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09 Dec 15 - 11:28 AM (#3757060) Subject: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Wys GF cookieless So.... enjoying my Kindle on a loaner fone I've come across the one question of the month I can't answer just by searching online and therefore have to actually ASK about.... "Trough of Bolland" (Lancashire). . Trough pronounced troff? . Bolland now Bowland? . It's in a moor area? . It's not a fell (last week new word), so if it's cleft as opposed to ridge, why isn't it a dale? . Is it a winding valley sort of thing or is it straight? Is there a satellite view or foto gallery I might see it in? My head hurts. I need a helicopter..... Thanks for any help, esp in US English! ;-) ~Susan |
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09 Dec 15 - 11:44 AM (#3757070) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,d |
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09 Dec 15 - 11:48 AM (#3757072) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Wys GF cookieless Here's the passage, from Round the Sofa (via Librivox): "... There has been a grand garden laid out in my days, on the southern slope near the house; but when I first knew the place, the kitchen-garden at the farm was the only piece of cultivated ground belonging to it. The deer used to come within sight of the drawing-room windows, and might have browsed quite close up to the house if they had not been too wild and shy. Starkey Manor-house itself stood on a projection or peninsula of high land, jutting out from the abrupt hills that form the sides of the Trough of Bolland. These hills were rocky and bleak enough towards their summit; lower down they were clothed with tangled copsewood and green depths of fern, out of which a gray giant of an ancient forest-tree would tower here and there, throwing up its ghastly white branches, as if in imprecation, to the sky.. .." This is from an middle-1700's perspective. |
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09 Dec 15 - 11:49 AM (#3757073) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,# "Trough of Bowland" Many sites will come up with pictures and words. |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM (#3757081) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke The minor road around 53.95649 N, 2.562218 W (use Google Maps or Earth) passes through the Trough of Bowland. Like everywhere in England, it's not a long way from civilisation in these days of motor transport, but if you're not wary sudden changes of weather can kill you just as dead as in the Alps or Andes. The Forest of Bowland is one of those areas that weren't easily accessible to ordinary folk until fairly recently, being private grouse moors. Look up "Manchester Rambler" and "Kinder trespass". It's not a dale because those are in Yorkshire or Derbyshire :} It's nearer a clough (pron. cluff) which is a steep narrow valley. |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:15 PM (#3757082) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST Did. Didn't answer. |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:40 PM (#3757088) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke If you're interested in the often complex origins of Lancashire placenames, you might find this article (link to PDF) interesting. I suspect that "trough" is a fairly modern name. There aren't many ancient forest-trees there now; most of the smallish areas of woodland are conifer plantations. The area has an association with the Pendle witches. They were probably taken from Pendle to Lancaster for trial and execution via the Trough of Bowland rioad. |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:44 PM (#3757090) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Will Fly The Trough is indeed a clough which runs down Lancashire to the east of the main A6 and M6 roads, from Wray in the north of the county to Longridge in the middle of the county. As far as major towns are concerned, it bypasses both Lancaster and Preston. An absolutely beautiful part of the county - I used to live in Lancaster and work in Preston, so know the area well. My father worked at a remote paper mill in the hamlet of Oakenclough - pronounced "Oakenclew". |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:46 PM (#3757091) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST In literature of the mid 1700s hills were often said to be 'rocky and bleak' even if, as in the Forest of Bowland, they were not particularly rocky. Yes to Paul Burke. Until recently one could only look at them longingly from places like Pendle Hill, or admire them when taking a slower but more direct on the map road to the seaside. |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:48 PM (#3757092) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST Yes to Will Fly as well (crossed). Forgot this |
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09 Dec 15 - 12:59 PM (#3757096) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome You will have passed quite close when you went to Fleetwood, Susan. As you turned left towards Blackpool, just past Preston, had you have turned right you would have been 15 minutes from Bowland. If you can remember that far back and have not blocked it out due to the torrential rain you got! The Forest of Bowland is a lovely place to the south west of the Yorkshire Dales and the south east of the Lake District. The trough is a high pass within the forest. I believe there are plans afoot to link the two afore mentioned national parks and, if they do, it would be nice to include Bowland to become one massive area of natural beauty. The other thing is that both the western edge of the Dales and the southern end of the Lakes were in Lancashire until 1974 so maybe a new Lancashire National Park could be part of it? Cheers Dave |
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09 Dec 15 - 01:00 PM (#3757097) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke "Oakenclew" - that's interesting. It was always "cluff" round our way - Boggart Hole Clough being one example. |
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09 Dec 15 - 01:21 PM (#3757106) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie Thank you all.... DtG I think u haz me mixed up w Susan of DT. What I'm seeing in the book is a witchy angle the develops, as well as possible parallels with the part of PA we're in ("the 'Wilds'"). So how is a dale different from a clough except by culture/tongue of the person naming it? (Do the respective regions really have terrain that differs a lot?) I longed for a Winnebago and eventually got a boondocking minivan instead. I fear what I may get someday instead of the helicopter! ~Susan |
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09 Dec 15 - 01:30 PM (#3757108) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw Pendle's included, I see, in the Forest of Bowland these days, but the Trough of Bowland is north of the Ribble from Pendle. The area around is one of the most beautiful parts of upland England, Lancashire's best-kept secret. I take my old mum for a drive round there two or three times a year. If there's a God, it's his own country. I've always regarded the Trough as starting at Dunsop Bridge. The lovely road towards Lancaster climbs through a deep valley then over a pass before dropping gracefully towards the city. It would be very nice if those brainless idiots in the area who think it's fun to shoot at grouse, Ian Botham included, would leave the hen harriers alone. |
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09 Dec 15 - 01:34 PM (#3757110) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw It's always Pendle, by the way, never Pendle Hill, whatever the Ordinance Survey says! |
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09 Dec 15 - 02:01 PM (#3757121) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Will Fly "Oakenclew" - that's interesting. It was always "cluff" round our way - Boggart Hole Clough being one example. Indeed - my father called it "cluff" when he started there in 1957, but he just followed the locals' pronunciation after a while and used the "clew" pronunciation. Presumably a local dialect - similar to the locals around Heysham (pronounced locally and correctly "Heeshem") who call Heysham Harbour "Yashem Yerber" and go digging for "wazzums" (worms) for bait on the sands! |
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09 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM (#3757123) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Sorry Susan - Yes it seems I am! My apologies. I blame old age and poverty :-) |
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09 Dec 15 - 02:09 PM (#3757124) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke "So how is a dale different from a clough except by culture/tongue of the person naming it? (Do the respective regions really have terrain that differs a lot?)" The names reflect the diversity of the populations that settled in the area. Britons speaking something like Welsh, Saxons, West Norse with its Gaelic influences, and East Norse hailing from Denmark, Normans, Shakespeare, the Bible, teachers and the BBC all added to the linguistic stew. The English genius for making fine or nonexistent distinctions gave the words their subtle associations. Placenames get folk etymologies- where people reinterpret a word of forgotten meaning in the light of current meanings. So a "dale" is often (though not always) a fairly big (by local standards) valley. Other valleys might be "hope", "dean", "slack" etc. etc. "Clough" itself seems to come from Gaelic via Norse. There's no agreement at all about Bowland, it apparently sprouted a myth about bowmen, wheras it may have originally referred to cows (bo in Irish). |
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09 Dec 15 - 02:27 PM (#3757130) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome There are nods to all sorts of languages all over the country and up here in the Yorkshire Dales we have the hills like Pen-Y-Gent and Gragareth that sound distinctly Celtic to me. Many Norse sounding names like Arkengarthdale and Threlkeld and some that defy my efforts to place them like Langthopthsdale (Something to do with lambs?)and Starbotton (No idea!) Bill Byson did a very interesting book called 'Mother Tongue' that compared and contrasted American and UK English. One thing that came across quite distinctly was that diversity of language in such a small place as the UK! |
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09 Dec 15 - 03:03 PM (#3757138) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw Penyghent is uncertain. "Pen" is hill, as in Pendle (which is why you don't say "Pendle Hill"). The y in Penyghent could be the Welsh definite article and the rest of the name could be of Welsh origin too. The first reference to Penyghent was in 1307, "Penegent." Another early spelling is "Penaygent". Whatever. It's a beautiful mountain, and it IS a mountain, and it has purple saxifrage growing on ledges near the top (so climb it just after Easter). What more could you want! |
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09 Dec 15 - 03:26 PM (#3757143) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke which is why you don't say "Pendle Hill".. In a few years it will be Mount Pendlehill Peak. |
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09 Dec 15 - 03:56 PM (#3757147) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw You haven't met the people from round there, have you, Paul. All my dad's side are from Great Harwood and Whalley. Just thought I'd mention it... |
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09 Dec 15 - 04:05 PM (#3757149) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome I thought pen was hill, 'dle' was a corruption of hill and hill was hill; so saying Pendle Hill was like saying hill hill hill? BTW - Question for Steve, when traversing the M65 there are signs for 'Pendle Village'. When did that come about and what is or was it? |
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09 Dec 15 - 05:16 PM (#3757166) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST Tee Hee. I knew putting 'Pendle Hill' would stir 'em up. (I thought what Dave the Gnome said, but we may just have read the same books) |
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09 Dec 15 - 05:41 PM (#3757172) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,wysusan So... I'm loving all the chatter between you.... but is (a/the) Trough a valley and is it straightish or windingish? Is it a distinct TYPE of valley as opposed to a dale, etc? Can't we just agree to call them innies and outies? Head's hurting again.... ~Susan |
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09 Dec 15 - 06:17 PM (#3757184) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Sorry, Susan. Thought I said earlier. In this case the trough is not a valley a high pass - Rather like what is traditionally called a saddle or a 'coll'. Why it is a though in this case I have no idea but it is on the road that runs from Lancaster to Clithroe. You may be able to see it better on Street Map but you may also be able to zoom in on the co-ordinates using Google Maps Hope this helps rather than confuses more :-) |
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09 Dec 15 - 06:18 PM (#3757185) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome ...not a valley BUT a high pass... |
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09 Dec 15 - 06:28 PM (#3757186) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw Well do Google Earth and home in on Dunsop Bridge, and look north from there. Yep, strictly speaking, "Pendle" means "hill hill", but when we use local names we don't worry too much about their etymology. The locals call it Pendle, not Pendle Hill, which is the main thing. The addition of "hill" is an unhelpful hypercorrection. We know such things all too well here in Cornwall. I've also seen the abysmal "Penyghent Hill" on maps. Not only is "hill" entirely superfluous, it's also inaccurate, as Penyghent is a mountain, not a hill, as anyone can see. Pendle Village is a shop in Brierfield, near Nelson, near Pendle but not of it. The real villages around Pendle are Sabden, Barley, Newchurch and Downham. If you drive round Pendle, don't forget to go over the Nick o' Pendle from the A59 to Sabden, then go straight on to the road over Black Hill. Magic. Incidentally, Dunsop Bridge is the exact geographical centre of Britain. There are fools who claim that the spot lies several miles to the north, but I don't believe 'em. Liars. |
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09 Dec 15 - 06:48 PM (#3757193) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw If you're old enough to remember the film Whistle Down The Wind, with Hayley Mills and Alan Bates, it was filmed around Pendle, with lots of scenes in Downham, as lovely a village as anyone could imagine. The churchyard is gorgeously atmospheric, with the finest views of Pendle. The Assheton Arms does great beer and lovely sandwiches. Springtime is the best time to go, lots of flowers and not too crowded. |
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09 Dec 15 - 09:08 PM (#3757218) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Wys GF cookieless YOU GUYS ARE THE BESSSSST!!!!! It's an innie up an outtie. ~Susan |
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10 Dec 15 - 04:16 AM (#3757264) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke If you enjoyed "Round the Sofa" you might like to read Mist Over Pendle by Robert Neill. Set in the menacing shadow of looming Pendle Hill Mountain Tor Peak in the turbulent reign of England's King James I, this novel packs mystery, murder, withcraft, love, fashion and horseriding into a thrilling mix of... whatever, I can't do this advertising blurb stuff. It's a bloody good read. |
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10 Dec 15 - 04:25 AM (#3757268) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Must be time for a song... Pendle, old Pendle, thou standest alone. Twixt Burnley and Clitheroe, Whalley and Colne, Where Hodder and Ribble's fair waters do meet With Barley and Downham content at thy feet. |
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10 Dec 15 - 04:29 AM (#3757271) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Or, better still in my mind, July Wakes |
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10 Dec 15 - 08:35 AM (#3757348) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,wysiwyg minus cookie A song and a round! |
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10 Dec 15 - 12:46 PM (#3757434) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Stanron Interesting turn of the thread. I've put the tune and chords for July Wakes in the ABC file below. I was surprised to see "beg or steal or pawn" because I've always sung "beg or sell or pawn". I doubt that a mill worker would boast of stealing, even for an unpaid holiday. I've seen the time signature as 2/4 and 4/4 but for me it's a choice between either 6/8 or 12/8. I settled on 6/8. I had a look at the maps and I must treat myself to a drive up that way when it gets warmer. X: 1 T: July Wakes C: Lyrics R Pomfret Music Stan Ellison M: 6/8 L: 1/8 K: Dmin | "Dm"D3 D3 | d3 d3 | "C"c2d c2G | "Dm"A3- A2F| "C"G3 G3 | c3 B2 B | "F"A3 F3 | "C"G3 E2C | w: Looms is swept and brass * is| drawn * and me and Jack we'll be up at dawn we're | "Dm"D2E F2G | "C"A2B c2A | "D"d3 A3 | "C"c6 | "F"A2B A2F | "C"G3 E3 | "G"D6 | w: off * to | beg * or | sell or pawn (Spoken) for | t'Ju-ly Wakes |
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10 Dec 15 - 01:32 PM (#3757448) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome I have only ever heard Geoff Higginbottom do it, Stanron. I can't find a sound file for it. Do you know if he uses your tune? |
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10 Dec 15 - 01:39 PM (#3757450) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Ah - Just found it. Yes, it is the same tune I think. |
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10 Dec 15 - 03:10 PM (#3757483) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Stanron I've not heard Geoff's version of it. I found it online but wasn't able to get the file to play. There are a couple of ABC versions in the database. If I can find out how to do it I'll enter mine. |
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10 Dec 15 - 04:51 PM (#3757515) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Always worth having a look on geograph.org for photos. The aim of the site is to have all the distinctive features in every 1km national grid square photographed by contributers. I've put a few on myself, but not of Bowland. |
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10 Dec 15 - 05:06 PM (#3757518) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Musket apparently Back in the day, Mike Harding used to sing July Wakes, playing his banjo. There's a hotel in Clitheroe that makes mushy peas almost as good as I do. My very good and sorely missed friend the late Eric Payne, Mudcat's "Ep'th Eric" hailed from those parts and he used to sing July Wakes too. His mushy peas weren't as good as mine though. An ex girlfriend from Knott End used to take me walking in Forest of Bowland. Some nice views, especially when walking behind her. |
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10 Dec 15 - 05:30 PM (#3757528) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome It wasn't Betty was it Musket? :-) |
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10 Dec 15 - 07:21 PM (#3757554) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke Was there another girl in Knott End? |
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10 Dec 15 - 07:39 PM (#3757558) Subject: RE: BS: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw She might have looked good from behind, but I hope she wasn't in charge of the mushy peas. Last time I saw her trying to follow a recipe that said "sweat the chopped vegetables gently in olive oil for twenty minutes" she got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely, and the soup had, er, rather an earthy, sort of salty background... |
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11 Dec 15 - 03:01 AM (#3757595) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome You are not Stan as in the writer of the tune by any chance are you, Stanron? |
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11 Dec 15 - 03:11 AM (#3757596) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Musket reminiscing Naw. Before she came. This lady had the benefit of reality. I still bear the scars. (Well, a scar anyway. Thirteen years on and still white with no hair growing on it.) Feasty buggers, these Lancastrians. Betty was last seen getting on a charabanc with Cornwall written on the front of the bus. Something about a paternity claim, getting a DNA sample? She said she got hold of the wrong end of the stick when being asked to play mouth organ. Ring a bell with anyone? |
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11 Dec 15 - 03:38 AM (#3757601) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Steve Shaw Damn. I'm moving away. As you know, she employs unofficial methods of procuring DNA samples. A sample with a duplicate, all inside a convenient skin receptacle... |
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11 Dec 15 - 04:14 AM (#3757604) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Will Fly Knott End - that brings back a weird memory. When I started as a young recruit in the Harris Public Library in Preston (now part of Lancs. C.C. library service), a young lass called (I think) Marjorie Berry started on the same day. She amazed us all by exercising with a pair of Indian clubs in the staff room at break time. That's Knott End for you. |
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11 Dec 15 - 06:27 AM (#3757628) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Stanron yes |
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11 Dec 15 - 06:36 AM (#3757629) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Dave the Gnome Hey! I put 2 and 2 together and actually made 4 this time :-) Thanks Stan. This YouTube clip was the one I found that set me off thinking it might be you for some reason. Who knows what synapses clicked to get there! I also found links to it being by Mike Harding, Gary and Vera, and a traditional song. Well done for a great song anyway! |
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12 Dec 15 - 11:02 AM (#3757893) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,Musket I may have mentioned before. Knott End Working Men's Club. The aforesaid girlfriend worked for a community group and each year filled the WMC on a weekday afternoon with elderly people from care homes and those they helped to live at home etc for a concert. I got roped into it and I was up on stage doing me bit as it were, and I noticed, as well as the stage lighting allowed, a commotion near a door at the rear of the concert hall. I plodded on and finished my turn. To this day, I feel guilty that the last thing one lady ever heard in her life was me stood there with a banjo, singing about my little bimbo out on a bamboo isle, or possibly Goodnight Irene (luckily that wasn't her name...) or even a Marriot Edgar monologue. Any road, don't tell Backwoodsman, BanjoyRay or the rookery I have a banjo. I keep telling them it is purely for research purposes. (That said, we all went to watch Martin Simpson last night. He could easily alter my position re banjos. Ray knows I love them really.) |
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12 Dec 15 - 01:25 PM (#3757919) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: GUEST,henryp The Forest of Bowland is still in the hands of large estates. The Queen - as the Duke of Lancaster - owns one. When the Queen retires, she intends to make the Forest of Bowland her home. She is also the landlady of the Inn at Whitewell. |
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12 Dec 15 - 04:36 PM (#3757941) Subject: RE: Lancashire Geography Question From: Paul Burke Does she pull a good pint? |