|
09 Dec 16 - 10:22 PM (#3825567) Subject: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel Collusion to undermine USA by Russia, Senate and R House McConnel knew and insisted upon silence. Partisanship trumps treason. |
|
09 Dec 16 - 10:37 PM (#3825569) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stilly River Sage That link doesn't work, and I used up my free access trying to find the right article (now I have to get rid of their cookies and start over for the month). Try this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-orders-review-of-russian-hacking-during-presidential-campaign/ |
|
10 Dec 16 - 04:51 AM (#3825588) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton Every country to a larger or smaller extent engages in this. The CIA have been involved in destabilising nations all over the world, or so we have been told for the last fifty years. I doubt the veracity of this particular claim, but I am sure Mr Putin would rather see someone who is prepared to engage with him as US president, than someone who wanted to take us back into the Cold War We in the West are extremely fortunate that Mr Trump and not Mrs Clinton was elected...from a foreign affairs perspective. The domestic situation is for the US people alone to determine. |
|
10 Dec 16 - 07:29 AM (#3825607) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu "I doubt the veracity of this particular claim" You've been 'ad me old china. Stitched up like a kipper (geddit?) |
|
10 Dec 16 - 12:37 PM (#3825651) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel When $ became free speech, when elections are decided by Courts and the Citizens United case allowed foreign $ to be used in super PACs the stage was set for no holds barred from crooked elections. No one doubts the results of the election will not change but what I as an American will call a Constitutional Crises are all the Senators and representatives who willingly support Russian covert actions because they liked the result. Can we prove treason? Only if can prove who knew what and when did they know it - and that is nearly impossible. Comey knew about the Russians efforts hacking only Democrats. All the Intelligence agencies knew for 6 months but Trump throws them under the bus and does not believe or trusts them. A now dismissed trump campaign manager dealt exclusively with Russian business. I always used to think Republicans were knee jerk anti communists but when money is at stake anything goes. Is this a lessor form of treason or worse? I don't know and once Trump takes power, no one will again. |
|
10 Dec 16 - 12:56 PM (#3825655) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel We are technically in a government shutdown until Sunday night, this time due to democratic party demands. But what if the vote does not go the way of Dem Demands? Could the shut down extend through the Inauguration? Probably not but shut downs have gone wrong ( or right for insane partisan reasons ) before. PS There are now Trump transition managers going around and taking names of scientists who hold views on climate change and other anti Trump views. This is how a purge begins. "there's a man goin round takin names" |
|
10 Dec 16 - 01:47 PM (#3825660) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "Every country to a larger or smaller extent engages in this." For **** sake - not more off this Russia has hacked into Hilary Clinton's emails and used them as a spoiler to ruin her chances Where has this ever happened anywhare? "I doubt the veracity of this particular claim," Course yo do - your hero got elected "e in the West are extremely fortunate that Mr Trump and not Mrs Clinton was elected" And there you said it all Jim Carroll |
|
10 Dec 16 - 02:48 PM (#3825672) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Thompson Anti-communist? Russia hasn't been communist for a long time. |
|
10 Dec 16 - 03:17 PM (#3825680) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll Wonder if anybody in the U.S. to demand that this election be fought again? I woulde have thought that foreign interference should make it invalid - it would be in a democracy Maybe the u.S. will be faced by a Trump led coup, supported on the ground by the Ku Klux Klan and in the air by the Russian air-force. Time to send for Bruce Willis, I think..... Jim Carroll |
|
10 Dec 16 - 05:02 PM (#3825695) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton "e in the West are extremely fortunate that Mr Trump and not Mrs Clinton was elected" And there you said it all Jim Carroll. No you devious person, what I actually said was.... "We in the West are extremely fortunate that Mr Trump and not Mrs Clinton was elected...from a foreign affairs perspective. The domestic situation is for the US people alone to determine." If you wish to quote me please do not amend my words to suit your agenda. You also know very well the mayhem the CIA has been sowing throughout the world in our lifetime......these people lie and assassinate as a matter of course. |
|
10 Dec 16 - 05:54 PM (#3825703) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Of this, what The Daily Beast says, you can be sure: "If the CIA had hacked and steered a democratic election in a foreign country, say France or Germany, that country would demand a new election. No question." |
|
10 Dec 16 - 06:55 PM (#3825710) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad And now comes Trump's payoff to Putin: Thumbing Nose at Alleged Kremlin Debt, Trump Picks Putin's Pal as Secretary of State You have to be impressed by Donald Trump's brazenness. Less than 24 hours after the sensational Washington Post report that Russia tried to tilt the elections in his favor, Trump's response is unequivocal and in the world's face: he announces that his candidate for Secretary of State is Rex Tillerson, CEO of oil giant ExxonMobil and the man considered to be the closest American alive to Vladimir Putin. "He's done tremendous deals with Russia," Trump told Fox News on Saturday, without batting an eyelid. Haaretz |
|
10 Dec 16 - 07:04 PM (#3825711) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Yep, THIS says it all. |
|
10 Dec 16 - 08:07 PM (#3825725) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel Rex of Exxon opened up the Gulf of Mexico and artic open water that Russia annexed anyway with an American blessing/money. For this he was awarded the highest civilian Russian medal personally by Putin. Before then the award has only gone to 2 American naval commanders for saving Russian mini sub and Russian citizens for being heroes. While Trump and Putin will NEVER be seen together because Putin looks like a shirtless Smurf that comes up to Donald's elbow / armpit, there is a stranger connection. The Putin connection to Trump is sounding more like a coup than mere brashness. With Giuliani as CIA director investigations will all go away. I was always immune to the red scare and kids here are too young to know but the RED SCARE today are American Congressmen and Senators. PS unrelated: the father of the Koch brothers made a fortune by engineering and managing Russian oil fields for....wait for it ....Stalin. |
|
11 Dec 16 - 04:23 AM (#3825755) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Mr Red All elections are manipulated to some extent. Jed Bush was in charge of the system in Florida and his brother won with a doubt about Florida. What I saw of the choices of ballot paper, it was chosen to confuse and favour those familiar with voting. It worked to, Dubya got in by the skin of a hanging chad. Did Russia interfere? When they poison Georgian presidential hopefuls, annex Crimea and kill people in the UK they don't like - how much of a stretch is it to meddle in - (oh what is the word for covertly spreading lies and deceit?) there isn't a word that fits |
|
11 Dec 16 - 04:32 AM (#3825757) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu Some people seem to have been outright traitorous in this whole business. What we're witnessing is the final corporate takeover of a massive democracy, backed by Russia. Just goes to prove that all those folk with all their guns and bellicosity could not stop their democracy being hijacked by a foreign power intent on installing pliable billionaires and a gaggle-taggle band of racists, climate deniers and idiots in all the positions that might otherwise be occupied by people whom, for all their faults, have given their lives over to public service. How the GOP can let this happen is unbelievable; how has the alt-right managed this? |
|
11 Dec 16 - 04:39 AM (#3825759) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll Two countries have now recently been exposed interfering in another country's Russia in America's (see the Labour Party discussion for the other) Of course the CIA and MI5 have been long-term offenders - it seems to be a growing trend Jim Carroll |
|
11 Dec 16 - 04:48 AM (#3825761) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: DMcG For all the concerns about the appointments, there is built into the American system limits in both the duration of a presidency and in the number of consecutive times you can be president. The trouble really comes to a head when these rules get amended or the powers associated with roles are changed. Now where can I think of that has happened .... |
|
11 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM (#3825809) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton It was not Russia that lost Mrs Clinton the election, it was her irresponsible behaviour in office and the corrupt practices of the Democratic Party. The demise of US capitalism and the rise of globalism left a huge sector of US society wanting change. They have it and good luck to Mr Trump, but it will be extremely difficult to regenerate US industry. If Mr Trump fails the future looks bleak for there is no alternative. |
|
11 Dec 16 - 12:18 PM (#3825820) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Mr Red It was Russia, get over it. |
|
11 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM (#3825823) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Greg F. a huge sector of US society wanting change. Rather like Germany in the 1930's, Ache? good luck to Mr Trump, SIEG HEIL!! HEIL TRUMP! |
|
11 Dec 16 - 12:48 PM (#3825824) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "It was Russia, get over it." Of course it was - would the American people really be that stupid? "They have it and good luck to Mr Trump," Doesn't that just about sum up this feller's political position? I do like the MR TRUMP - real cap-doffing subservience of someone who knows his place Jim Carroll |
|
11 Dec 16 - 12:50 PM (#3825827) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Bee-dubya-ell You're right, it was not Russia that lost Mrs. Clinton the election. Despite the Russians best efforts, almost three million more people voted for Mrs. Clinton than Mr. Trump. What lost Mrs Clinton the election was an antiquated system of choosing the US president: a system that was written into The Constitution largely because of a belief that educated electors would be less likely to hand the reins of power to an unqualified demagogue than would direct election by the unwashed masses. Worked real well, huh? |
|
11 Dec 16 - 03:13 PM (#3825846) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Came across this tweet - it gave me a good laugh: I'm disappointed in Sarah Palin more than any other human being. She saw what Russia was doing from her backyard and chose to do nothing. |
|
11 Dec 16 - 04:58 PM (#3825858) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad From Janis Ian, some interesting facts to consider here: This post is in two parts. I don't care what your politics are; everyone in this country should be concerned about cyber security, and everybody should be concerned when the president-elect buddies up to the former head of the KGB. It's beginning to make sense now. 1. In case you haven't connected the news dots... Putin owns the largest oil company in Russia. He made a 500 Billion dollar deal with the CEO of Exxon Mobil. Obama put sanctions in place which stopped that deal. Russia then hacked into our government in order to get Trump elected. When the CIA told Congress this in September (James Comey was also in that meeting), Mitch McConnell refused to tell the American people, blackmailing Obama saying he would frame it as playing partisan politics during the election. Comey released the infamous no-information letter. Mitch McConnell's wife was picked for Trump's cabinet. The CEO of Exxon is now the frontrunner for Secretary of State. 2. From the NY Times (full URL below): He (Trump) also indicated that as president, he would not take the daily intelligence briefing that President Obama and his predecessors have received. Mr. Trump, who has received the briefing sparingly as president-elect, said that it was often repetitive and that he would take it "when I need it." He said his vice president, Mike Pence, would receive the daily briefing. "You know, I'm, like, a smart person," he said. "I don't have to be told the same thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years." He added that he had instructed the officials who give the briefing: "'If something should change from this point, immediately call me. I'm available on a one-minute's notice.'" http://www.nytimes.com/…/polit…/trump-russia-democrats.html |
|
11 Dec 16 - 05:47 PM (#3825862) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton "What lost Mrs Clinton the election was an antiquated system of choosing the US president: a system that was written into The Constitution largely because of a belief that educated electors would be less likely to hand the reins of power to an unqualified demagogue than would direct election by the unwashed masses. Worked real well, huh? "....... The only problem with that statement BWL is that early on when Mrs Clinton looked like she might actually win the election, the Electoral College was seen by most Democrats as her "trump" card. Didn't hear much moaning about it on Mudcat at that time? The rest of you are just whingers, I would have voted for Mr Sanders had I been a US citizen, but he was cheated by his own Party. Mrs Clinton would have brought us into immediate confrontation with Russia over a proposed Syrian "No Fly Zone" so no sane or politically aware person could have contemplated giving her their vote. Perhaps an isolationist administration based on free trade may reverse the decline in US and most Western economies...It's worth a chance. As Mr Trump famously said "what do you have to lose" |
|
11 Dec 16 - 06:27 PM (#3825868) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: robomatic I recall a couple years back when Transcript leaked re: Ukraine and U.S. State Department cropped up and I submit from the Russian point of view the U.S. encroached on their perceived sphere of interest. The Russians were already peeved at Ukraine moving toward Europe politically. The average Russian is probably all set to approve of any hacking or screwing with American politics. No sympathy there. A good journalist to follow on these matters is Masha Gesson . |
|
11 Dec 16 - 07:15 PM (#3825875) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Former CIA Operative Robert Baer brought up the idea of holding a new election during an appearance on CNN: Baer said, "The Russians, it looks like to me did interfere in our elections. We'll never be able to decide whether they changed the outcome, but I'll tell you having worked in the CIA if we had been caught interfering in European elections, or Asian elections, or anywhere in the world, those countries would call for new elections. Any democracy would. I mean, I don't see it any other way. The Electoral College before the nineteenth has got to know whether the Russians had an effect, Whether they went to Wikileaks, whether they hacked email, and whether they affected American opinion. They had a good reason to go after Hillary Clinton. Putin hates her for the Ukraine. Baer added, "When a foreign country interferes in your election and the outcome is in doubt and the legitimacy of the government. I don't know how it works constitutionally. I'm not a lawyer, constitutional lawyer, but I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that the Russians interfered, and I would like to see the evidence, because if the evidence is there, I don't see any other way than to vote again." |
|
11 Dec 16 - 08:11 PM (#3825881) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Greg F. Heil Trump! |
|
11 Dec 16 - 08:25 PM (#3825884) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: robomatic Heil Trump |
|
11 Dec 16 - 09:50 PM (#3825898) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel This has been a post I have hesitated to make for about a year. For about a year a new cable TV news channel appeared in the DC area. It has been around for 20 years but has had a huge surge in money and distribution since the primaries. It broadcasts mostly Hitler documentaries. Anti Muslim brotherhood shows and bio war videos. What is most shocking is who is behind Newsmax. Some are from the UK, some are Russian but all are Alt Right. It is best to google who owns newsmax but here is a Wiki link Right wing extreme TV War is their policy. Corporate fascism is their vehicle. |
|
12 Dec 16 - 05:44 AM (#3825936) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu "As Mr Trump famously said "what do you have to lose" If you have to ask the question you wouldn't understand the answer. |
|
12 Dec 16 - 08:49 AM (#3825969) Subject: RE: BS:Corporations won election NOT Trump From: Donuel Corporations don't owe the American people a damn thing unless we are on the board. All Trump knows how to do besides bully, is how to cut out the middle man. - YUR FIRED- We can now see clearly that we have only elected Corporations DIRECTLY. Wall St. the military and big Oil is the Cabinet. All hail the Military Industrial Complex. Eisenhower coined the term Congressional Military Industrial Complex. Today Congress only has experience in doing nothing well ! Trump is not unpredictable, we all know what Corporations and Wall St. want. John Mc Cain will not win any battles against Caesar. He too will be bullied and fade away. |
|
12 Dec 16 - 10:00 AM (#3825997) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: gillymor "Corporations don't owe the American people a damn thing unless we are on the board." So true, anyone who thinks Trump is going to roll back the tide of globalism and keep jobs in America is seriously delusional, like the boneheads who voted for him. Big internationals go where they can make the most money period, that is what capitalists do and what Herr Trump himself does. He'll give lip service to protectionism but he'll never get the support of Congress in that regard and American workers won't work for the wages that those reclaimed jobs would pay. |
|
12 Dec 16 - 10:17 AM (#3826000) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu This is the corporate takeover of government; billionaires running a country for their own personal gain, even allowing foreign governments to interfere in the democratic process. They'll have to invent a new name for this type of governance. Sod it, I'll do it: Corporate authoritarianism. |
|
12 Dec 16 - 12:01 PM (#3826021) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel gilly, stu (sounds delicious) This is 5 minutes old. From Trump Tower- China has now been called our ADVERSARY and Russia has been called our Ally. Trump doesn't want to hear from the CIA |
|
12 Dec 16 - 12:37 PM (#3826033) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: meself Trump and the Chinese leadership deserve each other. Unfortunately, it will be the rest of us and them that pay the price for their ambitions. |
|
13 Dec 16 - 08:33 AM (#3826196) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Another dict...er president, Erdogan of Turkey, is playing Trump like a fish on the line. Story here: Turkey's blackmail of Trump |
|
13 Dec 16 - 10:17 AM (#3826235) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu Rex 'not in my backyard' Tillerson, ExxonMobil CEO as Secretary of State. A man whose company not only lied about climate change when they had proof it was happening, but also reconfigured their multinational business to take advantage of the air of science denial, misleading gullible investors own the process. Oh, Tillerson is right up the arse of Putin too. What a coincidence! |
|
13 Dec 16 - 10:34 AM (#3826247) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Exxon has a $500 billion deal in Russia on the shelf due to sanctions imposed by the US for Putin's adventures in Crimea and Ukraine. Gee, do you think those sanctions will be lifted by "President" Trump on the advice of his Secretary of State? |
|
13 Dec 16 - 02:47 PM (#3826323) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel +For all you white nationalists over in the UK you have a partner in Trump Putin and their media machine of the Times, NewsMax, RT and more. Trump automatically defends Russia to the point of calling the CIA and other American agencies full of crap. A generation go the CIA did miss the end of the cold war. They did hire know nothings to start a torture program for Cheney Bush. Now that the CIA has been condemned by Trump is there any hope of reconciliation? Just like retiring MI5, this is weird. |
|
13 Dec 16 - 05:45 PM (#3826344) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton The CIA should have been scrapped years ago, maybe Mr Trump IS the Messiah? Certainly making trade deals is much better than making WAR. US interventionism has cost millions of lives, most of it promoted covertly by the CIA. It has destabilised all of the Middle East and most of North Africa, not to mention the business in Latin America. As I said earlier the world has changed, there is no Cold War between political ideologies, the working class are no more, fragmented and disillusioned, the fight now is against Global Capitalism and that is an issue that left right and centre can unite against. Time you people wakened and realised that like Rip Van Winkle you have been asleep for decades. |
|
13 Dec 16 - 07:48 PM (#3826355) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel I will answer your stupid question. Sigh. No, Trump is not Jewish. He does however worship $. |
|
13 Dec 16 - 08:13 PM (#3826358) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel "From: Donuel - PM Date: 10 Dec 16 - 12:37 PM When $ became free speech, when elections are decided by Courts and the Citizens United case allowed foreign $ to be used in super PACs the stage was set for no holds barred from crooked elections. No one doubts the results of the election will not change but what I as an American will call a Constitutional Crises are all the Senators and representatives who willingly support Russian covert actions because they liked the result. Can we prove treason? Only if can prove who knew what and when did they know it - and that is nearly impossible. Comey knew about the Russians efforts hacking only Democrats. All the Intelligence agencies knew for 6 months but Trump throws them under the bus and does not believe or trusts them." some of the info above is only now legally declassified. I admit American regime change is far bloodier than hacked email with dubious interpretation before an election. "To win an election it is not who has the most votes, its who counts the votes." Vladimir Putin |
|
14 Dec 16 - 04:30 AM (#3826384) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "The CIA should have been scrapped years ago, " Can agree with that but almost certainly not for the same reason as you. I believe them to be an unregulated terrorist organisation there to ascertain that American interests prevail throughout the world - you, I am sure, are pissed off because they've done their job properly this time in blowing the gaff on your friend Trump Trade deals can be as oppressive as war - and even the cause of them. Mutual humanitarian assistance and full co-operation is what is needed - we quite possibly wouldn't be watching the bloodbath that is happening in Alleppo as spectators and doing nothing if we had that. Jim Carroll |
|
14 Dec 16 - 04:36 AM (#3826386) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Stu "the fight now is against Global Capitalism and that is an issue that left right and centre can unite against." But you support Trump, and he represents the worst in global capitalism and is turning the US into a corporate authoritarian state with help from the Russians. How could the left support this? |
|
14 Dec 16 - 05:58 AM (#3826398) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: gillymor Ake got it about half right, Trump is a Mess. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 09:01 AM (#3826415) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel First my condolences go out to the State Department, EPA, Energy, Education HUD , CIA, Interior HHS and the NIH. Second my condolences to all the scientists who will be purged by rumor and prior work with climate change and other issues that conservatives deem unreligious. As I have said the Government is structured to prevent private sweetheart deals. I suggest civil servants keep their had down and cooperate with trusted Justice Dept Constitutional patriots. NO ONE is talking about what is on the horizon. By this Valentines day the Putin Trump alliance will be exposed by a move by Putin and Trump hamstring NATO or by stand down orders. You may think my claims are over the top, but Trump is already compromised. I am not anti Russian in fact I think they deserve their wish to finally have a warm water port in Crimea. The way it is done matters. Having the POTUS literally sell out to Putin for personal profit is not the way it should be done. The actors are in play, only the timing is unsure. What Russia wants is high oil prices. They are beginning to already get that. No more sanctions and annexed territory is next. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 09:03 AM (#3826416) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/07/ukraine-russia-crimea-naval-base-tatars-explainer |
|
14 Dec 16 - 09:31 AM (#3826429) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel "By this Valentines day Putin will make a big move and Trump's alliance with Putin will be exposed by a move by Putin while Trump will react by hamstringing NATO or by simply giving stand down orders through the summer. You may think my claims are over the top, but Trump is already compromised by Putin espionage." This is the kind of prediction conservatives should attack. I wish they would but loyalty to Trump may outrank loyalty to the nation yet again. If you don't get it, just chalk it up to psychic nonsense. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 09:45 AM (#3826434) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce Donuel, I doubt that Trump is any more compromised than Hillary would be. As for standing down, you mean like Obama has been doing in regards to the Russian aggression over the last 8 years? |
|
14 Dec 16 - 09:53 AM (#3826436) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jeri Way to avoid talkin about the subject, Bruce. There's no "Hillary" or "Obama" involved in this. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 10:24 AM (#3826437) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce So Hillary helping the Russians to control most of the Uranium in this country for moneuy does not imply that she would continue to act in their interest, but Trump's past friendships with Putain does? Shame on you, Jeri. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:03 AM (#3826447) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel Good to see you making hay bruce. The US was worn down by the longest lasting wars on several fronts. Syria and the Ukraine were just several wars to many for the country to bear. The US has a terrible record in preventing genocides and holocausts. War mongers have a military Pez toy. They press the button and another war candy pops up. It is unwise to eat them all. Surely you are not jealous of a Russian warm water port that can accommodate Russia's one and only aircraft carrier that needs towing much of the time? I have more evidence regarding Poland that is not classified but expresses the lack of confidence in NATO after Trump tweets. If you have a useful idiot it is important to use them immediately because - they tend to be IDIOTS. They have a tendency to have a short shelf life. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:14 AM (#3826450) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce " The US has a terrible record in preventing genocides and holocausts." AGREED- Especially under Democratic administrations. Conflicts since 1950 with over 10,000 Fatalities (all figures rounded)* 1 40,000,000 Red China, 1949-76 (outright killing, manmade famine, Gulag) 2 10,000,000 Soviet Bloc: late Stalinism, 1950-53; post-Stalinism, to 1987 (mostly Gulag) 3 4,000,000 Ethiopia, 1962-92: Communists, artificial hunger, genocides 4 3,800,000 Zaire (Congo-Kinshasa): 1967-68; 1977-78; 1992-95; 1998-present 5 2,800,000 Korean war, 1950-53 6 1,900,000 Sudan, 1955-72; 1983-2006 (civil wars, genocides) 7 1,870,000 Cambodia: Khmer Rouge 1975-79; civil war 1978-91 8 1,800,000 Vietnam War, 1954-75 9 1,800,000 Afghanistan: Soviet and internecine killings, Taliban 1980-2001 10 1,250,000 West Pakistan massacres in East Pakistan (Bangladesh 1971) 11 1,100,000 Nigeria, 1966-79 (Biafra); 1993-present 12 1,100,000 Mozambique, 1964-70 (30,000) + after retreat of Portugal 1976-92 13 1,000,000 Iran-Iraq-War, 1980-88 14 900,000 Rwanda genocide, 1994 15 875,000 Algeria: against France 1954-62 (675,000); between Islamists and the government 1991-2006 (200,000) 16 850,000 Uganda, 1971-79; 1981-85; 1994-present 17 650,000 Indonesia: Marxists 1965-66 (450,000); East Timor, Papua, Aceh etc, 1969-present (200,000) 18 580,000 Angola: war against Portugal 1961-72 (80,000); after Portugal's retreat (1972-2002) 19 500,000 Brazil against its Indians, up to 1999 20 430,000 Vietnam, after the war ended in 1975 (own people; boat refugees) 21 400,000 Indochina: against France, 1945-54 22 400,000 Burundi, 1959-present (Tutsi/Hutu) 23 400,000 Somalia, 1991-present 24 400,000 North Korea up to 2006 (own people) 25 300,000 Kurds in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, 1980s-1990s 26 300,000 Iraq, 1970-2003 (Saddam against minorities) 27 240,000 Colombia, 1946-58; 1964-present 28 200,000 Yugoslavia, Tito regime, 1944-80 29 200,000 Guatemala, 1960-96 30 190,000 Laos, 1975-90 31 175,000 Serbia against Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, 1991-1999 32 150,000 Romania, 1949-99 (own people) 33 150,000 Liberia, 1989-97 34 140,000 Russia against Chechnya, 1994-present 35 150,000 Lebanon civil war, 1975-90 36 140,000 Kuwait War, 1990-91 37 130,000 Philippines: 1946-54 (10,000); 1972-present (120,000) 38 130,000 Burma/Myanmar, 1948-present 39 100,000 North Yemen, 1962-70 40 100,000 Sierra Leone, 1991-present 41 100,000 Albania, 1945-91 (own people) 42 80,000 Iran, 1978-79 (revolution) 43 75,000 Iraq, 2003-present (domestic) 44 75,000 El Salvador, 1975-92 45 70,000 Eritrea against Ethiopia, 1998-2000 46 68,000 Sri Lanka, 1997-present 47 60,000 Zimbabwe, 1966-79; 1980-present 48 60,000 Nicaragua, 1972-91 (Marxists/natives etc,) 49 51,000 Arab-Israeli conflict 1950-present 50 50,000 North Vietnam, 1954-75 (own people) 51 50,000 Tajikistan, 1992-96 (secularists against Islamists) 52 50,000 Equatorial Guinea, 1969-79 53 50,000 Peru, 1980-2000 54 50,000 Guinea, 1958-84 55 40,000 Chad, 1982-90 56 30,000 Bulgaria, 1948-89 (own people) 57 30,000 Rhodesia, 1972-79 58 30,000 Argentina, 1976-83 (own people) 59 27,000 Hungary, 1948-89 (own people) 60 26,000 Kashmir independence, 1989-present 61 25,000 Jordan government vs. Palestinians, 1970-71 (Black September) 62 22,000 Poland, 1948-89 (own people) 63 20,000 Syria, 1982 (against Islamists in Hama) 64 20,000 Chinese-Vietnamese war, 1979 65 19,000 Morocco: war against France, 1953-56 (3,000) and in Western Sahara, 1975-present (16,000) 66 18,000 Congo Republic, 1997-99 67 10,000 South Yemen, 1986 (civil war) |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:21 AM (#3826452) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel BTW when you take something out of context you take it out of reality. If you were a member of the Tri Lateral Commission you would not accuse Hillary of being a Uranium sales woman. You would owe a debt of gratitude. There are some actions that are not financially driven. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:23 AM (#3826454) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce " If you were a member of the Tri Lateral Commission you would not accuse Hillary of being a Uranium sales woman. You would owe a debt of gratitude." Please expand, or at least explain. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:33 AM (#3826456) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: DMcG Please don't explain, Donuel. Jeri was quite correct. This thread is about Trump and Putin. What Obama did, what Hillary would have done, or Sanders, or Mad Jack McMad are all equally beside the point. It will be Trump and Putin who act for good or ill, not these others. (Blackadder: He's mad! He's mad. He's madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of this year's Mr Madman competition) |
|
14 Dec 16 - 11:39 AM (#3826459) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce Donual, You make charges of treason against Trump for your claim he will do what Clinton actually did? http://www.businessinsider.com/the-clintons-putin-and-uranium-2015-4 DMcG, No, this thread is about what the WP is reporting, and Donual's claims of what HE thinks that Trump will do. I asked for an expansion of what he (the OP) said in reply to MY comment. I think it reasonable to ask for an explanation when his comment is unclear. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 01:30 PM (#3826499) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll Interesting list Bruce especially as it carefully omits to mention the fact that in many cases America not only failed to intervene, but was very much the cause of much of the slaughter Also conveniently missing is the 1,450,000 dead in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia due directly to U.S. invasion of those places No mention of the oil wars dead, Greece, Nicaragua, Chile.... and all the coups and wars instigated or participated in by the U.S. Little wonder really as your uncredited list comes from Daniel Pipes, arch supporter of Israeli terrorism which has been long defended by U.S. vetoes which prevented that terrorist state from facing charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity Anybody can cut-'n- paste such a list, were they inclined to. Jim Carroll |
|
14 Dec 16 - 01:54 PM (#3826504) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll The present conflict in Syria - no sign The Slaughter in Gaza's missing too Isreali perpetrated deaths in Lebanon?? I think the moths got to Danny Boys list Jim Carroll |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:24 PM (#3826511) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel I may have assumed too much. I always thought you capable of more sophistication over time bruce. A brief explanation about U235 is that the devil you know may be better than the devil you don't know. We trust Canada more than other countries but a country with a proven track record in handling fissile material is the next best thing. In this perverted nuclear world we do things to ensure a little more safety despite the inherent danger. Trust a little, trust a lot. But verify. If you ever worked for Grumman or Mc D Douglas you should be pissed right now. If not just keep in the back of your mind that whatever Trump may be guilty of, if it is serious, it won't be public knowledge for 100 years anyway. I know some circumstantial evidence but as I said before I do not know what Trump is guilty of, except for lying. Would you convict based upon overwhelming evidence? We are not supposed to. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:33 PM (#3826513) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel * I meant overwhelming 'circumstantial' evidence. PS Dmc MG x V you are funny is a British sort of way. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:37 PM (#3826514) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce Jimmy boyo, "Also conveniently missing is the 1,450,000 dead in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia due directly to U.S. invasion of those places" 8 1,800,000 Vietnam War, 1954-75 "The Slaughter in Gaza's missing too" 49 51,000 Arab-Israeli conflict 1950-present NOT Israeli, but: 35 150,000 Lebanon civil war, 1975-90 Dounal, I probably know more about U235 than you do. Have you ever looked into a running nuclear reactor? How do you produce U234? |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:40 PM (#3826517) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: beardedbruce Jimmy boyo, As for Syria, this list does NOT include conflicts during Obama's administration. Care to start a list of them? |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:49 PM (#3826525) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Greg F. In the interests of humanity, Can someone please get CowFartBruce back under medical supervision before he injures himself or others? |
|
14 Dec 16 - 02:52 PM (#3826527) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "NOT Israeli, but:" That's what I said - not Israel America didn't fail to prevent the dead of Vietnmam - they directly caused them Gaza "The Occupied Palestinian avoidable deaths since 1950 are estimated from UN Population Division data (2002 revision) at 677,000 and for all of Palestine at 0.677 million x 5.7 million (all Palestinians still within Palestine)/4.1 million (Occupied Palestinians) = 940,000. However we must also include Palestinians outside Palestine and forbidden to return (roughly 2 times those within Palestine) and thus the estimate of post-1950 Palestinian avoidable deaths from imposed deprivation = 0.94 million x 2 = 1.88 million = 1.9 million." Diod't recognise your understandably conservative figures "Jimmy boyo," I would have though from the walloping your counterpart has just received that talking down to people from a mental midget's point of view gets you nowhere Live and learn Jim Carroll |
|
14 Dec 16 - 03:04 PM (#3826532) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel After WWII the USA did save many European lives. It appears the bloom is off that rose. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 04:56 PM (#3826548) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: robomatic The United States saved millions of Russians in the Post WWI Famine. Prime engineer of their salvation: Herbert Hoover. |
|
14 Dec 16 - 05:30 PM (#3826552) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Donuel RE: Election fraud...not voter fraud as gnu said I don't care if you guys swear Some times it is called for Its fun when its all new fare painting pictures forever more Quoth the Raven "Fuck it" |
|
15 Dec 16 - 03:29 AM (#3826598) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "The United States saved millions of Russians in the Post WWI Famine. " They did - they also attempted to bring down the new Government, including participating in The Civil War on thee side of those wishing to send the people back into the War by invading Murmansk, Archangel, and Vladivostok. The Soviet Government was not recognised till 1933, ironically when Stalin had his feet well under the table and was beginning to dismantle Socialism and remove opposition - hardly conducive with peaceful coexistence. Aid from America seldom came without a demand for something in return. Jim Carroll |
|
20 Dec 16 - 11:54 AM (#3827605) Subject: BS: WaPo declares Worst Candidate From: beardedbruce https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/12/20/the-worst-candidate-of-2016/?utm_term=.541704b9def2 "Candidates matter. We learned that lesson for the umpteenth time over the past two years as races — from the presidential on down — turned on the quality of the candidates. As a consultant put it to me a long time ago: If the dog doesn't like the dog food, it doesn't matter how good the marketing campaign for it is." |
|
20 Dec 16 - 12:55 PM (#3827612) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Iains Syrian troops threaten to enter last sliver of Aleppo's rebel-held territory. Washington post breaking news. Syrian troops threaten to enter last sliver of Aleppo's rebel-held territory Superb example of press distortion trying to demonize the legitimate government forces and allies. I find the comments section quite enlightening, especially the comment about the coverage of events in Mosul. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 02:31 PM (#3827643) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton Yes Iains, isn't it strange that people never recognise propaganda when it comes from what they see as their own side. As I said years ago Assad had to be supported, not only as he represents the legitimate government, but only he has boots on the ground to fight the war and deal with the terrorists. If we had tried to support the jihadists by imposing a no fly zone, Syria would be another hornets nest like Libya and Iraq and we would in all probability be in a state of cold war with Russia. "liberal ideology" is a menace to world peace. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 02:41 PM (#3827646) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "Superb example of press distortion trying to demonize the legitimate government forces and allies." I can't believe you are defending Assad - the man who has a two decade long record of torturing and murdering his opponents, shooting down the people of Homs and using chemical weapons on them - all reorted by world press, U.N. and Amnesty. I have no problem at all believing Ake supports it though Assad is a monster AMNEST INTERNATIONAL Jim Carroll |
|
20 Dec 16 - 03:19 PM (#3827651) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad A government that orders it's security forces to shoot unarmed protesters has forfeited it's legitimacy. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 03:35 PM (#3827652) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Iains and of course all the sources you quote were there at the time, saw all these events unfold and faithfully reported every nuance. Sorry Jim, I was in Damascus when it all kicked off and for several years before. I do not believe Assad is a saint anymore than I believe the more extreme views presented by you. The truth lies somewhere in between well muddied by foreign interference and manipulation. If the true reason to topple Assad was merely the fact he was regarded as a bad boy, surely in terms of some of his neighbours his regime was far from being the worst. Britain supplies cluster bombs to Saudi to wipe out innocent Yemenis and gets all hoity toity when the legitimate Syrian government and it's allies decide that the best cure for terrorism is extermination. America and its allies adopt exactly the same tactics in Mosul and we are supposed to applaud them for saving civilisation. It is a funny world we inhabit. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 03:53 PM (#3827654) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad Some eyewitness accounts here: Syria: Defectors Describe Orders to Shoot Unarmed Protesters |
|
20 Dec 16 - 03:56 PM (#3827655) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Iains Bobad. If law and order ever broke down in Britain and the government was fighting for its survival I do not think your views would gain either an audience or sympathy from them. They would do precisely what they felt they had to do and if that involved shooting into a crowd I for one would go looking for cover rather than argue the toss. It is not as though this behaviour is without precedent. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 04:54 PM (#3827660) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad If you want to call a peaceful protest in a town square a break down of law and order and imply that the protesters deserve to be killed I have to respectfully disagree with you. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 04:57 PM (#3827661) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Iains I think my qualifiers made for something a tad more severe than you are proposing. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 05:26 PM (#3827665) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: bobad You are right I went too far in saying that you implied that the protesters deserve to be killed. What I should have said is that you imply that the security forces are justified in firing on them. |
|
20 Dec 16 - 06:57 PM (#3827674) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Iains If other means of dispersal fail and the situation escalates then what else do you use? A sprinkling of fairy dust and a years subscription to the Guardian? |
|
21 Dec 16 - 07:56 AM (#3827743) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll "and of course all the sources you quote were there at the time, saw all these events unfold and faithfully reported every nuance." I don't know how long you were in Damascus but Assad has been filling his torture chambers for at least two decades and has ben reported doing so - and Britain has been helping him. Sorry - unless you can show a definite in to what is going on - I'd much rather take Amnesty's word than yours They in fact do have people there and update their information regularly Assad is a monster - you are defending a monster Jim Carroll |
|
21 Dec 16 - 08:41 AM (#3827751) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: akenaton Iains is right, any armed revolt in the UK, the US, or any other "civilised" nation would be put down by the killing of their own people. You forget that even before the war Assad was dealing not with malleable socialists or democratic protesters, but with half mad Jihadi's, many different factions all fighting among themselves like ferrits in a sack. Our way of life, our democratic systems, do not work amongst Islamic Fundamentalists.....of course you know that, or should know that after the debacles in Iraq and Libya........but its the only prop you have for your crazy ideology. |
|
21 Dec 16 - 09:08 AM (#3827758) Subject: RE: BS: Washington Post breaking news From: Jim Carroll Torture or massacre of opponents - even the worst of them - has always been a war crime and rightly so - to accept it is to descend into barbarism No wonder you said mass-murderer Breivik had something worth listening to The people who were being massacred in Homs were civilians and those being tortured and disappeared beforehand were demanding civil rights You are rapidly establishing yourself as a full blown Nazi Ake - feel free to keep it up Jim Carroll |
