursts make much better news copy than the statements of people like the Rev. Jim Wallis (who has written several books on matters of social justice and religious freedom for all religions, and speaks all over the country) and a whole host of ministers and pastors who are speaking out constantly against the excesses of those who claim to be Christians while promulgating ideas that (according to the teachings of Jesus laid out in the Gospels, which is supposed to be the basis of Christianity) would have made Jesus very sad, if not downright furious. There are a half-dozen churches of various denominations within walking distance of where I live (a couple of Lutheran churches, Presbyterian, Baptist—yes, Baptist!—Methodist, and a very large Episcopal cathedral), and not one of them endorses what the fundevangelists are saying. They all speak out strongly against it. But as I say again: when the spittle-spraying hate-mongers shout outrages in the name of what they consider to be Christianity, it makes much better news copy. So that's what gets reported. Don Firth |
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01 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM (#2977766) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Desert Dancer I agree, McGrath, I think that's why Americans have spoken up. I just find it interesting that some Muslims within and outside the U.S. find the location issue relatively easy to concede. ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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01 Sep 10 - 04:53 PM (#2977843) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: McGrath of Harlow To everything there is a season And a time to every purpose, under Heaven Sometimes, reasonably enough people see survival as the priority, rather than justice. It must be a bit frightening to be a Muslim in America right now. |
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01 Sep 10 - 05:29 PM (#2977868) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: dick greenhaus As a reminder, Constitutional rights are not affected by popular opinion. |
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01 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM (#2977870) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Q (Frank Staplin) Fareed Zakaria, the Indian-American journalist who comments regularly on CNN, has returned the award he received from the Anti-Defamation League because of their opposition to the mosque near 'ground zero'. Illume, an Islamic news source online. Aug. 10, 2010, Carma Hassan. |
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01 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM (#2977875) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: mousethief Dick sez As a reminder, Constitutional rights are not affected by popular opinion. Or shouldn't be. |
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02 Sep 10 - 03:10 PM (#2978682) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Donuel After the November election the mosque can fade to obscurity again |
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02 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM (#2978789) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: katlaughing Here is what some American Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan have to say: Hi, Since the debate erupted, we've kept out of the argument over the planned Community Center for Muslims in Lower Manhattan (falsely called the "Ground Zero Mosque"). Initially, we believed this was a local issue for New Yorkers to discuss. But, we can no longer stay silent. We need your help. We're asking for you to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans who already signed an open letter to the developer of the site, Sharif El-Gamal, supporting his right to develop the site, and expressing the view that allowing his community center to move forward will be a powerful tool in defeating the same terrorists we fought against in war. There are two very important reasons we Iraq and Afghanistan veterans feel we must speak out. First and foremost, when we signed up for service, we swore to uphold the Constitution. For all the talk these days from some quarters about the importance of protecting the Constitution and allowing the free market to work unfettered, those same people are fighting against a person's right to buy property and worship freely. Our duty to protect the Constitution doesn't end when our service does. It's up to us to stand up for the right for all Americans to enjoy the Constitutional freedoms that so many around the world don't have. Secondly, allowing the Community Center to move forward will deal a blow to the propaganda of al Qaeda and Islamist extremists, who recruit on the talking point that the United States is in a war against Islam. Of course, we're not. But, if those forces of intolerance win, it will certainly appear that we are in a war against one religion—Islam. As Matthew Alexander, a former interrogator in Iraq, and VoteVets.org member wrote at the Huffington Post, "Imagine an al Qaeda recruiter attempting to sway a potential charge by citing an imaginary American war against Muslims but having to face the counterargument that Americans built a Muslim community center near the site of the former Twin Towers. The Cordoba House would be a powerful symbol of U.S. tolerance and freedom that will stand in direct contradiction to al Qaeda's narrative that Americans hate Muslims." That's the point. Defeating al Qaeda will take the use of force. But it will also take destroying their ability to recruit, and that means winning hearts and minds. As veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan know, having the people on your side is of utmost importance. CLICK HERE TO JOIN US IN PROTECTING THE CONSTITUTION AND AMERICA Please take a moment to click the link above to join Iraq and Afghanistan veterans in this open letter, supporting the right of Muslims to build a community center on property they lawfully bought. This is too important an issue for us to stay silent on any longer. Sincerely, Jon Soltz (Follow me on Twitter—@jonsoltz) Iraq War Veteran Chairman, VoteVets.org |
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02 Sep 10 - 05:34 PM (#2978813) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: gnu Q.... good for him. Fareed is one of the best journalists I have seen on TV. |
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11 Sep 10 - 05:32 PM (#2984735) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: bobad If the 'Mosque' Isn't Built, This Is No Longer America By Michael Moore OpenMike 9/11/10 Michael Moore's daily blog I am opposed to the building of the "mosque" two blocks from Ground Zero. I want it built on Ground Zero. Why? Because I believe in an America that protects those who are the victims of hate and prejudice. I believe in an America that says you have the right to worship whatever God you have, wherever you want to worship. And I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back. And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/if-mosque-isnt-built-no-longer-america |
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11 Sep 10 - 05:44 PM (#2984740) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: bobad I like this line from the link cited above: "There is a McDonald's two blocks from Ground Zero. Trust me, McDonald's has killed far more people than the terrorists." |
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11 Sep 10 - 05:50 PM (#2984745) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Amos Quotation of the Day "This country stands for the proposition that all men and women are created equal, that they have certain inalienable rights. And what that means is that if you could build a church on a site, you could build a synagogue on a site, if you could build a Hindu temple on a site, then you should be able to build a mosque on the site." PRESIDENT OBAMA, on religious tolerance. (NYT) |
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11 Sep 10 - 06:29 PM (#2984766) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Jeri I'm not sure I didn't sign the petition/letter thingie already. What I find remarkable is the way the military is often portrayed by right wing extremists. My opinion. When I was active duty: -We were not Democrat, Republican, or anything else; we were all of them. -We were not all the same race; there was no race of people on this earth that I didn't work with, or for, and people felt safe enough to talk about their opinions regarding race. Not so much discussion between individuals of different races in the civilian world. -We were not all the same religion; I worked with atheists, agnostics, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, and probably a load of others. People chose to talk about their religion or not. It had little to do with the job. I felt like I worked for Americans, and Americans look like your or I, or they don't. They are still Americans, and they have the same rights as all Americans. One of those is freedom of religion. A person in the military fights for those rights for EVERYBODY, not just the folks they like. |
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11 Sep 10 - 06:48 PM (#2984775) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks All very true, Jeri...and what I find even more depressing is that those who have never served so often portray people in the military as being right wing extremists. |
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11 Sep 10 - 11:12 PM (#2984868) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Sandy Mc Lean I strongly support the right to worship freely wherever and whenever you want. I also strongly support the right of anyone not to participate. Christianity has more than its share of idiotic leaders but I believe that they are greatly outnumbered by those preaching a message of love and peace. I am deeply offended when the former say I will go to Hell because I don't subscribe to their dogma. Likewise I find Muslim dogma offensive when it is in conflict of human or individual rights. Religious belief is all about personal choices that one makes as an individual. Christian religious leaders need to denounce the "born again" thinking and preaching of the wingnuts. Muslim leaders need to denounce both sharia law and the concept of jihad! Perhaps then we will be able to take larger steps towards living in peace and harmony! |
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12 Sep 10 - 05:18 AM (#2984950) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: kendall Facts. 1. Islam did not attack America 2.Iraq did not attack America. 3. Afghanistan did not attack America. Never underestimate the power of ignorant people in large numbers. |
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12 Sep 10 - 12:24 PM (#2985095) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,heric I agree with olddude, Michael Moore, Orrin Hatch, Mayor Bloomberg and the war vets. The Muslim center will be built. Muslims in America will continue to feel more accepted and participatory in the States than in other Western democracies. The American media will continue to foment excitement wherever they stupidly can. Freedom of speech and religion will continue to be protected to the continuing offense of some. Those closest to the horror will heal themselves of emotional trauma the rest of us cannot fully appreciate but should respect. |
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12 Sep 10 - 12:52 PM (#2985114) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger "Greg, rather than "Jewisist", try the word "Zionist", or "Zionism" for a sort of parallel. This was, and I suppose one would say "is", a religio/political movement, heavily influenced by Communism or at least Socialism, and was a leading factor in the struggle to create Israel--not really typically for religious reasons. A large part of that movement's advocates were doctrinaire atheists, and as a movement had a positive attitude toward a violent revolutionary, terrorist approach to gain their ends." Dave, I have to disagree with you here. Zionist is not atheist. Israel was conceived by scriptural injunction. And it was for religious reasons since Judaism is a religion. If it has been expanded to mean a culture, then it is a culture based on religion. I disagree that many of the movement's advocates were "doctrinaire atheists". This is an opinion and not a fact. Revolutionary or terrorist acts to gain an end is not the province of atheism but generally religious, Stalin, notwithstanding, who was not a true atheist but a ideological leader with early religious training. |
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13 Sep 10 - 11:22 AM (#2985757) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Sawzaw I think the Muslims have a right to build the cultural center. It is not a Mosque, as first characterized by the right wing talk shows. But now it has caught on and almost everyone is calling it a Mosque. Where are the spires and domes? How ever I believe it is poor judgment on the part of Muslims and it demonstrates the insensitivity of the Muslim faith as a whole. I says "we are better than you" but of course, every religion claims that over all other religions, they just don't usually stress it. The "Mosque" will always be a thorn in the ass of Americans and they don't seem to give a damn. As if they like being a thorn in somebody else's ass. When will Muslims wake up and discover they are really Jews and Christians? That's where they came from historically. That's where their roots are. |
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13 Sep 10 - 11:30 AM (#2985763) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks When will Muslims wake up and discover they are really Jews and Christians? And when will when will Christians wake up and discover they are really Jews? |
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13 Sep 10 - 12:37 PM (#2985827) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stu "The "Mosque" will always be a thorn in the ass of Americans and they don't seem to give a damn. As if they like being a thorn in somebody else's ass." Good lord - the USA is truly fucked if this attitude persists. I don't suppose you're quite as vocal about Americans being a thorn in the ass of the rest of the world? That's because most of them are ordinary people who want to get on with their lives and don't want people making a fuss about their personal choices when it comes to faith etc. Just like the huge majority of Muslims. "How ever I believe it is poor judgment on the part of Muslims and it demonstrates the insensitivity of the Muslim faith as a whole" Hmm, how about: "How ever I believe it is poor judgment on the part of Jews and it demonstrates the insensitivity of the Jewish faith as a whole." Any bells ringing yet? |
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13 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM (#2985878) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Greg F. And when will when will Christians wake up and discover they are really Jews? And when will fundagelicals wake up and discover they are really delusional ? |
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13 Sep 10 - 01:40 PM (#2985888) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Sawzaw And when will when will Christians wake up and discover they are really Jews? I have. "How ever I believe it is poor judgment on the part of Jews and it demonstrates the insensitivity of the Jewish faith as a whole." Does that mean there is a proposed synagogue in Mecca? |
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13 Sep 10 - 02:36 PM (#2985941) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stu Did you miss my point? "Does that mean there is a proposed synagogue in Mecca?" No, but here's a small hint as to why this problem has reached this state: synagogues in the West Bank. |
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13 Sep 10 - 03:00 PM (#2985957) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: beardedbruce "why this problem has reached this state: synagogues in the West Bank. " What about mosques in Israel? YOUR statement implies that ANY Palestinian state will be Jew-Free. Isn't that ethnic cleansing???? There were synagogues in the area of the West Bank BEFORE 1948. So YOU imply that Israel should bulldoze ALL mosques in Israel, I have to preseume from your comment. |
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13 Sep 10 - 03:09 PM (#2985962) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO Stringsinger, you will note that I closed with the following: Any Muslims or Jews here who feel or think they know I'm wrong in the above paragraphs, feel free to correct what I've said. That's my understanding, in any event. See below. And it is still my understanding that the Zionist movement was strongly disfavored in Orthodox circles, on the ground that the State of Israel could and should only come about on the return of the Meschiach; and that the hard core Zionist forces were heavily left, politically. And that there was a good-sized portion of the Zionist movement that was violence oriented. That was the source of the terrorist activities--widespread bombings and so forth, a la IRA--against the British in what became the State of Israel, before the British left when the UN declared the State of Israel, carrying out the Balfour policy. Dave Oesterreich |
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13 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM (#2986167) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Amos "Rallies of Misinformation In the months leading up to the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, conservatives, right-wing media, and Republican lawmakers have led a campaign of misinformation, paranoia, fear, and anger toward Muslims, sparked by the recent hysteria over a hate pastor's plan to burn the Quran (which he thankfully never carried out) and outrage over an organization's plan to build a mosque and Islamic community center near Ground Zero in Manhattan. A recent Washington Post poll found that a plurality of Americans now have an unfavorable view of Islam, "the most negative split on the question" since Oct. 2001. Commemorating the 9/11 attacks, President Obama urged tolerance toward Muslims. "As Americans we are not -- and never will be -- at war with Islam," he said. "It was not a religion that attacked us that September day -- it was al Qaida, a sorry band of men which perverts religion." Yet rhetoric from conservatives who gathered this weekend in New York City to protest the Park51 community center, and in Washington, D.C. for the Tea Party "9/12" rally was steeped in Islamophobia and general misinformation about the President, leading Democrats, and their policies. 'NO MOSQUE HERE': The Stop Islamization of America-sponsored rally near Ground Zero in Manhattan against the Park51 Islamic cultural center drummed up fears of Sharia law in America with regular "no mosque here" chants from the Tea Party-esque crowd. As the Wonk Room's Matt Duss noted, the event stirred "together half-truths with outright falsehoods into a stew of anti-Muslim paranoia." Speaking at the event, GOP House candidate Ilario Pantano attempted to instill fears that Park51 project leader Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, along with Iran, was responsible for the Gaza aid flotilla this summer that resulted in the killing of nine Turks -- including one Turkish American -- by Israeli commandos. And the event's headline speaker, right-wing Dutch politician Geert Welders -- who once called Islam "the ideology of a retarded culture" -- falsely claimed that the Park51 center would be "a house of Sharia" and that Rauf "refuses to condemn terrorists." In dozens of interviews with The Progress Report, attendees at the protest espoused similar views. "It's going to be a Sharia law mosque. They believe in the jihad," one woman from Long Island said. Another woman associated with the American Congress for Truth said Rauf is "building sharia on Ground Zero." Echoing former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, one man -- not seeming to recognize the freedoms bestowed on the U.S. as opposed to other countries -- said, "When they build a church in Saudi Arabia then they can build a mosque" near Ground Zero. Many attendees said that Rauf and his organization wanted to build a mosque near Ground Zero because that's what Muslims do after a victory in battle -- a notion propagated recently by Fox News, and by hate radio hosts Micheal Savage and Rush Limbaugh. "History shows us that they do build where they have conquered," one woman said. When asked how she knew this, she replied, "On many different shows. ... We have historians in our family and they said if you were to research that, that that would right. I don't know personally myself, I haven't seen them but they say in history, that's what they have done." THE TEA PARTY IN D.C.: Tea Party members from all over the country gathered on the Mall in Washington, D.C. for their second annual FreedomWorks-sponsored "9/12" rally to protest against President Obama and his purported "socialist cronies." Many attendees at the 9/12 rally appeared to represent the nearly 20 percent of Americans who believe that Obama is a Muslim. "None of the crowd members I talked to would say that Obama was either Christian or a U.S. citizen (the best I got was 'only God knows what's in his heart,' from a nice woman from Ohio)," reported TPM's Evan McMorris-Santoro. The rest of the rally -- which was considerably smaller in size when compared to last year's event -- consisted of ridiculing taxes and spending and heralding the Constitution with "God repeatedly placed firmly on the conservative side of the political spectrum by speakers and audience members alike." SIGNS OF INTOLERANCE: Apart from the divisive and misinformed rhetoric that took place at these rallies, attendees often displayed signs, banners, and other placards displaying symbols and inscriptions of hatred and intolerance. At the 9/12 rally, one attendee held a sign that said "Obama wants to ban pork!" presumably a reference to the false claim that he is a Muslim. Another sign depicted Obama as both a Nazi and a communist while another associated members of Congress with rodents. One man carried a sign that said "Obama, the terrorist from within." One banner at the New York rally read that the Park51 center is "the monument to terrorism," while another sign read "no Muslim integration." Many protesters carried small pieces of cardboard that read "No Obama's Mosque." One placard portrayed a cartoonish image of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and read: "'Sharia' Pelosi. Implant A Tongue Depressor -- Wire Her Jaw." Others wore t-shirts with an image of an airplane flying into the World Trade Center with the words, "They will teach" imprinted on them. Indeed, one observer at the anti-mosque rally in New York noticed the signs and rhetoric of hatred and intolerance, telling The Progress Report, "It's so emotional here. It's really aggressive...it's all fear and it's all anger, and it just makes me cry. ... What is wrong with a mosque? It's just the same, it's a great religion just as all the others." " (Progressive newsletter) |
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13 Sep 10 - 08:34 PM (#2986184) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Two things spring to mind here. I would pose these two questions:- 1. Do Americans truly believe in free speech, and freedom of religious worship? 2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, how many people would be bothered to the point of protest, should the church in which Timothy McVeigh worships, choose to open a branch in the centre of Oklahoma City? Unless the answer to question 2 is NO, there is a serious problem with hypocracy in the US of A. |
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13 Sep 10 - 09:59 PM (#2986233) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: artbrooks How can you answer a question framed as "how many..." with no? |
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13 Sep 10 - 10:39 PM (#2986248) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST,heric Yeah that little test is a real mind-bender. |
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14 Sep 10 - 03:15 AM (#2986349) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Richard Bridge I quite like the coinage "hypocracy". Is that the government of the hypocritical, by the hypocritical, for the hypocritical? Nonetheless, I agree with the thrust of what Don says. Unless and until there is no substantial number of US citizens who would treat Muslim people (or Muslim owned or built buildings) differently from Christian people (etc) or Jewish people (etc) then the freedom of religion under the US constitution is illusory. However, unless and until religions cease to promote the making of laws applicable under civil jurisprudence based on their religious beliefs there is no true separation of church and state. In the UK perhaps the most dangerous example of this is the apparent complacency in the face of the undermining of individuals' legal rights by Sharia law, but in the USA my unscientific belief is that proposals from right-wing fundagelical "christians" are a greater present threat. |
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14 Sep 10 - 03:24 AM (#2986356) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Keith A of Hertford This is a unique, one off, extreme circumstance. Other than this , are there any other instances of religious discrimination in US? |
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14 Sep 10 - 04:13 AM (#2986376) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stu "So YOU imply that Israel should bulldoze ALL mosques in Israel, I have to preseume from your comment." You presume very wrong indeed, and have obviously missed my point completely. "This is a unique, one off, extreme circumstance. Other than this , are there any other instances of religious discrimination in US?" There most certainly are. |
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14 Sep 10 - 10:37 AM (#2986579) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO "This is a unique, one off, extreme circumstance. Other than this , are there any other instances of religious discrimination in US?" This morning (Tuesday 9/14) I heard a news item on NPR that some small (40,000 population) city in the West (I forget the city and state) is being sued because they prohibited the opening of a Buddhist center or temple. About the same time they had allowed the building of a Catholic church in the same vicinity. q.e.d. Dave Oesterreich |
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14 Sep 10 - 11:33 AM (#2986624) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: pdq ...how many people would be bothered to the point of protest, should the church in which Timothy McVeigh worships, choose to open a branch in the centre of Oklahoma City? Timothy McVeigh is not worshiping in any Church here on Earth since we, the people of the great United States of America, executed him. |
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14 Sep 10 - 01:01 PM (#2986680) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger The issue of "Church and State" is fundamental to the acceptance of the US Constitution. Without it, democracy ceases to be. If one religion is allowed to dominate or to take precedence over another, then that is a theocracy as they have in other countries. The reaction of those who are opposed to the construction of the Center could be classified by polling statistics as the "tyranny of the majority" which runs counter to protections in the Constitution. Their reactionary stance can't prevail under a democracy. Most of the people who were polled as was stated by the Imam who wants to build the Center were those who just wanted the problem to go away without facing the issue. There was plenty of evidence as has been shown above that religion has caused certain groups to demonize those who don't belong. Newt Gingrich is not new. The "No-Nothings"demonized Catholics in the early part of US history. The so-called "Christians" demonizedNative Americans and either exterminated them or put them on uninhabitable reservations. Slavery was given a biblical basis. Freedom of religion, however, also requires freedom from religion in a viable democracy. It doesn't impinge on my rights to reject religion to build this Muslim Center. I agree with Micheal Moore in that it ought probably to be built on so-called "Ground Zero" which is as stated above, a misnomer having to do with the center of a nuclear explosion. There is a chance of irony, here, though, if it ever comes out that the WTC was imploded by explosives. Although many have tried to debunk this idea, not enough information was provided to completely discount this idea. But that's a thread creep. |
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14 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM (#2986847) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO I've been noticing several references to the Constitution and American society in this and other threads. I've excerpted a few, set out below, and I want to respond, not so much to intent of the posters as to the way in which they lay their arguments out. I'll number the quoted portions, for easier reference. 1. Stringsinger said: The reaction of those who are opposed to the construction of the Center could be classified by polling statistics as the "tyranny of the majority" which runs counter to protections in the Constitution. 2. And elsewhere Richard Bridge said Anyone who assumes that all Muslims are the same or that all must be penalised for the sins of the few (a few who appear wholly to have misinterpreted the meaning of the word "jihad") despite the US's constitutional "freedom of religion" is a bigot. 3. Bobert said, in an omnibus reply to other posts: Me thinks that alot of fols do not understand what the Constituion is all about... (No, Boberdz... It's about guns...) My poin exactly.... So we've come to a point where people get to pick and choose what parts of the Constitution are meaningfull??? 4. And Stringsinger again: It is inconsistent to protest the building of a mosque and not a temple, cathedral, shrine, church or any other religious edifice. This protest runs contrary to the US Constitution. 5. And Richard Bridge later said, in part: Unless and until there is no substantial number of US citizens who would treat Muslim people (or Muslim owned or built buildings) differently from Christian people (etc) or Jewish people (etc) then the freedom of religion under the US constitution is illusory. 6. And Stringsinger said, very recently: The issue of "Church and State" is fundamental to the acceptance of the US Constitution. That sampling of portions of posts displays, on the part of those posters and probably many others, a misunderstanding of what the Constitution is. The Constitution of the United States is not a sketch of how our society should be, or what our ethical positions should be, or how we as Americans should treat each other. The Constitution is intended as a framework or blueprint of how the United States government is to be organized and run. Take quote number 1. The Constitution doesn't and can't control what the majority does, tyrannical or otherwise. Congress may pass laws that bear on that under the police power, but that's not the Constitution. Quote number 2. Contrary to popular usage, the Constitution doesn't provide freedom of religion as a general societal matter. The Constitution controls what Congress may or may not do with its legislative powers, on the subject of religious practice. Quote number 3. The first quoted paragraph of Number 3 is correct, in the words used, at least. That's exactly what I'm saying: A lot of folks don't understand what the Constitution is all about. I can't speak for Bobert, though, and say that he meant the same thing that I'm expounding here. Quote number 4. "This protest" (whatever that refers to) does not run counter to the U.S. Constitution. It is the action of nongovernmental forces, and is not controlled or even referred to by the Constitution. Quote number 5. First, the standard seemingly advocated by that quote is impossible to meet in ANY society; there's never going to be unanimity. And even if the standard could theoretically be met, the Constitution neither purports to nor attempts to guarantee freedom of religion, except as one attempts to read the minds of the framers as to why "Congress shall make no law" regarding establishment of religion. It's been a while since I last read the Constitution, but I believe it never uses the words "freedom of religion". Freedom of religion is not a governmental function. Quote number 6. Frankly, number 6 is not at all clear. "The issue of 'Church and State' is fundamental to the acceptance of the US Constitution." "The issue *** is fundamental" is vague; "the issue" is merely laying a groundwork for a discussion, not deciding what resolution is to be made of it. And "fundamental to the acceptance"? The Constitution was accepted a long time ago, in, what, 1789? If Number 6 refers to anyone or any government outside of the United State granting acceptance of the US Constitution, it is presumptuous. And if, on the other hand, it refers to the thinking of all US citizens, not only is unanimity impossible, but the Constitution is a rather complicated set of rules for government, and no one proposition (or "issue") rises to a level which automatically calls for acceptance or nonacceptance of the whole thing by Americans. I don't want anyone to think that I'm disagreeing with any of the posters of 1 through 6 as to desirable societal goals or actions. In fact I suspect that those writers and I are in close agreement on the principles involved. I merely assert that unless an action of government as to (in this case) the Islamic Center and Ground Zero (whatever that is) is involved, the Constitution should be left out of the discussion, because its invocation merely fuzzes up the issue. End of rant. Dave Oesterreich |
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14 Sep 10 - 10:48 PM (#2986956) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Donuel Important Tomas Freidman of the NYT decided to research the issue of a Mosque at the World Trade Center and discovered that the North Tower in fact had a prayer Mosque. He also learned that the South Tower had a less formal Muslim Prayer room outside the 'Window on the World' Restaurant on the 100th floor stairwell. It seems that there is some tiny fragment of a Mosque that is still lies beneath ground Zero even if it only a fraction of a gram. If this is too close for the remnent of the original WTC Mosque to be from ground zero I suggest you move ground zero. All of this is mearely an intentional political ply to divide and conquer the populist movement in America by the age old means of Reigious Intolerence by any means possible. |
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14 Sep 10 - 11:35 PM (#2986972) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Sawzaw Amos the factual, the bringer of truth, the fair and balanced: "conservatives, right-wing media, and Republican lawmakers have led a campaign of misinformation, paranoia, fear, and anger toward Muslims," New York Democrats are quickly declaring opposition to the GZ mosque. Rep. Michael Arcuri (D., N.Y.) said in a statement: "The pain felt by many Americans from the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is still very real, and I can understand how the thought of building a mosque near Ground Zero could reopen those wounds. For the sake of the victims and their families, I think another location should be chosen." Arcuri saw the obvious — encouraging the choice of another location does not entail a violation of First Amendment rights or freedom of religion. This was the theme for a deluge of Democratic representatives from the Empire State. Rep. Mike McMahon issued an eloquent statement. A highlight: "This is not the first time that the construction of a house of worship at a sensitive site has been questioned and opposed… Muslim Americans deserve the right to practice their faith – as we all do. I believe a new location is the right compromise so that Muslim Americans can worship … while the families of 9/11 victims obtain the peace of mind they deserve." And Rep. Steve Israel: "While they have a constitutional right to build the mosque, it would be better if they had demonstrated more sensitivity to the families of 9/11 victims. I urge them to do so before proceeding further." And Rep. Tim Bishop: "Ground Zero is sacred ground and should unite us. If the group seeking to build the mosque is sincere in its efforts to bring people together, I would urge them to seek an alternative location which is less divisive. I dispute the wisdom of building at that location, not the constitutional right." They were contradicted by one fellow New York Democrat. According to Rep. Anthony Weiner, for a "member of Congress [to be] weighing in on this stuff" would be a "violation of the clear separation of church and state." As the New York Post replied, "Huh?" If Weiner still believes that, when will he condemn his fellow Dems for clear violations of our founding principles? That brings the tally of Democrats opposing the Ground Zero mosque to at least five congressmen (the New Yorkers plus Altmire), one Senate majority leader, and 54 percent of their own voters. |
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15 Sep 10 - 04:00 AM (#2987032) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stu " He also learned that the South Tower had a less formal Muslim Prayer room outside the 'Window on the World' Restaurant on the 100th floor stairwell." Windows on the World (and The Greatest Bar on Earth) were on the 107th floor of the North Tower. I know because I was dining there a week before the attack. |
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15 Sep 10 - 12:56 PM (#2987335) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Stringsinger Uncle Dave, I humbly disagree. "Take quote number 1. The Constitution doesn't and can't control what the majority does, tyrannical or otherwise. Congress may pass laws that bear on that under the police power, but that's not the Constitution." The intent of the Constitution historically is that the "tyranny of the minority" was an important issue in its construction. Remember that the drafters of the Constitution were in fact worried about the populace behaving in such a way to over run the effects of the Constitutional principles. "Quote number 2. Contrary to popular usage, the Constitution doesn't provide freedom of religion as a general societal matter. The Constitution controls what Congress may or may not do with its legislative powers, on the subject of religious practice." Yes, but this does impinge on the rights of freedom of religion. And you see that today that this Constitutional injunction is being violated which then vitiates your argument. For example, the enforced "National Day of Prayer". "Quote number 3. The first quoted paragraph of Number 3 is correct, in the words used, at least. That's exactly what I'm saying: A lot of folks don't understand what the Constitution is all about. I can't speak for Bobert, though, and say that he meant the same thing that I'm expounding here." There is no clear-cut interpretation of the document called the Constitution that can be agreed upon. A lot of what it states is open to interpretation and that is why we have legal means to attempt to enforce an interpretation. |
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15 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM (#2987446) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: Uncle_DaveO Stringsinger replied to my last post thusly, in part: "Take quote number 1. *** "The intent of the Constitution historically is that the "tyranny of the minority" was an important issue in its construction." Ahh, but there's the rub, "intent". The Constitution is objective in its prescriptions for the shape of government in the United States, and that is binding. The framers' intent or desires are not. As a matter of fact, I think you and I are in agreement that that was much of the framers' desire, and they tried to set up rules, procedures, governmental standards which would minimize any tendency toward tyranny of the majority which might be expressed through the government; and further we can I think agree that that concern and that effort were well justified. But their reasons and motivations are not the Constitution. I said, "Quote number 2. Contrary to popular usage, the Constitution doesn't provide freedom of religion as a general societal matter. The Constitution controls what Congress may or may not do with its legislative powers, on the subject of religious practice." You said, "Yes, but this does impinge on the rights of freedom of religion." The Constitution does not grant "freedom of religion" as a right; it prohibits certain types of actions by the government it was setting up, with a motivation toward making the choice and the practice of religion open and fluid. But the framers' motivations, hopes, and preferences are not the Constitution, and are not enforceable legally. Whereas the specifics of the Constitution are. "And you see that today that this Constitutional injunction is being violated which then vitiates your argument. For example, the enforced "National Day of Prayer". Two comments about that: What "enforced 'National Day of Prayer'" is that? I know of no such thing. I have heard that expression, but who is forced to observe such a day? And who enforces it? Second comment: The fact, (even if it is a fact, which I dispute) that the Constitutional provision is (if it is) violated doesn't affect what the Constitution provides. It only demonstrates that officials and citizens don't allow themselves to be guided by the clear language set out in the Constitution. If I rob a bank (even if I'm not caught and prosecuted), does that somehow vitiate the anti-bank-robbery laws? No, it doesn't. This whole conversation we're having deals with the different meanings of the word "law". There are scientific or physical laws, of course, which are merely better or worse descriptions of how the world is thought to operate. Then there are what might be called moral or ethical laws, giving rise to moral or ethical "rights", which are not legally enforceable. And then there are statutory laws, which set out standards of privilege and prohibition for persons, corporations, etc., enforceable in a court of law. And at the top of the heap, legally, is the Constitution, which sets out standards of privilege and prohibition for the Government. The activities of that crowd or mob at the site of the proposed Islamic Center and "anti-GZ-mosque pressure" may be seen as reprehensible and against what we see as "the intent" or spirit we like to see as consistent with the motivations of the Constitution's framers, but are not in themselves covered by anything in the Constitution, unless there is governmental action taken. THAT ACTION, if taken, would probably be unconstitutional. But the actions and statements of members of the public are not so covered. Dave Oesterreich |
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15 Sep 10 - 08:41 PM (#2987666) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST, heric I sure liked that last one (but of course that's because I agree.) As bizarre as it may sound, I actually see this as part of the cacophony of American democracy (displeasing or offensive perhaps and yet beneficial). People yell and scream and yet the government won't interfere with that Muslim community center, because they can't. Yelling and screaming may influence policy on many matters -- but up to a limit. And here what some (how many?) people want is over the line. |
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16 Sep 10 - 01:11 PM (#2988069) Subject: RE: BS: Islamic cultural centre near ground zero From: GUEST, heric So the politicians making pronouncements (with the possible exception of Bloomberg, holding some powers to take (erroneous) actions if he were inclined), are all just pissing in the wind, hoping they chose the best direction. |
