Josh White

24 Jul 15 - 03:07 PM (#3725874)
Subject: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

just watching Josh on dvd.

he was a major influence on me as a guitarist. all the kids at school were into the Shadows - but my Dad got me to listen Josh as he was making a few tv programmes in England at the time.

i wonder if any of you guys ever saw him live and had any recollections. any thoughts about his guitar technique....

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24 Jul 15 - 03:10 PM (#3725876)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Mark Ross

Talk to Frank Hamilton (aka Stringsinger). He knew Josh, and taught Josh's basic strum to Odetta.

Mark Ross

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24 Jul 15 - 03:25 PM (#3725879)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

thank you Mark!

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24 Jul 15 - 07:07 PM (#3725925)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Peter verity

Rumour has it he learned by watching blind lemon Jefferson!

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24 Jul 15 - 10:06 PM (#3725962)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

Well according to Josh's biographer , Elijah Wald, Josh's family were impoverished by some peevish act of Jim Crow skulduggery.

So from the age of seven Josh had the job of leading round various blind singer guitarists - Jefferson being the most famous. They were all mean abusive characters, who kept nearly all the money and boozed and gambled it. They kept Josh barefoot even in the winter to make the act look more piteous. They were careful not to share their musical secrets - but I think - if we look carefully , we can see some of what he learned by observing. it was a tough apprenticeship.

From Jefferson himself. I would estimate the main technique he took was his way with bass staccato runs that are not just show pieces - they swing fiercely and drive the song along. With jefferson he added a sort of falsetto - Josh's voice is rich baritone but it weaves into these bass runs.

Josh doesn't go for the syncopated double finger picking. but he has ways of scooping and strumming at the strings that come at the listener as bewilderingly complex - making train noises, or bouncing a lyric at you. as people have pointed out Odetta used this kind of masterful strumming also.

The other thing that strikes me about Josh's work is the presentation. He is always telling you the story - trying to make you understand it, trying to draw you in. there is none of that celtic reverie business. he is in your face with interesting or amusing detail. his genius is taking the street corner shtick and making something that will work in the Gate of Horn or The Blue Angel, or down the lens of a tv camera. He must have worked hard at his diction to effect that translation.

There is also some quite exotic chording that gives an air of finesse.
These are my observations and I 'm sure there may be people who think I've got it wrong. Please put me right where i am wrong. This subject fascinates me..

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25 Jul 15 - 02:42 AM (#3725979)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Mike Yates

I saw Josh White perform once in Manchester. During one song a string broke on his guitar. He didn't stop playing, but changed the string as he played, without missing a beat. Needless to say, I was very impressed. Years later I mentioned this to Hootenanny who told me that, in fact, this was a part of his act and was something that he did on purpose! I cannot recall any of the songs that he sang that night (it was a long time ago), but I do remember how much I enjoyed listening to the man.

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25 Jul 15 - 08:45 AM (#3726013)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Bignige

I seem to recall he did a late night series in the very early days of BBC2.

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25 Jul 15 - 10:47 AM (#3726023)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST

He was a major influence on Walt Robertson. bpb(deckman)nelson

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25 Jul 15 - 11:17 AM (#3726039)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

to be honest - i think maybe you can see his influence more in England - where he was totally unique, and where he spent a fair bit of time.

his in your face kind of presenting a song, concentrating your attention on the words by telling little stories was adopted to great effect by Derek Brimstone. plus we had a guitarist of genius cled Gerry Lockran who seemed to have a style reminiscent of Josh.

these two were round folk clubs for much of the latter part of the sixties for about twenty years.

having said that i have written to stringsinger and would love to hear from Walt.
it would be nice if we could isolate some of the great qualities and trto understand the nature of it.

what i said earlier about that scooping strumming style. i just noticed that he often bookends with a smooth arepeggio. its this clever interplay of wildness with sophistication that makes him seem so urbane.

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25 Jul 15 - 12:26 PM (#3726045)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

My third album, after Elvis's Golden Records and The Kingston Trio's Close Up, bought circa 1960, was "The Josh White Stories - Volume 1". My brother and I learned many of the songs from that album: House Of The Rising Sun, Nobody Knows You..., What You Gonna Do When Your Meat Runs Out, Boll Weevel, Frankie & Johnny... We first learned to bend strings from listening to that album. I'm not sure how close we came to Josh's style, but it seems that he did a bunch of palm muting.
Josh White Jr. used to play in Hamilton folk clubs in the sixties and we never missed one of his shows. He also played with no strap and one foot up on a chair, like his dad. I don't think he ever got the hang of playing with a lit cigarette stuck behind his ear though. I gave up on that after the first couple of tries.

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26 Jul 15 - 02:08 PM (#3726257)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

refresh

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26 Jul 15 - 06:19 PM (#3726310)
Subject: CAN WE TALK ABOUT JOSH WHITE
From: The Sandman

is there anyone on this forum who saw him live?

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26 Jul 15 - 08:50 PM (#3726331)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Deckman

The closest I came was in January of 1967. I was stuck for three days during a horrendous snow storm in Chicago. I saw that he was performing in one of the clubs (lounges) at the hotel where I was staying. I scurried down but the place was jammed and the ten foot tall bouncer would NOT let me in. By jumping up and down a little, I did manage to see his face once. But I could hear him ... somewhat.

CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

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27 Jul 15 - 04:16 AM (#3726382)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Mike Yates

Hi Good Soldier, don't you read what people write? I said above that I saw Josh White singing in Manchester.

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27 Jul 15 - 04:45 AM (#3726393)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

Oddly enough, I've listened to very little Josh White over the years, being more interested in Bill Broonzy and Brownie McGhee when I first started listening to blues back in the '60s. What I did hear of White was from his latter years - stuff which I found slightly bland or even mannered at the time. Understandable, given the environments in which he was playing at the time.

I've just been trawling through the chronological collection of his stuff from 1929 onwards (on Spotify) and enjoying much of it - his earlier guitar work seemed more akin to McGhee and Broonzy in the 1930s, and that appeals to me more.

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27 Jul 15 - 04:56 AM (#3726397)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

I am inclined to agree Will, another guitarist i find very interesting is lonnie johnson, sophisticated guitar runs.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8fyb9vpIc0

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27 Jul 15 - 04:58 AM (#3726398)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

yes indeed Will - he was phenomenal.

i really want to talk to people who have drawn upon him as an influence.

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27 Jul 15 - 05:16 AM (#3726401)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,MikeOfNorthumbria (sans cookie)

Dear Private Schweik,

The short answer to your question is "Yes". Now here is the long answer...

I saw Josh at London's Royal Festival Hall in December 1960. I had never heard (or even heard of) him, but a knowledgable friend recommended him strongly,so I went. It changed my life.

Here are some of the reasons why - in no particular order.

Josh was a virtuoso guitar player, who opened my ears to what was possible on the instrument. But there was no self-indulgent grandstanding - the guitar was always the servant of the song.

He had a excellent voice, used in whatever way was necessary to get the best out of a song, but without ostentatiously drawing attention to itself.

He gave every song - from light-hearted romps like "Apples,Peaches and Cherries' to heavy stuff like 'The Man Who Couldn't Walk Around' - total commitment. And each song opened a window, or a door, through which he invited you look at(or maybe even walk into) the picture he was painting for you.

He could make prejudice and injustice look not just wicked, but stupid, with satirical songs like 'Free and Equal Blues'. (Look it up on Youtube - it's still relevant.) But he could also confront racism head on with 'Strange Fruit' - and then say that in spite of that cancer in his country's soul, he was still proud to be an American, and explain why by singing 'The House I Live In'.

And one more thing - about the string-breaking trick. Yes, he did it that night, and I was impressed. And I remained impressed after discovering that it was a regular occurrence.

He broke the string while hammering out the final verse of 'Betty and Dupree', and then fitted (and tuned up) the replacement while singing 'Summertime', accompanied by his bassist Jack Fallon. Josh brought in the (perfectly tuned) guitar seamlessly towards the end of the song, and got a thoroughly justified round of applause when he finished.

Anyone who's tried tuning up on stage - let alone tuning up while singing - should appreciate what an achievement that was. And yes. it was a stunt - but it was also a little piece of theatre, which helped create the informal atmosphere that he wanted, and that the audience appreciated.

Josh was both a craftsman and a showman, both a radical and a patriot. I wish we had more like him.

Wassail!

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27 Jul 15 - 05:36 AM (#3726406)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

Quite right, Dick - Lonnie Johnson was a wonder. His duets with Eddie Lang (alias "Blind Willie Dunn") are stupendous. Lonnie J also had a superb singing voice.

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27 Jul 15 - 05:53 AM (#3726412)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

I saw Josh on BBC TV around 1960, and was not impressed!
Even though I was only 15 or 16 I sensed that he was tailoring his material for a white audience.
Who wants to hear an authentic blues singer performing Molly Molone and I gave my love a cherry?
His watered down performance was big disappointment.

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27 Jul 15 - 06:52 AM (#3726423)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick

Tunesmith. Ditto. I remember those Josh White programmes. They went out fairly late in the evening, and I even recall him singing the two songs you mention.

I was about twelve at the time and was too young to have bitten the blues bullet. When I did and I heard the likes of Howlin' Wolf, Robert Johnson and Fred McDowell, I realised what a load of puerile puss White had been pumping out.

Many years later of course I discovered the young Josh White (aka Pinewood Tom and The Singing Christian)and found he'd once been a different, and far more agreeable, kettle of fish altogether. What a pity those smart New York nightclub audiences couldn't have accepted him as he was; brilliant guitar and all.

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27 Jul 15 - 07:50 AM (#3726439)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

Well,ok, good points but did he introduce people by being commercial who then went on to discover more rootsy kind of blues?

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27 Jul 15 - 07:58 AM (#3726443)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Fread, I too saw Josh at the Albert Hall and agree that he was an excellent musician. The string breaking schtick was interesting to say the least and some of the material was a bit naff. BUT Josh was making his living by being an entertainer which means catering to the masses or a least a goodly number of them and by doing that material he was able to obtain a reasonable living. If he had catered only to blues aficiandos we probably would never have seen him in the UK.
Some people criticised Broonzy for leaning more on "Folk/country" style blues in his later years (and having a publicity photograph taken dressed in denims)rather than the up-town stuff which he had played in Chicago. Short answer; the guy was trying to make a decent living.So let's be thankful that at least we had a chance to SEE and hear just how good they were.

In the early sixties the blues audience was tiny in the UK. I was also at Muddy Waters and Otis Spann's first UK appearances and the mainly jazz audience were very scathing. Electric blues was not for them.

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27 Jul 15 - 08:45 AM (#3726462)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

It's the old, old story, isn't it? If you really want to make a living in the music business, then you're often forced into playing what people want to hear - what's acceptable at the time - just to eat and put a roof over your head.

As I said, I didn't care for the older Josh White that I heard on record in the 60s but, as Hoot has just said, he was trying to make a decent living. Anyone who's gigged to any extent knows the feeling. I was knocking out "Peggy Sue" in the Bat & Ball (a market traders' local full of middle-aged boozers) in Brighton yesterday afternoon. I'd much rather have been playing "Johsefin's Dopvals" on my tenor guitar - but there you go. The cash can talk sometimes.

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27 Jul 15 - 09:18 AM (#3726474)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Elmore

Saw him in Boston a few times. Excellent performer. Pretty slick compared to Rev. Gary Davis and Son House.

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27 Jul 15 - 03:13 PM (#3726554)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: meself

I used to play harmonica with an older, Black bluesman. From time to time, he would grumble about audiences wanting him to play nothing but blues: "I like playing blues, but that ain't ALL I want to play!" Maybe Josh White liked performing that square stuff - as well as liking to eat.

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27 Jul 15 - 08:22 PM (#3726597)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: dick greenhaus

If it weren't for Josh White, Blues would have remained a tiny niche in the music field. I've heard him ply in person dozens of times, and I'll maintain that he (and Brownie McGhee) remain among the most underrated bluesmen ever.

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28 Jul 15 - 01:51 AM (#3726622)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Mike Yates

Totally agree with Dick. I saw Brownie McGhee a couple of times in Manchester (at around the same time that I saw Josh White). They were both excellent performers and I am amazed how overlooked they are today. I especially like the recordings that can be heard on the CD set "The Little Red Box of Protest Songs" (Properbox 147), not perhaps "blues", but rather songs for people who were aware of the social inequalities of that time, and who wanted to do something about it.

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28 Jul 15 - 09:43 AM (#3726686)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Vic Smith

Mike Ainscough wrote
" Lonnie Johnson was a wonder. "

I saw Lonnie Johnson play live a couple of times; does that count?

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28 Jul 15 - 11:23 AM (#3726704)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: John on the Sunset Coast

Last night I came across a Randolph Scott western, The Walking Hills. It features Josh White as a saloon habitue. I listened to his first song, then bookmarked the YouTube page to watch at a more convenient time. I'm expecting that White will be the best thing in the film, not that Randy is chopped liver.

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28 Jul 15 - 02:22 PM (#3726747)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Well, the reason that Brownie is not revered these days is that Delta blues seems now to be accepted by many as real, authentic blues while less intense styles of blues are undervalued

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28 Jul 15 - 03:15 PM (#3726759)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

I never thought Sonny & Brownie were under rated. Most of the blues fans I know have their records in their collections.

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28 Jul 15 - 03:18 PM (#3726761)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

My own thoughts on why Brownie McGhee is not given his due recognition is that "familiarity breeds contempt" Terry and McGhee were a great duo and both amazing musicians. They toured widely and and made numerous recordings their music therefore was readily available and perhaps too familiar. It's the old story, if they had only ever made a couple of sides we would be saying about how great they were and wouldn't it be wonderful if they had recorded more.
Fortunately Brownie lived reasonably comfortably to a reasonable age.
No tragic early death or fictitious legends and praise from expert pop musicians who never met him to tell us how wonderful he was.

He was a great picker and singer. As to which styles are "undervalued" Delta, Piedmont, Texas ? it's all a matter of personal taste.

Vic, I too saw Lonnie Johnson a couple of times. Unfortunately he was more into ballads when he came over like his King recordings using electric guitar. Personaly I would have preferred to hear him playing some of that old acoustic style that he did on a twelve string. However like Josh White he was playing what he thought his new audience wanted to hear.

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28 Jul 15 - 10:19 PM (#3726844)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Elmore

Sort of of off topic, but I totally agree with Guest.Hootenanny. I really appreciated him when Brownie and Sonny were playing in smaller venues in NYC, like Gerde's and The Gaslight. Later on, in Boston, it sometimes felt like they were mailing it in.

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29 Jul 15 - 04:29 AM (#3726883)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

Sonny and Brownie famously didn't get on when they were off stage. An old mate of mine saw them when they appeared at a folk club in Blackburn in the 1960s. There was a party after the gig - which Brownie went to, playing into the early hours of the morning and enjoying the best part of a bottle of brandy - a party which my friend attended after walking Sonny back to his hotel when the gig had finished.

I think it can sometimes be difficult, when you've been playing the same stuff with the same partner for many, many years, to stay fresh and focused and up for it - particularly when your audiences expect the same repertoire year in, year out.

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29 Jul 15 - 09:27 AM (#3726921)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

yes i have alive recording of them, live at the bunk house, brownie clearly says try playing in a some time ,after the number

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29 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM (#3726978)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Mark Clark

Oddly, I never saw Josh perform live. I do remember, however, my partner Herb Jones and I having a nice chat with Josh on Chicago's Rush Street after one of our gigs ca. 1963. Josh had finished someplace else and we all talked for quite a while there in the early hours. That was my only meeting with Josh.

Like Will, I was more into Brownie and Big Bill at the time.

      - Mark

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29 Jul 15 - 03:06 PM (#3726997)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

I have a recording where Sonny taes the first two breaks, then Brownie says, "I'm gonna play some blues . . .if you'll let me."
Their awkward friendship was no secret.

I became a Josh fan first because I didn't even hear Brownie and Sonny and Big Bill till 1961 or 1962. I saw Mississippi John and Rev Gary Davis and Skip James in the summer of '64 and became a huge fan as well.

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29 Jul 15 - 03:09 PM (#3726998)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

this album is fabulous - some of THE best blues playing ever! and it costs only £1.39 - get it!


http://www.amazon.co.uk/Empty-Bed-Blues-Josh-White/dp/B00OY1GGMW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438196842&sr=8-1&keywords=empty+bed+blu

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29 Jul 15 - 03:13 PM (#3727003)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

I bought my first Josh White record because he was a folk singer, not a blues singer. The same was true of Lead Belly.
My dad said, "You're becoming a real blues fan, eh Jim?"
I said, "What do you mean?"
Dad listened to Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday, Taft Jordon & His Mob, Velma Middleton, Fatha Hines. . . and that's what I thought of as blues. T me the guys I was listening to were folk singers.

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29 Jul 15 - 09:56 PM (#3727080)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"My own thoughts on why Brownie McGhee is not given his due recognition" Well, he is, isn't he? How famous is Peg Leg Howell?

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29 Jul 15 - 10:03 PM (#3727084)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"What I did hear of White was from his latter years - stuff which I found slightly bland or even mannered at the time. Understandable, given the environments in which he was playing at the time." Even his early stuff seems pretty bland and mannered to me.

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29 Jul 15 - 10:06 PM (#3727085)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"If it weren't for Josh White, Blues would have remained a tiny niche in the music field." Blues music became a national craze when Josh was about 2.

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29 Jul 15 - 10:09 PM (#3727086)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"how overlooked they are today" A google search on "brownie mcghee" gets about 367,000 hits. A search on brownie mcghee cd on amazon gets 218 hits.

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29 Jul 15 - 10:15 PM (#3727089)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"Well, the reason that Brownie is not revered these days is that Delta blues seems now to be accepted by many as real, authentic blues while less intense styles of blues are undervalued" "Intensity" is overvalued today whether the artist was from the Delta or not (e.g. Bessie Smith is valued for being "intense," Delta or not).

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30 Jul 15 - 04:41 AM (#3727131)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

look take my word for it. with Josh -there is substance there if you care to look. I want this thread to be really positive and i would like to discuss this great players techniques.

as a kid, he led round Jefferson - probably saw his music more than anyone else. and he was a deeply interested party. he was a star witness to history.

I notice that empty bed blues - very fine playing is in E flate. he has tuned his guitar a semitone down. was this a general thing? I know its said Leabelly tuned his 12 string a whole tone down.

Everybody plays stuff to make a living. Robert Johnson certainly did. Josh's audiences were wealthy enough to buy an album of the performance they had seen that evening in a night club.

Years ago I remember being in a hotel in germany opposite Luther Ellison. The German promoter was apologising for the unhip audience - he said, I was so ashamed when they asked for San Francisco Bay Blues.
Luther said, that's okay, I didn't mind playing it....

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30 Jul 15 - 09:48 AM (#3727203)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

One of Robert Johnson's biographies states that "My Blue Heaven" was a song he loved to play, but wasn't allowed to record because, "Nobody wants to hear you play that stuff." Apparently he was almost prevented from recording "They're Red Hot" for the same reason.

There's a story of Elvis jamming backstage with either Scotty Moore or James Burton and Scotty (or James) said, "Why don't you do that on stage?" Elvis said, "Nobody comes to the show to see me play the guitar."

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30 Jul 15 - 12:51 PM (#3727242)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

yes, i too play stuff for a living, but one thing i never do is sing a song i do not like,
tuesday night, i was asked for fields of athenry, i just do not know it, but everyone had a great night there was solo dancing, set dancing, singing playing but not that song, and people still had a good   time, without that song.
i bet, josh never sang a song he did not like.

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30 Jul 15 - 09:58 PM (#3727315)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"probably saw his music more than anyone else" No, Josh did not probably see Lemon's music more than anyone else.

I agree with you that positivity is good, but I think perspective is too.

Peronally I don't dispute the notion that Josh genuinely liked "One Meatball" -- but in honesty I've heard multiple better "One Meatball"s, so...

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30 Jul 15 - 11:24 PM (#3727332)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

well all i can say Dick is - have a go at singing songs you don't like. you often discover virtues you didn't realise existed! that's my experience. the whole Irish thing opened up for me when the thene pub made it possible for me to swap the rickenbacker for an acoustic guitar. i always loved acoustic guitar - but there was no possibility of making a living with one up til then - not for my generation. the same with country music really. i was afolkie - always disdainful of Nashville, til i won a competition singing a country song and that gave me my professional music career - or at least gave me the impetus.

I was very interested in Lemon. but he seems to have led a shadowy existence. the biographical material is really there in his songs - nobody much seems to have written much about him.

fellow mudcatter Elmore and i had a go finding out about Lemon but we hit a brick wall. the stuff that's written about him is very insubstantial. one of the few places i've found a solid recollection of the man is Elijah Wood's biography of Josh. his childhood memories of Lemon are very vivid and convincing. that's why i said i thought he knew more about him and his music than most. Also Josh has this intensity with blues. Lemon is intense - so intense that he doesn't seem to notice what's around him - whereas with Josh its all about the audience. nevertheless - he SO knows what the blues is about.

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31 Jul 15 - 12:53 PM (#3727410)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

Al, I disagree,I cannot sing a song I do not like, what is the point?there are plenty of songs I like, now does Carthy ever sing a song he does not like?, does Wizz jones?did Gerry Lockran?

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31 Jul 15 - 01:18 PM (#3727413)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

the difference is that those named artists had nearly twenty years when the folk movement was on the front foot. loads of folk clubs, folksongs in the record charts - the scene was burgeoning.

after the traddies had done their revisionist work. the folk world has been shrinking. i put it to Carthy one time, there was a civil war and you lot won. he agreed.

i've been a jobbing musician. so was robert johnson, so was broonzy - so was Josh White.

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01 Aug 15 - 10:13 AM (#3727592)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

refresh

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01 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM (#3727614)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Mike Yates

Depends what you mean, Joseph, by " real, authentic blues ". "Authentic" is a term long discussed by folklorists/anthropologists/ historians etc.

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01 Aug 15 - 01:34 PM (#3727636)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: The Sandman

but as a jobbing musician you can still pick popular songs but just the ones you like.

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01 Aug 15 - 05:04 PM (#3727659)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

Well, whatever's "accepted by many as real, authentic blues" today (quoting Tunesmith) is whatever's accepted by many as real, authentic blues today, whether they know much about blues or not.

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01 Aug 15 - 08:07 PM (#3727697)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

thats another aspect of course.

you may not like a song - but you might dicoversomething in it that suits your technique.

take Ernie Tubb's Wild side of Life. Thanks to status Quo - its an R and B standard.

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02 Aug 15 - 05:51 AM (#3727771)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Thanks to who??????

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02 Aug 15 - 06:04 AM (#3727777)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

status quo...doubt if anyone in England except the most died in woo country fans would know it otherwise.

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02 Aug 15 - 06:08 AM (#3727779)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

status quo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKLp9RGulyY

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02 Aug 15 - 08:36 AM (#3727798)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

While I've often heard "The Wild Side Of Life" in many versions, that's the first time I've ever heard it (or anything else) done by Status Quo. Most folks with an interest in roots music have heard this song. It's a standard.

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02 Aug 15 - 01:00 PM (#3727828)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

. . . and the same tune is used for the response, "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky-Tonk Angels" and also "I Am Thinking Tonight Of My Blue Eyes" and "The Great Speckled Bird".

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02 Aug 15 - 01:11 PM (#3727830)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

The Wild Side of Life was written by A A Carter & W Williams. It was a big hit for Hank Thompson in 1952. Not being a hard core country fan I didn't know that Tubb recorded it. Did he?

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02 Aug 15 - 02:20 PM (#3727841)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

So Status Quo never had any hits in America...?

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02 Aug 15 - 06:41 PM (#3727885)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

one of my first gigs in country music was one of the support acts to Kitty Wells, who was touring the UK country clubs.

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02 Aug 15 - 08:31 PM (#3727903)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

I'm from Canada, but I don't listen to "top forty radio". I must admit that I'd never heard of Status Quo.

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03 Aug 15 - 01:19 AM (#3727926)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: meself

More importantly - WHO died in woo?

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03 Aug 15 - 09:51 PM (#3728073)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

Status Quo are one of those weird cases where they aren't very known in the U.S. despite huge U.K. success.

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03 Aug 15 - 09:53 PM (#3728075)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

Kind of similar to Slade, Cliff Richard, The Jam.

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03 Aug 15 - 10:00 PM (#3728077)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

And Sweet. "Pictures Of Matchstick Men," "The Ballroom Blitz," and "We Don't Talk Anymore" get played in the U.S. some and that's about it.

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03 Aug 15 - 10:30 PM (#3728082)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

Cliff Richard was quite well known in Canada, but a different era than Status Quo.

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03 Aug 15 - 10:39 PM (#3728084)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: PHJim

Although I had never heard of Status Quo, I've met folks who had never heard of Norman Blake, Nat King Cole, Todd Snider, Gabor Szabo, Oscar Brown Jr., Hayes Carll, Nina Simone or John Herald. It just depends on the genre of music you're drawn to. I did listen to the Status Quo video that Big Al posted, but I doubt I'll ever listen to them again.

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04 Aug 15 - 07:41 AM (#3728116)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

The USA definitely is missing anything with Status Quo!
Probably their most popular number is John Fogerty's " Rockin' All Over the World".
AND, to make matters worse, Status Quo are a lot better known in the UK than John.

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04 Aug 15 - 09:51 AM (#3728131)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

Quo have - been enormously influential in England. and musically round the world their effect has been profound. you've probably been influenced by Quo without knowing it.

i have no great liking for them. politically we are estranged. they were heroes of th flag waving Thatcherite years. however i respect them and their achievements and musicality. any guitarist who has had a go at teaching what they do will know that they are no fools.

their big champions in folk music are the English folk rock bands who borrowed the Quo sound. compare and contrast Steeleye Span's Oh the Hard Times of Old England with Quo's Whatever You Want.

their earthiness seemed like a link from punk and skiffle to heavy metal and was often compared favourably to the corporate stateside heavy metal sound. they are much loved. they have heavy metal cred and showbiz/music biz acceptance.

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04 Aug 15 - 01:10 PM (#3728165)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Status Quo are not good enough to be listed in the UK's top 100 bands.
Average is the word that comes to mind.

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04 Aug 15 - 01:38 PM (#3728171)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

interesting! which list is that ?

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04 Aug 15 - 04:12 PM (#3728205)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Big Al ,just out of interest, where would you place Status Quo?
Top 10? Top 20? Top 50?

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04 Aug 15 - 04:51 PM (#3728215)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

well like I say more musical than most groups. a lot of talent there. I saw John Coughlan do a gig with that Eric Bell who did the original riff for whisky in the jar - thin Lizzy with Noel Redding - ex Jimi Hendrix experience. a year or two before they all snuffed it.

Rick Parfitt the tory is loathsome - can't get over that. but as a musician - yes I rate him. more to the point, as a guitarist , I rate him highly.

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05 Aug 15 - 09:44 PM (#3728496)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"the UK's top 100 bands"

I'll bite:

1. Kinks
2. Led Zeppelin
3. Beatles
4. Queen
5. Steeleye Span
6. Big Audio Dynamite
7. Roxy Music
8. Gang Of Four
9. Deep Purple
10. Electric Light Orchestra
11. Fairport Convention
12. Smiths
13. Pink Floyd
14. Pretty Things
15. Kaleidoscope
16. Who
17. Rolling Stones
18. Yes
19. Traffic
20. Dire Straits
21. King Crimson
22. Clash
23. Supertramp
24. Procol Harum
25. Public Image Ltd.
26. Nice
27. Joy Division
28. Foghat
29. Japan
30. Cream
31. XTC
32. Wings
33. Zombies
34. T. Rex
35. Mott The Hoople
36. Depeche Mode
37. Police
38. Hollies
39. Ten Years After
40. Animals
41. Belle And Sebastian
42. 10CC
43. Creation
44. Sex Pistols
45. Dexys Midnight Runners
46. Beat
47. O.M.D.
48. Pogues
49. Pentangle
50. Searchers
51. Troggs
52. Fine Young Cannibals
53. Dream Academy
54. Dantalion's Chariot
55. Wire
56. Mirage
57. Modern English
58. Whitesnake
59. Big Country
60. Velvet Frogs
61. Soft Machine
62. Smoke
63. Yardbirds
64. Accent
65. Idle Race
66. Small Faces
67. Genesis
68. Outlaws
69. Free
70. Spooky Tooth
71. Moody Blues
72. Gentle Giant
73. Duran Duran
74. Caravan
75. Black Sabbath
76. Hawkwind
77. Emerson, Lake, and Palmer
78. Spandau Ballet
79. Dead Or Alive
80. Radiohead
81. Fotheringay
82. Verve
83. Stealers Wheel
84. Cure
85. Fleetwood Mac
86. Strawbs
87. Jethro Tull
88. Generation X
89. Proclaimers
90. Be Bop Deluxe
91. Art Of Noise
92. Tomorrow
93. Blind Faith
94. Humble Pie
95. Groundhogs
96. Move
97. Bad Company
98. Juicy Lucy
99. Badfinger
100. Barclay James Harvest

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05 Aug 15 - 10:49 PM (#3728503)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Janie

Had never heard of Status Quo. Have learned a lot from the thread, but you guys are losing me now. Help me connect the dots between Josh White and Status Quo?

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06 Aug 15 - 01:15 AM (#3728517)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

i agree we're drifting. i was commenting on the way a song can be transformed into somthing else, and gave the example of Quo's version of Wild Side of Life, which is the version most English people know.

quite a few people on the list are footnotes to the English scene, Quo are seminal English rock - headlining all the biggest venues, and hundreds of hit records and compilations. a massive contribution, and a massive career. with Wild Side of Life - they almost redefined the song. Quite a few American country songs have begone the same way - notably Dave Dudley's Six Days on the Road. In England - that's rock!

Josh on the other hand is almost the other end of the scale. his entire approach is trying to humanise and bring the music to the audience. i simply didn't understand that wild African sound of American folk music that is so evident in say Leadbelly and Robert Johnson, when i first heard it in the early 1960's. Josh, i could understand straightaway.

Josh given the circumstances of his birth and upbringing must have been steeped in the traditions of the folk music. he must have felt great affinity with the Leadbelly's and Johnsons.

Compare and contrast say with an artist like Gillian Welch or Martin Carthy who seem intent on ethnicising their work by adding little strangenesses - giving the music , a context by stylistic means.

]Somehow I can imagine Josh in so many English settings. I was listening to His eye is on the Sparrow - that would have been so great with Chris Barbers Jazz Band.

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06 Aug 15 - 03:47 AM (#3728533)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

I know what you mean about Leadbelly, Al - I was hooked on him the very first time I heard "Grasshoppers In My Pillow" (aka "Leaving Blues") on an album of his stuff released in the UK around 1960 or so.

This particular set of things was, as I recall, recorded under the auspices of the Library of Congress. As well as Leadbelly's voice and guitar, he was accompanied on a few tracks by a dulceola player called Paul Mason Howard (the dulceola being a zither with a keyboard) and it was their duetting on "Ella Speed" which also set the blood zinging through the veins.

At his "wild African sound" wildest, I was intrigued by his rough and ready bar room boogie piano playing on "Eagle Rock Rag" - rough as guts but absolutely electrifying. Which is why, by comparison, Josh White sounded very tame to me.

Then along came Howling Wolf - but that's another story!

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06 Aug 15 - 04:12 AM (#3728534)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: MGM·Lion

"the UK's top 100 bands" I'll bite:
.,,.,.
Bit of an eclectically post-50s list. What about Geraldo, Ambrose, Harry Roy, Carroll Gibbons, Henry Hall, Jack Nathan?...

And define "band". Royal Marines? Grenadier Guards {"British Grenadiers", "The Old Grenadier"}? Coldstream {"Non piu andrai" from Figaro}? Scots Guards {"Ho-ro, my nutbrown maiden"}? Royal Army Service Corps [I still delight at the memory of marching to "Wait For The Wagon" in Aldershot in 1951!]?.........

(National Service was a nuisance and a bore, but there are always compensations; if you have never marched to a band on parade you have missed out on one of life's great pleasures...)

≈M≈

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06 Aug 15 - 06:06 AM (#3728540)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Jim Carroll

"to a band on parade you have missed out on one of life's great pleasures."
Hmmm!!
The first time we went to Greece we stayed on the Island of Poros on the Peloponnese
Just off the main Island was a rocky outcrop which housed a Marine Training College, and on the first morning we were woken by the incredibly discordant sounds of a military cadet band which sounded as if they were tuning up - this 'tuning up' lasted for the two weeks of our stay; it went on throughout the day, and even took place in small boats which sailed up and down between the island and the rock to the accompaniment of practicing musicians.
Apparently, it was the practice of the Greek Navy to send their musical failures to the College in a last-ditch attempt to make musicians out of them; when that didn't work, they were shipped out and another group of musical failures were shipped in in their place.
Don't know if the participants regarded it as "one of life's great pleasures", but it very nearly put us off Greece altogether.
JIm Carroll

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06 Aug 15 - 07:14 AM (#3728546)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

When I think about Leadbelly's African roots - I always think of a track called Fiddlers Dram. I always think it sounds like something out of a Tarzan film.

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06 Aug 15 - 10:43 AM (#3728589)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: meself

Leadbelly: Fiddler's Dram

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06 Aug 15 - 10:48 AM (#3728590)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: meself

Leadbelly Eagle Rock Rag

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06 Aug 15 - 11:37 AM (#3728594)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Mike Yates

Maybe its me - but I just cannot imagine Leadbelly's "Fiddlers Dram" in any Tarzan film! And as to " if you have never marched to a band on parade you have missed out on one of life's great pleasures" - Again I am at a loss what to say. Obviously MGM has a very odd sense of pleasure!

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06 Aug 15 - 12:38 PM (#3728603)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Will, the Leadbelly album which you mention with Paul Mason Howard was my first Leadbelly album a 10" disc on the Capitol label "Classics in Jazz" series issued in the U.K by E.M.I. The sleeve states Howard on Zither. My cousin bought the Eagle Rock Rag 78, mind blowing stuff at that time.

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06 Aug 15 - 01:51 PM (#3728613)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

I had the same album, Hoot. I was fascinated by Howard's dulceola playing.

Wiki article on the dulceola

Getty image of Leadbelly & Howard

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06 Aug 15 - 03:52 PM (#3728628)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: MGM·Lion

"Obviously MGM has a very odd sense of pleasure!"

.,,.

"One half of the world cannot understand the pleasures of the other."
    Jane Austen, Emma

Always the right word from good old Jane, Mike.

≈M≈

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06 Aug 15 - 07:34 PM (#3728654)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"Bit of an eclectically post-50s list." I wish I could say the U.K. had counterparts to Louis Armstrong, Benny Goodman, etc., but nope.

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06 Aug 15 - 11:09 PM (#3728674)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Gerry

Back to the Status Quo thread drift --- they have turned Whatever You Want into a jingle for an Australian supermarket chain, which jingle gets played incessantly on TV here. I will *not* link to it (but if you must hear it, just type status quo commercial into Google, it's sure to come up).

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07 Aug 15 - 01:38 PM (#3728788)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

no we didn't have the equivalent of leadbelly, blind lemon, josh white, brownie mcghee, or lightning hopkins.

however we did have lonnie donnegan, gerry lockran....we still have Kevin Brown, Wizz Jones. we have artists of great ability who have made valid contributions to field of acoustic blues guitar.

also there some damn good musicians like Tubby Hayes and Stan Tracey who had no trouble playing alongside American jazzmen.

i wonder if any of you remember a tv series jazz 625 where Tacey backed Wes Montgomery and other greats. Also in the 60's pianist Lennie Felix had a radio series where he played a set with whoever was gigging Ronnie Scotts that week. Iwrote to the BBC and asked if they'd kept the tapes - no reply. no one knew what i was talking about. a common experience as you get old.

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07 Aug 15 - 02:22 PM (#3728798)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Al, you have sort of brought the threadrift back into line. On at least one visit here Josh White recorded with some of Hayes and Tracey's cohorts on the modern jazz scene I can't remember the names of the participants but believe Phil Seaman was the drummer. A friend of mine obtained an unissued test pressing 78 of Josh at this session doing a bawdy version of I believe it was Dark Town Strutter's Ball.

Re Jazz 625 I was led to believe that all those tapes were wiped/re-used including an Otis Spann programme but it seems a few did survive as I later saw and recorded T-Bone Walker backed up by a group of modern jazz players. I have a vague idea that a Champion Jack Dupree programme might have survived too.

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07 Aug 15 - 06:26 PM (#3728836)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

the ones that stood out in my memory were Ben Webster and Wes. also Jimmy Witherspoon with Lenny Felix.

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08 Aug 15 - 01:39 PM (#3728968)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott

"as if they never existed" Bands that don't make my top 100 existed.

Buddy Featherstonhaugh, George Shearing, and Victor Feldman were good.

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09 Aug 15 - 02:38 PM (#3729194)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

refresh.

I've decided to put some effort into this body of work. Frankly its much more influential in the folk club music of England than a lot of so called traditional music.

Its importance and beauty should never be lost to memory. It's techniques underpins every guitar toting folksinger in the UK.

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10 Aug 15 - 08:34 AM (#3729338)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: MGM·Lion

"Bands that don't make my top 100 existed."
.,,.

& you expect us all to accept your top-ton list as definitive, eh Mr Scott?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!

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10 Aug 15 - 08:36 AM (#3729339)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

Buddy Featherstonhaugh, - a relative of his died a few weeks ago, living in our village. unusual name.

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10 Aug 15 - 09:14 AM (#3729349)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Will Fly

Pronounced "Fanshaw"?

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10 Aug 15 - 12:00 PM (#3729381)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

I suspect that Mr Scott is really a Gilbert and Sullivan fan. He appears to have lots of little lists.

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10 Aug 15 - 12:16 PM (#3729386)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Larry The Radio Guy

Back to Josh White.......yes I did see him live a couple times at The Jubilee Auditorium in Edmonton, Alberta.   I have vague memories of it.....no doubt he put on a great performance.   I suspect, however, my enjoyment was later tarnished by my own 'arrogance' of judging his music as not *real* blues.......but he was more like a folksinger.

The truth, of course, is that he was a masterful guitarist, a singer who could really communicate the meaning of the song, and an all round terrific performer.

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11 Aug 15 - 11:19 AM (#3729602)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

The first knpck out technique - that seems to have gone out of use in England is that upstroke.

Now flamenco guitarist use that upstroke -= an index swept across the strings from the first to the sixth. I've seen English folksinger/guitarist in No Fixed abode use it. in both cases as a dramatic flourish - but listen to Josh. He follows the index finger rapidly with the third finger - and he gets this rumpty tum sort of rhythm that drives the song along.

That technique - could be used by someone in English folksong. think of Martin Simpson doing Creeping Jame or the the late Tony Rose doing Thorneymoor Park. that would incorporate nicely.

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13 Aug 15 - 03:35 PM (#3730106)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

refresh

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13 Aug 15 - 03:35 PM (#3730107)
Subject: RE: Josh White
From: Big Al Whittle

refresh

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