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BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS

30 Nov 15 - 02:28 PM (#3754698)
Subject: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

I have to say that I really don't know what to think.

I can see it from both sides in some ways. Whilst I disagreed with a great deal of what he said, I wish Fred McCormick was here...

30 Nov 15 - 02:36 PM (#3754700)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

It's a problem. It seems to me that a self-declared theocracy (and, worse, one that has the fundamental tenets of Islam badly wrong) is a bigger danger to the world than the entrenchment of a Russian client state in the Middle East, so on balance I'd favour working with Putin to remove Daesh, even if that also removes other opposition to Assad.

To my mind the problem is how to achieve that goal. Raining bombs did not work in Vietnam. Boots on the ground and the creation of an even more failed state area has gone badly wrong in Afghanistan Iraq and Libya.

So history teaches that a military "solution" will fail.

Is the best bet to keep pumping fleshly propaganda for a secular (and better still atheistic) political model in the best forms to reach the smartphones that now seem universal?

30 Nov 15 - 02:48 PM (#3754706)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich

i read the other day that bombing would be like - imagine there is a mass brawl in the car park of a pub while 12 people who don't like each other throw in huge fireworks in an attempt to calm the situation down.

however, in syria -a large circle of UN troops should surround the conflict area. just behind them are nurses, doctors, therapists, musicians, artists, cooks and teachers with the engineers and builders etc. and no priests or politicians

30 Nov 15 - 03:02 PM (#3754710)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

I was one of the 75% who responded to the survey against bombing.

30 Nov 15 - 03:07 PM (#3754712)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

As was I. But I admit to having to spend a long time thinking about it, since it seemed to be about picking the least bad out of awful alternatives

30 Nov 15 - 03:19 PM (#3754715)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Possible solution - errect the biggest sound system ever assembled and blast the daeshos with recordings of Bob Davenport - I guarantee surrender within 24 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

30 Nov 15 - 03:52 PM (#3754719)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Help Turkey close it's borders to ISIS volunteers
Stop the supply of arms to ISIS
Help cut the funding that ISIS are getting
Support moderates in the area.

Bombing has been a proven failure which cannot target the right people and only creates more radicalisation where it has happened.

All that being said, I think a free vote for all parties, where the individual MPs can vote with their conscience rather that their party, is the right way to go in the circumstances.

30 Nov 15 - 04:06 PM (#3754722)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,#

'So history teaches that a military "solution" will fail.'

What history teaches is that this type of military solution fails. Unless allied countries are prepared to send soldiers who in turn are told to take no prisoners and willing to carry out that order, the second way is diplomacy of a less violent nature. That will likely fail unless some country is prepared to offer up a pile of land for the Daesh fighters to live in. The third option is to ignore them and I doubt that will work because they hate being ignored. Helluva puzzle.

30 Nov 15 - 04:42 PM (#3754726)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

To quote Kipling on your land idea (though it was gold in his poem):


It is always a temptation
To a rich and lazy nation
To puff and look important and to say
Though we know we should defeat you
We have not the time to meet you
We will therefore give you cash to go away.

"And that is called 'Paying the Dane-geld',
But we've proved it again and again
That if once you have paid him the Dane-geld
You never get rid of the Dane"


No, I'm afraid the historical precedents for that approach are not good either. As you say. Hellova puzzle.

30 Nov 15 - 04:53 PM (#3754728)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

"where the individual MPs can vote with their conscience rather that their party".........Shurely shome mishtake Ed.   this is the Labour Party you are talking about, some of the people who took us into Iraq are still there.
The whole thing is a shambles, a recipe for disaster, there is already to many countries bombing without proper co- operation.

We should support Putin and Assad, I agree with Richard.
A Grand Coalition is required.

The US government are still demanding that Assad must go.....who do they think they are?   Democrats?

30 Nov 15 - 04:59 PM (#3754729)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich

grand coalition - like the united nations.

30 Nov 15 - 05:15 PM (#3754735)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

one that has the fundamental tenets of Islam badly wrong

ISIS, in fact, apply the teachings of the Quran and the Hadiths, as codified in Islamic jurisprudence to the letter (which is, of course, the problem). Arguing that ISIS isn't "Islamic" in a normative sense is false and misleading.

30 Nov 15 - 05:30 PM (#3754740)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

No, guest of 0515, you are totally wrong. Series after series of Islamic scholars have lined up to explain why Daesh are unislamic and your assertions about the Koran are wrong.

I am worried however that Akenhateon agrees with me. I may have to reconsider.

The situation about a "free vote" seems to be confused. I last heard anything pretty directly from the House of Commons at about 1400 UK time and it is now 2230. Even then statements from Labour party spokespeople were inconsistent. I think the situation then was that Labour shadow cabinet members were freed from ministerial responsibility so they could speak in favour of bombing, and even vote in favour of it, without being thereby obliged to resign or be sacked from the shadow cabinet. They and all other Labour MPs were still however under a 3-line whip to vote against bombing.

The consequence of failure to observe ministerial responsibility is loss of the ministerial post (and if one is in government the extra salary that goes with it).

I ought perhaps to re-check but I think the only consequence of defying a 3 - line whip may be that the whip may be withdrawn. This does not require the MP to take the Chiltern Hundreds (resign as MP) but would normally mean that the MP could not at the next election stand as representative of the party whose whip he or she defied - so possibly losing their seat.

If anybody has accurate and definite more up-to-date news it would be appreciated.

30 Nov 15 - 07:00 PM (#3754749)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Stilly River Sage

If it looks like a troll and writes like a troll - you should ignore it.

30 Nov 15 - 07:41 PM (#3754753)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

Gnome's magic wand suggestions are no solution at all:

1: Help Turkey close it's borders to ISIS volunteers

Any indication at all from Erdogan that they want the border closed? NO
Turkey joined the coalition against IS and then promptly started bombing Kurdish Peshmerga positions.
Turkey is one of IS's main customers for their smuggled oil.

2: "Stop the supply of arms to ISIS"

With what they have taken from Iraqi and Syrian Army arsenals I do not think IS at the moment have any weapons supply problems.

3: Help cut the funding that ISIS are getting

IS are considered to be the richest terrorist group in the world, the territory they hold generates income for them so the only real way to cut their funding is to shift them out of the territory that they control. Their major source of income was from oil but airstrikes on oil related targets have significantly reduced this stream of income.
Support moderates in the area - so much for bombing having been proven a failure.

4: Support moderates in the area

Easier said than done - the time to have done this was months ago but Parliament rejected the idea. Whatever happens now will be too little, too late. The Kurds will be helped but they will only clear IS from Kurdish areas apart from in Iraq where they might try to regain control of Mosul.

When action against IS with the US supplying advisers and air power Obama stated quite clearly that it would take time - putting boots on the ground in any significant numbers will be counterproductive - better the Arabs do this moderately well than us going in and doing it perfectly (To paraphrase T.E.Lawrence)

Only real game in town is to back Putin and Assad, the refugees we've got until something happens to Assad, they won't be going back home while that man is in power.

01 Dec 15 - 03:34 AM (#3754793)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket

So a couple of years ago, Cameron asked parliament for support in kicking Assad out. Now he wants support for kicking opposition to Assad. (Throwing in with Russia is tantamount to exactly that.)

No wonder those politicians who think before they vote are between a rock and a hard place. Military intelligence cannot be trusted to help form a view and the only certainty is that this isn't a leadership cult. You can kill every leader and cell in ISIS and it will take all of a couple of years to get them replaced by the ideology that you can't fight with toy soldiers. In fact, bombing them merely acts as a recruiting sergeant for the next lot. Plenty of fertile hiring fairs around too, after the West's interference to date in Middle East and Africa.

Me? I'd turn the tap off to Saudi Arabia. We speak of the intelligence they give us to help crush extremists but ignore their promotion of the cancer it is spawned from.

They use their right and left hands for different purposes if you hadn't noticed.

01 Dec 15 - 03:48 AM (#3754795)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The notion that Putin is more interested in supporting Assad than destroying ISIS is laughable.

After Isis has been pushed back or hopefully eliminated, Assad will be re-elected with a huge majority.
Russia is arguably the prime target for Islamic terrorism and no nonsense Putin is the man to deal with it......unconstrained by "liberal" niceties.


If we have sense we will give up our cold war posture and assist....that can open many doors to many other types of co-operation......Power has shifted in the last ten years, time to realise it.

01 Dec 15 - 04:00 AM (#3754798)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

It gets better.

I might just nominate it for Private Eye's "Pseuds Corner"

01 Dec 15 - 04:45 AM (#3754803)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,LynnH

IS/Daesh is, first and foremost, an internal islamic problem, and possibly an arab problem as well. Saudi Arabia's Wahabi strain of Sunni Islam is positively liberal compared to the daesh interpretation of the Koran. Al-Baghdadi, the Daesh 'guru' is on record as calling for the destruction of, firstly, the saudi royal family and secondly, the destruction of all Shia Moslems. Only then would it be the turn of 'the infidels'. Daesh is a Sunni organisation with former members of Saddam Hussein's general staff running the military side of the operation and they would love nothing better than the US et al sending in ground troops. Besides illegal oil sales, bank robberies, protection rackets and kidnappings, financial support apparently also comes from rich saudis who consider Saudi Arabia too liberal.

Air strikes, from whoever, will not defeat Daesh, indeed, the collateral damage is no doubt, for them, a marvellous recruiting campaign. It seems to me that 'the west' is indulging in knee-jerk actionism with no concept at all of a coherent strategy and tenable solutions. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.........Iraq 2.0(?)

@Akenaton (01.12.2015, 03:48) That, of course, is why Putin is so busy bombing various syrian rebel groups, supporting the syrian army against the rebels and undertaking next to nothing against IS.

01 Dec 15 - 04:45 AM (#3754804)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Gnome's magic wand suggestions are no solution at all

No magic wand suggested or even hinted at teribums. Taking a line from your mate's book, did you make that up?

01 Dec 15 - 04:59 AM (#3754810)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,LynnH

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/debate-syria-missing-syrians-151130060932842.html

01 Dec 15 - 05:05 AM (#3754811)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Lynn, You are correct in stating that air strikes alone will not defeat ISIS and Putin is conducting strikes against anti Assad terrorists, to free up Assad's troops for the battle to push back and eliminate ISIS

The so called "moderate" rebels are far from moderate and are an impediment to the conduct of the ground war.
Without Assad there would be no ground defence against the spread of ISIS. If the West had its way Assad would have been blown to pieces by now and Syria would be in the same state as Libya.

You seem to have a good grasp of the Syrian situation, surely you don't think that a "liberal Democratic" government could survive in that environment.

01 Dec 15 - 05:09 AM (#3754812)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

It depends what you mean by "an Islamic problem". Most Islamic scholars are united that Da'esh has got its views on Islam badly wrong.

01 Dec 15 - 05:18 AM (#3754816)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan

If you've got a few minutes to spare, watch this.
Robertr Fisk - How ISIS threatens the world

I think that it's a very good analysis.

01 Dec 15 - 06:42 AM (#3754834)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket

Those opposing Assad are now terrorists according to Comrade Akenaton.

Funnily enough, his confusion and warmongering attitude doesn't put him in the tiny minority camp as it does on other subjects.

That's what's really worrying.

If Corbyn really does want to be led by constituent opinion on all matters, he may find his own views somewhat compromised. There are more armchair warriors out there than he thinks.

01 Dec 15 - 07:19 AM (#3754852)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The people who compromise Mr Corbyn's views are the majority of the shadow cabinet and the other career politicians still skulking under the Labour banner.
"liberalism" is no longer relevant; in either political or social terms......time is on OUR side.

01 Dec 15 - 08:38 AM (#3754877)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

Which side, Akenhateon, is "OUR side"? Your support for Terribilis makes it clear that you are not on the side of the ordinary people in the UK.

01 Dec 15 - 09:21 AM (#3754888)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Mr T and I approach problems from different ends of the political spectrum, but at least one thing we share, is the ability to recognise the bloody problem in the first place.

All I ask from people in debate is honesty, something which the "liberal" left treat with utter contempt.

Teribus does not suffer fools or charlatans....he has my respect.

01 Dec 15 - 09:43 AM (#3754894)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

If you want honesty in debate, why refer to any view other than your own as "liberal" as a sneering contempt?

Not that you are the only shallow poorly educated fool.

The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism. The stupidity of the person above in saying "Muslims will take over" is typical of the support some prats give to terrorists.

01 Dec 15 - 09:59 AM (#3754898)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Musket

Wot he said

01 Dec 15 - 11:26 AM (#3754924)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I never sneer, but why do I treat many "liberal" left views with contempt?.......
"The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism.".......shite like that for a start!

01 Dec 15 - 01:29 PM (#3754943)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Luckily, there are almost 60 million people in The UK who have very different views to you.

In fact, up in Scotland there is a political party whose members value equality above all else. If they are really members, that is.

Sick puppy

01 Dec 15 - 02:42 PM (#3754958)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

"The vast majority of people in The UK value honesty, equality, fair play and pragmatism.".......shite like that for a start!

Obviously measuring everyone else by his own standards. I find that most people in the UK do uphold these values. It is only complete knobheads who do not. Or who say that other people do not.

01 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM (#3754962)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Tut tut. Don't blame the puppy for shitting on the carpet.

Mudcat is obviously inclusive and equal opportunity ridden, so make allowances when the little people and their prejudice is portrayed. If he doesn't think he is embarrassing he obviously isn't embarrassed. It's bliss apparently.

01 Dec 15 - 03:07 PM (#3754963)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The vast majority of people in the UK, cant afford "honesty", have never seen or understand what equality or fair play REALLY means.

"pragmatism".......now I know your fucking joking!

Where do you people actually live? have you ever BEEN in a housing scheme?

01 Dec 15 - 03:09 PM (#3754964)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

I admire Corbyn's calm polite patience and perseverance under openly hostile interrogation from BBC political interviewers..

Though he looked fairly tired and on the edge of telling that woman grilling him today
to eff off if she can't just listen to and understand what he is explaining,
and stop interrupting his answers with confrontational biased loaded questions..... 😣

01 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM (#3754967)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Anybody see Hillary Benn on CH 4 news?    Snow asked him if he wasn't just positioning himself to take over the leadership....he nearly shit himself! JUDAS!!

01 Dec 15 - 03:16 PM (#3754968)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

"pragmatism".......now I know your fucking joking!

Where do you people actually live? have you ever BEEN in a housing scheme?

Have you ever looked up what pragmatism means? I thought I knew but, to be on the safe side, I looked it up as well. For the life of me I still can't imagine what the fuck it has got to do with housing schemes.

I suppose we should allow for senility and having fallen off roofs a few times, but some village appears to be missing it's idiot.

01 Dec 15 - 03:22 PM (#3754971)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Pragmatism involves choice.....the people I'm talking about simply don't have a choice, of any description.

01 Dec 15 - 04:26 PM (#3754981)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I know that I have only a basic education, but I also know that "its" does not have an apostrophe.

01 Dec 15 - 04:34 PM (#3754982)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

Actually, for a while I collected rent in the housing estate that had the highest murder rate in the south of England. So yes, Akenhateon, I do know a bit about housing schemes.

01 Dec 15 - 04:43 PM (#3754988)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I agree about the biased interviewing PFR.

01 Dec 15 - 04:51 PM (#3754991)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, it should not have an apostrophe. I apologise. If that is the sum of your argument I think you may have a problem. Idiot.

01 Dec 15 - 04:53 PM (#3754992)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Richard, where is this "housing estate"....Sevenoaks?

Up in Scotland, that's the sort of job they give to convicted child molesters!

01 Dec 15 - 05:03 PM (#3754995)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker

Earlier in the day, The BBC news room had 2 weasel labour MPs in the studio to rip into Ken Livingstone and demand his resignation
while Ken was stood out shivering in the cold somewhere outside..

He defeated them on every accusation and point raised
yet they were still encouraged by the BBC presenter to attack him like ravenous hyenas intent on the kill... 😠

01 Dec 15 - 05:19 PM (#3755000)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Yes PFR....That must be the "honesty, equality and fair play" that the troll was on about. :0)

01 Dec 15 - 08:42 PM (#3755040)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

Akenhateon - to your racism add ignorance. There are areas fringing Sevenoaks where the child poverty rate has recently been estimated as 34% against the national average of 18%. But in fact the relevant area I worked in was near Gravesend. It and parts of Medway are in the North Kent black spot, and not at all nice leafy suburbs.

01 Dec 15 - 08:48 PM (#3755043)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

PFR - sadly the BBC is no so terrorised by Scumoron that it does his bidding. The once great and independent institution is no more.

02 Dec 15 - 03:17 AM (#3755077)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

One minute he reckons he lives in a nice lochside village and has had an idyllic Miss Marple fantasy styled existence, the next he rattles on about "housing schemes." Other than ensuring the roof leaks in the rain, what does he know?

More importantly, other than sit there agreeing with the resident Tory Terribulus on every point the fool makes, what suggestions does he have? He may as well spout them because his posts never get deleted unlike those decrying him. He just compared Richard Bridge to a child molester but his post remains. Why is that?

(Suggestions by him? Other than sneer at the very idea of equal opportunity, equal rights for all and sundry confused nonsense about his support for right wing republican extremists in The USA. The thread on Palin and Trump is weird enough but this confused old man actually likes them both..)

Meanwhile, Cameron has told would be rebel Tory MPs that they shouldn't walk through the lobby supporting a terrorist sympathiser. So much for debating whether the military can find answers to a mindset problem.

02 Dec 15 - 03:50 AM (#3755086)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

In electing Corbyn to be leader of the Labour Party the 150,000 "party members", many pitching in their £3 just to vote but having no real interest in the Party itself, the nation found itself with a political figure who it would appear will never under any circumstances do anything to defend this country, a political figure who for reasons best known to himself will always side with those who would do the population of this country harm - I think that is what Akenaton is referring to when he quite rightly rounds down on "liberal" left views and condemns them. As he obviously has no interest in looking after our nations best interest or the security of its population it is little wonder that he is subjected to "hostile" questioning.

02 Dec 15 - 03:59 AM (#3755088)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Teribus, that is a pathetic slur. Corbyn's interest is in the safety and well-being of the people of this country. He just differs from you in how to achieve this. Having read his reasoning in the Guardian today, and listened to Cameron's deception in the commons, and his pathetic slur yesterday, would feel better and much safer in a country led by Corbyn than by Cameron.

02 Dec 15 - 04:13 AM (#3755092)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan

I've got to agree with Dave.

What good is bombing? When the known centres of ISIS have all been obliterated, they will still be there. Spread out amongst the ordinary people, still operational, still doing their worst. What will we bomb then?

Give me Corbyn's approach any day.

02 Dec 15 - 04:47 AM (#3755097)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Cameron has been sitting down for talks with the King of Saudi Arabia, this remember is a country which still uses crucifixion as a form of punishment. During these talks it is hard to imaging that the words "oil", "pipeline" and "Syria" did not arise. Cameron meanwhile claims that there are 70,000 "moderate" Syrian rebel fighters active. To get anywhere near this number (and I suspect that even then you don't) this has to include al-Nusra, who eat the livers of their defeated foes live on TV, and the Turkomen group who shoot up pilots parachuting from planes. These are Cameron's supposed allies. Who is the terrorist sympathiser now? My suspicion is that under the pretext of fighting ISIS, Cameron is still pursuing his regime change agenda at the behest of the Sunni monarchies, and, as always, oil money is the driver.

02 Dec 15 - 05:02 AM (#3755101)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Also, of course, if these "70,000" do defeat ISIS we can expect them to immediately splinter and start fighting each other, which isn't a promising way of stopping a civil war.

02 Dec 15 - 04:22 PM (#3755213)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

Ah so we should pin our hopes on the Peace Talks in Vienna?? What Peace Talks? Who is ISIL's representative? (Rhetorical question ISIL are not present at these talks) Who is the Syrian Governments representative? (Rhetorical question the Syrian Government has no representation at these talks) Who represents the opposition to Assad's Government at these talks? (Rhetorical question those who oppose Assad's regime in Syria are not present at these talks)

Did Corbyn give you any hint as to how you can have meaningful peace talks when none of the combatants are present? Dave? Kampervan?

His line would appear that it is perfectly OK for the RAF to bomb ISIL in Iraq but not in Syria where those who would attack us here receive their training - ludicrous. ISIL/ISIS/IS/Daesh whatever you want to call them have no respect for any borders particularly not those separating Iraq and Syria - neither should we. Corbyn's take on things is something akin to someone trying to establish a non-pissing end in a swimming pool.

Long and short of it is that Corbyn just wants us to sit back and wait for the terrorists to attack - then they will be praised for the commitment they show to their cause by Ken Livingston.

02 Dec 15 - 05:23 PM (#3755222)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Thank you Hilary Benn, what a masterful and sensible speaker.

02 Dec 15 - 06:07 PM (#3755230)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan

Hilary

I was a great admirer of your father. I don't think he would have endorsed what you said in parliament today.

02 Dec 15 - 06:08 PM (#3755231)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well, had those Labour two-time losers managed to get one of their candidates elected leader, we would not have had the passionate debate in the country that has done much to raise public angst about this difficult matter. Kudos to Jeremy Corbyn, always doomed to lose this vote, for providing effective opposition to the misguided notion that we can somehow bomb a disparate and diffuse enemy out of existence. Some time in the next few weeks there may be an accidental strike that kills as many innocent people as were killed in Paris. Of course, a Syrian civilian life isn't worth the same as that of a westerner, eh?

02 Dec 15 - 06:32 PM (#3755234)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

ISIL finally showing the strain of coalition attacks: More taxes, shuttered hospitals, pay cuts for jihadis

02 Dec 15 - 06:40 PM (#3755236)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo

Steve I sometimes wonder if you are really as lost on another planet as you appear to be ? All lives have value, don't assume that most of us think otherwise. You ought not to be so bloody patronizing.

02 Dec 15 - 06:46 PM (#3755238)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Projection is a form of defense in which unwanted feelings are displaced onto another person, where they then appear as a threat from the external world. A common form of projection occurs when an individual, threatened by his own angry feelings, accuses another of harbouring hostile thoughts.

02 Dec 15 - 06:54 PM (#3755241)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

I fail to see what I said that was patronising. It seems to me that when you're not ignoring my posts you're trying to find some way of attacking, no matter how outlandish. I expressed my opinion there without recourse to attacking anyone else. Feel free to demur. Why don't you just get that bee out of your bonnet? That was just a troll post.

02 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM (#3755244)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo

I don't have a bee in my bonnet. I just find you patronizing and arrogant.

02 Dec 15 - 07:25 PM (#3755251)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

I'd love you or anyone else to tell me what was arrogant or patronising about my 06:08 post. Whilst I don't wish to be patronising, I'd suggest that you seem to have something of a problem that you could do with getting seen to.

02 Dec 15 - 07:30 PM (#3755253)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo

No , I am perfectly fine thank you , just low tolerance for rrogance. Yes, I know you don't see it , which is my point. So let us let it lay there, shall we.

02 Dec 15 - 07:32 PM (#3755254)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

On the thread title:

1: Corbyn lost the vote
2: The Labour Party is seriously fractured
3: ISIS in Syria are just about to find themselves on the receiving end of targeted strikes by the RAF - The first mission has just taken off from RAF Akrotiri.

02 Dec 15 - 07:53 PM (#3755259)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,💥🔥

1: Corbyn did not positively persuade as many Labour MPs as he would have prefered.
2: The Labour Party conducts genuine debate on important issues openly
without the autocratic secrecy and coercion that the tories rely on internally within their party.
3: ISIS in Syria are just about to find themselves on the receiving end of targeted strikes by the RAF - The first mission has just taken off from RAF Akrotiri.

02 Dec 15 - 07:57 PM (#3755261)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well I agree with one and two. How could I not? But on three, well we've been here before. Smart bombs. Ultra-accurate targeting. Amazing intelligence. All of which is why three hundred Palestinian kids were atomised last time Israel attacked Gaza for just a few weeks. You can walk across Gaza in three hours. Syria is not the same. We're insane, aren't we?

02 Dec 15 - 07:59 PM (#3755263)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

That was meant for Teribus, though it sort of fits with your post too.

02 Dec 15 - 08:17 PM (#3755272)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

Over 1,600 missions flown by the RAF against IS targets weapons released on only 382 of those - indicates a certain degree of restraint.

In Gaza Hamas hid in schools, hospitals, UN Aid Centres and from those positions attacked Israel and the IDF - under those circumstances if somebody shoots at you and continues to shoot at you - you shoot back.

02 Dec 15 - 08:39 PM (#3755278)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well let's not start that again. Suffice to say that the first casualty of war is...

03 Dec 15 - 02:43 AM (#3755322)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Yeah let's invite Israel to the party. Schools and hospitals are their speciality.

Come to think about it, if we capture any ISIS "soldiers" we can always turn them over to their paymasters cum our allies Saudi Arabia for ritual crucifixion.

Whilst not happy at the outcome, the parliamentary debate yesterday was s step towards democracy in our democratic system where we saw arguments for and against followed by a vote where some MPs from both parties made their decision based on what they heard.

Of course, the disgraceful behaviour of the prime minister was a stain on a system we should be proud of. Calling opposition to his view "terrorist sympathy" is bad enough but coming from a criminal who authorised the assassination of UK citizens and then boasted about it....

You don't beat terrorists by sinking to their level.

03 Dec 15 - 02:57 AM (#3755324)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

"Well let's not start that again." - Which begs the obvious question - if that is the case why bring it up?

03 Dec 15 - 02:59 AM (#3755326)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Shimrod

So Cameron has got his 'Churchillian' moment! Hurrah!

Apart from that, he hasn't got any sort of coherent plan but, gosh, he's now got lots of opportunities to talk tough and look determined and heroic! Perhaps pictures of him in a headscarf will appear in the Sun under the headline, "Gotcha!!"

And, of course, when the whole sorry mess disintegrates into complete chaos he'll get away with it (although lots of innocent non-combatants in Syria and the UK won't). I suppose there's a faint chance that, about 40 years down the line, some latter-day Chilcott will reveal what an utterly clueless, opportunistic, cynical prat he is but he probably won't care by then.

03 Dec 15 - 02:59 AM (#3755327)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

I spent a lot of time - and I mean about six hours! - listening to the debate. It was, I would say, the best I have heard from Parliament with many people clearly having to tried to think it through carefully. But very soon key phrases and ideas started popping up which immediately said how people would be voting even before they had declared. One was that the speaker rejected the claim that this would make UK more of a target, because we were already a prime target. Which is clearly nonsense because it is the kind of thing you can always have more of. There were, it seems, seven threats against the UK prevented last year. With more people committed to it, it could be seventeen, or seventy. And obviously the larger the number the greater the chance one gets through. So could this action persuade Daesh to dedicate more planners to attacking the UK? Clearly it could.

Oddly enough the best reason to think it might not came from a reporter in Damascus who said there had not been a mention of the upcoming British vote in any of the papers and no-one she spoke knew there was a vote. It suggests a level of indifference from the Syrian viewpoint which is at odds with our self-importance.

03 Dec 15 - 03:15 AM (#3755332)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

"And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt. They hold our democracy, the means by which we will make our decision tonight, in contempt. And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists and trade unionists and others joined the International Brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco. It's why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice. And my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for the motion tonight." Hilary Benn 2015-12-02

03 Dec 15 - 03:26 AM (#3755335)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Max Hastings on Newsnight said that Hillary Benn's speech was all passion and little argument. And that quotation is a good example: full of passion and determination. Which is no bad thing.

Except that no-one in the house on any side disagreed with him, apart for that last couple of sentences. The question was not on whether to fight Daesh but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities more than it increases their ability to use this propaganda to recruit even more disaffected people world-wide.

03 Dec 15 - 04:19 AM (#3755340)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well said.

03 Dec 15 - 05:11 AM (#3755351)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Kampervan

We've been trying to impose our will on the middle east since the 11th Century and all we've managed to do is to alienate them. Lasting change only comes from within, it cannot be imposed.

03 Dec 15 - 07:43 AM (#3755368)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Well said DMcG.   I also thought Benn's speech was short on facts and brim full of emotional rhetoric.

Of course this had nothing to do with saving lives and everything to do with Mr Benn's bid to save the Labour Party from socialism under his leadership.
The whole sorry mess is about constructing a political coalition to oppose Russia and the Assad regime when the time comes.

Its Iraq and Libya all over again.....how fucking stupid are we to continually vote for this circus....the weeping mp's, the crocodile tears, the rhetoric straight out of some bloody TV soap opera.

Will we ever grow up and realise what the bastards are doing to us?

03 Dec 15 - 08:16 AM (#3755373)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Us?

The day I feel empathy with some of the confused hatred you come out with is the day I see my lips together.

03 Dec 15 - 08:59 AM (#3755379)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities

Run that one past General Curtis LeMay.....

03 Dec 15 - 09:04 AM (#3755381)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Richard Bridge

Oh dear. I have to agree with Akenhateon - just this once. But then I also agree (just this once) with John McCain that the UK contribution is but a token.

03 Dec 15 - 09:35 AM (#3755392)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

but whether bombing will succeed in reducing their capabilities

It already has.

03 Dec 15 - 10:29 AM (#3755402)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

You must read the whole sentence, guest. Of course a bomb can do damage. The sentence talked about whether that damage was enough to outweigh any propaganda value, and that we don't know.

03 Dec 15 - 10:48 AM (#3755405)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

"One was that the speaker rejected the claim that this would make UK more of a target, because we were already a prime target. Which is clearly nonsense because it is the kind of thing you can always have more of. There were, it seems, seven threats against the UK prevented last year. With more people committed to it, it could be seventeen, or seventy."

The UK and the USA have been regarded as being prime targets since 1970 - nothing to do with Afghanistan and nothing to do with Iraq. That is the reality and the threat intensified as various Arab States learned to live with their neighbours and Arafat started feeling the cold. We "the west" were regarded as being an easy target, our legal system, our concern for humanity, our tolerance and respect for the rights of the individual are all seen as being major weaknesses.

The prevention of seven attacks with none actually blossoming into fruition means that the attacks planned were all thwarted. Follow Corbyn's lead and we leave them alone to get on with their planning and training and we may yet have our own 9/11 scale attack. Cameron has taken the other option, attack them and harry them, give them something to think about - make them nervously peer over their shoulders and sneak looks round corners as they will not know where the next blow might fall - far better to have your enemy do that than hand him the initiative to strike as and when he wants.


"So could this action persuade Daesh to dedicate more planners to attacking the UK? Clearly it could.

Not if we are bombing the hell out of their training camps.

"Oddly enough the best reason to think it might not came from a reporter in Damascus who said there had not been a mention of the upcoming British vote in any of the papers and no-one she spoke knew there was a vote. It suggests a level of indifference from the Syrian viewpoint which is at odds with our self-importance."

Depends on whether or not one is naive enough to believe that a free press exists in Assad's capital city that would be permitted to print or report news from round the world uncensored.

03 Dec 15 - 11:08 AM (#3755410)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

I did reply point by point, Teribus, but thought better of it. We will let everyone form their own view.

03 Dec 15 - 11:28 AM (#3755416)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

Not if we are bombing the hell out of their training camps

One word, T-Bird: Vietnam.

03 Dec 15 - 11:45 AM (#3755422)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Stu

"them alone to get on with their planning and training and we may yet have our own 9/11 scale attack."

They could be anywhere though, they're probably not sitting planning their next outrage from inside Syria or Iraq but in one of our cities. After all, they're not so stupid as to wait to get bombed even if our politicians are stupid enough to think they are.

03 Dec 15 - 12:32 PM (#3755433)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

One Sentance Explanation of what caused ISIS

03 Dec 15 - 12:36 PM (#3755434)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Remind me. Is Assad a terrorist leader of a rogue state still, or is he a key ally and link in ensuring our oil thirst remains sated?

03 Dec 15 - 01:27 PM (#3755446)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Democracy at work. Our elected representatives have made their decision and regardless of what we think of it, this it what happens. I still believe a free vote was the right thing to do and that the MPs have voted with their consciences. I really do hope they are right and that it does work but I have reservations. Can anyone explain how it will work this time when it never has before? What will be different between this bombing campaign and those elsewhere in the middle east?

03 Dec 15 - 01:37 PM (#3755449)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

We'll let Teribus answer that, he has more expertise in these matters than everyone put together.

03 Dec 15 - 03:43 PM (#3755479)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo

This cannot be explained in one sentence. It is simple minded to think that it can be.

03 Dec 15 - 03:51 PM (#3755485)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

Didja read the link, Hi, or are ya just shootin' from the lip?

03 Dec 15 - 03:55 PM (#3755487)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

The link is one man's opinion which is worth about as much as yours.

03 Dec 15 - 05:17 PM (#3755505)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,HiLo

I read the link,it cannot be explained so easily.

03 Dec 15 - 05:22 PM (#3755506)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

What exactly in the link - statemant and discussion thereof - do you disagree with, Hi?

03 Dec 15 - 05:23 PM (#3755507)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

100

04 Dec 15 - 05:30 AM (#3755605)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

David Cameron said this morning, "It won't be long until me see results of our actions" Was he talking about in the UK ? Poke a dog with a stick and see what happens.

04 Dec 15 - 06:04 AM (#3755610)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

The link to me fails to take sufficient account of the longstanding divisions in the Islamic world, between Shia and Sunni, and various subdivisions.

04 Dec 15 - 06:08 AM (#3755611)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

As Cameron has declared he doesn't want another term as PM,
what job is he actually angling for next with this demonstration of macho tory war mongering ?

04 Dec 15 - 06:24 AM (#3755612)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

I'm with Dave the G: What is decided is decided, and there's not a lot in the short term to do but hope for the best and monitor things. But I have to say I have smelt a very strong whiff of propaganda already.

04 Dec 15 - 08:29 AM (#3755629)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

There are a group of Blairites who are trying to undermine Mr Corbyn
They do not belong in a Labour Party which elected Mr Corbyn with a record mandate. These people are a "third column" in the Labour Party and Mr Corbyn is wrong to expect them to change.
The Blairites are ambitious career politicians who see their hopes of personal advancement and their seat on the gravy train scuppered.

If they are unwilling to remove themselves. they will cause severe damage to the new style of politics which Mr Corbyn is promoting and if they win we shall find ourselves back in the tired old circus and the wealth gap will keep growing.

04 Dec 15 - 10:09 AM (#3755647)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well that's right. And they're arrogant enough to have forgotten that they managed to lost us two elections in a row. They've probably lost us the next one already.

04 Dec 15 - 10:48 AM (#3755656)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

The link to me fails to take sufficient account of the longstanding divisions in the Islamic world, between Shia and Sunni, and various subdivisions.

He doesn't cover Darius, Sennacherib or Tiglathpileser either, Dave, but as far as the more recent history, its a pretty good summation.

04 Dec 15 - 11:46 AM (#3755675)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

As far as I know Darius, Sennacherib and Tiglathpileser aren't currently bombing markets in each other's cities.

04 Dec 15 - 11:51 AM (#3755680)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Keith A of Hertford

IS is a Sunni cult and the vast majority of its victims were Shia Muslims.
The war in Syria is essentially a continuation of the Sunni/Shia conflict that began centuries ago and for which the West is entirely blameless.

04 Dec 15 - 11:56 AM (#3755682)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Funny. I thought the Labour MPs were elected by their constituents.

Perhaps they should do as they are told by their leader? There used to be a backbencher who put his own views before the party whip. Corbyn I believe his name was. Good job he never stood for leader because how could he demand the support he never bothered giving himself?

Oh..

04 Dec 15 - 12:29 PM (#3755696)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

That is not the point. Of course MPs are rugged individualists but they also need to keep an eye on the main prize, which is kicking out the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn is already being attacked gleefully by everyone except us party members. What the Blair/Brownites are doing is disastrous. Four and a half years down the road, the Tories will be reminding us with great joy how Labour tore themselves asunder in 2015. It needed a lot less than that last time, a stupid note left on a desk five years earlier, remember? As I said, the Blair/Brownites lost us two elections in a row. I reckon even Teribus would agree with that. What makes them think that the current undermining of Corbyn could even remotely be a winning strategy is anyone's guess. They don't know HOW to win, remember?

04 Dec 15 - 01:10 PM (#3755701)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Jeremy Corbyn has a speech mannerism that could prove fatal: he is very fond of the construct 'I believe X because of y'. Which is great, we need people to have reasons for what they say. But what happens is the media drop the rationale and pump up the first bit and bingo, we have a Jeremy who is against shooting to kill terrorists (not one who is unhappy because of the escalation it can easily bring). And a Jeremy who regrets bin laden was shot, not someone who thinks it would have been better if he is brought to trial.

The damage for those has been done, and will as you say come up in the next election. But he really does have to find a way of phrasing the same thing which is not so easily turned against him.

04 Dec 15 - 02:17 PM (#3755718)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

I doubt very much whether he will be the leader in 2020. Whether he is or he isn't, this in-fighting instigated by people who can't accept that they've lost is fatal. All the time this is happening we have slimy little swines like Grant Shapps and that utter twat who's in charge of the NHS and that bloody idiot who used to be Justice Secretary (who's made even Gove look sensible for Christ's sake) managing to avoid the the flak that they so fully deserve. It would be funny if it wasn't so bloody tragic. And I like Jeremy. At least he's not a smooth-talking politico automaton who's been trained on spin and bugger all else.

04 Dec 15 - 02:22 PM (#3755721)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Corbyn is no party leader, look at the man, he looks like someone living on the streets, he says he has principles yet old film footage shows him as an unrepentant red. Now he is going back on every value he once held. The Labour party will remove him soon enough.

David is doing a grand job and the bombing is necessary to defend UK interests throughout the world.

I support ground troops going in and dealing with these terrorists, if the terrorists get support among civilians, then yes collateral damage is acceptable.

David has the support and the will to deal with terrorists. The British public has spoken and spoken loudly.

An intense campaign is the only language these terrorists understand.

04 Dec 15 - 02:32 PM (#3755724)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well we can all be grateful that you're not in charge of anything, can't we, Mr Anonymous. Brave fighting talk from an internet coward. Ironic, eh?

04 Dec 15 - 02:38 PM (#3755725)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,achmelvich

steve, i don't think 'Guest' (or anyone) really believes this shite. he is just trying to wind up people who prefer to think about these issues a bit more carefully.

04 Dec 15 - 02:38 PM (#3755726)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Grant Shapps used to be my MP and I was invited to one of his fund raising dinners. Some mistake, surely...

04 Dec 15 - 03:23 PM (#3755735)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

As I said, the British public spoke through their elected representatives and the democratic process was followed and the vote was YES. Why can't you accept this ? The British public want a bombing campaign, I know I am jolly well pleased to see it.

04 Dec 15 - 03:33 PM (#3755737)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

I'm fucking not and I too seem to be anonymous guest.

04 Dec 15 - 03:41 PM (#3755740)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Voting in the Tories and accepting a bombing campaign are not the same thing. There was no talk of a bombing campaign in the Tory manifesto. Last I heard, the country was roughly evenly divided on the issue. However, never let me place facts in the way of your fantasies.

04 Dec 15 - 03:56 PM (#3755744)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

The vote was YES the campaign is underway and David is a sterling leader. Job done.

04 Dec 15 - 03:56 PM (#3755745)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

The vote was YES the campaign is underway and David is a sterling leader. Job done.

04 Dec 15 - 04:14 PM (#3755749)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Job done? Are you sure you didn't mean mission accomplished?

04 Dec 15 - 04:22 PM (#3755754)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Oh, you guys.....you're soooo cutting......lol.

04 Dec 15 - 04:38 PM (#3755757)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Guest, if by David you mean Cameron, he is a total loser, and with him at the helm we can expect the black flag to be flying over Downing Street within six months.

04 Dec 15 - 04:45 PM (#3755759)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

If you chaps you are Labour party supporters I respect that. I on the other hand am not. I support Conservative policies, I support the bombing of terrorists, I support welfare reform (If estate dwellers want flat screen televisions and six packs of lager, make them jolly well work to obtain them). I support financiers and talented senior management being rewarded and I wish you to acknowledge we won the election !

04 Dec 15 - 06:31 PM (#3755768)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

"We"?

04 Dec 15 - 07:35 PM (#3755777)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Conservative members of parliament, standing candidates, party members, electioneers and the rest of the team, yes we acknowledge all participants.A collective unity Shaw, Unity is something Labour knows very little about so I understand your need to question.

05 Dec 15 - 01:17 AM (#3755806)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Pity Unity Mitford isn't still around. She be right in there with that ragbag lot.

05 Dec 15 - 03:51 AM (#3755817)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Unity. All sat in eager anticipation of the communal pig's head..

🐷🍆

05 Dec 15 - 05:32 AM (#3755832)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Corbyn/Abbott white feather!!!

05 Dec 15 - 06:25 AM (#3755842)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

What was it Guest said? Oh yes: Oh, you guys.....you're soooo cutting......lol.

05 Dec 15 - 06:49 AM (#3755847)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The problem is, that they will win no matter what we do.
All we can do is attempt a holding operation, as someone said "you cant bomb an ideology".
That is why we must be pragmatic, stop fighting amongst ourselves, jockeying for short term political advantage.
Russia has offered full support to a UN led coalition but we are knocking it back because of our stupid(or self serving)ideology.

They say we cannot join forces with a man who was killing his own people. He was fighting a brutal, fanatical armed insurgency, in the only way possible.....with everything at his disposal.

We are unwilling to supply ground troops, the so called FSA is untrustworthy.....we need to work out a strategy and that strategy must include Russia Iran and Assad.....We must unite against this brutal monster ISIS.....if only to gain a few more decades.

05 Dec 15 - 07:56 AM (#3755857)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"you cant bomb an ideology"

But you can bomb those who are putting the ideology to practice.

05 Dec 15 - 09:19 AM (#3755871)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

But you can bomb those who are putting the ideology to practice.

One word: Vietnam.

05 Dec 15 - 09:40 AM (#3755877)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Three words: apples and oranges.

05 Dec 15 - 09:46 AM (#3755881)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

Two words: How so?

05 Dec 15 - 10:14 AM (#3755887)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

I'll let you work that out, think on it a bit, it shouldn't be too difficult, even for you.

05 Dec 15 - 11:28 AM (#3755907)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Let's assume it is too difficult for me. I think greg's analogy is valid. Please explain where we are going wrong.

05 Dec 15 - 11:49 AM (#3755914)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I think I may have been clumsy; the analogy does work in the sense that you can attempt to rid the world of an ideology by bombing those who adhere to that ideology, but often the attempt is counter productive as the adherents become more entrenched in their beliefs, become inspired by their grief and hardships.....as in Vietnam.
Most Jihad is welcome death.

Sheer numbers are the problem, the followers of Islam overwhelmingly outnumber secularist and Christians combined.

05 Dec 15 - 11:51 AM (#3755915)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

a white feather to corbyn & abbott

05 Dec 15 - 12:14 PM (#3755922)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

It's not about "white feathers", it's about International Politics.
politicians may be devious and self serving, but they are not stupid.

Cameron and the Blairites know very well that our engagement will make no material difference to the situation in Syria and certainly will not make us safer at home. It is about constructing an alternative coalition to ensure that Russia and Iran do not end up as major powers in the area.

We cannot afford to play games with these Jihadi lunatics, we must support Assad against all opposition, create one united coalition which can push them right out of Syria and Iraq. This is what Mr Corbyn was suggesting.

Co operation on this issue may lead to a bit of realism returning to International Politics.

05 Dec 15 - 01:17 PM (#3755928)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

What sickens me is

"The followers of Islam overwhelmingly outnumber...."

Such dangerous, crass, ill informed hatred has no place in a public arena. To try to put people of a faith in the same pot as those who use a faith as an excuse for their very secular ends shows the extent to which ignorance and discrimination feeds the terrorist agenda.

Equating being a Muslim with being a terrorist is exactly what the terrorists want feeble minded grunts to think. Well displayed above.

Oh and Corbyn is not supporting Assad or any other win by force faction. He specifically speaks of elections to a restored Syria, which is not the aim of either Assad or Putin.

05 Dec 15 - 01:32 PM (#3755933)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

The only thing that Corbyn is supporting is the white feather brigade!

05 Dec 15 - 02:31 PM (#3755940)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

To try to put people of a faith in the same pot as those who use a faith as an excuse for their very secular ends shows the extent to which ignorance and discrimination feeds the terrorist agenda.

Hence the several attempted discussions - now closed - about "Christian Terrorism" - some people just don't get it.

05 Dec 15 - 02:52 PM (#3755942)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

What on earth are you on about Bonzo3legs? Thats about as puerile and meaningless a contribution as it is possible to imagine.

Akenaton, again I think that your comment about the numbers of the "followers of Islam" fails to take sufficient account of the sharp divisions within the Islamic world.

05 Dec 15 - 03:01 PM (#3755943)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Actually Bonzo3legs, I was too kind. According to you, Corbyn is a "member of the white feather brigade". The corollary according to you then is that the likes of Cameron and Hilary Benn are not. To show the brown-skinned people that they are not cowards, they are going to drop bombs on them from 30,000 feet. Actually because they are big strong Members of Parliament they are not going to do that, they are just going to order other people to do it for them.

05 Dec 15 - 04:00 PM (#3755954)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

dum de dum de dum - you know nothing.

05 Dec 15 - 05:30 PM (#3755967)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Oh come on if I can ignore the troll surely you can.
I'm no racist, I was simply contrasting the numbers of Muslims with the numbers of secularists and Christians......How can anyone think that I believe all Muslims are terrorists.

Although there are many different factions Dave, converts to the Muslim faith and family sizes contrasted with the decline of religion in the West will ensure a huge Muslim majority in the future.
Its a numbers game and when the majority demand their "rights", we will be up shit creek......Chop Chop.

05 Dec 15 - 05:31 PM (#3755968)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Greg F.

Muslim Terrorists, eh? Google "Syosset weapons cache".

05 Dec 15 - 05:50 PM (#3755974)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"I'm no racist"

Up there with "read my lips" except we were dismayed by Tricky Dicky on the basis that he had intelligence. I suppose the lack in this case is mitigation.

By the way. To state that being a Muslim does not make you a terrorist is not being a troll. You disgusting little creep

05 Dec 15 - 06:01 PM (#3755980)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Sleep on this - SAS units have surely been in under cover in Syria for many months gathering intelligence, that's how it works. Nothing can be done without intelligence. white feather corbyn obviously chooses to ignore this!!!

05 Dec 15 - 07:39 PM (#3755995)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Of course being a Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist and stating that does not make you a troll.....you were born a troll and a stalker......must be genetic.   :0)

06 Dec 15 - 03:10 AM (#3756047)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

And Chelsea lost again yesterday!!!

06 Dec 15 - 03:43 AM (#3756052)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Akenaton,

If being a Muslim doesn't make you a terrorist, the what is this phrase all about:

"Its a numbers game and when the majority demand their "rights", we will be up shit creek......Chop Chop."

(From: akenaton Date: 05 Dec 15 - 05:30 PM )

06 Dec 15 - 04:25 AM (#3756054)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Someone tell him that being gay isn't in accord with the teaching of the prophet and he will automatically become more tolerant of peaceful law abiding Muslims in our society.

06 Dec 15 - 04:25 AM (#3756055)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Well Dave, it was meant as tongue in cheek, but I suppose the future is difficult to determine, the introduction of Sharia Law and the political status of Islam are distinct possibilities.

Stating these possibilities as the religious balance shifts, is not racism or bigotry it is reasonable debate.

06 Dec 15 - 04:40 AM (#3756058)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

I was reminded of this discussion from 2008. I wonder if it is still being considered:


Prince Charles to be known as Defender of Faith

By Andrew Pierce

10:44PM GMT 13 Nov 2008



The Prince of Wales, who is 60 today, is planning a symbolic change when he becomes King by taking the title Defender of Faith to reflect Britain's multicultural society.

The move would mean the monarch, as Supreme Governor of the Church of England, would no longer be known as Defender of the Faith for the first time since the reign of Henry VIII.

The Prince caused controversy within the Anglican church when he floated the idea several years ago of becoming Defender of the Faiths in an attempt to embrace the other religions in Britain.

In a compromise he has now opted for Defender of Faith which he hopes will unite the different strands of society, and their beliefs, at his Coronation.

However, there would be huge obstacles to overcome before the Prince can fulfil his wish which he has discussed with some of his closest advisers. It would require Parliament to agree to amend the 1953 Royal Titles Act which came into law after changes were made for the Queen's Coronation in the same year. A senior source told The Daily Telegraph: "There have been lots of discussions. He would like to be known as the Defender of Faith which is a subtle but hugely symbolic shift."

The Monarch has been known by the title Defender of the Faith ever since the title was bestowed on Henry VIII by the Pope in 1521 for his early support for Roman Catholicism

A Clarence House spokesman said: "There has been work done on the accession planning as you would expect however there has been no planning of the Coronation or its contents." The Prince has been advised on the accession by Sir Stephen Lamport, his former Private Secretary, who was a senior civil servant.

Vernon Bogdanor, the constitutionalist who is Professor of Government at Oxford University, said: "In 1952, when the Queen came to the throne, it was very much an Anglican society. The Prince of Wales will become head of a nation which is multi-denominational.

"The Prince has said that he wants to be seen as a defender of all religious faiths and not just the Anglican church but the Coronation is an Anglican ceremony. Any change would require legislation."

Professor Bogdanor said that after the Coronation, which will take place at Westminster Abbey, it was plausible that a second service would be held for other denominations and faiths, such as the Muslims and Hindus. "It would be a way of the new King showing their importance in the country," said Prof Bogdanor.

06 Dec 15 - 04:51 AM (#3756060)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The policies of most political Parties change with great rapidity to adapt to circumstances....example, EU membership, Immigration policy etc.
The key is in the numbers....Islamic Political Parties are a possibility, as are Christian ones, but projected numbers are not in their favour.

06 Dec 15 - 05:06 AM (#3756062)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

One of the biggest problems is of course the policy of "multiculturalism"....in Glasgow we have a large Muslim population who simply do not integrate to any meaningful extent.
Inter-marriage is almost non existent and social integration is minimal. I am led to believe that this is replicated over much of England?.....perhaps I am wrong on that?

If it is indeed the case, we must work to assist integration, even if it means curtailing some of our own most outrageous social policies.

06 Dec 15 - 05:31 AM (#3756065)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

I should bloody coco

06 Dec 15 - 05:39 AM (#3756066)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

There reaches a point where you wonder if people actually research anything before brandishing ridiculous left-wing rhetoric or whether it just comes from an ideological standpoint based on nothing.

The amount of posts I read fear-mongering about all the dead civilians the bombing will cause is astounding given it is simply untrue. For a start, we aren't at war with Syria (if you can define Assad's regime as Syria), we are at war with Daesh, as we have been for over a year when we started bombing them in Iraq. Wednesday's vote changed very little. The bombs are aimed at hitting Daesh's supply lines and aren't just targeting random civilians. The last time I checked there aren't thousands of women and children chilling around in Daesh territory waiting to get bombed by the Western powers - and do you know why that is? Because most of them are fleeing Daesh's oppressive regime! No civilians are reported to have been killed in a year's worth of bombing of Daesh in Iraq. So please tell me where all these supposed bodies are coming from that are meant to be on Mr Cameron's conscience?

This vote won't magically cause Daesh to increase all their operations against the UK, the threat level has been, and remains at 'Severe' - i.e. an attack is highly likely. The concept that we ought to be looking at 'other strategies' is also naive, suggesting we aren't already doing so. I find it ironic that Joe Public think they know more than the UK Military Intelligence Divisions. The Prime Minister makes decisions based on intelligence given to him from the highest level, not because he wakes up in the morning thinking "hey let's go bomb Daesh in Syria today!"

06 Dec 15 - 06:14 AM (#3756071)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Discussing religious bigotry and the threats they involve is indeed worthwhile debate, but vilifying people based on their faith and what that faith is being abused for is as bigoted as that you decry.

Sharia law is something you may be interested in if you are a Muslim, but if you aren't you have no interest.

Well, apart from the parts of Sharia law we have adopted over the years, such as the work of ACAS. Arbitration is something we find useful. Sharia is used mainly for just that. Using superstition as a guide and a punishment for those subjected to it is where it falls down.

We have equality law rather than Sharia law. Those who dismiss equality are the danger to society. Stupid generalisations such as Muslims in Glasgow don't integrate are not only wrong, inaccurate and borne of ignorance, but considering the green and blue communities over the years, the sectarianism in the name of Christianity, what Glasgow single community is there to embrace incomers?

Pathetic

06 Dec 15 - 06:34 AM (#3756076)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"I find it ironic that Joe Public think they know more than the UK Military Intelligence Divisions."

Following Iraq and the WMD business Joe Public is likely to be skeptical of intelligence reports filtered by politicians.

06 Dec 15 - 07:28 AM (#3756081)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Well it would be very nice if BigEars found his faith-defending job so overwhelmingly time-consuming that he no could longer fit in silly pronouncements about homeopathy (thus propping up a whole army of charlatans), architecture and the environment. I'd be quite happy for him to stick to faith-defending, chatting to potted plants, letting poor people behind ropes in commonwealth countries wave cheap flags at him, enjoying his obnoxious family life and playing polo.

06 Dec 15 - 07:52 AM (#3756084)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Bonzo, seems to me that integration is the answer to the problem, at least in the UK. In some respects ordinary followers of the Islamic faith are not to be blamed for shying away from a society that they perhaps rightly see as debauched and "godless".

I think our social legislation has gone far beyond the realms of "equality" and I am not a member of any organised religion.

06 Dec 15 - 07:56 AM (#3756086)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

It's not as if we can live in isolation, these communities are here now and are set to expand considerably in the near future.

Legislating against "faith" does not seem to me, an option.

06 Dec 15 - 08:00 AM (#3756087)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Going beyond equality?

You are allowed to express your view, however much it makes respectable people reach for a bucket.

Equality obviously has a yin and yang attached to it. Still, we are but a number of memorial services from that remaining a problem.

06 Dec 15 - 08:39 AM (#3756091)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

We vote for MPs to take tough decisions on our behalf. Attacking them for doing so is idiotic, even if you don't like what they decide.

06 Dec 15 - 08:59 AM (#3756094)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: DMcG

Interesting thesis, Bonzo. So you don't thiink anyone should strongly criticise Obama, or Bush, or Blair, or Brown or your politician of choice depending on your persuasion?

Politics does not start and end at the elections.

06 Dec 15 - 12:21 PM (#3756131)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Critisism is fine, but what is going on now is not.

06 Dec 15 - 12:42 PM (#3756139)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

The meaning of representative democracy is you elect a representative, then he/she and Diane Abbott use their judgement to represent their constituency but are under no obligation to think or do as you want on any issue.

06 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM (#3756140)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Tough as it is to type this, Bozo has a point.

Although there is nothing wrong in criticising decisions they make. They are encouraged to compare their manifesto rhetoric with present thinking of their constituents.

"These communities are set to expand.."   Which communities fool? Those in Glasgow that you know nothing about? Leicester? Bradford? They are our communities if they expand. That they don't agree with your take on life is mere bonus.

06 Dec 15 - 12:56 PM (#3756149)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Bonzo, you make some good points in 5:39 pm , but the issue is not about the bombing of ISIS, I think everyone is in favour of that.
Its whether the bombing will be effective or not without Assad's ground troops being involved.

We seem to be unwilling to commit ourselves to the destruction of ISIS, the US have been bombing for over a year with no apparent success, simply because they have no follow up on the ground.

06 Dec 15 - 01:02 PM (#3756153)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

Well I really don't know what the answer is. I'm sure that we and the other powers do have specialist military out there on the ground as path finders gaining intelligence. What I do know is that the daeshos need to be biffed by all means possible.

06 Dec 15 - 01:15 PM (#3756158)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Just as a matter of interest, can any of our English members throw any light on the integration or non integration among Muslims in England.
I have a friend who lives in the Pakistani sector of Glasgow whom I visit regularly....she says that they are on the whole civil but very self orientated, there is almost no communication between her and her neighbours, she is an old lady of over eighty living on her own.

06 Dec 15 - 02:41 PM (#3756181)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Paul Burke

"the issue is not about the bombing of ISIS, I think everyone is in favour of that."

No one gives a feck (qv) about ISIS getting bombed. ISIS are perhaps 300000 out of 50 million. It's the other 49700000 getting bombed that upsets people.

06 Dec 15 - 03:04 PM (#3756191)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

can any of our English members throw any light on the integration or non integration among Muslims in England.

I work in Bradford where nearly a quarter of the population are Muslim. There is no issue with integration either at work or in the city. My Muslim friends are as English as anyone else in the country, including me and my half Polish family. There are a number of Muslin idiots. In fact, probably about a quarter of the idiots in Bradford are Muslims. Funny thing that...

Your 'friend', ake, although I doubt you actualy have any, is probably feeling isolated due to the lack of care in the community in general. It has nothing to do with her being in the 'Pakistani quarter'. You are twisting things to your own agenda. Again.

06 Dec 15 - 04:47 PM (#3756216)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I don't have "an agenda" regarding race. Any problems will be in the future after I am gone.
The request was made mainly regarding mixed religion relationships or marriage.    I seldom happens here, in fact I have never seen or heard of a Christian Muslim marriage.

BTW I never tell lies and certainly not on a debating forum.....what would be the point?

06 Dec 15 - 05:20 PM (#3756227)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

can any of our English members throw any light on the integration or non integration among Muslims in England.

Followed by

The request was made mainly regarding mixed religion relationships or marriage.

Pretty much sums up the type of debating you indulge in. Lies? Maybe not. Dishonest? Abso-fucking-lutely.

06 Dec 15 - 05:26 PM (#3756229)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

As to your shite about Christian/Muslim marriages. Try this. for starters.

Googling something is not really rocket science although, as it happens, I am friends to two couples of inter-faith relationships. One of the couple being gay.

06 Dec 15 - 05:26 PM (#3756231)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Perhaps you should travel down to Glasgow? Marriages between people of all faiths and none. Even the odd Catholic and Protestant.

Nothing to see here.

Like Dave the Gnome, I live in a real world where everybody works, lives and plays together. Today I was on a sponsored walk for a local health charity. From my team at work, out of six of us, four disappear for a short while for Friday prayers. After the walk, we all went to a local pub. That'll be four cokes and two pints.

Sick puppy

06 Dec 15 - 05:34 PM (#3756235)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"It goes without saying that the marriage of a Muslim woman to a non-Muslim man is one of the main taboo issues in debates on Islam.

According to a broad consensus religiously sterile, a Muslim woman is formally forbidden to marry a non-Muslim man regardless of his religion, while a Muslim man is allowed to get married to a non Muslim woman, mainly a Christian or a Jew, considered by the Islamic schools as "People of the Book"


What does the Qur'an say about the interfaith marriage?

06 Dec 15 - 05:58 PM (#3756245)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Perhaps you could also quote the white that the bible spouts as well, Guest. Or does that not fit in with an anti-Islam agenda?

06 Dec 15 - 06:25 PM (#3756256)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

It doesn't matter what any holy book says about anything, what matters is how the believers put into practice what is written therein. I think even you could figure that out.

Oh, and by the way, can one not be critical of any religion, which is nothing but a collection of ideas, or is your opprobrium reserved only for those who are critical of Islam?

06 Dec 15 - 07:05 PM (#3756267)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Thank you guest 5:34 pm.....very informative.
I was more interested in how common inter marriage was, for that is the only way proper integration can be achieved ......and it must be achieved or society will not survive.

Going to the pub together after does not comprise integration....it just makes the Muslims feel discriminated against , as they have buy beer and only get coke!! :0)

06 Dec 15 - 07:18 PM (#3756272)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

There are also many Catholic/Protestant marriages in this area.

07 Dec 15 - 03:57 AM (#3756330)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Quote from above

"how common inter marriage was, for that is the only way proper integration can be achieved ......and it must be achieved or society will not survive."

It's very common. in fact society survival statistics by your logic were given a boost when marriage between people of the same sex was thankfully recognised in law.

Integration can only be achieved where equality is promoted. Luckily, here in The UK, that is the case. It may be a shock to you and your blinkers but most people don't put their superstition above their love. It is just as possible to be a boutique Muslim as it is a boutique Christian. Or non practicing, culturally, heritage, labelled by others.

Identifying real people by their arbitrary label went out of fashion in the real world years years ago. It's just the preserve of newspapers, UKIP and terrorists now. It is demonstrated every day in every walk of life that you can keep your ingrained superstition and still get on in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how when people from other cultures are shunned, it is they who are then accused of not integrating.

07 Dec 15 - 04:14 AM (#3756332)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

I was of course referring to racial integration.

07 Dec 15 - 04:20 AM (#3756333)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

They used to say Corbyn was a man of principle, seems he relinquishes these by the day lol.

07 Dec 15 - 04:33 AM (#3756335)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"how common inter marriage was, for that is the only way proper integration can be achieved ......and it must be achieved or society will not survive."

That's complete nonsense. All over the world different communities live alongside one another, geographically or socially, with a little or a lot of blurring and the edges when personal relationships come into play.

Look at group of schoolkids from the cities out in the country for a school trip, DOE or whatever. Or just comming out of the school gates on a normally day. Faces of all colours in mixed grouped chatting together as they go along. Or many workplaces.

You are making stuff up.

07 Dec 15 - 04:41 AM (#3756336)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Bonzo3legs

I often see a veritable rainbow of children from an infants' school some 500 yards from where I work, walking hand in hand along the pavement having a whale of a time - of course they are integrated, it's their parents who probably are not!!!

However, quite why they need 12-15 adults for 25 children is beyond me.

07 Dec 15 - 05:20 AM (#3756340)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Akenaton, there are many people who go into a pub and only get a soft drink. Another such group are called Drivers.

07 Dec 15 - 05:21 AM (#3756341)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST,Dave

Serious question: can Muslims dring alcohol-free beer? I am not sure what is alcohol-free beer, I know that Kaliber is not.

07 Dec 15 - 05:50 AM (#3756345)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

can Muslims dring alcohol-free beer? That may depend on how strictly observant they are.

I have had Muslim colleagues who took their faith and community seriously but would have a half of beer when we went to the pub.

(ask your Catholic friends about condoms)

07 Dec 15 - 05:52 AM (#3756346)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Well I think bonzo is quite correct, children are unaffected by political or racial issues.....but children grow into adults and as I said earlier Muslims will at some point comprise the religious majority in the UK.
Some would say that we should have a completely secular society...that is simply impractical given the strength of the Muslim faith and complete secularism would add nothing to our society which is already on a downward moral spiral.

07 Dec 15 - 05:56 AM (#3756348)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

"as I said earlier Muslims will at some point comprise the religious majority in the UK."

So you think the more modern religion will prevail then?

07 Dec 15 - 06:05 AM (#3756351)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

"They used to say Corbyn was a man of principle..."

Care to tell us who precisely are these "they" who used to say it but no longer do?

07 Dec 15 - 06:18 AM (#3756355)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Simply a matter of mathematics guest.....birth rates.

Also Christianity is being attacked on all sides by "liberals", who see it as an impediment to their wrecking agenda.

Strangely they do seem to get rather aerated over any perceived abuse of Muslin "rights"

07 Dec 15 - 06:34 AM (#3756357)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

I do get rather 'aerated' over the abuse of human rights. Whether the human beings are Christian, Muslim, Male, Female, Black, White or even the occasional village idiot. Religion matters not one iota to a normal decent human being as they are all con tricks to separate people from their money and keep men in frocks in power.

07 Dec 15 - 06:37 AM (#3756359)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

The right to practice Christianity without being ridiculed?

07 Dec 15 - 06:40 AM (#3756361)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

The right to ridicule

07 Dec 15 - 06:53 AM (#3756362)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Teribus

"Religion matters not one iota to a normal decent human being"

Are you saying that those who follow the strict teachings of the Muslim faith are therefore NOT normal decent human beings Gnome?

As explained to me by a Muslim - it is not forbidden for a Muslim to drink alcohol - he is forbidden to pray if he has consumed alcohol.

07 Dec 15 - 06:58 AM (#3756364)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Steve Shaw

Not even allowed to pray for his wine to be turned into water when he sees the blue flashing light in the rear view mirror?

07 Dec 15 - 07:17 AM (#3756368)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

My Muslim colleague who had the occasional half could declare that Guinness did not contain alcohol with the same look in his eye as devout a Christian explaining the Trinity.

The twinkle came when he took a sip.

07 Dec 15 - 07:23 AM (#3756370)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Are you saying that those who follow the strict teachings of the Muslim faith are therefore NOT normal decent human beings Gnome?

Nope. That is you misinterpreting as usual but just to make it quite clear I will rephrase it. The religion of others does not matter one iota to decent human beings when they care for each other. I am sure that you and tweedledumber will still manage to twist it but as anyone with any sense will know what I mean, it does not matter what games you play.

07 Dec 15 - 08:50 AM (#3756387)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Keith A of Hertford

So are you now saying this, or did you not intend to post the last bit?

"The religion of others does not matter one iota to decent human beings when they care for each other being as they are all con tricks to separate people from their money and keep men in frocks in power."

07 Dec 15 - 08:54 AM (#3756390)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Keith A of Hertford

Also, what is wrong with men wearing frocks?

07 Dec 15 - 09:54 AM (#3756406)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Nothing wrong with men in frocks. Everything wrong with men in frocks who tell other people that they need to kill others of a different faith and give up what is good in this life for rewards in the next. To make it clear to even the most idiotic, men in frocks refers to religious leaders of most cults.

07 Dec 15 - 10:01 AM (#3756407)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Methinks he protests too much......could he be a tiny bit phobic? :0(

07 Dec 15 - 10:02 AM (#3756409)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW - Well done for pointing out exactly what I meant by playing games. I know anyone with any sense will have spotted your cut and paste of two separate quotes to come up with yet another meaning.

07 Dec 15 - 10:04 AM (#3756410)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

It could be, ake. Probably like your strange fixation with anal sex...

07 Dec 15 - 10:05 AM (#3756413)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: akenaton

Bushy beard, big hammer, work boots. DRESS??
Not a good look......bad fashion move! :0)

07 Dec 15 - 10:07 AM (#3756414)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Fashion - Something so awful they have to change it 4 times a year :-)

07 Dec 15 - 10:57 AM (#3756432)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
spotted your cut and paste of two separate quotes

No. You said that you had rephrased your statement, but instead you made an entirely different one!

First statement,
" Religion matters not one iota to a normal decent human being as they are all con tricks to separate people from their money and keep men in frocks in power."

"Rephrased" statement,
"The religion of others does not matter one iota to decent human beings when they care for each other. "

07 Dec 15 - 11:09 AM (#3756436)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Dave the Gnome

Exactly, Keith. The first was too complicated and I realised it addressed two different points. So I clarified it. The two statements are unrelated.

Statement 1. Decent people look after each other, regardless of what religion they are.

Statement 2. Religion is a con trick etc.

I am more than happy to admit when I make a mistake and it was a mistake to try and conflate the two ideas when I should have known that you would try to twist it in some way.

07 Dec 15 - 01:36 PM (#3756465)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Looks like Keith A of Herford is logic chopping again in order to make sky fairy adulation look intelligent. Members of the human race know what Dave the Gnome meant by men in frocks. Trying to take it out of context is desperate to say the least.

Teribus. So your Muslim mate and his take on life is that of all Muslims? That's like saying all Christians have pete from starry place's views and outlook. I find it rather disturbing how people can understand that the term Christian can mean anything from gullible nonsense believer to saying you are one because they told you do at school and you haven't thought about it since, yet try to label Muslims as a single thought process.

The breathtaking ignorance displayed on here is equalled only by the exhibited bigotry of the less intelligent to begin with. Akenaton saying that marriage is the key until he realised what he said, or Keith A of Hertford twisting what people say. Teribus having spoken to a Muslim apparently.

Still, without them, there'd be nothing worth debating because their little gems are all I ever look for. Reason and lucidity can be sooo boring.

07 Jan 16 - 11:52 AM (#3763531)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: GUEST

Those who hold to the belief that ISIS is a product of the West`s intervention in the Middle East might find this article of interest: The New York Times: How Saddam Hussein Gave Us ISIS

08 Jan 16 - 11:56 AM (#3763799)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn, Labour and ISIS
From: Thompson

If all arms sales to Islamic State were stopped, their invasions would be stopped more easily. But there's profit in selling guns and explosives and tanks and planes and cruelty.