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14 Jul 15 - 01:55 PM (#3723581) Subject: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Jack Blandiver Atticus Finch a member of the Klan? WTF? I wasn't planning to bother but I can see I'm going to nave to read it now... I was recently pondering how TKAM might have fared if they'd stuck to the original title - dropping the HOW was definitely a good move... Hey, Boo to you too! |
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14 Jul 15 - 02:05 PM (#3723584) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: meself Remember - it's NOT a sequel; it's a (failed?) attempt at a first novel; apparently some elements and ideas were salvaged and re-shaped into Mockingbird. (BTW, from reviews I've read, Atticus wasn't a 'member' of the Klan; he attended a meeting). |
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14 Jul 15 - 02:10 PM (#3723586) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: maeve The author's publisher read the manuscript and asked her to write a different novel based on the character Scout as a child. Who knows how the two stories would have developed if they had been published as a series at the time "Mockingbird" was published? |
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14 Jul 15 - 02:25 PM (#3723588) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Jack Blandiver Doesn't come as surprise to these guys anyway... These Scholars Have Been Pointing Out Atticus Finch's Racism for Years |
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14 Jul 15 - 02:44 PM (#3723593) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton I's a work of fiction for fuck sake! All life has become a work of fiction. All people are flawed, all fictional characters are flawed. You are allowing your ideology to take over again. |
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14 Jul 15 - 02:52 PM (#3723597) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: MGM·Lion There never was a "how" involved, Jack B. The relevant passage that gives the book its title is "Shoot all the bluejays you want, if you can hit 'em, but remember it's a sin to kill a mockingbird." That was the only time I ever heard Atticus say it was a sin to do something, and I asked Miss Maudie about it."Your father's right," she said. "Mockingbirds don't do one thing but make music for us to enjoy. They don't eat up people's gardens, don't nest in corncribs, they don't do one thing but sing their hearts out for us. That's why it's a sin to kill a mockingbird." Regards ≈M≈ |
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14 Jul 15 - 03:03 PM (#3723599) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Jack Blandiver Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. Never open up a light hearted thread on Mudcat. |
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14 Jul 15 - 03:21 PM (#3723604) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Lighter Several talking heads on TV explaining what a disaster this is for our children, how Atticus (of TKAM) is no longer a hero, blah blah blah blah. A book reviewer asserts for no reason I can fathom that from now on, any teacher who wants students to read TKAM will *have to* tell them about the "other Atticus." You know, the other imaginary one in a different novel written years earlier, superseded by TKAM, and apparently so bad it couldn't be published till now. I wonder how Huckleberry Finn is doing these days. (Remember, he used the N-word a lot.) |
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14 Jul 15 - 03:37 PM (#3723607) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: fat B****rd Jack, have you seen "The Shining"?. You're right, mind you. |
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14 Jul 15 - 03:42 PM (#3723611) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton If it's supposed to be a light heated thread, why the ideological links? |
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14 Jul 15 - 03:57 PM (#3723617) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: JeffB "Go set a Watchman" is set in the 1950s; it's not a back story to "Mocking Bird", more of development of the characters of Atticus and Scout. It was discussed on this evening's Front Row on BBC Radio 4 with Erica Wagner and the Anglo-American writer Bonnie Greer. The podcast can be heard on the R4 website - www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 |
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14 Jul 15 - 04:06 PM (#3723620) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: meself I don't know how it can be a 'development' when it came first .... |
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14 Jul 15 - 06:59 PM (#3723648) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Vashta Nerada To Kill A Mockingbird is almost sacred to many readers. It struck the right tone at the time it was published. There will always be close readings that try to pick it apart, but for a first novel, it was just about perfect. The publication of this other novel suggests to me that Ms. Lee is not totally in charge of her own affairs any more. |
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14 Jul 15 - 07:14 PM (#3723652) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Stower People are discussing Watchman as if it is a development of Mockingbird, when the truth is the other way around. Watchman may be set chronologically after Mockingbird, but Watchman was written first. Secondly, and because this is a work of fiction, and because Watchman was shelved and never intended to be published (until now, for some reason I don't understand), I'm not sure that the Atticus Finch in Watchman really is the same person as the Atticus Finch in Mockingbird. Yes, they have the same name and were devised by the imagination of the same author, but every character was reshaped and reimagined from the never-to-be-published Watchman to the publisher-approved Mockingbird. Thirdly, I strongly suspect this is a case of publicity-seeking cherry-picking. Nothing about this book is more guaranteed to get publicity than declaring the taken-to-heart hero turned out to be a racist. I'd like to read the whole novel in context before taking that bit of publicity on face value. |
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14 Jul 15 - 07:25 PM (#3723653) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Lighter Lee's biographer Charles Shields describes Go Set a Watchman as - get ready - "an unedited manuscript." In other words, merely a draft of a novel that Lee never finished working on. Shields says that Lee adapted and greatly improved some of the material for use in To Kill a Mockingbird. Shields also told CNN that the new book "has no literary merit." Publication now, it appears, is mainly a money-grab. |
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14 Jul 15 - 07:37 PM (#3723658) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,HiLo I find the title of this thread both misleading and well, a bit dishonest! It appears to be desIgned to be provocative. It is anything but "lighthearted" . If the word "racist" contonues to be used in this so called lighthearted way, it will cease to have meanIng and that would be a shame. Atticus is a fictional character, full stoP. |
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14 Jul 15 - 09:00 PM (#3723674) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: JeffB Stower, yes you're right. A quick look on the Net shows that Lee wrote Watchman in the mid-50s, while Mockingbird was published in 1960. That was not apparent in the Radio 4 discussion I heard. I agree as well that Atticus Finch (and no doubt the character of Scout as well) should not be assumed to be identical in both works. The introduction to the programme said that Watchman was found stored in a bank vault, and Lee, who is now 89 and in care in a residential home, gave permission for its publication. Certainly the publishers are going to make money out of this, but - who knows? - maybe Lee feels her financial reserves need topping up as well. The two guests on the programme certainly did not think that the book has no literary merit, but they agreed that it should be thought of as a draft rather than as a finished piece. Bonnie Greer made the point that the Atticus Finch in Mockingbird could not be anything other than racist, given the time and place in which the story is set, and his social status. |
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15 Jul 15 - 12:38 AM (#3723693) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Stilly River Sage Too bad playwright Horton Foote isn't around. He worked closely with Lee to craft the film screenplay, and could probably shed light on the evolution of these characters. I have the book in my hand as I type, and plan to read it this week. More to follow. No spoilers, I promise. |
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15 Jul 15 - 12:56 AM (#3723696) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST Is that 'evolution' from the characters of Watchman to the characters of Mockingbird, or the other way around? |
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15 Jul 15 - 09:58 AM (#3723792) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Lighter Since "M-bird" is a different novel and not a sequel, any talk of "evolution" is pretty meaningless. "Atticus Finch" in the earlier tale was a segregationist. In the later book he opposed racism. Lee re-imagined the character after abandoning "Go Set a Watchman." That makes the two Finches different people, so there's no "evolution" in their attitude, only in the story that Lee chose to tell. "M-bird" sounds like the more positive statement. Some had stronger feelings than others, but probably 98% of white Southerners in the 1950s were segregationists. |
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15 Jul 15 - 01:16 PM (#3723838) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Don Firth The more I hear about this, the more I think they should have let To Kill a Mockingbird carry the message and left the first draft in the bottom drawer. Don Firth |
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15 Jul 15 - 10:09 PM (#3723914) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST, ^*^ The original novel (Watchman) contains the same locale and many of the same characters who were teased out and turned into the novel To Kill A Mockingbird. This is what Ms. Lee's editor suggested. So yes, it is an evolution, from the earlier draft of a novel to the later completed novel that was Mockingbird. There are many who feel that this latest published but earlier written book should have remained buried. I'll finish reading it before I cast a vote one way or the other. |
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16 Jul 15 - 10:23 AM (#3724028) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: McGrath of Harlow I suppose if someone discovered a manuscript by Dickens in which there was an honest and kindly milkman called Bill Sykes, that would mean these people who so exercised by this ancient set-aside version of Atticus would think that our understanding of his namesake in Oliver Twist would have to be totally revised. |
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16 Jul 15 - 10:58 AM (#3724035) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,Dave I opened this thread thinking this was someone on Fox News, but apparantly not. |
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16 Jul 15 - 03:24 PM (#3724124) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Jack Blandiver Fox News? Try this! Fox News Opinion : Why I see nothing wrong with a flawed Atticus Finch |
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16 Jul 15 - 05:58 PM (#3724158) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Lighter "...A vein of gold to be mined." I.e., a money-grab. |
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16 Jul 15 - 06:07 PM (#3724160) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton Hmmm....I think I said something like Mr Coffee in a couple of sentences further up the thread. |
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17 Jul 15 - 02:06 AM (#3724207) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Y'all have fun. |
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17 Jul 15 - 04:47 PM (#3724398) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: wysiwyg Nothing lighthearted about any aspect of racism. |
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17 Jul 15 - 05:32 PM (#3724404) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Greg F. I dunno, Susan - Trump seems pretty lighthearted, and more importantly so do Republican voters in this poll: Q: "Recently, presidential candidate Donald Trump called for a wall on the U.S.-Mexico border. He said Mexico is quote, 'sending people that have lots of problems…. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.' Setting aside how Trump worded his comments, do you think he's basically right on this, or not?" A total of 70% of Republican voters said they believe Trump's racially charged rhetoric is correct. That's not a typo – seven in 10. |
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18 Jul 15 - 12:02 PM (#3724593) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Was being sarcastic, Susan. |
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18 Jul 15 - 05:00 PM (#3724640) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: wysiwyg Warn't answering you Janie. (OP remark.) |
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18 Jul 15 - 05:58 PM (#3724645) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,big al whittle strange on planet mudcat, how worked up people get about fictional characters being labelled racist. whilst other people get way with calling living folk racist virtually at will. |
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18 Jul 15 - 09:39 PM (#3724675) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Good observation, Al. |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:31 AM (#3724699) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,HiLo Very good point Al. There have been some very nasty examples on mudcat . |
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19 Jul 15 - 02:38 PM (#3724821) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie On the other hand, I think that anyone of us who assert we are not racist needs to take a look inside. If I declare I am not racist, then I adopt a paradigm that continues to keep me blind and fosters institutional racism. |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:10 PM (#3724831) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Interview with Ta-Nehisis Coates |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:17 PM (#3724834) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,HiLo A paradigm ? Hi Janie, could you explain that, I am not sure I understand your meaning. |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:17 PM (#3724835) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Not sure that link above is the correct link - was listening and linking to the player. Hope this one is a link to the Coates interview only. Trying to link to his Fresh Air interview. http://www.npr.org/tags/126918976/ta-nehisi-coates |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:19 PM (#3724836) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: MGM·Lion "If I declare I am not racist, then I adopt a paradigm that continues to keep me blind and fosters institutional racism." ..,,.. Ooooh. I love it. ♩♩♬ A paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox ♬♬ You'll always find the right words somewhere in Shax or Shaw or Wilde or [as here[ Gilbert. No idea what it means, mind. But that's quite beside the point when you contemplate the paradoxical ingenuity of the concept! ≈M≈ |
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19 Jul 15 - 04:20 PM (#3724849) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie I'll try HiLo. I acknowledge a tendency to run-on sentences and to be an absolute failure at either the pithy, to the point comment, or to be able to keep things simple. Each of us experiences and interprets our internal and external world through a number of filters. Those filters are very complex and are built from our our personal experiences, our individual biology, the ways our early experiences shape the neural pathways of our brains, social learning, cultural shaping, etc. etc. etc. Those filters shape the paradigm(s) through which we experience our lives, our environment, and how we interpret all of the sensory input we experience. Each and every one of us operate in the world within the context of one or more paradigms. (I speculate that is true of most, if not all sentient life, human or otherwise.) Paradigms are necessary filters - we would be so overloaded with 'data imput' otherwise that we would be rendered non-functional. Even so, every paradigm distorts. Some paradigms are more porous than others and distort somewhat less, but all paradigms distort. Most of us humans operate from more than one paradigm, and those different paradigms within each of us result in internal processes and interactions that lead to some interesting 'stuff.' Paradigms filter in and filter out information, sensory experience, information, individual and collective cultural experiences and learning, etc. They impact each of us in every single way we experience ourselves and others, how we interact with other individuals, neighbors, community, our own society and the world of ideas. Our paradigms may shape our personality traits - which also implies that some paradigms are genetically predisposed to be more closed or open - or our personality traits may strongly shape one or more of our paradigms, but that is a tangent and an on-going exploration along the same lines of "which came first, the chicken or the egg." Within the same individual some paradigms may have more open boundaries and some paradigms may be very rigid, and what a remarkably complicated and sometimes indecipherable. Just to spice up the mix a bit, there is an infinite amount of variation in how individuals are wired to be emotionally reactive or sensitive, to be in touch with or cut off from emotions, or to simply either experience emotions more intensely or less intensely. That each of us operates from paradigms is a given and well documented by both social science and neuroscience research. Whether any particular individual accepts that and is open to attempting to explore their own paradigms, and at a minimum, question themselves, much less be open to the possibility that their paradigm in either any particular or general situation is not a given at all. |
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19 Jul 15 - 04:24 PM (#3724854) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Oh Jeez. Fill in the missing words:>) |
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19 Jul 15 - 04:26 PM (#3724855) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie And don't be so modest M (can't do the fancy symbols.) You do understand that paradox is at the heart of existence. |
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19 Jul 15 - 05:21 PM (#3724859) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton This is getting way over my head...bring back the Muskets :0( |
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19 Jul 15 - 05:31 PM (#3724863) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton I think the proper psychiatric term is being "up ones own arse"?? |
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19 Jul 15 - 06:00 PM (#3724868) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie Please see pm, Ake. |
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19 Jul 15 - 07:19 PM (#3724884) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,HiLo Hi again; I think I am confused by your use of the word paradigm. I am not sure if I agree with you or not because I am not sure what exact paradIBM to which you refer actually is. I don't mean to be Pedantic but.... |
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19 Jul 15 - 08:18 PM (#3724893) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Greg F. That kind of "professional" pseudo-scientific babble-speak is meant to confuse, Hilo. That's why its employed. |
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19 Jul 15 - 08:24 PM (#3724894) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie If I misspelled paradigm as paradIBM, I apologize. I think it is fruitless for me to say more. I don't have the appropriate communication skills that work in a public forum such as this. |
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19 Jul 15 - 08:38 PM (#3724896) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie To make sure there is no misunderstanding, the failure is mine. |
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19 Jul 15 - 09:04 PM (#3724899) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: GUEST,HiLo No, I messed it up. Big thumbs, bad eyesight and all on a small mobile. I truly was curious about your definition as it is one of those words that we all seem to have a different interpretation of. Sorry, I meant no disrespect. |
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19 Jul 15 - 10:38 PM (#3724906) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Janie I did not take your remark as being disrespectful, HiLo. I am weary. I really should follow the example of many others and stop posting to these threads at all. I do not have energy to follow through to have a decent conversation with the rare folks such as yourself who are interested in conversation, and am too easily offended by the jabs of folks like Greg F. and Ake because this is not just a forum to me, it is a community. A community that once was, but is now just a forum, and it is my problem that I still resist the change. Really is my problem. |
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20 Jul 15 - 02:45 AM (#3724928) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: akenaton I'm sorry Janie, is was a stupid joke that went wrong and was not aimed at you. I'll PM you later and explain...A |
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20 Jul 15 - 06:50 PM (#3725107) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Brian May Just popped back for a look-see. Nothing has changed . . . oh dear. Bye for now. |
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29 Jul 15 - 11:39 AM (#3726956) Subject: RE: BS: Atticus Finch - Racist??? From: Jack Blandiver Phew! WTF was all that about??? Crikey! I'd love to hear other impressions but I thought all was going rather swimmingly until the uncle resorted to physical violence to literally beat some sense into poor Scout regarding their noxious opposition of the NAACP. And what then? She crumbles. Depressing stuff. Am I missing something???? I hope so! * Nothing lighthearted about any aspect of racism. Indeed not, but when its addressed in a form of entertainment, no matter how well intention (or at least seemingly so) then we must remain guarded as to the motives, especially given the cultural weight & folklore of To Kill a Mockingbird. |