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Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)

11 May 11 - 02:28 AM (#3151873)
Subject: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

In the song "Old Time Cat O'Nine" by Lord Invader, there's a word I can't quite make in one line: "I say the cat is the only time bomb to drop on this robust ?"

11 May 11 - 02:33 AM (#3151875)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Morwen -
Where's the "and every night" fit in?

Can you post what you have so far?

YouTube Video here (click) - phrase in question is at 2:43 - I'd say "so the cat is the only kind bomb to drop....(unintelligible)."

-Joe-

11 May 11 - 02:38 AM (#3151877)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Never mind. It's "And this robustness will stop." This is probably one of the catchiest songs about corporal punishment for juvenile delinquents. "The old-time cat o'nine, lash them bad and they come to change their mind. Send them Carrera (a prison island) where it licks like fire and they bound to surrender". Are there any other songs about corporal punishment and children or teenagers?

11 May 11 - 02:43 AM (#3151879)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Morwen - how 'bout the entire lyrics, as much as you have?

One song about corporal punishment of children is Liverpool Lullaby, by Stan Kelly, which says, "you'll get a belt from your da."

11 May 11 - 02:51 AM (#3151882)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night...
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Thank you, Joe_F, however I already found out what it is. "And every night" comes from this line: "And every night they walkin(?) about in a van singing a song called "Robust Man". I think "walkin" or the van has to be wrong. This song is about "whip the bad kids. In fact send them to prison. give   so they will be scared into good behaviour". It clearly shows the decade when its composer grew up in. Until very recently corporal punishment was common in schools. Invader is asking for the cat o' nine tails to come back into common use due to the rise of delinquency/hooliganism shortly after WWII.

11 May 11 - 03:12 AM (#3151888)
Subject: ADD: Cat o'Nine Tails (Lord Invader)
From: Joe Offer

Well, Morwen, Mudcat is a cooperative effort where the idea here is to share folk music lyrics for the common good. I share your interest in the song, so I wanted to see your transcription.

But I found the lyrics on the booklet for a Smithsonian Folkways CD titled Lord Invader: Calypso in New York.

CAT O'NINE TAILS
(Lord Invader)


The only thing to stop those Teddy Boys,
From causing panic in Great Britain,
The only thing to stop those hooligans,
From causing panic in England,
Well I hope that the Government,
See they need another kind of punishment,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Is to bring back the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine beat them bad,
And they bound to change their mind,
Is to send them to Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

In the days of Judge Hitchins, as you know,
Nothing never happen so,
Any man pass under his hand,
Can tell you of the rod of correction,
He used to treat them meek and mild,
He never spare the rod to spoil the child,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Is to bring back the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, bring it back,
And they bound to change their mind,
is to send them Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

The police is working harder and harder,
To see this thing go no further,
Every night they on duty,
To safeguard us from violence and robbery,
But they would not stop at all,
Peter is going to pay for Paul,
I say the cat is the only time bomb to drop,
And this "Robustness" must stop

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, lash them hard,
And they bound change their mind,
send them Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

You see that 'though these Teddy Boys haven't got no reason,
Attacking innocent people,
Every night they walking about in a band,
With a razor in their hand,
But the judge and the juries, can settle this thing easily,
I say one thing to cool down this crime,
Just beat them with the old time cat-o-nine.

CHORUS:
So the old time cat-o-nine, beat them bad,
And they bound change their mind,
is to send them to Dartmoor with licks like fire,
And they bound to surrender.

11 May 11 - 03:16 AM (#3151889)
Subject: Lyr Add: OLD TIME CAT O' NINE (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

*Question marks are where there are unintelligible words.


OLD TIME CAT O' NINE
(Lord Invader, 1946)

1. The only thing to stop these hooligans from causing panic in the island,
The only thing to stop these hooligans from causing panic in the island,
Well I go by the government,
See they need another kind of punishment,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to bring back the old time cat o' nine

CHORUS: So the old-time cat o' nine,
Bring it back!
And they come to change their mind,
Send them Carrera where it licks like fire
And they bound to surrender.

2. And in the days of Judge Gilchrist as you know,
Nothing ever happened so,
Any man pass under his hand
Can tell you of the rod of correction
He never treat them meek and mild,
He never spare the rod to spoil the child,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to beat them with the old-time cat o' nine. (CHORUS)

3. The police is working harder and harder to see this thing go no further
Every night they on duty to safeguard us from violence and robbery
But they would not stop at all,
Peter is going to pay for Paul,
I say one thing to cool on this crime
Is to beat them with the old-time cat o' nine. (CHORUS)

4. And every night they walkin' (?) about in a van,
Singing a song called "Robust Man".
(And ? wrote it?) "Robust Man, ????
He got in (jewellery?)
(And say the next thing he believe?)
So the cat is the only time bomb to drop
And this robustness will stop. (CHORUS)

11 May 11 - 03:22 AM (#3151890)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Joe, "Cat O' Nine Tails" is an update of the earlier "Old Time Cat O'Nine". Youtube has both versions.

11 May 11 - 03:30 AM (#3151895)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe Offer

Apparently, the song was also known as Teddy Boy Calypso

11 May 11 - 04:54 AM (#3151924)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Joe, you're right. It is Judge Hitchins. Thanks.

11 May 11 - 05:08 AM (#3151930)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Also, "walkin' about in a band". Forgot that.

11 May 11 - 05:18 AM (#3151935)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

An ENIGMA! regarding this song ~~~~

The album cover shown by clicking on Joe's link above in 2nd post on here gives dates of content 1925-48; and another post above puts 1946 in brackets after title of this calypso.

BUT my recollection, confirmed by Wikipedia, is that the "Teddy-Boys" were definitely a 1950s phenomenon originating in London: "Originally known as Cosh Boys, the name Teddy Boy was coined when a 1953 Daily Express newspaper headline shortened Edward to Teddy" - Wiki. The name derived from a fashion, started by young Guards officers & Cambridge undergraduates in about 1950, for suits based on the long jacket & flared trousers of the Edwardian era 40+ years before, which these upper & upper-middle class young men dropped speedily when a style distantly derived from the fashion were adopted by violent street gangs of the era.

So I am much mystified as to how this designation came to be used in a late-1940s calypso by a Trinidad-born NewYork-based singer {who was also, btw, as matter of interest, one of writers of the celebrated Rum & Coca Cola}.

Can anyone resolve this apparent anomaly, please, which is entirely inimical to my well-know taxonomic inclinations!

~Michael~

11 May 11 - 05:20 AM (#3151936)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Sorry ~ not, of course, "flared", but NARROW trousers.

11 May 11 - 05:27 AM (#3151939)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

He travelled to England in the 1950s and probably witnessed the famous "Notting Hill riots." He is talking about the white British members of street gangs who were notorious for racially motivated attacks on Afro-Caribbean immigrants. The song was originally composed in 1946 under the title "Old-Time Cat O' Nine" and was recorded again with updated lyrics in 1955 under the titles "Teddy Boy Calypso" or "Cat O' Nine Tails". That's why it refers to Teddy Boys.

11 May 11 - 05:41 AM (#3151942)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Many thanks, Morwen, for this prompt and informative reply. I am greatly impressed by your scholarly approach to all your posts -- tho I am sure you will not mind my pointing out, as you are clearly someone like me who likes accurate info, that the Notting Hill riots occurred in 1958, so cannot have directly affected the 1955 rewrite ~~ tho the atmosphere that led up to them was of course already prevalent and relevant.

~Michael~

11 May 11 - 05:47 AM (#3151945)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Thanks, Michael!

11 May 11 - 06:58 AM (#3151977)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

One thing I always wondered was why this song has never been covered. Why hasn't anyone else covered it? Does anyone else think this would make a good cover?

11 May 11 - 07:06 AM (#3151983)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

I think it is the subject matter which has precluded/inhibited this, Morwen. Asked above about recent songs re corporal punishment of children, Joe could only come up with one fairly mild line from a Stan Kelly song. And apart from contexts like old army/navy songs {The Deserter; On Board A Man O'War}, and a few shrew-tamed ballads like Wife Wrapt In Wetherskins/Wee Cooper Of Fife, it isn't too common a traditional subject either. Intro'd into a new song, pace Lord Invader, it might be thought to appear a bit kinky; which might well be what has put singers off giving it mainstream cover.

~M~

11 May 11 - 07:21 AM (#3151991)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

What does "pace Lord Invader" mean? And I get it about it being thought of as kinky, which is funny since "Mama Look a Boo Boo", which isn't about corporal punishment, but is about disrespect to your parents, has the lines "bring the belt, you too damn cudgelent" and "I drag the belt from off me waist, you should hear them screamin' round the place". There are several cover versions of "Mama Look a Boo Boo" on Youtube.

11 May 11 - 07:43 AM (#3152001)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller

"One thing I always wondered was why this song has never been covered. Why hasn't anyone else covered it?"

Probably because it's an absolutely horrendous song that should be consigned to oblivion. Why would anyone want to sing a song that celebrates flogging people?

11 May 11 - 08:01 AM (#3152008)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

Why would anyone want to sing a song that celebrates flogging people?

Well, you you can't beat a good old bit of S&M. Oh, hang on...

On a more serious note - Why not? Folk music covers life, death, hanging, drowning, incest, buggery, necrophilia and a whole host of others I may not even want to imagine!

I, for one, found the thread interesting in as much as I had never heard of Lord Invader before - Now I am off to find more.

Thanks Morwen.

DtG

11 May 11 - 08:02 AM (#3152009)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Charley Noble

"Probably because it's an absolutely horrendous song that should be consigned to oblivion. "

Or it may have been a "modest proposal" for addressing a "horrendous" situation.

Many topical songs have a short half-life.

Charley Noble

11 May 11 - 08:06 AM (#3152012)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Theleveller, the song was written in a specific time period (1946, re-recorded in 1955). Lord Invader, the composer, grew up in the 1920s and attended a Catholic school in Trinidad. Until very recently, corporal punishment of children (including whipping/caning) was commonplace in schools and homes around the world, according to my parents and teachers, who remember corporal punishment from when they were in school. I believe the birch and cat o'nine tails were used to punish young offenders in Britain, America and British colonies.

Invader is singing this song as someone who can remember corporal punishment, or "licks" on the bottom as a punishment (common before the 1950s). He seems from this song to have been one of those adults who say things like "Being whipped never did me any harm." I'd sing it explaining the content, but I wouldn't sing it at a juvenile justice centre, for example. You can choose not to sing it, but if someone wants to sing it, they should introduce it adequately.

11 May 11 - 08:16 AM (#3152018)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller

"Why not? Folk music covers life, death, hanging, drowning, incest, buggery, necrophilia and a whole host of others I may not even want to imagine!"

True, but very few actually RELISH it.

I understand what you are saying Morwen. I was brought up at a time when this was common practice in schools but not, thankfully, in my home. It is not a practice I care to dwell on. I just find the song nauseating. Oh, and it's appallingly written!

11 May 11 - 08:24 AM (#3152022)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Do you mean the Trinidadian dialect, theleveller? There are dozens of songwriters whose writing is worse than Invader's. Some of the pop singers that some of my friends listen to. And it's not easy to write song lyrics. I've tried. In my opinion, Lord Invader was a well-respected calypsonian because he was good with words. You're entitled to your opinion of his work, but to me, it's good.

11 May 11 - 08:37 AM (#3152033)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller

Fair enough, I take your point about dialect - probably loses a lot when written down. If you think that's hard, you should try writing in the East Yorkshire dialect!

As far as the subject matter is concerned, are you saying that it would be OK to perform songs that actively encouraged rape, paedophilia, mutilation or child torture? If not, please explain the difference.

11 May 11 - 08:40 AM (#3152035)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: 'pace' [pronounced either pacey or pah-chay] as I used it above, which you asked about, means 'with due respect to the views of...'.

~M~

11 May 11 - 08:52 AM (#3152042)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

I haven't seen anyone suggesting that activley encouraging rape, paedolhilia etc. is OK. Songs, folk songs in particular, are social comment, surely? If we took them seriously I would quite happily hit Britney Spears just one more time. But most people, not all and I am sure there will be exceptions, fully understand that songs about distasteful subjects do not encourage them. don't they?

DtG

11 May 11 - 09:06 AM (#3152050)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller

"I haven't seen anyone suggesting that activley encouraging rape, paedolhilia etc. is OK."

Exactly my point! So why is this OK?

So the old-time cat o'nine,
Bring it back!
And they come to change their mind,
Send them Carrera where it licks like fire
And they bound to surrender.

Like I said, explain the difference. I wonder how a Jamaican would feel about a song celebrating the floggings inflicted by the slave-owners.

11 May 11 - 09:50 AM (#3152075)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

"Why is this OK?"

Maybe because it is a song of it's day rather than a political point of view? I find it highly unlikely that the song was anything other than ironic but even if it was serious, is anyone going to take notice of a long dead West Indian calypso singer? If we begin to censor songs because they offend presnt day sensibilities we may as well give up folk music altogther. :-(

But, what the heck, too much thread drift already. It is just a folk song after all and Morwen has already got what he (is that right?) came for so I am not going to labour the point.

Cheers

DtG

11 May 11 - 04:06 PM (#3152292)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F

Morwen: I am honored to have been confused with the estimable Joe Offer, but modesty requires me to point out that we are not the same person. %^)

11 May 11 - 04:32 PM (#3152310)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Dave the gnome, I'm a girl.

11 May 11 - 05:12 PM (#3152332)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

The difference is that this song is railing against the crimes committed by juvenile delinquents, who have actually done something to deserve the flogging that's being recommended by Invader. In the second version they have committed racially motivated violence against West Indian immigrants. The difference between them and the slaves is that slaves were (and are) sometimes being racially oppressed and don't have a choice in committing violence against their owners as it's often their easily way to express themselves overtly. The Teddy Boys did have a choice about whether or not they commit these attacks. One is significantly being oppressed while the other group isn't. If I (a Chinese-Australian girl) witness a riot against Chinese immigrants from Southeast Asia in Australia and write a calypso about how the white rioters should be punished in the harshest way possible, I consider myself to be expressing my opinion of racial tensions, especially if they involve beatings and other forms of assault.

11 May 11 - 05:16 PM (#3152338)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Dave the gnome, I wonder what makes you think the song is being ironic? Is it because of the severity of punishment that is being proposed?

11 May 11 - 05:32 PM (#3152350)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for the correction Morwen. Gender does not make much difference to us Gnomes, apart from the length of the beard, but I know it is important to humans:-)

It is a little to do with the severity that makes me think in terms of irony - But it is also that the tradition of the Calypso - In my opinion - has a lot of poking fun at the establishment. You will also notice that he proposes violent punishment for violent crime, which is a prime example of irony in itself. I believe the irony is likely to be intentional as Lord Invader, being West Indian, would have a full understanding of the implications of being brutalised by the authorities.

Just my opinion of course. But anyone who disagrees is obviously wrong...

:D tG

11 May 11 - 05:37 PM (#3152355)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

It could be because of his education. He attended a Catholic school, notorious for their discipline. And as I've said above, corporal punishment was once very common in Western societies and cultures. My own (Chinese-Malaysian) culture uses corporal punishment as a last resort. But it could be ironic.

11 May 11 - 05:41 PM (#3152357)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

I am as sure as I can be that irony was his intention - The fact that he received corporal punishment himself would stengthen the idea.

Have you ever heard Eric Bogles 'I hate Wogs'? Taken out of context it is extemely offensive but once you understand Bogle's intentions it all becomes clear.

Cheers

Dave

11 May 11 - 05:42 PM (#3152358)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Another song which has just occurred to me in which whipping occurs, neither naval/military or shrew-taming, is "Going Down Town" {"Lynchburg Town" in DT} ~~ square-dance/bluegrass style tune with many floaters, but I don't think its two verses about "Going Down Town to get a bottle of wine, Hitched me to the whipping post and gave me 49" &c, occur in other songs. The reasons for the punishments are not specified ~~ they seem purely adventitious.

I learned it originally from singing of Tom Paley.

Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?

~M~

11 May 11 - 05:57 PM (#3152367)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Maybe so, but I'd still introduce it properly if I was going to sing it.

12 May 11 - 01:57 AM (#3152559)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Something else that might be interesting: the Wikipedia article on the cat o'nine tails
says that it is still used as punishment for prisoners in Trinidad and Tobago.

12 May 11 - 03:52 AM (#3152590)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: theleveller

"Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?"

Don't know that one. Is that a problem with you?

12 May 11 - 05:18 AM (#3152616)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan w

'The Teddy Boys did have a choice about whether or not they commit these attacks. One is significantly being oppressed while the other group isn't.'

Well i'd give you an argument about that. The kids that became teddy boys often came from culturally impoverished backgrounds. Post war England was no bed of roses. Ask Derek Bentley how fit the judges were to be handing out such sentences.

Theres nothing ironic about this piece. Corporal punishments was only just off the general statute book (1948 I think). And it was still employed in prisons and on the Isle of man right into the 1960's. My own cousin had regualar nightmares about the beatings handed out to him by the Irish Christian brothers who taught him right into his thirties - apparently all the kids from that school did.

Anyone who advocates corporal punishment is an asshole - regardless of colour, race, or creed - black, brown, pink, aubergine ....arseholes the lot of them.

the song belongs in the joyless dustbin of history - like so many of the gems that young impressionable kids are being encouraged to dig out from the shelves of Cecil sharp house. there is a museum for such stuff - that's the place for it.

All this rooting round in the past is so uncreative. Don't young people have something to say about the here and now that should be finding its way into folksong? do you really think the guys that wrote the songs that are surviving in the public arena - Whisky in the Jar etc were people fretting about the way Sam larner and Maud Karpeles did it.

Will the fact that Trinidad still uses the cat, stop any modern folksingers from going there - in the way that another generation boycotted Franco's Spain and Verwoerd's South Africa? I doubt it - folksong is respectabised somehow nowadays - debollocked.

12 May 11 - 05:29 AM (#3152619)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Yes, but still there are people from impoverished backgrounds who don't do anything like that. Impoverished background doesn't mean that a person will automatically become a criminal. And this song is still a part of history even if you don't sing it.

12 May 11 - 05:48 AM (#3152633)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

And I would sing it- as part of a historical presentation on youth culture or the generation gap, or how adults' views of young people are reflected in folk music, or as part of a Legal Studies task on law reform and young offenders, with a careful explanation of the context. I certainly wouldn't perform it at school or in a singing concert setting, and I wouldn't sing it in front of any older people (or anyone really), with painful and vivid memories of corporal punishment.

12 May 11 - 07:36 AM (#3152650)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

And as a matter of fact, Alan- are you suggesting that the fact that the teddy boys were culturally impoverished is an excuse for their attacks on Afro-Caribbean immigrants? I may be misunderstanding your post, but you seem to be overlooking the fact that they were violently attacking people of a different racial group. Are you suggesting that Lord Invader shouldn't have been angry about this? "Attacking innocent people.. with a razor in their hand." You posted: "The kids that became teddy boys often came from culturally impoverished backgrounds. Post war England was no bed of roses." Yes, that was true. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post.

BUT- if I were in Lord Invader's place, if I was a calypsonian from Trinidad who had immigrated to England looking for performance opportunities and had heard about these young, white kids attacking Black West Indians, I would be very angry and afraid that I would be next.

12 May 11 - 09:21 AM (#3152692)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Morwen, you sing WHAT you want, WHERE you want. That's the essence of artistic freedom, that we all treasure and rely on and is at the heart of the folk revival. Pay no heed to an opinionated old fart like myself.

In defence of the 'teds', I can only say they were creatures of their time. Its hard for anybody to comprehend how insular and small minded the Britain of the 1940's and 1950's was. you heard your parents friends say - the only good German is a dead one. Only the bright kids at Grammar school got French lessons. Why do we need to learn French, we asked , we're not going there unless there's another war. And we lived on the east coast - france was just a few miles away.

The government invited people to come from Commonwealth countries, when there weren't even houses for the people here. And much of the housing was sub-standard. My relations grew up in terraced houses that had been condemned before the Ist world war as unfit for human habitation.

outsiders had a bloody tough time of it. but so did the native population.

12 May 11 - 05:36 PM (#3152989)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh. Yes, there were creatures of their time. So was Lord Invader- he was of his time and was obviously one of those adults who believed that "A whipping never harmed me."

12 May 11 - 06:18 PM (#3153011)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F

I remember from some years ago another northern English song in which a boy gets the buckle end of a belt from his dad for running off & listening to a Salvation Army band! Once again, it is merely incidental -- certainly not propaganda in favor of corporal punishment.

I have come on such advice (tho not in song) in what seems to me an odd place: a review (of a book on police brutality) by the US journalist & critic H. L Mencken, in 1931: "Let [our lawmakers] restore the bastinado, as has been done in England.... The English, when they take a tough boy in an assault with firearms, give him what, in America, would be regarded as a very short term of imprisonment, but they keep him jumping while he is behind the bars by cowhiding him at regular intervals.... In consequence there are very few gunmen in England.... [T]here is really no reason why whipping should be inhumane. In England its aim is not to butcher the culprit but simply to hurt him -- above all, to invade and make a mock of his dignity. It is hard for him, when he gets out, to posture as a hero, for all of his associates know that he has been flogged like a schoolboy, and they can imagine his piteous and unmanly yells."

12 May 11 - 10:08 PM (#3153079)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Joe_F, I would like to see that English song. Could you post its lyrics here?

12 May 11 - 11:28 PM (#3153107)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

"Leveller &c ~ any objections to that one?"

Don't know that one. Is that a problem with you? ====

No prob, leveller; just wondered if your objections to any non-negative refs to CorPun would extend to its matter-of-fact use in the Going Down Town/Lynchburg Town song. But if you don't know it, no sweat.

It is, if interested, in DT as Lynchburg Town. Also on my YouTube thread
http://www.youtube.com/user/mgmyer

~Michael~

13 May 11 - 12:47 AM (#3153138)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Does anyone else here want to weigh in on the ethics of performing "politically incorrect"(I don't know whether or not this song counts as politically incorrect) songs such as this? Anyone want to list songs they feel should never ever be performed again, or that should only be performed in restricted circumstances? Anyone else familiar with this song who might like to talk about whether or not and in what circumstances they would perform it?

13 May 11 - 05:23 AM (#3153216)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan whittle

Well i wouldn't be all that keen on someone honouring tradition by doing the Horst Wessel song. Although similar nationalistic songs (actually not as good songs) get a regular airing.(You do the figuring - I'm not making anymore enemies than I need!)

I always feel The new deserter is a bit ambivalent. Oh well! Its alright cos Prince Albert (or Rupert) lets him off being shot. Once again - a beautiful melody. Wouldn't like to see it go.

13 May 11 - 05:26 AM (#3153217)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I can't think of anyone except a Nazi supporter wanting to perform the Horst Wessel Song.

13 May 11 - 01:20 PM (#3153455)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

I agree with one thing, Alan - Anyone who advocates such punishment is indeed an areshole. But what I disagree with is that there is nothing ironic about the song - I have already stated my reasons. I also don't believe that such songs belong in museums but would it not be better if you didn't use the thread to push your already well known views further? How about you start another thread about where old songs belong? Or I will if you like! We can disagree as much as we like without spoiling someone else's thread:-)

Cheers

dave

13 May 11 - 05:10 PM (#3153593)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Dave the gnome, would you yourself perform this song? Or any other piece that would be in need of an introduction to set it in context? How would you introduce it? BTW when I was first researching this song, I discovered the following review of the "Calypso in New York" in which the reviewer spends a while discussing the song. He (or it could be she) mentions that they went to school in Guyana in the 1950s. They share my (and Alan's) views about the intent of this song. The comments about this song are worth adding: "[Maybe so and I haven't heard the original but] I spent 18 months in the education system of British Guiana, which is both geographically and culturally close to Trinidad, beginning about six weeks before Cat o’Nine Tails was recorded. Remembering the centrality of ‘licks’ (corporal punishment) to discipline in those days, I strongly doubt that there’s any irony involved".
This isn't to say that the song couldn't still be ironic, and the review above says it could still be, but would you perform it or "I hate wogs" by Eric Bogle (i feel a bit funny typing that title) without at least an introduction? Has anyone, singers in particular had any experiences of doing controversial songs? How did you handle the introductions?

13 May 11 - 05:14 PM (#3153596)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

BTW I got the date of the rewrite wrong! Sorry MtheGM, had the distorted memory problem. EDIT to post in which i first replied to MtheGM: song rewrite was recorded March 1959.

13 May 11 - 08:53 PM (#3153705)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F

Morwen: Alas, I do not know the song I described. I heard it a couple of times some years ago from an Englishman who was at Harvard at the time. All I remember is that the chorus rhymed "music near goes through you" with "glory hallelujah". Good luck.

As to the Horst Wessel song, I would certainly not "perform" it if by that you mean sing it in a group; but I would sing it to an individual who wanted to know what it sounded like. It does, after all, live in infamy. It has even been parodied.

13 May 11 - 08:59 PM (#3153708)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I wasn't asking about the Horst Wessel song, Joe_F, but would you perform "Cat O' Nine Tails" in a group?

13 May 11 - 10:02 PM (#3153740)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F

Morwen: You did mention the Horst Wessel song, saying you couldn't imagine anyone but a Nazi sympathizer performing it.

No, I wouldn't sing "Cat o' Nine Tails" at all. Quite aside from its nastiness, it doesn't even scan.

13 May 11 - 10:15 PM (#3153741)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Thanks for the clarification, Joe_F. I guess I didn't make myself clear and I think that when I have the time (no homework or other stuff) I'll make my own recording of "Cat O'Nine Tails" with an introduction like: "This is a song about juvenile delinquency. It proposes a punishment which is intensely harsh and is a reflection of its composer's views and common adult perceptions of youth culture in postwar Britain."

14 May 11 - 06:04 AM (#3153865)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

I think theres some wonderful old songs. I'm not sure this is one of them. I just see a lot of effort expended on songs that to me are unlikely to yield anything much - however presented. On the English folkscene you see regularly really talented people flogging themselves to death with quite dreadful old rubbish (and to be fair some dreadful new rubbish!)

Its up to the individual to judge. You just wish they judged a bit better. Oh come on dave, you know the feeling - three minutes into a song (or tune) about another eight minutes to go or so - and you think why I am here, why is he singing that bloody chorus again...surely singing it first time and the look of despair and suffering on the audiences faces told him something.

14 May 11 - 06:06 AM (#3153867)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

I wouldn't perform the song, Morwen, but purely because I don't do calypsos! If I did I would be happy to do it without introduction. The mere mention of 'Teddy Boys' ensures that everyone would be aware it is not a song of today. Besides - The spoken, or sung, word can be inflected with irony far better than the written word can. I mentioned Britney Spears earlier - Have you ever heard Travis's version of 'Hit me baby'? Try to find it - It will just show how a whole song can be turned on it's head - In a good way;-)

I may do the Bogle song without intro but I would ensure that I asked that everyone wait until the last verse before throwing things at me!

Cheers

Dave

14 May 11 - 06:09 AM (#3153869)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

And, yes Alan, I do know what you mean:-) Well said that man.

D.

14 May 11 - 07:01 AM (#3153893)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

"On the English folkscene you see regularly really talented people *flogging themselves to death* with quite dreadful old rubbish (and to be fair some dreadful new rubbish!)"

===
Just to suggest, Al, that within the context of this thread this might perhaps have been more happily put!

LoL

〠 ;-} ☺

~M~

14 May 11 - 09:05 AM (#3153943)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Ha, ha, *flogging*.

14 May 11 - 12:39 PM (#3154041)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW - My son, who knew nothing of this thread until I mentioned it to him came up with a very good observation - Maybe Lord Invader wanted to draw attention to the violence that the 'Teds' were perpetrating on his people as much as anything else. I don't know but it is would do the trick! Yes?

14 May 11 - 12:53 PM (#3154046)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

DtG ~ that is surely the point that Morwen has been making thruout.

Morwen ~ thank you for your revision to 1959 as date of the rewrite, in which case the Notting Hill riots of the previous year would indeed have been much relevant.

~M~

14 May 11 - 04:44 PM (#3154154)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

You're welcome. MtheGM, what is your opinion of the irony (or lack of it) in this song? Do you believe it is ironic or not?

14 May 11 - 05:11 PM (#3154164)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

MtheGM, after revising the date I posted to the correct one, I am more sure than ever than Lord Invader had the Notting Hill riots at the back or even the forefront of his mind when he wrote this version.

14 May 11 - 06:50 PM (#3154202)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Yes, Morwen: as I said above, 1253 pm, I agree with you.

As to whether I think the song ironic: probably not, I suspect, as Lord Invader a Trinidadian and pretty well all W Indian parents of my acquaintance have been very physically strict with their children ~ all the many W Indian pupils I taught over 30 years as a senior teacher accepted CorPun as quite a normal expectation as a disciplinary measure.

~M~

14 May 11 - 06:54 PM (#3154205)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Same with East Asian immigrants. So would you, if you perform calypso, perform this song with an introduction?

14 May 11 - 07:07 PM (#3154209)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

I don't actually do calypso. But I do sing Lynchburg Town, which has a whipping theme in a couple of verses [it's in my UTube channel BTW]; & have sung The Deserter occasionally. I always give some sort of intro to a song, but don't think I have ever actually addressed that particular aspect.

~M~

14 May 11 - 09:53 PM (#3154258)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

As an extra note related to this song; apparently school corporal punishment is still in use in some parts of the world.

15 May 11 - 02:21 AM (#3154295)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Indeed, Morwen ~~ & certainly, notoriously, judicial CP in mid-Eastern countries, & in N Nigeria where that young girl got 100 strokes of the cane on her bare bottom a few years back for 'immorality', having been gang-raped ~~

~~ & in Singapore & Malaysia with their infamous 4-ft-long, inch-thick canes which have the blood running down to the floor...

...But they have demonstrably low rates of criminality there.

{Not any sort of recommendation or support for these systems. Just saying...}

~M~

15 May 11 - 02:26 AM (#3154296)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

"In this context, UNICEF condemns the decision to allow the public flogging of 17-year-old Bariya Ibrahim Magazu in the northern Nigerian State of Zamfara on Friday, as punishment for becoming pregnant outside of marriage.

Bariya, who cannot read or write, was apparently not aware of her right to appeal her sentence and was not provided with adequate legal counsel. Her case has provoked a torrent of criticism from within Nigeria and around the world - not only because the girl testified that her pregnancy resulted from rape, but because of the fundamental violation of human rights that flogging represents. Bariya was lashed with a cane 100 times on Friday."

UNICEF Press release, Jan 2001

15 May 11 - 03:18 AM (#3154303)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: FYI re note above on schools: particularly so in sub-Saharan African countries. I lived for a while in Sierra Leone in the 1990s, where my wife had a year's lectureship at Freetown Univ. We had some neighbours who were diplomats at US Embassy, so their children had to go to local school; where the usual punishment for misdemeanours was for the offending pupil {boy or girl} to be sent to cut a switch for his/her own buttocks from the trees in the yard. They, & their Embassy, did not think it would be expedient to apply for any sort of diplomatic immunity for their children, who were accordingly subject to the same punishment as all the other children. It didn't seem to bother them much; indeed, I got the impression they were rather proud of being able to take it as well as any of the others, and looked forward to its being a good story which would bring them some cred with their peers when they got back to school in the States!

15 May 11 - 04:05 AM (#3154314)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Anyone who advocates corporal punishment is an asshole - regardless of colour, race, or creed - black, brown, pink, aubergine ....arseholes the lot of them. Guest alan w 12 may

agree with one thing, Alan - Anyone who advocates such punishment is indeed an areshole. Dave the Gnome 13 May
=====
May we, first of all, have a consistent spelling of the organ in question please Alan?

A promising teacher was lost to our school system recently. The daughter of a clergyman friend had opted for Diploma in Education at Cambridge at conclusion of her degree. She jacked it in on being called a "fucking stipid old cunt" by a pupil, against whom no action beyond a mild reproof was subsequently taken, during her first teaching practice. I assured my reverend friend, who appreciated the information, that, when I had been Head of Upper School some years before, prior to abolition of corpun by some governmental well-meaners who knew Sweet Fanny Adams about teaching or children, my pupils did not so address their teachers because they knew what the consequences to their bodily comfort would have been liable to be.

Now, Dave & Alan; kindly point out your rationale in accusing me of arseholeness ~ or should that be arseholility?

~M~

15 May 11 - 05:11 AM (#3154335)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

MtheGM, I'm thinking that I'd have hated to be Lord Invader's (hypothetical) child. (In Trinidadian accent) "You say that to me one more time, you get the belt!" :).

15 May 11 - 05:12 AM (#3154337)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Well three points, just off the top of my head. I haven't campaigned for my beliefs on this issue or anything like that.

1) It was abused dreadfully by many members of the teaching profession - my cousin's treatment by some rotten little bastard in a dog collar, I've already talked about. it was an abuser's charter - used as a means of facilitating sexual abuse also. have you read roald dahl's Boy - I think that book somewhat understaed the case. I just know too many gentle decent people who were abused.

2) It was a bad example to kids - it said tothem - you can sort out your problems with violence. Not your turn yet - wait your turn and you'll be able to get away with this.

3) It stopped working. I started teaching in Brum in 1971. I was a lousy teacher - no real idea how to connect with the kids I was teaching in a tough boys sec mod. (Three of the old boys had actually been hanged) Anyway i got pressured into getting a slipper and using it, mainly to cover up my own inadequacy, looking back.

The kids were refusing to accept it. they knew their parents would back them to the hilt. Society had just moved on. And not before time.

15 May 11 - 05:39 AM (#3154344)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Not entirely in disagreement with you, Al: just feel two sides to every 'arsehole' allegation. I agree re Xtian Bros' gross & notorious overuse; but think in turn of my clergy friend's nice young daughter's feelings of let-down when nothing adequate done to the yobbo who abused her! Remember, you got that slipper to reinforce your own discipline; whereas, as Head of Upper School, my job was to provide support for the likes of that young woman, & it was essential for any young teacher put in her invidious situation to feel that something adequate had been done to express her, and the school community's as a whole [including most parents'], outrage with her abuser. I generally had parental support in such a case.

~M~

15 May 11 - 05:58 AM (#3154350)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Well I remember thinking at the time - this is a bit like that Shhoting an Elephant essay by Orwell. As you say - we were both expected to act in this way, and there was actually very little room for manoeuvre. Once you had stood up and said that you would accept the job - that's what you had to do. orwell said it was the situation of the British in India. Apparently powerful - but with few choices about how to proceed.

my Dad was a cop. I asked him about the stuff he had to do. He had been at the liberation of the camps - he said - don't you worry, I know there are limits. they ask to go over them - I'll tell them to stuff their job.

15 May 11 - 06:23 AM (#3154360)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Genuinely not that much disgreement between us Al; though our mileages clearly vary to an extent.

On the matter of 'violence' which you raised: I OPd a thread a while back on punishment as a concept. IMO all punishment is to an extent violent, by definition, because, by its nature, it consists of forcible imposition by the 'awarding' authority on the recipient of an experience he would have preferred not to undergo: otherwise it just isn't a punishment. School pupils are not generally stupid: they know the difference between bullying a younger or weaker pupil and receiving an organised and reasonably moderate physical punishment as a consequence; and would never regard the latter as any sort of justification for the former.

In the same way your father, as I perceive it, clearly recognised the difference between reasonable restraint of a violent criminal and the sort of abuse to which occasional black sheep amongst the constabulary are unfortunately prone.

Orwell was a brilliant man in his way, but a bit of an upper-class dropout & do-gooder. I would not personally accept all his views as indisputable.

~M~

15 May 11 - 06:36 AM (#3154364)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

... and another point I made in another thread [or maybe it was earlier in this one?] re the famous naval mutinies in late C18 at Spithead and The Nore. I pasted a bit from Wiki pointing out that they were less real *mutinies* than what we would now regard as *strikes* against certain aspects of the conditions of the service at the time: and I added that it was significant that the use of flogging of crews and caning of midshipmen & ships' boys did not form any sort of issue, being apparently accepted as just a sort of natural nautical phenomenon by the seamen of the time!

So most school pupils until 20-odd years ago. Since when, many will consider school discipline to have deteriorated and teaching to have become an unattractive profession to many, like my friends' daughter. Whether post hoc ergo propter hoc {'cause & effect'}, or whether both phenomena are factors of other underlying societal shifts may be a matter for dispute; but it will be obvious what my opinion is.

~M~

15 May 11 - 06:39 AM (#3154367)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

... and i don't accept that that confers 'arsehole' status on me!

15 May 11 - 07:02 AM (#3154374)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: Wiki entry on Lord Invader doesn't say much of his personal life, so don't know if he had any children in fact. But if he had, I am sure he would have loved them and they him, even if he had occasionally used a strap on them [which he might just have been saying anyhow for the effect of his song!]. I gather that you have been fortunate enough not to have experienced any such; but if you had I am sure it would not have made any difference to your love for your parents. It didn't in the days when it was a normal expectation. I know my own grandfather kept a 'cat' at home to threaten my Uncle David, who, my mother told me, was a very naughty boy; tho Grandpa was in general too indulgent actually to use it. Uncle Dave grew up to be the richest of the eight brothers and sisters of whom he & my mother were two!

~M~

15 May 11 - 07:14 AM (#3154378)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Paul Burke

According to V S Naipaul (I think in The Overcrowded Barracoon) there is a deep tradition in the West Indies (Trinidad in his experience) of fatherhood as often both neglectful and violent. He points out the word used for physical chastisement - bless - had (in the 50s) acquired a respectability from the English root of the word and Biblical attitudes to punishment, but is in fact derived from the French word blesser- to wound.

15 May 11 - 07:21 AM (#3154379)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

MtheGM, in the case of someone like Lord Invader, who is relatively obscure, i.e not someone the general public will have heard of, the only people who would write a Wkipedia article about someone like that are people who are relative "experts" , such as people who are from the same country as the subject. As I said a few posts above, I am of East Asian (Chinese) heritage and my parents sometimes threatened me with a cane when I misbehaved. You're right though, it doesn't make any difference to my love for them. My comment about hating Lord Invader if he had been my father was a joke. But I am sure he would have been a strict parent. And I'll add something else; if he'd been my father, I might've gone on for days about "Hey guys, my dad wrote "Rum and Coca-Cola" and is a really famous singer back home! (Trinidad)"
:).

15 May 11 - 08:09 AM (#3154403)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

That song, Rum & Coca Cola, is really something to be proud of too. I had it in my childhood on an old Andrews Sisters 78 record from the 40s, as flipside to One Meat Ball.

~M~

15 May 11 - 05:41 PM (#3154662)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

yeah, it is. Anyway, as I said above, I'd have been talking about that fact for a long time until I got a lecture along the lines of: "Why are you listening to that song? I didn't write it for kids!" :). ha ha ha!

15 May 11 - 06:22 PM (#3154690)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

From MtheGM

Now, Dave & Alan; kindly point out your rationale in accusing me of arseholeness ~ or should that be arseholility?

in response to my

Anyone who advocates such punishment is indeed an areshole.

Why even ask, MtheGM? Opinions need no explanation. I believe that anyone who advocates the flogging of people in the way the song describes is an arsehole. Not a particularly difficult, new or uncommon belief, I understand. I don't see you advoctaing that people should be flogged with a cat of nine tails though - So why do you think I am accusing you of being an arsehole?

Some people...

DtG

15 May 11 - 06:28 PM (#3154701)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and as to 'that is the point Morwen has been making thuout(sic)'.

I think we must be discussing different threads. I thought Morwen has been asking from the word go if it is acceptable to sing the song. But I will accept I could be wrong. Let's ask.

Morwen - Is the point you have been making all along that Lord Invader was bringing the plight of the down-trodden West Indian to the attention of the British public? If so, why do you think it even may be wrong to sing it

Cheers

DtG

15 May 11 - 06:36 PM (#3154703)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I remember once reading a book on calypso (on Google Books) which mentioned that many old-time calypsonians fathered illegitimate children but did not take much responsibility for them. None of the biographies of Invader mention any descendants, so (It is probably safe to assume) it is highly unlikely he had children. True, if he was one of "those" calypsonians with illegitimate children- and most of the singer-songwriters I've heard include at least one reference to their children in their songs- he mightn't mention it.

15 May 11 - 06:38 PM (#3154704)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I think it might be wrong because of the fact that not everyone os going to get the message; that it is a song specific to a particular time period.

15 May 11 - 06:51 PM (#3154708)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Sorry , I should have said "I think there might be problems because"

15 May 11 - 08:05 PM (#3154735)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Then again, would *anyone* with illegitimate children in that time period really mention it, even if they were male? Not saying that Invader had them, just saying that if he did, it would most likely not be something that he talked about. And again, not writing about your family doesn't mean that you don't have one, it just means you don't like to write about personal things.

15 May 11 - 11:15 PM (#3154797)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh

16 May 11 - 12:40 AM (#3154819)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Dave 15 May 6.22 pm~ your 'such punishment' ref'd back to Al's simple advocation of'corporal punishment' as qualificatn 4 arsehole. You did not specify flogging with the cat as in Invader's calypso.

"Some people" right back 2U...

Interested in your other ?, re Morwen's precise meaning thruout, which she does not appear to me yet to have answered.

~M~

16 May 11 - 12:44 AM (#3154820)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

... tho would reiterate that she has mentioned the Notting Hill Riots, and activities of Teds in general, more than once, which seems to me to answer your son's point as rubricated in your post to which I was replying in my "thruout" post, Dave. Would you seriously disagree with that?

16 May 11 - 12:49 AM (#3154823)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I believe it to be a problem because some people (those not familiar with the historical context) might believe that I advocate corporal punishment for delinquents. My meaning throughout this thread is that I believe Lord Invader was attempting to draw attention to the problems i.e. racial violence, faced by West Indian immigrants to England such as himself as well as suggest a quick and efficient way of dealing with the threat of teenage street violence: "The judge and the Juries can settle this thing easily".

16 May 11 - 12:52 AM (#3154825)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Thank you, Morwen. I think that answers your son's point and supports my rejoinder to it ~~ agreed, Dave?

16 May 11 - 01:00 AM (#3154827)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

MtheGM, what do you think about the fact that apparently some calypsonians fathered illegitimate children? According to my research, he seems to have been the typical man in his situation i.e. apparently some calypsonians lived off the money given to them by women. He wrote quite a few songs about his (numerous) love affairs. I have also read a book mentioning the role that some calypsonians "did not acknowledge their role in the pre-World War Ii exploitation of women'.

16 May 11 - 01:12 AM (#3154832)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: My understanding of the culture concerned is that this was fairly common practice in W Indian communities: from which comes the term "my baby-father" which I have heard that many W Indian women use to refer to their absent or casual partners. But this is from hearsay only, and I would not set myself up as having enough direct knowledge to "think" anything specific "about it".

~M~

16 May 11 - 01:25 AM (#3154835)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

This would, if true, of course make the idea that he would never mention any children he had more plausible. As I said above, illegitimacy was a stigma in all communities (I believe) until quite recently.

16 May 11 - 01:42 AM (#3154839)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.

My care in the community done for the day. I'm out of here.

DtG

16 May 11 - 01:43 AM (#3154840)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: Do you live in the part of E Asia I mentioned above (in reply to a point you made about the reported survival of corporal punishment in some places) where punishments of up to 24 strokes with a heavy 4-ft cane are still given, often in addition to a prison sentence, to rapists or other violent criminals? If so, what do you think about that?

FAO Dave: I would add to this question, addressed to Dave, that I am not sure that I would advocate return of the cat; but if anyone recommended the re-use of the (probably a bit less severe) birch for hoodies who mug old ladies I should not lose any sleep over the prospect of some of the yobbos getting it. Where that leaves me in the 'arsehole' stakes is a matter for your consideration, not mine.

~M~

16 May 11 - 01:49 AM (#3154844)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I live in Australia. I was born in Australia in the 1990s, as was my younger brother. My parents are both from Malaysia, born and raised there. I have relatives in Singapore. I believe the Singaporean punishment for drug traffickers is too harsh, especially since as you said, sometimes the blood runs down to the floor.

16 May 11 - 01:52 AM (#3154845)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

In South Korea (according to my research), they still have corporal punishment in schools, but I don't know about it as a criminal penalty. Better research that.

16 May 11 - 02:27 AM (#3154858)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

---Yes, MtheGM, if it makes you happy to win points in meaningless discussion, then I agree with your every point. You are the epitome of all things holy and the sun shines out of your arse.---

Ever-gracious in defeat, Dave the Gnome, isn't he just!!!!

16 May 11 - 02:47 AM (#3154871)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Morwen: purely as a factual point; I don't think my Oz relatives would care to hear Australia defined as E Asia!

16 May 11 - 02:49 AM (#3154872)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Ha! I am Chinese Australian!

16 May 11 - 02:52 AM (#3154874)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

It is my ethnicity, not my nationality.

16 May 11 - 02:53 AM (#3154876)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Quite so; but did you not say above somewhere that you lived in E Asia? ~~ or have I misremembered?, in which case apologies of course.

Best

~M~

16 May 11 - 04:37 AM (#3154903)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I think you misremembered my post! :). And now we know how Lord Invader got money when he wasn't singing! :). Interestingly, the only two songs he wrote about parenthood/parental themes are a version of "Brown Skin Girl" with these lines: "What's wrong with you, Miss Ivy?/Why you trying to trap me with that baby?/We only got together in November/And the baby was born in September" and one (I don't know the title, might it be "That Child Ain't Mine"?) which says, "Miss Daisy, you must be crazy/Why you brought me up for bastardy/This Daisy she had ambition/And she was friendly with a Yankee man/But they sent the fella back to America/So she want to pin it on the Invader/But me head is hard and knotty/I can't make no straight-hair baby/" then something I can't remember, and "When the baby born stick your grind/No darling, that child ain't mine".
What does that say about him?
:).

16 May 11 - 07:33 AM (#3155004)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I think that in the last section of the song I quoted, the lines are:
When the baby born, stick your grind
No, darling, that child ain't mine.

16 May 11 - 08:28 AM (#3155034)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh.

16 May 11 - 06:02 PM (#3155371)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

refresh

16 May 11 - 06:40 PM (#3155400)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: Joe_F

Mention of Orwell reminds me that in "Such, Such Were the Joys" he recalls being cured of bedwetting by being beaten in his boarding school (St Cyprian's in England). He also says: "There was a boy named Beacham, with no brains to speak of, but evidently in acute need of a scholarship. Sambo was flogging him towards the goal as one might do with a foundered horse. He went up for a scholarship at Uppingham, came back with a consciousness of having done badly, and a day or two later received a severe beating for idleness. 'I wish I'd had that caning before I went up for the exam,' he said sadly -- a remark which I felt to be contemptible, but which I perfectly well understood."

That would have been about 1916.

16 May 11 - 06:45 PM (#3155404)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Joe_F, that's interesting.

16 May 11 - 07:05 PM (#3155413)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

And another extra note: in both songs, Invader tells the girl who is trying to "oops" him with half-white babies that it is physically impossible for him to have fathered her children. "Girl you can't fool me like that, tell me how a monkey can make a cat".

17 May 11 - 03:01 AM (#3155525)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Thanks Joe - i checked that one out - its available online. Its odd what Mike said about Orwell being such an oddball.

I can remember being repulsed by his candour when I was younger. Not just brutal facts, but downright embarrassing facts. Years and years too late - I can remember stumbling upon the truth about myself that I had no great taste for truth telling and brutal honesty. And for that reason, I had wasted much of my life trying to be a writer.

Its those candid revelations - like the

' a remark which I felt to be contemptible, but which I perfectly well understood.'

which make the hairs of your neck stand up - this is a guy who WAS there, and is telling the absolute truth as he saw it and felt it.

17 May 11 - 03:32 AM (#3155537)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Anyone have comments on the "Miss Daisy/"That Child Ain't Mine" song? What I find particularly interesting is the reference to "brought me up for bastardy". I assume that meant that she tried to force him to pay child support.

17 May 11 - 04:06 AM (#3155551)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Funny thing. Seems like he wrote other songs about parenthood:"As Long As It Born In My House, It Is Mine (Lt. Joe Song)" and in "It Is Time For The Women To Rule" he mentions "being left to mind the children at home'. What is interesting about the first one is that Invader perfectly accepts the fact that his lover's child may not be his and he says, "I don't care if I'm not its biological father, it's still my child because it was born in my house", a marked contrast to the views he expresses in "Brown Skin Girl" in which he refuses to take responsibility for Miss Ivy's child fathered by an American soldier. What caused this contrast in views, assuming that the first one is autobiographical?

17 May 11 - 08:23 AM (#3155651)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Sorry. The second song is called "Women Trying To Rule".

17 May 11 - 05:37 PM (#3155945)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh.

18 May 11 - 02:37 AM (#3156120)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

No one has opinions? It may either be autobiographical or not. It is, in my opinion, not implausible (understatement) that a popular calypsonian with a reputation built on his many romances and rough-edged character- a reputation referred to by the Duke of Iron in his cover of "Small Island"- Invader is referred to as "saying that he made his name fooling around with the women in Port-of Spain", a line with clear implications, would be "oopsed", as well as (possibly) the father of illegitimate children. Does anyone else share this opinion?

18 May 11 - 07:13 AM (#3156223)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

*being

18 May 11 - 05:22 PM (#3156569)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh

19 May 11 - 04:55 PM (#3157188)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Reminded of another traditional song of a different type, a children's game, in which cor-pun of children occurs, by the refreshing of the thread on "I'm going down town to smoke my pipe" ~~ qv, & note the variants in the last line of the terrible punishments which will come to the one who lets the witch in..

~M~

19 May 11 - 07:36 PM (#3157262)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

That reminds me of the fact that the original "Old Time Cat O'Nine", referred to those members of the steel bands who had a reputation for hooliganism. "You've done WHAT? Joined a steel band?" *Sound of a strap on the buttocks* :).

19 May 11 - 07:51 PM (#3157269)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

"And if you don't step into line and don't stop cryin', I'm sendin' you to Carrera, where you'll get a real licking!" :). All right, no more Lord Invader jokes, unless you like them.

20 May 11 - 01:25 AM (#3157369)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Does anyone want to add more opinions?

20 May 11 - 01:47 AM (#3157374)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Also, "Mama Look A Boo Boo", which I believe I have mentioned further up the thread, is about a father who is constantly teased by his kids because of his ugliness. "Come here a moment, bring the belt, you too damn cudgelent".

21 May 11 - 05:38 AM (#3158018)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh.

21 May 11 - 08:40 PM (#3158438)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: GUEST,alan Whittle

I'm beginning to worry about you Morwen. If you want to do an act with all these flagellation songs - are you intending to dress as a dominatrix?

there may well be a market for it - that's a worrying thought.

21 May 11 - 11:12 PM (#3158488)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

This is the only song explicitly about whipping that I'll ever sing in public.

22 May 11 - 03:31 AM (#3158534)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MGM·Lion

Al ~~ Is there perhaps a somewhat censorious tone in your last post? Why 'worrying'? That doesn't happen to be one of my predilections, & clearly none of yours either; but why should it 'worry' you if it is some people's? Don't forget the wise words of Disraeli: "For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like". Or those of Mrs Patrick Campbell, "What does it matter what these affectionate people do, so long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses?"

~Michael~

22 May 11 - 04:57 AM (#3158548)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

No one needs to worry. I'm not planning to do anything like that. Funny that no one has commented on my jokes about getting the strap for joining a steel band. ;).

22 May 11 - 04:59 AM (#3158551)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

And btw, "Mama Look A Boo Boo" might be introduced with something like, "This song is for all the parents and teachers. It's very relatable".

23 May 11 - 12:04 AM (#3158970)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Refresh.

24 May 11 - 02:25 AM (#3159540)
Subject: RE: Lyrics: And every night... (Cat o'Nine Tails)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Is anyone still interested in this thread? There are other calypsos talking about the cat o'nine tails, among them a song called "Corporal Punishment." Strange that no-one has commented on the fact that this song originally dealt with steel bands.

30 May 11 - 10:45 PM (#3162898)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Jim Dixon

Here's how I hear verse 4 of OLD TIME CAT O' NINE:

And every night they walkin' about in a van,
Singing the song called "Robust Man."
Have you heard it? "I'm a robust man.
Don't ....(?)"
The judge and jury can settle this thing easily,
So the cat is the only time bomb to drop
And this robustness will stop.

30 May 11 - 11:50 PM (#3162906)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MGM·Lion

Another song in which parent-child cp occurs, it has just come back to me: ~~ some versions of "17 Come Sunday", a thread on which has just been refreshed, & in which I posted the following a while back:

---"'Age of consent', oft referred to in this thread, is an arbitrary man-made and variable construct anyhow, not a Law of Nature. There was no such in British law till mid-C19. The girl in the song, taking it to date from earlier than that, and the young narrator, would have been breaking no laws except parental prohibitions — which could, tho, be effective: I recall one version where the mother

"seized her by the hair of her head
And out of the room she brought her
And with the butt of a hazel twig
She was the well-paid daughter"."---

~M~

04 Jun 11 - 08:55 AM (#3165141)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Have just found the "religious" song "The Bitter Withy" in another thread which would sound great in a hypothetical medley with "Old-Time Cat O'Nine".

09 Aug 11 - 06:06 AM (#3204465)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer

I love this song and sometimes perform it (ironically) with my calypso revival band the Bamboo Band. In the light of recent events it may be time to dust it off.

Morwen I believe the version of Brown Skin Gal you mention is by Mighty Terror, not Invader.

Also, when I listen to the late 50's version (Teddy Boy Calypso) of the Invader song I hear the line as "The cat is the only H-Bomb to drop" rather than "time-bomb", does anyone else agree?

09 Aug 11 - 08:26 AM (#3204521)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

James Fryer- so there IS a performer on this site who performs old-time/vintage calypso and this song! :)Mighty Terror *covered* the Lord Invader version of "Bröwn Skin Gal" . Incidentally, I want to be a tent calypsonian myself :).

09 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM (#3204681)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer

Can you point me at a Lord Invader version of Brown Skin Gal?

I am hoping to go to the London Calypso Tent this year but wouldn't dare perform!

09 Aug 11 - 02:37 PM (#3204754)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The cover of Lord Invader's BSG may be close (thread 49824), but not sure.
Brown skin girl

Lord Invader sings it on Folkways FP-914, "Calypso," but I don't have that disc.

09 Aug 11 - 05:29 PM (#3204882)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer

I found a copy, I had no idea that Invader had sung it, thanks.

09 Aug 11 - 06:26 PM (#3204912)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

James, I think most calypsonians need *training* before they can perform in public. Some may have natural ability, but even *they* need training to develop the skills. That's why I plan to study ethnomusicology in university after I've left school after my HSC (I'm Australian) and get the training in extempo singing, picong etc. from an actual Trinidadian calypsonian.

10 Aug 11 - 02:37 AM (#3205110)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST,James Fryer

Wow! That is impressive and I hope you allow us to follow your progress somehow. I am not sure it's a university thing though -- surely you need to go to T&T, or anywhere else with a thriving calypso scene (Toronto springs to mind) and learn directly from the calypsonians?

Although I enjoy modern calypso, really my aim is to revive the "old time" calypso rather than to be part of the modern calypso scene. There are so many great songs which are being forgotten.

It seems to me that the character of modern calypso is different. It's very political. Look at De Fosto's "Palace State of Mind" or Cro-Cro's "Compare and Contrast". Both great songs, but they are very specific to their context. "Cat O Nine" and "Brown Skin Gal" both achieve timelessness in a way those modern songs won't.

10 Aug 11 - 07:36 AM (#3205218)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

I *am* planning to learn directly from calypsonains in Trinidad.. after I've done my last trial exam (tomorrow), revised in detail for the real HSC (in a couple months), and (hopefully) got into university to study ethnomusicology.

10 Aug 11 - 05:19 PM (#3205621)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

EDIT: *calypsonians*

10 Aug 11 - 05:32 PM (#3205628)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Gibb Sahib

The theme of punishment is very common in Jamaican songs. I can't speak to Trini ones, but the comparison to Jamaica may be reasonable.

The "Judge Dread" series of songs (in Jamaican music) was about punishing rude bwoys (i.e. analogous to Teds) and very popular to this day. The rude bwoys were famously sentenced to 400 years and X number of lashings, and when the accused cried, they were told that "rude boys don't cry." They were also part of a dialogue in which others spoke to the social circumstances of the accused hooligans. Prince Buster was the main "judge", and Lee Perry was the apologist.

Lots of other songs have a religious tone, wherein the Divine is asked to whip/lick/burn/etc. the evil doers.

10 Aug 11 - 05:50 PM (#3205639)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The University of the West Indies (Kingston Jamaica) offers a program in Heritage Studies.

10 Aug 11 - 10:07 PM (#3205758)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

James, do you sing this in a Trinidadian accent? I sing this song at home and I always sing it in a Trinidadian accent.

11 Aug 11 - 07:17 AM (#3205922)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: GUEST

I have to adopt an accent to some extent because of the idioms used (not so much in this song, but many songs have Caribbean phrases such as "me say" and so on).

This is problematical these days because it can be seen as offensive, and I don't want to offend anyone, already being a white English singer appropriating black music!

However, the calypsonians of the golden age sang in quite "westernised" accents anyway, to demonstrate their erudition, so I try to emulate them as much as possible. I probably sound pretty odd to a Trinidadian though.

11 Aug 11 - 08:33 AM (#3205959)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: MorwenEdhelwen1

Calypso has never been *exclusively* Black. One of the earliest calypsonians was a White Frenchman called Cedric Le Blanc, who sang in the 1800s-1900s, when calypsonians were known as chantwells. He was the composer of "Oh, Not A Cent", an English-language song and the subject of the thread Lyr Req: Oh, Not A Cent at the top of this page.

11 Aug 11 - 08:42 AM (#3205963)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Old Time Cat o' Nine (Lord Invader)
From: James Fryer

I am not aware of any white calypsonians operating now though.