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16 Oct 10 - 12:34 PM (#3008491) Subject: claw hammer guitar From: The Sandman Steve Baughman has a very good video on you tube, however he makes an offensive and inaccurate remark about Travis picking, calling it Prince Charles picking. he is in fact referring to PIEDMONT PICKING of the style of EttaBaker SamMcGhee, Missippi JohnHurt, which is in fact American not English. in fact what he calls clawhammer should really be called Frailing guitar , as very often clawhammer banjo has very little bum ditty, and is often strumless or with very few strums. here is a link to a very good videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIPj2281hn8 mind you those tunes can also be played carter style with thumb melody, using a bum ditty thumb[ty] movement being replaced with a quick pick up on the 1 st string instead of the 5 string, or Pete Seeger banjo bum ditty up picking, the dgdgbd and dadf#ad are great for this.particularly[imo] dadf#ad |
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16 Oct 10 - 12:59 PM (#3008502) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: kendall You learn something everyday if you are paying attention. I always thought frailing and claw hammer were the same method. |
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16 Oct 10 - 01:06 PM (#3008507) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: The Sandman Kendall, there is some dispute about it, Isuppose we have to have some labelling to differentiate strumless down picking from frailing, anyroad there are some good tuition videos there,although they could do it a little slower |
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16 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM (#3008511) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: The Sandman thread drift but this is great, does he flat pick or is he using thumb index on the solos.big bill broonzyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7wluszxDrY&feature=fvw |
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16 Oct 10 - 01:54 PM (#3008531) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: Nick I'm not sure I'm talking to your good or bad self DM/GSS. Does it matter much if it works. If, as you do very successfully, you play in one or a number of styles, does it really matter what they are called. I have no idea what styles I play in as most of the times in my little way I play in hybrid styles. Would it help if someone put labels on them. I ask as someone who would like to be a much better player. |
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16 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM (#3008542) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: The Sandman no,I suppose not but since I dont like the royal family vey much and prince charles only very sightly more,Ifeel like puking when someone decribes Missippi john hurt[piedmont] guitar picking as in the style of prince charles , in fact it gets right up my nostril |
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16 Oct 10 - 03:10 PM (#3008585) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: Nick I think I'll just keep away in future as I don't understand whether your posts are serious or laughing at your alter ego. Most of your posts are about other people doing stuff wrong; only you always post as your alter ego so it's quite weird as to whether you mean it or it is somehow a subtle.....something which I have obviously missed. Look on the bright side you've never been banned from here so Mudcat must be a broader church. It may be why Mudcat may stand for... Musicians Usually Don't Cause Any Trouble |
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16 Oct 10 - 03:34 PM (#3008600) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: GUEST,Russ GSS, I am curious. Where did Steve Baughman get the term "Prince Charles Picking"? Is he serious? Is it some sort of inside joke? Russ (Permanent GUEST and old time banjo player) |
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16 Oct 10 - 04:09 PM (#3008614) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: GUEST,Tunesmith Indeed, this becomes more confusing because back in the 60s - in England, at least - what we now call "pattern playing" - was referred to as claw-hammer. I think UK guitar players picked up the style from Ramblin' Jack Elliott who visited the UK in the late 50s. By the early/mid-60s Joan Baez, Bob Dylan etc were using it lots! In the UK, even staunch traditionist Martin Carthy used it! I think Bert Jansch's take on it was beautiful ( Needle of Death, and Running from Home, for example). |
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16 Oct 10 - 04:38 PM (#3008627) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: olddude We called it Appalachian pickin ... same method different name. |
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16 Oct 10 - 06:02 PM (#3008664) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: GUEST,Hootenanny Tunesmith; It's true that Jack did play a similar style of picking to Libba Cotten but "right side up". However I think that most of us got it from Peggy Seeger who was here in the late 50's - as was Jack - when we attended her guitar and banjo classes. That is what most of us aspired to. Freight Train picking was referred to by us newcomers to the style as Clawhammer because that is the term Peggy used. If you refer to The Penguin Book of American Folksongs compiled by Alan Lomax Page 150, he describes Clawhammer style of guitar playing. I don't have the time or inclination to test it out right now but it ain't what we learnt under that description. I must admit That I have never heard anyone use the phrase clawhammer guitar for years and years. In my experience of hearing and visiting and watching various banjo pickers the terms clawhammer, frailing, framming, knockdown and probably more all seem to be interchangeable. Plus very few people play in exactly the same way. GSS. Don't get your bowels in an uproar over what people call the style. It seems quite common currently to mis-name various styles of music. Take for example The Blues, I see postings on here from time to time about great new blues on you tube. I take a look and find something entirely different or just a humble attempt to copy. Inexcusable really now that virtually everything ia available on re-issue CD's. Sorry if I rambled on a bit Hoot |
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16 Oct 10 - 07:02 PM (#3008694) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar From: Joe Offer I've seen and heard Steve Baughman sing, but didn't know anything about his guitar playing until just recently. I haven't heard him play, but I understand that he uses tunings and methods that nobody else understands - but somehow, he makes wonderful music. He seems to be a very nice guy, perhaps a bit eccentric (but aren't we all?). I'll be hearing him in concert next weekend, so maybe I'll have something to report to this thread. Steve Baughman posts here as a guest every great once in a while - the last time was three days ago. -Joe in Northern California- |
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16 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM (#3008729) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: olddude Kendall, I still think it is the same thing ... nobody every explained to me why it is different cause I heard old time banjo players call it the same thing |
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16 Oct 10 - 08:22 PM (#3008745) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Rob Naylor Russ: Where did Steve Baughman get the term "Prince Charles Picking"? Is he serious? Is it some sort of inside joke? Well, I'm not particularly bright, but I picked up from the context of what he'd said immediately beforehand that this was a gentle dig at the fact that people in the UK had inaccurately referred to Travis Picking as Clawhammer style...so he kept calling it, ironically "Prince Charles" style. Not rocket science. |
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17 Oct 10 - 05:03 AM (#3008897) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Will Fly However I think that most of us got it [clawhammer] from Peggy Seeger who was here in the late 50's I didn't really know about Peggy Seeger in the late '50s, but I certainly did know about Merle Travis. I was lent an album of his around that time, put it on and couldn't believe my ears when I heard "Walking The Strings" and "Blue Smoke". When I first saw him, many years later, I saw him play with just a thumb and forefinger - and couldn't believe my eyes! The first person in this country I ever saw play with what we then called a "clawhammer" technique was a young chap called Stefan at Leeds University Folk Club - around 1964. I discovered, many years later, he was Stefan Sobell. |
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17 Oct 10 - 06:38 AM (#3008975) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Tunesmith I remember seeing Pete Seeger on UK tv in 1964( I think). The chap announcing him was in front of the huge curtain introducing Pete when Pete, behind the curtain, starts playing Freight Train. I was hooked immediately on that "clawhammer" style. |
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17 Oct 10 - 06:53 AM (#3008983) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Hootenanny Will, It sounds as if you are comparing Merle Travis' style with Libba Cottens' style (via Peggy Seeger). I bow to your superior abilities on the guitar and technical knowledge but the way we were taught used more than just the forefinger of the right hand. I find myself using three. Whilst on the subject. Does nobody else but me ever play Cotten's "Wilson Rag"? I remember Malcolm Price and Lisa Turner used to play it in the sixties but I haven't heard it played by anyone else except in the privacy of my own home, for years. Hoot |
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17 Oct 10 - 08:42 AM (#3009053) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Will Fly Hi Hoot - no attempting at making comparisons, I can assure you - merely saying that the first time I ever heard the alternating thumb style was from a Merle Travis record. I never realised, until I actually saw him, that he only used thumb and forefinger! I certainly use three fingers myself when I'm playing that style. I also use three fingers when playing Gary Davis stuff - and he only used a thumb and forefinger as well. |
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17 Oct 10 - 11:42 AM (#3009153) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Russ Rob, I finally did what I should have done in the first place. I watched the video. I found two musical references to Prince Charles. The first comes at about 2:20 when he says, "Your fingers are so stiff you can't go back and sort of play prince Charles kind of guitar" I'll give you irony on that one. Apparently GSS didn't get it. The second reference comes at about 2:46 when he says, "...unlike the Prince Charles Pick the Travis pick I'm sorry..." That I will call a slip of the tongue. IMHO, the first reference is based upon a romantic myth. The style of banjo playing Steve is talking about became associated with rural Americans (including but not limited to farmers) in the 20th century, but they didn't invent it. It's roots can be traced to a technique called "stroke style" from the American minstrel tradition of the 19th century. The minstrels were professional touring musicians, some of whom were prolific producers of instruction manuals. The target market for such "tutorials" was the urban gentry, not the rural poor. If an Appalachian farmer played the stroke style or one of its descendents, it would not have been because his hands were stiff at the end of a long day, but because he learned that technique from his or her banjo mentor. For what it is worth.... My American banjo-playing friends and I tend to use the terms "clawhammer" and "frailing" interchangeably. If I were to be over-precise, I would call my style "thumping" like the Pocahontas County WV banjo players I emulate. Russ (Permanent GUEST and banjo player) |
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17 Oct 10 - 11:48 AM (#3009159) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman yes i used to have the tab for wilson rag ,it has areaaly nice d7plus9 in it,it was in abook by oak publications finger picking guitar style , the book weas by happy traum, wilson rag was played by libba cotten. the four four bass melody picking style is Piedmont guitar style, SOME PEOPLE USED ONE FINGER AND A THUMB SOME THREE AND A THUMB SOME TWO AND A THUMB.Ithought Baughmamns video was interesting, however i find it much easier on the guitar to use an up picking banjo bum ditty, than frailing, but its athought provoking video |
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17 Oct 10 - 12:21 PM (#3009186) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman three mentions of prince charles, its stupid,and inaccurate it has nothing to do with prince charles, its travis , piedmont, or melody picking, it is not english in origin , the fact that sime english people mistakenly call it claw hammer, is no reason why it should be connected to an upper class member of the royal family who as far as I know does not play the guitar, and who seem at his happiest talking to plants |
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17 Oct 10 - 12:24 PM (#3009189) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman furthermore some of us english do not have crumpets for tea, or crumpet crumpets any other time. typical racist stereo typing of the english. the english just go around playing prince charles picking and having crumpets for tea, what a load of squit |
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17 Oct 10 - 01:35 PM (#3009238) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: olddude Our Jayto by the way is a former National thumb picking champion ... performs a lot at the Travis Center ... I never heard anyone do it better than JT |
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17 Oct 10 - 02:22 PM (#3009279) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman anyway i would like to thank steve its a good video |
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17 Oct 10 - 03:06 PM (#3009308) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Dave Swan If you're confused about what Steve means, ask him. Steve is a good man and a good friend. Calm and honest. I've never heard him make a joke at anyone's expense. I think he would welcome the discussion. D |
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17 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM (#3009459) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman STEVE has contacted me., it has been discussed prior to your post Dave. |
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17 Oct 10 - 10:51 PM (#3009558) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Dave Swan What was the outcome of your discussion? |
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18 Oct 10 - 07:18 AM (#3009706) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST he gave me a tip on damping the bass string ,and he said sorry if he caused an offence. Dave, for people who are not fans of the royal family, [not all English people are[neither do they all speak with upper class accent and eat crumpets for tea]it is similar to addressing an american who plays bluegrass 5 string banjo and calling it redneck instead of Scruggs style banjo. travis, piedmont , up picking melody finger picking, are more accurate. does Prince Charles even play the guitar in Travis style?I doubt it. |
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18 Oct 10 - 07:19 AM (#3009707) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST sorry ,guest above was me didnt realise my cookie had gone, Dick Miles |
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18 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM (#3009758) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Will Fly does Prince Charles even play the guitar in Travis style?I doubt it. Sorry, Dick - here is in action: Prince Charles playing fingerstyle guitar :-) |
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18 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM (#3009759) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Will Fly Ain't Photoshop a wonderful thing...? |
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18 Oct 10 - 10:48 AM (#3009811) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Hootenanny Seems like an ideal opportunity to have a compettion and ask for suggestions on what song he is playing and singing. Using a bit of poetic licence could I suggest "Dinah"? Any chance you can add animation and soundtrack Will? Probably takes more than Photoshop though. Hoot |
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18 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM (#3009822) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Will Fly Any chance you can add animation and soundtrack Will? Probably takes more than Photoshop though. Very tempting - and also very time consuming... |
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18 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM (#3009825) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Tunesmith Well, we know the Prince is a fan of Leonard Cohen, but which one of Leonard's songs would be appropriate for a Prince to sing? |
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18 Oct 10 - 08:16 PM (#3010228) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Steve Baughman I am delighted that a discussion about clawhammer guitar is taking place on Mudcat. It's a great technique for guitarists to explore. I am sorry that the discussion has focused more that I would like on my referring to the Travis pick as 'the Prince Charles pick.' As for why I did that, Rob Naylor gets it right in his October 16 post. I'll direct the curious to that post (thanks Rob), though I think the matter is sooooooo trivial it does not warrant the effort. On the other hand, it is a serious matter when someone gets their feelings hurt and feels culturally sleighted. I regret that that happened here. I also don't want to divert people from the important stuff, which is that, as some posters have noted in this thread, frailing and clawhammer are interchangeable; they both refer to a DOWN picking 'bum ditty' pattern where the thumb (contra Travis picking) sounds on the PICKUP to the downbeat. This creates a unique groove that one rarely hears on the guitar. Sadly, in the guitar world use of the term 'frailing' has been rather free-wheeling and it now means whatever people want it to mean. I have been very guilty of loose use of that term also. I wish I hadn't. In any event, claw guitar is a unique way to create groove, bass and melody with one simple, ergonomically elegant, flowing right hand motion. The world needs more guitar players to give it a try. I hope it happens. Thanks for the thread. Steve Baughman |
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19 Oct 10 - 08:45 AM (#3010536) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Meso Man Yes, claw hammers and banjos go really well together. |
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19 Oct 10 - 09:20 AM (#3010565) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: olddude Steve I love your video, I can see the difference now in what we would call Appalachian Picking (more Travis style) ... I can see a world of possibilities, especially for my friends who say their fingers don't work like they use to because of the arthritis and stopped finger picking. In addition the sound produced is quite unique I think ... awesome video. I am going to give it a try Thanks Dan |
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19 Oct 10 - 10:15 AM (#3010630) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman STEVE Thanks for the post and the videos, other banjo styles such as thumb lead[noIdont mean scruggs]can also be adapted for guitar in dgdgbd |
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19 Oct 10 - 10:22 AM (#3010636) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman dadf#ad is even better because,the relationship of the strings gives the player your equivalent to the short 5 string as your first guitar string, this means you can flat pick a guitar or play carter scratch[picking melody with thumb or pick] and get a bum ditty, using your first string for the ty of the ditty |
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19 Oct 10 - 10:31 AM (#3010644) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: VirginiaTam I loved the video too... looks so easy and yet is diabolically not, especially when you've been picking (amateurishly) for 30 odd years. Saying that and now having rheumatoid arthritis and recently turned on to blues, I think I better get that claw down. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:02 AM (#3010679) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,ElwynMaxon Thanks Steve. I don't care what you call the technique it sounds great on the guitar. Is there any retuning go on in the lesson? EM |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM (#3010683) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,Cpt Colin Back in the 60s when we were all trying to learn to fingerpick here in the UK by using the thumb and first two fingers the style became known as clawhammer picking for a while- the term now seems to have fallen out of use for that kind of playing. This presumably arose because somebody had heard the term in relation to banjo playing and had not realised that clawhammer banjo is in a completely different right hand approach- a misunderstanding partly arising, I suspect,from the fact that the second first and second fingers are held somehat like the "claws" on an actual clawhammer to play the guitar in this style (By the my father used to call tailed coats "clawhammer coats"). Stefan Grossman (who'd been around guitars a bit) said he had never heard the term clawhammer applied to this style of playing before coming to the UK. It was indiscriminately applied to all kinds of finger picking, though of course Merle Travis and Doc Wason used only thumb and index (and Chet Atkins and Jerry Reid used pima) Steve Baughman, in his excellent and intelligent post above, points out that he is encouraging a guitar style based on actual clawhammer banjo technique- all downstrokes- and credit to him for espousing something new(ish). I'm not sure whether this clears up any confusion in anyones mind or adds to it. As for Mr. Baugham's gently teasing remarks about Prince Charles and crumpets, I think he is really mocking stereotyping, and anyone who finds anything offensive in what he said really needs to stay in more. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM (#3010695) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Rob Naylor Steve Baughman: I am sorry that the discussion has focused more that I would like on my referring to the Travis pick as 'the Prince Charles pick.' As for why I did that, Rob Naylor gets it right in his October 16 post. I'll direct the curious to that post (thanks Rob), though I think the matter is sooooooo trivial it does not warrant the effort. I'm glad that I understood your comment properly, Steve. As a Brit who's fairly ambivalent about the royal family it didn't worry me at all...it just came across as a gentle tease and I think some of those who are "huffing and puffing" above are not seeing the forest because the trees are in the way! For me, your vid was great. I've known for some time "intellectually" what was really meant by "Clawhammer style" but to see it demonstrated so clearly was great. I'll sit down and really focus on it one day...but first I need to work on my orthodox fingerpicking. Thanks again for the very useful video. |
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19 Oct 10 - 11:22 AM (#3010699) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Mavis Enderby Agree, great video. I'm a left handed clawhammer banjo player who plays right handed. The left hand (steering wheel!) works great but the right hand is a bit limited so clawhammer appeals. I've never really been happy with my guitar playing for the same reason so I'll give it a go. PS - I'm English and I like crumpets for tea... |
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19 Oct 10 - 05:10 PM (#3010985) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,steve baughman Exactly! INJURED HANDS? Try clawhammer. If you're getting arthritis or hand issues, the claw position requires almost no finger movement. If you can hold a hoe you can play clawhammer. Thanks for mentioning this. Tell your injured friends about it. No need to stop playing just because of a hand issues sb |
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29 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM (#3018916) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman thanks for your videos Steve |
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29 Oct 10 - 08:57 PM (#3019017) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Art Thieme After Utah Phillips hands pretty much quit working he couldn't pick any more. So he adapted by frailing his guitar. I thought about doing that too, but my malady progressed to the point where, by about 1997, I couldn't feel the strings any mmore to make chords. Art |
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30 Oct 10 - 06:22 AM (#3019178) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman how about replacing the 5low guitar string with a high twelve string, it would sound more like a banjo then would it not?as regards the short high g string. is this a feasible idea? |
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02 Nov 10 - 08:13 PM (#3022127) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,steve baughman Yes, I call it "High Five Tuning" and I have a guitar designated for it. I take the FIFTH string off (the low A) and replace it with a high E string, which I tune to D or G. It makes some really nice sounds and is fun to experiment with. You get banjo flavor with the richness of the guitar chords and bass. Great fun. sb |
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03 Nov 10 - 11:25 AM (#3022539) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,bankley Throw a stone in Western Kentucky and chances are you'll hit a picker. They call it thumbpicking down there. Eddie Pennington is more purist in the Travis style than a lot of them. His son Alonzo is real good as well.. as is JT Oglesby who can talk for days about this. Arnold Shultz, a black man from Alabama who never recorded but drifted through the area with his delta thing caused a shift in the approach to the instrument.. ...Kennedy Jones, Mose Rager and Ike Everly heard the call and developed the style to a high level of dexterity, which later influenced Merle to take it further and gave him a great career.. |
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03 Nov 10 - 02:14 PM (#3022681) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman steve baughman, will the E string go up to high g, SAME AS HIGH G ON A BANJO, what NUMBER gauge do you recommend, I dont want to snap strings. |
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03 Nov 10 - 06:00 PM (#3022904) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman of course the high g string can enable the player to use the high g string as a melody note in the style of clawhammer banjo,clever stuff |
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05 Nov 10 - 11:11 AM (#3024294) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman ok so i tried a e string gauge 07 works perfectly and sounds good. |
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05 Nov 10 - 12:07 PM (#3024332) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: Bobert Nice youtube... I never really knew what style I pick but it's definitely more on the claw hammer side than the Piedmont but, heck, I never am quite sure what the right hand has in it's mind... lol... Back when I was a regular at Archie Edwards Barber Shop in Washington, D.C. the folks mainly played Piedmont style and, yeah, I could play it but then they'd want to hear what they called "Delta" and had me do two or three "Delta" songs and that's the kinda pickin' I'd use, along with a bottleneck... The main difference is in the thumb... You notice that with the claw hammer the thumb goes down somet5imes catchin' two or more strings on the way down... That is a no-no with most Piedmont pickers who tend to be a lot cleaner... Thanks fir the video... B~ |
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09 Nov 10 - 05:23 PM (#3027912) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: GUEST,steve baughman Hi Good Soldier. I actually had a RAILROAD SPIKE in my guitar at the 5th fret of the 5th string so I can just tune the High Five strung to a D, "capo" it at the 5th fret and get a high G that way. Make sense? That's what banjo players do, but it's great to know that a .07 E string goes up to a G. You can also tune it to F# and play in Open D. Loads of things to experiment with clawhammer guitar. Thanks for the info, sb |
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09 Nov 10 - 06:28 PM (#3027961) Subject: RE: claw hammer guitar - Steve Baughman From: The Sandman last night it[o7string] broke so i put a[E] gauge 10 on.......and tuned it to f.......then i tuned 12345 cafcf and tuned the low6 e string up to f, i figured tuning a string up a semitone would not cause too much stress, SOUNDS GREAT. |
