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06 Apr 12 - 10:55 AM (#3334497) Subject: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS Who here enjoys writing Fantasy fiction ? Or even better likes to dip their pen into the ambiguous world of Magical Realism ? Just curious really as to how you go about it? Do you follow a particular process when writing fantasy? Are there any authors you have learned from. And so on. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM (#3334552) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor I don't actually write it, but if I did it would be with the same type of rules and limits that Larry Niven imposes on himself in his "Magic Goes Away" series. I find that the exploration of the limits of the ideas in Speculative Fiction and Fantasy are what makes the genres interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:21 PM (#3334553) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Bert It is extremely difficult to write good fantasy fiction. Lewis Carroll only got it right about half the time, William Morris and Tolkien never did get it right. Harry potter is great. Being a songwriter I don't write many stories and only a couple of my songs touch upon fantasy; 'Plastic Flowers Seeds' and 'Bathing Angel'. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:29 PM (#3334560) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Amos Ray Bradbury promulgated a variant of magical realism which was sometimes transcendent, in a purely AMerican 20th century voice. I don't know why Bert says Tolkein never got it right, though. Heinlein invoked both magtical realism and science fiction in a lovely blend. In the far literary end of the spectrum Borges has always fascinated me as a voice from beyond the little window. I suppoe, too, you could argue that Plato started it with his tale of shadows on a cave wall. Anyway, I have written some that I suppose might fall into that camp, and them as is curious can find a free sample on the book's website. A |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:36 PM (#3334569) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor "Tolkien never did get it right." Yeah, those millions of copies sold and those hyper successful movie adaptations are proof of that. ;-) Are you sure you didn't mean Ralph Bakshi? |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:36 PM (#3334570) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Bert ...why Bert says Tolkein never got it right... I never found his work believable, just some contrived pseudo medieval world, so what! Peter Rabbit was a lot more believable than Hobbits. I'll take a look at your link Amos. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:49 PM (#3334585) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor Bert, I am sure it is just a matter of word choice but you are amusing me to a great degree. Just for the record.. In which Carrol inventions do you believe? The talking mouse? the Jabberwok perhaps? or maybe my personal favorite the enigmatic Cheshire Cat, Σ:-) Σ: ) Σ ) ) |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:53 PM (#3334590) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS "I never found his work believable," So is the refrain of many lovers of fiction who find that their ability to suspend their disbelief snaps at a point at which millions of others are able to sustain it. I read fiction on the belief that it's ALL make believe nonsense, just some make-believe nonsense is more internally consistent - and thus 'believable' - than others. I include well composed fiction of the fantasy genre in that camp. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:55 PM (#3334592) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS PS thanks Amos - will follow up link. |
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06 Apr 12 - 12:59 PM (#3334595) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Bert Jack, most of Carroll's work is great, It was just with Sylvie and Bruno that I think he missed the mark. I should read them again as my tastes have changed over the years. His 'map representing the sea' in 'Hunting of the Snark' was absolute genius. Both that and the Cheshire Cat also show what a good mathematician he was. |
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06 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM (#3334606) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor Bert I think you and I are alike in these matters. I put a premium on the novel and the inventive nature of a story. I also like my fiction to explore the current state of knowledge. Larry Niven, learned about dwarf stars and Pluto and wrote about what would happen if a man went there. I will suspend disbelief for just about any concept as long as the author follows his own rules. But I have almost no patience for sloppy writing in this regard. |
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06 Apr 12 - 01:50 PM (#3334616) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS So rather than just discussing the pros and cons of different authors, who on Mudcat actually *writes* fantasy fiction themselves? And if you do, how do you go about it? |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:17 PM (#3334631) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor Hmmmm, Do you write it? Please tell us how you go about it. I do write some Science Fiction for me as it is for Niven*, the process would be the same. Have a thought or an idea or discover a new (to me) fact. Think about the consequences of that in terms of how I understand the world. Set some limitations, construct characters and a narrative storyline to illustrate those thoughts. Niven thought, what if "magic" were a renewable resource? No not magic itself, some property of the earth we will call "manna" Well that could explain why there are no "magical" creatures such as unicorns or dragons or even Greek & Norse Gods. They would need manna present in the ground to survive. If Atlantis were even partly supported by magic, then if the manna was depleted and the spell broken then it would sink. For our protagonist, let us have a warrior, a former soldier who was there at the sinking, who killed the priests who sustained the spell and blames himself for the death of a continent. How can this character redeem himself and find peace? That is how Niven did it. That is more or less how I do it. I am not claiming to be that good or that imaginative. *I have read books and articles by Niven in which he explained his processes. |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:27 PM (#3334633) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS "Do you write it? Please tell us how you go about it." I've written smatterings of fantasy on and off for around the last ten years, but mainly off. I posed the question as I don't really have any techniques or structure. I just write stuff. Maybe a paragraph off the top of my head or something from a dream, and then it forms into something and fragments of ideas emerge as I write, and while I'm away from the writing those ideas begin to crystalise into forms, and then I come back to it and more happens, until there's a story. I'm not happy without internal consistency though, and I need to weave the whole together so that there are no random bits of waffle which wander onanistically into no-where (because I hate random purposeless wafflings that go no-where - unless they are truly brilliant pieces of writing of course - which most of them aren't!) |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:44 PM (#3334643) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Amos THe process is essentially one of articulating a vision. What you envision is wildly subjective. How you go about writing it? One way is to conceive of a tale, or a plurality of tales that will capture the vision, and then create stages for thoser tales, like story-boards. You can use index cards. Then, the hard part, actually writing each one, shuffling the sequence, staying true to the characters, seeing the details. The even harder part, rewriting, cutting out half your words, regenerating material to meet some better idea, rewriting again, rinse and repeat. A |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:45 PM (#3334644) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor "I hate random purposeless wafflings that go no-where - unless they are truly brilliant pieces of writing of course " I pretty much agree with that. A lot of people love Ray Bradbury. I don't. His writing while brilliant and I though would not call it wafflings, does not have the structure that I crave. |
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06 Apr 12 - 03:02 PM (#3334653) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS "His writing while brilliant and I though would not call it wafflings, does not have the structure that I crave." I haven't read any Bradbury, but I simply cannot abide what I consider to be marginially more sophisticated versions of what we called at school "And then. And then. And then" writing. |
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06 Apr 12 - 04:42 PM (#3334698) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Don Firth I'm afraid I can't agree about Tolkien. I consider him to be the absolute master of the genre. The whole Lord of the Rings trilogy is very well written and self-consistent, depicting a sort of "pre-history," before certain humanoid species (hobbits, elves, and dwarves as a distinct and separate race) passed into oblivion, leaving only man to populate the world that came later. Tolkien kind of spoiled me for other fantasy, which, for the most part, seems like a pale imitation, nowhere near as well thought out, well-constructed, and well written. I've been an avid reader of science fiction ever since I discovered the "Buck Rogers" and "Flash Gordon" comic strips as a rug-rat, and a few years later was given a large stack of pulp science fiction magazines like "Astounding," "Amazing," "Planet Stories," and other great stuff by an uncle who was in the merchant marine at the time and read a lot on the off-watch—much to the horror of my mother! That was late at night, under the blankets with flashlight stuff! I was very much into the hard-science fiction stuff. I knew Jerry Pournelle when he lived in Seattle (we drank at the same pub and spent many hours cussing and discussing all kinds of stuff), but this was a few years before I knew he was even interested in writing. When he came back to Seattle on a book tour (Footfall), I saw him again and my wife and I wound up having dinner with him, Larry Niven, Mildred Downey Broxon, and Frank Herbert. I've given a whack at writing a couple of science fiction novels, but so far, bogged around chapter four. Maybe someday. . . . Anyway, I resisted the whole idea of fantasy until a highly respected friend insisted that I read at least The Hobbit. That was kind of fun, so I went on to the trilogy and was completely enthralled. I've tried other fantasy stuff (e.g. the Thomas Covenant series and a couple of others) and none of it measures up to Tolkien's. I had fear and trepidation when I heard that the trilogy was coming out as a series of movies, but Peter Jackson did an absolutely brilliant job. I have the "Platinum Edition" set of all three movies on DVD, complete with extra features. FRODO LIVES!! Don Firth |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:56 PM (#3334719) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,Shimrod In my opinion the greatest Fantasy writer of all time is Jack Vance (Who? I hear you say). Vance is an American author who has been writing since the 1940s. Some of his fiction is marketed as SF and some as Fantasy (he's also written some Mysteries - which I haven't read). I tend to see nearly all of his ouevre as Fantasy because if you read the SF using 'SF protocols' (of the Niven type) it doesn't always work. Nevertheless, it works on its own terms because Vance appears to be able to create utterly compelling and convincing alternate realities. A lot of this seems to be related to his unique and (I find) addictive writing style and imagery. What should you read? Well, all of it, of course! Start with: 'The Dragon Masters' 'The Last Castle' 'Emphyrio' 'The Dying Earth' books: 'The Dying Earth', 'The Eyes of the Overworld', 'Cugel's Saga' The 'Lyonesse' trilogy Most of these are available on Kindle at very reasonable prices. Another American SF author, Walter Jon Williams, has written an extraordinary and highly original fantasy novel called 'Metropolitan'. The setting is a planet-spanning city which is sealed off from the rest of the Universe. Beneath the accreted layers of civilisations, which cover the planet, there lurks a form of geomantic, magic energy called 'Plasm'. Aiah, the heroine of the novel, works for the 'Plasm Authority' and stumbles across a previously unknown source of Plasm. Instead of declaring this source to her employers she uses it to form an alliance with a dangerous revolutionary called Constantine. Complications ensue, of course. There is a sequel called 'City on Fire'. A third volume has been promised for some years now but hasn't appeared yet. The rest of Williams's oeuvre is SF - and is also highly recommended. |
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06 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM (#3334737) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Bert I guess it is very subjective. It depends how it grabs you at the time. I just started reading the free sample of Amos' book and I think that I am going to have to buy it. Can you get it as an ebook Amos? I also loved the movie "Willow". Very similar in concept to The Hobbits, I can't say why one clicks and the other doesn't. Just me I suppose. I love good fantasy so I'll look out for some of the other authors mentioned above. |
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06 Apr 12 - 10:16 PM (#3334794) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: michaelr There is another fantasy author named Williams: Tad Williams. He's as good as they come, particularly his Otherland trilogy. (All his trilogies consist of four volumes.) |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:31 PM (#3334805) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: katlaughing I'm surprised no one has mentioned Marion Zimmer Bradley and her Darkover series. Some of the best I've ever read. Also, Charles de Lint and Spider Robinson (whose wife, Jeanne, co-wrote with him and, alas, died from cancer two years ago & his dau. has just been diagnosed with it, too. His website has a passionate blog post about it all.)I highly recommend de Lint's CD Old Blue Truck, too, he'd be a good Mudcatter! One of the novels I've written has a touch of esoteric magic in it. It's fourth down on my list to add to and edit. It grew out of a short story I wrote years ago. I do any fancy planning, etc....the idea comes, I start writing and the characters, etc. take shape. I learned a LOT about writing fantasy fiction right here on Mudcat in our story threads! What fun! |
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07 Apr 12 - 08:01 AM (#3334880) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS As for writers I'm currently working my way through Robert Jordan's (shortly to be posthumously completed) fourteen volume 'Wheel of Time' sequence. I got the first eight volumes for 50p each from a charity shop. "Lucky me!" thought I, presuming in my innocence that I must have nabbed the entire set for a mere £4! Since then I learned of course that there are (or will be) a further six volumes to acquire. Still, gladly I'm enjoying it! |
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07 Apr 12 - 08:14 AM (#3334884) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Rapparee How to: First you have to read. Not just fantasy, but everything you can get your hands on and ESPECIALLY non-fiction as this helps you achieve consistency. Second, read The Masters. Heinlein, Tolkien, and the others mentioned here. Analyze them and their techniques. Read the best and learn from them. Third, find YOUR vision. A helluva a lot of what passes for "fantasy" are simply knock-offs of "The Quest" motif done by everyone from whoever wrote about the San' Grail to Tolkien to whatever is current today. Try to find something different. Fourth, well, this is the hard part. You have to actually sit at a computer, a typewriter, or before a bunch of paper with a pen and actually write it down. And rewrite it, and rewrite and rewrite it...ad nauseam. Fifth, find someone to publist it. There are many books on how to do this. Sixth, be sure your skin is thick enough to let the inevitable criticisms roll off: "...this is just another copy of the Niven/Pratchett/Tolkien collaberation of 1927..." or "This books sucks ditch water because the author is a twit and Not One Of Us." Seventh, roll around in the Big Buck$ you earn like $crooge McDuck does...right. |
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07 Apr 12 - 01:42 PM (#3335009) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: VirginiaTam CS When we are at Pigs Ear Folk Ale, have a little natter with Sue Rule. Shaihen Heritage |
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07 Apr 12 - 02:18 PM (#3335019) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,Hookey Wole I've no idea... I don't read this stuff.. Even though an old school friend has made a lucrative international career for himself as a moderately well known name in fantasy novel fiction; and my middle aged younger sister is active in some kind of online "Buffy" fan slash fiction cult. Why I'm posting is to alert you all to a very appropriate movie I chanced to watch on TV last night.. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1161418/ "Gentlemen Broncos" [2009] "A teenager attends a fantasy writers' convention where he discovers his idea has been stolen by an established novelist." Another of those 'love it or hate it' oddball films that failed dismally at the US box office, but will probably gain momentum as a future 'cult classic' ??? At the moment Amazon are virtually giving the DVD away [£2.99] |
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07 Apr 12 - 02:26 PM (#3335025) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,CS Heh, Hookey, an old friend of mine -who also happens to be a teacher of creative writing- has that exact naughty habit. Each time I see her her notebook goes away stuffed full of my bleddy ideas. Each time I see her she also shamelessly advises me: "Well, there's no copyright on ideas!" Mind you, it's my own fault if I fail to set the things down myself I guess.. Tam, good idea. |
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07 Apr 12 - 02:45 PM (#3335037) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,Hookey Wole Here's the trailer.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdpFpfIBkXc |
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07 Apr 12 - 02:47 PM (#3335038) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,hookey Wole .. and .. old school vintage sci fi fans should at least enjoy the opening title sequence homage to cheap tacky paperback cover illustrations.. http://www.artofthetitle.com/2010/08/23/gentlemen-broncos/ |
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07 Apr 12 - 03:20 PM (#3335057) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: GUEST,Hookey Wole At risk of being tedious.. Dr. Ronald Chevalier; in store reading, extract from latest blockbuster sci fi novel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=BQnwLiIKT5c |
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08 Apr 12 - 01:45 AM (#3335245) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Jack the Sailor The Mudcat Novel of Magical Realism. The Premise. He was startled to discover that the words he read on the Mudcat could enable him to actually see an image the fantasy character inspired by poster before him. He soon discovered that he was seeing way too much of Spaw. Other members offered less carnal possibilities. Perhaps the online personalities would coalesce and gather to go on some sort of mythical, talisman inspired quest? |
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13 Apr 16 - 02:56 PM (#3785148) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: keberoxu A word of affection for Lewis Carroll's Sylvie and Bruno. No, it is not a success, you got that part right. The book is a fascinating fiasco. There is entirely too much stuff in it, first of all, whole bits of dialogue or argument that bring little to bear upon the narrative or the characters. It is a funny sort of catch-all for its author, it seems, he just stuffs things right in there....I don't know why....so that he will know where to find them next time he fancies them? On such paragraphs/pages of writing, you feel like hollering at the author to get back on track. So if you insist on an efficient, successful, replicable product, give Sylvie and Bruno a miss. For the rest of us, there are some characters and goings-on in this book that will pull you back time and again, in spite of the utterly unfinished, experimental quality of the book. And no reflection on Sylvie and Bruno is complete without mention of James Joyce, who applied himself to thorough study of Carroll's technique of shifting from one level of consciousness to another, and shaped this technique and made it his own. |
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13 Apr 16 - 09:04 PM (#3785177) Subject: RE: BS: Writing Fantasy Fiction From: Donuel I am bad at dialogue but good at expanding cutting edge science discoveries and combining it with other off the shelf technology to such a degree as to fascinate or horrify. You know, like Jules used to do. Jack the ghost in the internet is really in your own limbic system receptors. |