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27 Apr 16 - 07:03 AM (#3787418) Subject: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,henryp Folk Awards 2016 BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 BBC Radio 2 tonight Wednesday 7:30pm Prior to the main event, Simon Mayo will also present a special Drivetime show backstage at the Albert Hall from 5pm, with live music and chat from Folk Awards guests. And followed at 10:00pm by another chance to hear Bob Harris celebrate the life and music of Sandy Denny, a singer and songwriter who was at the very heart of the birth of British folk rock. Joan Armatrading, one of Britain's most respected singer-songwriters, receives a Lifetime Achievement Award and performs live. Norma Waterson, the esteemed traditional singer known for her work with The Watersons, Waterson:Carthy and daughter Eliza Carthy, receives the same accolade and also makes a rare live performance. Scottish multi-instrumentalist and producer John McCusker marks 25 years in music with a Good Tradition Award and by performing with both his new John McCusker Band and in a special performance with Dire Straits' guitar legend Mark Knopfler. Rufus Wainwright sings a special tribute to folk-rock legend Sandy Denny (d. 1978), who is inducted into the Folk Awards Hall of Fame. Rufus, whose parents are folk stars Loudon Wainwright III and the late Kate McGarrigle, will be backed by a band of musicians who played with Sandy during her short career. Northumbrian group The Unthanks, who are nominated for Best Album, perform, as does London singer and song-collector Sam Lee in a special collaboration with the Roundhouse Choir. Dublin folk-punks Lynched, nominated in three categories, play live, as do the duo Kathryn Roberts & Sean Lakeman. The 2016 BBC Radio 2 Young Folk Award is also presented to one of four nominees, all of whom are UK-based musicians aged 16-21. These inspiring young acts also perform live during the interval, in a special programme hosted by Simon Mayo and top folk musician Kathryn Tickell. |
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27 Apr 16 - 07:17 AM (#3787419) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Backwoodsman Will there be any TV coverage? |
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27 Apr 16 - 08:05 AM (#3787422) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST Will there be any TV coverage? That would be a no. |
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27 Apr 16 - 08:08 AM (#3787423) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST BBC website: "The Folk Awards will be broadcast live on BBC Radio 2 between 7.30pm and 10pm. It will also be available to watch on the BBC iPlayer and the Red Button at a later date. For more details head to bbc.co.uk/radio2" Harry |
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27 Apr 16 - 09:13 AM (#3787427) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Peter C So once again, not much folk music then! |
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28 Apr 16 - 05:36 AM (#3787575) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Kampervan I watched it live last night. It was televised from the Radio 2 website so it could be watched either on your computer or on a Smart TV with internet connection. Norma Waterson got an award after which she spoke very movingly, then sang. She may be slowing down bit but her voice is still fantastic. |
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28 Apr 16 - 06:49 AM (#3787582) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Dave Hanson It was worth it to hear Norma Waterson talk and then sing. Mark Knopfler was included merely to try and pull in a wider range of listeners [ as good as he is, it's got nowt to do with folk music ] Dave H |
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28 Apr 16 - 10:02 AM (#3787606) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Ian I saw some bits which I enjoyed but over all it lacked dynamism and the use of a teleprompt just killed the introductions. As for folk singer of the year - I'm sorry to say I've never heard of her! |
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28 Apr 16 - 10:21 AM (#3787612) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,guest Tim I was pleased to be able to attend, Rufus Wainwright did a spectacular version of `Who knows where the time goes' as part of the tribute to Sandy Denny, The Unthanks were different and great as usual, it was lovely to see Norma up and singing again, though she did look frail.. The teleprompt was grim... |
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28 Apr 16 - 01:02 PM (#3787627) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Ian Agreed Tim. The first line of 'Who Knows ..' had me thinking that it was going to be a disaster. By the third line or so I thought it was fantastic. |
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29 Apr 16 - 07:36 AM (#3787811) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,John from Kemsing I hope Simon Mayo has been told that it was Donovan who a song during one of his presenting slots and not Bob Dylan as he stated. |
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30 Apr 16 - 06:02 AM (#3787903) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Jack Campin Donovan built a career on people not being able to tell the difference so you can hardly blame Mayo. |
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30 Apr 16 - 07:12 AM (#3787914) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Effsee Anyone with SKY TV can catch the highlights today on 2 programmes... Channel 980 1.00 - 2.30 pm 5.30 - 9.20 pm. |
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30 Apr 16 - 08:18 AM (#3787925) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Ed You don't need Sky TV to watch them. They are available on the 'red button' at those times and during most of next week: Red Button 1 Listings |
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30 Apr 16 - 10:26 AM (#3787936) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST, DTM Saw the show last night. It was on twice on BBC RB. May be on catch up? |
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30 Apr 16 - 10:48 AM (#3787946) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Bonzo3legs Not enough English Folk in the 30 minutes or so I've listened to. |
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30 Apr 16 - 10:56 AM (#3787948) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST, DTM A nice change from the usual though ;-) |
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30 Apr 16 - 11:38 AM (#3787955) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: punkfolkrocker We watched it last night on iplayer HD.. The meagre few seconds played of quite a few of the nominees sounded far more interesting than the safe MOR easy listening live acts.... |
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01 May 16 - 07:40 AM (#3788091) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Bonzo3legs Great to see an "Albion Band" backing Rufus Wainwright!! |
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02 May 16 - 05:22 AM (#3788251) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Brian May Shame Rufus Wainwright sang at all - talk about overproduction. Sandy Denny just sang the song, beautifully . . . but RW's version was appalling IMHO. I wondered what the 'Albion Band' were thinking while they were playing. Oh well, it takes all sorts. I'll remain esconsed in the 70s with 'proper' Fairport and Steeleye Span et al. |
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02 May 16 - 06:07 AM (#3788254) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,nutty What about the Young Uns, Plenty of traditional folk there. |
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02 May 16 - 06:28 AM (#3788255) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Kampervan It must be an unenviable job,trying to select 'The Best' in any category. But I do feel that there is a core of excellent performers, who have 'served their time' and fill folk clubs week after week but never get recognition. Thinking of the likes of Bob Fox, Vin Garbutt, The Wilsons, the list goes on. Just my humble opinion. |
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02 May 16 - 06:49 AM (#3788258) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Chris I would totally agree with Guest Kampervan, I have see the Wilson Family twice in the last week. They were the best act at the Costa folk festival in Magaluf and again on Saturday night in a sold out concert at Upton folk festival. I cannot believe that these wonderful performers are overlooked at these awards????? |
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02 May 16 - 09:51 AM (#3788272) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,henryp Simon Mayo, Drivetime, Wednesday 27 April 2016 17.00, presented from the Royal Albert Hall. There's a great introduction from the Unthanks! |
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02 May 16 - 04:26 PM (#3788295) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Backwoodsman Vin Garbutt has won the 'Best Live Act' award twice, on the BBC Radio 2Folk Awards. |
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02 May 16 - 06:11 PM (#3788320) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: matt milton One thing about the folk awards that I don't understand is: what is the (national) inclusion criteria? I've never paid much attention, but I was surprised to see Rhiannon Giddens win an award this year - I'm a fan of her music, but I didn't realise the awards covered American acts too! Is that the case? If so, why aren't there more US acts being nominated each year?! I don't get it... |
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02 May 16 - 06:24 PM (#3788322) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: punkfolkrocker I've never cared much for Rufus Wainwright, but I thought he was one of the better live acts on the show... .. mainly because his performance reminded me a bit of the sound of Michael Chapman's "Fully Qualified Survivor" LP.. ..one of my favourite albums since I was about 15 circa 1974... |
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04 May 16 - 08:42 AM (#3788521) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Howard Jones Well I've finally got around to watching this on catch-up. What a monumental bore! Mark Radcliffe proved what an irritating and self-important broadcaster he is, second only to Chris Evans, imo. Dear old Mike Harding was not without his faults, but as a professional comedian he at least knew how to write, and deliver, a joke. Thank God for Julie Fowlis, who simply got on with the job in a thoroughly professional and likeable manner. Then to present the awards there was the parade of C-list BBC types, who seem to have discovered a life-long interest in folk after remembering that their brother once owned a Pentangle LP. Is the folk world supposed to feel honoured that these 'celebrities' are willing to appear? The only presenter I saw who had any right to be there was Phil Cunningham. I don't doubt that Joan Armatrading is thoroughly deserving of a lifetime award, but for folk? Really? Most disappointing of all was that the live performances simply failed to engage me. This was partly due to the sound production, which made everything sound a bit bland. The John McCusker Band appeared to be led by a flautist, at least that was the dominant sound in the mix that I heard. There was a fiddler on stage as well, but I didn't hear much from him. The performance which made me sit up and listen was an archive clip of Sandy Denny, but Rufus Wainwright's rendition of "Who Knows Where the Time Goes?" which followed was just dull. It seemed to receive a fairly muted reception from the live audience, and Radcliffe's attempt to whip up some enthusiasm fell flat. Apart from wondering why Ms Armatrading was there I don't have any complaints about the awards themselves, but I didn't hear much from any actual award winners. When my connection crashed, during Sam Lee's performance, I couldn't be bothered to try to restore it. Perhaps I missed some later gems, but nothing I'd seen up to then led me to expect it. People say this is the "folk industry" rewarding itself, but I don't think it's even that. This is the BBC's view of folk, stuff they feel they can safely broadcast which ticks the box of catering to minority interests but won't frighten the horses and won't lose too much of the audience before they can get back to broadcasting proper popular music. It doesn't have much to do with the exciting and vibrant music I listen to and participate in. And who designed that trophy? I was fond of Morph when I was young, but as a model for a serious music award it seems to lack a certain gravitas. |
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04 May 16 - 09:15 AM (#3788531) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: punkfolkrocker ... I'll add... the only live act that me & the mrs thought was at least a bit less insipid than the others was Lynched.. and I'm not that great a fan of Irish folk music after more than 45 years of over exposure to the same old sounds... Such a shame Norma Waterson's magnificent voice was shackled to that hopeless shambolic mess of a backing band... Btw.. that duo.. Roberts & Lakeman... he should just stop poncing about and get himself a proper electric guitar and an amp... 😜 |
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04 May 16 - 10:10 AM (#3788551) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Les in Chorlton I watched it and recognised most of what the last two posters have said but don't agree with everything - the intros and chats were pretty boring - I guess giving the technicians time to get the sound sets ready for the next band. As for C celebs - some were A for me - but who cares. The central strategy - as many have pointed out, is to get people who know Joan Armatrading and others from the acoustic end of popular music to see what is going on in a similar end of folk. Lots of the folkies seemed to like Rufus singing WKW the TG. We saw him at The Appolo in Manchester and he couldn't have been much further away from Folk as brilliant as he is. Given the breadth and depth of the current folk seen it's hard to know what a balance might be. Answers on an email to Smooth Opps? |
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04 May 16 - 02:34 PM (#3788612) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,Howard Jones That may indeed be the strategy, but is there any sign that its actually working? There are plenty of opportunities to discover different flavours of music now, and people aren't as invested in one particular genre as used to be the case. I suspect that those at the acoustic end of pop who might be interested in folk already know about it, and the rest aren't likely to change their minds.while those at the poppier end of folk would probably give their eye teeth to shed the folk label and be in with a chance of earning some serious money. Both the Awards and the weekly show draw an audience but they don't seem to be aimed at serious enthusiasts for folk. |
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04 May 16 - 02:43 PM (#3788615) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST Did anyone apart from good lady and me notice the bums notes that the Unthanks sang. |
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04 May 16 - 03:02 PM (#3788619) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,padgett Yes I saw the Awards online last week and eventually on BBC i player though I had some difficulty finding it! Rufus Wainwright ~ well he worked hard and dodged up and down a bit but I prefer folk as communication and words Kathryn and Sean yes nice, and Young 'Uns lol David's irreverance and off the cuff comments, never change David great stuff! Time for Bob Fox, Jez Lowe, Vinny, Mr Burland: Lifetime achievements next year dunno ~ Harvey Andrews, Derek Brimstone ~ best group Doonans,Demon Barbers, Fureys, Chieftans, Dubliners (may be too late!)Melrose Quartet Ray |
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05 May 16 - 06:34 AM (#3788748) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,jonesnudger I didn't see the whole awards ceremony and of the acts I saw only Norma Waterson shone. I was reminded of when I was working and my employers organised awards evenings. The intention was to make money despite the implied message that it was so wonderful for the industries involved. Nothing wrong with that but it does distort the whole business and I see the whole phoney show as another symptom of the decline of the BBC.I suppose I should now write IMHO... |
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05 May 16 - 09:14 AM (#3788772) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: matt milton "Both the Awards and the weekly show draw an audience but they don't seem to be aimed at serious enthusiasts for folk." Maybe that's true of the awards, but I'm not sure that's entirely fair on the Radio 2 Folk Show. The acts being played on the R2 Folk Show are the same acts playing Cambridge and Sidmouth and the other large festivals. I would agree that the Folk Show's playlist is often quite middle-of-the-road, but I'd say that's more of an inditement of the UK folk scene in general. The R2 folk show does play, and host live sessions from, the likes of Stick in the Wheel and Lynched. You don't hear much unaccompanied singing on the Folk Show, it is true, but then again there aren't that many contemporary folk acts who release albums of unaccompanied singing. |
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05 May 16 - 03:26 PM (#3788836) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Howard Jones I'm not sure the acts playing Cambridge are aimed at serious enthusiasts for folk. Perhaps it says more about my own tastes than anything else, but when I first got involved in folk "Folk on Friday" with Jim Lloyd was required listening, and everyone I knew listened and talked about it. Now I only listen if I happen to be in the car at that time. In fairness, there will usually be something I like, but plenty more that I'm fairly indifferent to. "Middle of the road" about sums it up, but I don't agree that's typical of the UK folk scene in general, and as I said earlier it doesn't reflect the music I listen to and participate in. |
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05 May 16 - 04:24 PM (#3788846) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Bonzo3legs Excellent presenter was Jim Lloyd, I doubt if we'll ever see his calibre again!! |
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06 May 16 - 05:37 AM (#3788909) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,George Frampton For my part, I often feel that the 'Awards' is something to be endured rather than enjoyed! One things that is bugging me, however, is the enhanced profile Mr Radcliffe has with the Beeb with Stuart Maconie egging him on when together. One good thing that has evolved is for the active participation of a new generation at the expense (when needed) of an entrenched older one! I look around and see that none of us are getting any younger! I don't doubt Mark's enthusiasm for most forms of music but, for 'folk' music - even 'traditional' music - to be viewed on an even par with jazz, blues, C&W or classical, could we shunt Mark off back to BBC Radio 6 and import a dedicated and knowledgeable expert of our genre into the position? We need a crusader like Paul Jones, Jamie McCallum and Bob Harris. |
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06 May 16 - 08:37 AM (#3788921) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: matt milton ""Middle of the road" about sums it up, but I don't agree that's typical of the UK folk scene in general, and as I said earlier it doesn't reflect the music I listen to and participate in." But I'm interested to know how the show actually could reflect the music you listen to and participate in. Could you name some names - who are the musicians you are thinking of? What should they be playing? Have you ever sent in, say, an album of the music you participate in to the Folk Show? |
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06 May 16 - 09:07 AM (#3788924) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: matt milton "I'm not sure the acts playing Cambridge are aimed at serious enthusiasts for folk." Again, this seems a little unfair. I've never been to Cambridge, but I've just googled their most recent line-up. Here's a few of the names: Christy Moore, Eliza Carthy, Jon Boden, Chris Wood, John McCusker, Michael McGoldrick, Stick in the Wheel, Sam Lee, Kate Rusby, Kila, Breabach, Nancy Kerr... You don't have to like all these particular acts, sure, but I'm curious to know the names that a festival aimed at serious folk acts should be booking in your opinion? |
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06 May 16 - 11:16 AM (#3788929) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Backwoodsman Those would do for me... |
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06 May 16 - 07:44 PM (#3788967) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST, DTM I don't think there should be an "awards" show for Folk music. Award shows are everything that Folk music isn't. Far better calling it "A Folk Appreciation Night" and select respected performers to perform and remove any 'competition' aspect from the proceedings. These shows are ghastly and shallow. They are also divisive and thereby not in the spirit of folk music as a whole. |
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07 May 16 - 11:09 AM (#3789020) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Ed. It's a pity that Howard hasn't come back to defend his ridiculous assution that: "The acts playing Cambridge [aren't] aimed at serious enthusiasts for folk." I like the Cambridge festival, I like Mark Radcliffe, I like all sorts of music. It makes me happy. I dislike ageing critics who want the 'folk scene' to continue to be as it was in the '60s or'70s |
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07 May 16 - 11:13 AM (#3789021) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Ed. assution = assertion Apologies for the typo. |
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07 May 16 - 11:18 AM (#3789023) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Jack Campin I think they should join forces with this event: http://www.7daysscotland.co.uk/sites/events/a_accounts/ to present "Fiddler of the Year". |
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07 May 16 - 11:30 AM (#3789025) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: punkfolkrocker Me and the mrs enjoy this annual awards tripe.. We particularly enjoy taking the piss out of what the smug middle aged middle class tossers regard to be cool looking 'folkie' clothes... 😎 😜 |
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07 May 16 - 02:33 PM (#3789051) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: The Sandman typical example of commercialisation, safe middle of the road music |
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07 May 16 - 05:25 PM (#3789078) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: GUEST,bill That's enough about you, Dick, what do you think of the folk awards?
-Joe Offer- |
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07 May 16 - 07:40 PM (#3789089) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards From: Jack Campin what the smug middle aged middle class tossers regard to be cool looking 'folkie' clothes Googling for pictures of Mark Radcliffe I find these two outfits: Mark Radcliffe 1 Mark Radcliffe 2 The second is definitely more appropriate for presenting gongs. |
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08 May 16 - 03:17 AM (#3789116) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: The Sandman my objections to these kind of awards, are that they help to turn what was once an alternative music into something moving much closer to pop music, they are presented by the establishment and appear to me to favour safe more commercial kinds of folk music that while it is competently played and well produced appear to me to have mooved away from what i consider to be the the roots of the music. |
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08 May 16 - 03:39 AM (#3789122) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: The Sandman my remarks were aimed particulrly at the inclusion of mark knopfler and joan armatrading. both are maybe at the better end [imo] of popular coomercial music, but thats what they do popular commercial music ,not folk music these are supposed to be folk awards. jack campin do you seriously think donovan sounds anything like dylan? |
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08 May 16 - 05:00 AM (#3789136) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: Harry Rivers Speaking of clothes, every time I see Stuart Maconie, it reminds me of the first time I saw my Dad wearing flares. I enjoy the Folk Awards which has a wider remit that just Folk but celebrates Acoustic and Roots (whatever that is?) music, too, and I believe that anytime the BBC broadcasts musicians playing live (even with the "bums" notes) they should be applauded. Harry |
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08 May 16 - 05:18 AM (#3789138) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: Will Fly Just a comment on Mark Knopfler. He may have made his fortune playing electric guitar with Dire Straits, but his roots are definitely in the folk world and he cut his teeth - and guitar fingers - on folk music, playing in pubs like many another of us. Now he's established and rich enough to do whatever he wants, he's obviously gone back to those roots. Whether you like him or not is up to you, but don't assume that he's always been a "commercial" musician. I personally couldn't care less - from what I've seen and heard of the man, he seems a genuine guy who really knows about and cares about music. As for being "commercial", I wish I'd written and recorded just one of his songs. And as for the Folk Awards (as I've said before on other threads) - couldn't give a toss. |
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08 May 16 - 12:13 PM (#3789179) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: The Sandman Will, he probably is a nice man, but thts not relevant, he may have learned finger picking playing folk music so did Donovan, And their music probably is the better end of pop music, but why in the folk awards? Mark knopfler has not played many folk clubs or folk festivals, Will what has playing in pubs got to do with it?, country musicians play in pubs some use finger style or flatpicking guitar does it make them folk music? tribute artists play in pubs, Many performers of different genres play in pubs and have to suffer sometimes as background music,that does not necessarily make their music folk music. finally, my remarks were not aimed at liza carthy, norma waterson, the unthanks or sam lee, all of whom are very popular performers in a folk style and part of what has become the folk music industry., they are good at what they do, they are well managed and well promoted. as far as i am concerned it is very sad that the music, i saw in the folk clubs of the sixties, that used to be described as the music of the people has become so commercialised, but i suppose it is inevitable i am not impressed with the idea of the folk awards, I prefer to make my judgements on live performances. |
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08 May 16 - 12:35 PM (#3789183) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: GUEST i am not impressed with the idea of the folk awards, I prefer to make my judgements on live performances. I don't often agree with GSS but +1 to that. |
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09 May 16 - 09:25 AM (#3789345) Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards 2016 From: Howard Jones The reason I've not been back to defend my statement was that I've been away all weekend - playing folk music as it happens. My comment about Cambridge Folk Festival was probably unfair and I'm not going to defend it, but I will explain it. My impression is that it does tend to book headliners who are not names I would immediately associate with folk. According to Wikipedia these have included Chumbawamba, Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros and The Levellers, while a random dip into the archives turned up Bill Wyman's Rhythm Kings, Now I don't what to start yet another "what is folk" debate, suffice to say that they don't come within my own notion of the term. CFF is hugely successful on its own terms, and I'm not suggesting that its audience doesn't include people with a deep interest in folk music, but at the same time I don't believe it, or some of the artists it books, is representative of the UK folk scene, which is what the Folk Awards should be. My impression of the Radio 2 folk show may also be unfair, as I don't listen to it very often. Whenever I happen to dip in, it appears to me to lean quite strongly towards Americana, Irish and singer-songwriters. I've nothing against any of these, but I don't think that's a good representation of the UK folk scene either. Perhaps I've just been unlucky. |
