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23 Apr 11 - 06:58 AM (#3140955) Subject: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe Has anyone any relevant info - songs, stories, etc, on The Topic of Naval Battles (or Land battles) with cannon fire and subsequent storms? |
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23 Apr 11 - 07:31 AM (#3140964) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Keith A of Hertford Trafalgar was followed by a bad storm. All the prizes were lost. |
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23 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM (#3141008) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: doc.tom It was a storm that broke up the Spanish Armada |
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23 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM (#3141043) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Charley Noble What is your interest? Are you thinking that cannon fire and storms might be related or is there some other point? Charley Noble |
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23 Apr 11 - 10:39 AM (#3141044) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Charley Noble A 'divine wind" broke up one of the major attempts by the Chinese to invade Japan. Charley Noble |
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23 Apr 11 - 10:40 AM (#3141045) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Jack Campin A storm blew John Paul Jones's ships out of the forth before he could bombard Leith and Edinburgh. No cannons involved, but the most historically important event like this was the wreck of the Chinese/Mongol invasion fleet that tried to conquer Japan in 1274. |
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23 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM (#3141372) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe I remember as a kid being told that 'the smoke and noise caused the subsequent storm', an idea also alluded to in films. Obviously an 'óld wives tale', but it's a good topic to ask about here. Just wanted to tap into the vast knowledge and experience here - also any relevant songs that mention such events. I can see a possible link between lots of black powder smoke and 'cloud seeding'... |
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23 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM (#3141377) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Charley Noble There's also "The Bold Benjamin" which if you go back to the broadside version as reprinted in John Ashton's REAL SAILOR-SONGS explains that it was a storm that devastated this poor ship, not a battle: We set sail five hundred men, Oh, me boys, ohh! We set sail five hundred men-o! We set sail five hundred men, And we've come back but fifty-one, They was lost on Bold Benjamin, oh! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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23 Apr 11 - 08:50 PM (#3141378) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Jack Campin None of the storms mentioned were little local affairs that could have been affected by human action. The storm that drove back the Mongols was a full-sized typhoon and the one that got the Armada hit everything from the Bay of Biscay to the Shetlands. |
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23 Apr 11 - 09:47 PM (#3141399) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe And also the first had nothing to do with black powder, I think. |
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23 Apr 11 - 10:04 PM (#3141407) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe I also wonder if ships that had taken serious cannon ball damage would be all that seaworthy if a storm came up before proper repairs had been undertaken. |
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23 Apr 11 - 11:01 PM (#3141421) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: kendall All the ones I know about have been mentioned. |
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24 Apr 11 - 12:52 AM (#3141445) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: J-boy I believe the Battle of Jutland was prematurely ended on account of weather. But I may be mistaken. |
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25 Apr 11 - 12:06 AM (#3141979) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe So it looks like non-scientific urban myth, then? Any more relevant songs? |
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25 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM (#3142020) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: GUEST,highlandman at work I don't know how to keep this in a musical vein, but... Patrick O'Brian, who was known for meticulous research, mentioned in several places that this was a commonly held belief in the Royal Navy in the sail age. There is also a similar tradition among land-based soldiery of the 19th century (American Civil War in particular). The history seems to give some support to it, oddly enough. I have wondered before, and will continue to wonder until someone publishes some research, if it has to do with the time it took to move forces into position for a major setpiece battle (naval or land) and the cyclical nature of storms. The idea is that you are tied down by bad weather, you begin to move when conditions clear, and there is - on average - just enough time to maneuver and fight a battle before the next round of bad weather sets in. Just a thought. -Glenn |
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25 Apr 11 - 11:31 AM (#3142035) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Keith A of Hertford Jutland did not end in a storm. It was believed that the massive barrages of WW1 increased the amount of rain. |
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25 Apr 11 - 03:14 PM (#3142156) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: Les from Hull No, Jutland ended in a not-so-unusual natural phenomenon called night, and a series of confused night actions as the German Fleet escaped back to port. In naval battles in the Age of Sail that occurred in light winds, there were reports that the gunfire caused the winds to die (as a result of localised high pressure?). Trafalgar: A French/Spanish counterattack caused Collingwood to remove prize-crews from his prizes. The subsequent storm destroyed most of these but the French Swiftsure, the Spanish Bahama, San Ildefonso, and San Juan Nepomuceno were taken to Britain. |
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25 Apr 11 - 08:37 PM (#3142328) Subject: RE: Folklore: Naval Battles & Storms From: The Fooles Troupe Thanks highlandman at work, I knew it wasn't just me who had heard this 'urban myth'. "Jutland ended in a not-so-unusual natural phenomenon called night, and a series of confused night actions as the German Fleet escaped back to port." In the days before Radar and Satellites, that sort of thing happened a lot, except for one incident alleged in the Bible. :-) |