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27 Nov 16 - 04:58 PM (#3823117) Subject: Origins: Gaudete From: Dave Rado A number of things intrigue me about Gaudete. Although it was first published in 1582, it's generally referred to as being a medieval folk carol which if true, implies it must be at least 100 years older than that. Is there any consensus about how old it's likely to be? It was first published in Finland, but in a collection that included songs from all over northern Europe, and as it's in Latin, it could originate anywhere. Is there any consensus about where it's likely to have originated? Does anyone know what "Piae Cantiones" (the title of the book in which it was first published) actually means? Google translate is no help! I assume it must mean something like "Song collection"? Was it reasonably common for medieval folk carols to be written in Latin? Presumably ordinary people wouldn't have been able to understand or join in with them, only the elites. I realise that the Mass was said in Latin, but as I understand it, ordinary people didn't understand the words of the Mass either, although they'd have been told the broad meaning. Given that ordinary people wouldn't have been able to sing a Latin carol, would monks perhaps have walked through the town squares singing it in procession? Might the ordinary people have joined in with the choruses? Would someone have translated the verses for them? Dave |
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27 Nov 16 - 05:25 PM (#3823120) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Senoufou Cantio is a feminine Latin noun meaning 'song'. The plural in the nominative case is 'cantiones'. The adjective 'pius' means holy or religious. The feminine plural form (to match the noun 'cantiones') is 'piae'. So it just means 'religious' or 'holy' songs. Ordinary people, as you suggest, wouldn't have known much Latin. But most abbeys and monasteries had choir schools and education for some boys was provided. They probably sang these cantiones. I think people would have understood the sentence 'Christus est natus' as it was declared at the moment of Christmas, (midnight on Christmas Eve). |
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27 Nov 16 - 05:35 PM (#3823124) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: maeve Just a couple of notes while you're waiting for real help: The full editor/title, etc. is listed as: "Theodoric Petri, ed., Piae Cantiones Ecclesiasticæ Et Scholasticae Et Scholasticae Vetervm Episcoporum. (Gyphisuualdiæ: Augustinum Ferberum, 1582)." https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/NonEnglish/gaudete_gaudete_christus_est_nat.htm Google translate (lamentably awkward for translations, but available...)says Piae means "Patriotic" and I assume Cantiones are "songs". Ecclesiasticæ would be Ecclesiasticals. Vetervm = veterum = "old". Episcoporum translates as "Bishops". Scholastiæ appears to mean "scholarly" or scholars? It would appear just the full title helps with some of your queries, but I'm sure some of our Latin scholars will appear soon to set us straight. ;) |
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27 Nov 16 - 05:36 PM (#3823126) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: maeve More help here: Rev. George R. Woodward, ed., Piæ Cantiones. A Collection of Church & School Song, chiefly Ancient Swedish, originally Published |
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27 Nov 16 - 05:38 PM (#3823127) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: maeve We cross-posted, Senoufou! :) |
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27 Nov 16 - 05:49 PM (#3823132) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: leeneia Hi, Dave. Here's an article which gives info about the book and its influences. https://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/Biographies/Hadidian/Chap_4-History_%20PC_Songs.htm The article mentions that many of the songs refer to schools and to singing in school, so I believe that answers many questions about the use of Latin. |
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27 Nov 16 - 08:49 PM (#3823158) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Joe Offer We've had fun playing with this song over the years. Take a look at this thread, which goes back to 1997 in Mudcat's early days. The songs were written in medieval Latin, a language Cicero would barely recognize. I would guess that at the time, most people who could read, could read Latin. Note that the lyrics in the Digital Tradition are from a very poor transcription that appears on the Steeleye Span album. You'll find accurate lyrics in the Oxford Book of Carols, or in the messages in the 1997 thread. There's a MIDI in the other thread, too. The Wikipedia article on Piae Cantiones is also very interesting. -Joe, professional Latin tutor- |
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28 Nov 16 - 02:36 AM (#3823178) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Thompson Great Wiki. Joe, a request (if it's easy) - is it possible to change the clickylinky code so a blickifier opens a new tab/window rather than just shifting you to the new site? (The alternative for readers is (Mac) ctrl-click or (PC) right-click on the link to do this…) |
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28 Nov 16 - 03:24 AM (#3823183) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Will Fly Our guests Mike Gulston and Blanche Rowen will be singing their excellent Christmas version of this - "Crudite" - which features vegetables - at the Brighton Acoustic Session in the Lord Nelson, Trafalgar Street, on Monday 5th December. 8.30pm start. All welcome. |
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28 Nov 16 - 04:31 AM (#3823192) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Howard Jones The ordinary people weren't expected to understand the liturgy, religion should be explained to them by priests. Their religious education came from images - the churches at the time were usually decorated with vivid images of judgement and hellfire. Most of these were destroyed during the Reformation but some were painted over and survived - the recently resored Guild Chapel at Stratford on Avon has some fine examples. The Reformation was partly about allowing people to read the Bible and hear services in their own language. My home town still has a memorial to a young man of 19 who was burned at the stake or the crime of reading the Bible in English, and the tradition of the school I attended, which was founded a few years later by the judge who had ordered the execution, was that this was done out of remorse, although that now seems doubtful. |
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28 Nov 16 - 06:23 AM (#3823206) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Ed is it possible to change the clickylinky code so a blickifier opens a new tab/window rather than just shifting you to the new site? Thompson, It's easy to do that. You simply add the target="_blank" attribute to your html. So, to link to the Mudcat Homepage you would type <a href="http://mudcat.org" target="_blank">Mudcat Homepage</a> However, please don't use it, as it's really annoying. The current method gives the user the choice of what they wish to do, the above example doesn't. And Joe, certainly don't change the default code of the 'bclickifier'!
-Joe- |
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28 Nov 16 - 03:34 PM (#3823326) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Dave Quite a few of the carols from Piae Cantiones are in regular use in modern English language hymn books and carol services today, for which we have to thank John Mason Neale and Thomas Helmore. Neale translated many of the texts from the latin, wrote new words in some cases, or in at least one case (Corde natus ex parentis) set much older words to the music. The original poster is right of course that many of these tunes are much older than Piae Cantiones, In Dulci Jubilo certainly is. |
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28 Nov 16 - 07:51 PM (#3823378) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Joe Offer True, Howard....but my point is that Latin was widely understood and used by educated people....and no doubt, Latin lyrics would appeal to a much wider audience than Finnish ones. Confirming what Dave says, quite a number of songs from Piae Cantiones appear in the Oxford Book of Carols. I think a big reason for that, is that the melodies are so engaging. They're certainly not your standard anthems. The melody for "Gaudete" sounds almost modern, like it could fit in Carmina Burana. -Joe- |
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28 Nov 16 - 11:24 PM (#3823399) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Julia L Carmina Burana is Orff's arrangements of medieval Latin secular songs |
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28 Nov 16 - 11:26 PM (#3823400) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Julia L Will Fly--MUST HAVE the words to "Crudite"! Please post! |
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29 Nov 16 - 03:33 AM (#3823409) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Joe Offer Julia, I think it would be more accurate to say that Orff composed Carmina Burana in 1936, using texts from medieval poetry. I would certainly consider Carmina Burana to be a modern composition. There's a performance of "Crudite" here:I can't figure out who the performers are. The Oxford Book of Carols (1928) includes 5 songs from Piae Cantiones, and there are 11 in the New Oxford Book of Carols (1992). One of these is "Flower Carol" (Tempus adest floridae), used by Neale as the melody for his "Good King Wenceslas." The Latin in these songs is fairly simple. I would suspect it was at least partly understood by many Europeans. I knew and understood many Latin hymns I sang in my youth, long before I actually took classes in Latin. -Joe- |
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29 Nov 16 - 03:42 AM (#3823410) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Will Fly Will Fly--MUST HAVE the words to "Crudite"! Please post! Here's them singing it on YouTube: Crudités Enjoy! |
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29 Nov 16 - 04:26 AM (#3823416) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Senoufou Hahahaha! That's hilarious Will! And it made me very hungry. But crudites in French should be pronounced 'croo-dee-tay' not 'croo-day-tay'. (Pedant) I suppose that would spoil the parody with 'gow-day-tay' though. :) |
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29 Nov 16 - 05:00 AM (#3823421) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: Will Fly Yes - I think Mike and Blanche pronounce it that way purposely as a parody on Gow-day-tay. :-) |
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29 Nov 16 - 05:10 AM (#3823423) Subject: Lyrics Add: Crudités From: FreddyHeadey Crudités Lyrics by Pat Goodacre, Jessica Abraham, Blanche Rowen, Mike Gulston. Melody traditional, 15th century Crudités, crudités with crisps as starters Anchovies in virgin oil, crudités Guacamole, caviare, basil and tomata Aubergine and feta dip, taramasalata Gorgonzola, Camembert, tapenade and nachos Button mushrooms à la Greque, croutons in gazpacho Tiramisu, creme brulée, chocolate that melts, a Cheesecake and profiterôles - pass the Alka Seltzer! http://www.rowengulston.co.uk/p/words_6.html |
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29 Nov 16 - 11:00 AM (#3823503) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: leeneia I just listened to four groups performing Gaudete on YouTube. Even though Gaudete means "rejoice", not one group sounds happy. If you ignore the words and listen to the tone, the versions could be describing a battle. I'm so tired of all this earnest, serious stuff. |
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29 Nov 16 - 11:11 AM (#3823504) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,ripov "not happy"; "battle"? - Sounds a bit like Christmas shopping. |
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29 Nov 16 - 05:41 PM (#3823552) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: FreddyHeadey "Joe Offer - PM Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:33 AM ... who the performers are." Ric Sanders , Simon Nicol , Gerry Conway , Dave Pegg , Chris Leslie |
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30 Nov 16 - 04:04 AM (#3823593) Subject: RE: Origins: Gaudete From: GUEST,Dave Interesting that Joe says that the melody for Gaudete sounds modern. People at carol services have commented that some of these tunes are modern, and been surprised to find they are medieval. And I used to think that the genius of Paul MacCartney as a tunesmith was that Yesterday sounds as if it could date from the 14th century. People composed good tunes in medieval times, and they do today. |