BS: Burning Korans

07 Sep 10 - 05:45 PM (#2981826)
Subject: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

US church defiant despite condemnation of Koran burning
"Terry Jones Terry Jones said he had prayed over the matter but insisted the Koran-burning would go ahead

A small US church says it will defy international condemnation and go ahead with plans to burn copies of the Koran on the 9/11 anniversary.

The top US commander in Afghanistan warned troops' lives would be in danger if the Dove World Outreach Center in Florida went through with the plan.

Muslim countries, the US government and Nato have also hit out at the plan.

But organiser, Pastor Terry Jones said: "We must send a clear message to the radical element of Islam."

I'm speechless. How in hell can we send a clear message tto the radical element of Florida Christianity?

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07 Sep 10 - 05:51 PM (#2981833)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amergin

Maybe we should hold bible burning rallies....

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07 Sep 10 - 05:56 PM (#2981836)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Tangledwood

It sounds as if a pastor burning rally would get closer to the source of the problem.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:03 PM (#2981840)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Only by going to the Dove Center in Gainesville and shaking some sense into the guy. Or giving him a hotfoot.

Extract from their "About Us."
"We need to speak up against sin and call the people to repentence. Abortion is murder. Homosexuality is sin. We need to call these things what they are and bring the world the true message: that Jesus is the way...............
"Any religion which would profess anything other than this truth is of the devil. This is why we also take a stand against Islam, which teaches that Jesus is not the Son of God, therefore taking away the saving power of Jesus Christ and leading people straight to Hell. ......."

Islam Is of the Devil, the new book by Dr. Terry Jopnes, is available now !
"Order your copy at IslamIsOfTheDevil.com "
http://www.doveworld.org/about-us

Canada has a hate law, unfortunately the U. S. does not.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:11 PM (#2981847)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall

How do these mental cases get where they are?

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07 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM (#2981849)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beeliner

Canada has a hate law, unfortunately the U. S. does not.

Well, I dunno about that, to formulate such a law in the USA without encroaching on free speech would be tricky.

ANY kind of book burning is extremely stupid in the light of that practice's history.

I can't imagine any worse way, short of physical violence, to protest anything.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:14 PM (#2981850)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"How in hell can we send a clear message to the radical element of Florida Christianity?"

Perhaps Mr Winchester can help.... no - we can't, cause then we are no different ....

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07 Sep 10 - 06:16 PM (#2981853)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"How do these mental cases get where they are? "

AS log as 'Religion' is treated differently from any other field of endeavor, we have to tolerate, nay, even protect these sorts of nutcases ... for 'religion' is better than all the rest of us, so we are told ....

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07 Sep 10 - 06:16 PM (#2981854)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: EBarnacle

If there were such a thing as killing fools before they were of an age to reproduce, there would be no next generation.

In common with other bigots, he cannot see beyond the end of his nose to the consequences of his actions. What he sees is a group of militants and believes they are representative of all Muslims. The
Islamic radicals will take his actions as typical of all Christians, Evangelistic or otherwise and use this as a recruiting tool.

Of such things are crusades/jihads born or extended.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:30 PM (#2981863)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"If there were such a thing as killing fools before they were of an age to reproduce, there would be no next generation."

Aren't I lucky then? :-)

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07 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM (#2981865)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

How in hell can we send a clear message tto the radical element of Florida Christianity?

Exactly my thought, Dick, when I heard the story on NPR.

This is why we also take a stand against Islam, which teaches that Jesus is not the Son of God, therefore taking away the saving power of Jesus Christ and leading people straight to Hell. ......."

He sure isn't giving Jesus much credit for being all-powerful, is he? Just the teachings of Islam take it all away? I guess the pastor won't be saved if he really believes that!

Reminds me of one of my fav. bumper stickers: Click Here.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:46 PM (#2981871)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Leadfingers

The Mind Boggles !!

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07 Sep 10 - 06:47 PM (#2981873)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

Yet more fundagelical bigoted cretin "christians"[sic].

Lets see the "mainstream" "christians"[sic] come out & condemn these jackasses. (PS: Don't hold your breath)

So ya say Islam is the major threat to the U.S.? Gimmie them over these "christians"[sic] any day.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:48 PM (#2981874)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Rapparee

I swear I thought this said "Burning Koreans."

Maybe the pastor is just looking for publicity. He's found it, at the expense (again!) of the US, NATO, Western Europe, and Christianity.

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07 Sep 10 - 06:50 PM (#2981876)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu

That is one sick puupy!

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07 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM (#2981882)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bill D

It is idiocy and provocation of the worst sort to engage in burning sacred texts of ANYONE's religion.... and in this case it is doubly stupid.

I suspect this guy and his 'followers' INTEND to foment trouble and hope that stirring up a hornet's nest will give someone an excuse to wipe out hornets.

I hope someone can talk whack some sense in them before it's too late.

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07 Sep 10 - 07:12 PM (#2981892)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Joe Offer

I have mixed feelings on this. I've read that "Pastor" Terry Jones leads a flock of fewer than 50 people, so maybe the best thing we can do is not give him the publicity that may swell his church to thousands.
On the other hand, it's clear that the US and Europe are rife with anti-Islamic bigotry and Jones is only the tip of the iceberg, so maybe it IS important to give a clear demonstration of sympathy and respect for Islam.

-Joe-

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07 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM (#2981895)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

GregF, it's good to believe in the good of some people:

Counterprotests are planned across the street from the church during the burning. In addition, the Gainesville Interfaith Forum is organizing a "Gathering for Peace, Understanding, and Hope." That event is set for Sept. 10, Friday night, and is open to Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and all others.

"The message I'm getting is that the vast, vast, vast majority of people believe that we can all get along," says Dan Johnson, minister at Trinity United Methodist Church, where the gathering will be held. He said he's receiving supportive e-mails from across the country.

Dr. Johnson said the centerpiece of the gathering will be loaves of bread from around the world.

Amergin, someone has started just that on Facebook...a call for bible burning...which won't prove a thing. I don't think this is one time where one should fight fire with fire, pun intended.

Gen. Patraeus is warning this idiot will put our troops in greater jeopardy if he does this. The idiot has been refused a burning permit, but vows to carry on. I hope a BIG firetruck aims a great big stream from a giant hose all over him and his fire! It's incredible one little pissant like this can cause such an uproar throughout the world and potentially cause so much strife. What a sick bastard. May his god bless and wake him up!

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07 Sep 10 - 07:18 PM (#2981898)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,David E.

Somewhere out there in this big mad world of ours, someone, at this very moment, is doing something loving and sacrificial for someone in need in the name of Jesus. Not that you'd ever know about it. But let one fool who claims to be speaking for Christians say or do something idiotic and the media are all over it. Shame on Terry Jones and shame on the media for giving him an audience.

David E.

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07 Sep 10 - 07:29 PM (#2981907)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall

As far as I can see, all religions are nothing but superstition based on fear, ignorance and ego. All are tarred with the same brush. Their main function is to keep the masses in line with threats of hell and damnation. Rubbish.

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07 Sep 10 - 07:38 PM (#2981909)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bobert

The problem here is that no one with any stature has ever stood up to the extreme elements of the Christain Right... I mean, folks like Billy Graham or even Charles Stanley... This is where the "parenting" went wrong and now the loonie Christain Right thinks (bad word) that anything goes... They are some very misguided people who have never been called to the carpet for stuff like killin' abortion doctors... That is very messed up and now we'd had about 2 decades of some very un-Christain behaviors that were allowed a "pass" and it's kinda too late...

But the same stuff is happening all over America... I mean, people going to town meetings with the intent of shouting down and bullying other folks who might have come to the meetings with real concerns and questions... I mean, like the guy with the gun at the Obama rally... I mean, like yelling "hang him" or "kill him" about Obama when Sarah Palin addressed crowds...

So, it's no wonder that this guy isn't the least bit concerned about retaliation on our service men and women in harms way on Afganistan... He really doesn't give a flin' fuck about these people... Truth be known, down inside his twisted little mind he hopes every day that things will go terribly wrong in Afganistan because he hates Obama and thinks it will hurt Obama???

But we have alot of that thinkin' in America these days... Lotta folks want the country to fail 'cuase they hate 1. A Dem in the White House and 2. they hate a black man in the White House... To these folks there's a reason they call it the "White" House...

Shame on out country for allowing such bad behavior on the right go unpunished and now it's way too late... We are a much less civil society having let these loonies, like spoiled children, do whatever they please...

It's out of control...

B~

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07 Sep 10 - 07:59 PM (#2981930)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

IMO they have the right to burn them- as the Afghans have the right to burn bibles. But I do not think it to be a wise move.

But just consider ANY action proposed against this group as if we were to apply it to those who burn bibles. Would you object in that case?


What about those who burn flags?

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07 Sep 10 - 08:07 PM (#2981934)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bill D

If they go thru with this stupid act, I hope NO news media takes video that can be used in Afghanistan

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07 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM (#2981936)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bobert

Flag burnin'??? Man, them were the good ol' days... Good music..l. Good drugs... Good sex... Yeah, the 60s were somethin' else but...

...sniff... Them days are gone and folks don't burn flags anymore... Might of fact, I can't remember the last Bible burnin' either... Not that I miss Bible burnin's though must admit to not knowing that these things ever happened in this country... I donno... Maybe people did... Not people I knew, if it did happen...

But I agree with bruce... May not be the wisest thinng to do, especially if there is a major retaliation where some of our service people are killed...

B~

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07 Sep 10 - 08:09 PM (#2981938)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

One would sincerely hope that the Muslims will see this for what it is and NOT retaliate. The Qur'ân is a text of peace and I truly hope that the Muslims will not hold Americans responsible for this stupid and offensive stunt. I well imagine to Islam that this is a terrible terrible insult and find it more than offensive myself

Surely there is some law that can stop this going ahead? Is the man mentally ill or plain evil to want to do such a thing by showing no respect for his religion, consequently Christ's message of Peace and Forgiveness, no thought to the potential (almost certain) consequences of such a crass act.

Let us all hope this does not come to fruition

mp

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07 Sep 10 - 08:12 PM (#2981941)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

He probably thinks it's a good idea, like those building a new Islamic center in NYC- the have the RIGHT, but it would be better if they did not.


I fear the laws that would enforce respect far more than the actions I disaproove of.

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07 Sep 10 - 08:18 PM (#2981945)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu

``I fear the laws that would enforce respect far more than the actions I disaproove of.``

Indeed. Freedom first.

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07 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM (#2981950)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Beer

David E. "Shame on Terry Jones and shame on the media for giving him an audience".
I completely agree.

I know it won't happen as it would cause to much of an up-roar, but I wish that your President would step in and just say that this is wrong and I will not let it take place. He is the commander in charge. This is totally totally wrong.
Ad.

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07 Sep 10 - 08:27 PM (#2981953)
Subject: SAVE A LIFE - BUY A BOOK
From: Donuel

The preacher says he is listening to God and praying everyday about their book burning.

LETS SPEAK FOR GOD -
AND OFFER 1,000 DOLLARS PER BOOK THEY DO NOT BURN AND A BONUS for not burning a single book.

We have been buying off morons in the middle east for 60 years.
Its time we buy off morons* in this country.


* this includes mormons like Beck.

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07 Sep 10 - 08:29 PM (#2981958)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

Actually, Glenn Beck has condemned the plan. Haven't read anything bout Limpaugh or Hannity.

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07 Sep 10 - 08:41 PM (#2981965)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

Glen should put his money where his mouth is and shove it up his ass.

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07 Sep 10 - 09:07 PM (#2981985)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Terry Jones crosses swords with nearly everybody in Gainesville (pop. about 260,000).
The mayor, Craig Lowe, is openly gay.
Some two dozen churches in Gainesville are planning events, including readings from the Qu'ran at their weekend services.
The Fire Department has refused to give Terry Jones a burn permit.

Jones says he has received death threats and has strapped a .40 caliber pistol to his hip.
Reports from the Gainesville Times and Gainesville Sun.

Gainesville has at least one Islamic Center.
The University of Florida, Gainesville, some 50,000 students on campus, has a football game the same day as the proposed book burning.

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07 Sep 10 - 09:41 PM (#2982000)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Rapparee

So let him do it, then slap him with a citation for burning without a permit.

As for burning the US flag, same deal. Cite them for illegal burning. Or just tell them that they can burn away -- in front of the police or fire stations, any Armed Forces recruiting station, the local National Guard or Reserve Armory, the American Legion Hall....

These idiots are just like that bunch in Westport, KS that go to military funerals.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. And you know what they say about opinions....

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07 Sep 10 - 09:42 PM (#2982001)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

Here is what appears to be his final view of the matter:

"Let's just make one thing clear. A small church, in a small town, down a back road, burning copies of its own books, on its own property, is not responsible for the violent actions anyone may take in retaliation to our protest. Remember, Paul did not make the snake, the fire drove it out and he was bitten. If violence happens in reaction to this, the violence was not caused by us, it has just been exposed."
http://www.doveworld.org/blog/5-more-reasons-to-burn-the-koran

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07 Sep 10 - 10:18 PM (#2982020)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bobert

Yeah, ya' want the truth then go talk with the taxman...

Not...

No, matter.... Paul got some things right about man's relationship with God... So, ya' circumvent the "What would Jesus do?" to "What would God do?"... Yeah, I understand that Jesus told Mathew "Thru me you will know the Father" but think about it??? If the Father made us all in His own likeness then, what??? Folks who ain't Christain ain't His creatures??? Big problem there fir folks who are so intolerant of others that they are incapable of just takin' the entire story down to basics... Either God made us all in His likeness or He didn't??? And...

...if He did then, hey, this is more about the "middlemen", ain't it???

No matter... The Good Reverand needs to take a little refresher at the local seminary on "God's love" and leave that ol' Southern sports (especially NASCAR) pissed-off mentality behind him like...

...dust being shaken from the robe...

Can I get an amen???

B~

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07 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM (#2982026)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Don Firth

Vast numbers of Christian churches of all denominations have strongly condemned this action. I've heard several news reports today to that effect.

Don Firth

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07 Sep 10 - 11:32 PM (#2982057)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

Allah, give me strength! God, give me patience! Jesus, keep my sense of humour from collapsing totally. Chongo, please pass me a ripe mango.

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07 Sep 10 - 11:42 PM (#2982062)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

How do these mental cases get where they are?

On the backs of mental migets.

AS log as 'Religion' is treated differently from any other field of endeavor, we have to tolerate, nay, even protect these sorts of nutcases ... for 'religion' is better than all the rest of us, so we are told ....

How do you want religion to be treated? I don't understand. How is the way religion is treated any different from the way any other voluntary non-profit association is treated? All you can do is take away their tax break, which should have been done long ago anyway.

Lets see the "mainstream" "christians"[sic] come out & condemn these jackasses. (PS: Don't hold your breath)

You are quite wrong about that. I don't suppose an apology is forthcoming?

As far as I can see, all religions are nothing but superstition based on fear, ignorance and ego. All are tarred with the same brush. Their main function is to keep the masses in line with threats of hell and damnation. Rubbish.

Boy, THAT helped the conversation along.

If the Father made us all in His own likeness then, what??? Folks who ain't Christain ain't His creatures???

Whoa, non-sequitur alert. How does the latter come from the former?

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07 Sep 10 - 11:49 PM (#2982065)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,EBarnacle

I have changed my mind. He should be encouraged to burn the Korans, the Bible and the Torah, as well as assorted other holy books...on the wooden floor of his church with all of his parishoners inside. If he's right, whatever supreme being there is will keep them all alive like Daniel in the fiery furnace. If not, no loss.

PS, since he is almost certainly a TeaBagger, no fire department should come to their rescue, as they are all supported to some level by taxes.

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08 Sep 10 - 12:01 AM (#2982066)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"How do you want religion to be treated? I don't understand."

It is ALWAYS treated as 'special', as are those who claim they are 'acting in accordance with their Religious Beliefs'. If it wasn't, people like him who make such 'guided pronouncements - guided by some "Supreme Being" - not accountable to humanity for their actions!' would be called a nutter just like those who claim they are Jesus or Napoleon and locked up for safety reasons, ours AND his.

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08 Sep 10 - 12:06 AM (#2982067)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: LadyJean

The allegedly Reverend Terry Jones is a flaming asshole.

Happily, he also sounds like a publicity hound. It's possible if somebody lets him spout his barf on their television show, he'll call off the conflagration. It works for those fools at Westport Baptist.

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08 Sep 10 - 12:13 AM (#2982070)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Sandy Mc Lean

The koran is just a book as is the bible. It is the unfortunate intent of arseholes on both sides of the equation to fan flames. If a book is burned another can be printed tomorrow but people dying over such a cause is asinine.
I am at this time watching a documentary on TV about a man who tried to kill his sister because she brought "dishonor" to him and his family (she was going to go to college in New York City over her parents objection). He is doing 10 years in Attica but the piece of shit still blames his sister for putting him there. If religions would demand peaceful co-existance on this planet, instead of promoting bigotry and ignorance, I would have more respect for them. Fools on both sides must come out of the dark ages!

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08 Sep 10 - 12:49 AM (#2982086)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Don Firth

"If religions would demand peaceful co-existance on this planet, instead of promoting bigotry and ignorance, I would have more respect for them. Fools on both sides must come out of the dark ages!"

The tenets of all the world's religions demand peaceful co-existence with others, including those with whom one disagrees. The Ten Commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill." This is one of the foundations of both Judaism and Christianity. The Koran states that to kill one person is as if one killed the whole world. And there are good reasons why Jesus is called "The Prince of Peace." "Love one another," is hardly a call to battle, nor is "Love thine enemies." This is what is written in the scriptures of these religions.

Now, if only those who claim to be Muslim, Christian, or what have you, really knew what their religions actually call for--and abide by it--it would be a whole different world.

Oftentimes it's the so-called "religious" leaders who are primarily to blame. But the followers of these leaders share the blame, too, for not reading the Scriptures for themselves instead of allowing them to interpreted for them by some minister, rabbi, or imam.

Don Firth

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08 Sep 10 - 01:05 AM (#2982093)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

It is ALWAYS treated as 'special', as are those who claim they are 'acting in accordance with their Religious Beliefs'. If it wasn't, people like him who make such 'guided pronouncements - guided by some "Supreme Being" - not accountable to humanity for their actions!' would be called a nutter just like those who claim they are Jesus or Napoleon and locked up for safety reasons, ours AND his.

Huh? No religious nutters have ever gone to jail? No religious compounds have ever been burned down by the feds? Dude, religious nutters are held accountable for their actions. Shoot, Jesus was killed for his actions. What more do you want?

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08 Sep 10 - 01:07 AM (#2982095)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Clontarf83

Anyone done any digging on this "Pastor's" history--he looks like a mediocrity that has found an opportunity to ride on a wave of ignorance and hate---I wonder what his history would tell us.

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08 Sep 10 - 02:16 AM (#2982116)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Let's be fair! If the pastor spoke to God, and God didn't deter him from his intention to burn the books, who are we to criticise.

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08 Sep 10 - 02:36 AM (#2982121)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

How do we get God to confirm that he agrees with that pastor's actions, Tunesmith? ;-)

In most wars everyone except militant communists claims that God is backing their side! This means either that...

1. Someone is lying.
2. Someone is mistaken.
3. God backs all sides. (an intriguing way of looking at it...)

or

4. They're just blathering away like that to motivate their soldiers and make them feel good about killing the people on the other side. Just standard government propaganda, in other words.

Communists, however, have usually made it a really strong point to the Party faithful that God is NOT backing their side or anyone else's, because there IS no God (except for the Party, of course...heh!)...and there are no holy books (except the ones written by Marx and Engels which state clearly that there is no God).

It's equally self-serving bullshit on either side, in my opinion, but everybody likes to think they're special and that their way is best, don't they? ;-)

My point to all that is, why should I focus exclusively on how self-serving and vain the religious of this world may be when the anti-religious of this world are so often equally self-serving and vain?

Ebbie - The ripe mango isn't code for anything. I literally want Chongo to pass me a ripe mango because they're delicious, I want Allah to give me strength, I want God to give me patience, I want Jesus to help keep my sense of humour alive in stressful times, I want the Communists to provide free health care, the capitalists to provide flexible entrepreneurship, the religious and the anti-religious to both mind their own busines and not pester other people, and I'd also like to have a new Dachshund pup and maybe half a million in the bank. ;-)

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08 Sep 10 - 03:20 AM (#2982135)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Anyone quoted Heinrich Heine yet?

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08 Sep 10 - 05:22 AM (#2982166)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Bruce,

Do you defend the burning of books in Nazi Germany too?

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08 Sep 10 - 05:32 AM (#2982170)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Patsy

I heard this on the news last night and this morning and couldn't wait to get into work anticipating the reaction on Mudcats. My reaction was 'here we go another stupid clergy male who was blessed with a mouth and no brain.' And it dawned on me the most dangerous things on this planet are MEN. Just go away!

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08 Sep 10 - 06:00 AM (#2982186)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"Huh? No religious nutters have ever gone to jail? No religious compounds have ever been burned down by the feds? Dude, religious nutters are held accountable for their actions"

The response of Society is not consistent - some literally get away with murder - viz abortion clinic terrorists. Then there was the Crusades - "Kill them all - let God sort them out" ...

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08 Sep 10 - 06:10 AM (#2982191)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Steve Shaw

I wasn't aware that Jesus was particularly religious. There's certainly a massive faultline between the sublime things in his teachings and the ludicrous claims to divinity. I'm hanging desperately on to the wacky notion that the latter was all in the tendentious minds of the gospel writers.

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08 Sep 10 - 06:37 AM (#2982205)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall

If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance.

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08 Sep 10 - 07:07 AM (#2982216)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

behaviour liable to lead to a breach of the peace

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08 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM (#2982224)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,jonny sunshine

I'd say let him start a fire, and let the fire be put out and the pastor and his pathetic congregation be soaked with buckets of water carried by a thousand people wearing T-shirts that say "What would Jesus do?"

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08 Sep 10 - 07:33 AM (#2982226)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance."

A classic Kendallism!

Keep 'em coming!

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08 Sep 10 - 07:51 AM (#2982236)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

The real issue is - what's 'Joe the Plumber' going to do? Join in or condemn it?


How deep does this kind of feeling run?

How much poison does America have in its veins?


Are Moslems the new Jews, i.e. scapegoats for all occasions, to be bullied and intimidated and ultimately typecast as enemies of the state?

It all depends on who gets voted into office and who supports them.

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08 Sep 10 - 08:21 AM (#2982251)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Dave Hanson

Only morons burn books.

Dave H

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08 Sep 10 - 08:27 AM (#2982256)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: EBarnacle

"Are Moslems the new Jews, i.e. scapegoats for all occasions, to be bullied and intimidated and ultimately typecast as enemies of the state?"

"The nations of the world run on oil." Once the war in the Near East goes away, so will much of the vilification of Arabs and Muslims in general. Consider the panic which accompanied the rise of the Black Muslims in the United States. Now, except for a few crazy ministers, you rarely hear of them. Jews, as a small minority with few resources except our own brains and a long tradition of being "not like us," are always suspect, whether or not it is politically correct.

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08 Sep 10 - 09:02 AM (#2982271)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Joe Plumber/Sixpack needs someone to blame for the crap going on in the country. We were told if we just work hard we can have a better life than our parents, and now that's falling apart, and the real reasons for it are complex and not amenable to soundbite treatment. What to do? What to do?

Cast around for a scapegoat. Comparisons to the Jews of 1930s Europe is very apt. It has to be someone's fault. For a bit there, the illegal immigrants of Arizona (is that a name for a rock group, or what?) took the heat off the Muslims, but now the eye of the irrational has swung back to the Muslims -- in part, alas, because of the non-ground zero non-mosque. And since there was intense hatred of Muslims just following 9/11 (mosques were bombed, IIRC -- a friend volunteered to walk little Muslim kids to school because people --grownup people-- were throwing things at them!), returning to reviling Muslims feels like coming home.

By the way, "cast around for a scapegoat" well describes some of the behaviour of the anti-religious on this thread, although their scapegoat is somewhat broader than just Muslims.

---

08 Sep 10 - 09:07 AM (#2982278)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"Once the war in the Near East goes away, so will much of the vilification of Arabs and Muslims in general"

I put it to you eBarnacle that Arabs and Moslems have been villified as far back as the crusades.

Your seeming idea that scapegoating Jews is different to scapegoating Moslems and that we needn't worry about the scapegoating of moslems seems to suggest that we shouldn't take moslem scapegoating too seriously but that Jews need to be treated with special sensitivity.

I pt it to you that there are no differences in scapegoating any demographic, be it on religious or racial grounds and that you are wrong to draw that distinction.

---

08 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM (#2982289)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

From a purely pragmatic point of view, the only things that Koran burning can accomplish are a)instill a smug "we showed 'em" attitude within the bosoms of the bookburners and b) provide an unbelievable PR boost to Quaeda, Taliban and all other Muslim America-haters, with a predictable response of increased violence against Americans abroad.
    Petraus, Clinton and many others have spoken out strongly against this proposed asct...to date, McCain, Palin, Boehner, McConnell, Bush, Cheney et al have not said a word.

---

08 Sep 10 - 10:02 AM (#2982305)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Petraus, Clinton and many others have spoken out strongly against this proposed asct...to date, McCain, Palin, Boehner, McConnell, Bush, Cheney et al have not said a word.

But to his credit (and to many's suspicion including my own), Glenn Beck has spoken against it.

---

08 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM (#2982337)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

While I could find no official population figures for religious affiliation in the United States, experts estimate that there are approximately six million American Muslims but the statements by the military do not seem primarily concerned with the effect upon these fellow citizens

U.S. military commanders have condemned the International plea to Burn the Qur'an Day

General David Petraeus, the U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, said in a statement
"It could endanger troops and it could endanger the overall effort,"
Lieutenant-General William Caldwell, commander of the NATO Training Mission in Afghanistan, added
"We very much feel that this could jeopardize the safety of our men and women that are serving over here,"
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs echoed the concerns raised by Petraeus. "Any type of activity like that that puts our troops in harm's way would be a concern to this administration,"

Hilary Clinton has praised the joint statement by US religious leaders condemning what they described as an "anti-Muslim frenzy" in America which had been whipped up in part by "misinformation and outright bigotry" in response to plans to build an Islamic community centre and mosque close to the site of the 9/11 attacks in New York

However, it appears to date that the American Secretary of State remains the highest ranking US official to criticise the plans

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg - while calling the burning of the Muslim holy book "distasteful," - has defended the Florida pastor's decision because of his commitment to 'freedom of speech'

Although Jones has been denied a burning permit, he reported that his lawyers said that his First Amendment right to express his beliefs supersedes any local law or regulation

IT REMAINS AN EXCRUCIATING IRONY THAT, POSSIBLY, MANY PEOPLE MAY CONDEMN ALL OF A WORLD RELIGION BECAUSE OF THE ACTIONS OF A FEW HATE FILLED EXTREMISTS.

---

08 Sep 10 - 10:50 AM (#2982338)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

'The Scapegoats'- great name for a band.

---

08 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM (#2982340)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,olddude

It is not the way of Christianity, It is not the path of Christ. It is not the way of a billion peaceful Moslems. That group no more resembled Moslems then the so called Christian leader who gave poison koolaid to all those kids and followers of his ... This is not the path of Christ, he is a disgrace

Dan (cookie less at the moment)

---

08 Sep 10 - 11:13 AM (#2982347)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Mrrzy

It's the same book as the Bible, isn't it, and the Torah or Talmud which I can't keep straight? I know it's the same god...

---

08 Sep 10 - 11:14 AM (#2982351)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

Lox, that's not classic Kendall, unless the bumper sticker in support of educational funding was thought up by him years ago. (Meaning no disrespect to you, Kendal, it IS a good one!)

Dick, excellent points about who has spoken up and who hasn't. The silence is rather deafening, eh?

---

08 Sep 10 - 11:25 AM (#2982362)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

Lox,

Defend? NO.

But it was legal, according to the laws at the time. As was the Holecaust- all legal, but WRONG.

---

08 Sep 10 - 11:38 AM (#2982368)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

"And it dawned on me the most dangerous things on this planet are MEN"

That really is rather unfair on men. Throughout history there have been some quite strong and warmongering females.

Stupidity is not just the realm of men. Please do not condemn them all. Good men are dying every day in the name of peace. Now, whether it is actually FOR peace is another thing, but it is certainly in iit's name. Women too die I know.

There are good and bad on all sides of all genders. I don't mind living in a man's world as long as I can be a woman in it ;-)

It's a man's world


mp

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:02 PM (#2982389)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Angela Merkel seems to keep Germany in a pretty good state.

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:08 PM (#2982393)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

When someone has the good grace to actually stand up for men being trod on unfairly, why do you feel it necessary to hit out and use the same kind of sexist remark I was trying to lessen? Incidentally it was not me who came out with the initial statement though your post seems to credit it to me. Perhaps I should have just let it pass in the first place.

This reply is as off topic as your question was so I will not be drawn further. I refer the right honourable gentleman to a stattement someone made earlier ;-)

and I DO NOT HAVE PMT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol

mp

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:14 PM (#2982397)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

The fact that Guest/Boise doesn't dare use his name tends to corroborate the decline of men. :)

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:19 PM (#2982401)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

We really need Chongo's input on this. He's an expert on gender relations. ;-)

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:27 PM (#2982404)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ

these Quorans are nothing but bundles of paper. There is nothing sacred about any book, including the Bible. Funny thing here is the Rev doing the burning and the Islamic fundamentalists who are outraged have more in common with each other than with any of the rest of us. I only have one problem with Quoran-burning...it should be done in a nice stone fireplace in Colorado in the winter when it can truly do some good.
As for religion, the Buddhists seem to have it right...nothing endures.

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:32 PM (#2982410)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG

First they burned the books, then they burned the authors....

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:34 PM (#2982413)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amos

Guest Boise is a troll, and should not be fed.

The examples of fine female leadership in human history are legion: Cleopatra, Bella Abzug, Jeanne d'Arc, Ms Thatcher (arguable, true), Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel. Come on. That's a silly thread-creep.


A

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:42 PM (#2982421)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,erbert

.. this week Korans..


what next ?..


Heretics and Witches

.. and..   farm animals possessed by demons ??????

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:43 PM (#2982423)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Little Hawk: Your following remark makes a lot of sense!

"How do we get God to confirm that he agrees with that pastor's actions, Tunesmith? ;-)"

And I would like to ask how we get God to confirm what he said to Abraham, Moses and all the rest of those chaps?

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:48 PM (#2982427)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

First they burned the books, then they burned the authors...

See, if not quoted quite correctly, Heinrich Heine was bound to be invoked at some point. And so he should.

---

08 Sep 10 - 12:57 PM (#2982433)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'd imagine the two results this blasphemous "minister" is hoping to achieve would be

a)media attention, which tends to translate into moneymaking opportunities
b)a violent response by his opposite numbers among Muslims, preferably including some dead Americans, which would translate into an increase in Islamophobia in America.

---

08 Sep 10 - 01:09 PM (#2982438)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,EBarnacle

Lox, my point is consistency of hatred.

Even the Evangelists do not love us as Jews. They love us as means to an end; when all of the Jews have returned to the Holy Land and are standing shoulder to shoulder, the Final Days will have arrived and they can be transported to Heaven, where no one but Christians will be allowed.

As a rule, Jews have been scapegoated, hated and feared for the past two millenia because of a refusal to assimilate and integrate and be "Just Like Us." That is our reality. Due to the Diaspora and various mass killings, some smaller, some larger, the local Jewish population has been a convenient target to hatred.

---

08 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM (#2982469)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

3/4 of a million people in Gainesville. Only 50 members of this guy's church. Made into a big story by the press.

---

08 Sep 10 - 01:43 PM (#2982473)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

That's right, Tunesmith. We can't confirm ANY kind of inner event (by "inner", I mean something that occurs but does not have measurable, observable phenomena that someone else can see or measure). We can only confirm outer events which yield data.

This does not mean that inner events aren't real, however. I have just had a whole series of inner thoughts and emotions which really did occur, and I know they did. But neither you nor I nor anyone else can provide documentary evidence of them. Still, I know that they occurred. And that they were a real occurence. But I can't prove it. Nor can anyone else.

That is the nature of spiritual things too. They are very much like thoughts. They occur, and the person who experiences them knows it when they occur, but there is absolutely no way of proving their existence to anyone else. You can only go by personal testimony, and people will believe it or not believe it generally according to their prior prejudices or beliefs about such matters.

And that's where any human being's experience of God or anything spiritual resides...strictly in a form of inner personal experience that can neither be proven or disproven.

Therefore, if there is a God, it would be downright silly to expect that God to show up and state that He, She or It agrees or doesn't agree with something someone else said. You can't get confirmation of an inner thought from an exterior source, and you shouldn't expect to.

So the people who are attempting to say that there is no God because they haven't seen anything to prove there is are attempting to do something ridiculous...like write down something with a ballpoint pen on the air in their room. It's a complete non-sequitor. You cannot prove or disprove subjectivity, you can only prove or disprove objectivity. Nevertheless, subjectivity plays a real part in out lives.

---

08 Sep 10 - 01:47 PM (#2982480)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Stringsinger

It's too late. The nutcase has publicity already and the Muslim world is reacting with anger.

Book burning is the device of fascists. I call these Gainsville churchgoers, Theofascists.

It's a "Crystalnacht" for American Muslims.

Has anyone ever been to Boise, Idaho? (Well then, what do you expect?)

Golda Meier did OK for Israel at one time.

The problem is that the thinking of Guest/Boise is predicated on the fact that creative woman leadership has been denigrated by a prejudiced male society that won't even accept the logical amendment to the Constitution, namely the Equal Rights Amendment.
In other lesser roles than presidents or prime ministers, women have done very well.
Their talent should make it obvious that they would serve well in positions that have
been given to men as leaders. I think of Barbara Jordan and others who would have made excellent presidents of the US.

---

08 Sep 10 - 01:49 PM (#2982481)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: John on the Sunset Coast

Make no mistake, this clergy person is nutty. He would do better, since he has a problem with it, to study the Quran and refute it if he can.

That said, each group and person is responsible for their own actions. Any group or person which/who would riot, maim, kill or otherwise harm others because of his actions, or destroy property is as nutty as he is, and a lot more dangerous.

---

08 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM (#2982494)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Bruce,

I am grateful that you have clarified that you do not defend the Koran burning.

However, I must ask you to be careful with what you write for the following reason.

you say:

"But it was legal, according to the laws at the time. As was the Holecaust- all legal, but WRONG."

But your original point was:

"IMO they have the right to burn them- as the Afghans have the right to burn bibles. But I do not think it to be a wise move."

Your original opinion was that he had the right to do it.

That wasn't a legal point but youe opinion.

I have no doubt you didn't mean that 'If something is legal then you have a right to do it'

Otherwise, by your own words, if the holocaust was legal then the Nazis had a right to inflict it.


Now I know that isn't your opinion, but I do wish you would take the time to consider your posts before committing yourself.


In my opinion, burning books is symptomatic of a dangerous mindset.

---

08 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM (#2982497)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

The problem is that the thinking of Guest/Boise is predicated on the fact that creative woman leadership has been denigrated by a prejudiced male society that won't even accept the logical amendment to the Constitution, namely the Equal Rights Amendment.

More than half the voting public in the US are women. You can't pin this one on the men.

---

08 Sep 10 - 02:09 PM (#2982507)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"As a rule, Jews have been scapegoated, hated and feared for the past two millenia because of a refusal to assimilate and integrate and be "Just Like Us." That is our reality."

Actually, these criticisms are levelled at every scapegoat.

Moslems in the UK "refuse to integrate to be just like us" (catter Ake is one of the first to defend this assertion) and in France they are forced to wear western clothes. In holland they have to pay a tax to wear moslem clothes. in the USA they are being hounded out of their property ...

... Roma's in France "refusing to integrate" have been paid off by the french government to leave the country ...

Either we discriminate on grounds of Race/religion or we don't.

Do you?

---

08 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM (#2982508)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

Today I was chatting to two Muslim shop owners. They were man and wife. We got talking about this latest attempt to try and upset any peace and respect "that most sensible have for each other" the word (their words). They never used religion once. They did talk of feelings and concerns. They also acknowledged that they know this is an attempt to cause offence and upset. They personally would not hold others responsible for such an outrage. They would feel upset if they saw people they knew burning bibles.

We then got to talking to about those affected by the floods in Pakistan.

At no time was their language or demeanour anything other than friendly. At no time was what they said in any way threatening or hateful. We were simply common people with common sense with a common hope for peace in the world and respect for other's feelings.

I wish there was so much more of this worldwide

It is true that a book is just paper. But then so is a photograph. So are letters. So is money! But when that paper holds 'special' meaning to its owner THEN it has a value beyond the ordinary. Burning scared scripts is as insulting to those who respect that script as it is to burn a flag of a country.

I have not heard one person today that said they thinkthis idea is a good one. No-one seems to back this man. Why can they not find some law to stop him in his tracks? The symbolism that he is attempting to raise by this stunt can bring with it no good... it's quite evil :-(

mp

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08 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM (#2982528)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG

Here's another one from Heinrich Heine:

" Christ rode on an ass, but now asses ride on Christ."

and...(this time the correct quote)
" Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings."

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08 Sep 10 - 03:03 PM (#2982544)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Little Hawk, but as always, Christians want it both ways. They believe that Abraham ( a dreadful child abuser) had direct contact with God, but think that Pastor Jones is some sort of nut case!

And who's to say that those nutters that flew in to the Twin Towers didn't have direct contact with God? After all, God inspired Joshua to attack and destroy Jericho!

---

08 Sep 10 - 03:19 PM (#2982560)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

BTNG: here's one:

The difference between St Stephen and modern fundamentalists is the direction the rocks are flying.

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08 Sep 10 - 03:21 PM (#2982565)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: romanyman

there have been more wars fought over religion than anything, so lets ban all religion, simple

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08 Sep 10 - 03:32 PM (#2982572)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Apart from Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc ...

All of whom were Atheist.

---

08 Sep 10 - 03:37 PM (#2982578)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG

mousethief..Fantastic! love it! I really am tempted to get a t-shirt made up with that on it

cheers,
BTNG

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08 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM (#2982591)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

there have been more wars fought over religion than anything, so lets ban all religion, simple

Yeah because then everybody would become good, and beat their swords into ploughshares, and nobody would study war any more.

Naive a bit, are we?

@BTNG: Cheers!

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08 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM (#2982596)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Rapparee

If these idiots go through with it, AND because of it NATO troops or civilians in or from NATO countries die, couldn't they be charged with inciting the murder?

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08 Sep 10 - 04:10 PM (#2982604)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

I doubt it but I sure hope the fire marshall is on hand and is diligent about burning permits etc.

I also think perhaps..maybe it is already done..that others buy a Koran that day to help compensate for this.

It seems to me it is a hate crime but since it is not a crime to burn a book I suppose perhaps it does not qualify. mg

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08 Sep 10 - 04:12 PM (#2982609)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

"there have been more wars fought over religion than anything, so lets ban all religion, simple"

Mankind would simply find something else to fight over... as they already do.

Until Mankind's 'power gene' is tamed there will always be war...

:-(

mp

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08 Sep 10 - 04:16 PM (#2982613)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,999

Until humankind stops wanting what others have, wars will happen. Burning books ain`t gonna change any of that shit.

---

08 Sep 10 - 04:19 PM (#2982616)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

"If these idiots go through with it, AND because of it NATO troops or civilians in or from NATO countries die, couldn't they be charged with inciting the murder? "

I think most hate crime legislation and that covering religious incitement is covered here in the UK. I am almost certain in the UK and many European countries such things would be stopped.

My ignorance about American laws - which State allows what and has this and that - leaves me short of an answer as to how this man can do what he proposes.

The potential to cause mass death by various means because of his actions I would think would be sufficient to need to stop him. Can anyone say why he has a right to do as he is planning?

mp

---

08 Sep 10 - 04:22 PM (#2982617)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Can anyone say why he has a right to do as he is planning?

Because we still, for the moment, have the freedom to do what we like with our own small goods. Burning things as a protest is also covered as "free speech" by the first amendment of our battered and bruised Constitution, according to case law.

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08 Sep 10 - 04:28 PM (#2982632)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall

This is a note I sent to the Gainsville Police.

Gainesville Police Department website:

Comments:
That whack job "Reverend" belongs in a rubber room, not a pulpit! Can't you charge him with inciting to riot, or at least disorderly conduct?

---

08 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM (#2982641)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amos

It seems pretty clear that this is hate speech, regardless of whether it was spoken through the hair-dryer of God or some other bizarre source such as Limbaugh through the radio. As such it may be actionable.

So is burning without a permit.

Unfortunately such folks have a Constitutional right to preserve their inherent idiocy.


A

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08 Sep 10 - 04:37 PM (#2982644)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

Thanks for that mousethief. It has puzzled me exceedingly

I was really befuddled by it :-)

mp

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08 Sep 10 - 04:39 PM (#2982646)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

No idea is so big and powerful as to not be measured by doubt.

If respect for the constitution and a belief in a redemption by the man god Jesus Christ are truely important to Reverend Hicks,
he will have a doubt that may change his mind.

Such an event of choosing a different path at the last minute will be an act of redemption in itself and serve as example of chosing good in the face of evil. You may doubt that this scenario could happen but if it did it would be a redemption that could take on a life of its own.

---

08 Sep 10 - 05:05 PM (#2982659)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

1. I don't suppose an apology is forthcoming?

2. Vast numbers of Christian churches of all denominations have strongly condemned this action.


Nope, no apology.

Uh Huh. The action

Get back to me when they condemn the asshole.

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08 Sep 10 - 05:21 PM (#2982667)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

He'll have to wear a sign on his butt saying:

      "This Asshole has been condemned! keep out!"



.

---

08 Sep 10 - 05:27 PM (#2982669)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

You know - I've just been checking out this story again, and it strikes me that I actually feel sorry for him.

He's an ignorant old fool who doesn't know better, with a tiny congragation of followers, who's been made the fall guy for the right wing by somebody within the media, who wants the issue of Islam in America to get blown into yet another divisive and polarizing political football.

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08 Sep 10 - 05:38 PM (#2982680)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

What does "condemning the asshole" actually mean? I have no doubt that a great many people, Christians and non-Christians, laity and clergy, have expressed themselves in the strongest term about the pathetic oaf.

It sound as if Greg is envisaging some kind of fatwa, or a formal repudiation, like a defrocking or excommunication, and is indignant that this hasn't taken place - but that sort of thing could only apply if the man were a minister within a denomination where that kind of sanction was possible, and he evidently isn't. He's just a vicious nut who has conned a oddball congregation into allowing him into a pulpit.

---

08 Sep 10 - 05:46 PM (#2982685)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,olddude

Organized Christian Churches do NOT hate Jews, most are political power organizations who hate anyone who do not belong to their church. At no time did Christ say only Christians go to heaven. He did say the greatest commandment was to Love your neighbor as yourself. And that which you do to the least of my brothers you do to me. Pretty simple words for one to follow in their life is it not ... And if you do that maybe just maybe if you believe their is one you will be there .. We will know that soon enough when we all take the dirt nap.

Yet this is what it has become .. yes the end of days probably is coming .. Hate creates hate creates more hate creates more and more and more ...

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth ... till everyone is blind and toothless ... yet it was all thrown out but a few simple words they cannot understand or follow

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08 Sep 10 - 06:18 PM (#2982696)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

"Make no mistake, this clergy person is nutty. He would do better, since he has a problem with it, to study the Quran and refute it if he can."

Galileo, where art thou?

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08 Sep 10 - 06:32 PM (#2982710)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

It sound as if Greg is envisaging some kind of fatwa, or a formal repudiation, like a defrocking or excommunication, and is indignant that this hasn't taken place

Sounds like Greg is playing semantic "move the goalposts".

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08 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM (#2982716)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: EBarnacle

Olddude, I thought I was clearly and carefully discriminating between those apocolyptic churches which base their theology on the end of days and those which are clearly Christian. Many sects subscribe to bizarre concepts, and I include various Orthodox Jewish groups.

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08 Sep 10 - 06:56 PM (#2982729)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,olddude

Ebarnacle
No offense taken my friend

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08 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM (#2982735)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,999

All religions have their lunatic fringes. ALL of them. The idea of burning books is repugnant to me. Y`all have heard the oldie but goodie that ``some village is missing its idiot``. We lived through Falwell, the Swaggarts (sp) and a number of others. This is just one more. I expect that if there is a God out there, then this guy is in a serious amount of shit with the Boss anyway.

The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament.

The following is from Wiki, and says it more clearly than I could.

``The Talmud (Hebrew: תַּלְמוּד talmūd "instruction, learning", from a root lmd "teach, study") is a central text of mainstream Judaism, in the form of a record of rabbinic discussions pertaining to Jewish law, ethics, philosophy, customs and history.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

The terms Talmud and Gemara are often used interchangeably. The Gemara is the basis for all codes of rabbinic law and is much quoted in other rabbinic literature. The whole Talmud is also traditionally referred to as Shas (ש"ס), a Hebrew abbreviation of shisha sedarim, the "six orders" of the Mishnah.``

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08 Sep 10 - 07:16 PM (#2982743)
Subject: a coupla questions
From: Crowhugger

There are a few posts that seem to say that protection of free speech means the right to burn books &/or other small personal possessions. (Non-sequitur alert: Does that include the right to burn one's own official US flag?)

Back to the topic at hand: At what point does US *criminal* law limit the right of such expression because of harm or credible risk of harm to others? Or is that the domain of civil courts only?

I'm not a lawyer, but in this layperson's understanding, here in Canada, my freedom ends where yours begins, including the notion that you have the right not to have your religious beliefs maligned.

Also, when someone has been informed that a planned behaviour will almost certainly cost lives and disrupt a military mission, then they do it anyway, I'm pretty sure that up here they'd end up convicted at least of manslaughter. I would have thought that the US would be faster than Canada to imprison someone planning to do such a thing.

I'm trying to grasp what place, if any, these principles have in US law as regards the joker under discussion here.

---

08 Sep 10 - 07:56 PM (#2982766)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

"Palin: Koran burning is 'unnecessary provocation'
Sep 8 06:38 PM US/Eastern

Former US vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin on Wednesday condemned a small Florida church's planned Koran burning ceremony as an "insensitive and an unnecessary provocation."

"Book burning is antithetical to American ideals," Palin, a possible Republican contender for the White House in 2012, said in a post on her Facebook page.

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero," said the former Alaska governor.

She was comparing the evangelical Christian Dove World Outreach Center's plans to torch Islam's holy book on the anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist strikes to plans to build a community center to include a mosque some two blocks from the site of the attacks in New York City.

Palin urged the Koran burning organizer, Pastor Terry Jones, to reconsider the possible effects of their planned gesture, which has drawn expressions of outrage from around the globe.

"It will feed the fire of caustic rhetoric and appear as nothing more than mean-spirited religious intolerance. Don't feed that fire," she said.

"If your ultimate point is to prove that the Christian teachings of mercy, justice, freedom, and equality provide the foundation on which our country stands, then your tactic to prove this point is totally counter-productive."

Palin noted the importance of freedom of religion in the United States and warned against "unnecessarily provoking strife." "

---

08 Sep 10 - 07:57 PM (#2982767)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: kendall

Dan, didn't Jesus say, I am the way..no man sees the Father except through me?

---

08 Sep 10 - 08:00 PM (#2982771)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

'Does that include the right to burn one's own official US flag?'

It would seem so

The U.S. Supreme Court has made clear in several landmark rulings that speech deemed offensive to many people - even a majority - cannot be suppressed by law unless it is clearly directed to intimidate someone or incite violence, legal experts have claimed

According to Curt Anderson / Associated Press

'One applicable Supreme Court ruling came in 1989, when the justices struck down laws in Texas and 47 other states that prohibited
desecration of the U.S. flag.
That case grew out of flag-burning by otherwise nonviolent demonstrators outside the 1984 Republican National Convention in Dallas.
In a 5-4 decision, Justice William Brennan wrote for the majority: "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." '

In another key case in 2003, the Supreme Court invalidated Virginia's law against cross-burning because it did not include a crucial component: whether the KKK intended to intimidate someone by burning the cross !

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08 Sep 10 - 08:04 PM (#2982775)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

It sound[sic] as if Greg is envisaging some kind of fatwa, or a formal repudiation, like a defrocking or excommunication, and is indignant that this hasn't taken place

Oh, please. Simply way past time that those who make a pretense of following Jesus Christ and his teachings say that this nutter is beyond the pale, instead of just implying that he's simply blotted his copybook.

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08 Sep 10 - 08:36 PM (#2982793)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

Granted, Muslim extremists don't think or react the way most folks in the US do. Does that mean it's okay to provoke them, just when we're spending dollars and lives on counterinsurgency?

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08 Sep 10 - 08:51 PM (#2982806)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"Muslim extremists don't think or react the way most folks in the US do"

Christian extremists don't think or react the way most Muslims in the US do.

---

08 Sep 10 - 09:11 PM (#2982816)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

"didn't Jesus say, I am the way..no man sees the Father except through me?"

That's hard to say, kendall. It's impossible to say, given the fact that the little we know about him is based on a bunch of different accounts written by a bunch of different people in the decades following his death, people who each had their own political axes to grind and who disagreed about a number of things, and whom we cannot necessarily depend upon for total accuracy or objectivity regarding what Jesus said or did.

He is reputed in one of the Gospels to have said it. That doesn't mean he did say it, and it doesn't mean he has not been misquoted or quoted out of context for someone else's purposes...nor does a completely literal reading of that passage take into account an esoteric interpretation of the words which would yield quite a different take on it than the usual assumptions people make.

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08 Sep 10 - 09:16 PM (#2982820)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Rapparee

If he wants to burn his Qu'ran, fine. I'll be happy to send him my copy if he wants to read it. I'll just buy a new one.

You know, if the media all ignored him this would be a non-story, which it actually is.

---

08 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM (#2982830)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Richard Bridge

Surely Palin errs by equating burning with building.

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08 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM (#2982833)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Surely Palin errs by equating burning with building.

Yes. Building oneself a house of worship and burning somebody else's holy books to be provocative are so incomparable it's offensive that she should compare them. But then she's an offensive bitch lady.

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08 Sep 10 - 09:41 PM (#2982842)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

SPIEGEL ONLINE - Islamophobe's Past in Germany
Terry Jones Accused of 'Spiritual Abuse' at Cologne Church

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08 Sep 10 - 10:04 PM (#2982847)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Arkie

Jesus and Paul of Tarsus, one of the primary interpreters of Christianity in the first century spoke of breaking down barriers between cultures and religions. Both also stressed that followers of Jesus were called to a new way of life of seeking the greatest common good and rejecting the common actions of revenge, hatred, and self-serving actions. In light of the early message of Christianity there are several problems with the burning of the Koran. First, it is a rejection of the Christian message of taking the higher road and seeking reconciliation. Second, it follows the baser path of "you threatened me so I am going to insult you". The Bible that I use suggests that such a reaction is contradictory to the message and intent of Jesus Christ. Another problem as many have pointed out is that the terrorists who destroyed the towers in New York do not represent Islam any more than than this radical preacher in Florida represents Christianity. And for once I agree with Sarah Palin.

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08 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM (#2982855)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

Prediction: The pastor Terry Jones will end up burning ONE ceremonial copy of the Koran.

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09 Sep 10 - 03:36 AM (#2982925)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Richard Bridge

I don't think I agree that Sarah Palin is a lady either!

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09 Sep 10 - 10:05 AM (#2983085)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,olddude

Guy was interviewed on TV, has his bible in one hand and a loaded Glock 23 40 caliber on the desk next to his other hand .. That is the way of Christ huh ...

Take me a 1000 years to explain it to him and he still wouldn't get it. He seeks attention and his 15 minutes of fame .. and he now got it.. a disgraceful human being and certainly no man of the cloth. This would not even have been an issue if the media would have ignored the creep as what is truly is ... an attention seeking creep .. but they played right into his hands

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09 Sep 10 - 10:13 AM (#2983092)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jack the Sailor

I find myself having to publicly disagree with my good friend Kendall.

I see a lot of good in religion. The teachings of Jesus, Budda, Mohommed and so many others have done much to decrease violence and chaos in the world.

As for this particular instance. I am speaking as a Christian in America, If we were to follow Jesus' advice on this matter, to turn the other cheek; and more importantly in the case of the Manhattan Mosque, to follow his commandment and love our enemy and, again, more importantly our neighbors as our selves, we would be making our best effort for world peace and doing what is best for our country.

Bobert,

Need I point out that the lack of response from Billy Graham is mostly likely due to the fact that he has been dead for quite some time. I'd also like to point out that he, when he was alive and Mr. Stanley now are people who try to live the WORD.

Jesus, said something that translates in my mind as 'cast the log out of your own eye before you point out the mote in another person's eye.' As he often did, Jesus was using exaggeration and vivid imagery to make his point. His point is that it is unbecoming and often hypocritical for a Christian to criticize. Judge not lest you be judged was another way he put it.

Mr's Graham and Stanley have said plenty to give any serious follower of theirs a clear idea that the Koran burning is wrong. But being men who were/are seriously trying to follow in the footsteps of Jesus, open condemnation of another is not a tactic which is open to them.

Bruce had made the point that both the Koran burning and the building of the Mosque are legal but in his view wrong. I think that the underlying evil in both cases is on the same side and stems from the same source. It is the fallacy that the sins of 19 hijackers can be blamed on all Muslims.

Did the early Christians blame all Romans for their persecutions and call on God to avenge them then fight with the sword? Peter tried that. What did Jesus do? The Christian way, the true Christian way is to meet the violence with love and to martyr ones self if necessary.

Belonging to today's Church is very easy. You can have a three car garage, a beach house, an RV and 12 guitars and be a member in good standing. You can vote Republican have someone else's 20 year old child fight wars that you support in exchange for their only true hope at an education.

But Jesus said it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven.

Does your Pastor know where you are bound to end up if you follow your present course? Is he telling you that 10% plus a side donation for the building fund is all that is required? Is he a rich man too?

Tea Party Christians say that the country is going down hill due to an erosion of Christian values. I couldn't agree more.

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09 Sep 10 - 10:16 AM (#2983094)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Old dude,

in reference to your last post about Terry Jones using the media, ...

... I wonder which tail is wagging which dog? ...

---

09 Sep 10 - 10:17 AM (#2983095)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jack the Sailor

What have Sarah Palin and Glen Beck done to earn consideration of their opinions on this matter?

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09 Sep 10 - 10:52 AM (#2983117)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

JtS, Billy Graham is alive, so far as I know. He's getting up there, though, and has Parkinson's. Don't know about Mr. Stanley- in fact, I don't know Mr. Stanley - except Ralph - I was thinking that Bobert had referred to Billy Sunday but I couldn't find it. But then it is still very early here this morning.

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09 Sep 10 - 10:57 AM (#2983120)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: SINSULL

A little church in Tennessee has opened its doors to a local Muslim group while their center is under construction. Hope thay get as much Press as the sad case in Florida. I plan on sending them a bit of cash to help pay for their kindness.
SINS

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09 Sep 10 - 11:13 AM (#2983136)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: wysiwyg

Hain't read all this thread but in case anyone wondered, things to do about all this are going around in Christian circles and action occurring.... such as people traveling long distances to sit vigil shifts overnight 9/11 at mosques, with cell phones ready to get help to stop "crystalnacht" imitators and send a message of support to Muslim friends.

~S~

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09 Sep 10 - 11:59 AM (#2983172)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

"You know, if the media all ignored him this would be a non-story, which it actually is."

In many ways I agree. BUT... it's the possible aftermath of his actions, the consequences of what he does, that will not be a non-story if they come about.

Now he must know by now what he is entering into? He cannot be unaware now that his actions risk a great deal and that it is quite un-Christian to do as he proposes?

People have been imprisoned by America without due process where it has been levied that many lives could be at stake. I am not for people being imprisoned without due regard to their rights so maybe they could place this man in 'safe custody' until after the date has passed? Could there not be an argument that to do as he proposes is so dangerous, and to be aware of the potential harm to even himself, then perhaps mental health laws could be invoked? To deliberately do what he suggests has to be down to some mental health issue or as a deliberate incitement to cause harm to others?

There has to be some hope he can be stopped? Or, maybe, Muslims could turn a blind eye to his attempts to cause such offence and hatred? If they could make a statement that they will ignore his actions then he has nothing at all to gain?

I know... I am living in dream land, but one has to hope that common sense prevails somewhere and that this man does not go through with it

mp

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09 Sep 10 - 01:45 PM (#2983268)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

It looks like the State department is going to call on Pastor Joe Geek of the Gainesville Florida NeoConfederacy church of JEsus Christ Almighty.

There will be a statement after the call is made


The tea party intolerence has already spawned copy cat book burners.
There seems to be a Koran shortage. Is Amazon is selling out of Korans?
In a pinch a book named 'Corwin' will do.

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09 Sep 10 - 02:01 PM (#2983284)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: paula t

I'm rather ignorant about this. Is there no official head of that particular church in the States? I don't understand why no-one else from that denomination has raised their head above the papapet and told them to think again.I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury allowing something like this to go unchallenged. How does it workL

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09 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM (#2983288)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Paula_t: I believe they're a denomination of one. Heck of a lot of independent churches in the US that answer to no-one except their own pastor (not even God, it would seem).

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09 Sep 10 - 02:11 PM (#2983294)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

He looks like a civil war babtist leutenent but looks can be deceiving.
HE might be Viking or French.

Anyway if its called off, there may some good to be learned by those who need "learnin".

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09 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM (#2983300)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

Strintly speaking a translation of the Koran/Qur'an is not a Koran/Qur'an - that term is reserved for the text in the original Arabic. Burning a translation is highly offensive, but it doesn't count as sacrilege, in the way burning a real Koran/Qur'an would be.

It's a bit analogous to the difference between burning a copy of the Old Testament and burning a synagogue's Torah Scroll.

However I doubt that angry Muslims around the world are too likely to be making that kind of distinction.

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09 Sep 10 - 02:38 PM (#2983323)
Subject: US Church History in OPne Post
From: wysiwyg

I'm rather ignorant about this. Is there no official head of that particular church in the States? I don't understand why no-one else from that denomination has raised their head above the papapet and told them to think again.I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury allowing something like this to go unchallenged. How does it work

After 1776, many denominations here in the US formed as offshoots of denoms with authority structures in place, and then as generations of these splits have occurred since then there has been more and more rebellious, "I have a minister's degree" soapboxing.


OK, LOL-- that summarizes several hundred years of US church history rather cavalierly, but imagine it this way. If the States took their independence from colonial rule as they did-- but then imagine if every city in every state had then formed its own sovereign home-rule gummint, and was allowed to do so. Result: crapshoot. Think our Civil War was weird? Multiply it in the religion arena and there we are today.

PM for further discussion.

~Susan

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09 Sep 10 - 02:47 PM (#2983333)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jack the Sailor

Ebbie,

It looks like you are correct, sorry Bobert. It was the news of his wife's passing I remembered.

In any case, my point stands.

Pat Robertson might be expected to directly condemn the behavior of other preachers. "Sinless" Pat is always quick to cast the first couple of stones. But based on my experience with either of them, I would not expect such behavior from Graham or Stanley.

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09 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM (#2983336)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu

The idiot said on a Canuck radio program today he might call it off. Maybe he is rethinking God's protection and blessing on this one?

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09 Sep 10 - 03:10 PM (#2983352)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

This pastor is a non entity and a fool.
All countries and populations have many such.
He only matters because he is going to offend moslems.
Other religions would just shrug off such an insult.
They will kill people.
That is the real problem.

---

09 Sep 10 - 03:16 PM (#2983356)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jack the Sailor

No the real problem is bigots who equate all Muslims with the actions of a few.

Those bigots trying to draw us into a fight combined with the Muslim bigots trying to draw them into a fight. That's the real problem.

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09 Sep 10 - 03:36 PM (#2983376)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu

I think the problem is the fear mongering rich who subjugate the poor through divide and conquer for there own greed. But, I've said that before... a thousand times. Waste of breath in the end.

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09 Sep 10 - 03:41 PM (#2983378)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Strintly speaking a translation of the Koran/Qur'an is not a Koran/Qur'an - that term is reserved for the text in the original Arabic. Burning a translation is highly offensive, but it doesn't count as sacrilege, in the way burning a real Koran/Qur'an would be.

Many translations are actually diglotts, with the original text on one page and the English translation on the facing page.

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09 Sep 10 - 03:43 PM (#2983381)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

"They will kill people. That is the real problem"
The history of many religions has includes the ruthless removal of opposition to its beliefs and dogmas; Christianity has been well established among the front-runners in this.
The only thing that has changed in the present day has been the removal of the opportunity to follow their basic instincts.
Jim Carroll

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09 Sep 10 - 03:48 PM (#2983386)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

Extortion plain and simple.

Bigot is a very pointed word that probably applies to Reverend Rearend, but I prefer to call him a ;

Neo-Confederate
Palinesque
Tea Partier
Rush Legionaire
Glen Beckler
fundamentalist fungus
The !/3 of the American PUBLIC THAT IS poorly EDUCATED AND FEARFULLY informed by FOX news.


PS !

Fox news has shown a ticker on the bottom of the screen that has a COUNT DOWN TO KORAN BURNING with a digital clock TICKING down to The second. FOX NEws and Beck are as happy as pigs in shit right now.

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09 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM (#2983388)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

Gnu, You have an excellent grasp of the big picture.

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09 Sep 10 - 04:05 PM (#2983399)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Paco O'Barmy

Good luck to the Pastor. It's time you Yanks got your balls out again. 9/11 today. Or has your compensation/litigation culture finally squeezed all free thinking out of you all?

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09 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM (#2983405)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Or has your compensation/litigation culture finally squeezed all free thinking out of you all?

Huh?

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09 Sep 10 - 04:25 PM (#2983412)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Keith,

So you do despise Moslems then ...

... or could you really believe that crap you just posted ...

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09 Sep 10 - 04:32 PM (#2983416)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Paco O'Barmy

Well, do you want a constant supply of oil or not? I know that like me, most of you wouldn't give a flying fuck about Arabia as long as the oil keeps flowing1

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09 Sep 10 - 05:21 PM (#2983444)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Oh, a flaming troll, burning bright.

The media should have ignored the Dove pastor; he is too insignificant to be brought to the forefront of the news. There are hundreds of thousands with faulty wiring in their brains, what's the point in talky-talk about them.
Leave them to the local authorities.

And now pages of Mudcat space wasted talking about it.

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09 Sep 10 - 05:22 PM (#2983446)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

I propose a boycott of ALL media which carries ANY thing which gives this idiot any kind of publicity AND tell the media WHY we are turnign them off on 9/11. Boycott Media Coverage of Koran Burning on FB.

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09 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM (#2983449)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, I do not despise anyone.
I aspire to be Christian.
I accept that many think it OK to lampoon us.
Jerry Springer The Opera. Life of Brian.
Many Moslems seem to think that any slur on them entitles them to kill people.
The cartoons. Rushdie's books.
That is a problem.
This pastor is no one.
If he was insulting any other religion it would not matter.
The world is full of twats like him.
Moslems should lighten up and not kill people because of one twat.

---

09 Sep 10 - 05:49 PM (#2983465)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

Moslems should lighten up and not kill people because of one twat.

True. But since it's not going to happen this week or next, kind of irrelevant. Christians less than 500 years ago were killing one another because of their interpretations of the Bible. Muslims are still catching up with us.

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09 Sep 10 - 06:04 PM (#2983472)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Little Hawk

The Muslim faith is younger than Christianity by about 600 years. It is typical of large religions that they are more strict and severe in their youth than they are after many centuries of internal debate and re-interpretation of the teachings, not to mention external collision with other cultures. They become more moderate as time goes by.

Now...what was the typical behaviour of Christians 600 years ago? That takes us back to the early 1400's. At that time the Pope commanded all of Christendom and had the power of life and death over people, there were violent pogroms against Jews and other minorities, torture was a standard method of exacting confessions, and people were burned at the stake for heresy, withcraft, and a variety of other accusations by the religious and civil authorities.

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09 Sep 10 - 06:13 PM (#2983481)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Keith,

Its a bit soon to start blaming Moslems for things that they might or might not do.

The issue here is about Book burning plain and simple.

The context is that of the no ground zero non mosque being built in New York.

The intent is not just the ministers, but the medias to see how much support he might get.

If enough attention is drawn to this and enough of a fuss is brewed up, we may find that there are many people across America who join in, if not on site, then in seperate simultaneous events.

I hope its a damp squib, but I'm angry that this stiry is running.

I'm also angry that you have managed to find a way of blaming, and being pissed off with Moslems for their attitude, when that isn't what initiated this story, but is what this story is intended to initiate.

I am also angry that you are prepared to generalize about how Moslems feel, yet have probably not spoken to one single Moslem about it, instead probably relying on reports about "how moslems are reacting" - I'd bet fifty quid if the bookies were taking bets!


Keith - the issue isn't how oversensitive moslems are, the issue - as pretty clearly stated in the thread title and in peoples posts - is a man making a statement by burning the Koran.


You have stated "Other religions would just shrug off such an insult.
They will kill people.
That is the real problem."


So in your view, The real problem is that Moslems will kill people.


Sounds like you are very much on the same page as the reverend.

---

09 Sep 10 - 06:17 PM (#2983484)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

From Fox News online:

President Obama added his condemnation in an interview that aired earlier Thursday, urging Jones to "listen to those better angels" and call off the protest. He called the plan a "stunt" and a "recruitment bonanza for Al Qaeda," warning that it could lead to "serious violence" in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"I just hope he understands that what he's proposing to do is completely contrary to our values," Obama said in the ABC interview. "I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women in uniform who are in Iraq, who are in Afghanistan."

FWIW, at the moment Jones says he has cancelled the burning project because the imam has cancelled the "Ground Zero" project in its planned location.

The imam says he did not promise any such thing, only that he is available to talk.

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09 Sep 10 - 06:29 PM (#2983488)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"FWIW, at the moment Jones says he has cancelled the burning project because the imam has cancelled the "Ground Zero" project in its planned location."


In other words ... the right wing in America says ... get your greasy Moslem hands off our land or we'll begin a capaign of hatred and intimidation all over America and our media will draw disproportionate attention to it until you back down.



I say change the plans ... don't build the community centre ... build a fucking Mosque and stick a louspeaker on the minaret to call the faithful to prayer 7 times a day!

Prayers can be said for all the Moslems who were in the towers and surrounding area when they fell as an act of remembrance for the innocent victims of terror.

And prayers can be said for people like Keith who have no fucking idea how Most Moslems think.

---

09 Sep 10 - 06:49 PM (#2983499)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

Seems to me to fall under Oliver Wendell Holmes' classic statement on freedom of speech....Free speech doesn't give you the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theater. Glad he seems to be backing down.

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09 Sep 10 - 07:13 PM (#2983511)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: paula t

Thanks for the people who have taken the trouble to help me with the question I posed earlier.(Sorry about the spelling typo. Just spotted it. I must start wearing my glasses!) I've only just got back home after a rehearsal. I wasn't ignoring you.

At least it looks as though he might back down. I think he has perhaps realised it's not such a good career move as he had originally thought!

---

09 Sep 10 - 07:34 PM (#2983525)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

The one good thing that could come from this is that the Muslim people will know that most sensible people - irrespective of race or religion - are against this and have shown so in their comments.

As I said earlier in the thread, the two Muslim people I chatted to yesterday had a good appreciation of the fact that this is not what most people want or that they agree with it. They, like all of us, just hoped it would not happen and that no-one would get injured as an outcome.

mp

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09 Sep 10 - 07:39 PM (#2983527)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

The one good thing that could come from this is that the Muslim people will know that most sensible people - irrespective of race or religion - are against this and have shown so in their comments.

The question in my mind is whether most Muslim people will hear about the good side of the story -- the huge outcry and the fact that the guy (apparently) has backed down. Good news doesn't have the legs that bad news does, and ability to get any decent news in some parts of the Arab world, at least, appears to be deficient.

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09 Sep 10 - 07:54 PM (#2983534)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ron Davies

"lighten up".   Whatever you say.

Look, this "pastor"--who as you can see earlier in the thread has been tossed out of the church he headed in Germany because of his bigotry and manipulation -- (possibly also financial 'irregularity')---is basically shouting fire in a crowded theatre. No "free expression" issue here.

And he should be treated accordingly.    No excuses for him--or stupid facile suggestions that Moslems should take it easy. Time to live in the real world.

He's been denied a permit to burn.    Therefore the fire department should show up at his "church"--along with the police.   If he does start to set fire to Korans, the fire department should put it out immediately.    And he should be arrested for violating fire laws, disturbance of the peace, and anything else anybody can think of. He should be billed for all costs. High bond if possible.

It's going to be a media circus, so let the media capture this.   Let the videos which Moslems all over the world see be scenes of the fire department putting out the fire.
And the "pastor" being arrested and taken away. A psychological evaluation also appears appropriate.

If he wants to declare himself a martyr, let him. I think we can live with that.

---

09 Sep 10 - 08:01 PM (#2983542)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here's Al Jazeera's story about the latest developmentsw - US pastor calls off Quran burning

As I understand it, Al Jazeera'S NEW2S COVERAGE, ON TEH NET AND O

---

09 Sep 10 - 08:05 PM (#2983545)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ron Davies

Sorry I typed "stupid". Meant to type "brilliant".

Good to hear he's seen reason.

As I said, if he had not, the burning should have been prevented--and he should have been arrested.

---

09 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM (#2983546)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Stringsinger

Keith, no one should lighten up over such a serious issue as this. Not subscribing to a religion or being critical of it is one thing but book burning is nothing to dismiss as
"light".

Book burning is a serious breach of principle. In the US, we are free to read whatever
we want without it being burnt. This is true with Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto,
Rush Limbaugh's or any other book.

Personally, I think more people ought to be familiar with the Qu'ran. This so-called "pastor"
is obviously not.

I may not agree with many books but to burn them is admitting that
they have a kind of power over the minds of the ones with the matches.

---

09 Sep 10 - 08:23 PM (#2983554)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

"The one good thing that could come from this is that the Muslim people will know that most sensible people - irrespective of race or religion - are against this and have shown so in their comments."

I truly wish this was so but it's not reflected in many of the web sites on line - or maybe the people who contribute to hate speech are not the most 'sensible'? - either way there is a great deal of hatred and lust for revenge out there amongst so called 'Christians'

some comments taking 'a stand against liberals'

"I also think we should have bombed Mecca on 9-12-01, and we should have turned the entire region to glass"

"I am a combat vet and I say we need to stop hiding in corners whenever it concerns the camel screwers. They threaten us all the time all over the world so we have the right to do the same. Fuck them, we will not bow to a pedophile and fake muslim god."

etc etc etc

---

09 Sep 10 - 09:55 PM (#2983608)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

McGrath, thanks for the link; it's good to see what coverage is available through Al Jazeera. I started a music thread based on an article to which your link led me, about West African music.

Emma, for every one of those you can find, there are others who are the opposite including VoteVets an org. of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans.

Fooles, thanks for the link on FB.

---

09 Sep 10 - 10:35 PM (#2983622)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bobert

Ahhhhhh... If we're gonna burn anything??? Make it "evidence"...

(wink, wink...)

Know what I mean, Vern???

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:02 PM (#2983638)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,erbert

did ya hear about the really dumb fanatic redneck pastor
who went nuts in a vegetarian health food store
and set fire to a shelf load of Quorn ..???

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM (#2983642)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ron Davies

It may not be over.

"Pastor" Jones now says he was "lied to", thought he had a deal with the imam behind the "Ground Zero" mosque--which is not in fact at "Ground Zero", and is in fact more of a YMCA with church (analogy)..   But at any rate, the deal supposedly was that the "mosque" would be moved to another location in exchange for cancelling the Koran burning.

This deal, of course, was in his head, and nowhere else.

So the police and fire department in Gainesville should be ready--just in case the dear "Pastor" gets another vision.

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:24 PM (#2983646)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,erbert

if within the next 48 hours this malevolent "Pastor" Jones
is suddenly & mysteriously vaporised by a bolt of lightning

I will seriously re-evaluate my Agnosticism.....

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:28 PM (#2983649)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ron Davies

Curiouser and curiouser.

Now it seems Donald Trump was also ready to ride to the rescue and buy out the imam so the "mosque" could be moved to another location.

Or maybe just so he could be in the headlines one more time.

Scholars bicker.

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:30 PM (#2983651)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

Oddly enough, nobody in New York City seems to give a damn about the whole mosque issue....I guess it threatens civilization as they know it in DC, Iowa and Alaska.

---

09 Sep 10 - 11:38 PM (#2983655)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ron Davies

Supposedly Trump lives in Trump Towers in NYC--if he's ever home.

---

10 Sep 10 - 12:08 AM (#2983663)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: LadyJean

Somebody should remind that Dipstick Jones, that the numero uno sin in the Christian tradition is PRIDE.

He is putting on this display to make himself famous. If that isn't pride, I don't know what is.

---

10 Sep 10 - 12:59 AM (#2983689)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

if within the next 48 hours this malevolent "Pastor" Jones
is suddenly & mysteriously vaporised by a bolt of lightning

I will seriously re-evaluate my Agnosticism.....

So, what, striking the Touchdown Jesus statue with lightning wasn't good enough for you?

---

10 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM (#2983699)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, I disagree that this is about book burning.
If an obscure pastor with a tiny congregation in a tiny church burned On The Origin Of Species, it would not be a story because there would be no consequence.
I am sure it has actually happened many times.
This is a story because everyone knows there will be violent consequences.
Do not pretend to believe I meant that all moslems will kill.
I assert that some will, as they did over cartoons in an obscure Danish newspaper.

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:51 AM (#2983720)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Hrothgar

Maybe he's not as silly as he sounds.

I reckon this bloke is on a good little earner here. He will have fruit loops all over the country sending him money, wanting to join his church, etc., etc.

He might even have shares in a company that prints Korans.

... or do I have the wrong approach?

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM (#2983722)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mousethief

I think the "Fire in a crowded theatre" analogy is off. More comparable is yelling "go ahead and shoot him I dare you" to a nutjob who is holding a gun to your neighbour's head. Then claiming, "Hey, I didn't shoot him. Don't look at me" when your neighbour gets his brains splattered onto the lawn.

---

10 Sep 10 - 03:19 AM (#2983731)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Hrothgar, you are right.
Extremists, fundamentalists and racists everywhere will have noticed how an obscure nobody can become headline news world wide.
We can not stop nutters burning Korans.

---

10 Sep 10 - 05:37 AM (#2983780)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

Keith,

How did this get into the papers?

Who put it there?

Why?

Who gave this guy all the attention?

Moslems?

Did Moslems know about him before or after the story was broken?

Was it predictable that Moslems "might" find it upsetting?

Was it predictable the non-Moslems "might" find it upsetting?

Is it predictable that wackos across America may well show support?

Who benefits from turning this into a political football and stiirring up fear and resentment.



You want the answer?

Its fucking obvious!

---

10 Sep 10 - 05:46 AM (#2983783)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox, "moslems" is not the answer to any of your questions, but it is the predictable reaction of many moslems that makes the story newsworthy.
If it were any other book, we would still have never heard of this twat.

---

10 Sep 10 - 06:11 AM (#2983804)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

In the case of the cartoons, muslims have been accused of publicising them to the otherwise unaware muslim world.

"Nonetheless, the Danish imams were sharply criticised by their own prime minister, Anders Rasmussen, for touring the Middle East with a 43-page dossier outlining what they called the racism and Islamophobia suffered by Muslims in Denmark.

Mr Rasmussen said he was "speechless", especially after it emerged that the dossier contained three extra and highly obscene images the delegates said were sent to Danish Muslims as hate mail."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/denmark/1509887/How-clerics-spread-hatred-over-cartoons.html

---

10 Sep 10 - 06:57 AM (#2983818)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"but it is the predictable reaction of many moslems that makes the story newsworthy."

No it isn't Keith.

You are the only person who has gone on about that.

Everyone else I know thinks its about the intolerant religious right in the USA and their current offensive.

And believe me .. offensive is the right word for at least two reasons!


Boise,

"I don't seem to be able to find a thread here supporting these facts."

that is because your digestive tract was accidentally put in upside down so that when you catch a cold you need a colonic.

---

10 Sep 10 - 07:10 AM (#2983820)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

The intolerant religious right in USA is not globally newsworthy.
Nor are their antics, until now.
One obscure member has hit on a way to wind up the entire moslem world.
Newsworthy.

---

10 Sep 10 - 07:26 AM (#2983823)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

I think the thread is turning in an 'ugly' direction.

Naming all the things that Moslems have done that are bad is not going to make this man's cause right. For every Moslem that has done something wrong there must be hundred's of thousands that have not. This man's 'stunt' has not just upset Moslems, it has upset all sensible people who wish for peace and who are fed up of relatives and friends ending up in body bags.

You can quote *some* Muslims who have burned flags but please try not to blame all Moslems for their actions. No more than the Moslems should blame us for this man's proposed actions.

Two wrongs never will make a right. Almost suggesting that this man should be allowed to do what he wanted because similar things have been done on the other side will never make for peace nor make sense.

'We' are the ones who are supposed to be trying to show the world that we wish for peace and that our ways are good. When has revenge ever done any good?

mp

---

10 Sep 10 - 07:40 AM (#2983827)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

"Emma, for every one of those you can find, there are others who are the opposite"

Kat, I'm quite aware that there are many people opposed to this proposed deliberately provocative action , on Facebook for example a protest group has now 252,572 members

While the very disturbing comments, such as the ones I quoted, may represent the views of a minority - according to Rev. Michael Kinnamon "only one corner of the Christian world." - it is, nevertheless, a strident hate fuelled minority and it is surely unwise to simply dismiss such emotive bigotry

Two years ago a similar protest by Fred Phelps passed without almost no attention
Why exactly is there such a media bandwagon at this time?

History reminds us that in periods of economic problems the media and mainstream politicians, as well as individual citizens, can easily latch on to fear of the 'other' even fellow citizens who may only 'look muslim'!

For example I read that

In Tennessee, while campaigning for the Republican nomination for governor in his state, Lt. Gov. Ron Ramsey suggested arguably Islam is less a religion than "a nationality, way of life, or cult, whatever you want to call it" and, as such, may not be protected by the First Amendment.

and that

"Voters in Oklahoma this fall are being asked in a referendum to ban the use of Sharia, or Islamic, law in the state's courts, even though there has never been one instance of Sharia law being cited or used in the U.S., nor any request for Sharia law to be used in any court in the U.S."

Commenting on this journalist Ed Brayton said
"Another example of pure, unadulterated demagoguery. And you can bet it will work."

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM (#2983872)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

{Muslims} have been the cause of the largest loss of American lives within the last nine years.

No, that honor goes to George W. Bush.

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:21 AM (#2983873)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"The intolerant religious right in USA is not globally newsworthy."

Wrong.

They are under close scrutiny, as is America, to see just how deep their influence is in American politics.

This is all in the context of the non-ground zero non-mosque.

The fact that its Moslems is irrelevant.

A specific demographic in the USA is being turned into a scapegoat for Americas woes.

The queston is, will America take the sane line and refuse to allow that kind of politics to dictate policy, or will it pander to Islamophobes.


Keith.

Islamophobia is a big issue in the UK and in the USA.

In our media, Moslems are pigeonholed, homogenized and singled out in a way that no other demographic is.


Once again, you purport to be neutral yet align yourself with the political right.

In that consistent point, You are completely dishonest.


A man wants to burn the Koran and your response is to criticize Moslems.

Get a life!

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:38 AM (#2983883)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

It ALWAYS depends on the reaction of the "injured" party.

And it depends on whose books are being burned.

"Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses

Published June 18, 2007 by:
Kimberly West

After defeating their rivals in Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement, Muslim extremists are focusing their attacks on Christians in Gaza City. Christians in Gaza City have issued an appeal to the international community and a plea for protection against the increased attacks by Muslim extremists.

Father Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza's Latin church, told the AP that Muslims have ransacked, burned and looted a school and convent that are part of the Gaza Strip's small Romany Catholic community. He told the AP that crosses were broken, damage was done to a statue of Jesus, and at the Rosary Sister School and nearby convent, prayer books were burned.

Gunmen used the roof of the school during the fighting, and the convent was "desecrated," Mussalem told the AP.

"Nothing happens by mistake these days," he said.

Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.

Catholic Online reports that the heads of Christian churches in the Holy Land have urged both sides to put aside their weapons, noting that the infighting diverted international attention from the national goal of Palestinian independence.

"This domestic fighting where brother draws his weapon against brother is detrimental to all the aspirations of achieving security and stability for the Palestinian people," they said. "In the name of the one and only God as well as in the name of each devastated Palestinian, many of whom are still dying, we urge our brothers in the Fatah and Hamas movements to listen to the voice of reason, truth and wisdom."

One young woman told the Catholic News Service that she was concerned the Islamic extremists would "enforce a strict dress code, forcing women to wear veils and robes." One Christian teenager spoke to the Catholic News Service on the condition that her name not be used. She said the days of fighting had been "very difficult" but they were "OK now."
"


So, can we isolate and marginalize ALL those who act as the Rev Jones did???

---

10 Sep 10 - 10:03 AM (#2983894)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox,
"A man wants to burn the Koran and your response is to criticize Moslems."

I criticised the "man" in the most explicit of terms.
I also criticize the killing that some thought justified by the cartoons.
Don't you Lox?
I am also critical of those who think violence is justified by the actions of this twat.
Aren't you Lox?

---

10 Sep 10 - 10:07 AM (#2983900)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Christians burning The Koran.
Muslims buring The Bible.

There is no difference.

All that it shows is their are racist extremists in both religions.


True Christians are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.
True Muslims are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.

Those who seek to use religion to preach hate will do exactly that, on all sides, no matter what name the religion may have.

The Crazy Pastor is into Control and Idolisation, not of God, but of himself. Those who's religion preaches fear are purely into brainwashing...

There are little children in Iran who apparently are taught to spit on the American Flag each day, there were Muslim extremists in Gaza in 2007 who burnt Bibles, there's a crazy preacher in the US who wants to burn The Koran...

Those who want to hate, will do so.
Those who don't want to hate, will also do so.

Religion is no different from any other walk of life. It's about 'teams' with 'God' as the manager, allegedly, but of course, their God is controlled by the Corporate Directors of each team, who get him to fit in with their warped outlook on life.

I have always believed that the true 'God' is inside each and every one of us, without team name, without rules and regulations, other than Peace and Love. My 'God' needs no holy books to be read aloud by unholy men..My 'God' simply requires an acceptance of all Peoples, of all Faiths, from all backgrounds.


(Apart from those Bloomin' Corporate Bastards who want to buy Dover, of course!) LOL ;0)

---

10 Sep 10 - 10:09 AM (#2983901)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Burning Bad Grammar is going to be the name of my new book! ;0) (Oops!)

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:06 AM (#2983937)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bonzo3legs

This guy is just a crazy preacher, the type that appears in many songs.

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:07 AM (#2983938)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

I do like this persons attitude!

"Philp will tell Wyoming Highway Patrol officers stationed at the Capitol of his plans. If there is a policy against burning, he plans to rip up the copy and throw it in a garbage can. The burning would move to a private business.

Church members said they did not know about Philp's plans when they set up their event. They found out from a reporter on Wednesday, Lightsey said.

They will meet at 10 a.m. Saturday at the church, 3005 Thomes.

*********************************************************************
If the two groups cross paths, "maybe we'll take them to lunch or something," said Mohammed Salih. He is a Cheyenne Muslim who will join in the Unitarians' event."
*********************************************************************

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2010/09/09/news/18local_09-09-10.txt

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:24 AM (#2983953)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

"There are little children in Iran who apparently are taught to spit on the American Flag each day"

May I please request the source for this?

btw - Dover is not for sale LOL!

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:44 AM (#2983972)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

Bruce, which one?

There is a good op/ed piece, imo, HERE.

Emma, do you have any examples of Phelps burning copies of the Koran? I know he is met, always, with counter-demonstrators whenever he rants and raves against gays/lesbians/etc., but I've heard nothing of him doing something like the idiot in FL proposed. The latter seems to be a first and, I hope, a one off. Phelps is ongoing and met with resistance and frankly, doesn't deserve the coverage, nor did the FL guy, imo.

kat

---

10 Sep 10 - 12:17 PM (#2983995)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

As I mentioned kat, it is reported that the occasion apparently went pretty much unnoticed at the time

Here is one recent reference

"One of those angry at a Florida preacher's plans to mark Sept. 11 by setting fire to copies of the Quran is Shirley Phelps Roper, a leader of the Westboro Baptist Church.

While she joins Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Gen. David Petraeus, the White House, Afghan President Hamid Karzai and many more, Phelps-Roper, Fred Phelps' lawyer daughter, is hardly a voice for religious tolerance.

Her irritation Wednesday was not that the Rev. Terry Jones and his Dove World Outreach Center's planned bonfire would offend Muslims worldwide and probably increase the danger to American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It's that in 2008 she and her father's Topeka flock set fire to a Quran in plain view on a Washington, D.C., street and nobody seemed to care.

"We did it a long time before this guy," Phelps-Roper said by telephone from a street corner in downtown Chicago, scene of the latest Westboro picket — against Jews this time, not gays.

The difference could be that in 2008 many news media outlets had decided to ignore the group's routine of spewing hatred at funerals of fallen American soldiers.

So when Fred Phelps, calling Muhammad a "pedophilic gigolo," went online and invited people to attend the burning, most stayed away."

By Donald Bradley and Rick Montgomery | The Kansas City Star Via McClatchy News:


It has also been reported that Fred Phelps posted on his website that he already burned the Koran in 2008 and that he will do so again if the Florida preacher backs down.
I confess I couldn't bring myself to confirm this by hitting on his website

"In the 90's, when Westboro Church began launching their now infamous anti-gay pickets, pushing their "God Hates Fags" website and anti-homosexual views, they were able to get easy media access due to the novelty of the events.
But as the media began to ignore them, the church had to escalate their actions, leading to pickets of military events, allegedly pro-gay schools and art events, and even the funerals of the Minnesota bridge collapse victims.

Even then, few media would cover their schemes, leaving them mostly to themselves….

But it's become a much more hostile environment these days, with both racial and religious intolerance escalating -- an environment that plays perfectly for the agenda of thinly disguised hate groups."

From Care2 website

Shirley Phelps-Roper says she thinks Jones will fold under the building pressure.
"They'll browbeat him and he'll back down at the last minute," she said.
"He's an apologist. He doesn't serve God."

---

10 Sep 10 - 01:21 PM (#2984033)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Ebbie

I echo katlaughing's question, bb: Which man's attitude do you "like"? Duncan Philp or Mohammed Salih?

Incidentally, we have a couple of confusing names floating around. Duncan Philp is not Fred Phelps.

Man. There is nothing like a thirst for notoriety to bring out the loonies; the problem is that loonies can instigate chaos as quickly as the erudite.

---

10 Sep 10 - 01:29 PM (#2984036)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: beardedbruce

I really thought that it was obvious- NOTE THE STARS!


*********************************************************************
If the two groups cross paths, "maybe we'll take them to lunch or something," said Mohammed Salih. He is a Cheyenne Muslim who will join in the Unitarians' event."
*********************************************************************



Mr. Salih is to be applauded. He is far more "Christian" in his response than most of the posters HERE.

---

10 Sep 10 - 01:54 PM (#2984051)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

Thanks for the clarification, Bruce. I actually agree with you!:-)

Emma, thanks for the cite. I had not heard that about Phelps burning a copy of the Koran. It does prove my point, though, that IF the media did NOT cover such things, they would not have the potential the FL idiot did to foment so much hate in the entire world. It would be good if the media and other folks would remember freedom of speech does not guarantee a spot on every second news flash.

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:06 PM (#2984058)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"I also criticize the killing that some thought justified by the cartoons.
Don't you Lox?"

When I see someone supporting killing I'll confront them ... on the appropriate thread.


I am also critical of those who think violence is justified by the actions of this twat.
Aren't you Lox?

When I read a post defending such violence I'll confront it.



In the meantime, this isn't a thread about those things ... you're changing the subject.

Enough with the red herrings.

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:24 PM (#2984068)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

Is it really the case that Americans think of their flag as a sacred object?

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:50 PM (#2984085)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

But Lox, my case from my first post has been that twats like the obscure, irrelevant pastor, doing their twattish things, are always going to be with us.
The problem is the way so many muslims are sure to react to this insult, which other religions seem able to shrug off.
No red herring.
Absolutely on subject.

---

10 Sep 10 - 02:51 PM (#2984087)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ

McGrath, the flag is a symbol of an idea, and most Americans think the idea is a pretty good one.
Some Americans view flag-burning as an assault on the idea, and it outrages them. Most Americans realize that there is a difference between a noble concept and a piece of cloth, and react accordingly.

I find it unbelievable that this petty bible-thumper in Forida has been able to engage legitimate political and religious leaders in high-level meetings through his little hate exercise. He has gained enormous recognition and some completely unwarranted political capital, and to imagine that no one else will attempt to do the same is naive.

---

10 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM (#2984101)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

Exactly, LeeJ. Well-put.

---

10 Sep 10 - 03:12 PM (#2984106)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Paco O'Barmy

Jebus H..... What the f##k has 'Keith of Hertford' done to you all?? Your real enemies are out there in the real world. Look on the bright side, when they finally run out of oil, they will never appear on our TV screens again!

---

10 Sep 10 - 03:23 PM (#2984114)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

The problem is the way so many muslims are sure to react to this insult, which other religions seem able to shrug off.

1] MANY Muslims? You might like to take a look at a few of These Articles. The majority of Muslims are like the majority of Christians, etc...peaceful, tolerant, and appalled at the hate and assumptions made by such statements as the above.

2] Other religions shrug off "this insult" meaning the idiot in FL? I refer you to another article AND statement by religious leaders from across America HERE. They are not shrugging it off.

Regarding your whole statement, do you suggest that any/all insults should be "shrugged off" by groups who are targeted? By that reasoning, we should not have had a civil rights movement.

---

10 Sep 10 - 03:35 PM (#2984118)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

I agree that "The majority of Muslims are like the majority of Christians, etc...peaceful, tolerant, and appalled at the hate ..."
That still leaves many who are not.
Have you seen tonight's news?
The Civil Rights Movement was about civil rights.
No one has a right never to be insulted.

It is despicable and wrong to deliberately insult a religious group.
It is not acceptable for a religious group to resort to violence when it happens.

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:08 PM (#2984134)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Emma, read 'Not Without My Daughter' by betty Mahmoody. She was married to an Iranian American, a surgeon who'd lived in the USA for decades, but he returned to Iran when one of his family was ill, if I remember correctly, can't find the book at present...

After the visit he decided to return once again, this time taking his daughter with him. He did not return her, nor did he come back himself. The story, now a film with Sally Field in, follows Betty's journey to get her daughter back again. She went to hell and back.

She was forced to send her little girl to the local school, very much against her wishes, and there, before the start of every lesson, the children were taken into a room which had a United States Flag painted on the floor, and they were taught to spit on it. She was totally shocked, but then she was shocked about much of what she saw, heard and experienced, whilst in Iran.

I worked with Muslims from all over the Middle East. Some were absolutely wonderful, kind, thoughtful, polite and regal...from Princes to Paupers, quite literally. Some though, were utter bastards who loathed Westerners and all we stand for.

But then, some Christians loathe Muslims and all they stand for too...so the See-Saw of Hatred is sadly, always balanced just so....

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:09 PM (#2984136)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Amos

Der SPiegel has an interview with Jone's daughter, who has opposed thep[lan from the beginning. An excerpt:

"SPIEGEL ONLINE: Ms. Jones, your father wants to burn hundreds of Korans at his church in Florida on Saturday. What do you think of the plan?


Emma Jones: I am shocked and condemn it. When I hear what he is currently saying in interviews about his motivations, he seems like a stranger to me.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Have you asked him not to go through with it?

Jones: Yes. I sent him an e-mail. I wrote: Papa, don't do it. I actually haven't had any contact with him since he left Cologne in 2008. But because I think his plan is so awful, I implored him to consider the consequences -- not just for him but for the whole world.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Has he answered?

Jones: No. But I didn't think he would.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why do you think your father sees Islam in such a hostile way?

Jones: It is relatively new. For years he led a church in Cologne that was, at first, merely Bible oriented, but later it began to have sect-like elements. Just before he left Cologne in 2008 and returned to the US, he began saying that Islam is getting the upper hand and that we can't allow it. But I didn't grow up with this radicalism.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How did you grow up?

Jones: We were raised in a very Christian household, and it was very strict. But also very social. We received visits from people from all over the world and were open to everything.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Former members of his church have spoken of psychological cruelty, forced work, financial irregularities and calls to beat ones own children.

Jones: My mother, Lisa Jones, died in 1996 of a heart attack. Shortly thereafter, my father remarried and I left the church at age 17. In 2005, he offered me a job as a bookkeeper in a company belonging to the church, which sold donated furniture on eBay. I gained a new insight, and realized that my father preached things and did things that I didn't find to be in accordance with the Bible at all. He demanded that people completely obey him and his second wife, Sylvia. Both are extremely obsessed with power. I saw genuine religious delusion. A typical indication of a sect. Both of them wanted to control everything."...

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM (#2984140)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Well, no surprises there then, eh, Amos? :0) What is so terrible is the way the dingbats of the Press have picked up on it worldwide and turned this into a massive planet problem.

It's not only the crazy preacher who's lost it, but the vast majority of the dumbed down human race who have no idea, or care, of the consequences of their actions...

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:33 PM (#2984147)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

It is time for everyone to read up on Melungeons again and see that we have had a Muslim presence (I think..the history is confusing) from the earliest times of America..which is good of course. There are links to Turkey, Portugal etc...DNA links to Syria...it is all confusing and complex but it is being unraveled.

And as someone raised Catholic (by a rabid convert mother from Baptist religion), we were not raised to be tolerant. We were raised by the Catholic church to be probably what would be viewed as condescending now to "pagans", which to us were a form of Protestants, and we ransomed them with our milk money so they could be baptised. We were raised to be aloof from Protestants and to not go where they were...like the YMCA swimming pool..which eventually we could go to with permission but we could not use the crafts there because they might try to convert us. This was official parish (read missionary parish of Ireland) policy. We were raised to be absolutely terrified of Masons more than any other group. We had no teachings at all about Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc. They were fairly benign subgroups of the Protestants as far we could tell. mg

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM (#2984149)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

just google Melungeon and Muslim.

Here is a book index..

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/mar2004.htm

---

10 Sep 10 - 04:44 PM (#2984151)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

"Emma, read 'Not Without My Daughter' by betty Mahmoody"

about the film...

The movie was based on a book with the same title, written by Betty Mahmoody and William Hoffer and based on Betty's version of events. The screenplay was written by David W. Rintels. The film was directed by Brian Gilbert and filmed at GG Studios, Neve Ilan, Israel and in Atlanta, Georgia.

"Not Without My Daughter does not play fair with its Muslim characters.
If a movie of such a vitriolic and spiteful nature were to be made in America about any other ethnic group, it would be denounced as racist and prejudiced."
— Film critic Roger Ebert

Caryn James of The New York Times, in a review, states that the movie
"exploits the stereotype of the demonic Iranian...it is an utter artistic failure, and its reliance on cultural stereotype is a major cause". Moody, she writes, seems to be a "pure product of his culture, a mysterious, misogynist Easterner...the film views fanaticism as the Iranian national character".

A review in the Los Angeles Times described the movie as "unbalanced and distorted" which "fails to distinguish between the (Iranian) state and the people

"In response to Not Without My Daughter, a Finnish documentary, titled Without My Daughter was made by director Alexis Kouros.
It is composed of interviews with Dr. Mahmoody regarding his life in Iran and attempts to contact his daughter Mahtob again.
Kouros said that the aim of the 90-minute documentary was to "show the lies in the American film and present the real story behind" what turned into an acrimonious custody battle for Mahtob Mahmoody"

Don't think I'll bother thanks ..... maybe something a little more objective?

---

10 Sep 10 - 05:01 PM (#2984158)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

Another article from Melungeon site. There are conferences every year or two.

http://www.melungeons.com/articles/august2003.htm

And President Lincoln's mother was apparently of Melungeon descent. It almost seems to me I have read that President Obama's was as well. I think it is possible that I have some on my mother's Williams side, who were from Georgia, and have the coppery toned skin. mg

---

10 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM (#2984159)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: gnu

I hope THOUSANDS of people attend, surround these idiots and drown them out with song. Got a few songs in mind. First one is, `We Shall Overcome`.

---

10 Sep 10 - 07:20 PM (#2984237)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

No. I must politely refuse your request. We are not presently at war with a particular religion. In Iraq we are/were at war with a demonic person and his government. I like to think the majority of Iraqis are on our side at this point and appreciate our efforts on their behalf to rid them of a monster. Afghanistan is a more complex problem but I do not see it as being at war against them, but rather in a complicated situation alongside them. ANything can go topsy turvey at any point of course. But I do not burn books of another religion, I do not support those who do. I do not blame Muslims for 9/11. And yes, I did put my own life on the line some time ago so I feel perfectly at ease expressing my policies here. mg

---

10 Sep 10 - 07:24 PM (#2984239)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mauvepink

Some of those Americans that were killed on 9th September WERE Muslims and many Muslims have also died since that date who were also innocent.

In the interest of fairness this needs to be pointed out

mp

---

10 Sep 10 - 08:06 PM (#2984257)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: John P

One of the things I find most bizarre about this whole thing is that he calls his church the "Dove World Outreach Center". Maybe he already burned his dictionary . . .

Guest Boise, as a sign of respect for all the Muslims killed in the 9/11 attacks, could you please refrain from referring to "Muslims" as if they were all the same? As a sign of respect for all the non-Christians killed by Timothy McVeigh, would you please refrain from ever going to church on April 19?

I'm an American. I think that September 11 is a great day to have a conversation about religious intolerance. Can we start with yours?

---

10 Sep 10 - 08:30 PM (#2984265)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Alice

John P, thanks for writing what I was thinking.

---

10 Sep 10 - 08:52 PM (#2984276)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lonesome EJ

Well said, John.

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:25 PM (#2984284)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: bobad

Muslims and Islam Were Part of Twin Towers' Life

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:53 PM (#2984291)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

The more religious some people are the more they are against freedom of religion. Why do these "people of faith" virtually turn against the freedom of religion?

This is because they worship the idol of their own convictions regarding their one true religion. "Worshipping the idol of their beliefs" is a working definition of bigotry.
This is the trap of idolitry that Moses warned against.
The golden calf is an allagory that is often lost to fundamentalists.
Idolitry can easily trap people. This is why pictures of holy people were once considered bad by Christians. They were the antiiconoclasts.

In Islam pictures of people in their place of worship is strictly banned (with the exception of one Mosque in Turkey which was once a Byzantine church. THis is why some Muslims still consider a picture cartoon of "Mo" to be anathma - BUT I BET THEY DON'T KNOW WHY. They haven't the foggiest.

fOR ME THE BEST WAY TO EXPERIENCE TRUE RELIGION OR SPIRITUALITY IS TO BE FREE FROM IT. With independence and diversity one can experience mysteries and sublime love with magnificent freedom.

I can see more clearly with freedom than being a slave to religion or foggy idolitry. If you have ever had an epiphany (not epistomy) you will recall the freedom that it inspired.

---

10 Sep 10 - 09:58 PM (#2984293)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

BTW
The core of Masonic beliefs is to be free of any one religion to attain universal knowledge and enlightenment beyond the bigotry of a single exclusive religion.

---

10 Sep 10 - 10:10 PM (#2984298)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

From: mousethief - PM
Date: 10 Sep 10 - 02:58 AM

I think the "Fire in a crowded theatre" analogy is off. More comparable is yelling "go ahead and shoot him I dare you" to a nutjob who is holding a gun to your neighbour's head. Then claiming, "Hey, I didn't shoot him. Don't look at me" when your neighbour gets his brains splattered onto the lawn.


Aptly put

Yet this is what mainstream Republicans (gingrich, Bachman, Palin, Beck...) are saying as they light the oily rags of racism and religious intolerence, just to incite people to fight against a populist movement and President and restore the corporate status quo. Religous wars and race wars are the easiest conflagrations to ignite by self consumed despots.

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:15 PM (#2984313)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

JohnP, I agree, well-put. Thanks.

Donuel, yes, I agree with you, too.

---

10 Sep 10 - 11:47 PM (#2984325)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

I if lived in Gainesville, Florida, I'd be pretty proud of the community. Here's why: CLICK.

---

11 Sep 10 - 12:42 AM (#2984339)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Stilly River Sage

It comes down to a first amendment right, and as abhorrent as his message is, Mr. Jones has the right to say what he wants, unless it can be proven to be hate speech. (Fingers crossed).

The answer is simple. Put down the cameras, put down the pens. Don't let his vile message see light of day. The day we send the National Guard to stop his free speech, we all lose.

SRS

---

11 Sep 10 - 03:04 AM (#2984372)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Of course, the REAL story should be that a pile of head cases are threatening to kill people because somebody says that he's going to burn a book! That's the real madness of the situation!

---

11 Sep 10 - 03:36 AM (#2984383)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish

Emma, may I politely suggest that you read the book, rather than watch the film or listen to what critics have to say. Betty Mahmoody lived through deep trauma. She is not anti-Muslim, having been happily married to her Iranian husband for many years before her life exploded as it did. However, because of her daughter being taken to Iran and not returned, she set out on a journey that blew her apart, emotionally. It was not just the little children being taught to spit on the American flag that upset her, but the cruelty she saw all around her in so many places.

And of course, Iran, at this very moment in time, is under the watchful eyes of the world which waits in horrified amazement to see whether the rulers of Iran are going ahead with the stoning of a woman...

Iranian woman awaiting sentence to be carried out

There is a GREAT deal that is wrong inside the religion called Islam...and we need to hear the many Good Guys of Islam shouting out about that very fact...but sadly, so many keep their voices low, because they're terrified of retribution...That should not be the case...

And it's heartbreaking that on today of all days, this crazy preacher is being given centre stage in New York to spew out his religious hatred. WHY would anyone want his opinion on this? Why would anyone give this nutcase airtime? I cannot believe how mad this world has become, how deeply irresponsible the media has become.

I weep for my planet...

---

11 Sep 10 - 07:00 AM (#2984446)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

"There is a GREAT deal that is wrong inside the religion called Islam...and we need to hear the many Good Guys of Islam shouting out about that very fact...but sadly, so many keep their voices low, because they're terrified of retribution...That should not be the case..."

Indeed Lizzie, but no more wrong that there was with Christianity not too long ago. Many of our stately homes here in the UK have secret rooms where people hid because they were protestant or catholic, depending on which King was on the throne at the time. Still we have troubles when people cannot freely adhere to their own form of Christianity in case they get bombed out, shot or burnt. The quiet voice is not just a thing for Muslims. All around the world there are places where it is very hard to be a Christian and your life could be under threat.

The good guys, and women, of Islam, Christianity, Judaism and all other religions, as well as non-religions, do speak out a message of love and peace. Were we only dealing with them then all would be well for sure.

Christianity has had it's atrocities. Some of what we reap now is because of the atrocities Christians have carried out in the name of God in history. We get leaders who talk of 'just wars' and 'crusades'. Is that not just the same in many ways?

In short. It's not just Islam that is getting things wrong and some of their fear is not just of retribution from the 'insiders' but also retrivution from outsiders too. We would do well to remember that as we sit in our free speech countries being able to voice opinions.

mp

---

11 Sep 10 - 07:37 AM (#2984465)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"the world which waits in horrified amazement to see whether the rulers of Iran are going ahead with the stoning of a woman..."

I hardly think "the world" in much of a position to point fingers over this case. The American government kills criminals every day. The woman in question is supposed to have assisted her lover in murdering her husband. You'd get put to death for that in the States. Electrocution is no less of a state sanctioned atrocity *in my view*, than stoning someone to death. But maybe state sanctioned atrocities aren't so horrifying when it's 'civilised Christian' nations committing them as opposed to 'barbaric Islamic' ones? It would certainly seem so anyway, if one believes the propaganda of the media.

---

11 Sep 10 - 07:43 AM (#2984469)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lox

"But Lox, my case from my first post has been that twats like the obscure, irrelevant pastor, doing their twattish things, are always going to be with us.
The problem is the way so many muslims are sure to react to this insult, which other religions seem able to shrug off."

So we should tolerate Wackos because they will always be around.

But we shouldn't tolerate the anger an offense that many Moslems feel.


Oh - but you were talking about killing.


Like the killing of 3 demonstrators outside a german base in Afghanistan who were protesting the Koran burning.


In fact, how many Westerners have been Killed by Moslems in the last 10 years?

And how many Moslems have been killed by westerners?


Whats the ratio?

100,000 to 1?

Something like that.


No Keith,

Islamophobia is the Issue, and the first three lines of this post seem to indicate that you have a little of that poison in your blood.

---

11 Sep 10 - 08:07 AM (#2984478)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Bonzo3legs

I downloaded a gread Led Zeppelin stereo recording from 15 January 1973 this morning - I'm going to enjoy listening to it very loud!!!

---

11 Sep 10 - 08:31 AM (#2984486)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)

"everyday" wasn't right. In fact it seems that executions have plummeted in the States over the last decade. There are only around half a dozen executions scheduled for this month, including that of Teresa Lewis (also involved in the murder of her husband): Amnesty page

---

11 Sep 10 - 08:41 AM (#2984490)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

Carolyn Jessop wrote 'Escape', a moving autobiographical account of her upbringing in a polygamist Christian sect and later flightin 2003 from that community her husband and subsequent fight to keep her children becoming -
"the first woman ever granted full custody of her children in a contested suit involving the FLDS

Her experiences, however disturbing, have little to do with Christianity but to the culture in which she lived which meant that if a wife left her husband she could not take her child/ren; such is the case in Iran

It is not so long ago, in (Christian) Victorian England, that children of a marriage were considered the 'property' of the husband - it was not until 1891 that a High Court ruling denied the husband the right to imprison his wife in pursuit of his conjugal rights


'Pastor' Terry Jones has probably never read the book he threatened to burn - indeed some may wonder if he has read the Bible's teachings

THE QURAN DOES NOT PRESCRIBE STONING FOR ADULTERY.!

This type this of ancient death sentence by a community, in which no particular person out of the stone throwing group could be held responsible or identified as the one who actually killed the subject is analogous, in this way, to a firing squad is also documented in the Jewish Tradition via the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, and the Talmud, or Jewish Oral Law.

Stoning, a punishment with origins in the hadith, (supplements to and clarifications of the Qur'an by various subsequent adherents) has been categorized by Ayatollah Khomeini as a "secondary" principle. Many scholars question its label as 'hudud',
Moderate Iranian clerics are aware that Ayatollah Khomeini made this distinction between Islamic teachings that are immutable, and "secondary" principles that can be modified according to the Iranian society's changing needs.
Ayatollah Khomeini had specifically instructed Iran's judges to refrain from handing down stoning verdicts.

Although, the Head of the Judiciary of Iran, Ayatollah Shahroudi, mandated that stoning would no longer be practiced in Iran in 2002, the laws were never officially removed from the penal code.
As such, stoning sentences may continue to be handed down by lower judges

Many Muslim countries such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria do not condone stoning.

Malcolm Smart of Amnesty International reports that
"It's actually not very widely used across the Middle East and Islamic world... even in Iran,"

However, extrajudicial "honour killing" stoning continues even among non-Muslims in deeply traditional societies such as Pakistan, Iraq and India.
In Iraq, a 17-year-old girl from the Kurdish Yazidi minority was stoned by a mob in 2007, apparently after she eloped with a Sunni Muslim.


Səkinə Məhəmmədi-Aºtiani, is an Iranian Azeri woman who has been convicted of murder and adultery and has been on 'death row' in Iran since 2006

A campaign by her two children succeeded in halting her imminent execution by HANGING in July 2010, but not in overturning her death sentence
Amnesty International is also fighting her cause on the grounds of an unfair trial

THE MORE YOU HUMILIATE PEOPLE FOR THEIR RELIGION (OR RACE, OR CLASS, OR CASTE, OR LANGUAGE), THE MORE THEY COME TO DEFINE THEMSELVES BY THE THING IMPUGNED.

---

11 Sep 10 - 09:52 AM (#2984504)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox.
"So we should tolerate Wackos because they will always be around."

If they do not break any laws, we have no choice.
No one can stop him or anyone burning a book, or challenging other belief systems.
People living under more repressive regimes find that hard to understand or believe, but would you have it different Lox?

There are equivalent wackos in every community.
We all get insulted.
We do not go on the rampage.

---

11 Sep 10 - 11:11 AM (#2984546)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Emma B says
       "THE MORE YOU HUMILIATE PEOPLE FOR THEIR RELIGION (OR RACE, OR CLASS, OR CASTE, OR LANGUAGE), THE MORE THEY COME TO DEFINE THEMSELVES BY THE THING IMPUGNED"

What do you mean by humiliate? Is, pointing out that threatening to kill people because someone burns a book is just plain stupid, humiliating?

And let's get this straight, does it say in the Koran that if anyone burns the book then they should be put to death?

And, surely, the Koran, like the bible, is open to endless interpretation and is therefore a great breeding ground for nutters!

---

11 Sep 10 - 11:19 AM (#2984548)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

mp, if you read my posts above you'll see that I equate the wrong which lies inside Islam, with the wrong which lies inside Christianity and other religions.

It is all one and the same, and I was not singling out Islam alone. Please understand that. I take offence that you would, or could, think otherwise of me.

From an earlier post of mine:

>>>"I worked with Muslims from all over the Middle East. Some were absolutely wonderful, kind, thoughtful, polite and regal...from Princes to Paupers, quite literally. Some though, were utter bastards who loathed Westerners and all we stand for.

But then, some Christians loathe Muslims and all they stand for too...so the See-Saw of Hatred is sadly, always balanced just so...."<<<

And another of mine:

>>>"Christians burning The Koran.
Muslims buring The Bible.

There is no difference.

All that it shows is their are racist extremists in both religions.


True Christians are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.
True Muslims are kind, peace-loving, compassionate and tolerant.

Those who seek to use religion to preach hate will do exactly that, on all sides, no matter what name the religion may have.

The Crazy Pastor is into Control and Idolisation, not of God, but of himself. Those who's religion preaches fear are purely into brainwashing...

There are little children in Iran who apparently are taught to spit on the American Flag each day, there were Muslim extremists in Gaza in 2007 who burnt Bibles, there's a crazy preacher in the US who wants to burn The Koran...

Those who want to hate, will do so.
Those who don't want to hate, will also do so.

Religion is no different from any other walk of life. It's about 'teams' with 'God' as the manager, allegedly, but of course, their God is controlled by the Corporate Directors of each team, who get him to fit in with their warped outlook on life.

I have always believed that the true 'God' is inside each and every one of us, without team name, without rules and regulations, other than Peace and Love. My 'God' needs no holy books to be read aloud by unholy men..My 'God' simply requires an acceptance of all Peoples, of all Faiths, from all backgrounds."<<<

I needed to put that down, because there has been a campaign in here to try to convince others that I am racist, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Disagree with me, by all means, but please, **never** misrepresent me.


We need to speak out about the wrong inside ALL religions, and the followers of those religions should have the loudest voices.

Thank you.





And here is a wonderful video, brought to my attention by a Palestinian 'friend' over on Facebook.

The Reverend Deborah C.Lindsay on Islamophobia

---

11 Sep 10 - 11:39 AM (#2984551)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Not impressed with the video!
In practice, surely every true Christian should view Islam as an affront to the teachings of the New Testament! Let's begin with false prophets!
And, I've got to laugh when one branch of the Christian church critcises another branch! Get some intelligent perspective - please!

---

11 Sep 10 - 12:59 PM (#2984581)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: BTNG

well the intelligent perspective isn't coming from certain folk here.....
and all this does is give an audience and forum to nutters like the Rev. Jones and to his opposite numbers here in this particular forum (and you know who you are)

---

11 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM (#2984607)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Stringsinger

"What do you mean by humiliate? Is, pointing out that threatening to kill people because someone burns a book is just plain stupid, humiliating?"

From what I gather in hearing from many Muslims is that this statement is a gross overgeneralization and does not apply to every Muslim.

Those, such as Newt Gingrich and others in congress are using this argument to bolster
their intolerance. There are all kinds of religious people who want to kill others. Mental institutions are filled with them.

For example: " on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states
he should be put to death."

For those who curse and blaspheme, "Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them?  Lev.24:10-16. "

There are many references toward violence of this nature in most of the scriptures.
We can't infer, however, that the practice of violence is condoned by everyone who is religious regardless of the cherry picking in the bible, torah or the koran.

It's very difficult to sermonize on this issue. Once you open that can of worms, then it becomes pitting one religious point of view against another.

Reason and logic tells us that scapegoating any religion on the basis of cherry-picking
from scriptures which require an interpretation, often one that disagrees with another,
is futile and indefensible.

---

11 Sep 10 - 01:36 PM (#2984608)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,leeneia

I see that the reverend has changed his mind 'for now.'

Once again a member of the religious right gets millions of dollars of free publicity by being outrageous. (Remember the guy who got all the free publicity by saying that SpongeBob Squarepants is a homosexual?)

Do you suppose journalists understand they are being manipulated and just go along with it to increase circulation? Or are they merely naive?

One thing is for sure - nobody doing something noble or intelligent would get all this free publicity.

---

11 Sep 10 - 01:39 PM (#2984610)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

I think everyone here has been misrepresented on occaision. Some accidently and some deliberatly. The idle attack can be ignored but when it becomes chronic and insidious in baseless demonization you have to fight back overtly or covertly. Most people turn it into a joke or ignore it. Still, a lie can gain a LIFE of its own by people adding adding one f and another slander and another.... So f word the liars and f adders. Forget'em forgive'em or f'em.

So far I have NOT heard mention of the Florida bigot preacher on cable TV news. I have not monitored the AM shock jocks but I assume they are milking lots of on air hate today.

---

11 Sep 10 - 04:01 PM (#2984699)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Don Firth

I remember hearing a talk (not a sermon) given by a Lutheran bishop. He was describing the incident in the Bible in which a woman, "take in adultery" was about to be stoned to death.

As Jesus was about to speak up, someone who was hell-bent on trying to catch Him in contradicting Jewish law came to him and asked, "What say you? Should we stone her or not??

It is said that Jesus reached down and wrote something in the dirt with his finger, then said:

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Everybody looked at each other, then one by one and two by two, they dropped the stones they had gathered and wandered off. At which point, Jesus went to the woman who was cowering against the wall and said, "Go. And sin no more."

The bishop said, "I have long wondered what it was that Jesus wrote in the dirt. The Bible doesn't say. But—I have an idea of what it might have been.

"'Where is the man?'"

Don Firth

---

11 Sep 10 - 04:15 PM (#2984704)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,mg

I always heard that someone did throw a stone and he looked and her and said Mother!!! mg

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11 Sep 10 - 04:40 PM (#2984712)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Emma B

The last reported case of stoning in Iran was in March 2009 when a 30 year old man accused of adultery was executed in the northern city of Rasht.
It was reported that "the consenting woman repented and was spared stoning." although there was no detail given of any other punishment

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11 Sep 10 - 06:30 PM (#2984767)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

As someone has said above, wherin is the difference between stoning, electrocuting, hanging, firing squad, lethal injection etc.??

Ditto 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" or pull the first switch, or trigger, or trap, or hypodermic..........

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11 Sep 10 - 08:02 PM (#2984802)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

To Lizzie

Where did I say I thought wrong of you Lizzie in my reply to something you wrote on this thread? I actually said "indeed Lizzie" which would point to agreement in part rather than thinking "otherwise of you".

You also write "I needed to put that down, because there has been a campaign in here to try to convince others that I am racist, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Disagree with me, by all means, but please, **never** misrepresent me."

My comments were quite general about the statement you made. I did disagree with some of it but where did I misrepresent anything. And last, if not least, at no time did I suggest you were being racist. I am capable of making my own mind up on people without reference to anything others say about them. If you think there is a campaign against you then perhaps you should discuss it with someone who can help here in charge.

Of course, if you can show me that I did say that which you 'accuse me of' then I would happily look at it again but I can assure you that no such intention was intented or in any way aluded to.

Best wishes

mp

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12 Sep 10 - 04:50 AM (#2984938)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Lox,
The last ten years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan have been extensively discussed.
Do not try to relate it to this debate.
It is a change of subject.
A red herring.
Rather than accept that I made a perfectly valid point you thrash around with irrelevancies, and try to claim that I am a far right islamophobe.
Not true.
I made a valid point which you can not counter.

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12 Sep 10 - 08:15 AM (#2985001)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

"Do not try to relate it to this debate."
Still acting as self-appointed policeman - or should it be congratulations on the promotion to site supervisor?
Jim Carroll

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12 Sep 10 - 03:05 PM (#2985192)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: robomatic

This brings to a distillation the triumph of appearance and show over any kind of substance in the greater part of the wars between faith and doctrine. There is a war within Islam which is echoed by the battle between the "true-believers" and the rationalists (and frequently confused by the rationalizers).

This guy has almost no followers and no money, but he can grab on the hemline of the internet and give himself a hoist up to international awareness. People have died in Afghanistan over this already (Afghanis, so far). The 'pastor' himself sounds like a severely confused creature, pulling out of thin air the notion that if he doesn't burn a Qu'ran, then the new proposed Islamic center in New York will be removed.

I am afraid this affair will become symbolic of the conflict and turn Pathos to bathos. Enemies of reason on all sides will have fresh targets to aim at, once more outside of themselves.

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12 Sep 10 - 03:28 PM (#2985207)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, congrats are a little premature as I am still waiting for Joe to confer full editing rights.
You will see some changes then. (What is the holdup Joe?)
Meanwhile, it is only an exhortation, not an order.

Robo, do you think Jones would have had such a response had he thought of burning anyone else's book?

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12 Sep 10 - 03:47 PM (#2985220)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Aw..I wonder if they wait, if they'll get a tax break under 'cap and trade'.

GfS

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12 Sep 10 - 03:56 PM (#2985229)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

Sorry to interrupt your premature exercising of authority - just a little astounded that anbody should think that Afghanistan and Iraq should NOT have anything to do with the proposed burning of the Q'ran, or the Gulf wars, or the invasion of Iran, or the Twin Towers, - incredible!!
There again, crying "thread drift" always was a pretty reliable sign that you were finding yourself on the ropes.
Jim Carroll

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12 Sep 10 - 04:16 PM (#2985251)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, I have made but one point in this whole debate, which no one has refuted.
I notice that, despite jumping in to attack me, you have not tried to refute that point either.
It is just personal with you I think.

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12 Sep 10 - 04:27 PM (#2985256)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

"I notice that, despite jumping in to attack me, you have not tried to refute that point either."
Not attacking you Keith - don't be paranoid now. Just making the point that it is crass to suggest that this latest piece of idiocy hasn't anything to do with everything that has led up to it.
Jim Carroll

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12 Sep 10 - 04:36 PM (#2985264)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

"Just making the point that it is crass to suggest that this latest piece of idiocy hasn't anything to do with everything that has led up to it."

I agree Jim, and I did not suggest that.
I just said this this act of idiocy only made world wide headlines because of the predictable reaction in the muslim world.

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12 Sep 10 - 05:18 PM (#2985303)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

The last ten years of conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan have been extensively discussed.
Do not try to relate it to this debate.
It is a change of subject.
A red herring."
Jim Carroll

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12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM (#2985320)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: The Fooles Troupe

He started a trend ...

Koran and Bible used for smoking

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12 Sep 10 - 05:36 PM (#2985321)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

Oh, and by the way - you are "a far right islamophobe."
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Jim Carroll

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12 Sep 10 - 08:58 PM (#2985437)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: robomatic

Little Hawk's opinion of 09 Sep 10 - 06:04 PM is quite similar to an opinion I've expressed myself. Islam is a younger religion, and can be compared with Christianity of several hundred years ago. And you don't need to go back too far to find Christians beheading non-Christians (and each other) and burning those termed as heretics/ backsliders in fairly large numbers.

It took a long time for Christians to slowly arrive at and pass through the Enlightenment. Nothing has been the same after that. I think Islam is going through an accelerated stage of just that very thing. There's also a strong factor of tribalism being addressed, as many of the aspiring jihadists relate to each other and the world through tribal relations.

There is also a good point to be made that many of the striking issues which drive the violence are not religious, but relating to land ownership, despotic governments, and perceptions of colonialism/ nationalism.

Most of our ancestors were dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, and the process even in the most 'advanced' cultures of the day is not over (viz resistance to Darwinism).

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13 Sep 10 - 01:44 AM (#2985530)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

Robo, another thing that offends muslims is the idea that Islam is an historically backward religion because it is more recent than christianity, itself a comparatively new religion.

Jim, it goes without saying that all events are part of the continuum of history, but to bring up the iraq body count for the millionth time will not advance this debate one iota.
It is a red herring to avoid an awkward argument.

I am not far right and I am no islamophobe.
Name calling is just a personal attack and does nothing to advance the debate either.
Try addressing my argument instead.

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13 Sep 10 - 02:39 AM (#2985539)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: GUEST

I have endeavoured to read my way through all of this thread but it's pretty early in the morning here in the UK so I might not have absorbed everything. For this I apologise.

Beyond all the arguments about the faults of Christianity and Islam, it seems to me that we have a guy from a little, totally unknown church, who has written a book. This probably sold a few copies to members of his own congregation.

Suddenly the whole world knows about him - I wonder how many copies have been bought now, just to see what further drivel he is spouting?

Dollars from someone who has bought the book to throw it in the trash after a glance through it are worth just as much as those from someone who agrees with every word,

Eddie1 (cookieless)

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13 Sep 10 - 04:30 AM (#2985567)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jim Carroll

"Name calling is just a personal attack and does nothing to advance the debate either."
From someone who has no hesitation in resorting to calling those who disagree with him 'Fascist' and sending fake postings, this rings somewhat hollow.
Jim Carroll

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13 Sep 10 - 05:06 AM (#2985580)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do not send fake postings.
The post (singular) was obviously from me and not the guest.
Fair point on the name calling, but I called you fascist because you were expressing fascist views while posing as liberal anti fascist.
I was making a point.
I have never expressed any far right or islamophobic views.

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13 Sep 10 - 02:52 PM (#2985951)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Donuel

If you don;t give me attention I will burn Korans.
next
If you don;t move your Islm center I will burn your scripture.

Copy cats:
If you don't impeach that muslim president I will burn korans and torahs in bacon fat.

If you don't move that mosque I will fuck this goat.

If you don't move MEcca farther away from ground zero I will burn Mohammed.

IF you don't stop making fun of JEsus I will burn bibles.

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13 Sep 10 - 05:07 PM (#2986057)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: dick greenhaus

In a way it's astounding how much power modern technology and communication have given to a very small number of nuts. I include both the 50-person parish in Florida and the maybe hundred or so that make up Al Qaeda. Scary.

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12 Dec 10 - 08:22 AM (#3051685)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

It seems this man may be on UK shores February next year (2011). I sincerely hope not

Terry Jones may be banned from UK

Hope Not Hate are on it and Theresa May seems to be listening

Could any possible good come from him being in Luton? I do suppose though he will get lots more publicity once again :(

mp

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12 Dec 10 - 09:14 AM (#3051720)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: McGrath of Harlow

I can't see them letting this creep into the country.

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12 Dec 10 - 11:58 AM (#3051813)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Fred McCormick

Keep that bastard out of Britain! We've more than enough inflammatory nutters already,without him joining in.

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12 Dec 10 - 02:21 PM (#3051916)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Don Firth

The views of this person, and those of similar ilk, are not worth wasting time to listen to. He's already said more than enough to pinpoint where he's coming from.

Sort of like peering into a septic tank. You already know what's in there, so why bother?

Don Firth

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19 Jan 11 - 05:15 PM (#3078185)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: mauvepink

Terry Jones excluded from UK

Common sense and decency has prevailed!

mp

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21 Mar 11 - 02:32 PM (#3118433)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)

A controversial US evangelical preacher oversaw the burning of a copy of the Koran in a Florida church after finding the Muslim holy book "guilty" of crimes.

The burning was carried out by pastor Wayne Sapp under the supervision of Terry Jones, who last September drew sweeping condemnation over his plan to ignite a pile of Korans on the anniversary of September 11, 2001 attacks.
Sunday


Yesterday's event was presented as a trial of the book in which the Koran was found "guilty" and "executed."

The jury deliberated for about eight minutes. The book, which had been soaking for an hour in kerosene, was put in a metal tray in the centre of the church, and Sapp started the fire with a barbecue lighter.

The book burned for around 10 minutes while some onlookers posed for photos.

Jones had drawn trenchant condemnation from many people, including US President Barack Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, over his plan to burn the Muslim holy book in September.
He did not carry out his plan then and vowed he never would, saying he had made his point.
But this time, he said he had been "trying to give the Muslim world an opportunity to defend their book," but did not receive any answer.

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21 Mar 11 - 02:40 PM (#3118441)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: katlaughing

That is disgusting. What a hypocrite.

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21 Mar 11 - 03:00 PM (#3118452)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Greg F.

Damnation! A hypocritical fundagelical "Christian"[sic] preacher.

Nevver had one of THOSE in the Land Of The Red White & Blue before!

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21 Mar 11 - 03:56 PM (#3118476)
Subject: RE: BS: Burning Korans
From: Jack Campin

I am kinda tempted to make a video in which I burn a Koran wrapped in an American flag.

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