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30 Apr 12 - 09:49 AM (#3345191) Subject: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards There was no one like 'im, 'Orse or Foot Nor any o' the Guns I knew; An' because it was so, why, o' course 'e went an' died, Which is just what the best men do - Rudyard Kipling, "Follow me 'ome" But what about traditional songs? What's a good ballad in the form of a lament for a fallen comrade-in-arms? |
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30 Apr 12 - 10:19 AM (#3345203) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Traditionally, I go for The Poacher's Fate / Gallant Poacher family. Otherwise I'm especially like Bellamy's setting of Henry Lawson's Glass on the Bar. |
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30 Apr 12 - 10:22 AM (#3345204) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray A nice brace of which can be found HERE. |
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30 Apr 12 - 10:39 AM (#3345222) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Owen Woodson Keepers and Poachers Ye subjects of England, I pray you draw near, To a few simple words which you shortly shall hear. Concerning some poachers and keepers also Who fought in these covers some winters ago. Now, when we go in, boys, good luck to us all. Our guns they do rattle and the pheasants do fall, But in less than ten minutes twelve keepers we spied, Begone you bold poachers, how dare you come nigh. Says the one to the other, "Now, what shall we do?" Says the one to the other, "We all will stand true." 'Twas then they decided to all fight as one And to fight these bold keepers till the battle was won. There was one William Taylor would not run away Until five of those keepers all on him did lay. Young Taylor was taken along with the rest, Young Taylor was taken though he fought the best. There's judges and juries all on him do swear, If you will prove witness, your sweet life we will spear. "Oh no," said young Taylor, "That won't do at all; For since you have got me, I will die for them all." There was none like young Taylor; no never was yet, There was none like young Taylor; no never was yet. There was none like young Taylor you keepers all know That fought in those covers some winters ago. |
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30 Apr 12 - 10:44 AM (#3345224) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Jack Campin James Connolly Joe Hill |
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30 Apr 12 - 10:58 AM (#3345235) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,mg Ich hatte einem comaraden Rambling boy Irish rover Big John Building up and tearing England down MacAlpine's Fusiliers |
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30 Apr 12 - 11:59 AM (#3345260) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards I like the poacher angle - and Bill Brown would be perfect. Unfortunately (for current purposes) I've done it already. Surprised nobody's mentioned MacCrimmon, although I'm not sure I'm up to it. |
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30 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM (#3345329) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Ged Fox Derwentwater Derwentwater's Farewell Bonny Earl of Moray Flowers of the Forest Parcy Reed |
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30 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM (#3345339) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Steve Gardham The Young Sailor cut down is the obvious archetype. |
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30 Apr 12 - 04:19 PM (#3345399) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards The Young Sailor died of the clap, which isn't quite what I'm after. Also it's more of a deathbed lament by the person dying, not a lament by the survivor. Bonny Earl of Moray and Parcy Reed are a lot closer, although they're narratives rather than laments. Fascinating stuff - keep them coming. |
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30 Apr 12 - 04:35 PM (#3345405) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray MacPherson's Rant? |
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30 Apr 12 - 05:00 PM (#3345411) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,mg oh..I like deathbed laments...written we think by the departing one... MacPherson's Rant Ballad de Louis Reille (I just read somewhere that Reil is a French name for Reilly after the groups mixed in Quebec post-potato famine). Eomon na Croic Well..lots of Irish ones..Kevin Barry, Kelly the boy from Killane Most sad..here's to the dead already and here's to the next one to die. mg |
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30 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM (#3345421) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Snuffy Tipperary so far away |
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30 Apr 12 - 05:47 PM (#3345424) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Some great songs. To reiterate, what I'm really interested in are traditional songs about someone who's been killed, in the voice of a surviving friend: like the 'poacher's fate' songs, or MacCrimmon's Lament. The Border Widow's Lament isn't far off, although if possible I'd prefer songs sung by a man about a friend. |
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01 May 12 - 06:25 AM (#3345588) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Rog Peek Jimmy Newman? Rog |
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01 May 12 - 06:42 AM (#3345598) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,henryp Traditional songs; Bold Nelson's Praise Rufford Park Poachers Will ye go to Flanders? Contemporary songs include; No Man's Land/Willie McBride - Eric Bogle The Band Played Waltzing Matilda - Eric Bogle St Aubin sur Mer - Keith Marsden |
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01 May 12 - 10:34 AM (#3345677) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Rufford Park Poachers Naah, they only get transported. (The keeper's dead, but they're not lamenting him.) Two men, one alive, one dead - that's what I want. (Jimmy Newman is a new one on me.) |
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01 May 12 - 12:47 PM (#3345728) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: mally Green Fields of France. Mally |
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01 May 12 - 02:11 PM (#3345761) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Young Buchan There's a valley in Spain called Jarama; It's a place that we know very well. Where we fought in the struggle for freedom, And most of our brave comrades fell. We are proud of the British battalion, And the fight that we all of us made, Where we fought on the side of our comrades In the Fifteenth International Brigade. We shall never forget our companions. Their memory never shall fade. In the midst of the struggles around us, We remember our glorious dead. There's a cold wind tonight o'er Jarama, And it blows from the East to the West. It is blowing the dust of my comrades That have given their bravest and best. There's a valley in Spain called Jarama; It stands by the Ebro's broad tide. Where we fought in the struggle for freedom, And most of our brave comrades died. |
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01 May 12 - 02:39 PM (#3345771) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards I'm intrigued now. The setup of Kipling's "Follow me 'ome" (which was the poem that set me off on this train of thought" is something like this: 1. He was my friend 2. We faced danger together 3. He's dead, I'm alive It seems like a very simple and obvious template, but how many songs have got all those elements? "Ich hatt' ein kamaraden" is closest, but a bit literary. "Bill Brown"/"The poacher's fate"/etc tick all the boxes, and "MacCrimmon" is close, but all the others people have suggested are laments for heroes, laments for large numbers of people or laments by the dead person (before death). If we extend it to a relatively unknown person dying and a widow left behind there are a few more - the Border Widow's Lament, the Death of Parker. But friends don't seem to grieve for friends in traditional songs, with the sole exception of poachers. |
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01 May 12 - 04:24 PM (#3345812) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Snuffy Absent rather than dead comrades, but could be read that way at a push: The Outside Track by Henry Lawson There were ten of us there on the moonlit quay, And one on the forward hatch. No straighter mate to his mates than he Ever said, "Old Len's a match! 'Twill be long, old man, ere our glasses clink, "Twill be long, ere we grip your hand," So we dragged him ashore for a final drink And the whole wide world looked grand Chorus: For they marry and go, As the world rolls back, They marry, and vanish and die, But their spirits shall live on the outside track As long as the years go by. The port lights glowed in the morning mist As it rolled on the waters green, And over the railing we grasped his fist As the dark tide came between. We cheered the captain, we cheered the crew And our mate, times out of mind. We cheered the land he was going to And the land he had left behind. Chorus We roared "Lang Syne" in a last farewell But my heart felt out of joint. I well remember the hush that fell. As the steamer passed the point. We drifted home through the public bars, We were ten times less by one Who sailed out under the morning stars And under the rising sun. Chorus Then one by one, and two by two They've sailed from the wharf since then. I've said goodbye to the last I knew, The last of the careless men. And I can't but think that the times we had Were the best times after all, As I turn aside with my lonely glass And drink to the bar-room wall. Chorus So I'll try my luck For a check Outback And a last farewell to the bush For my heart's away on the Outside Track At the back of the steerage push. |
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01 May 12 - 04:38 PM (#3345814) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Bert The Golden Vanity |
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01 May 12 - 07:17 PM (#3345888) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Ged Fox Tom Bowling - old, albeit not traditional - I have a vague memory that that was Dibdin's lament for his brother, sublimated (if that's the right word)into something more general. |
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02 May 12 - 03:07 AM (#3345996) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards That's a good one, and new to me. According to the Yorkshire Garland there was a Tom Bowling (and he was from Yorkshire!). |
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02 May 12 - 03:11 AM (#3345997) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Keith A of Hertford There are the broken token songs, like Plains of Waterloo, which purport to be about a killed comrade until the last verse. |
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02 May 12 - 06:43 AM (#3346036) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Good angle. It's interesting, though, that the 'lament' part of those songs is in inverted commas, as it were - "And as I passed by him where he lay a-bleeding I barely had time for to bid him adieu ...was what I said to her, but of course it was all made up Come to think of it, given the "I overheard X and Y talking" framing device that you sometimes see, some of them are in two sets of inverted commas - I heard someone say "I know I said 'I saw Willie Smith dying and I was very sad," but actually I am Willie Smith, and here is the ring that was broken between us". Quite tricksy really - you'd think that anything that convoluted would have grown out of earlier, simpler songs that just said I saw Willie Smith dying and I'm very sad But there don't seem to be many of those, except where Willie's a poacher. |
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02 May 12 - 07:04 AM (#3346039) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Jack Campin John Henry? Or Che Guevara, in Hasta Siempre? |
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02 May 12 - 08:33 AM (#3346068) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Phil cookieless Another I'd forgotten - Victor Jara's "El alma llena de banderas" Aquí hermano, aquí sobre la tierra, el alma se nos llena de banderas que avanzan... Chokes me up every time. Hard to translate, though. |
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02 May 12 - 09:54 AM (#3346090) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards For those who read Spanish... El alma llena de banderas Ahí, debajo de la tierra, no estas dormido, hermano, compañero. Tu corazón oye brotar la primavera que, como tú, soplando irán los vientos. Ahí enterrado cara al sol, la nueva tierra cubre tu semilla, la raíz profunda se hundirá y nacerá la flor del nuevo día. A tus pies heridos llegarán, las manos del humilde, llegarán sembrando. Tu muerte muchas vidas traerá, y hacia donde tu ibas, marcharán, cantando. Allí donde se oculta el criminal tu nombre brinda al rico muchos nombres. El que quemó tus alas al volar no apagará el fuego de los pobres. Aquí hermano, aquí sobre la tierra, el alma se nos llena de banderas que avanzan, contra el miedo, avanzan, contra el miedo, venceremos! Venceremos! The title can be read two ways - "Soul filled with flags" or "The soul fills with flags" (the latter is used in the song). (The phrase "Lotta continua" is similar - it means both "continuous struggle" and "[the] struggle continues".) I don't know who, if anyone, Jara had in mind when he wrote it. He was killed less than three years later. |
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02 May 12 - 12:02 PM (#3346128) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Charley Noble Two poems by Cicely Fox Smith come to mind, both of which have been recently set to music: Messmates All, adapted for singing by Mike Kennedy Farewell to ANZAC: click here for lyrics and MP3! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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02 May 12 - 12:07 PM (#3346133) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: sciencegeek in traditional songs we have more laments for lost lovers - Bonnie Light Horseman, etc. or fallen heros - Brave Wolfe, Death of Nelson, or lost ships & men. more songs were done of the bad conditions & poor usage and maybe the good fortune of surviving all that, though Stan Hugill sang about poor Andrew ??? ( brain fart here) - a sailer murdered by his captain. The laments for dead comrades seem to be mostly poems that have been set to music. Henry Lawson, Kipling, C Fox Smith ( Messmates All, Farewell to ANZAC). maybe this says more about changes in attitudes over the centuries |
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02 May 12 - 12:35 PM (#3346138) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: dick greenhaus The Revel Bartholomew Dowling We meet 'neath the sounding rafter, And the walls all around are bare; As they shout back our peals of laughter It seems that the dead are there. Then stand to your glasses, steady! We drink in our comrades eyes: One cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! Not here are the goblets glowing, Not here is the vintage sweet; 'Tis cold as our hearts are growing, And dark as the doom we meet. But stand to your glasses, steady! And soon shall our pulses rise: A cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! There's many a hand that's shaking, And many a cheek that's sunk; But soon, though our hearts are breaking, They'll burn with the wine we've drunk. Then stand to your glasses, steady! 'Tis here the revival lies: Quaff a cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies. Time was when we laughed at others; We thought we were wiser then; Ha! Ha! Let them think of their mothers, Who hope to see them again. No! stand to your glasses, steady! The thoughtless is here the wise: One cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! Not a sigh for the lot that darkles, Not a tear for the friends that sink-, We'll fall, 'midst the wine-cup's sparkles, As mute as the wine we drink. Come, stand to your glasses, steadyl! 'Tis this that the respite buys: A cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! There's a mist on the glass congealing, 'Tis the hurricane's sultry breath; And thus does the warmth of feeling Turn ice in the grasp of Death. But stand to your glasses, steady! For a moment the vapor flies: Quaff a cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! Who dreads to the dust returning? Who shrinks from the sable shore, Where the high and haughty yearning Of the soul can sting no more? No, stand to your glasses, steady! The world is a world of lies: A cup to the dead already- And hurrah for the next that dies! Cut off from the land that bore us, Betrayed by the land we find, When the brightest have gone before us, And the dullest are most behind- Stand, stand to your glasses, steady! 'Tis all we have left to prize: One cup to the dead already- Hurrah for the next that dies! This song was recently used during the closing credits on a TV documentary about the Boer war. It used to be sung by the commander of my English Civil War regiment "The Great Steve Baker". Anyone who might have known him will know why I wrote his name like that. The above poem is supposed to have been written in India while the plague was playing havoc among the British residents and troops there. It has been attributed to Alfted Domett as well as Bartholomew Dowling. |
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02 May 12 - 01:38 PM (#3346165) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,ClaudeTheDog Also not traditional,and perhaps otherwise a bit of a stretch, the dog verse in Mr. Bojangles seems an eloquently compressed story of the life and loss of a canine comrade. At any rate, after 40+ years, I still grieve a little when I hear it. |
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02 May 12 - 01:45 PM (#3346168) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Charley Noble Dick- "The Revel" is certainly classic, and has been continually updated. Charley Noble |
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02 May 12 - 02:00 PM (#3346172) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Stan Hugill sang about poor Andrew ??? ( brain fart here) - a sailer murdered by his captain. Andrew Rose - good one. I'm sure you're right about the songs not being there. It's just odd that there are these songs lamenting a fallen fellow-poacher, but none from any other walk of life - the army and navy included. |
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02 May 12 - 02:18 PM (#3346180) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Don Firth Not necessarily a "comrade-in-arms," but--well, actually, yes, in a manner of speaking: He Was a Friend of Mine Don Firth |
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02 May 12 - 03:00 PM (#3346189) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Really not looking for songs about heroes, if you're talking about the Roger McGuinn song. The trad. version is just what I'm talking about, though. (I keep reading that it's a rewrite of "Shorty George", but I can't see much similarity.) |
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02 May 12 - 03:27 PM (#3346199) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: sciencegeek in American folk tradition there are a few laments for lost cowboys or settlers who died on the trails - Colorado Trail comes to mind. |
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02 May 12 - 03:54 PM (#3346203) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: sciencegeek I would venture to guess that the scale of death in certain situations has so much horror attached, that no lament could work. plagues and war involve so much death & carnage, while a lament is smaller scale and on a more personal note. I know that my dad would tell us funny stories from his army days in WWII.... but he could never talk about anything that involved the loss of life, except in the most general terms. I sometimes sing at American Legion halls and I see the emotion in their eyes when hearing the Star Spangled Banner or Taps... very powerful memories are buried there. |
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02 May 12 - 03:59 PM (#3346206) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Owen Woodson Laments for lost cowboys. Bury me not on the Lone Prairie comes to mind. So does When the Work's all done this fall. Also Little Joe the Wrangler. Perhaps someone more conversant with cowboy songs could produce a more definitive list. Come to think of it, were there no dying stockmen among the Australian sheep herders. Someone mentioned dogs above and there's quite a few songs about losing man's most faithful companion. Prime among them IMO is The Bogs of Shanaheever. Here's the text as Joe Heaney had it. My youth is long past and I am mighty dreary. An exile I am cast on the wilds of the prairie. I'm hunting the wild deer, the panther and the beaver. But I look back with pride on the bogs of Shanaheever. Andy and Norah (?) in their absence do get ready. By the light of the moon go and tell Master Freddie. Oh tell him to prepare and to be mighty clever. For it is the last night of hunting on the bogs of Shanaheever. Now coursed was Toby and Bruce was long-winded. Coursed every round, the two-year-old was splendid. This two year old hound he was knacky (skilful) and clever. But the next I heard there was a death on the bogs of Shanaheever. From the shores of Lough Annagh to the plains of Kilbrickan, By the light of the moon, my poor heart was a-tickin'. We took Bruce to his grave and we laid him down forever. Then I sat down and cried like a broken hearted lover. And I ta'en my passage to New York from the bogs of Shanaheever. Now Ireland my land, fare thee well now and forever. There is no land on earth that I love with such great fervour. If ever she's free, I'll go back again and see her. And I'll settle down forever on the bogs of Shanaheever. |
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02 May 12 - 06:52 PM (#3346264) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,mg I think there is not only great grief that happens, but great shame and guilt...I should have done more, or I did something very shameful to me in order to survive, or why did I live and he/she die? So especially when it comes to men (I think) there are all these codes of silence that would be broken by songs...mg |
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03 May 12 - 12:52 AM (#3346340) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,mg That line about the dust of the dead comrades is very powerful. And just the words imply so much..comarade..comaraden..compadre.. Here are the lyrics to the boys of the old brigade...warning..IRA song.. The Boys of the Old Brigade Traditional Oh, father why are you so sad On this bright Easter morn´ When Irish men are proud and glad Of the land that they were born? Oh, son, I see in mem´ries few Of far off distant days When being just a lad like you I joined the IRA. Where are the lads that stood with me When history was made? A Ghra Mo Chroi, I long to see The boys of the old brigade. From hills and farms a call to arms Was heard by one and all. And from the glen came brave young men To answer Ireland´s call. `T wasn´t long ago we faced a foe, The old brigade and me, And by my side they fought and died That Ireland might be free. Where are the lads that stood with me When history was made? A Ghra Mo Chroi, I long to see The boys of the old brigade. And now, my boy, I´ve told you why On Easter morn´ I sigh, For I recall my comrades all And dark old days gone by. I think of men who fought in glen With rifle and grenade. May heaven keep the men who sleep From the ranks of the old brigade. Where are the lads that stood with me When history was made? A Ghra Mo Chroi, I long to see The boys of the old brigade. |
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03 May 12 - 03:55 PM (#3346565) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Well, looks like it's Scott Walker's Such a Small Love, Pip. |
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03 May 12 - 05:41 PM (#3346592) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Phil Edwards Some day! |
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03 May 12 - 06:04 PM (#3346609) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Matthew Edwards Although it isn't strictly relevant, you could always try David's Lamentation as sung by the Watersons. Matthew |
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04 May 12 - 03:03 AM (#3346713) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Dave Sutherland Although Andrew Rose suffered appalling treatment from his Captain (Rodgers), in the versions that I know he wasn't murdered. The last verse goes:- "He has his friends and kind relations, To comfort him after his woes, Never treat a British sailor, Like they treated Andrew Rose" However his comrades were instrumental in bringing the Captain to justice. |
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04 May 12 - 03:08 AM (#3346714) Subject: RE: Dead comrades in traditional song From: Snuffy In real life the captain of the Martha Jane was hanged for the murder of Andrew Rose/Ross, so your versions seem to be "economical with the truth", Dave. |