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19 Nov 99 - 08:02 PM (#138536) Subject: sick of DADGAD From: potato fingers Each time I hear another guitarist( usually in his forties) has embraced DADGAD and can play Banish Misfortune, I gat the shivers. Sad to say, Celtic music, while beautiful and satisfying, has become the Windham Hill of the late nineties. When I saw the Chieftans 20 years ago, it meant something. Now I feel like I'm "...packed like lemmings into shiny metal boxes.." |
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19 Nov 99 - 11:01 PM (#138602) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Rick Fielding Hi potato (does that have an "e" on it?) Couldn't agree with you more! |
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19 Nov 99 - 11:07 PM (#138607) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: catspaw49 Yeah Spud Digits...Go see Rick's post on the "Singer/Songwriter" Thread. Spaw |
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20 Nov 99 - 09:50 AM (#138701) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: bbelle Well, 'spaw, I took your advice and read the s/sw thread and would have to agree with Mr. Fielding. Since rejoining the music world, the one big thing I've noticed is that if one doesn't sing celtic music, one tends to draw looks that say "you are just not "in." I've not minced words about my dislike of celtic music, however, I have changed my mind a bit. Listening to Big Mick at the getaway caused me to think that it's not all bad. As a matter of fact, I actually would like to learn a few tunes, especially since Big Mick and Barry Finn both say my voice is suited to it, which is a supreme compliment. I have noticed, though, that the term "elitist" is most often used in conjunction with celtic sessions, which I think is shameful. Musicians should sing/play what is good for them, be it celtic, appalachian mountain music, traditional contemporary folk, etc., and not be forced to play a type of music that doesn't "fit" them, without getting the "look." I sing/play/intepret music gotten from several folk genre and have found that, when I feel coerced to play something "foreign" (for lack of a better word), it has the tendency to sound "plastic." Not always, but enough times that I know the warning signs! And I am not a s/sw because every song I've ever written sounds just like the last song I sang/heard ... moonchild |
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20 Nov 99 - 10:28 AM (#138709) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow Windham Hill? What or who is that when it's at home? Never got my fingers round DADGAD - Standard tuning works fine for playing Irish sessions for me. If I try funny tunings I get completely thrown when the key keeps on cahnging. But then I think the guitar's place is that of a kind of bodrhan with chords, and that the tunes ought to come out of the fiddles or the mandolin or the pipes.
But I object to the idea that fashion should count in folk music - "When I saw the Chieftans 20 years ago, it meant something." The whole notion that the passing of time is an element in determining whether something is good, or true, seems absurd to me.
And what's this with the term "Celtic music"? - yes they play a lot of good music in Galicia and Brittany, and Wales. But it's got no more to do with the music of Ireland and Scotland than the music of England or Central France or Norway (less in fact, when it comes to Norway.) |
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20 Nov 99 - 12:24 PM (#138765) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Jonathan Wyndham Hill of the 90s.....I love that! Actually, it is particularly galling when you have devoted 20 years to the music to see it become so devalued. However, I can comfort myself with the thought that it's Irish music predominantly which has suffered this fate. I have lately discovered a very versatile guitar tuning which has great potential.....eadgbe. J |
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20 Nov 99 - 12:35 PM (#138772) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: wildlone If it is the same Wyndham Hill, its just on the outskirts of Yeovil.An area of unspoilt country side that the powers that be wanted to build a superstore on plus a road. |
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20 Nov 99 - 05:21 PM (#138888) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: dick greenhaus My only problem with DADGAD is that, at least to some Celtoid types, it's more a religion than it is a tuning. |
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20 Nov 99 - 05:34 PM (#138894) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: catspaw49 Okay, where's BonnieNeoBanjoPhyte so I can try this again? Its the glasses that bother me. Spaw |
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20 Nov 99 - 06:02 PM (#138904) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: AMos Double D is good for lots of stuff besides "Celtic" chunes. For example, I used to show people how I could play the banjo on my guitar in it. But that was before I grew up. You can also use it to imitate the Beatles imitating Ravi Shankar imitating traditional cittarh music. I spelled that after "catarrh" because I do not remember at the moment how it should be spelt. And its good for certain kinds of artsy fartsy stuff. Besides it gives you two instruments for the price of one.
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20 Nov 99 - 07:05 PM (#138929) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Allan C. Windham Hill, for those who asked, is a recording label here in the U.S. which, (and I disagree with those who malign it,) features a variety of excellent artists. Most of them play little else besides their own compositions or at least mix in a goodly amount of them. Many of the artists have a "folky" sound to their music (whatever image that may conjure for you is probably fitting). Some of their recording artists include: Taj Mahal, Michael Hedges, Janis Ian, and George Winston. You can see what they have here. As for DADGAD, I feel it is meeting the fate of so many other things which have met with the public attentions. It reminds me a bit of my mother's cooking. It was her habit to discover something "new", such as, "Hamburger Helper", and then use it in every way imaginable (and in some ways I would rather she had not imagined). She produced "Helper" meals until not only was the novelty worn off, but Dad and my brother and I were trying to find excuses to either eat out or at least visit some good friends close to meal time. Then, (at last!) Mom would make a new discovery - "Rice-A-Roni" or some such thing. Then the syndrome would begin all over again. Many of us (perhaps, most) tend to "like" something until such time as it seems as if it is not only no longer novel, but has become downright common. Then, in order to excuse ourselves from continuing with it, we do a complete about-face and decide to despise it. Frankly, (having lived through the "Campbell's Minestrone Soup" period, I totally understand. |
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20 Nov 99 - 08:11 PM (#138962) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow Sure, you can have too much of a good thing, so that you need to try something else to get your taste back in tune so to speak.
But that doesn't mean that the good thing is any the worse because you've pigged out on it. The fault isn't inthe music, it's in the listener.
This is different from the situation which often happens in folk music where you'll come across a new style or artist and it excites you because you recognise there's something about it you haven't found before. And then you go on and find that it's a diluted or diminished form of something you can find pure and unspoiled elsewhere.
There's junk music, like junk food. And if you've never had real minestrone, the tinned variety might turn you towards trying it out. (Or equally it might put you off.) But the Chieftains were never junk musicians (even when they've made the occasional junky recording to raise a bob or two).
As for DADGAD, if I can be sure that the rush and the fashion is over, I might have another go. Someone give us a sensible minimal DADGADF site, would you.
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20 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM (#138982) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Den Celtic music you know I'm really beginning to detest that expression. When people talk about celtic music 9 times out of 10 they're talking about Irish music. When you go to a "celtic" club how much Welsh, Manx, Cornish or Brittany music do you hear. If you took all the Irish stuff out of your "celtic" set I don't think you'd be on stage for too long. So lets give credit or disdain where credit or disdain is deserved. I grew up with Irish music I've played it all my life, I love it. For me there is none better. I get a little upset too with the elitests. I get pissed off with the guys who say, "oh I don't play the wild rover thats crap." Well maybe for you it is. I don't do it that much anymore myself but if someone were to sincerely request it I'd do it for them but then I never considered myself to be an educator or showman I consider myself to be an entertainer and I feel that when people make the effort to come and see you play then you should do your best to send them away happy on some level. When I first came to Canada I put food on my table by doing a lot of those songs and you know people liked to hear them. A lot of the guys that I've met who complain about the Wild Rover etc. seem to have short memories in that it was'nt too long ago that they were playing them themslves.I can't help it that Irish music seems to be the flavour of the month, infact for me thats just fine. The chieftains 20 years ago didn't have Matt Molloy and for my money they are a much better group now with his inclusion. So anyway if you don't like Irish music don't play it, don't listen to it but don't complain about those who do especially if they do it well. Den |
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20 Nov 99 - 09:42 PM (#138998) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Áine Count me in there with Den and McGrath! I'm too sick with a chest cold to say too much right now, but I'm with you guys. All's I'm saying is, here's the two fingered salute to elitists of any kind . . . whichever end of the DAGDAD debate you're on. Le meas, Áine |
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20 Nov 99 - 10:04 PM (#139004) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow Mostly Irish, except when it's Scottish, which it is half the time. When it isn't green coloured blue grass. Gaelic Music would be the accurate way of taking. The term Celtic I think comes from Bretons wanting to stress their national identity. And you can't blame them for that.
But in fact, while Breton music is wonderful stuff, it's much closer to French music than to Gaelic music, (or even to Welsh, where of course there is close affinity when it comes to language). The thing about the Wild Rover of course is that it isn't even an Irish song in origin. It was collected in Norfolk, and that's the version that the Dubliners picked up. Any good song will end up being sung in Ireland, and then people assume it's an Irish song to start with, rather than to finish with. The same goes for other Irish favourites like "I live not where I love" and "Fiddlers Green". I might start a thread on that, asking for other Irish songs that aren't.
The other thing about The Wild Rover that peoiple always miss is that formally at least, it's a Temperance Song. I strongly suspect that originally it was a seriously meant Temperance Song too. As for DADGAD - as I said, I've nevwer got into it. But on a bouzouki ADAD is about the most popular Irish tuning, so has anyone had any success with DADADA or ADADAD? |
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21 Nov 99 - 10:28 PM (#139354) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Frankie PF, It's the musician, not the way the pegs are twisted,IMHO. Check out Pierre Bensusan who has adopted Dsus as his standard tuning. He uses it to play many styles and will cause you to forget he's playing the detested DADGAD. He recently released a retrospective whose name escapes me but the titles look like a good sampling of his work. Best Regards, Frankie |
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21 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM (#139375) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: DonMeixner I'm very new with DADGAD, Stan Rogers seemed to favor it and it did fine by him. My fingers are such trainwreck that I'm lucky to play at all. What I find with DADGAD is some very long spaces that I can't reach. I'll stick to "G" tuning on the banjo and standard with capos on the guitar. This thing about celtic music is more troubling to me. I have sung British Isles folk music for 30 years. The songs come from all over the Isles and even parts of Franceland where they seem to have a different word for nearly everything. These song all come from the Celtic countries but apparently to some I'm not doing Celtic nusic because I'm singing and instramentalizing. Lts us don't forget that the voice was the original instrument and people who "Meerly Sing" are just as legit in the Celtic Music world as those Johnny Come Latelys who play greek instruments and tell the world they are doing Irish music. Don |
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22 Nov 99 - 03:28 AM (#139423) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Lady McMoo I use DADGAD a lot and it is very good for many tunes and songs. I also use standard and other tunings as well. There is nothing instrinsically wrong with DADGAD (I fully agree with what Frankie said above and Pierre Bensusan plays many styles beautifully in this tuning). The problem is in the minds and attitudes of some people, both players and listeners. mcmoo |
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22 Nov 99 - 04:26 AM (#139427) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Auxiris Hello, all. . . might I make a suggestion? If you're tired of DADGAD and don't necessarily want to stick to EADGBE all the time, why not do a bit of research and look for other tunings? Mark Hanson's excellent book, "The Complete Book of Alternate Tunings" perhaps could supply a few ideas. Also, if you're tired of hearing the "same ol' thing" all the time, why not take the time to learn tunes or songs that aren't getting lots of attention? For example, why play the same O'Carolan pieces (as beautiful as they are, I don't necessarily like to hear Fanny Power or Sidhe beg an Sidhe mor all the time) when there are so many OTHERS? "Mrs. Bermingham" or "Planxty Kelly" come to mind. I fail to see that there's anything wrong with accompanying a voice with a musical instrument, be it a guitar, uilleann pipes or. . . . a bouzouki. cheers. Auxiris |
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22 Nov 99 - 06:19 AM (#139445) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au I am not sick of DADGAD. I don't use the tuning myself; because I never learned it; but it gets a very rich sound out of the guitar--especially a large bodied one. What I am sick of is the identification of it with "Celtic" music. In fact I agree with several of the postings. That word is really misused. By the way, except for vocal music, one hears very little about Welsh music. Many years ago my wife played with the Welsh National Opera and we got to listen to some Welsh choruses. It is great stuff. Is there any other kinds, harp, fiddle, guitar, etc? Murray PS I BSeed took exception to another thread about travel guitars being labeled "BS". I feel the same way about this thread. |
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22 Nov 99 - 02:37 PM (#139603) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow Only hassle with different tunings is if you're trying to follow someone else's chords, or they are trying to follow yours.
The particular relevance of tunings like DADGAD to Gaelic music is it fits well with tunes which miss out the notes that would define it as major or minor, which is a bit hard to do with chords when you're playing standard tuning. The same reason Irish Bouzouki tend to be tuned GDAD or ADAD, instead of GDAE like a mandolin.
Once again, anyone got a link to a sensible DADGAD site? If it's getting under threat from the fashion cops, it's time I got around to studying it. |
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22 Nov 99 - 02:41 PM (#139608) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Rick Fielding Once again, check out it's inventor..Davey Graham. |
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23 Nov 99 - 04:18 AM (#139861) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au McGrath: Try the site http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/dadgad It has a good discussion about theory behind accompanying Irish music as well as a very complete chord chart. I think he also has a web page about Bazoukis (If that is the way you make it plural!) Murray |
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23 Nov 99 - 06:19 AM (#139872) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: JedMarum DADGAD's a great tuning. As for lemmings in a can? What'll they think of next? I've enjoyed the sardines and anchovies - even the odd tuna and salmon, but lemmings? I hope they're boneless. |
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23 Nov 99 - 06:35 AM (#139873) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: JedMarum Actually - I never use DADGAD or any other open tunings in performance. I play with them at home, for fun. DADGAD never turned me on. As for Celtic elitism, there seems to be some there, among the less learned of the music ranks. I blow it off. I play music I love. Period. If some of it is Celtic, so be it. Some of it certainly is not. And some would turn their nose at some of my Irish or Scottish arrangements, as not being Celtic enough. Fock 'em. They aren't the ones I'm playing to! |
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23 Nov 99 - 09:19 AM (#139906) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: guitaristin40sembraceddadgadplaysbanishmisfortune I don't really play Ban Mis much...but DADGAD is great for its ease of fitting in a nice flowing bass part to a fingerpicking arrangement. I agree its worthwhile working out different tunes, since some are overdone and most overlooked...its hard work though and who likes that? The drawback to the sound that I find after awhile, is that its just too damn pretty. I like a little dissonance somewhere since I am not sitting on a cloud strumming a harp...However if you're like me and never practice, dissonance is not hard to come by...and you can get some interesting effects by trying to play in a key other than D without capoing--you get chords that sound sort of right but kind of weird and unsettling due to odd inversions I guess. Did Davey Graham really invent it? I didn't know that. Bill C. |
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23 Nov 99 - 09:31 AM (#139907) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Easy Rider "Celtic" guitar music is quite the rage right now, but I have discovered that it is NOT guitar music at all, but it was originally written for and played on the Celtic harp! So, we are playing music that was never intended for the guitar, and on an out of tune guitar at that! That's not really so bad. We play Appalachian fiddle tunes on the guitar too. Out of curiosity, I bought a "Celtic" guitar CD, "Ramble to Cashel". the music was pretty, but halfway through the CD it got boring. I'm gonna get killed for saying this, but It all sounds pretty much the same to me. I'd like to hear it on the Celtic harp it was originally written for. What is a Celtic harp anyway? Open tunings are fun and easy to play in. I'm discovering open D (DADF#AD), for the first time, because of my finger injury (see OUCH! thread).
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23 Nov 99 - 09:46 AM (#139911) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Bill C If it's played on the guitar, its guitar music. You can't usually do a literal translation from one instrument to another when they have such different fingerings, stringings, techniques and outputs. But you're right in that a lot of the harp repertoire is adaptable to guitar with pretty minimal changes. Guitar is the greatest instrument for imitating other instruments, IMHO. It takes a hell of a good guitarist to play in the same tuning and repertoire all the time and not bore people. (See Bensusan, Pierre.) I could listen to JP Cormier just playing guitar all day. Us lesser fretbuzzers have to resort to switching instruments, trying different styles, alternating between songs and tunes, and learning things originating from different continents. (Or do like me, and just play in the living room, anything I like.) Bill |
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23 Nov 99 - 10:26 AM (#139920) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Bill C, You're lucky, I usually have to play in the spare bedroom with the door closed. John |
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23 Nov 99 - 12:47 PM (#139961) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Rick Fielding Yup Bill, he did (sort of). The same way Earl Scruggs "invented" bluegrass banjo picking, and Bill Keith "invented" melodic style. These people were the first to "record" these styles, so that enough folks heard them and passed them on. Davey said that he wanted to play along with Morroccan musicians and the DADGAD tuning allowed him to. Rick |
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24 Nov 99 - 01:08 AM (#140209) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Easy Rider: There was a fairly extensive thread on harps started by Helen. Try clicking here. With any luck it will take you to the thread. I think Helen once gave URL for a good harp site; but I am not sure it is in that thread. Murray |
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29 Dec 99 - 02:21 PM (#155234) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) Easy Rider, the question of so-called "Celtic" harps was discussed in this thread. I think the word "Celtic" is itself so vague that it can often be misleading. T. |
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29 Dec 99 - 02:44 PM (#155247) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Seamus Kennedy People tend to get sick of something when it's overdone. The novelty of Davey Graham, Bert Jansch, John Renbourne, Pierre Bensusan was wonderful, intersting and stimulating. But once everybody starts doing it, it loses its appeal. Don Meixner, I agree about the bouzouki in Irish/Celtic/ Gaelic music too. Johnny Moynihan, Donal Lunny and Andy Irvine started a great sounding new trend, but it's been beaten to death. As for the elitists who look down their noses at the Wild Rover, the Unicorn (Shel Silverstein never wrote a bad song!), the Black velvet Band et al., they are all fine songs that can stand up with any. They have great audience recognition/appeal. But they have been done to a turn. |
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29 Dec 99 - 03:15 PM (#155262) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Mbo Check me out! I never use alternate tunings--just plain ol' C--and I don't use capos either. But somehow I can still be original. Personally, I like to do somewhat strange chords when playing Celtic (Irish & Scottish in this instance). Infact, it may sound strange or even unharmonic to some, but if you listen to them enough, they seem perfect. I'll have to put one them on the MIDI Page for an example. As for Celtic music, I like Irish, Scottish and Breton music, and I enjoy multitudes of playing styles, from The Clancy Brothers to the Chieftains to Shooglenifty to Martyn Bennett. Though I am on a bit of an Irish kick lately, I still play other the other stuff too. And I also like Windham Hill, especially George Winston! As for the remark about "it all sounding the same" at times, I must agree. Sometimes Altan of Dervish or The Cast playing some tune set can be really boring to me. I guess their fun for dancing and such, but personally, I hand pick the tunes I play--I look for something that is a bit different, memorable, or at least can potential in one of my own arrangements. BTW Dan Ar Braz & Soig Siberil RULE! --Mbo |
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29 Dec 99 - 04:06 PM (#155286) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow I was listening to some fella on the wireless talking about Irish music.
And he said something like this:
When I first heard Irish muisc in sessions I used to say "All that stuff sounds like the same tune."
And after a bit I started to listen to it properly, and I'd say "No, it's all different tunes."
But in the end I was playing it all the time, and I decided "Yes, this stuff really is all the same tune - and it's a tune I like." William Blake said "The fool who would persist in his folly will become wise."
I think people place far too high a value on being original and different. If you set out to be original you're on a wild goose chase. Originality creeps up on you from behind, while you're trying to do something the way it's supposed to be done, for it's own sake. |
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29 Dec 99 - 04:08 PM (#155287) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: JedMarum well spoken Mc Grath. I agree with you! |
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29 Dec 99 - 04:42 PM (#155298) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Duncan Easy rider, I have been playing Open D for about 18 Months Standard Tuning for 30 Years, I use two guitars ( Not at the same time I'm not that versatile.) I am interested in TAb for Open D and am interested in swapping TABs of various Tunes if you are interested, I am thinking of putting together a book of tunes in Open D tuning My email address is duncanch@enternet.com.au hope to hear from you. |
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29 Dec 99 - 04:46 PM (#155304) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Mbo Hey guys, I didn't mean THAT different! For example "The Chinese Polka," "Christmas Eve," "The Drunken Piper," "The Carraroe Jig," "Kirrie Kibbuck," are the kinds of tunes that I was talking about--things that are a bit different, but by no means out of the genre. Maybe "distictive" is a better word. There are examples of this in Classical music as well. Some music really gets you going, while other pieces seem, no so much as "all sound the same," but rather indistinct. And it all works on a personal level. Some things I find "indistinct" sound exciting to others. Just like those tunes I arrange--I use chords that I think sound good--I'm not intentionally trying to be different, or set myself apart, but with my accumulated musical knowledge, taste, and ear come up with something that may sound like I'm trying to distance myself from others. It's really just me. Some people say they can't listen to other's music, because they might be influenced by it in their own works. I say give it all to me, and then my personal expression will be born of the collective music memory. Then again, I play some stuff exactly as I've heard other do it, and as time goes by, I remember less of the original, unconsciously add more of me in. That's originality. --Mbo |
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29 Dec 99 - 05:46 PM (#155336) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Little Neophyte A profound posting McGrath. That one goes in my note book of wise words. Catspaw, now I know it has taken me over a month to finally read this thread, but what on earth were you talking about with the glasses bothering you? BB |
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29 Dec 99 - 06:39 PM (#155354) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Tim Salt I think DADGAD is a great tuning when used to accompany certain songs and ballads but like anything can become boring, repetitive and overused if the player doesnt think about whatever it is s/he is trying to convey to the listener. As for tunes there is an excellent book written by Sarah McQuaid "The Irish DADGAD Guitar Book" ISBN 0 946005 93 1 and published by Ossian Publications Co Ltd, PO Box 84, Cork, Ireland. A tape is also available to go with it. Even if you don't intend to play celtic music, and I don't, it's a good introduction to chord structures etc. |
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29 Dec 99 - 08:24 PM (#155396) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: emily rain McGrath: you're my new hero. |
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29 Dec 99 - 10:51 PM (#155486) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: _gargoyle No doubt "FlashDance" ond "DanceFlasch" ond "Lord of the Flesch" ond "All-Its-Permutations",,,,,,,, haved played themselveas out in the States....
Time to move on to India, Pakistan, Burmda. |
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29 Dec 99 - 11:38 PM (#155504) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Big Mick Morgan Llywelyn, an author friend of mine, and I were discussing Druids once. I remember her being pissed off over "new-agers" re-creating Druids and Celtic music as what they wanted it to be instead of what they are or were. I agree with her completely. When one speaks of Celtic music as if if were a style, instead of a family of styles, I know that they don't really understand it at all. I have been raised with the music of my people all my life. I come from a working class family and if Granda were alive to hear the music that he taught me to sing referred to as "elitist", he would likely fall down laughing. He and his aul cronies would sit around playing the stuff in the kitchen or on the porch. Many times I would be summoned from play with "Mickey, lad, have you a wee song, or a bit o' the heel and toe for the lads here". They were good times. The music of the Irish and the Scots, much of it, is about life, death, drink, love, hate, rebellion, peace.......in short it is the music of a peoples dreams.....good dreams and nightmares. Sure there are musicians that have limited talent and haven't bothered to really study Ceol na Gael, and they are making some pretty lousy stuff. But their are many more who have been inspired by the old music and are making some brilliant new stuff. The bottom line is that the music will withstand these times as it always has. With regard to DADGAD, it is no different than any other technique, or style, or tuning. It has its uses and when properly applied is wonderful. Big Mick |
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30 Dec 99 - 01:35 PM (#155715) Subject: RE: BS: sick of DADGAD From: Mbo WOW, Mick, you know Morgan Llywelyn? I read her books "Red Branch" and "Lion of Ireland." Great books! After I read them, it inspired me to seek out the old tales. Nothin' like 'em! --Mbo |
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31 Dec 04 - 09:01 AM (#1368004) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,david2355@sbcglobal.net try DADDAD. |
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31 Dec 04 - 02:27 PM (#1368342) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: chordstrangler Have any of you tried a thing called the Third Hand Capo. My brother bought it back from the States for me over 15-years ago. Basically it is a capo with an individual cam for each string so that you can release any string of your choice but when you play a barre chord the tuning reverts to standard. I have used it in writing many songs. It gives a perfect mix of open and standard effects....I wonder if it is still being manufactured and why nobody has mentioned it. By the way, it also works on banjos, mandolines et al.....M |
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01 Jan 05 - 11:40 AM (#1368728) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Mooh chordstrangler...This conversation is five years old so maybe it doesn't have all Mudknowledge in it. Do a search and you'll find lots of Third Hand references. Happy New Year! Peace, Mooh. |
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01 Jan 05 - 05:15 PM (#1368963) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: EagleWing McGrath of Harlow said "I might start a thread on that, asking for other Irish songs that aren't." Dirty Old Town Shoals of Herrin (and quite a few other McColl songs) seem to end up on "Best of Irish" type CDs Frank L |
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02 Jan 05 - 01:16 AM (#1369184) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Kaleea Chordstrangler--yep, I've seen it in some catalog or other. Can't honestly remember which one. |
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02 Jan 05 - 07:50 AM (#1369284) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: PennyBlack The guitar originally had four courses of strings, three double, the top course single, that ran from a violin-like pegbox to a tension bridge glued to the soundboard, or belly; the bridge thus sustained the direct pull of the strings. In the belly was a circular sound hole, often ornamented with a carved wooden rose. The 16th-century guitar was tuned c–f–a–d¢, the tuning of the centre four courses of the lute and of the vihuela. From the 16th to the 19th century several changes occurred in the instrument. A fifth course of strings was added before 1600; by the late 18th century a sixth course was added. Before 1800 the double courses were replaced by single strings tuned E–A–d–g–b–e¢, still the standard tuning. PB |
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02 Jan 05 - 08:20 AM (#1369300) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: McGrath of Harlow Here are two tunings that are well worth trying - one is DGDGDD, which InOBU in New York told me he came up with when his hand was knocked up, and he's fallen in love with it. I was a bit nervous tuning the B string up to D, but it didn't seem to mind. And then I tried keeping that but tuning the other strings from G to A, so that it's now DADADD, and that's a great one too. They both make it feel like playing a cross between a dulcimer and a bouzouki. Well worth trying. The idea of having having different strings tuned in unison hadn't occurred to me till Larry suggested it, and I've never seen it in any of those alternative tunings books. (Though that's done with the balalaika, which is normally EEA.) |
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02 Jan 05 - 11:05 AM (#1369370) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Guy Wolff Lucky I didnt read this way back when I was recording Banish Misfortune on the green cd in DADGAD . It might have scared me off .. I am so out of the loop that I had no idea lots of people play Bannish Missfortune in DADGAD..!! I got to get out more. !!! ( thank my stars the CD is selling anyway) I love this tuning . ( Funny I an 54.... humm ) Lots of self realazation here ... Maybe I need to go to DADGAD councleing . Dose anyone know where there might be a DADGAD anonomus meeting ... It is just Sawmill tuning moved over one string but everyone might be board of that tuning too . God what am I to do !! . I know I can learn Paul Mcartney's Blackbird in DGDGBD and really wow the crowd ( something eles I play on the couch at home and love ) . Happy New Year at any rate.. All the best , Guy |
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26 Apr 08 - 03:09 PM (#2326406) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Al Frost of Petoskey After Pierre BenSusan came to our town this past summer I became curious about His guitar tuning which is Dadgad. After 40 years of slowly losing interest in regular guitar tuning music I have had a great rebirth with DADGAD. It brings more life out of the guitar and is wonderful for creating and improvising, since the open strings match any notes on the second, fouth, seventh , and ninth fret ( and most of the 5th fret). The sound can become repetetive if one does not learn the cord positions and becomes competent enough to know what he ( she) is trying to express before trying to so . It's fun during the first few months to play the scales with the open strings ,adding the bass, but as Bensusan's works show, its not just the tuning that is important . It is the talent level of the writer, the heart of the artist ,and of course the skill level. Thanks to all for their inputs , I find it all immensely interesting. szfrost@freeway.net |
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26 Apr 08 - 06:13 PM (#2326533) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Big Al Whittle Some people are bloody bores however their guitar is tuned. But here are a couple of stunning guitarists whose work I would urge you to check out before abandoning DADGAD. Ken Nicol (Steeleye's lead guitarist) plays wonderful stuff in DADGAD on solo gigs. Celtic sure enough, but also blues, ragtime, jazz, pianistic instrumentals and accompaniments. Get to one of his occasional seminars if you can. For a stunningly original view of DADGAD - get to Paul Openshaw's seminar on DADGAD at Wessex Folk Festival in Weymouth this year. Paul has devised a way to play in every key using DADGAD and there are no flies on him. A brilliant man. |
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27 Apr 08 - 04:32 AM (#2326714) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: The Sandman some people can be boring in standard. personally I favour standard,for anything related to aminor or major,I like it in c too. drop d,Ifind useful and also double drop d. Ef#bf#bd#[a bmajor tuning]is interesting too. dadgad is fine if its used properly. but surely that applies to any tuning,I find alternating tunings useful.Dick Miles |
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27 Apr 08 - 05:11 AM (#2326728) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,SonnyWalkman A partial capo, Shubb and Kaiser both make one, at the second fret on the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings puts a standard tuned guitar into EBEABE (i.e. one step up on DADGAD). This can give you the same 'Is it Major? Is it minor?' ambiguity when you require it, while at the same time maintaining standard chord shapes for any barre chords above the capo. Additionally by varying how much of a first position D chord shape you hold down (i.e. by either fretting the 1st string or leaving it open)you also have access to tunings which approximte both dropped D and double dropped D - although they are actually in E. Effectively access to 4 tunings without actually retuning a string. You can even move it into other keys by using a second 'full' capo 2 frets below the partial one, I've seen Steve Earle do this. But, as several previous contributors have noted, it's what you do with any tuning rather than the tuning itself which is where the fun is. 'Celtic' melodies fall easily under the fingers in DADGAD and are fun to play but it's a tuning that lends itself to other styles of music too - try blues. It would be a shame if people were discouraged from experimenting because a particular tuning was thought to have become hackneyed from over association with one particular style of music. |
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27 Apr 08 - 05:40 AM (#2326742) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST, Richard Bridge I am using the cutoff shubb and/or the third hand and/or the English "Scott tuning Capo" (all needed a little modification) to accompany mostly English song. Don't think of me as any sort of guitar guru though! |
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27 Apr 08 - 05:43 AM (#2326744) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Volgadon I still like 'celtic' music, but definitely not as much as I used to. Just doesn't grip me like it did. Eastern and Eastern European music speak to me a lot more. They use various weird or alternative tunings, not necesarily DADGAD. |
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27 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM (#2326869) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Grab WLD, I'd add Thomas Leeb to that list too, although his techniques extend well beyond just using the tuning. |
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27 Apr 08 - 01:03 PM (#2326949) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Tunesmith If you're sick of Dadgad, I'm really, really, really sick of standard tuning! |
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27 Apr 08 - 01:24 PM (#2326962) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: SunrayFC And if you can't play the guitar, learn GAGDAD, use one finger and you are away! |
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27 Apr 08 - 01:34 PM (#2326969) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Don Firth I never use anything but standard tuning, with an occasional forays into dropped D. I find standard tuning plenty rich and versatile, and it will be a long time before anyone exhausts the possibilities. And I don't have to keep cranking the strings up and down. Don Firth |
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27 Apr 08 - 03:18 PM (#2327045) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Tunesmith The trouble with standard tuning is that one generally - in folk clubs - hears the same chords in the same note sequence, with the same resonances, and this is bound to get tiresome. Those who play more sophisicated music i.e. classical, have composers who can mix things up. |
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27 Apr 08 - 03:32 PM (#2327054) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,DonMeixner I have never been able to get very far along the way with DADGAD so I stopped trying. As my fingers continue to worsen and I play more Bouzouki, in GDAD, I have to wonder why it is so reviled by some. Isn't a different tuning really just another bullet in the gun, so to speak? I'll go after it again sometime soon I imagine. Don |
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27 Apr 08 - 04:06 PM (#2327070) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Don Firth Yeah, Tunesmith, this is one of the reasons I spent a bit of time studying classic guitar; so my accompaniments wouldn't be just the same old thing. It's a matter of working out something interesting and different without making it too complicated and letting the classic guitar training show. Framing the song without distracting from it. If everyone comments on how great the accompaniment is, it has failed in its purpose--to accompany--the song and act as a setting. I learned this from a picture framer I worked for one summer. Artists from all over used to get their work framed at his shop and he was considered to be an artist in his own right. He said, "A good frame borrows elements from within the painting--shape of the molding, color, and so on, to set the painting off in space. But if people say "Gee, what a great frame!" and don't particularly notice the painting, it's a failure!" Same principles work for song accompaniment. You don't have to be a guitar virtuoso, you just have to use your head. Don Firth |
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27 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM (#2327085) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: The Sandman a good thing to do[in standard or any tuning]is to make a diagram of the fret board,then you can work out all your different inversions. dadgad like some other open tunings, offers you the possibility in d and g[ particularly] of making different inversions of modal dyads,easily. one finger, second fret g string,dadaad. two fingers, seventh fret g string,fifth fret a string,dadddd. three fingers,fifth fret fifth string,seventh fret g string,fifth fret, a string, dddddd. you would have some job doing the last two in standard tuning. the opportunity to play power chords[dyads],with added sevenths ninths etc,becomes generally simpler in dadgad,and you have sympathetic ringing from the strings to add to the sound. standard tuning is the most flexible tuning,particluarly if your song modulates.Dick Miles |
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27 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM (#2327169) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Big Al Whittle I think its a bit like giving up saoking - you'll get round to it when you're ready....... |
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28 Apr 08 - 03:00 AM (#2327349) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Les in Chorlton Has anyone tried BAGDAD? Although some thought it was a good idea at the time many were at least unimpressed. The more it has been tried the more problems it seems to have generated. I've tried it at the Folk Club with "The Gentleman Soldier" and it went down a bomb! |
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28 Apr 08 - 04:43 AM (#2327378) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Edward De Bono These DadGad merchants make me sick with their plink plonky approach to the guitar! |
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28 Apr 08 - 04:59 AM (#2327386) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Bryn Pugh I have posted previously that I have never been able to get DADGAD together, and not from want of trying. Pierre BenSusan, Dick Gaughan play in nowt else. I am comfortable in open C, open G and open D, as well as Concert tuning (EADGBE). So, I'm glad it isn't just me. Didn't I read somewhere on the 'Cat that Martin Carthy had given DADGAD the go-by, had KBd it ? Good for him, sez I. Oh, and while I'm about it, would it not be more accurate to say that Davy Graham discovered DADGAD, rather than 'invented' it ? For 'Celtic' music, locally, read 'diddly-diddly'- I have yet to hear any recognisable Brythonic, as opposed to Goidelic, Muzak. Far from being sick of DADGAD, I never mastered it in the first place to become sick of it. |
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28 Apr 08 - 05:16 AM (#2327393) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Jon Of what can be called "celtic", I usually only play in Irish sessions and can't really play guitar for accompanying it. I'm neither sick of DADGAD nor find what others seem to report here. The main guitarist in the session I went to regularly when I lived in N Wales played in std tuning, finger picking, and playing a lot of chords up the neck. Now I'm in Norfolk, I see 3 experienced guitar players in the 2 sessions I go to. One again in std tuning and finger picking, this time simple looking open chords but with enough variation to keep it interesting and fit the tune. The other two use plectrums. One largely "strums" chords in DADGAD, changing chords quite a lot, the other with the chords also plays a number of single (bass mostly) notes around the melody. Tuning wise, I'm told he starts of in std, dropping a d or two for some tunes and often migrating to DADGAD before the end of the night. Rather than being sick of the same patterns and methods used in this "celtic" music, I find the variety of styles I've heard used very effectively even just in regular local events quite interesting. |
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28 Apr 08 - 05:44 AM (#2327409) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Big Al Whittle Well of course DADGAD is not the exclusive preserve of celtic music players. there are some great blues licks in there. Artie Traum does a great couple of instructional DVD's for the stateside view of DADGAD. Also I'd recommend Martin Simpson's little DVD about open tunings. Martin makes the point that all open tunings can pretty much be tackled with a similar bag of techniques. Clever guy. But easier to see where he's coming from than say Martin Carthy. What C tuning is that Bryn? I've had a go at CGCGCE, and i love that one Martin Carthy uses for Famous Flower of Serving Men - DGCGCD. I haven't really got to grips with his other tuning, which makes the guitar sound like a really old instrument - a hurdy gurdy or something.. To be honest, I can't really think like he thinks about folk music - which is at the root of it. I think that the way you think about folk music will in the end overwhelm any technique that you adopt. Somehow you will end up with what is inside your head - how ever much brain damage one brings to the party! |
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28 Apr 08 - 08:09 AM (#2327490) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Mooh Can't say I'm sick of dadgad, though I use it less frequently than I once did. Open G, dgdgbd, is of more use at the moment, and sometimes open D minor, dadfad. I wish there was more time to tinker with it (and restring for it), but Robert Fripp's "new standard", cgdaeg, has real possibilities for all styles. The anti-dadgad sentiment is born out of the overuse of a few common "moves" in the tuning. They're fun and user friendly, but boring bordering on annoying when overused. Same can be said of the same old three or four "cowboy" chords played with a capo for every tune, in my opinion. Not to state the obvious, but all this user friendliness is what has made the guitar so universal and accepted in the first place...the people's instrument. Peace, Mooh. |
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28 Apr 08 - 12:09 PM (#2327710) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine I use DADGAD for some stuff. It's good for certain things, but has its limitations, unless you put a lot of work in. But the same is true of anything. |
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29 Apr 08 - 06:03 AM (#2328424) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Zen For a good decade or more I used to play almost exclusively in DADGAD. I have now moved back much more to standard tuning as I have rediscovered my first love blues and keep my favourite guitar in standard. I still use DADGAD for Irish and Scottish traditional music and keep my other guitar in it all the time... sometimes retuning slightly to DADF#AD for slide. There is nothing intrinsically "wrong" with DADGAD... anything used to excess or played badly can be bad. As an aside, I have noticed that the two guitars mentioned above seem to "prefer" and respond better to their respective tunings. I've seen in the past as well that certain guitars work better in some tunings than others. Zen |
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28 Apr 13 - 09:14 AM (#3509907) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: GUEST,Potato Fingers I just found this 13 years later. I love DADGAD. I have been playing it a lot since my first post, though I stick to standard most of time it seems. I can't even remember being Potato Fingers in 1999. |
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28 Apr 13 - 09:56 AM (#3509914) Subject: RE: sick of DADGAD From: Midchuck I went through a phase years ago of being much into DADGAD, even traveled with a 6-string tuned to standard and a 12 tuned to DADGAD. One of the things that got me out of it, in addition to being too lazy to keep hauling two cases, was my children suggesting that I try BADDAD. I got the point. I still use the "DADGAD capo" for a few songs in E (or F or G, using both the trick capo and a regular one)(or in D on the 12, which is normally tuned one whole tone flat), but I no longer bother with actual DADGAD tuning. P |