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05 Apr 12 - 05:27 PM (#3334209) Subject: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sulliv From: Jack the Sailor Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan. I read a very interesting article in NewsWeek today. It encompasses and expands on many of my religious beliefs. It also nicely encapsulates many of my fears and criticisms about organized religion. At first I was going to include this post in the "Creationist Eureka" thread that I started. But I feel that this article is too good and too serious to be discussed in the silly light I originally cast on that subject. Please read the article and discuss how it compares to your own arguments and beliefs on religion. |
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05 Apr 12 - 06:08 PM (#3334228) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Desert Dancer I read Andrew Sullivan's The Dish blog regularly. I appreciate his perspective (even if I don't always agree with it) and his airing of alternative views. It's a fairly eclectic assortment of stuff (which some key issues that are followed). He calls himself Catholic (or has, at least), but as that article shows, he has strong disagreements with the teachings of the Church hierarchy, not least because he's openly gay. He has coined the term "Christanist" (in parallel with a term coined earlier, "Muslimist") to designate those who proclaim their religion and push it in the public sphere, but who don't necessarily seem to follow its core teachings well. As a non-Christian, I read his posts on religion for my liberal education. ~ Becky in Tucson |
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05 Apr 12 - 06:36 PM (#3334237) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth Looks good, Jack. I haven't had a chance to read it thoroughly yet, but I will. I'll be back. Don Firth |
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05 Apr 12 - 09:34 PM (#3334290) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Little Hawk I've read it, and I think it's an excellent article, Jack. There are a good number of Christians who do see it the same way Arthur Sullivan does. A fair number of them in this town, I'd say, and there are definitely some very progressive ministers in this town who see it as he does (several of them being women, by the way). This line in his article really struck me: "What is politics if not a dangerous temptation toward controlling others rather than reforming oneself?" BINGO! That is what I dislike so much about politics. We are in this life not to control others, but to control and reform ourselves, and that is exactly what Jesus was teaching and so powerfully demonstrating in his own selfless and loving conduct. He also taught that we should love one another, forgive one another, help one another with no thought of our own gain, and do no violence to one another. Those teachings...if enough people took them really seriously and acted on them...could heal the world. Those teachings are also directly opposed to aggressive robber baron capitalism and marketing, as it is presently being practiced, as well as aggressive communism, and indeed all aggressive forms of political and financial control. They are also opposed to launching "pre-emptive" wars, needless to say... It is selfishness and the desire for personal gain at the expense of others that is the secret (or not so secret) agenda behind our ruling political and financial powers these days. They have a lot...they want even more. If Jesus was here now, and enough people were listening to him, I bet the present ruling powers would label him a "terrorist" and would attempt to do away with him as quickly as possible. They'd kill him. (and that's just what the ruling powers in his day did too, and for the same reasons...they were afraid of losing their dominance over the minds of the common people, and perhaps losing their privileged status in the process) How much has really changed? |
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05 Apr 12 - 10:00 PM (#3334295) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Bobert Well, as a Follower of Christ, it has become very difficult to find a church that isn't about political indoctrination... BTW, Jesus' teachings ain't rocket science and I think He'd be plenty pissed off at just how many folks using "faith" (ha) to justify some messed up behaviors... B~ |
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06 Apr 12 - 04:12 AM (#3334378) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Interestingly, the guy sums up, rather succinctly, some of the waffle I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to put across in the young earth thread Jack mentions. I have nothing but respect for people who can use a set of values to live by, and the glimmer of hope in the salvation or whatever it is that belief can offer. I abhor the control freak status of many organised religions though, and found this both interesting and thought provoking. |
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06 Apr 12 - 04:21 AM (#3334384) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza Within any church (as in our village) there's a wide selection of religious types, from the casual to the sincere to the fundamentalist control freak. In fact I'd say that each member of a church is slightly different and unique in what they believe and what they bring to the community. Even among the disciples of Jesus there were huge differences in approach and commitment. I personally feel the best Church is that which encompasses as many as possible of all these without condemnation or exclusion. IMO the C of E does quite well (but not perfectly) in achieving this. |
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06 Apr 12 - 04:41 AM (#3334394) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford I too am a member of the C of E and just want to endorse what Eliza said. I am away to an outdoor service in Hertford involving all the denominations in the town. |
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06 Apr 12 - 10:22 AM (#3334483) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: bobad Another Boy For Jesus |
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06 Apr 12 - 10:41 AM (#3334491) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger I support the myth of Jesus (as does Joseph Campbell) as a teaching device. The character of Jesus is defined specifically in the Beatitudes which means that Christianity if it is to be consistently taught, is a Pacifist religion. Any deviation from this view is incorrect. (Thou shalt not kill and turn the other cheek). Non-violent resistance is consistent with the character of Jesus in the Beatitudes. The violent apologist Saint Augustine corrupted Christianity with his "just wars" doctrine. The historical existence of Jesus can't be established, not in the Dead Sea Scrolls or earlier accounts of Christianity. There is no DNA, no scientific support for this existence. That said, there is value in the pacifistic character of Jesus and any attempt to paint this character as a warrior or an apologist for war is Orwellian. |
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06 Apr 12 - 10:46 AM (#3334493) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Well, as a Follower of Christ, it has become very difficult to find a church that isn't about political indoctrination..."" If following Jesus' message in everday life is what you normally do, then your church is wherever you happen to be and you need no other. If you have the ability to deal directly with the manufacturer, why do you feel that you need wholesalers or retailers? I've lived all my adult life with that belief and always tried (moderately successfully) to do what Jesus would have wanted. Black frocks and back to front collars signally fail to impress, because even the best of them are inadvertently diluting rather than teaching the pure message as delivered by the man himself. Don T. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:02 AM (#3334501) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Religion is politics. That's why it's important to observe the Separation of Church and State. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:03 AM (#3334502) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford They are good rules to live by Don, but a church is a community. Not all churches use regalia or even leaders. "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:10 AM (#3334512) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford How important Stringsinger? England-Britain-UK has struggled on for a thousand years in spite of it. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:11 AM (#3334513) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Many communities can become cults. This is possible among churches. The famous Native American chief observed that churches are where white men go to fight about god. "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." The big question is who is "I"? Seems to be a difference of opinion on this issue. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:23 AM (#3334518) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Arkie From reading the four gospels, one could conclude that the Sadducees were the ultra conservatives of first century Judaism. The Pharisees may have been liberal compared to the Sadducees but they were legalists. Both groups put form above personal discipleship or defined discipleship by adherence to form and ritual. One could conclude that the real struggle facing Jesus was not "Judaism" but radical conservatism, a defense of an archaic belief system. A system that was also condemned by Old Testament prophets. Many of those prophets suffered or died at the hands of defenders of the "system". The Apostle Paul was challenged by "legalists" and warned against the legalists in the early church through his letters. Readers often assume that the legalists were Jewish Christians, but here again the problem was not the "Jewish" part but the insistence on forcing others to accept or follow the system supported by the legalists. One of the things that disturbs me about modern legalists or radical conservatives is the disregard of truth. To so many of this ilk, "truth" is whatever they choose it to be. They are as likely to place Fox News on the same level or possibly a higher level than the Bible. They declare that truth comes from a certain sector and all else is falsehood. "Moderate" is now a bad word in some sectors. Enough from me. Jack, thanks for posting the article. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:42 AM (#3334527) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""The big question is who is "I"? Seems to be a difference of opinion on this issue."" That is a difference of opinion which is (or should be) acceptable to moderates on both sides of the argument. Real science has never stated, or tried to prove, that there is no God. Their position remains that in terms of what they have discovered about the Universe there is no scientific evidence of the need for one. Moderate believers have faith in the existence of a God, but are also capable of understanding that this cannot be scientifically proven. However many of those people are scientists also, and are able to reconcile their work and their faith without difficulty. The point that bothers me about the quote is this sentence: " "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."" I have, as I said above, always treated my faith as something private between me and God. Have I got it wrong through all these years, and should I go looking for another to join me? I ask because to me that starts to sound like an organised religion, which is exactly what I have been avoiding.........Bugger!! Don T. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:52 AM (#3334533) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,CS Follow Jesus not religion. Isn't that supposedly what J was on about in the first place? Live right -and here are some pointers- but don't turn my teachings into some new religion? |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:02 PM (#3334538) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Desert Dancer (correction to my post: "Islamist", rather than "Muslimist") ~ Becky in Tucson |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:10 PM (#3334541) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."" I have, as I said above, always treated my faith as something private between me and God. I have no trouble believing that both are true. I think that follow Jesus' example and teachings is a perfectly legitimate path and indeed the right one for me. On the other hand. On Palm Sunday My wife, and I went to a service of the Salvation Army Church with my father and his second wife, who grew up in that faith. The service had no trace of militarism or threat of "fire and brimstone" it stressed, service, faith, love and good deeds. It was very close in my mind to the teachings of Jesus. The service had a heavy family element and was quite intimate as there were only about 40 attendees and about 15 of those were related to the Majors (the pastor and his wife) including their infant grandson who in a small moving ceremony was dedicated to the Church. I gathered that was an analog to the baptism which was performed on me at that age. I am not saying that I have, because I have not. But I have no doubt that if you were to seek it out, there is enough variety in Christian worship, that you could find a group that suits your beliefs and preferences to a tee. Then again since people would be involved and even with the spirit of Jesus as a presence in that group. (see first quote on this post.) People would soon disagree and drift off. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:14 PM (#3334544) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Isn't that supposedly what J was on about in the first place? Live right -and here are some pointers- but don't turn my teachings into some new religion? Maybe not a new religion, certainly a new church. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM (#3334573) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor BTW, Thanks for the clicky whoever did it. Excellent Mud-elfing! |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:44 PM (#3334581) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza Today (Good Friday) I read in church a part of the gospel where Jesus tells Pontius Pilate that he came to lead people to the Truth. Pilate's reply sums up for me all the natural doubts and questions Christianity poses. Pilate replied, "What is Truth?" |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:30 PM (#3334710) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Amos A long time a go, a bunch of scientists -- starting with Albert Einstein -- discovered the shocking truth that the election of absolute external time (defined by Newton) and the notion of an absolute rest state against which all motion could be measured, were alike arbitrary, capricious, and essentially superstitions that had been adopted as a form of comfort. The alternative--that spacetime's constant is only the velocity of light and that motion and even time is relative to reference frames--is much harder to think with if you are accustomed to the earth-born and body-centered experiential frame of reference. But, in a larger sense, it is still "more true" even though less comfortable. Jes' sayin'. A |
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07 Apr 12 - 01:34 PM (#3334999) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Watch out for the King James bible. There is a political aspect to cherry picking in it that defends the idea of compromising all the tenets of religion that were warring at the time. It was written by scribes who couldn't really understand the meaning of what they were writing, being dutifully governed by those clerics with certain agendas. King James used the bible as a political tool. All the Apostles were dead long before they were have reputed to written texts under their names. The question remains: Who would Jesus kill? Who would Jesus bomb? Who would Jesus support in mobilizing these activities? Who would Jesus starve? Would Jesus make a good millionaire or billionaire? Would Jesus subjugate Palestinians, Afghans, Iraqis, Iranians or even North Koreans? Is Jesus Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or even a Scientologist? Maybe Jesus was an atheist. You see the problem with a "meme". |
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07 Apr 12 - 02:47 PM (#3335039) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: gnu Amos... so, what yer sayin is let yer mind wander off? think outside the box? |
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08 Apr 12 - 01:29 AM (#3335243) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor I donno gnu, I think he is saying something like, If even the most basic idea of time can be questioned after 300 years of solid scientific thought, them maybe our beliefs should not be quite so rigid. I'm not positive, I'm just saying... |
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08 Apr 12 - 06:04 AM (#3335287) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Allan C. Pay more attention to the message and less to the messenger. That's been my mantra for quite a while, no matter which religion I may have been studying at any given time. |
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08 Apr 12 - 06:22 AM (#3335293) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Tunesmith Follow Jesus? But NOBODY can be sure what Jesus said! There have been books upon books written telling us that virtually everything did and taught can be found in earlier works/myths. There is also more than a suspicion that "things" were added to Jesus' teaching for various ulterior motives. The story that always bother me is the one where Jesus talks about a land owner who needed men to work in his fields. The landowner goes out in the morning and hires a number of men to work all day and they agree on a wage. Later in the day, the land owner realizes that he will need more men and hire a number. At the end of the day, the land owner pays the men who have worked all day AND the men who have worked only half a day the same amount. When the men who have worked all day complain, the landowner simple tells them that he has paid them the agreed rate and that if he wishes to pay the other men the same wage, for only half the work, that - in effect - is too bad Now, surely that was inserted by some land owning Roman! Who, today, would not feel aggrieved, to find that a fellow worker was being paid twice as much money for doing the same job. A lot of what is attributed to Jesus is very impressive, but I'm afraid the reality is that "Jesus" is just a pastishe of wise sayings. Which is not a bad thing, as long as we leave it there, and forget the "God thing", the walking on water etc. |
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08 Apr 12 - 09:36 AM (#3335347) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,CS "the election of absolute external time (defined by Newton) and the notion of an absolute rest state against which all motion could be measured, were alike arbitrary, capricious, and essentially superstitions that had been adopted as a form of comfort. The alternative--that spacetime's constant is only the velocity of light and that motion" Thanks for the provoking thoughts Amos. Last night in a dream I was speaking with my Grandmother. I said to her: "Isn't it strange, how I can be here speaking with you, and yet you are dead?" She replied smiling: "Yes, I am dead love. But I'm also wise." Sitting back in her chair, she told me: "I control time, through dance." I knew this was of significance. Describing how she in her non-living state mastered her experience of reality. At this point I began to experience sorrow at her loss, and started to cry. She said: "Come along now, lets have a cup of tea." Speaking last night about dance as a universal mystical metaphor for both creation itself and our interaction with creation and also how movement and time are key both to literal dance and to the fundamental building blocks underpinning the physical universe. I'd be curious if you (or anyone else) had anything further to add? |
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08 Apr 12 - 12:35 PM (#3335391) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,keith A Tunesmith, the point of the story is that it is never too late. A late convert will receive the same reward. The story of The Prodigal Son carries the same message and is quite in line with all His teachings. |
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08 Apr 12 - 12:45 PM (#3335392) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Tunesmith, It is also a practical lesson in business. It can be neatly summed up as follows. "A deal is a deal." |
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08 Apr 12 - 01:40 PM (#3335406) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Tunesmith It means what it says!!! Bosses can treat the workers anyway they like. And if the workers don't like it, well, that's just too bad because they are going to have to lump it! And if Jesus thinks that's a fair way to treat workers ( i.e. causing unrest and division) then who can blame the bosses for following his lead. |
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08 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM (#3335416) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Amos CS: A perfect tale, dampened only by that sorry excuse "...in a dream", which is often used as an apology to Newtonian space-time guards. Your grandmother has the perfect right of it, and I applaud her for being bold and graceful enough to break through. I am reminded that even relativity had a long uphill fight before the great minds of physics at the time would accept it, and some, like Poincare, never could quite let go of the notion of a reassuring box of space and time letting all viewpoints measure in common. That adhesion, or appetite for commonality, is one of the trickiest hexes in Pandora's box. A |
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08 Apr 12 - 08:10 PM (#3335521) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Right, Tunesmith. And what bothers me is the stuff about turning the other cheek. What rubbish, Jesus. If ever there was a formula for allowing injustice to continue... |
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08 Apr 12 - 09:50 PM (#3335542) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: frogprince Guest, Tunesmith: I've had extensive experience with a wide selection of conservative, often very literalistic Christians throughout a fairly long life. I've found a lot of them narrow minded, and small minded, in many ways. But I would challange you to find one of them who thinks that the story of the vineyard owner is meant to suggest that that is an appropriate way for a literal employer to treat workers. It's understood, in a word, as Keith A. just said it. Within that there may be nuances. To a strict fundamentalist, "a late convert" might have to mean someone who accepted that "subsitutionary blood sacrifice" late in life. To others it might mean that, to their understanding, if a person spent much of his life absorbed in self, living in thoughtlessness or worse toward others, but toward the end of life experienced a genuine change, and tried to be the best fellow human he could, then God would "pay the wages" due to the kind of person he had become at the last. |
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08 Apr 12 - 10:37 PM (#3335550) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Amos Actually, turning the other cheek often works wonders; but you have to gauge the other participants, and use it constructively. Like any line of dogma, it is not universally applicable. A |
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08 Apr 12 - 11:13 PM (#3335559) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,josepp The stuff put into the mouth of Jesus was a mish-mash of beliefs and tenets of various communities that once existed each with its own agenda. It's all over the place and has no consistency. If you try to "cut to the core" all you get is: Don't hurt people, don't do bad things, respect god, etc. I mean what kind of crap is that for a great teacher to teach? Is anybody going to seriously tell me they didn't know it was wrong to murder people before they encountered the words of Jesus?? I mean, come off it. Great teacher, my ass. He didn't teach anything. It was just filler put there to carry their specific propaganda. Like sugar tell help the medicine go down, except it was more like poison. Even worse, much of this propaganda doesn't mean anything to us today. It was only relevant for that time period. I can't believe people follow this stuff. |
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08 Apr 12 - 11:33 PM (#3335561) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor A deal is a deal. Griping about someone else's deal is just childish. |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:05 AM (#3335582) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. ? Is anybody going to seriously tell me they didn't know it was wrong to murder people before they encountered the words of Jesus?? Obviously not. The 10 Commandments given to Moses centuries earlier. Some things were new. Turning the cheek, loving your enemy, giving more to a thief who steals from you.... |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:08 AM (#3335584) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford confirming my posts. |
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09 Apr 12 - 07:55 AM (#3335649) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw You have a point, josepp. A pity that we read what guys who never knew Jesus had to say. He should have written it down himself. A good example of God not quite being on the ball. |
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09 Apr 12 - 08:13 AM (#3335657) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: frogprince "what bothers me is the stuff about turning the other cheek. What rubbish, Jesus. If ever there was a formula for allowing injustice to continue... " You betcha: if Martin Luther King, or Ghandi, had just grabbed guns and blown away the oppressors they encountered, we would have a much better world now !! And before some takes that at face value and responds to it... |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:02 AM (#3335697) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Steve, turning the other cheek is a way of describing civil disobedience. The myth of Jesus advocates that. What is rubbish is thinking that political or social struggles can be solved by violence. This is one of the problems with the atheist movement as I see it. Many are quick to "support the troops" in the way the Hitchens and his followers did. The U.S. military doesn't belong as a hegemonic force in Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Bahrain, or other bases in the world. The mythology of Jesus is that he practiced non-violent revolution in his time against the Romans. A myth, as Joseph Campbell says, has a teaching role. It's analogous to what is happening today in the U.S. and throughout the world. Whether you believe Jesus existed or didn't has no bearing on the fact that a non-violent world is more civilized then the militarization that is taking place and with it, the support of dictators. Atheists have to wake up to that realization if they want common sense to prevail. Chris Hedges and I disagree on the role of religion, his being a divinity graduate from Harvard, but I agree with him that struggles for justice have to remain non-violent to succeed. Justice and violence don't go together. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:17 AM (#3335702) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Al Christianity is defined by what Christians do. That's the reality of it. Everything else is mental hogwash. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM (#3335710) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Christianity, defined by what so-called Christians do, is ambiguous at best, those calling themselves Christians doing terrible actions in the name of their religion, creating Crusades, wars, bloodshed, witch burning, racially motivated killings, bombing foreign countries and countless other unspeakable acts. This is not mental hogwash but fact. Who is the arbiter about what Christians do? Many Christian actions seem inconsistent with the Beatitudes. The majority of Christians in the US support war, military hegemony, violence, cruelty, racial and economic inequality and support candidates like Romney and Sanctorum who claim they are religiously following orders. None of these so-called Christians are "turning the other cheek" but support an unsupportable "just wars" theory. The notion of Christianity has become mental hogwash. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM (#3335718) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Little Hawk If you think Jesus never existed (a presumption of certainty which I laugh down my sleeve at when I hear it), then do you also think that Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl, Lao-Tse, and Mohammed never existed? And merely upon the fact that we can't historically prove that they did??? (with the one exception of Mohammed) We can't historically prove one hell of a lot of stuff that actually happened in the past. Most of it, in fact. Amost everything that has happened in the past 20,000 years is not historically provable. But I'll tell you this: great religions and great ideas do not arise out of thin air. They arise out of the lives of great individuals who had such a profound effect upon many people in their own time that the effect lingered for centuries or millenia afterward, and was not soon forgotten. Jesus, Buddha, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl, Mohammed, and other such great individuals were the reason that their religions started in the first place. It would not have happened without them. Their lives and their example were what set the entire thing in motion, and what inspired their followers to write down what happened. To imagine, for the sake of your own emotional/intellectual/argumentative needs, that such a man did not even exist, even when confronted with the existence of a great religion based on his life and teachings, is utter foolishness. You are in no wise compelled to adopt his religion, and in no wise compelled to subscribe to his philosophy, but to say to yourself that "he never existed" is merely to state your own circular reasoning based on your own very strong emotional need to believe that he never existed. And that's laughable. What it is, is this: a statement of blind faith on your part. Wishful thinking. You dearly want him to have never existed, therefore you believe it must be so...and the only possible excuse for supporting such an unlikely assertion that your hungry mind can come up is, "Well....we don't have any historical proof that he ever existed." Religions don't arise from the teachings of men who never existed! They arise directly from the teachings and lives of men who did exist, and who had a very big effect on many of those around them. Short of that...short of the real presence of a remarkable teacher or prophet...it simply doesn't happen. Naziism didn't happen without Hitler. Fascism didn't happen without Mussolini. Stalinism didn't happen without Stalin. Maoism didn't happen without Mao. Zoroastrianism didn't happen without Zoroaster. Buddhism didn't happen without Buddha. Freudian psychology didn't happen without Freud. Judaism didn't happen without Moses, King David, Solomon, etc. Napoleon's empire didn't happen without Napoleon. Christianity didn't happen without Jesus. There's always one extraordinary man (or woman) who starts the ball rolling on a religion, a philosophy, or a political movement, then many others keep it rolling from that point on. That's how it happens. One person initiates it. Others follow after. Period. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:50 AM (#3335725) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I don't think so Stringsinger. Just because a section of Christianity goes off at a tangent and develops hardline fundamentalist notions of an inerrant tome expressing the word of God, it doesn't detract from the millions of others who believe in living a Christian lifestyle. All that is needed is to recognise that the term "Christian" can no longer rationally apply to the former, since their views and their actions are completely at odds with what we understand of the message of Jesus and of the gospels. Their brand of Christianity is an Old Testament viewpoint, unaffected by Jesus and the New Testament, both of which, for them, need never have existed. Don T. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:52 AM (#3335727) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Little Hawk He who looks only for bad things in something finds only bad things there, no matter what he's looking at. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:57 AM (#3335728) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Sorry, chaps, but Jesus's advice to turn the other cheek wasn't suggesting civil disobedience (which he may also have done, but not here) or dumb insolence. It was to offer the other cheek for your enemy to clatter as well. And we can't know that had Gandhi et al. chosen an entirely different course their people might not have suffered for as long as they did. That owld hippie Jesus also suggested that no-one need worry about garnering for the morrow, for sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. Irresponsibility rules OK! |
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09 Apr 12 - 11:14 AM (#3335737) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Little Hawk I think the advice to "turn the other cheek" has a lot more to do with a person's maintenance of their own inner state of mind than with cheeks being slapped, Steve. It's not meant literally. That is to say...when met with a hateful or resentful attitude from others, do yourself the favor of nurturing within yourself the opposite consciousness. Do not do the standard reactive thing which is to return hate for hate, resentment for resentment. It will only poison your own consciousness, make you feel lousy, and probably end up hurting others too. Maintain a mind free of hatred and resentment, cultivate love and equanimity in the face of hatred and resentment. Stay positive. If you haven't tried it, you're hardly in a position to evaluate it. And here's the fact: most people haven't tried it. They just do that standard immature reaction of returning hate for hate, resentment for resentment, blow for blow. And how far does it get them? Think about it. The part about "sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" means simply this: Don't waste your energies worrying and obsessing about all kinds of bad stuff that might happen in some imagined future. Deal with the REAL problems of today and the REAL challenges that are in front of you right NOW. Work with what is presently available, don't get mired in dark fantasies about things that may never happen. If a person behaves that way, realistically and in the present, they will usually do a whole lot better than someone who is constantly fretting about what dreadful things might happen tomorrow, next month or next year. They will not, for example, attack Iraq or Iran on the mere stated supposition that Iraq or Iran might someday build a nuclear weapon. If a person is not presently attacking you, then you have no business presently attacking them...and international law agrees on that. |
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09 Apr 12 - 01:12 PM (#3335771) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Little Hawk.. Come on, don't start a real debate! Jesus appeared to be a person. Roman records show the local leaders felt threatened by a bloke of that name and asked the Roman authorities to execute him, which they did. Now.. How much of what is written can be ascribed to him is another thing. Ignoring all the silly folklore borrowed from other cultures about a virgin, stable, conjuring tricks and coming back for a while after dying... There may have been something in his getting followers? Something in going apeshit at the money lenders in a temple? Something in being betrayed by a follower? We don't know. We only know that the story grew in the telling. If a quarter of the stories about Errol Flynn, Michael Jackson, {any '70s rock star} whatever were true, then the tabloids of today would be justified in the bollocks they spew. Different gospels? Different tabloid newspapers? Different internet blogs? Easy to see how the bible came about really. And from that came the blueprint for a religion. So, following Jesus rather than the religion created in his name would seem to make sense to me if I were that way inclined. But I'm not superstitious, so my interest in this thread is in the abstract really. I can take things on the chin and presume them to be true on the basis that someone told me they were. But to go from presumption to belief requires fact, laced with irrefutable evidence. The conjuring tricks and the big bloke with the big beard are absurd in reality terms. If it can't be done, there is a 100% chance is hasn't been done. Raising Lazarus, water into wine, surviving crucifixion, talking to a God and getting answers, healing people without modern methods and no training as a doctor? Teachings of real people do form into movements, but this is a largely fictitious character who many believe to be more than just a bloke with a mission to be nice. John Lennon may be called the second coming in about two thousand years? |
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09 Apr 12 - 01:38 PM (#3335786) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor There is plenty of good historical work being done on the authorship books of the New Testament. A lot of it being done just up I40 from here at the Chapel Hill campus of UNC and at Duke University. What I have read and heard leads me to believe is that Andrew Sullivan's approach is pretty valid. When I was a devout atheist, as several of you seem to be, I still very much respected Jesus the philosopher. It was obvious to me that there was wisdom in in the words, but as some of you I did not see a lot of those words as practical. But they are practical in one sense. He was training evangelists. The story of Peter cutting of the Roman soldier's ear is a perfect example. Jesus, admonished Peter, according to the story, restored the ear and went on to accept his martyrdom. This was the blueprint for the overthrow of the Roman Empire. Or certainly for the overthrow of the regime that worshiped Roman gods. It would be disaster if everyone lived as the "birds in the field" but evangelists do so to this day. They live off the largess of their audience and other supporters. Remember that Jesus was talking to his disciples and those who would follow them and the words become crystal clear. |
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09 Apr 12 - 05:40 PM (#3335941) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,josepp "///If you think Jesus never existed (a presumption of certainty which I laugh down my sleeve at when I hear it), then do you also think that Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, Quetzlcoatl, Lao-Tse, and Mohammed never existed?///" Mohammad did. He was enough of a barbarian and heartless bastard to prove it. The rest? No. Of course they didn't exist. They all have virtually the identical life story. "////We can't historically prove one hell of a lot of stuff that actually happened in the past.///" Kind of damns your whole point, doesn't it? Jesus' advice to turn the other cheek had nothing moral attached to it. The authors of the gospels were united on only one thing: they believed that they were in the End Times and were using Jesus as a mouthpiece. Turn the other cheek simply meant not to get wrapped in such pointless matters because the earth was ending soon so prepare for that instead. Jesus could not have been concerned with helping them live better lives much less the generations to follow because, in his own words, there weren't going to be many more generations--that the Second Coming would happen soon, that many who stood there listening to him would still be around to witness it. And if that wasn't bad enough--he was wrong about that too. "////Roman records show the local leaders felt threatened by a bloke of that name and asked the Roman authorities to execute him, which they did.////" Source, please. |
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09 Apr 12 - 08:01 PM (#3335998) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Jesus's advice to turn the other cheek was the usual call to yield to "authority." And it was written in by people who didn't know Jesus but who had their own authoritarian agenda. Just look at the religion they founded. OK, Mr Hawk. You rape my daughter, eh? Here, rape my other one while you're at it... |
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10 Apr 12 - 04:02 AM (#3336101) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket josepp. I don't have a source. Read the whole of my comment and away you go. I said I take things on the chin and presume them to be true, which is far cry from believing them. Somewhere in my dim and distant past, I will have read or heard on a documentary that there is written judicial report of a bloke who the local authorities turned over to the Roman regional government and asked them to execute him, and that he was a trouble maker. That doesn't need a turn of faith, it just needs an irreligious bloke on the street to agree that there is a decent chance that it happened. Possibly many times, and the amalgamation of these renegades became the phenomenon called Jesus? Why not? In fact it doesn't matter anyway, because for those who Jesus means something, the silly impossible bits are part of the package. So Romans executing trouble makers? Whether they did or not, they certainly had a reputation for it. |
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10 Apr 12 - 04:52 AM (#3336119) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. And it was written in by people who didn't know Jesus but who had their own authoritarian agenda You would have to believe that none of the teaching was His! All that we have from the gospels is consistent with that same message. It is all "written in" or none is. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:28 AM (#3336137) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Well, Keith, I can also believe that those with their authoritarian agenda cherry-picked. Some good stuff left unchanged, other stuff altered to fit. |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:45 AM (#3336168) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza I feel that the minute one starts analysing the tenets of Christianity and trying to prove or disprove this or that, one is getting further and further from the simple concept of faith. Basically, one either does or doesn't have faith and no amount of criticism, ranting, derision etc can shake a firm faith. Conversely, no amount of persuasion, assurance or assertion can engender faith where there is none. It's best if those who believe go on doing so quietly, and those who don't let them do it! |
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10 Apr 12 - 09:18 AM (#3336231) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw It's best if those who believe go on doing so quietly If only they would.... |
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10 Apr 12 - 10:22 AM (#3336251) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket If religion didn't include interfering with normal people, it wouldn't be a religion? |
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10 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM (#3336291) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,josepp When I tried to post some of my beliefs about life and death from a "spiritual" viewpoint some months ago, I was attacked and ridiculed relentlessly until I just had to stop. I wasn't trying to force it on anyone. I just wanted to talk about it, which proved impossible. Which is why I don't discuss it anymore. And yet some of these same people are now saying we shouldn't be attacking others' beliefs. Pardon me if I don't take you seriously. What we shouldn't be doing is discussing or sharing those beliefs in any way, shape or form. I was wrong to do it and the hostility I received proved it. But that also means anyone else doing it is also wrong and therefore deserves to have those beliefs attacked. No more double standards. Just keep your religious and philosophical beliefs to yourself. End of problem. |
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10 Apr 12 - 01:04 PM (#3336316) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Please read the article and discuss how it compares to your own arguments and beliefs on religion. |
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10 Apr 12 - 03:38 PM (#3336405) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw I think it's perfectly fine to attack others' beliefs if those people are attempting in any way to impose those beliefs on others (as distinct from expressing their beliefs). And I especially include in that the imposition of religious instruction on children in schools and elsewhere. That needs attacking big time. |
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10 Apr 12 - 04:03 PM (#3336417) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. "If religion didn't include interfering with normal people, it wouldn't be a religion?" "It's best if those who believe go on doing so quietly If only they would.... " Was it necessary to post that here? Are any Mudcat Christians a bother to you? I do not impose on anyone, but I should be free to express my belief. OK? Also, people who find faith, always say they are happier for it. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:13 PM (#3336454) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,999 You are free to do that, Keith. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:24 PM (#3336463) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger I think that there is no evidence for the pantheon that you suggested for their physical existence. Lets add to your pantheon. Zeus, Jupiter, Juno, Horus, Attis, Dionysus, Mithra, Athena, Asterion (Minotaur),Ariadne (Snake goddess), Theseus (who killed the Minotaur), Baha'u'llah, don't forget Lucifer, Santa Claus, (Sinter Klaus later to become Saint Nicholas),and the latest, the god Zenu who presides over Scientology, then, John Henry, Paul Bunyan, Pecos Bill, and countless others that people have elected to believe in without evidence for their existence. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:28 PM (#3336466) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,999 Well, I don't see too many people praying for Lucifer, and if anyone needs it, he does. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM (#3336467) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger What Steve Shaw doesn't understand about the myth of Jesus is that he did not appeal to "authority" but fought it non-violently. That's the whole point. The Romans are analogous to what we have today with the military industrial complex and the corporatizing that is taking place throughout the world. There is another parallel, Israel. The Jesus in the bible is schizophrenic on one hand calling for the redemption of mankind through love and forgiveness and on the other, punishment for not believing in him. This is the problem with a mythical figure, he gets changed around quite a bit and we don't know historically how many Jesus's there were and whether or not there was one. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:45 PM (#3336470) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Will the real Jesus stand up? Horus Attis Krishna Dionysus Mithra Jesus Born on 25th Dec. X X X X X Virgin Birth X X X X X X Sign-Star in the East X X X Adorned by 3 Kings X X Teacher at age 12 X X X 12 Disciples X X X Traveled with disciples performing miracles X X X X X Known as e.g. The Truth, The Light, God's Shepherd X X X X Betrayed X X Crucified X X Buried for 3 days X X X X X X |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:49 PM (#3336472) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger The x's didn't get aligned in a proper column but you get the idea. Pick your savior |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:52 PM (#3336477) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger What I consider to be a problem is this ambiguous thread. Who is Andrew Sullivan and why should we follow him? The thread is an attempt at proselytizing. |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:39 PM (#3336497) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Do you support faith schools, Keith? |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:55 PM (#3336505) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw What Steve Shaw doesn't understand about the myth of Jesus is that he did not appeal to "authority" but fought it non-violently. He told his followers to render to Caesar what was Caesar's. But nothing belonged to Caesar thereabouts, did it. Of course he pandered to authority, both on earth and, more explicitly, to that of his invisible father in heaven. Down the line, his advocates were able to build an extremely authoritarian and sexist religion based on what he allegedly preached and who he went around with, and it can hardly be said, almost from the outset of Christianity, that non-violence was central to its creed. As Jesus might have said had he existed, and applying it to himself, by their fruits shall ye know them. |
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10 Apr 12 - 10:26 PM (#3336561) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor "What I consider to be a problem is this ambiguous thread. Who is Andrew Sullivan and why should we follow him? The thread is an attempt at proselytizing. " No, Stringsinger, this thread is an attempt to discuss a NewsWeek article by Andrew Sullivan. Please feel free to ignore the thread if that discussion is not your desire. If you do desire to continue to involve yourself please read enough of the the thread and the article to know what it is about. |
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10 Apr 12 - 10:49 PM (#3336564) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Songwronger Here's something that'll make all you God-haters happy. In this 4-minute video, a pentagon rep talks about destroying the God-gene. Wants to use it on Arabs in the middle east. Look at how blithely he talks about this. Of course, the part of the brain that would be affected also allows you to enjoy music, so keep up your bitching about religion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nADFJlAggnY This video is from 2005, by the way. Songwronger |
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11 Apr 12 - 05:25 AM (#3336631) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. Steve, re do I support faith schools. I do some, because they are so very popular with people of other and no faiths. CofE faith schools are open to all, are committed to informing pupils about all religions, and get excellent acedemic results. What is not to support? |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:35 AM (#3336646) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST Er, the force-feeding of religious claptrap to young children? You were just saying a little while ago that you don't impose on anyone but wanted to be free to express your belief - remember? |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:35 AM (#3336647) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST Er, I'm no guest, I'm Steve.... 'ang on a mo... |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:37 AM (#3336650) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Catch 'em young... Onto other matters... Dunno what a God hater is, possibly someone who hates God? Not sure I have seen many of those on mudcat. After all, it would appear that the majority don't believe that sort of nonsense, so what is there to hate? You can't hate something that doesn't exist. Of course, people.. People made God, people believe in God. People question God, people don't believe in God. What would a chaffinch believe? |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:40 AM (#3336651) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Am I in? |
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11 Apr 12 - 07:05 AM (#3336656) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Er, the force-feeding of religious claptrap to young children? The faith schools I support do not do that. They give a rounded education including world religions. You were just saying a little while ago that you don't impose on anyone but wanted to be free to express your belief I still say that. OK? |
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11 Apr 12 - 07:54 AM (#3336665) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Learning about world religions from an objective perspective is for me as important as geography, history and science, if the object of the exercise is to demonstrate how and why people are different, why national and personal perspectives alter both geographically and culturally, and indeed broaden your horizons. Not sure something called a faith school does that Keith? if it is a faith school, what does the faith bit mean? Why can't local education authorities capture what makes the grades good and inject that into policies for all schools and remove the brain washing of children from the curriculum? You can't have it both ways. Either the word faith is an active word or religious belief has bugger all to do with it. A friend of mine who isn't superstitious had to pretend to be a believer in Christian superstition in order to get his kids into the local performing school. No matter I suppose, and I would do the same. Yeah yeah, course I'm a God botherer and I believe in all that stuff. Now educate my children please. I'd lie, same as he did. It doesn't matter because there is no hell they can send you to, and lying to delusion pedlars isn't a crime, it's playing their absurd game with them. But why the flying f.. do we have to? In case beardy and his mates didn't realise, we pay for it out of our taxes. Even private education gets so many tax and charity breaks, tax payers pay more than anxious parents. If they want taxes to pay for their club, put up candidates promising a theocracy, and see how many votes that would get you. I don't like too many laws, but equality legislation is ok by me, if it stops dangerous cults from perpetuating their historically forced respectability. I need a coffee now, sorry for the rant... |
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11 Apr 12 - 08:44 AM (#3336683) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw If you make your children learn under a crucifix (or other) on the wall, or you railroad them to church on feast-days, or you make them bow their heads to pray, or if you tell them that what's in the Bible (or other) is true and that they should allow faith to trump evidence, or if you tell them that they may be punished in an afterlife if they're not good, including leaving the faith, then you are force-feeding them. Now, Keith, kindly provide me with the name of any faith school that doesn't do most or all of those things. Or do you think it's OK if you don't impose your beliefs, as you claim you don't, yet you're quite happy for a proxy to do it for you? |
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11 Apr 12 - 09:03 AM (#3336690) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. From Cof E sites. Do CofE schools indoctrinate children? Of course not. While Church of England schools naturally have a particular concern for enabling children to understand the Christian faith, especially as expressed in the Anglican Church, our schools are committed to nurturing, encouraging and challenging those of all faiths and none. Indoctrination is where only one point of view is represented as true and others are diminished or ignored. In our schools, good RE enables students to learn about Christianity and other faiths as part of their general education and also part of their own spiritual development. Nevertheless, as in all schools, parents have the right to withdraw their children from RE and collective worship. Church of England schools are established primarily for the communities they are located in. They are inclusive and serve equally those who are of the Christian faith, those of other faiths and those with no faith. More on schools. Church schools are recognised for their distinctive Christian ethos and the impact this has on standards and all round education. The proportions of Church schools regarded as 'outstanding' (by Ofsted) is much higher than the national norm and yet the Church schools are fully inclusive. Research published in November 2009 showed that the average grade awarded by OFSTED to secondary-level faith schools for promoting community cohesion was "substantially and significantly" better than the average grade awarded to community schools. Similar differences were found in relation to the grades given for promoting equality of opportunity among students. At primary level, schools with and without a faith foundation received the same average grades for these two areas of school life. Many church schools (both VC and VA, primary and secondary) have a high proportion of Muslim children, a substantial number have over 80 per cent intake from the Muslim community. The CofE is committed to reserving at least 25 per cent of places in new CofE schools for pupils from the local neighbourhood regardless of faith background or none. In practice most new CofE schools reserve less than 50 per cent for Christian applicants, and almost all CofE Academies have 100 per cent neighbourhood admissions. The Church considers it essential that children learn about the major faiths represented in Britain today as well as having a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief. Therefore, all RE syllabuses taught in church schools are multi-faith and require students to learn about at least the six major world faiths. The recent non-statutory Framework for RE reinforces this requirement. Voluntary Controlled schools teach RE according to the local Agreed Syllabus - the same syllabus used by community schools. Voluntary Aided schools sometimes use this local syllabus, but mostly use the syllabus developed by their diocese, which will be based on the commitment above to teaching about a range of faiths. |
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11 Apr 12 - 09:27 AM (#3336695) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket 25% commitment regardless of faith? And the 75%? In practice reserve less than 50% for Christian applicants? Doesn't sound like education regardless of faith to me. Just out of interest, there is no such thing as a Christian child. You can be brought up in a household of Christian adults, but unless and until you make that commitment as an adult, you are not a Christian. I have been baptised, it is no more and no less than a tradition, as indeed I had christenings for my children. It keeps the older generations happy and as babies, they are hardly going to be affected by the experience. Oh, just noticed the bit about the syllabus being developed by the local diocese... A bit like chicken runs being designed by foxes... |
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11 Apr 12 - 10:08 AM (#3336709) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Big Al Whittle In Jesus H. Christ? What did the 'H' stand for? Puzzled of Dorchester |
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11 Apr 12 - 10:39 AM (#3336719) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,keith. None of your objections to faith schools apply to CofE schools. There is a choice. Keeping 50% of places at Cof E schools for children of C of E parents is hardly unreasonable. |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:02 PM (#3336946) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw From Cof E sites. Do CofE schools indoctrinate children? Of course not. In the immortal words of Mandy Rice-Davies... Incidentally, Keith, whilst you might have hoped otherwise, I do recall asking you about faith schools, not just C of E schools. Knowing your form, I just wondered if you had an opinion about Muslim schooling. We can leave the Catholics out of it for a minute... |
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11 Apr 12 - 06:18 PM (#3336951) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw he Church considers it essential that children learn about the major faiths represented in Britain today as well as having a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief. Well there you go. The indoctrination clause. |
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12 Apr 12 - 03:06 AM (#3337076) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. Do CofE schools indoctrinate children? Of course not. While Church of England schools naturally have a particular concern for enabling children to understand the Christian faith, especially as expressed in the Anglican Church, our schools are committed to nurturing, encouraging and challenging those of all faiths and none. Indoctrination is where only one point of view is represented as true and others are diminished or ignored. In our schools, good RE enables students to learn about Christianity and other faiths as part of their general education and also part of their own spiritual development. Would Muslim parents allow their children to be indoctrinated as Christians Steve? None of your objections to faith schools apply to CofE schools. |
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12 Apr 12 - 05:36 AM (#3337124) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw I just quoted one above (even though I left out the first letter T). Giving children "a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief" has nothing to do with education and everything to do with ensuring they join the club. |
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12 Apr 12 - 07:08 AM (#3337148) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket 50% is not reasonable. 0% is reasonable. If the local school with good attainment figures had a clause that your parents had to be stamp collectors, would you think that is a good use of your tax payer's investment? Even if it were only 50%? Religion is an important subject in the abstract, just like history, geography etc. It helps understand where we are and how we ended up noting differences between people rather than similarities. I really do think RE is important, if only so older children can see the damage it does and choose to dismiss it on a personal level, or embrace it after objective reasoning if they choose. No faith school does this. None whatsoever. |
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12 Apr 12 - 07:30 AM (#3337154) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. No faith school does this. None whatsoever. I, and thousands of non-Christian parents, know that you are wrong. Giving children "a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief" has nothing to do with education Yes it has, and in conjunction with a sound grounding in all the other major world religions it is an education that all kids should have to equip them to live in a multicultural country whose constitution and history are inextricably bound up in Judeo-Christian philosophy. You are simply displaying prejudice. We have the objective evidence of government inspections to prove that these schools provide a full and excellent education. What evidence have you got to prop up your prejudice? |
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12 Apr 12 - 08:00 AM (#3337164) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw From your big quote: The Church considers it essential that children learn about the major faiths represented in Britain today as well as having a sound grounding in Christian faith and belief. There are two clear elements in that statement. The first, with which I fully agree (and imagine that Ian does as well) is to do with learning about the major faiths. No education would be complete without that. The second, though, is about "giving them a sound grounding..." As learning about faiths was covered by the first element, the second clearly means something different - indoctrination with Christianity. The prayers, the services, the tradition, the myths, the works. You quoted it, Keith, not me. As for prejudice, I was educated in two Catholic schools from five to eighteen and I taught in two faith secondary schools, one Catholic and one C of E, for over 20 years. I've been around a bit, then. |
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12 Apr 12 - 08:09 AM (#3337168) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford I did quote it, but I do not accept your interpretation of the statement. It is saying that they give a grounding in Christianity, but not just Christianity. I also quoted this. "Many church schools (both VC and VA, primary and secondary) have a high proportion of Muslim children, a substantial number have over 80 per cent intake from the Muslim community." Would that happen if Christian indoctrination was going on? That is objective evidence, as is the inspection reports, as are the league table results. |
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12 Apr 12 - 09:20 AM (#3337195) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw I honestly don't see what league table results have to do with it. That's like saying fascist Italy was a good place because the trains ran on time. |
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12 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM (#3337258) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford The league tables exist to provide parents with information needed to assess and compare schools. They are evidence that these schools are acedemically successful, as well as "Research published in November 2009 showed that the average grade awarded by OFSTED to secondary-level faith schools for promoting community cohesion was "substantially and significantly" better than the average grade awarded to community schools. Similar differences were found in relation to the grades given for promoting equality of opportunity among students. At primary level, schools with and without a faith foundation received the same average grades for these two areas of school life." |
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12 Apr 12 - 11:53 AM (#3337264) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford I have nothing else to add really. You have posted nothing to support your view, so I have not changed my view. Do take the 100 post for a last word. keith. |
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12 Apr 12 - 11:57 AM (#3337266) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,999 I shall. Thank you. |
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12 Apr 12 - 01:45 PM (#3337328) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Faith schools are more academically successful because their entry policies operate using different criteria to other schools. For not very good reasons, they tend to attract the children of pushy and often (as you know) dishonest parents. In any case, academic success as measured by testing does not in any way nullify the point that their pupils are being force-fed faith and belief. I don't really know why you're conflating the two things. Well I do really. |
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12 Apr 12 - 03:14 PM (#3337374) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. OK Steve, I retract all reference to their excellent academic achievement, and will solely make reference to the fact that they are anti indoctrination, to the complete absence of any evidence of anyone ever being indoctrinated (including you Steve who were massively exposed to them but are clearly not religious at all and even anti religious), and to their excellent record of promoting community adhesion and equality of opportunity as reported by government inspectors. |
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12 Apr 12 - 04:50 PM (#3337423) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw I assure you that I was religious-by-force for many years and that it took me a long time to see the light. Like most childhood victims of religion's deadly grasp, I had to find out how to shake off the fear of eternal damnation, family disapproval and even a degree of ostracism from people I used to get on well with. You couldn't really expect government inspectors to disapprove openly of signs of indoctrination, as their brief is to ensure that the laws of daily worship are adhered to by schools. Evidence of indoctrination abounds: it's there in every harvest festival service, carol service, Christingle and any other service or ritual that children are railroaded into. And every time they are made by their school or their parents to bow their heads in prayer. Those prayers which express a totally-unjustified certainty about the existence of God. Our Father who art in heaven, not Our Father who may be in heaven but we only say that without evidence and the chance of its being true being vanishingly remote. Any lie you tell children under the guise of eternal truth is indoctrination. |
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13 Apr 12 - 04:43 AM (#3337625) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford I have heard others describe your experience of the effect of a Catholic upbringing. Apart from the threat of damnation (only Catholic I think), everyone of our generation had the same religious experience at school. I was at a CofE Secondary school, but all schools did collective worship. Not one of my schoolmates took up church going. |
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13 Apr 12 - 03:01 PM (#3337861) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw And what's enforced collective worship if it isn't indoctrination? |
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13 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM (#3337864) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Every kid in this country was put through it, and it went on for over a century. During that century the number of practicing Christians went down every year, so not much indoctrination happened did it?! |
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13 Apr 12 - 03:11 PM (#3337866) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. Nothing works so effectively to counter the effect of that collective worship as the head teacher pronouncing angrily that some people had their eyes open during the prayers. Penny |
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14 Apr 12 - 02:40 AM (#3338059) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Right Penny. If we all think back to our actual experience of it, we will know that no kid ever came out of one of those sniggering school assemblies indoctrinated into anything. |
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14 Apr 12 - 06:07 AM (#3338107) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Some of them went on to become priests in charge of kids. |
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14 Apr 12 - 01:56 PM (#3338274) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger I have a pretty solid grounding in Christianty and have found it wanting. The evangelical aspects of Christianity are the problem. This aspect is insulting to those who have an aversion to dogma. |
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14 Apr 12 - 01:59 PM (#3338276) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger Practicing Christians saw through the hypocrisy and reacted to the indoctrination. |
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14 Apr 12 - 04:28 PM (#3338347) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Some of them went on to become priests in charge of kids. Do you know of any. I bet that there is not one who became a convinced Christian as a result of a CofE school. |
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14 Apr 12 - 04:45 PM (#3338352) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza In our (not church) Grammar School we had morning assembly every day, sang a hymn and had a prayer intoned by the Headmaster. At the local church (which I attended) not ONE other pupil was ever seen there, except my close friend Susan. But we all found the hymns particularly uplifting. Who could forget "See here hath been dawning another blue day" or "He who would valiant be, gainst all disaster..."? Somehow they set the tone for the day ahead. Almost anything presented to a young mind could be labelled indoctrination. But I'm grateful for this 'indoctrination'. I loved every minute and have drawn great solace and inspiration from it. Children with no moral or religious guidance are cast rudderless into the world. |
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14 Apr 12 - 05:26 PM (#3338373) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Bill D It does not even require a "Christian" school for pressure & indoctrination. When I was in 7th grade, my **science** teacher, who was otherwise an excellent, reasonable man and educator, was also a devoted Christian and in charge of the annual Christmas pageant. Our science class was TOLD we were to be the 'chorus' reciting the words of scripture about shepherds and angels and stars in the East...we memorized it for many class periods. I think I could still do 90% of it. At that time I was still nominally a Methodist, and just shrugged, though I was bored. It didn't even dawn on me to question either the theology or his right to inflict it. I know that in some schools in various states, similar things are still done.... along with public prayers. Dissenters are usually too intimidated to complain. Pressure & indoctrination are what they are... even if low-key and disguised as other things. |
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14 Apr 12 - 06:31 PM (#3338396) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Agreed, Bill. Soft faces, hard cases, hit you with their deadly smile... Children with no moral or religious guidance are cast rudderless into the world. Nice attempt to conflate the two things. Yep, that's the Christian way! I'll plump for moral any day. I know loads of rudderless people who manage to find their own decent, moral way through life without, or in spite of, "religious guidance." Conversely, I know of, or hear about, lots of people who hide under the veneer of "religious guidance" to think horrible thoughts and do horrible things. One of 'em has just dropped out of the Republican race. Another is still in it. A few others run Israel. |
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15 Apr 12 - 02:38 AM (#3338511) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford. I bet that there is not one who became a convinced Christian as a result of a CofE school. Do I win my bet? CofE faith schools not indoctrinating. |
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16 Apr 12 - 03:02 PM (#3339158) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Small government Jesus? |
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16 Apr 12 - 04:01 PM (#3339185) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth Just an observation in passing: There are over 150 different denominations that characterize themselves as being "Christian." All these different denominations came as a result of disagreements over matters of doctrine that led people to split off from one church and form another. A schism, which would sometimes, after the dust had settled, lead to yet another schism in the more recently formed church. Over 150. Yet, most people on this thread (and in general) keep using the words "Christian" and "Christianity" as if they refer to some kind of monolith with one cohesive body of beliefs. Don Firth |
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16 Apr 12 - 04:07 PM (#3339188) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Let us gather shoes together! |
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16 Apr 12 - 04:52 PM (#3339206) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. Only 150? Penny |
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16 Apr 12 - 06:01 PM (#3339239) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth You have a point, Penny. Roughly 150 major divisions. But if you get into schisms within just the Lutheran Church alone, they proliferated like weeds. And if you get into divisions such as the Moravian Baptist and Kenyan Baptist churches and the various splits in the Congregationnal Church, they just spatter all over the place. Within a century after the death of Jesus, there were some 83 "bishops," each one claiming to be a descendant of one of the original twelve Apostles, and they were "excomunicating" each other right, left, and center because of disagreements over what Jesus was all about. Not exactly the monolith that some folks seem to assume it is. And styles of worship runs the gammet from the formal and dignified Catholic, Anglican, and Episcopalian services to "holy rollers," snake handlers, and "speaking in tongues." Don Firth |
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16 Apr 12 - 06:29 PM (#3339252) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Bill D "I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off." -- Emo Phillips (he uses Lutheran, Episcopalian at various times) |
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16 Apr 12 - 06:41 PM (#3339256) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth Yup! That's about it. (Good one, Bill!) Don Firth |
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17 Apr 12 - 04:34 AM (#3339423) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford He told his followers to render to Caesar what was Caesar's. But nothing belonged to Caesar thereabouts, did it. It was a reply to his enemies, not followers. He said it after pointing out Ceasar's head on a coin. it can hardly be said, almost from the outset of Christianity, that non-violence was central to its creed. At the outset, as again today, Christians were the victims of violence. Inevitably, in 2000 years of history, mistakes were made. And...? |
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17 Apr 12 - 06:14 AM (#3339445) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. I have somewhere a photocopy of a document produced by a small church whihc used to meet in our school. They had meetings intended to be public in the evening, and left a display of literature out ready which I saw when I went in for some work purpose. I say small - there was one other congregation of the denomination somewhere in the East Midlands. On the back of this document was a sort of cladistics diagram charting the ancestry of this congregation via all its splits over the millenia. Once past the obvious ones with the Orthodox, and the RCs and the Anglicans, it got more and more weird - one schism was over what the women should use to cover their heads (this particular ecclesia favoured hats of a sort which suggested there was a specialist milliner of boring felt hats which could not be found in the generality of shops). And there are many layers in the render unto Caesar statement below the superficial not-challenging-Caesar's-right-to-tax one. For instance, there should have been no Roman coins in the Temple, there should have been no images of supposed divinities such as the Emperor in the Temple. There would have been, in living memory, events which challenged that, with negative outcomes. There is still, in church services, the acknowledgment that all comes from God and is, in essence, still His, and of His own do we offer Him. That would have been the message to good Jews, and there would have been good Jews on both sides of the argument about Jesus right to teach on the subject - leaving aside the Roman spies from the Antonia, who probably weren't up to subtleties in a foreign language. One wonders whether the Roman redactors of the gospels got it, either. The surface meaning would have been very useful for Constantine. One also wonders what Jesus would have said in the absence of a Roman coin. Penny |
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17 Apr 12 - 06:45 AM (#3339452) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza People of different denominations can nonetheless exist in happy parallel to eachother. I'm a Christian but do not personally respond spiritually to the more ebullient 'happy clappy' type of Church, but I've attended one with my frail old friend for many years as unofficial 'carer'. I'm a Protestant C of E but I've attended literally hundreds of Catholic Masses, and gained something profound from their way of worship. I've also been involved with a Methodist church and Scottish Episcopalian one in my time. I suppose I'm quite ecumenical! My husband, who isn't a Christian at all but a Muslim, says there are many many paths leading to the same God. I tend to agree. If only people could adopt that attitude and 'live and let live'. |
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17 Apr 12 - 12:07 PM (#3339555) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor "it can hardly be said, almost from the outset of Christianity, that non-violence was central to its creed." Until Constantine converted the Roman Empire, to my knowledge, the most violent thing a Christian did was chip a lion's tooth if the lion bit down too hard on a crucifix. That was the first 400 years of the faith. Are you saying that it was a very long outset? |
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17 Apr 12 - 03:37 PM (#3339651) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Yes, not my moment of greatest clarity there, I admit. :-( |
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18 Apr 12 - 02:27 AM (#3339869) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Joe Offer Eliza, I think I agree with your Muslim husband. What the Muslim Sufi mystic poets say, is the same thing the Christian and Jewish mystics say - and it doesn't have anything to do with condemnation of others, or authority, or control. It's all about love, respect, and tolerance - and a sense of wonder. -Joe- |
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18 Apr 12 - 03:11 AM (#3339874) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Yes. |
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18 Apr 12 - 08:07 AM (#3339947) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza Thank you Joe. But there is a rather fierce old lady (the widow of an Army chaplain) who voiced some reservations about my husband attending Harvest Festival at our church. The rest of the congregation were thrilled to see him, but she afterwards 'had a word' to the effect that Jesus and only Jesus was her Saviour, and all other religions were false ones. There was only one Path, via Christ, therefore a non-Christian had no business in a Christian Church. I didn't say much, and didn't tell my husband. The Vicar when consulted just smiled and said not to take any notice, but he seemed scared to categorically state that a Muslim was welcome to come. I somehow feel that Jesus Himself wouldn't have minded. Luckily (!) my husband finds the church freezing cold and doesn't appear there for services, but he helps tidy the churchyard and erects marquees for fundraising etc. I was very sad and discouraged, but she was the only one with this attitude. |
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18 Apr 12 - 08:11 AM (#3339950) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Army chaplains are all prepared to support people of other faiths . It is part of the job. She should know better. |
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18 Apr 12 - 08:38 AM (#3339957) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza I think she was sincere, but just a bit 'fundamentalist'. I'm always wary of folk who think they and only they have the key to heaven! I smile sometimes, there will be a lot of surprises 'up there' if/when we get there! |
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18 Apr 12 - 06:21 PM (#3340113) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I smile sometimes, there will be a lot of surprises 'up there' if/when we get there!"" Yes Eliza, I sometimes have this mental image of the ""only my group know the true intent of God"" Brigade, lined up for a thirty second appraisal along the lines of:- "I gave you every chance to make your own Heaven on Earth, and you blew it! You ARE the weakest link,....GOODBYE!" Don T. |
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18 Apr 12 - 06:52 PM (#3340125) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor Atwoods on her novel about theocracy. Could theocracy happen her? |
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18 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM (#3340152) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth A new arrival in Heaven (much to his surprise, actually, but that's another story) was being given the usual newcomer's tour of Heaven by the Angel Fred. In the course of the tour, they passed a beautiful mansion (as reported, God's Heaven has many mansions—Catholics, Protestants of various flavors, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Rastafarians, and, yes, agnostics and atheists—MANY mansions), but unlike the others he'd just seen, this one had a high wall around it. The new arrival tapped Fred on the right wing and asked, "Why does that mansion have a high wall around it?" "Oh, THAT one," the Angel Fred responded, "Those are the [fill in denomination of your choice]. They think they're the only ones here, and if they knew there were others here besides them, as far as they're concerned, it wouldn't be heaven." Don Firth |
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18 Apr 12 - 08:23 PM (#3340169) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Arkie Eliza, if one reads the Gospels with an open mind they should take note of number of times Jesus was criticized for his association with folk deemed by the pious to be unworthy. That suggests to me that Jesus was looking into people's hearts. He was far more judgmental about the pious folk who seemed to lack the caring heart. I like Don's story. |
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19 Apr 12 - 04:49 AM (#3340302) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Eliza So do I Arkie, a very funny but apposite joke! It's the heart that matters. There's a lot of hypocrisy around, just as there was in Jesus' time. It's so maddening! If only people were tolerant and accepting of different religions and practices, but they so want to ram their own ways down people's throats. I like to think Jesus would've smiled at my Muslim husband and shown him to a seat in the church. Certainly the Bishop of Norwich blessed him in Norwich Cathedral, kneeling at the altar. That was the right way, I think. |
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28 Apr 12 - 08:27 AM (#3344382) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: bobad Study finds that analytical thinking reduces religious belief |
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28 Apr 12 - 02:16 PM (#3344515) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Stringsinger You are all "cherry picking" because you are interpreting the role of Jesus and the bible the way you see it, not actually how it was because there's no one living today who really knows what happened then if it ever did. The Apostles must have dead by the time their supposed scriptural accounts were written. When "so-called" atheists are reactive, they miss the point. Jesus was a myth, but some myths have value. Jesus didn't appeal to authority otherwise his myth would not have prevailed. It may have been co-opted but "turning the other cheek" was an appeal to non-violence as a solution. You can "cherry pick" all you like but that was the message intended in the Beatitudes. Ghandi may have been more of a Christian than most Christians. That said, there is no mention of Jesus in the "Dead Sea Scrolls". The myth of Jesus has inspired non-violent resistance throughout the world, for example, in Islam and Buddhism. Non-violent resistance is a moral struggle, a kind of moral warfare and the myth of Jesus was a major influence. "Reactive atheism" does nothing to enlighten, it just highlights the individual's personal reaction to religion. When the various usages and roles that religion plays in the lives of people are understood, then informed decisions can be made about it. Some use it for authoritarian means, others for nurturing and compassionate means. I prefer not to call upon it at all but religion has motivated some people to do helpful things for society, such as the role of Quakers in recent times. Jesus might be a folkloric figure whose mythological presence served as a means of teaching how to live depending of course on how you "cherry pick" it. |
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28 Apr 12 - 03:36 PM (#3344529) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Ghandi may have been more of a Christian than most Christians Well, his sex life would have made Michael Jackson's eyes water. And his mouth, come to think of it. Distance lends enchantment to the view, eh? |
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29 Apr 12 - 12:28 AM (#3344649) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Hookey Wole hey guys... My family is experiencing a weekend where all you old cherished gods and holy books are a complete and total anachronistic irrelevance... 2000 years and more of wasted pointless human sacrifice and suffering.. No gods exist.. don't just take my word for it no gods exist.. your special needs magic books are at best a compendium of not so bad translated folk poetry and reasonably entertaining fairy tale stories.. YES I know you true believers will dismiss this rant.. .. and that's the distance between mass insanity and grim reality......... |
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29 Apr 12 - 12:54 AM (#3344654) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Jack the Sailor I don't think that I "cherry pick." I use what is relevant to me. Jesus' words, the Sermon on the Mount. the parables etc are words to live by. |
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29 Apr 12 - 12:58 AM (#3344655) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth You can't prove that, Hookey, any more than theists can prove that God--or gods--exist. One of those ineffable things that people waste an incredible amount of breath and ink on to no avail whatsoever. Take the myths. Learn what you can from them. That's what they're for. Don Firth |
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29 Apr 12 - 01:16 AM (#3344658) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Hookey Wole Don, with respect, I am an an agnostic humanist I think I live my life good and well 'as if' I were a Christian.. In some respects I think I take 'belief' far more seriously than a whole lot of humongous unconditional believers..... |
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29 Apr 12 - 01:34 AM (#3344659) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Hookey Wole and, if i'm shoved to think about it. I'm seriously not anti 'belief' regarding the unproven and uncertain unexplainable so far known universe / existance/ reality.... but I am most definitely anti mad nasty hostile fundamentalist crazy nutter god botherers........... |
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29 Apr 12 - 01:58 AM (#3344661) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don Firth As am I. I have met many self=proclaimed "Christians" that are anuthing BUT examples of what Christ (allegedly) taught. They're give Christians a bad name. Don Firth |
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29 Apr 12 - 05:21 AM (#3344689) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. I don't really understand why cherry picking is regarded as wrong. Presented with your average bowl of cherries, some starling-pecked, some over-ripe, some frankly mouldy, anyone who doesn't pick out only the good ripe ones at the point of readiness for eating is an idiot. Penny |
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29 Apr 12 - 07:06 AM (#3344710) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Jesus might be a folkloric figure whose mythological presence served as a means of teaching how to live depending of course on how you "cherry pick" it."" Or, of course, he might have been a real person who simply pissed off the authorities, because he was advancing commonsense views at odds with what both the Jewish and Roman leaders were promoting, and paid the ultimate price. Neither you (for all your air of certainty) nor I know which! Don T. |
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29 Apr 12 - 09:08 AM (#3344743) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket A bit worried that Keith A of Hertford dismissed my concerns so quickly. Perhaps this might help? Faith schools doing what I thought they did Like I said, they need stopping. Children need education, not indoctrination and coercion. Child abuse is child abuse, regardless of rigged league tables. |
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29 Apr 12 - 09:50 AM (#3344755) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Ian, I did not dismiss your concerns. I share them. My original post on the subject- "Steve, re do I support faith schools. I do some, because they are so very popular with people of other and no faiths. CofE faith schools are open to all, are committed to informing pupils about all religions, and get excellent acedemic results. What is not to support?" |
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29 Apr 12 - 11:40 AM (#3344784) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford The Apostles must have dead by the time their supposed scriptural accounts were written. Mark's Gospel was probably first and written in 60s or 70s AD. Matthew and Luke used his text and added their own material and interpretation. Paul's Epistles were written even earlier. |
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29 Apr 12 - 02:41 PM (#3344864) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Steve, re do I support faith schools. I do some, because they are so very popular with people of other and no faiths. Hitler was popular. The Tories are popular. Thatcher won three elections, so she's popular. The Pope runs a billion Catholics, so he's popular. God almost certainly doesn't exist, but he's popular. Marie Le Pen just got 25% of the French vote, so she's popular. Simon Cowell is a multi-millionaire because he's popular. Ant and Dec are popular. Hirondelle wine was popular. Popularity trumps goodness, erudition and justice, eh, Keith? |
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30 Apr 12 - 03:28 AM (#3345078) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford You would deny people the schools that they want and choose because of your prejudice. You know what's best for them. Right Steve? |
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30 Apr 12 - 05:12 AM (#3345105) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Well, Keith, the people who have least effective choice of school are the poorest who live in inner cities. They can't choose fee-paying schools, they can't choose faith schools with anything like the facility of richer/God-fearing/pretend God-fearing/downright pushy people, and now it seems they can't easily choose free schools either: in most cases, the numbers of pupils on free school meals admitted to free schools are way below the averages for all the other schools in the same areas. Good buzz-word, choice, but do note which particular wing of politicians is inclined to use it most. |
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30 Apr 12 - 05:55 AM (#3345117) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford All true, but a different issue. CofE faith schools have a proven record of success, and non Christian parents compete for places becuse they provide what the parents want. You would ban them because of your narrow minded prejudice. How illiberal. |
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30 Apr 12 - 08:22 AM (#3345163) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Must admit Keith, I'd also get rid of them. Although I'm not sure narrow mindedness or prejudice would form part of my rationale. It can't be prejudice because the facts and figures are there for you to form an opinion. It can't be narrow mindedness because that is one of the problems getting rid of them would begin to solve... Equality is an interesting term and I use The Equality Act when assessing other public sector operations. It states that everybody can have their own beliefs, views, whatever. But when carrying out your employment duties, you cannot let your views influence your work or its impact on others. Teachers are bound by this so the many examples of applying a narrow minded doctrine when teaching, judging gay lifestyle, sexual equality and other religions by your own particular cult is, amongst other things, illegal. But there again, I remain bemused by how successive governments put legislation in place then give a hundred and one byes to cults. Possibly because they sit in the Upper House, possibly because superstition is on the up not down so they are scared of votes? I am also concerned that we need law and legislation to bring about common sense, as I deplore big government, but there you go. The success of faith schools is based on discipline and parental support. If you remove the imaginary friend, you can still achieve this. As an apprentice, I was told that a certain large machine, when it got too hot, had to be opened to cool down. This was a large job, taking over an hour to get all the flameproof flange bolts out. I was told that there was a prayer mat under the machine, and I had to get that out, kneel on it and bow three times, other wise the machine would not work still when I bolted it back up. The only times it was still not working were, by coincidence, when I had't played silly buggers with a prayer mat (large heavy duty paper bag.) By the same reckoning......... |
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30 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM (#3345180) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Well, I would, in my Utopia, prevent any school from teaching children that God (or gods) is true and that we should worship him and ask him for things. No child would ever be taken to any church service, chant prayers or made to sit under a crucifix. My sole reason for that is that I think it's wrong that children are taught that myth is true. Schools should be about education, and that isn't education. I don't mind children being taught myths as long as it is clear that what they are being told is myth, and I think children should certainly be made to compare world religions and study their impact, past and present, on humanity. If you think that's prejudice, then I'm more than happy to be called prejudiced. As for choice, if you permit schools to select pupils on the basis of pushy parents, ability to move house, wealth, religion, feigned religion or anything else, you are giving those parents the choice they demand, but simultaneously you are impoverishing the schools which these motivated people are eschewing. I don't think it's right that a child should be given an advantage simply because his parents can do those things, just like I don't think it's right that the unfortunate kids of poorer or feckless parents should be put at even greater disadvantage by this blind application of market forces. |
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30 Apr 12 - 11:24 AM (#3345244) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Desert Dancer If there's anyone left in the conversation who's still interested in "how" instead of "whether" re: Christianity, you might be interested in video of a conversation between Andrew Sullivan and Ross Douthat (NY Times columnist, religious conservative, and author of a recent book: "Bad Religion", presenting his argument that a loss of Christianity as a core set of values is what's wrong with the U.S.): Sullivan and Douthat debate Bad Religion. I haven't watched the video, but I found this NYT review of Douthat's book interesting: review by Randall Ballmer. "Randall Balmer, an Episcopal priest and a professor of American religious history at Barnard College, is the author of a dozen books, including "Thy Kingdom Come" and "God in the White House."" ~ Becky in Tucson |
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30 Apr 12 - 08:07 PM (#3345464) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""When I was a kid, I prayed and prayed to God for a bicycle. Later I realised he doesn't work that way, so I stole one and prayed for him to forgive me."" Quote from a favourite comedian. But it does kind of point up the way some religious people see their faith and exploit it. Don T. |
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01 May 12 - 02:47 AM (#3345524) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford CofE faith schools. We know they do not indoctrinate, otherwise they would not be acceptable to atheists never mind Muslims. We know they give an excellent education, because the inspectors tell us and because of the competition for places. Parents like them. Children like them. That is why I think they should be allowed. Steve and Ian, please remind us why you want them banned. Is it just an irrational narrow minded prejudice? |
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01 May 12 - 03:54 AM (#3345531) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Yes Keith it is. Hence they have no place in a modern society. (See earlier post) A bloke in the pub reckons all "queers puffs and rag heads" should be castrated / deported whatever. If we gave him what he allowed.... He is entitled to his view, but society expects that politicians do not pander to every view of every potential voter. We see Bishops advising their flock that the government is wrong here, misguided there... No wonder politicians pander to old men in absurd costumes rather than real people. As I said above, it isn't the doctrine and imaginary friend that works in some faith schools, it is disciple and parental support. You can get that without being reminded of the bigoted fairy at the bottom of the garden. I got curious earlier so looked at a few attainment tables. It isn't quite the case that faith schools do better than rational ones, Keith. it just isn't.. |
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01 May 12 - 04:19 AM (#3345538) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Thu, 3 Dec 2009 Faith schools dominate a new league table of England's best primary schools. Almost two-thirds of the 268 schools which achieved "perfect" SATs results this summer were Anglican, Roman Catholic or Jewish schools. Their prominence comes despite the fact that nationally they account for only one-third of the total number of schools. The children at the 166 faith schools which were awarded "perfect" status attained at least the appropriate level for their age group in English, Maths and Science. A 2008 survey showed that the majority of the population - including those who do not see themselves as Christian - agree that parents should be able to choose a state-run school for their child based on their own religious, moral or philosophical considerations. Two-thirds of parents (with children under 18) hold this opinion, consistent with the spirit of plurality in education which is protected by the European Convention on Human Rights. A 2009 Guardian/ICM poll of 1,000 adults showed that "60% thought children benefited from a faith-based education, while 69% of those with school-age children supported a religious ethos at school". |
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01 May 12 - 05:17 AM (#3345558) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw CofE faith schools. We know they do not indoctrinate Do they have lessons in which the existence of God is assumed? Do they make children say prayers or sing hymns? Do they tell children that the Bible is the truth? Do they organise harvest festivals and carol services which children attend? Do they have links with or visits from local vicars, etc.? If the answer to any or all those questions is yes, then they are guilty of indoctrination. Of telling children that myth is truth. |
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01 May 12 - 05:32 AM (#3345567) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Almost two-thirds of the 268 schools which achieved "perfect" SATs results this summer were Anglican, Roman Catholic or Jewish schools."" Nice for Christians and Jews (though I'll bet the Jews are in the minority here). Tends to exclude Muslims and Hindus, not to mention all the other variations, including non religious. Nothing very divisive there then, eh? Don T. |
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01 May 12 - 06:08 AM (#3345580) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. I may have mentioned before that special needs (usually for behaviour reasons) children who started off at a local RC school on a London overspill estate tended to arrive at ours after exclusion. Because of our well-deserved reputation for provision for special needs? Maybe. We continue to have good reports for added value, but not the sort of results other schools with fewer than a third special needs children. You need to look at input as well as output. Penny |
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01 May 12 - 06:25 AM (#3345587) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Don, I do not understand why it is divisive that some schools get better results than others. |
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01 May 12 - 06:29 AM (#3345589) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford they are guilty of indoctrination. Ever met someone who became a Christian as a result of attending CofE schools? Ever even heard of anyone? Me neither. |
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01 May 12 - 09:05 AM (#3345642) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw No, but sure as hell get their Christianity confirmed. |
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01 May 12 - 09:17 AM (#3345647) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford It did not have that effect on you. So they do not indoctrinate, or even confirm in every case. So, why would you ban these excellent schools that parents and children of all faiths and no faith want? |
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01 May 12 - 06:14 PM (#3345864) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Don, I do not understand why it is divisive that some schools get better results than others."" It depends on what proportion of their pupils are the high achievers of the affluent, mainly white, comfortably off parents who will fight scheme, move house or lie to get a place. Back street kids with special needs, Asians with a language problem both Hindu and Muslim? How good are their chances to get a place in your perfect SAT super schools. Not great I'd say. And another point! S.A.Ts are the very last measure I would noise abroad as the prime indicator of school quality. They are much more often an indicator of how far a school will go in cheating to improve its league position. A much safer indicator is an assessment of ability by year 7 teachers, who are in a position to state with accuracy just how far most kids are from the SAT level they bring with them. My son could right a book on that. Don T. |
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01 May 12 - 06:16 PM (#3345865) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw So could I. |
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02 May 12 - 02:45 AM (#3345993) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Don, we also have the corroborating evidence of the inspectors. The CofE schools do not need to cheat. They are all oversubscribed anyway. |
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02 May 12 - 03:45 AM (#3346000) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Eiither it is a coincidence that they all have faith doctrine, or the faith bit is important to the attainment. If the faith bit is important, this needs exploring. The logical conclusion is that God makes you clever? Perhaps they all have pitched roofs? All have head teachers who drive Volvos? Either faith is an element, in which case why? Or it is a coincidence. The coincidence bit could be the one actually. If they have the reputation, parents will want their kids there. The parents who want their kids there are the ones who urge their kids to do well, and so it perpetuates. The trick is not to accept that God looks after his own, but to get all schools to a standard of attainment that is appropriate and for for purpose. A bit like when the last government introduced choose & book for hospital operations. The dozy buggers thought people would like the idea of travelling far for a better service, when all they wanted was their local service to be as good.... |
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02 May 12 - 03:54 AM (#3346004) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Penny S. The only school I know of with a reputation for coaching was not CofE. They had excellent results in Y6. They also had a distinct physical difference from our children. When schools turned up for interschool sports, their children looked as if they were a year older. Taller, more well-built, and faster. (They used to coach their swimming team in lesson time - I saw them one strike day at the pool.) They were in the more expensive part of the town, with parents of the type Don describes. They had more children getting to the grammar school and the girls' grammar school. (Gender distinction quirk the result of history, which the boys' school will not disown.) BUT, feedback from said grammar school showed that our children were in the top of their classes, and their children were not. Any school distinguished by differences in catchment is likely to show the same characteristics, and CofE schools are often selected in the same way as this school is. Whether they then coach I know not, or if the work displayed on the walls shows the same spookily similar handwriting and content. Schools should not be compared without distinguishing the different sources of the children they serve. Differing outcomes may not be due to differences in teacher quality, or teaching styles, or faith. children don't arrive in Reception classes identically. Penny |
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02 May 12 - 04:15 AM (#3346006) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford coincidence that they all have faith doctrine, They do not offer doctrine. They just try to provide a Christian ethos. That is why they are acceptable and popular with atheists and even Muslims. |
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02 May 12 - 04:34 AM (#3346013) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford There are four thousand six hundred CofE faith schools. "Coincidence" is the most pathetic, straw clutching explanation for their success. |
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02 May 12 - 11:18 AM (#3346114) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket In which case it is the CofE bit. Sorry Keith, you can't have it all ways. It is a coincidence by the way that it is CofE. It isn't clutching at straws at all. Success breeds success. The increased discipline and push for attainment bred a reputation and parents who care for their children want them there for that reason. if parents support their children, they do better than if they are latch key kids. Hence the figures are so good. (Generally speaking that is. Private education also does good as the parents encourage the children and the children are brought up knowing that school is important.) Like I said, coincidence when it comes to imaginary friends. Understandable when you look at the need to succeed via parents and the upbringing of many of the children themselves. I applaud that bit, I really do. I just don't think it is because of faith. God doesn't make you clever. Knuckling down and learning does. |
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03 May 12 - 02:38 AM (#3346347) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford God doesn't make you clever. Knuckling down and learning does. Of course. That was never my assertion. God helps those who help themselves. I believe it is the ethos of the school that makes the difference. A schools has to be good first, before people start flocking to it. There is no coincidence. That really is a pathetic explanation. And remind us again why your dogma requires these much loved and successful schools to be banned. |
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03 May 12 - 01:17 PM (#3346517) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Nobody wants to ban a school Keith, or if they do, I am sure they have an issue with life in general. Likewise, I am not sure what my dogma is. I have a dog, but I expect you don't want a frivolous reply? My point is that faith schools would carry on working as good schools with good attainment without the brainwashing of kids. I hear all the stories that they are not religious schools, just like I know there is normally collective worship and the link I gave earlier on this thread to a Catholic school asking older children to sign an anti gay marriage petition. I wouldn't ban a school, I would always advocate religion being no more than a subject taught in the abstract same as history and geography. Religion explains a lot regarding where we are, how and why historical circumstances arose and some of the issues facing the world today. Renaming a school and reminding staff of their responsibilities under The Equality Act is not banning it. But to have a faith school is no different to having a history or geography school. I fail to see the relevance of the religion aspect as useful, and contend that God doesn't give good results. Discipline, parental aspirations and positive engagement with children delivers the results. So there is no need for faith schools in this day and age. Just the need to capture the actual positive aspects of some schools and translate that into other schools wherever possible. You only have faith schools because cynical politicians feel that alone could be a vote cruncher in marginal seats. Religion causes enough conflict without perpetuating it.... |
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04 May 12 - 02:51 AM (#3346708) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Ian 29 Apr 12 - 09:08 AM "Like I said, they need stopping. Children need education, not indoctrination and coercion. Child abuse is child abuse, regardless of rigged league tables." |
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04 May 12 - 02:55 AM (#3346709) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford My point is that faith schools would carry on working as good schools with good attainment without the brainwashing of kids You are still assuming it is a coincidence that faith schools are so successful. Remove the Christian ethos and you have just another school. |
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04 May 12 - 04:23 AM (#3346724) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket Another school with good attainment. Or the Christian ethos gives a better comprehensive education? I would refute that so strongly, I'd give myself a mischief... |
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04 May 12 - 04:59 AM (#3346729) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford You "refute that so strongly", by dismissing all the evidence and invoking a massive, extraordinary coincidence to explain the thoroughly documented success of these schools. Fine, but I think you are missing something. |
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04 May 12 - 06:25 AM (#3346744) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket I'm not missing anything. I cannot see any evidence that making children fear and love an abstraction gives better eduction attainment figures. Discipline and parental support do that. If you took the imaginary friend out of it, these schools could and would still have good league tables and all the other things people want. But without risking scarring the children. In the meantime, my lads went to a sink school. Both are degree educated professionals and the youngest is researching his PhD whilst teaching at a university himself. Teachers who want to teach, parents who are active role models.. That's that make a good school. The faith bit is irrelevant. |
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04 May 12 - 06:40 AM (#3346746) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford The faith bit is irrelevant. It is just a huge and bizarre coincidence. Some people will believe anything, however irrational and improbable! |
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04 May 12 - 08:31 AM (#3346772) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Like God, Keith. Or the Christian ethos gives a better comprehensive education? I would refute that so strongly Same here. In fact, it's self-evident. Just think of all that extra time in which the kids would receiving real education instead of real anti-education proselytising. |
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04 May 12 - 08:38 AM (#3346775) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Coincidence seems to be your invisible friend, Ian and Steve. The CofE faith schools are very successful. Even if there is no God, that remains a fact. People want them. Children succeed in them. But you want to ban them just because they offend your philosophy. |
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04 May 12 - 11:28 AM (#3346838) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Steve Shaw Pornography is pretty successful too. |
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04 May 12 - 12:42 PM (#3346860) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket You know, the thing is; I don't have a philosophy to offend. (Ok, I have a published thesis which is philosophy I suppose, but as it is in a branch of physics, its only relevance is that I didn't go to God school either and can't complain at my outcome.) People DON'T want faith schools, they want schools that successfully educate their children, and many faith based schools have that reputation. But again, I contend that this is due to discipline and parental support rather than fairies at the bottom of the garden. Remove the imaginary friend and you would still have good schools. |
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05 May 12 - 03:05 AM (#3347057) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford People do want faith schools. I posted the survey results. It is the faith element that makes them different, but you believe it just coincidence that they are also better schools. Thousands of identical coincidences? That is a triumph of irrational belief over reason. A school has to be good before people rush to get their kids in. It is also an irrational belief that it happens the other way round. |
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05 May 12 - 03:31 AM (#3347063) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie By heck. Delusionism is getting a bit deep here! Parents want good education for their kids. If enough responsible parents who take an interest in education send their kids to a school it will become a better performer. The faith bit tends to indicate a school is interested in more than just crowd control and somewhere for kids to be each day. Faith schools don't do well because of faith, they do well because parents who don't give a flying f don't have kids there. To say it is something to do with God is laughable. The aim should be to improve all schools, not allow repressed Christians to take their aggression out on innocent children. There is no such thing as a Christian child, just a child with Christian parents. |
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05 May 12 - 04:33 AM (#3347069) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford To say it is something to do with God is laughable. But no-one is saying that. I have specifically said it is not that. As I said yesterday, "The CofE faith schools are very successful. Even if there is no God, that remains a fact." Faith schools don't do well because of faith, they do well because parents who don't give a flying f don't have kids there. Not true. For most of the pupils it is just their local school. But, because they perform so well, they become sought after. Like Ian's atheist friend who lied that he believed in order to get the benefit of a faith school for his kids. Ian admitted he would do the same. The scools are, for some reason, better schools. Identify the difference and apply it elsewhere by all means, but do not believe that your imaginary friend Coincidence can create good things out of nothing when there is a more logical explanation. |
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05 May 12 - 05:39 AM (#3347081) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Musket And then some. How can you be lying by saying you believe in God when you don't? It doesn't matter either way, as God is an abstraction. Lying about something that is nonsense in order to get your kids educated is not a problem. Especially when in a sane world, you would not need to. I would hazard a guess that a large number of parents don't buy into Jesus either, but would feel they have have the school think they do, as the faith schools are attracting the more encouraged children, making the sink schools sink further... I reckon Keith, that we are in agreement that they are doing well, but seem to be disagreeing about the reason. Problem is, I can't fathom what you think the reason is? |
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05 May 12 - 08:38 AM (#3347117) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford I think that the Christian ethos of these schools is particularly conducive to good learning, living and loving. Problem is, I can't fathom what you think the reason is? Oh yes. Coincidence. |
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05 May 12 - 08:48 AM (#3347121) Subject: RE: BS: Follow Jesus, not religion Andrew Sullivan From: Keith A of Hertford Unfortunately for your friend Ian, his children's school might put the idea to them that using lies and deceit to obtain things that you are not entitled to, is morally repugnant. |
