BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts

20 Jan 11 - 04:43 PM (#3078874)
Subject: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: akenaton

The latest piece of human rights nonesense being debated by the UK govt, is "votes for convicted criminals"

Apparently the latest thinking is that if they have done something bad.....they can vote in elections.
If they've done something very bad.....they cannot!

I despair at the extent of our gullibility.

These divisive "issues" are simply a smokescreen, there is now only one "issue"......"How are we to survive"

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20 Jan 11 - 05:31 PM (#3078909)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

Why should a prisoner be disenfranchised as a punishment, in addition to having his/her liberty taken away? Even a criminal should have a say in an election. After all, when his/her release is due, the elected Government will be in power and will affect his/her life. What other 'rights' should they be barred from? Library books? Access to the Internet? Visits from family? Fresh air and exercise? It is the lack of liberty alone which constitutes the punishment. There is a tendency to want to inflict vengeance on lawbreakers, and a conflict between punishment and reform. I have visited at eight prisons in the UK, and these issues are always to the fore.

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20 Jan 11 - 05:38 PM (#3078918)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Wesley S

I have no idea what goes on in England. But in America I'd be suprised if many convicted felons have a long track record of voting. Why not expend energy on an issue of real importance?

In America - no. I DON'T think a criminal should have a say in an election. But that's just my two cents worth.

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20 Jan 11 - 05:39 PM (#3078920)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

I should have clarified that I was NOT an inmate but a Prison Visitor!

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20 Jan 11 - 05:48 PM (#3078929)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: BTNG

A question. Are there those in England who would, like some U.S states,who deny the right to vote to those convicted of a serious crime after the said person or persons have been released from prison after serving their sentence? Canada allowed only prisoners serving a term of less than 2 years the right to vote, but this was found unconstitutional in 2002 by the Supreme Court of Canada and all prisoners were allowed to vote as of the 2004 Canadian federal election.

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20 Jan 11 - 05:53 PM (#3078935)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dorothy Parshall

Considering how many people are being found innocent of the crimes for which they have served lengthy prison terms... They are not only wrongfully incarcerated, they are disenfranchised. And most of them Blacks who fought years to get the right to vote.

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20 Jan 11 - 05:58 PM (#3078940)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu

"Even a criminal should have a say in an election."

Does that include the politicians?

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20 Jan 11 - 06:06 PM (#3078949)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert

Heck, here in the US I've seen people wheel granny in to the voting precinct in a wheelchair and looking' at granny and seein' in her eyes that, ahhhh, no one is home and then these people get to "assist" granny (wink, wink) in the voting booth... Ah huh???

Hey, if people who don't know their own names are allowed to vote for people then, geeze, seems that folks who do shopuld be able to vote, too...

B~

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20 Jan 11 - 06:37 PM (#3078975)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Richard Bridge

Of course in the UK we no longer have the distinction between a misdemeanour and a felony, not do we have the status of outlawry.

Nonetheless I see the intrusion of the ECHR on our society's voting rules as intrusive, and it seems to me that there is considerable force in arguing that a society is entitled to add disenfranchisement to the penalties of conviction - or imprisonment, since the two are different.

The concept seems to me to be that those imprisoned are found to have decided seriously to flout the rules of the society in which they are present, and may be held to have disentitled themselves to its benefits.

The formality of the situation could be decided by an amendment to the Human Rights Act. Some time ago the UK did not accept direct application to the ECHR, and that, with a qualification, could be restored.

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20 Jan 11 - 07:55 PM (#3079038)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu

Charles Manson should be allowed to vote? Why not? After all, Garge was elected twice. The American CITIZENS who elected (HAH!) that nutbar unqualified twit are just about as crazy as Chuck so why not?

Sorry to my Yankee brothers for uttering that disparaging diatribe but allowing criminals to vote is is just odd to me.

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20 Jan 11 - 08:09 PM (#3079049)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Sandy Mc Lean

In Canada the hot issue is the government paying old age pensions to serial killers like Clifford Olson. He is nearly old enough to qualify but the government is trying to change the law to prevent it happening.
Members of Parliament themselves have the fattest pensions in the land and if they ever throw that bunch in jail I expect that they would draw theirs.

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20 Jan 11 - 08:27 PM (#3079059)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: gnu

6 years in office and they calve out to get their fat pensions with no waiting period. We had two in a row resign after the 6 six years. One of them was a "saint" in sheep's clothing. Unreal.

Olson... now, there's a candidate for a shive in the yard. Piece of garbage.

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20 Jan 11 - 08:35 PM (#3079063)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: SINSULL

With my son's first conviction came the understanding that he had lost his right to vote. I was devastated. He didn't have a clus. Says it all, I guess.
SINS

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20 Jan 11 - 08:45 PM (#3079074)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: EBarnacle

Here in the US, the rules vary. Some felons are allowed to vote only after rehabilitation and release. Some while they are in jail; some not at all after conviction; some while in office.

In some jurisdictions, they are allowed only to vote for state or local positions.

In some they are counted among the strongest supporters of local politicians.

I believe this is one of the issues the Constitution is mute over and, as such, there are as many answers as there are authorities.

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20 Jan 11 - 08:59 PM (#3079085)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert

So, gn-ze... How do you think Charles Manson would vote???

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20 Jan 11 - 09:03 PM (#3079087)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: SINSULL

For Palin, for sure, Bobert. That moose dressing would clinch it.

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20 Jan 11 - 09:33 PM (#3079098)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Rapparee

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

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20 Jan 11 - 09:35 PM (#3079100)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert

Yeah, Sins.... Ol' Charlie would be a Palin-ite thru and thru...

Might of fact, I think Charlie and Ms. Sarah would make a good team... Of course, she'd have to listen to "Helter Skelter" a couple hundred times to get it... That, of course, would be the just the beginning and then it would be Todd rather than the moose and then next thing ya' know it's the "Palin/Manson" ticket form 2012...

Maybe she could get a little swastika tattooed on her foerhead like Charlies... Maybe some matching camos??? I donno???

B~

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21 Jan 11 - 12:02 AM (#3079153)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Ebbie

In Alaska, felons can be 'reconstituted' in regards to their voiting rights unless they were convicted of 'moral turpitude'.

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21 Jan 11 - 12:34 AM (#3079162)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Rapparee

Seems to me that robbery, burglary, murder, rape, arson, embezzlement, blackmail, extortion, manslaughter, a history of alcohol/drug abuse, making meth, selling illegal drugs, pimping and similar peccadilloes would indicate "moral turpitude."

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21 Jan 11 - 02:06 AM (#3079179)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: JohnInKansas

As has been said above, the rules vary from one state to the next in the US.

In a recent Congressional election there was some investigative activity regarding the suspicion that inmates at at least two prisons, in two different states, quite likely had each voted several times.

It's amazing what can be accomplished when one has nothing but "time" on one's hands - (and even limited internet access and mail privileges).

John

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21 Jan 11 - 04:21 AM (#3079199)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

Eliza, why do you think people who totally disregard the rights of their fellow citizens and feel free to ignore the laws of the land should have the right to vote ?

They chose to put themselves outside the law and consequently should not be afforded it's priveliges.

Dave H

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21 Jan 11 - 04:27 AM (#3079204)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

And talking of what other ' rights ' should be denied them, what other rights would you bestow on them ? the right to go about their dishonest, illegal murderous buisness without let or hinderance from decent honest society.

Methinks you have never been the victim of a crime.

Dave H

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21 Jan 11 - 04:51 AM (#3079210)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Gervase

Methinks you have had little involvement with the criminal justice system.
One of the reasons so many young people "go about their dishonest, illegal murderous buisness" is because they feel no connection with the society on which they prey. Prison is not just about punishment - if it is to work it must also be about rehabilitation, and giving people a sense that they have a stake in society is part of that process.
I can see practical difficulties in enfranchising prisoners (particularly in terms of the constituency in which their vote would count), but I support the principle.

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21 Jan 11 - 05:00 AM (#3079216)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: theleveller

I'm a bit ambivalent on this. I don't think that criminals who are serving a term longer than the term of a parliament should be allowed to vote but those with sentences of less than, say, 4 years should be.

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21 Jan 11 - 06:16 AM (#3079251)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: akenaton

If prison rehabilitates, why does such a large percentage of prisoners re-offend within months of release?

Are you aware of the costs involved in rehabilitating those who for the most part have no interest in the service?

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21 Jan 11 - 06:49 AM (#3079266)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Stu

"Why should a prisoner be disenfranchised as a punishment, in addition to having his/her liberty taken away?"

Well, mainly because we vote for our representatives who draw up and create laws. To allow someone who has made a conscious decision to ignore those laws, always at the cost of a victim, to have a say in the creation of those laws is, frankly, absurd. In criminal cases the vote should be denied prisoners - they have made the decision themselves to opt out of the system of public influence on the creation of the law, and the vote is the main way we are involved.

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21 Jan 11 - 07:15 AM (#3079280)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

Un-beknown to the populace the "European Convention on Human Rights" is tabling the following proposals.
"All prisoners sentenced to prison terms exceeding six months shall be entitled to:-
a) Conjugal visits, bygamists being allowed three in a bed.
b) Annual attendance at one of these. A football Cup Final, one Test
   Match or the Ideal Homes Exhibition.
C) To sit on a jury.
d) Select a venue for an appeal hearing from one of the following:-
   Queen Mary, Las Palmas or Val d`Isere.
e) Select the location of re-habilitation courses from one of the
   following:- The Queen Mary, Las Palmas or Val d`Isere.

   Her Majesty`s Government is struggling with what approach to adopt.

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21 Jan 11 - 08:27 AM (#3079320)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

From my long experience with offenders in prison, I came to realise that the problem of criminality is far more complex than the general public perceive. I am not condoning crime, naturally, but I feel IF we are to address the detachment of these people (proportionally men under thirty) from society, which caused their criminal actions, we need to be clear about what we're doing in response to their offending. Are we merely punishing, exacting vengeance, deliberately causing suffering, counselling, rehabilitating, denying liberty, etc etc. I'm not opting personally for any one of these suggestions, but we do need to be clear about our objectives. If ALL privileges are to be removed for the duration of the custodial sentence, then franchise should be denied, as should presumably television, exercise, sport, publications, human contact and so on. Who is to select what a prisoner should undergo as part of the sentence? And what are the reasons for these deprivations? What in short is the AIM of prison and the penal system? Believe me, people offend for a great many reasons, some of which are pitiable and unavoidable, given their circumstances. Also, a large percentage of inmates have mental health issues. I have seen prisoners in Parkhurst, for example, in a dire state of mental illness. I'd be just as furious as anyone else to find my house had been burgled, or terrified to be mugged in the street. But the whole issue is not simple or easily addressed. I actually think that voting is quite low down on the list of what is needed to be considered!

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21 Jan 11 - 08:46 AM (#3079331)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

If prisoners have the right to vote ... than they should be allowed to have a elected representative in Congress / Parliament ... ones to represent them in the democratic government ... there is food for thought ... especially with the growing prisoner populations.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 08:50 AM (#3079332)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

by "elected representatives" I mean individuals from the prison population should be allowed to run for government ... as crazy as it sounds I feel if they have the right to vote, they should have their own voice in government.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 09:09 AM (#3079342)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Bobert

Yo, Gervase Webb,

Go back and read the Mudbox rules... Rule #1... Do not attempt to make sense....

But you are entirely correct.... Actually, we have become such a fragmented society that unless you are part of the monied class then you are most likely disenfranchised one one or more levels...

BTW, I used be the jail house teacher in the Richmond City jail...

B~

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21 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM (#3079346)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Dixon

In the US, all voting laws and procedures are determined by the various states, so there could be 50 different standards, but I think the usual rule is that convicted felons permanently lose the right to vote.

It doesn't matter to me very much whether felons vote or not. I doubt that it will make any difference in the outcome of any election.

The problem is, if you forbid felons to vote, how do you enforce that rule? Do you require every law-abiding voter to prove that he is NOT a felon before you allow him to vote? In other words, do you require him to show a state-issued picture ID card with a magnetic stripe on the back, so you can check his identity against a database of all non-felonious citizens?

If you require the card, you would be disenfranchising everyone who fails or refuses to obtain and carry the card. This would disproportionately affect the young, the poor, and the less educated. Would this not be a greater evil than allowing the occasional felon to vote?

That's the debate we've been having in the US lately. Felons are not supposed to vote, but the Republicans are claiming that too many of them vote anyway; and therefore we need tougher enforcement, which means ID cards. It's a favorite Tea-Party issue.

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21 Jan 11 - 09:20 AM (#3079348)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Keith A of Hertford

Another issue is that this right will be given to some prisoners even though there is little support among the population or in parliament.
It is being foisted on an unwilling population by unelected European judges.
It seems undemocratic.

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21 Jan 11 - 09:29 AM (#3079350)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

exactly Keith

prisoners are segregated from society in a world of their own. How can they elect someone from the outside and expect to have fair representation ... in other words their vote is basically a sham vote in a democratic process. If allowed the vote they must have fair democratic representation, and that would mean having an elected representative from their own population.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 11:21 AM (#3079408)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Ebbie

I have never heard of jprisoners being able to vote. In Alaska, some people - after being freed - are able to get their voting rights restored.

In what states are people, currently imprisoned, able to vote? And how is that accomplished? Do elections officials set up voting stations in prisons?

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21 Jan 11 - 11:29 AM (#3079413)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

Keith A,
       I understand from a radio programme on this subject the other day it was accepted that the European Court of Human Rights (whatever they are) can huff and puff till they are blue in the face but there is no obligation for Her Majesty`s Government to implement their dictats. Also, regarding claims for compensation of disenfranchisement, Westminster can justly say "No, now any other business?"
It would all blow over in weeks leaving the country to get on with then real problems of today.

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21 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM (#3079417)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Brian May

Personally I feel that withholding voting rights should be PART of the punishment.

If a criminal makes a choice to disregard the laws of society, then that society should make a choice to disregard the rights of said individual. God almighty, they are getting three meals a day, are warm, clothed and get medical attention when they need it. Not many pensioners can say that - especially this winter.

Inordinate amounts of resource are ploughed into rehabilitation of offenders, recidivism is still very high and precious little regard is paid to the victims and with the latest cuts, that's going to get worse.

Once more we have 'do-gooders' to thank for giving the dysfunctional elements more rights than we common-or-garden taxpayers.

Thanks . . .

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21 Jan 11 - 11:46 AM (#3079419)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: olddude

The theory is one convicted of a felony would be willing to "sell" their vote. Well they better include most corporate fat cats in that line. Hey if someone made a mistake, paid their due, is out and in good standing ... why not .. everyone deserves a chance to join in the "fun" of US elections. There is never a harsh word issued ever in our elections and the good guy always wins ...

I have this great bridge for sale .. any takers?

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21 Jan 11 - 12:03 PM (#3079430)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

Personally I feel prisoners do not have the right to vote ... it's all in part of paying your debt to society.

but in saying this I feel if you do have the right to vote, then you also have the right to run for government seat, and partake in all processes of government representation ... all part and parcel of a true democracy.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM (#3079433)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Wesley S

Is there some sort of grass roots movement by the prisioners themselves asking for the right to vote? Or is this just a case of some people deciding what other people should be doing?

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21 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM (#3079443)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: MGM·Lion

Eliza appears above to argue that prisoners should be permitted to vote because so many can't help being prisoners as they have mental problems.

LEST SHE SHOULD CONTRADICT MY GLOSS ON HER ARGUMENT, HERE IS A QUOTATION FROM HER LAST POST~~~

"Who is to select what a prisoner should undergo as part of the sentence? And what are the reasons for these deprivations? What in short is the AIM of prison and the penal system? Believe me, people offend for a great many reasons, some of which are pitiable and unavoidable, given their circumstances. Also, a large percentage of inmates have mental health issues. I have seen prisoners in Parkhurst, for example, in a dire state of mental illness."

I fear the logic of this position escapes me.

~Michael~

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21 Jan 11 - 12:45 PM (#3079458)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

I don't know where Eliza or Michael are from ... but I do know that in Canada prisoners are very well screened in regards to mental problems and those that do have mental issues are incarcerated in hospitals for the criminally insane and are released when and if they are deemed mentally fit to integrate back into society.

What are the reasons we have prisons ... to segregate individuals who have broken the laws of our country into a controlled environment for a period of time dependant on the severity of the crime they did and try to rehabilitate them so they can integrate back into our society.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 02:02 PM (#3079507)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999

One aspect of the vote--no vote--issue with prisoners that seems not to have been addressed is guys and gals in remand. They have been accused but they are not necessarily guilty of the alleged crime(s). I taught in both a remand centre and a maximum security institution. I also recall people like Donald Marshall and Willie Nepoose. They served heavy time for crimes which they didn`t do. (Fuck ups by the RCMP.) The fact that a person is doing time is a statement by the state that they have broken a or some laws. I fail to see that removing the right to vote is or ever has been a part of the punishment. At least I don`t know of a judge anywhere having said the prisoner has NOT retained the right to vote. Citizens--even citizens in jail--are still citizens. IMO

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21 Jan 11 - 02:20 PM (#3079524)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Dixon

I'm confused.

Is the controversy in the UK about whether prisoners should be allowed to vote while they are in prison?

Or is it about whether they should be allowed to vote after they are released from prison?

What's the law now, and what are they proposing to change it to?

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21 Jan 11 - 02:27 PM (#3079531)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

MtheGM, What you seem to be saying is that allowing severely mentally ill people (whether inmates of prisons or not) to vote is absurd. I quite agree. But I still maintain that those who are have the mental capability should not be disenfranchised as an additional punishment to their loss of liberty. Especially as the Government is so unclear about the aims of the Penal System. I can assure Guest no.6 that in the eight British prisons I visited, there was a very large number of mentally ill men. On Visits in Parkhurst, several prisoners were attended by a uniformed nurse carrying a medical bag in which was always kept injections to quickly calm them down if they became violent. Suicides in eg Norwich Prison when I visited there were so common that an Inquiry was set up. Self-harm is an everyday occurrence. In general, these people are not transferred to a prison for the mentally ill. Brian May, are you proposing that inmates should NOT be warm, fed, clothed etc? If so, I imagine that you would prefer their punishment to be more severe and rigorous than it is at present. What would be the advantages of this? (I ask this in all sincerity, as I have never fully decided what we should do with offenders, I find the whole problem too complex to solve.)

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21 Jan 11 - 02:43 PM (#3079542)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,number 6

999 .... in Canada our legal system states you are innocent until proven guilty ... so I guess the answer IMHO would be you lose the right to vote when you have been declared guilty in a court of law and off you go to serve your designated time and lose your right to vote until you have been released. If you are found certifiably insane well ... what the hell in Canada you can vote if you are mentally insane or are in prison (if the time of incarceration is over 2 years), so I arrest my case let them all vote ... I guess it doesn't make any difference since there are politicans, and judges who are both crooks and mentally unstable.

and yes Eliza ... I agree the whole problem is too complex to solve.

biLL

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21 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM (#3079548)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999

Well said, biLL.

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21 Jan 11 - 03:45 PM (#3079595)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

Gervase Webb, you too seem to have the wrong idea about prison too, while a burglar is in prison he can't be going about his chosen profession of burglary, or do you think this is interfering with his human rights too much ?

Dave H

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21 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM (#3079686)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Gervase

Dave, when a burglar is released from prison, would you want him;
a) to go back to burgling, the only trade he knows, because it pays for the drugs habit, or
b) to do something else because he's off the drugs, doesn't need to raise £200 a day to feed his habit and is capable of holding down a job, can now read and write and feels for the first time in his life that he can contribute to society rather than simply take from it?

Or should I put a (c) option for the Daily Mail readers - no-one should ever be released from prison?

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21 Jan 11 - 06:11 PM (#3079693)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999

Just saw this:

`Prisoners exercise their right to vote
Updated Wed. Jan. 11 2006 10:13 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Friday was voting day for prisoners across Canada. About 35,000 were eligible to vote, and many seemed to be voting Liberal in order to protect privileges that Conservatives threaten to take away.`


Huh.

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21 Jan 11 - 07:39 PM (#3079729)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

Gervase, did someone force him to take drugs ? I think not, it's a lifestyle choice, if someone deliberately puts themselves outside the rule of law, they must live with the consequences of their illegal actions, having been a victim of crime, I have no sympathy.

Dave H

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21 Jan 11 - 09:23 PM (#3079762)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Sandy Mc Lean

Bruce, as much as the RCMP have fucked up of late they can't carry the blame for Donald Marshall. That fuck up started with the Sydney City Police Department and continued through a court system loaded with crown attorneys and judges who fucked up as well. There has been some effort since to remove racism from Nova Scotia's legal system but some things are still badly lacking. For instance an RCMP officer entered an Indian's home against orders and shot him dead. The reason for the Mountie to be there was a fear that the Indian would commit suicide. Well he sure as Hell prevented that! The band chief and the family continue to be stonewalled by the RCMP,legal system and government for full disclosure.

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22 Jan 11 - 12:55 AM (#3079831)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: MGM·Lion

Eliza: You are obviously a good and well-meaning person, and, despite the somewhat sour tone of my last response to you, I have much respect for you and sympathy with your views. And I agree that the extent to which punishments should be enforced is an intransigent problem.

The trouble is, indeed, the whole concept of "punishment" itself. The idea that, because someone has departed from Society's norms and expectations, they should be forced in return to undergo an experience they would rather not have undergone (whatever form it might take, from loss of money to loss of liberty to the pain of a birch across the bottom or a hot iron on the hand), is clearly illogical, irrational, and altogether absurd, even though it might give some satisfaction to their victims to contemplate their having suffered in their turn.

Unfortunately, no society seems ever to have come up with a better idea...

This might be worth a thread of its own. Think I will start one and see if anyone responds.

~Michael~

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22 Jan 11 - 05:57 AM (#3079881)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

The burglars in prison carry on 'burgling'. One young chap I was visiting at The Mount Prison in Hertfordshire emerged from the prisoners' door in tears, because 'someone had stolen his bag of sugar'. I'm afraid I flippantly replied that amazingly there was obviously a thief in the building! The man was serving a four year sentence for... burglary, but he couldn't see things from a victim's point of view. After the visit I told one of the officers, and we had a good laugh. Apparently, everything in there goes missing, they're at it all the time.

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22 Jan 11 - 06:25 AM (#3079893)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Backwoodsman

Best to keep the buggers there for a long time then, than let them out to steal from decent, honest, hard-working people.

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22 Jan 11 - 06:38 AM (#3079904)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

Dave Hanson, this raises the interesting question of free will doesn't it? I (and presumably you) have not got drug habits and don't burgle, steal or commit crime. I expect you would say we have chosen to be law abiding, and the criminals have decided to go wrong. But WHY have they decided that? In many cases, they have been dragged up on sink estates, with no parental role-models of any worth, surrounded by villainy from day one. Drugs are a part of life there, and of course necessitate theft to fund them. These are not excuses, but REASONS. I don't condone their evil acts, I'm merely academically interested in whether they truly have exercised free will, or are reacting to unavoidable circumstances in their genetics and early lives. I remember discussing free will in Moral Philosophy at Uni (a long long time ago), and it's a tricky thing to nail down.

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22 Jan 11 - 06:52 AM (#3079912)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Carroll

"It is being foisted on an unwilling population by unelected European judges."
As distinct from British judges who are, of course, elected and have to put up for re-election on a regular basis!!!
All the usual 'hang 'em and flog em' suspects in full attendance, I see.
Jim Carroll

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22 Jan 11 - 09:53 AM (#3079998)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: MGM·Lion

... who would presumably, Jim, reply "and all the do·gooding bleeding·❤❤s likewise"! I honestly can't see what you think will be gained by namecalling of those whose opinions are different from yours. As you once said to me in a similar sort of argument, you are better than that.

Best

~M~

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22 Jan 11 - 09:56 AM (#3080000)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

Just for the record Eliza, my mother raised four children to adulthood on her own, my father having died when I was six, [ I'm 64 now ] most of the time in poverty, none of us ever became criminals or committed criminal acts, certainly none of us was ever violent, I was the only one ever to appear in court, I was charged with fishing without a licence and found not guilty. It's a choice, my two brothers, my sister and I made the right one.

Dave H

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22 Jan 11 - 10:07 AM (#3080007)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Carroll

Mike - society has progressed, or should have done, beyond 'taking revenge' on those who commit crimes - the punative approach has never worked and is now recognised as not having worked.
I have no problem with the 'do-gooder' description as the opposite is 'do-badder', which would you opt for?
Hang 'em and flog 'em is not an invention of mine
Jim Carroll.

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22 Jan 11 - 10:47 AM (#3080034)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,999

Thanks for that info, Sandy.

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22 Jan 11 - 10:57 AM (#3080039)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Keith A of Hertford

We have unelected British judges Jim, but they do not have the power to demand voting rights for any particular group.
Cameron has conceded that there is no call for this from parliament or the people, but we must accept it anyway because unelected European judges have decreed it.
I have not expressed an opinion either way on the issue, just the undemocratic nature of the process.
There is nothing to justify labelling me as a member of any "hang 'em' and flog 'em" group.
Once again you resort to personal attack instead of replying to what is actually posted.

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22 Jan 11 - 11:06 AM (#3080042)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Carroll

Sorry, called away before I could finish
Hang 'em and flog 'em is not an invention of mine - I have spent a lifetime listening to those who would return us to the barbaric days of hanging and flogging - enough examples on this forum for us to be going on with.
Don't know about you, but, given the present economic climate, arrived at by greed, corruption, outright dishonesty and incompetence on the part of our 'betters' I am expecting a sharp rise in crime - hands up all those who expect the people who got us into the present situation to receive the punishment they undoubtedly deserve for their activities!
Jim Carroll

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22 Jan 11 - 12:34 PM (#3080090)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: GUEST,Eliza

Dave, I am sorry to hear that your childhood had its difficulties, but I am sure your mother had good moral standards, and imparted them to you. It isn't poverty per se which gives rise to criminality but moral poverty. Even people living on a 'sink estate' are incredibly well-off compared to many West African families I have seen. But the moral compass is missing, as are any decent role models. Violence is commonplace, and parenting lamentably bad. A child raised thus is very likely to offend when older.

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22 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM (#3080160)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Dave Hanson

I actually agree with you Eliza, prison doesn't work, and no one knows the answer, but while a hardened criminal is in prison he is not at liberty to go about his illegal business, I nearly included drug dealers but their work seem to carry on even in the clink.

Deep down I know that depriving people in prison of the rights can only have a negative effect but we've long since passed the point where people jump to the defence of the criminals before their victims, you see this every time a householder defends himself against a burglar and gets prosecuted for it.

Dave H

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22 Jan 11 - 03:43 PM (#3080201)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Jim Carroll

"So what do you suggest?"
I have no problem in making criminals answerable to the law Mike, as long as any punishment they receive is overwhelmingly biased towards deterring them from re-offending - where preventing one from voting lies in the grand scheme of things is completely beyond me. That seems like totally and formally alienating him or her from the society we would wish them to be law-abiding members of. Unless our prisons become places of reform, they serve as little more than acts of vengeance guaranteed to produce hardened malcontents armed with skills developed and honed in the very prisons they have been incarcerated in.
I find discussions like this extremely hypocritical, as they are invariably focused on punishing criminals and completely ignore the the behaviour of CRIMINALS.
Last night I watched a CRIMINAL on television; he was emerging from an enquiry into his behaviour, which has led to many thousands of deaths in an illegal war entered into against the wishes of the vast majority of the people who elected him into office. Not only did he refuse to acknowledge his CRIMES, but it is quite likely that he will never have to face legal charges for them.
Over the last few years I have watched with growing anger while it has been revealed that many politicians are in fact CRIMINALS who have systematically defrauded the taxpayer in order to build palaces for their ducks and claim expenses for the upkeep of non-existant residences. Had they been criminals they would have had to face the full force of the law; but as they are merely CRIMINALS, they will never have to answer for CRIMES that have taken millions from the health and education services, and have lowered the standards of living of us proles, who, had we been guilty of similar practices, would be viewing the world through the bars of a prison cell.
Need I go on?
The irony of it all is, of course, that the very CRIMINALS I have just mentioned all play a part in making the laws that they appear to consider themselves above.
Jim Carroll

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22 Jan 11 - 04:16 PM (#3080227)
Subject: RE: BS: Voting 'rights' for convicts
From: Irene M

I am puzzled by the practical issue.
Do they have a vote in the constiuency in which the prison is located or their "home" constituency?
The former could lead to a very interesting outcome given general voter apathy.

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