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29 Apr 15 - 11:35 AM (#3705200) Subject: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar I hope I'm not abusing the hospitality of the Mudcat Café with this message, but am casting about looking for someone knowledgeable about whistle-type instruments and archaeology, and know that several Catters fit either or both of those criteria. I have opened a new thread here: http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100334 on a bone whistle found on the southern shore of Lake Geneva, and would appreciate contributions to the discussion from anyone who can contribute even the flimsiest piece of knowledge or suggestions. To keep all the discussion in one place, I would be grateful if you could make any comments on the above thread rather than here. Indeed, if a moderator wishes to lock this thread making it read-only, I won't be at all offended. |
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29 Apr 15 - 11:42 AM (#3705202) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Roger the Skiffler Leadfingers may have dropped it (sorry, Terry!) RtS |
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29 Apr 15 - 12:19 PM (#3705216) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Jack Campin Do you still have the grot you cleaned out of it? Can you locate it exactly in the place you found it, so someone could date the soil stratum it was embedded in? The location is much like where the "Dordrecht" recorder was found, and that was only dated by the building rubble that covered it. (Sorry, I am NEVER going back to Chiff and Fipple, after one of their moderators rewrote one of my messages into mealy-mouthed idiocy and posted it under my name). The scale you got out of it isn't one of the standard pentatonic ones - it's a gapped pentachord with an overblown tonic. Common in Southern European folk music for at least the last 2000 years, so not a lot of help in dating it. |
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29 Apr 15 - 01:02 PM (#3705232) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: GUEST Thanks, Jack. I don't have any stratigraphic info on it. The owner showed it to me in a box of bits and pieces that had been excavated, none of any great evident interest. I'll ask him when I see him again in a few weeks' time. I suspect the excavating was well-intentioned exploration rather than "treasure-hunting", but still pretty amateurish, and that carbon dating - if he can persuade someone to do this - is the most promising route for dating it. I'm hoping that any circumstantial musical evidence I can gather through the internet discussion might strengthen his case to get this done by Geneva museum. |
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30 Apr 15 - 04:40 AM (#3705402) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: GUEST,Mike Yates This quote is from Randall White's "Prehistoric Art – the symbolic journey of humankind" (New York, Harry H. Abrams, 2003, p. 93): "Gravettian sites in Europe have provided large numbers of multiholed wind instruments, shown by experimentation to have served as flutes. Their sound qualities are quite haunting, and they show an equidistant scale. At one site alone, the cave of Isturitz in France, more than a dozen of these, often decorated with simple incisions, were found. Of course, we shall never know what Gravettian music was like, but we certainly have irrefutable evidence of its existence." The Gravettian period can be dated to some 22,000 to 28,000 years ago. But flutes have also been found in the preceding period, the Aurignacian, which flourished 28,000 to 40,000 years ago, and illustrations of both Aurignacian and Gravettian flutes can be found on pages 81 & 95 of White's book. |
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30 Apr 15 - 08:33 AM (#3705446) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Jack Campin True, but similar flutes have been made to the present day. If this thing was embedded in the rubble of a mediaeval fortress, that suggests it can't be older than the Middle Ages. |
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30 Apr 15 - 09:13 AM (#3705455) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: GUEST,Mike Yates At no times did I suggest that the pipe in question was ancient. I only pointed out that some pipes, dating back a long way in time, have been found. If anything, it only goes to show that, without good archaeological provinance, anything removed from the ground out of context can be all but "worthless" when it come to understanding our history. |
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02 May 15 - 06:56 AM (#3705887) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Thanks, Mike. I'll be seeing the owner in a couple of weeks and ask him if he remembers at what depth the whistle was found. His family have been excavating and rebuilding for 51 years, so I don't expect much to come of this. My main hope is that someone with musical knowledge can a) give him arguments to get it professionally carbon-dated; and b) help me to get it into playable condition by non-invasive restoration. |
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02 May 15 - 07:13 AM (#3705888) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Jack Campin If it's mediaeval bone, it may be too fragile to be playable no matter what (due to leaching by soil acids). Better to measure and x-ray it and make a replica. |
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02 May 15 - 06:29 PM (#3705977) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Thanks, Jack. It may not be that old. It feels quite sturdy. I just don't know what's needed to make it playable: maybe a plug with the right size and shape of windway, or maybe it's that the window and particularly the blade are too damaged. Or it may be that it requires a particular blowing technique. |
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02 May 15 - 07:37 PM (#3705983) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Jack Campin The top looks like a quena. Those take a while to get the hang of. |
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05 May 15 - 09:10 AM (#3706603) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Superficially yes, butin a quena the blade is part of the upper aperture. This whistle has a separate blade in the window below the top-end opening. I'll see if I can find a flute player to have a go at it. |
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05 May 15 - 01:56 PM (#3706678) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Tradsinger If it is an archeological artifact, you would be ill advised to let anyone except museum experts do anything to it. Please don't let a flute player "have a go at it". It needs to be examined and dated professionally. Tradsinger |
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06 May 15 - 11:14 AM (#3706897) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Rest assured, Tradsinger. I was thinking purely in terms of a flute player applying his/her breathing technique to try to get music out of it. |
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06 May 15 - 11:37 AM (#3706903) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Jack Campin Saliva contains carbon. It won't be easily carbon dateable after anyone's blown through it. |
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06 May 15 - 01:30 PM (#3706931) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Significant progress recorded in today's posts on the Chiff and Fipple thread. |
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07 May 15 - 08:45 AM (#3707140) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: Mrrzy Above the line? This is a fascinating discussion on something quite musical. I'm afraid of the other site... can someone post some of the critical stuff here? |
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07 May 15 - 09:09 AM (#3707149) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: GUEST,Peter Laban 'I'm afraid of the other site' Why would you? Here is the thread in question. Your computer won't explode if you read it. |
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13 May 15 - 07:15 PM (#3708755) Subject: RE: Bone whistle from near Lake Geneva From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Thank you, Peter. I just checked in to this thread again one last time to see if there were any updates. From now on, I'll let it sink into the delta sediment. If anyone has anything to contribute to the discusion, and for whatever reason doesn't want to post on the C&F thread, please send me a PM here to alert me. |