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BS: Theresa May's new year message

01 Jan 17 - 02:11 PM (#3829862)
Subject: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I like the message. Not quite sure what a lot of it means but, if the words "We all want to see a Britain that is stronger than it is today," May says. "We all want a country that is fairer so that everyone has the chance to succeed. We all want a nation that is safe and secure for our children and grandchildren. These ambitions unite us, so that we are no longer the 52% who voted leave and the 48% who voted remain, but one great union of people and nations with a proud history and a bright future. So when I sit around the negotiating table in Europe this year, it will be with that in mind – the knowledge that I am there to get the right deal not just for those who voted to leave, but for every single person in this country." are true then surely she is on a winner.

I find it difficult to reconcile the message of a right wing prime minister with fairness but should we be giving her a chance?

Cheers

DtG


01 Jan 17 - 02:17 PM (#3829865)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: punkfolkrocker

.. will the ultra right wing nutters in her party give her a chance...???


01 Jan 17 - 02:18 PM (#3829866)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Dunno PFR. Good point though.

DtG


01 Jan 17 - 02:29 PM (#3829867)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Joe Offer

I wonder how it is, that the nutters got in a place wnere they could bully us all. Theresa May seems reasonable much of the time, but Farage talks like he thinks he's PM.
And here in the US, the bully actually got elected.


01 Jan 17 - 02:37 PM (#3829869)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Well said, Joe. I am left wing politically but if May does follow up on this I will take of my hat to her. Let us drop partisan politics and support whoever does the best job for everyone.

DtG


01 Jan 17 - 03:37 PM (#3829876)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: David Carter (UK)

If she wants to get the right deal by me she should be pursuing the idea of associate EU citizenship for those who want it, as floated by Goerens and Verhofstadt. I would certainly be prepared to pay for this.


01 Jan 17 - 05:17 PM (#3829883)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Empty talk, Dave. A Tory is a Tory. Self-interest, tax breaks for tbe rich, sod tbe poor and tbe sick.


01 Jan 17 - 06:35 PM (#3829888)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Joe Offer

I dunno, Steve. Does it have to be so? Could it be that some people on the other side have wisdom?


01 Jan 17 - 07:17 PM (#3829898)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

It is so, whether it has to be or not. You're a Tory because you think the unemployed, the sick, the disabled and the poor need to be shat on, that the trade unions should be emasculated, that workers' rights should be abolished (roll out the euphemisms such as "the flexible labour market"), that the NHS should be privatised for profit and that working people are there to make profits for people who are already much richer than they are. You are a Tory because you think that housing benefits should be cut for the poorest people, that it isn't important to build affordable homes and that private landlords should have free rein to do whatever they like. You're a Tory if you handle non-doms, tax evaders and bankers with a very light and indulgent touch. You're a Tory if you believe that it was right for the poorest to suffer most under austerity for almost a decade whilst the richest were left alone. Does it have to be that way? Well what do you suggest we do to change it?

Theresa May is a Tory right down to whichever pair of her posh shoes you wish to contemplate. So ask her, not me. But be assured that her balm-laden speech was bereft of any honest intent to change things for the vast majority of people for the better. If you think I'm being too cynical, ask me again on Dec 31 and I guarantee that you will think I wasn't being cynical enough.


02 Jan 17 - 12:58 AM (#3829925)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Backwoodsman

She's Thatcher's spawn. Trust her at your peril. Unless you're a multi-millionaire, of course, in which case you can trust her.


02 Jan 17 - 03:20 AM (#3829933)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Sorry Dave - did I miss something?
What exactly did she say other than the usual politicians waffle - jobs, industry, homelessness, inequality..... ?
It was totally devoid of practical proposals of how to get out of the mess Brexit has created.
A sort of non-royal Queen's speech.
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 04:07 AM (#3829936)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

I think the point Joe is that wisdom does not come into the equation.
The economic system we employ only works if it is allowed to run at peak efficiency, low taxation produces wealth but does not provide for the poor or those surplus to requirements.
A socialist system requires high taxation or a large cut in living standards for the middle class, neither of which would at the moment be acceptable.
A society which takes into account the environment, the lack of resources and the welfare of its people may evolve at some point if humanity survives to see it, but the incessant war between the "two wings of the same bird" as promoted by Mr Shaw, only makes that point much more difficult to reach.


02 Jan 17 - 04:13 AM (#3829937)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: David Carter (UK)

No you didn't miss anything Jim, apart from what wasn't there which was any substance behind the soundbite. European politicians, being a shade more empathetic, have aired a possible solution for those of us who wish to remain engaged with and in Europe. May so far has refused to engage.


02 Jan 17 - 04:50 AM (#3829939)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Ache, I don't know which wings of what bird you're on about but what I do know is that you and the Trump/Farage axis are two cheeks of the same unwashed arse.


02 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM (#3829941)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"A socialist system requires high taxation or a large cut in living standards "
Simplistic nonsense
A socialist system requires a total reconstruction of society - if it won't work now, when will it work
Society is becoming more divided and the lower sections more and more impoverished and subservient to the State - that is never going to evolve into anything but totalitarianism.
No speeches by Iron Ladies (even the ones wearing velvet gloves) is ever going to change that.
Your analysis is like religion - things might be miserable now, but put up with it and you'll eventually pass on to a better place.
Socialism has always ended up in the hands of people who sing "Somewhere, over the rainbow" - all advocates of knowing our place.
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 07:43 AM (#3829959)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

It was just that bit that I quoted, Jim. I suspect that you and Steve are right and is just empty promises, but the question I posed was should we give her a chance.

As you know, my politics do lean to the left but I am also impressed by the way things can be done elsewhere - The inclusion of board level employee representation in some European countries for instance or the socialist entrepreneurship of people like Elon Musk. We have seen that unrestricted capitalism is a disaster, but so were the the early communist models. In Russia and China for instance. Surely there has to be a way to utilise the good bits of currently opposing systems?

Cheers

DtG


02 Jan 17 - 07:54 AM (#3829960)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Up the revolution! is not the answer Jim.
It will be a slow learning curve if we ever make a start, but smearing and demonising our fellow citizens because they have an alternative view at present, only delays progress.

Just look at Steve's latest rant, "You're a Tory because you think the unemployed, the sick, the disabled and the poor need to be shat on, that the trade unions should be emasculated, that workers' rights should be abolished (roll out the euphemisms such as "the flexible labour market"), that the NHS should be privatised for profit and that working people are there to make profits for people who are already much richer than they are. You are a Tory because you think that housing benefits should be cut for the poorest people, that it isn't important to build affordable homes and that private landlords should have free rein to do whatever they like. You're a Tory if you handle non-doms, tax evaders and bankers with a very light and indulgent touch. You're a Tory if you believe that it was right for the poorest to suffer most under austerity for almost a decade whilst the richest were left alone. Does it have to be that way? Well what do you suggest we do to change it?"
Do you think he really means that...that all conservatives are evil beasts, do you think he understands that in this economic system if wealth is not created society dies?
There is nothing fair or egalitarian about corporate capitalism, but at least the conservatives attempt to run it efficiently.
When the centre left were last in power they spent all the money and ran for cover, leaving a heap of shit behind.

The capitalist system is finished in the developed West, that is how the system works it moves on to greener pastures.....but who clings on hardest to the illusion? The "liberal" left.


02 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM (#3829961)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

There is no economic system that can eliminate capital. The most basic economic equation is to try to divide limited resources amongst unlimited wants and that is done by careful manipulation of the three fundamental 'economic gods' of capital, labour and natural resource. To say that either capital or labour can provide the solution on their own has proven to be false. Natural resource is the one that is now being brought to the fore as it becomes more obvious that we will run out. People wanting these resources will fight for them; the most powerful will win and, as ever, ordinary people are ones who will suffer most. Global resources must be just that. Global. Localisation or nationalistic ownership of any of these resources will make matters worse. True globalisation and properly managing the worlds resources, including labour and capital, must be given priority.

But don't ask me how. My economics degree course was cancelled after a few weeks due to lack of interest :-(

DtG


02 Jan 17 - 08:19 AM (#3829963)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"but the question I posed was should we give her a chance."
They've all had their chances a thousand times over - how many more times do we trust these maggots of society?
If we can't get a society for all, we need a say in our lives that puts an end to the slide into extremism.
Ake rants about socialism not being acceptable yet, following the war, probably the last decent Labour Government introduced a series of revolutionary changes to our lives - social housing, accessible health care for all paid or from our taxes and very limited nationalisation of industry, all violently opposed by the Tories... this was within my lifetime.
It made a tremendous difference to people like us - I could get treatment for my two bouts of diphtheria caused by the appalling two-room conditions we were living in in Anfield, my parents no longer worried about getting enough food to feed us, we eventually moved into our own flat in Speke and later into a house in Kirkby..... - not a revolution, but a totally new life for us and ours.
I suggest, for those who haven't already, try and see Ken Loach's magnificent documentary, 'The Spirit of '45'.
Later Governments, Labour and Conservative, allowed those gains to fall into disrepair (with the exception of health - which was a bone they could never take back) and along came Thatcher, who respectablised greed and formalised a divided society of haves and have-nots.
Even the most benevolent of the Tories ("The Wets"), were appalled a what she did; I still look back with admiration at Harold McMillan's description of her "selling off the family silver".
None of this happened because "the people were not ready for it" as Ake insists, but because Thatcher took Britain as far to the right as it has ever been, before or since.
Her admiration for Pinochet and her description of him as "a hero of democracy", was an indication of how far she was prepared to go if anybody got in her was 9in the end, even her own colleagues found her an EMBARRASSMENT
Those changes are needed again - things can simply not go on as they are without a radical shift - either to the extreme right or to the not-so-extreme left.
At least one contributor here has made his mind up on that one!!
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 08:39 AM (#3829968)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Don't get me wrong here, Jim. In principle I agree with what you say about the number of chances they have had but, as you said yourself, there have been Tories who were not like Thatcher. I have a particular hatred of how the present and last administration simply wrote of those who could not find work and tried to lay the blame for all our ills on immigration. The politics of fear and hatred seem to have crept out of the gutter and found a new high that even the iron lady would have been amazed at!

The line that I find most significant in your last post is If we can't get a society for all, we need a say in our lives that puts an end to the slide into extremism. I think we should concentrate on that. Let us try the economics of compassion and responsibility which, to be honest, have been proven to be more efficient that slavery anyway! It can be done and works very well in some places.

Maybe May has seen that they have gone to far and is attempting to apply the brakes? Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part. But, whichever is true, it is what we have for the next few years so any little bit that will slow down that slide into extremism is going to help.

Cheers

DtG


02 Jan 17 - 08:40 AM (#3829969)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Are Tories all evil beasts? Well there are two reasons for voting Tory. First, maybe you don't really understand politics. My Grandad worked in Salford docks all his life, brought up his family in that dirty old town and always voted Tory because the priests from the pulpit told him to. Second, you think that the Tories will be good for you first and the rest can go hang. The Tories will always excuse your inclination to selfishness, greed and looking after Number One. Oh yes, the apologists will tell you that the Tories run the country "more efficiently." Don't believe a word of it. Since the war, the Tories have always presided over the highest inflation, the worst recessions and the highest unemployment, they sold off the nationalised industries for far less than they were worth in order to make us "a share-owning democracy" (in other words, Tory voters for life), they wrecked our manufacturing industry for ideological motives and they let loose the spivs in the City who eventually wrecked the economy at no cost to themselves (thanks for not intervening, Tony Blair). So I'd say that the average sentient Tory does indeed have a streak of evil. Not all evil, not necessarily beasts, but more than happy to excuse that streak in themselves. And to thank the Lord for their good fortune on Sunday mornings as likely as not.


02 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM (#3829970)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

The phone rang before I'd finished that. Meant to add that the bumbling idiots also managed to inadvertently get us ditched out of Europe. Nice legacy, soft-faced Call-Me-Dave.


02 Jan 17 - 09:04 AM (#3829974)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

always voted Tory because the priests from the pulpit told him to.

Shite.


02 Jan 17 - 09:09 AM (#3829975)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Stu

"but smearing and demonising our fellow citizens because they have an alternative view at present, only delays progress."

""liberal academic elite"

Streuth.


02 Jan 17 - 09:47 AM (#3829983)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"always voted Tory because the priests from the pulpit told him to"
I grew up in this culture - many of my relatives on my mother's side did exactly this.
This still prevailed into the 1960s in Liverpool (obviously not in Hertford, where people there speak for the rest of Britain apparently)
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 09:53 AM (#3829985)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

So not "shite" then, Keith. What I said is absolutely true. Cheers, Jim. Maybe Keith was just expressing the leafy suburbs side of the story.


02 Jan 17 - 10:07 AM (#3829991)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Greg F.

You're a Tory because you think the unemployed, the sick, the disabled and the poor need to be shat on, that the trade unions should be emasculated, that workers' rights should be abolished... & etc.

Just like the current crop of Republicraps put in power by idiot U.S. voters.

I find it difficult to reconcile the message of a right wing prime minister with fairness

Apparently she can lie just as shamelessly and as well as Trump.

the question I posed was should we give her a chance.

Should one "give Trump a chance"?

I think not, in either case.

See    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/05/opinion/trumps-agents-of-idiocracy.html


02 Jan 17 - 10:10 AM (#3829993)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

There is no excuse, Mr Corbyn promotes a very watered down version of socialism, but even that is rejected by the vast majority of the voters.......and you have the audacity to question my statement that we are not ready for an systemic change.

As I have said, Mr Corbyn's job is to educate the population on what socialism really means.....and you better start praying that someone "electable" does not become Labour Party leader by default.


02 Jan 17 - 10:23 AM (#3829999)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Meaningless drivel.


02 Jan 17 - 10:30 AM (#3830002)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Well, the village idiot cant understand it, so it must be accurate.


02 Jan 17 - 10:42 AM (#3830006)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Meaningless drivel."
Absolutely - ask him what he thinks of public ownership - or people of a different colour or religion moving to Britain, or the things mass-murderer Breivik said that were worth listening to, or the good things about Assad's torture chambers, or Donald Trum as 2016 Man of the Yaer....
All genuflected to by this "socialist"
"Mr Corbyn's job is to educate the population on what socialism really means"
Patronising shite - he's a socialist, not a missionary spreading teh good word to 'savages'
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM (#3830007)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Theresa May, in her £995 trousers, couldn't give a damn about those at the bottom of the ladder. She's done nothing to help the homeless, those caught up in the horror of the now almost evil Welfare State created by IDS, Cameron & Osborne.

She also doesn't give a damn about the 1950s women (1960s women too) who've had SIX and SEVEN YEARS added to their pension age, without govt even bothering to inform us, govt having to actually admit this now.

She is a 60 year old woman herself, so she knows full well we were not told.

She knows of the horrors facing many women now, women who've paid over 40 years of NI, who are now thrust into the Benefits System and she doesn't care one iota about any of us.

She is, in my view, another Thatcher, utterly absorbed with herself and her chums, who puts more thought into her shoes, than her People, and who spends more on one pair of shoes, or trousers, than very many of her people have to live on for a whole month, or even two months.

She is A Putrid Chief, like every Tory leader before her and some Labour leaders too.

Corbyn is the nearest we have to a REAL chief, for he at least CARES about The People, and they sense this, know that he is different from the rest.

I'm tired of Mentally Deraged Feckers running ANY country, or being in ANY positions of power and there should be some kind of mental health checks to ensure that those who have NO emapthy, compassion, shame nor guilt, are EVER allowed into positions of power.

As for Trump, well, at least the world is about to get one helluva lesson about Narcissistic Personality Disorder in the coming years, if he lasts that long, for this is a game to him, a huge game...and he won't be able to take the criticism coming his way once he becomes President.

To put such a man in charge of a nuclear button beggars belief, but then May seems itching to use Trident too, of course...

Meanwhile, the homeless remain homeless, the sick, disabled and unemployed ground through the system of terror, alongside we 1950s/60s women, who are denied our state pensions, by this woman too, who is, needless to say, a feminist, (spit!) whilst they roll over in their money, watch their pals making £fortunes, as The People die....

Bastille II anyone?

Anyone know any songs about Madame Guillotine?

Her words are EMPTY, just as they were when she uttered them outside No 10. She is also wholly unelected, thus, surely, anything she does can be declared illegal.....?

We're in deep shite, as is USA, but Crazy Horse saw it all coming...and if nothing else, it's woken many up, for the first time in decades.


02 Jan 17 - 10:58 AM (#3830008)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

'Deranged'


02 Jan 17 - 11:04 AM (#3830010)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I really think that people are talking different languages at times. A great deal of fuss was made on more than one of my threads about this being a discussion forum and about how the rules of debate work. Yet here we are again using the same terms to mean entirely different things. Socialist means one thing to me, and to others I expect, yet to some it means supporting Trump and Farage. Liberal means one thing politically and another socially. Being liberal socially is, I always understood, to be accepting and tolerant. Yet here it is again being used as a derogatory term. If we do not even speak the same language, how can we ever possibly reach an agreement? If we cannot reach an agreement, even if it is just to differ, what is the point of the discussion?

Cheers

DtG


02 Jan 17 - 11:07 AM (#3830011)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for dropping by, Lizzie. Have a look at the 'usual suspects' thread too. It is all about trying to find common ground.

Cheers

DtG


02 Jan 17 - 11:25 AM (#3830012)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim, I don't give a stuff what colour or religion immigrants are, just so that we have some control of the numbers and status of those who come here......your remark is a downright lie.

As is the rest of your post.


02 Jan 17 - 11:38 AM (#3830014)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Greg F.

Germaine to "giving them a chance":

But this debacle didn't come out of nowhere. We've been on the road to stan-ism for a long time: an increasingly radical G.O.P., willing to do anything to gain and hold power, has been undermining our political culture for decades.

People tend to forget how much of the 2016 playbook had already been used in earlier years. Remember, the Clinton administration was besieged by constant accusations of corruption, dutifully hyped as major stories by the news media; not one of these alleged scandals turned out to involve any actual wrongdoing. Not incidentally, James Comey, the F.B.I. director whose intervention almost surely swung the election, had previously worked for the Whitewater committee, which spent seven years obsessively investigating a failed land deal.

People also tend to forget just how bad the administration of George W. Bush really was, and not just because it led America to war on false pretenses. There was also an upsurge in cronyism, with many key posts going to people with dubious qualifications but close political and/or business ties to top officials. Indeed, America botched the occupation of Iraq in part thanks to profiteering by politically connected businesses.

The only question now is whether the rot has gone so deep that nothing can stop America's transformation into Trumpistan.

One thing is for sure: It's destructive as well as foolish to ignore the uncomfortable risk, and simply assume that it will all be O.K.

It won't.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/opinion/america-becomes-a-stan.html


02 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM (#3830023)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, I don't give a stuff what colour or religion immigrants are,"
Maybe not - you just don't like foreigners
You suggested Breivik was making points worth listening to
You appeased Assad's record as a torturer and mass murderer on the Syrian thread
You are an outright Trump supporter and have not long suggested that the Democrats are making his job difficult, making you a hater of democracy as well as liberalism
You have persisted in attacking homosexuals as disease carrying perverts who have chosen their life-style
Long after the establishment outlawed the practice of making asylum seekers wear armbands, you continued to propose it.
You claim to be a socialist - the nearest you come to this is National Socialism - tried, tested, found wanting ( six million witnesses to prove it) and defeated in a World War.
I'm tired of you people squealing "liar" when someone repeats what you say - You are what you are - live with the fact that you've long blown your cover.
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM (#3830027)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, why do you always try to smear other members instead of just discussing the issues.
Your "memories" of what people have said in the past are highly unreliable. Why bring up ancient, unrelated discussions when involved in a current discussion?
If you can not debate what is actually said here, why post at all?


02 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM (#3830029)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

How odd Lizzie, in that diatribe not one word about the person who raided the pension funds to buy votes to keep himself and Labour in power.

Should we give the current Prime Minister a chance - of course we should, we have after all given all her predecessors a chance, Blair after all was given three chances. As to the current Prime Minister being right wing, I would think "Centre-Right" is a more accurate description.

Shaw's posts to this thread are rather revealing - A great believer in stereotypes and mass generalisations is Steve - a ideological bigot who can be told nothing and who is prepared to learn nothing, as nothing but his own view is acceptable.


02 Jan 17 - 12:44 PM (#3830032)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, why do you always try to smear other members instead of just discussing the issues."
You are free to challenge anything I said Keith - I have described accurately what Ake has claimed and it has relevance here - we need to know who we are talking to
I don't need to "smear" you people - you do that far more adequately than I ever could
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 12:46 PM (#3830033)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I thought it was perfectly acceptable practice to smear ones opponents nowadays. Hilary Clinton is a criminal. Brendan Fox is an extremist. Or is it only OK for high profile right wing politicians to do it?

:D tG


02 Jan 17 - 12:54 PM (#3830034)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

Theresa May is an Actress.
Ronald Reagan was an actor, both of them represent the Establishment, neither of them represent the dispossessed, or care a jot about the less well off, I think she is a hypocrite.


02 Jan 17 - 01:56 PM (#3830046)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Theresa May is an Actress - Ronald Reagan was an actor.
A MAY TRUMP REMAKE MAYBE - WADDYA THINK?
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 02:28 PM (#3830051)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well Shaw''s posts to this thread may well be revealing but you failed to say in what way and to provide chapter and verse on what they revealed to you and how. That makes your New Year distemper rather revealing, ironically. Have another vat of Brew 11.

"Should we give the current Prime Minister a chance - of course we should, we have after all given all her predecessors a chance, Blair after all was given three chances."

Indeed, though Blair was given three chances by THE ELECTORATE. May has yet to be given even one chance by THE ELECTORATE. .


02 Jan 17 - 03:24 PM (#3830058)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"bLAIR"
Before this becomes a "Your politicians are more dishonest than my politicians" competition - is it not a fact that the way things stand, it doesn't matter what party they belong to, they are nearly all as dishonest as one another and the sham system of "democracy" we live under allows them to thrive, even encourages it with features like lobbying - they are nearly all self-servers and the best of them are incompetent
They promise, get elected and immediately forget what they promised - sort of as if The Men in Black came along with their memory eraser thingies and zapped them.
Pointing to others doesn't make them any less lying scumbags
Make the bastards accountable or don't vote for any of them.
I'm not an anarchist, but I am a strong supporter of their slogan - "don't vote for them, it only encourages them.
Continuing to ignore what they are perpetuates their dishonesty
Jim Carroll


02 Jan 17 - 05:14 PM (#3830071)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim your post of 2nd Jan 17 12:20pm is a pack of lies and misrepresentation.

I just do not know why this person is allowed to make these disgraceful charges.......I challenge him to quote accurately and in context any of these things that I am supposed to have said.
Jim, your anger and bewilderment increases by the day, don't you think it may be worth your while to check what has actually been said rather than try the old intimidation technique?


02 Jan 17 - 05:20 PM (#3830072)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

The only thing which you have got right is that the Democrats are trying to make the transition of power as difficult as possible.
There is no doubt on that score.


03 Jan 17 - 03:30 AM (#3830100)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

"though Blair was given three chances by THE ELECTORATE. May has yet to be given even one chance by THE ELECTORATE"

Ah so exactly the same as Gordon Brown then Shaw.

"is it not a fact that the way things stand, it doesn't matter what party they belong to, they are nearly all as dishonest as one another and the sham system of "democracy" we live under allows them to thrive, even encourages it with features like lobbying - they are nearly all self-servers and the best of them are incompetent
They promise, get elected and immediately forget what they promised" - Jim Carroll


My view of the entire crop of "professional" politicians we seem to be lumbered with these days Jim and had you bothered to read my post in conjunction with the one written and posted by Lizzie Cornish you would find that I was providing precisely the balance you point out above.


03 Jan 17 - 04:08 AM (#3830107)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I challenge him to quote accurately and in context any of these things that I am supposed to have said."
I linked you to several of them which you deny making - you accepted them, I saw little point in repeating the exercise
You said what you said about Breivik; that he was making a point worth listening to - want me to dig it out again?
You supported making refugees wear Identification tags and described the protests as "a storm in a teacup" - want me to dig it out again?
You support Trump and have said the Democrats are making things hard for him to Govern - no point in digging that one out - you are still at it.
You appeased Assad's behaviour along with newbie Iains - want me to dig it out again?
You constantly attack homosexuals and have describe their "dangerous" and "chosen lifestyle as "disease carrying" - you are notorious for your obsessive hatred of these people so there seems little point in digging it out, but I will give a selection if you would like to review it   
What exactly of these did I make up?
I'm getting fed up with both you and Keith saying thing then calling me a liar when I repeat them
I don't lie and would be extremely stupid to do so on a site where what is written is retrievable
I may be ignorant on many topics, but I'm neither stupid or dishonest
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 04:26 AM (#3830110)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Thompson

Isn't it funny the way people have started saying "I sit around the table" - is it to do with the increase in obesity? Surely she means "when I sit at the table"?


03 Jan 17 - 05:17 AM (#3830117)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, I do not think smearing is reasonable behaviour, and it certainly has no place here.

Jim, Why bring up ancient, unrelated discussions when involved in a current discussion?
If you can not debate what is actually said here, why post at all?


03 Jan 17 - 06:13 AM (#3830120)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

"... Blair was given three chances by THE ELECTORATE. May has yet to be given even one chance by THE ELECTORATE"

Ah so exactly the same as Gordon Brown then Shaw.


Absolutely! Brown, Blair, May, three cheeks of the same arse! Imagine that!


03 Jan 17 - 06:18 AM (#3830121)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, Why bring up ancient, unrelated discussions when involved in a current discussion?"
Because it explains where people like you, who have something to hide, are coming from
You will live with your Muslim cultural implant = sexual pervert and Jewish Plot statements as long as you contribute to this forum - live with it
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 07:08 AM (#3830128)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I do not think smearing is reasonable behaviour, and it certainly has no place here.
"You are forever calling things you don't agree with as "made up shit" - isn't that "smearing" or is it ok when you do it?
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 08:07 AM (#3830139)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim, what you have given is your opinion of what I meant, an opinion with which I strongly disagree.

Please quote me accurately and in context, then I may be able to relieve your obvious confusion.

You are a disgrace Jim.


03 Jan 17 - 08:20 AM (#3830140)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

You've had this Ake and have already acknowleged some of it - I really have no intention of doing it again and f****** up this thread
You are what you are
"You are a disgrace Jim."
And you are a Nazi
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 10:00 AM (#3830150)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

I really have no intention of doing it again and f****** up this thread
Too late!


03 Jan 17 - 10:46 AM (#3830156)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Stu

Again.


03 Jan 17 - 10:54 AM (#3830158)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: bobad

It's what he does.


03 Jan 17 - 11:10 AM (#3830160)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
"You are forever calling things you don't agree with as "made up shit" - isn't that "smearing" or is it ok when you do it?

It is not smearing if it is true.
I always give the actual quote and have never been shown to be wrong.


03 Jan 17 - 11:46 AM (#3830167)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

So, it is not smearing if it is true? What if it is neither corroborated nor proven? Such as Brendan Cox being an extremist? Or Hilary Clinton being a criminal?

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 11:51 AM (#3830170)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Stu

They're all as bad as each other.


03 Jan 17 - 11:55 AM (#3830171)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Never been shown to be wrong? I demonstrated until I was blue in the face that you lied about Wheatcroft. You are currently lying about the attitude of US citizens to Israeli settlements in the Labour thread. Apart from a couple of your cronies here, Keith, we all know that nothing you ever say can be relied on. The truth is routinely subservient to your need to win. Hopeless.


03 Jan 17 - 12:21 PM (#3830175)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,

Never been shown to be wrong? I demonstrated until I was blue in the face that you lied about Wheatcroft.


Not true Steve. You claimed I had misrepresented what Wheatcroft said, but in fact I quoted the relevant passage in full and verbatim.

Dave,
Such as Brendan Cox being an extremist?

What Farage actually said, "Well he would know more about extremists than me" was Nigel Farage's response to a criticism levelled at him by Mr Cox on Twitter.

He claimed that Brendan's organisation had used violence to disrupt UKIP events.

Or Hilary Clinton being a criminal?

Was she technically in breach of the laws governing security?
If she was it is technically a true statement and not a smear.


03 Jan 17 - 12:44 PM (#3830179)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

If Brendan Cox is an extremist, why has he not been arrested? If Hilary Clinton is a criminal, why is she not in prison? Maybe a true statement is not a smear but there are ways of besmirching someone's character that is neither truth nor lies and the people I am speaking of are masters of it.

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 12:45 PM (#3830180)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well here's a technically true statement.

"Daily Mail, eh? Well one owner of the Daily Mail was an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis and Blackshirts!"

Whatever you think of today's Daily Mail (not much, in my case), that is both a technically true statement and one that is intended to be a smear. You are being disingenuous, Keith, yet another of your very many character flaws.


03 Jan 17 - 12:55 PM (#3830182)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"They're all as bad as each other."
Most of this forum is made up of honest, straightforward discussion
There are a couple of extremist exceptions who continue to make it a W.A.S.P., heterosexual site - personally, I find that extremely offensive and am prepared to put in a little effort to at least expose it.
You fellers want to pass by on the other side, fine by me - I was brought up to believe that if you see extremism, challenge it.
We already know that the few Muslim members of this forum are long gone - we also know that there a a number of self-declared gays and god knows how many who have chosen to stay silent about their sexuality.
Personally, I think it is unfair to allow some of the intolerance and hate towards these people to go unchallenged.
I have to say I find it disappointing that people who I largely admire and respect stay silent when this bigotry and hatred raises its intolerant head, yet leap up on their chairs in horror when it is challenged - but that's me!
I enjoy debate on this forum - I don't think I can be accused of not making a contribution to the debates, but I am inclined to loose my rag when I believe it is being ****** up by a small band of bigots.
Sorry to give offence - will do my best to put a lid on it when our resident bigots are out.
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 01:12 PM (#3830189)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,

If Brendan Cox is an extremist, why has he not been arrested?


Who suggested he was?
Farage accused his organisation of using violence, and he is not known for making false claims.

If Hilary Clinton is a criminal, why is she not in prison?
Not all crimes are considered to be worth prosecuting.

Steve, I have no opinion on the Daily Mail. What is your point?


03 Jan 17 - 01:26 PM (#3830192)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Stop pretending to be thick, Keith. My point was perfectly clear.


03 Jan 17 - 01:35 PM (#3830196)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do not know why you suddenly started attacking the Mail.
Where did that come from? Please explain.
I do not care about the Mail and have no opinion.


03 Jan 17 - 01:42 PM (#3830200)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

As you well know, Keith, the language of politics is very flexible and does not follow the rules of the courtroom. "Well he would know more about extremists than me" is a sound bite intended to make people thing he has extremist links. Now, you may not think that and I may not think that. But plenty people, particularly Farage supporters, will now believe that Brendan Cox does have something to hide. No smoke without fire and all that.

Yes, not all crimes are considered to be worth prosecuting yet Trump was adamant that she would be arrested and drove his supporters into a frenzy with that smear. The simple fact that he has not followed up on it is a good indication that it was a lie. Something that, oooh, how did you put it earlier, will quietly be dropped?

But let us take another line. If a true statement cannot be a smear then if I were to say "I believe that Nigel Farage is a loathsome character" then it cannot possibly be a smear. Because it is the truth. That is what I believe. Once again I am reminded of Lewis Carroll but I think we all know the Humpty Dumpty quote about words meaning exactly what we want them to mean by now.

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 01:45 PM (#3830202)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I think Steve's point is, Keith, that his statement is both true and will be seen by many a smear. Of course, to those on the right wing it could also be the greatest compliment.

Steve, I have a bone to pick with you. Godwin's Law. Now you have been and gone and done it. Stick to bingo balls and sandal reading Guardian wearers or whatever it was.

:D tG


03 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM (#3830204)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Iains

I am hardly a newbie Jim. I have been posting since at least 2000.
Please endeavour to get your facts right.


03 Jan 17 - 02:03 PM (#3830207)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

You do seem to have posted 8 messages in 2000 Iains and then had over 15 years before posting your next one! If I was more cynical I would say that was a ploy just to catch Jim out :-)

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 02:10 PM (#3830209)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Iains

DtG a few more than that. Some must be homeless and circling endlessly in the ether.


03 Jan 17 - 02:40 PM (#3830215)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Name        Subject        Posted
1         Iains         Lyr Add: DUBLIN IN MY TEARS         07-Feb-00 - 06:22 AM
2         Iains         RE: Lyr/Chords Req: forty shades of green         09-Apr-00 - 09:53 PM
3         Iains         phonetically 'Arby Leeks?'         19-Apr-00 - 12:04 PM
4         Iains         RE: Lyr/Chords Req: phonetically 'Arby Leeks?'         19-Apr-00 - 03:39 PM
5         Iains         Farewell my Green Valleys?         22-Apr-00 - 02:53 PM
6         Iains         RE: Lyr Add: Farewell my Green Valleys?         22-Apr-00 - 04:52 PM
7         Iains         RE: Lyr Add: Farewell my Green Valleys?         23-Apr-00 - 09:27 AM
8         Iains         RE: Lyr Req: songs of the oilfield         02-Aug-00 - 07:20 PM
9         Iains         RE: BS: Cameron & Tax         09-Apr-16 - 07:49 AM

        Name        Subject        Posted
1         Iains         Lyr Add: DUBLIN IN MY TEARS         07-Feb-00 - 06:22 AM
2         Iains         RE: Lyr/Chords Req: forty shades of green         09-Apr-00 - 09:53 PM
3         Iains         phonetically 'Arby Leeks?'         19-Apr-00 - 12:04 PM
4         Iains         RE: Lyr/Chords Req: phonetically 'Arby Leeks?'         19-Apr-00 - 03:39 PM
5         Iains         Farewell my Green Valleys?         22-Apr-00 - 02:53 PM
6         Iains         RE: Lyr Add: Farewell my Green Valleys?         22-Apr-00 - 04:52 PM
7         Iains         RE: Lyr Add: Farewell my Green Valleys?         23-Apr-00 - 09:27 AM
8         Iains         RE: Lyr Req: songs of the oilfield         02-Aug-00 - 07:20 PM
9         Iains         RE: BS: Cameron & Tax         09-Apr-16 - 07:49 AM

8 in 2000. Nothing then until April 2016.

As many people are fond of saying on here. Get your facts right :-)

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM (#3830217)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Whoops - sorry for the hiccup.

D.


03 Jan 17 - 03:04 PM (#3830219)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Iains

DtG When you lose your cookie you can only post as guest. And I have more useful things to do with my time than argue trivialities with the obsessed. Try and get a life!


03 Jan 17 - 03:05 PM (#3830220)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Please endeavour to get your facts right."
I do Iains - please try to speak to the members of this forum with respect
As Dave has just pointed out, you are a newbie in relation to virtually all the posters here.
Your aggressive manner suggests I set out to offend you - I didn't - have the courtesy to reciprocate - it might help you to settle in, if you intend to.
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 03:15 PM (#3830224)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I have a life, thank you Iains and was simply pointing out that people in glass houses should not attempt to throw facts about. How about you try and get a sense of humour?

For the record, there are 27 posts by 'Guest,Iains'. Not exactly a huge difference to the point is it. Who were all your other posts by I wonder?

:D tG


03 Jan 17 - 03:39 PM (#3830230)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

DtG I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

At no time at all did Nigel Farrage EVER make any accusation of, state that, or imply that Brendan Cox was an extremist.

I say you are being deliberately obtuse because you persistently refuse to give the full quotation.

Farrage: "Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means."

Pretty bloody obvious to any sentient human being that it is the organisation "Hope not Hate" that is being accused of being "extremist" NOT Brendan Cox who only gave them money.


03 Jan 17 - 03:54 PM (#3830233)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Steve Shaw - 03 Jan 17 - 12:45 PM

Well here's a technically true statement.

"Daily Mail, eh? Well one owner of the Daily Mail was an enthusiastic supporter of the Nazis and Blackshirts!"


Technically true for a limited period (1934) frozen in time for the ignorant. But the man changed his mind didn't he Shaw - from 1938 onwards he tried to warn the country that war was coming and urged the Government of the day to rearm and recognise Germany for the threat that it undoubtedly was.


03 Jan 17 - 04:00 PM (#3830235)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

The whole quotation has been presented to Dave many times Teribus, he chooses to ignore it.


03 Jan 17 - 04:07 PM (#3830236)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

No, not really, Teribus. OK - I have not given the full quote since I linked it but did one of your friends not once say that once you have given the link to the full quote you do not need to repeat it again? :-) I did supply the link twice and at least I did not rephrase it altogether.

Anyway, you made the point quite nicely. Brendan Cox gave them money. What is another word for giving someone money? Supporting them. So, Farage says that Brendan Cox is supporting an extremist organisation. I think you may be missing the point that I am making yourself. I do not believe it. You do not believe it. Dangerously deranged people like Thomas Mair could well fall for it and cause even more harm.

Cheers

DtG


03 Jan 17 - 04:13 PM (#3830238)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Incidentally, Teribus, I think you also make the point for Steve. It was true for that period of time so, by Keith's rule, it is not a smear. Yet if someone was to say that Rothermere had links with the Nazis I am sure the man himself would have considered it a slur.

D.


03 Jan 17 - 04:47 PM (#3830242)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

A bit of light relief.

Night sky lambasted for looking 'too Islamic'

Someone somewhere will believe it though :-(

:D tG


03 Jan 17 - 05:15 PM (#3830247)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Try not to act thick, Teribus. The precise point is that the comment was technically truthful but was intended as a smear. Why? Because it was lacking the essential context that you so "helpfully" provided! 😂


03 Jan 17 - 05:21 PM (#3830250)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"But the man changed his mind didn't he Shaw - from 1938 "
The "man" wrote long articles praising British Fascism and used his newspaper to publicise and encourage the growth of the Blackshirts
He didn't "chanfe his mind" - he got cold feet when he realised what he had gotten himself into
"A letter from Rothermere in 1939 (six years into Nazi control of Germany, and thousands of political murders later) congratulated Hitler on his success in Prague, and urged him to move on to Romania. Rothermere had befriended and was paying a Nazi spy in Britain – Stephanie von Hohenlohe – to further his contacts in Nazi Germany, and pass correspondence between himself and the regime. The brutality of the regime at this late point was obvious. Rothermere and the Mail turned a blind eye to it."
DAILY MAIL FASCISM
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 05:52 PM (#3830255)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: bobad

Well, if anybody would be familiar with Nazi fascism...............


03 Jan 17 - 06:23 PM (#3830262)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"
Well, if anybody would be familiar with Nazi fascism.........."
Don't spoil it Bobad
Back under your Bridge
Wasn't it you taking a pop a few postings ago?
MIND YOU, AN ANTI SEMITE ALWAYS RECOGNISES A SOULMATE
Jim Carroll


03 Jan 17 - 06:46 PM (#3830269)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Big Al Whittle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRJvLkxH4yYv


03 Jan 17 - 08:27 PM (#3830287)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Video not available, Al.


04 Jan 17 - 03:13 AM (#3830301)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

"I have not given the full quote since I linked it but did one of your friends not once say that once you have given the link to the full quote you do not need to repeat it again? - DtG

Keith A may very well have said something to that effect but it didn't wash with the person that statement was aimed at - Steve Shaw - 03 Jan 17 - 11:55 AM - the subject being the "Vulgar"/"Fraudulent" reference to the works of two historians in an article written by Wheatcroft. That was about three years ago now and Shaw is still wittering on about it despite Keith A owning up to the error and correcting/clarifying it about six times immediately after it had been pointed out to him.

Now if you go back to the thread "New Political Low Take 2" the question you asked was as follows DtG:

"Do you support him attacking a widower by suggesting he has links to the extremism that killed his wife"

Total misrepresentation that isn't it DtG because in the following Nigel Farage does not make any reference to the murder of Jo Cox does he?

"Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means."

But if we take what you stated at face value. Have you any evidence at all implicating "Hope not Hate" in the death of Jo Cox - you did say "links to the extremism that killed his wife" didn't you?


04 Jan 17 - 04:02 AM (#3830309)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Total misrepresentation that isn't it DtG because in the following Nigel Farage does not make any reference to the murder of Jo Cox does he?"
False - he actually said it was "unfortunate" what happened to her family - a wonderful hypocritical understatement from a political thug.
"He also, by implication, blames her and her husband for such murders First, he is talking about a widower whose wife was murdered by an extremist six months ago. Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism – at a time when hate crimes have surged after a referendum campaign made inflammatory by politicians including Nigel Farage."
ENOUGH
His collegue, James Delingpole, expanded:
"Then came Farage's sidekicks. "When are we allowed to say that Brendan Cox is a total arse?" tweeted the Breitbart columnist James Delingpole. "I'm sorry about his wife but he chose to massively politicise it. Who does that?" asked Ukip bankroller Arron Banks, accusing Jo's widower – rather than the far-right terrorist who killed her – of politicising her death."
He went from depth to depth by blaming ANGELA MERKEL for the Berlin attack, attempting to make political capital out of that massacre.
These people are fascist scum and it is little wonder that they have the full support of the piece of fascist scum that will take control of the White House shortly
Truely evil days ahead.
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 04:11 AM (#3830312)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

you did say "links to the extremism that killed his wife" didn't you?

Yes, I did say that. On a thread that was closed once again because of being derailed. Looks like you are trying to derail this thread as well but seeing as you mention it. It was extremism that killed Jo Cox was it not? Because it was a different extremist that killed her does not make linking the grieving family to any extremism any better does it.

Cheers

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 04:41 AM (#3830315)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
if I were to say "I believe that Nigel Farage is a loathsome character" then it cannot possibly be a smear. Because it is the truth. That is what I believe

You have been unable to justify your belief with anything Farage has actually said or done.
You even misrepresent what he has said, and claim he meant something else!
That makes it just prejudice.
I agree it is not a smear though.

When campaigning against each other, all politicians make the most of their opponents previous mistakes.
Clinton's mistake had been to break the legal rules on secure communication, for which she could have been prosecuted but was not.
She called her opponent names too based on his previous mistakes.


04 Jan 17 - 04:55 AM (#3830320)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism –

He claims that it used violence to disrupt UKIP events.
He is not known for making false claims, and I am not aware of him even being challenged over that one.
If true it is not a smear.


04 Jan 17 - 05:08 AM (#3830325)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"He is not known for making false claims,"
What!!!!!!!
You follow your star Keith, I'll follow mine
I suppose you don't support Ukip in the same way you don't support Farage??
Personally, I'm proud my Family used violence to disrupt Blackshirt meetings - long may there be people in this world prepared to do so to stop fascism.
The ballot box isn't making much of a fist of it.
Care to comment on the rise of racial violence following Ukip's successful efforts on Brexit?
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 05:20 AM (#3830329)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

"He is not known for making false claims,"
What!!!!!!!


Produce one Jim.

I suppose you don't support Ukip in the same way you don't support Farage??

I am not a supporter of either, but I have been anti-EU for many years.

Care to comment on the rise of racial violence following Ukip's successful efforts on Brexit?

I am appalled by it. So is Farage and UKIP.


04 Jan 17 - 06:13 AM (#3830335)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Teribus, you have owned up to Keith's error several times but he never has. And he never does. Had it been his only one I wouldn't have bothered, but it isn't. He's currently lying in his teeth, back to the wall, about the US failure to veto the latest UN resolution on the Israeli settlements. You really couldn't make it up. Well, he does, actually, routinely. It's there in the Labour thread. It's a sad, long saga of a read and I wouldn't be surprised if you can't be arsed with it. Sums your mate up to a tee.


04 Jan 17 - 06:38 AM (#3830337)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

You have been unable to justify your belief with anything Farage has actually said or done.
You even misrepresent what he has said, and claim he meant something else!
That makes it just prejudice.
I agree it is not a smear though.


No, I have justified my belief. It is based on years of human experience, the views of my friends and family, and the commentary of people like Owen Jones. That you do not accept my justification is of little consequence.

I have not misrepresented anything anyone has said. I did not provide the full quote but I provided the link and the full quote has been given elsewhere. I seem to remember that excuse from somewhere but, just in case the rules have changed yet again, the full quote is "Well, of course, he would know more about extremists than me, Mr Cox. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and undemocratic means."

It is not just me that believes that this attack was despicable. Just look up the responses from all over the place. I particularly like this one from The Independant snippets from which include

At last someone has dared to say what all decent people are thinking, that men whose wives were murdered should stop whining, and get on with selling dresses on eBay.

and

There has always been a consensus that when someone is grieving, especially after a brutal murder, that it's polite to take their suffering into account before publicly insulting them a few months after the tragedy. This goes to show what a poncey effeminate society we've become.

There are countless such comments, many going a lot further than I do, so don't pretend that I am on my own I have made anything up.

Glad you agree it is not a smear though as I also believe that anyone trying to justify this toads actions is just as bad themselves.

Cheers

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 06:55 AM (#3830339)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Produce one Jim."
His claims of threats to our way of life by migrants are not only false but they incite race hatred
As I am able to find no examples of violence at Ukip meetings, apart from Mike (appropriately named ) Hookem punching a fellow member, we can safely assume that his claim against Mr Cox is also a fkeTher are no reports in the press, no reports of the police being called in, no prosecutions
The man is a liar.
Both you and he may be "appalled" at racist violence, but both of you, with your claims against Moslems and immigrants in general, do much to incite it.
Finished with this Keith - no more head-to-heads with you - you and he are a waste of space - he is dangerous, you are.... well... you!
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 07:00 AM (#3830341)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

BEG PARDON - THERE IS THIS!!
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 07:53 AM (#3830346)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

AND THIS

AND THIS

AND THIS

AND THIS

SEND IN THE POLES !!

And a latter-day British Union of Fascists, using 'Britain First' as the equivalent of the Blackshirts has the nerve to accuse Cox of supporting extremist violence!!
You have to admire their neck
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 09:11 AM (#3830361)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, your belief is that he is a "loathsome character" but you can not relate anything "loathsome" that he has ever said or done.

Whatever your "years of human experience, the views of my friends and family, and the commentary of people like Owen Jones" if you are not aware of a single loathsome thing about him, your belief is just prejudice.

I have not misrepresented anything anyone has said.

Farage never called Brendan an extremist. Your claim that what he really said " is a sound bite intended to make people thing he has extremist links." is based on what?

I also believe that anyone trying to justify this toads actions is just as bad themselves.

But you can not recall any action that is loathsome or toadlike, or that can not be justified.

You are just prejudiced against this person because of his politics.
I am fully aware that many on the left share your prejudice. That does not make it right.


Jim,

His claims of threats to our way of life by migrants are not only false but they incite race hatred


He has never made such a claim, and does not oppose all immigration.


Both you and he may be "appalled" at racist violence, but both of you, with your claims against Moslems and immigrants in general, do much to incite it.


I have never made any "claims against Muslims or immigrants in general," and neither has Farage.
You are making up more shit Jim.


04 Jan 17 - 09:22 AM (#3830365)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes I can, Keith, and have related lots of articles condemning the man for the very actions we are discussing. The fact that you cannot see anything loathsome in what he has done says far more about you than me. You complained bitterly when I suggested that our moralities must be vastly different but, sorry, nothing you are doing here is helping to dissipate that feeling.

I suggest that as it is blatantly obvious we are singing off a different hymn sheet, possibly even inhabiting a different planet, then there is no benefit to anyone in continuing down this track. Maybe we can get back to Theresa May?

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 09:46 AM (#3830369)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"He has never made such a claim, and does not oppose all immigration."
He hasn't - his party have, they have even expelled some extremist nutters - just as BNP has.
It doesn't make any difference what warm words the leader says - the party is based on xenophobia - their RACIST POSTER is based blatently on fear of foreigners and the strong-arm tactics of "Britain First" turn those fears into actions.
NO BLACKS, NO DOGS, NO IRISH - couldn't put it cleared than that
Let's leave it there Keith - you have made it clear what side you are on, despite previous protests.
Perhaps "out of the closet" was your New Year's resolution - Ukip today, Trump tomorrow.
Nothing like starting the year with a new broom, eh?
Dialogue over.
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 10:02 AM (#3830375)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
Yes I can, Keith, and have related lots of articles condemning the man for the very actions we are discussing.

None that I have seen has. Please remind us what they were.

The fact that you cannot see anything loathsome in what he has done says far more about you than me

Then show me up by describing something he has done that I should recognise as loathsome.

then there is no benefit to anyone in continuing down this track

Please to not run away without replying to the above.

Jim,
He hasn't - his party have,

UKIP have not. At least you now acknowledge that he has not either.

the party is based on xenophobia

Made up shit again Jim.

Let's leave it there Keith -

Please do not run away without justifying your ludicrous claims.
Good luck with that!


04 Jan 17 - 10:32 AM (#3830380)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. Last chance. You ask for what I have seen that makes me consider him loathsome. I have already provided the answers which you proceeded to dismiss as being, what was it, the whims of an empty head. I'll repeat what I said before. There are plenty of articles that consider his actions despicable in the case of Brendan Cox and many other things. Take your choice.

the Independant

The BBC

The orignal Guardian piece

Huffington Post

New York Times

And then of course we have the reactions of MPs. I am not going to do all the work for you. Just look up the reactions of Tracy Brabin, Jess Phillips, David Lammy, Stella Creasy, Chris Bryant and a host of others.

These are what have helped to convince me he is loathsome. Serious political commentators, respected journalist, members of parliament. My friends, my family, many of my peers at work. Loads and loads more that I know you will dismiss as prejudice, empty headed, against you, just plain abusive or not currently wearing the right colour of socks.

I really have tried my best and I know it is my fault that I am not getting it across, but you need to ask yourself this question, Keith. If many other people can see it, why can you not?

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 10:45 AM (#3830384)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

All propaganda Dave
Standard defence nowadays
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM (#3830389)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Now, now, Jim :-)

D


04 Jan 17 - 11:13 AM (#3830394)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

'Now, now, Jim"
's the truth Ruth (that dates me, can't even remember who used to sing it)
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 11:25 AM (#3830397)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Backwoodsman

You're all falling for it again!
Don't feed the fucking troll!


04 Jan 17 - 11:36 AM (#3830400)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, one of those links is about Farage on Merkel, and they all refer to Farage on Cox.

You may not agree that Merkel's open door policy allowed dangerous people in as well as refugees, but that is a widely held and legitimate belief in Germany and elsewhere.

What is loathsome in it?

Brendan criticised Farage on Twitter, but Farage chose not to respond.
Nothing loathsome there.
Asked to respond live on radio, he accused Brendan's organisation of extremism.
How is that loathsome? He claims they used violence to disrupt meetings. A politician's lie IF not true, but why loathsome?

Please do not claim to be morally superior again.
Anything loathsome to you will also be to me. Just show it to me.

Not the opinions of left wingers who hate him for his politics, but something actually loathsome that he has ever said or done.
Why is that so hard?


04 Jan 17 - 12:08 PM (#3830407)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Why is a politician's lie less loathsome than anyone else's lie, Keith?

Mind you, I'm asking the wrong man...


04 Jan 17 - 12:18 PM (#3830410)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I really do give up this time.

Advice accepted BWM.

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 12:35 PM (#3830411)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
Why is a politician's lie less loathsome than anyone else's lie, Keith?

I do not approve of lying, but Dave has previously said we should expect it from politicians.
I do not believe it is a lie. He really is not known for making false claims.
The organisation said it would sue and began raising money, but it has now gone quiet. I think that the claim could be stood up in court.

Dave,
I really do give up this time.

You are just running and hiding Dave, because you can not identify a single thing that he has ever said or done that could be described by a reasonable person as loathsome.

Go on. Prove me wrong. Please. Just one thing. The most loathsome thing he has ever said or done. What is the problem?


04 Jan 17 - 12:42 PM (#3830413)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Before I do give up though there are some things I must point out.

1. All the articles criticise Farage in some way. As do many people. I feel I am in good comapany once again.
2. Anything loathsome to you will also be to me That is nonsense. I find what Farage did repulsive. You don't. We are therefore working to different moralities whether you like it or not.
3. Not the opinions of left wingers who hate him for his politics So, we are to exclude all those who are against him and only include things from those who like him? I shall remind you of my words. Loads and loads more that I know you will dismiss as prejudice, empty headed, against you, just plain abusive or not currently wearing the right colour of socks.

Different morality. Different language. Different planet mate...

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 12:46 PM (#3830414)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

"I do not approve of lying"

In which case you must be absolutely full of self-loathing.


04 Jan 17 - 12:48 PM (#3830416)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Please. Just one thing. The most loathsome thing he has ever said or done.

I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE LOATHSOME THING HE HAS JUST DONE TO A GRIEVING WIDOWER.

But, yes Keith. You win. I am running away in the same way any sane man would run. I cannot stand banging my head on a brick wall any longer so, I guess, I lose.

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 01:17 PM (#3830425)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

He's changed, Dave. He rarely says "you lose" these days after all the piss-taking he's endured over it. It's far more likely to be "good luck with that!" these days.


04 Jan 17 - 01:24 PM (#3830427)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"You're all falling for it again! Don't feed the fucking troll!"
Totally with Backwoodsman here - we really are falling for it again
I doubt if he'll go away but he doesn't have to be humoured.
Jim Carroll


04 Jan 17 - 02:28 PM (#3830443)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

In an effort to get the thread back on track can I just point out that the opening post was the premise about Theresa May maybe showing a softer side to the administration that we have seen for the last few years. I know and accept all the points about Tories and lack of care for the working class but my worry is that we can become too involved in the left to see any good. I don't want to end up like a McCarthyite American declaring 'The only good Tory is a dead Tory'. It is wrong to tar a whole group of people because of the actions of a few, surely?

We have seen how it works with the right wingers on here - No input allowed from anyone slightly left of Enoch Powell. Anything to do with Corbyn is evil. So on and so forth. We need to watch we don't become as bad as that. Mind you, I suppose politics and religion, unlike colour, nationality or sexual inclinations are a choice...

DtG


04 Jan 17 - 02:38 PM (#3830447)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Should have been "too see any good in anyone else"

Sorry.

D.


04 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM (#3830450)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

1. All the articles criticise Farage in some way. As do many people. I feel I am in good comapany once again.

Me too. I agree Dave.

2. Anything loathsome to you will also be to me That is nonsense. I find what Farage did repulsive.

Presumably you mean what he said.
"Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means."

Is that what you find "loathsome" and "repulsive." If so we are indeed different. He seems to be just criticising an organisation that has been very hostile to him and his followers.

So, we are to exclude all those who are against him and only include things from those who like him?

Certainly not, but they also failed to identify what they find so abhorrent. It appears to be based just on prejudice because of his politics.

I HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE LOATHSOME THING HE HAS JUST DONE TO A GRIEVING WIDOWER.

He did not do anything to him.
In reply to the attack on himself, he criticised the organisation he supports. Farage did not respond to the twitter attack. He let it go, but then he was asked to respond live on radio. No insults. No abuse. No loathing. Only criticism of the organisation.

We have seen how it works with the right wingers on here - No input allowed from anyone slightly left of Enoch Powell. Anything to do with Corbyn is evil.

No one here acts like that. Making up shit yourself now.


04 Jan 17 - 05:18 PM (#3830476)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

From Teribus: "How odd Lizzie, in that diatribe not one word about the person who raided the pension funds to buy votes to keep himself and Labour in power."

Not odd at all...the thread's about Theresa May, not Brown, and about our STATE pensions, not private ones.

Brown's a bastard too though...very odd bloke...

None of these Inhuman Humans are made to be accountable for what they do to others...

Osborne speeded it all up, Webb (who's just been knighted) (Lib Dem) made it worse by adding another year to us in 2011, also giving men an extra year (why have you all so mildly accepted this?)

May says whatever comes into her head...

Osborne, Cameron, IDS, Crabb, May, etc.etc. all call themselves Christians, whilst they throw us to the lions...

I'm so, SO done with these scumbags, and quite WHY my country hasn't taken to the streets, I've NO idea, other than we've all be kept down so long we can't get up anymore...

Meanwhile, Osborne and Cameron make £Hundreds of £thousands from giving speeches on how wonderful they are, whilst The People sleep on the streets, whilst the sick, disabled, dying and unemployed, along with we 1950s women are sent through their vile, evil Welfare System, humiliated, degraded, tested, assessed....

I hate them all and I'll hate them to my dying day...and if I come back again in another life, I'll STILL hate them all, for they are socipaths and psychopaths, who turn their false smiles off when the camera disappears, just as they spit out their false words later on, the kindness within those words burning their criminal mouths....

This is the most brutal, ghastly, hideous regime EVER to have ruled over us in my lifetime and my Darlin' Dad went to war AGAINST such evil brutes....

As to IDS, he should be arrested and charged with Gross Negligence Manslaughter, as should they all, but IDS will have a very special place in hell, for sure....

Go and see 'I, Daniel Blake', Ken Loach's new film, to truly understand what is going on...and it's not fake, it's not made up...it's EXACTLY what's happening in this sodding country of mine and May, in her Designer Outfits and Designer Shoes, alongside Cameron in his ££clothing too, couldn't give a DAMN.

Anyone who thinks she does, who thinks Cameron did too is mad, quite, quite mad and must have been sprayed with Stupid Spray on the day the entire country got done....

I was indoors......

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!


05 Jan 17 - 03:56 AM (#3830519)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Lizzie seems like a breath of fresh air here - we've all been too busy genuflecting to our resident cretin.
Back to sanity
Britain's ambassador to the U.N., Ivan Rogers, has resigned from his job, leaving Brexit in total chaos - he accuses May of being a "control freak".
According to Rogers, while the other European ministers are ferreting away, preparing to get rid of the British cuckoo in the nest, there is no longer a British voice in those negotiations.
Brexit appears to have moved from a 'little Britain' sit-com to a Whitehall farce.
Whence Brexit now?
Jim Carroll


05 Jan 17 - 04:52 AM (#3830534)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve, Dave and Jim,
He's changed, Dave. He rarely says "you lose" these days after all the piss-taking he's endured over it. It's far more likely to be "good luck with that!" these days.

Do not worry. I have not changed.

You have recently tried to show that Farage can be describes as not just an unpleasant personality and enemy of the Left, but "loathsome" and "repulsive."

The three of you have failed to produce a single quote between you that could earn such sobriquets, so you have failed to make your case.
If you want to put it that way, you lost.

However, it is never too late.
Produce such a quote and I will concede and acknowledge your success at once.
(Not just a link to an article though, unless it contains such a quote in which case just give us the quote)

Good luck with that lads.


05 Jan 17 - 05:20 AM (#3830537)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Many people have produced upmpteen quotes and actions that earn him that reputation with me and millions of others. You do not accept that the ones that have been produced warrant the reputation he has. I do. We are working to a different morality so there is no point in continuing. No winners. No losers. Different games. Different planet.

DtG


05 Jan 17 - 06:46 AM (#3830550)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Waste of time Dave - put as much evidence as you want up and unless it conforms to keith's Born-Again Faragianity itt doesn't exist - so soon after claiming he wasn't a supporter.
His must have had a visitation from Three Wise Ukippers over the Christmas.
Jim Carroll


05 Jan 17 - 07:05 AM (#3830552)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

You haven't put up any evidence at al, just your opinions and those of like minded "lefties"

Keith is right ,you don't like his politics so you demonise the man.
You do the same on every issue....according to you lot we are all racists xenophobes homophobes for having the effrontery, to discuss controversial subjects....subjects which you do not wish to have discussed in case the discussion exposes the weakness of your argument.


05 Jan 17 - 07:27 AM (#3830555)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

Of course Jim has put up evidence. He gave a link to "No Blacks, no Dogs, no Irish" which linked clearly to quotes from Nigel Farage.
The fact that none of the quotes given in that article have him using those terms doesn't diminish his headline link. Does it??


05 Jan 17 - 07:36 AM (#3830556)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
Many people have produced upmpteen quotes and actions that earn him that reputation with me and millions of others.

Really. How did I miss them?
No need for "umpteen." Just give us a few of the very worst and I will have to concede that you were right all along.

We are working to a different morality

Do not kid yourself that you are morally superior.
Just put up a quote that to you is loathsome.
Why is that so hard for you?

Jim,
Waste of time Dave - put as much evidence as you want up and unless it conforms to keith's Born-Again Faragianity itt doesn't exist

Put up a loathsome quote from him then Jim.
Why is that so hard for you?

so soon after claiming he wasn't a supporter.

I am not a supporter. Just anti-EU.


05 Jan 17 - 07:55 AM (#3830558)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

No point in putting any more evidence than I have. See earlier comment.

Different moralities does not equate to morally superior. Do not put words in my mouth.

DtG


05 Jan 17 - 08:16 AM (#3830564)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

But, if I do have to repeat myself again I may as well just C&P the same clip. Put it on Google Keep for reference.

Just put up a quote that to you is loathsome.

Farage's response in turn – that Cox "would know more about extremists than me" because of his links to the anti-fascist organisation Hope Not Hate – is shocking on a number of levels. First, he is talking about a widower whose wife was murdered by an extremist six months ago. Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism – at a time when hate crimes have surged after a referendum campaign made inflammatory by politicians including Nigel Farage.

In case it is unclear the bit in quotes starts the Farage despicable quote. 'is shocking' begins an explanation of why he is loathsome. I can safely predict that you will simply dismiss it, underlining the fact that we are working to different moralities and there is no point continuing.

DtG


05 Jan 17 - 08:42 AM (#3830569)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
First, he is talking about a widower whose wife was murdered by an extremist six months ago

That is not shocking because Brendan instigated the exchange, criticising Farage.

Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism
Did he? I think it was legitimate criticism of an organisation hostile to non-fascist, non-racist UKIP, that Farage states has used violence to disrupt harmless UKIP meetings.

at a time when hate crimes have surged after a referendum campaign made inflammatory by politicians including Nigel Farage.

You have been unable to produce anything inflammatory from Farage.
I do not believe he has been at all inflammatory, but am open to being proved wrong.

In case it is unclear the bit in quotes starts the Farage despicable quote.

Here is the whole quote. Please explain what is despicable in it?
"Well, of course, he would know more about extremists than me, Mr Cox, he backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means."

'is shocking' begins an explanation of why he is loathsome

I have explained above why it does not do that.


05 Jan 17 - 09:27 AM (#3830573)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I can safely predict that you will simply dismiss it, underlining the fact that we are working to different moralities and there is no point continuing.

:D tG


05 Jan 17 - 10:02 AM (#3830580)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

You don't have to use terms like "coon", or "Yid" to be a racist or a bigot, (how many preface their racism with "some of my best friends are....?") - all you need to do is to target foreigners, claim their presence is detrimental to the well-being of the native population and make their lives generally miserable and dangerous, which is exactly what Ukip does – it has no policy beyond this.
Ukip has taken its lesson from its sister party, the BNP, - if you want t get ahead in politics, you have to learn to guard your tongue.
Ukip is a party of incitement to race hatred, it has climbed the greasy political pole on such a policy
I chose the 'Blacks, dogs, Irish' headline because of what the article said about Ukip's policy – of course Farage never used those words, but that's what he stands for – I also chose it for where it appeared – in a right wing paper, the mouthpiece of the Tory establishment – which regards Ukip as too right even for them.
Nigel chooses to sidestep the essence of the argument and set up a smokescreen.
Ake isn't a racist because he refers to "towelheads" – he is a racist because he continued to insist that refugees be forced to continue wearing "Yellow-Star type" identification and have their front doors an identifying colour long after even the most gutter of the gutter rightwing press had condemned it as dangerous and racist.
By your own words shall ye bee known.
Jim Carroll


05 Jan 17 - 10:04 AM (#3830581)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"!Nigel chooses to sidestep"
Parsons, not Farage, of course!
Jim Carroll


05 Jan 17 - 12:58 PM (#3830613)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
I can safely predict that you will simply dismiss it

I did not just dismiss it. I gave a point by point analysis of it.
Nothing remotely "loathsome" from Farage has been produced by you.

Jim,
Ukip has taken its lesson from its sister party, the BNP

Complete shit! They have nothing in common. Care to challenge that?

Ukip is a party of incitement to race hatred, it has climbed the greasy political pole on such a policy

No. It was just the only party with an anti-EU policy which proved to be quite popular.

he is a racist because he continued to insist that refugees be forced to continue wearing "Yellow-Star type" identification and have their front doors an identifying colour

He did not obviously. Smears and made up shit.


05 Jan 17 - 01:11 PM (#3830616)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Nothing remotely "loathsome" from Farage has been produced by you.

Farage's response in turn – that Cox "would know more about extremists than me" because of his links to the anti-fascist organisation Hope Not Hate – is shocking on a number of levels. First, he is talking about a widower whose wife was murdered by an extremist six months ago. Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism – at a time when hate crimes have surged after a referendum campaign made inflammatory by politicians including Nigel Farage.

That is, in my opinion, loathsome. Many people agree with me. You don't. No point in continuing.


DtG


05 Jan 17 - 01:11 PM (#3830617)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

"I chose the 'Blacks, dogs, Irish' headline because of what the article said about Ukip's policy – of course Farage never used those words, but that's what he stands for"

You choose it like you choose to use all the other forms of demonization to obscure the paucity of your argument, you are a vicious person Jim.
There are no racists on this forum, but people must be free to give their opinions on issues like uncontrolled immigration as they have very important long term effects on society


05 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM (#3830628)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"There are no racists on this forum, b"
I have made a point of why I believe you to be a racist
That was you stance on thos armbands - say it was not
I am not vicious - your racism is vicious as is your homophobia
I detest both
If people's opinions are racist, that is what they are
Jim Carroll


05 Jan 17 - 03:12 PM (#3830631)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

By th way
You choose to ignore the evidence that has been put upon Farage and his party, what other are saying, how Ukip is generally regarded, not just by the left, but by the country as a whole
You offer no opposition to those facts to counteract those attitudes and facts - only denial.
This makes you not only a supporter of Ukip's racism, but a dishonest person.
The point of taking part in these discussions is to share views and to argue, if necessary
Unqualified denial seems to have replaced both with several people.
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 04:22 AM (#3830684)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
First, he is talking about a widower whose wife

No he was not! He was talking about a political organisation.

Second, he smeared an organisation that exists to drive back racism

It is just another political organisation, not some Crusaders for Righteousness! Of course it is OK to criticise them and challenge their methods. If he is right about their use of violence, it is no smear.

inflammatory by politicians including Nigel Farage.

Jim,
how Ukip is generally regarded, not just by the left, but by the country as a whole

London is not like the rest of the country.
It voted strongly to remain.
It elected a Labour Mayor.

Its main local broadcaster is LBC.
Would they appoint a presenter its audience would see as loathsome or repulsive?
Of course not, but they have just appointed Farage as presenter.
But you can not quote a single inflammatory statement from him.


06 Jan 17 - 04:31 AM (#3830685)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Whoops,
Final line should have followed the "inflammatory" quote.

We are all of an age where we have experienced the loss of people very close to us.
We know that the grief and sense of loss never goes away, but after a few weeks life has to go on.
We throw ourselves into our work and do not want or expect to be treated with kid gloves or wrapped in cotton wool for ever.

With Brendan that is politics.
He publicly criticised a prominent and outspoken politician knowing he could be relied on to produce a cutting and contentious reply.

I doubt he approves of some on the Left trying to use his grief and loss to gain political advantage.
That is just sick.


06 Jan 17 - 04:48 AM (#3830687)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ne'er the twain...

DtG


06 Jan 17 - 04:58 AM (#3830688)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Allan Conn

I've got to say there does indeed seem to be an element of racism within UKIP. Not just talking about the obvious examples like Farage's poster etc. Prior to the 2015 election UKIP councillor Rozanne Duncan was expelled by Farage after she openly spouted racism in front of the cameras. However watching the documentary "Meet The Ukippers" it seemed to me that she was expelled for being caught out on TV rather than what she believed. Prospective candidates seemed to be instructed more to "not say anything racist which could land us in it" much more than "we don't want anyone with racist views standing for us"


06 Jan 17 - 05:32 AM (#3830699)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Ne'er the twain..."
Well said Dave - really not worth the reply
How can you argue with a non-Ukip supporter who put in so much effort supporting them - especially sickos who denigrate the bereaved?
Schizophrenia rules OK OK
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM (#3830719)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Wise words, in my opinion, from Nick Lowles of Hope not Hate. It is in the Guardian again so I would advise those of us not in the sandal wearing hippy mold to avoid it...

:D tG


06 Jan 17 - 08:14 AM (#3830722)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Allan, there are "racists" in every party...including our own, I often hear "these English bastards" from SNP supporters.
I know they are in a minority, but there is also the sectarian element, so I suppose we shouldn't throw stones.
Anyway the discussion was about the response of m=Mr Farage personally and there is no reason to assume that he is a racist.


06 Jan 17 - 08:19 AM (#3830724)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"and there is no reason to assume that he is a racist."
Unless you actulally examine his party's actions and aims
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 08:23 AM (#3830727)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

The discussion was originally intended to be about whether the Tory party have begun to see sense but it does seem to have developed along the usual lines.

Sadly

DtG


06 Jan 17 - 08:23 AM (#3830728)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim, the fact that I don't respond to much of your insulting rants, doesn't mean that I accept them.
I have taken the time to explain my position of uncontrolled immigration and homosexual "marriage" on several occasions.


06 Jan 17 - 09:28 AM (#3830739)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Nigel Farage is a racist because he was the leader of a party which obsessively pursues an agenda predicated on xenophobia. This is a populist stance designed to win votes at all costs. Misrepresentations (downright lies if you like) about the cost of the EU, foreigners taking our jobs, foreigners forcing down wages, foreigners living on benefits and Muslim terrorists hiding among immigrants, etc., are all grist to his mill. He picked up millions of votes by targeting working-class people with these simplistic, fearmongering lies. That is the time-honoured racist way, persuading working people that all the problems of the country are caused by the people in the next tier down from them. And he did stand proudly in front of a poster showing a long line of mostly black REFUGEES which was ostensibly about controlling the movement of EU citizens. I suppose you think he did that by accident.


06 Jan 17 - 10:08 AM (#3830745)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

I know your position Ake and the fact that you don't respond to what I say only confirms that you have no argument
You may describe them as "insulting rants" but it is noticeable that you you neither deny them nor attempt to explain them.
Did you not defend the forcing of refugees to wear armbands long after the government and the press had deemed them dangerous - a simple yes or no will do?
I've put your doing so up several times so there's no question that this is your position.
Your serial homophobia is legendary.
Personally, I regard attacks on refugees from wars we have helped to start pretty disgusting and racist.
Dave
I put this pu some time ago - it would appear that people here would rather defend Farage's racism.
Try again
Back to sanity
Britain's ambassador to the U.N., Ivan Rogers, has resigned from his job, leaving Brexit in total chaos - he accuses May of being a "control freak".
According to Rogers, while the other European ministers are ferreting away, preparing to get rid of the British cuckoo in the nest, there is no longer a British voice in those negotiations.
Brexit appears to have moved from a 'little Britain' sit-com to a Whitehall farce.
Whence Brexit now?
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 11:52 AM (#3830764)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
"and there is no reason to assume that he is a racist."
Unless you actulally examine his party's actions and aims


Have you Jim?
Care to share something you found that you object to?

Steve,

Nigel Farage is a racist because he was the leader of a party which obsessively pursues an agenda predicated on xenophobia.


But it does not and never has Steve. Can you back your claim with any fact?
As always, no.

And he did stand proudly in front of a poster showing a long line of mostly black REFUGEES which was ostensibly about controlling the movement of EU citizens.

The poster showed a genuine picture of migrants waiting to enter Europe so they were non-Europeans, but not black actually.
Once in they can indeed move freely between countries. That was a serious issue in the Brexit debate.


06 Jan 17 - 12:08 PM (#3830767)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015, with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text.

DtG


06 Jan 17 - 01:34 PM (#3830779)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Care to share something you found that you object to?"
What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants, the "no Blacks, no dogs... analysis from the Telegraph, Farage's smeary attacks on Jo Cox's widower, the fact that fear of foreigners is their only conceivable policy, the rise in the attacks on immigrants following their efforts on Brexit, the fact that Ukip is crawling with racists ....!!!!!
All you have offered in return is a claim you don't support Ukip and denials of their policy
To request something you have been given several times is a sign of imbecility, but I'm sure that you aware of that as this is a regular thing of yours now
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 01:49 PM (#3830784)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

CONSERVATIVE SPECTATOR
Anything other than denial yet
Jim Carroll


06 Jan 17 - 02:15 PM (#3830788)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Just for once try not to be so bloody stupid, Keith. UKIP is a one-trick pony party with the single express aim of getting us out of the EU. Any argument will do and they are unscrupulously non-picky in the arguments they garner. Immigration is out of control. Foreigners are stealing our jobs. Foreigners drive wages down. Foreigners are living on benefits. Foreigners are taking over our towns, villages and shops. Muslim terrorists are hiding amongst foreigners coming over our borders. The EU is taking £350 million of what should be NHS money. All lies. Xenophobic soundbite arguments spiced with lies and exaggeration are the time-honoured way of duping working-class people into voting for you. The National Front tried it, the BNP tried it and UKIP Is making rather more of a success of it. You tell working people that all the problems of the country are caused by the people in the tier below you. Racism staring you in the face but Keith can't see it.

As for the poster, it said that we need to get out of the EU to take back control of our borders. But the photo didn't show any EU citizens exercising their right to come here. The poster depicted REFUGEES, mostly with dark skin. Looking Muslim. We have a policy of taking just 20,000 refugees over five years. That is nothing to do with the EU and it is TOTALLY under our control. The message of the poster was that we must get out of the EU unless we want to be swamped by hordes of people who look like Muslims. It was a false, racist message and Farage stood proudly in front of it. He knew exactly what he was doing. But, of course, Keith, doesn't see any of this. He simply wants to put "their side of the story." Ignore the lies, the immorality, the opportunism, the racism. Just defend one of the nastiest men the politics of this country has ever seen.


06 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM (#3830803)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, but he has not done anything wrong by Keith's standards, Steve. We are working to different rules, moralities and languages as far as I can ascertain so Keith is not being Stupid. Merely different. Perhaps you may do better at getting through than I did.

Good luck with that ;-)

DtG


06 Jan 17 - 04:59 PM (#3830808)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Good luck with that, Dave. I lose. 🤓


06 Jan 17 - 05:06 PM (#3830811)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: akenaton

It is my considered opinion that Steve,Jim and DtG are paranoid. It is the only explanation for their crazy views.

What really goes on in the dark recesses of their brains.

Every party now agrees that uncontrolled immigration is wrong. I heard a discussion tonight from a panel containing Alan Johnston Anna Soubry, Mathew Elliott, Sean McAlister........all supported regulation of immigration after demonising the Leave Campaign for that very thing.

Get used to it, it's going to happen......"Free movement" is toast!


06 Jan 17 - 05:38 PM (#3830817)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

...and if reason fails, resort to abuse?

DtG


06 Jan 17 - 06:14 PM (#3830822)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Ache, your "opinion" is neither considered nor of any worth. Hope this helps.


07 Jan 17 - 03:20 AM (#3830865)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"It is my considered opinion that Steve,Jim and DtG are paranoid."
Well, that'a a well reasoned argument giving plenty of food for thought
Can I have a little time to think about that?
Jeeze!!!!!
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 04:50 AM (#3830871)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Steve Shaw - 06 Jan 17 - 06:14 PM

"Ache, your "opinion" is neither considered nor of any worth."


As opposed to your "opinions" that are what Shaw? At least when Akenaton and Keith A proffer their opinions they substantiate them both logically and reasonably. You Shaw and your gang of "usual suspects" rely on myth, empty and disproven rhetoric and misrepresentation. The claim by DtG that Farage accused Brendan Cox of being an extremist is typical of such a misrepresentation, and you and all your baying sycophants jumped on the band-wagon to support him.


07 Jan 17 - 05:01 AM (#3830872)
Subject: RE: BS: Therasa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?

What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants,

The poster was of non European migrants crossing EU borders, which was a legitimate issue and not racist.

What rants about immigration? UKIP does not oppose immigration but like every other party seeks to control it.

You have not made a case that the party's "actions and aims" are racist.
Can you?

Farage's smeary attacks on Jo Cox's widower,

It was a reply to an attack, and had no smears.

the fact that fear of foreigners is their only conceivable policy

That is not a policy at all.

the fact that Ukip is crawling with racists

Please name names Jim, but beware of legal action for lying.

All you have offered in return is a claim you don't support Ukip and denials of their policy

No. I have just asked you to justify your claims, but you can't.

Steve,
Keith. UKIP is a one-trick pony party with the single express aim of getting us out of the EU

Fair comment Steve. I agree.

All lies.

No. All issues of genuine concern, especially to the "Working class" you showed such sneering contempt for.

The poster depicted REFUGEES, mostly with dark skin.

They were all young men so economic migrants not refugees. Many would have been heading for UK via the Jungle.

The message of the poster was that we must get out of the EU unless we want to be swamped by hordes of people who look like Muslims

Only to you. To me it was highlighting the EU's incompetent handling of the issue.

Just defend one of the nastiest men the politics of this country has ever seen.

I am defending no-one, just asking you to justify your claims but you can't.

Dave, Yes, but he has not done anything wrong by Keith's standards, Steve. We are working to different rules,

None of you have established any wrong doing. Just calling him names won't do.


07 Jan 17 - 05:16 AM (#3830874)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Joe Offer

So, Keith, does this mean that you are taking a stand in favor of Farage and UKIP? As an outside observer, it seems to me that Theresa May might be a relatively reasonable conservative, but that Farage and UKIP fit into the "lunatic fringe."

Here in the U.S., of course, we've gone straight to the "lunatic fringe" and elected him President.

People didn't use to go for the fringe like that. They used to think the fringe was reserved for the crazy people. I wonder what happened.

I'm still in the middle myself, but I'm old-fashioned.

-Joe-


07 Jan 17 - 05:34 AM (#3830875)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

No Joe. I have always been anti-EU but no supporter of ukip.
but that Farage and UKIP fit into the "lunatic fringe."

I do not think they are lunatic fringe and would ask why you do.
Before UKIP all the established parties were pro EU. There was a gap in the market which they filled, and proved to be very popular.

It is not lunacy to question the value of being in the EU.


07 Jan 17 - 05:38 AM (#3830878)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

It is not lunacy to question the value of being in the EU.
Neither is it "fringe." All our established parties had minorities who were anti-EU.

I am also "in the middle" politically. I voted Labour when Blair ran it. That centre ground is currently held by the Tories.


07 Jan 17 - 06:52 AM (#3830886)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"It is my considered opinion that Steve,Jim and DtG are paranoid."
It is my opinion that you are sorely in need of a dictionary.
You have laways had problems with "liberal" and "Socialist", now you have added "paranoid" to your list.
What exactly are we supposed to be Afraid Of?
It is you people who are the Xenophobes (those who fear and mistrust foreigners)
It is you who claim immigrants take British jobs and threaten our way of life.
FACTS ABOUT IMMIGRATION
MYTHS ABOUT IMMIGRATION
MORE MYTHS DEBUNKED
Britain, as a professed civilised country, Britain is morally obliged to take in refugees - not one of you Xenos has had the decency to acknowledge that, had Britain adopted the attitude of hatred and mistrust you people do, many more Jews would have perished in the Holocaust.
Economically, taking in immigrants has always proved a benefit to Britain - if multiculturalism hasn't worked it is the fault of the 'Little Englanders' like yourselves who spread your hate, fear and prejudice.
Until the shambles of Brexit, 'free movement' was a two-way street - we could go to Europe freely, just has they could come here - now after the shambolic Brexit fiasco, that has been blocked and as Britain has no industrial base any more and no prospect of getting one.... well!!!
No Ake- can you give us your definition of "paranoia" and tell us what we're afraid of?
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 07:05 AM (#3830889)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?


No Objection. A statement of fact but you seem to have only quoted half of what I said. The remainder being , with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text.

DtG


07 Jan 17 - 07:07 AM (#3830890)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

"A gap in the market." Ha ha. Ever thought of doing standup?

Typical response from Keith, filled with denial and disingenuousness. The poster was intended to mislead. If you can't see that there's no helping you. The issue of controlling borders is entirely to do with the free movement of EU citizens coming to find work. It has nothing whatsoever to do with refugees. The people in the queue all looked Middle Eastern and it's on record that they were not EU citizens looking for work. Refugees or even "economic migrants" from outside the EU are already fully under our border controls, nothing to do with the EU. By the way, even UKIP's only MP, the estimable Douglas Carswell, acknowledged that the poster depicted refugees, as does almost everyone else. You won't find any politicians of repute (if there are any) denying it. "Economic migrants" my arse. And what has the age of those depicted got to do with anything? That's just desperate. The poster was universally condemned. You can't defend it like you do then tell us you're not a fan of UKIP. You are numero uno, Keith, and always have been. Unless you're just "putting their side of the story" of course. Good luck with that! 😂😂😂

Teribus, do have your morning coffee and a couple of Anadin before you post. Or Rennies, I dunno.


07 Jan 17 - 07:07 AM (#3830891)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Tory party millionaire donor has said he will cease his financial support of the Tory Party if May pulls Britain out of Europe - tee-hee.
"I voted Labour when Blair ran it."
How can voting for a potential war criminal get any more righter?
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 07:17 AM (#3830895)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"How can voting for a potential war criminal get any more righter?

Perhaps because there was more than one issue that was important at the time? Not everything New Labour did was tainted with the Red Tory attitude of the Blairites; the NHS thrived under New Labour and the tories are killing it now. We were better off with them in charge than we are with this bunch or right-wing, populist nasties.


07 Jan 17 - 08:00 AM (#3830899)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

"No Ake- can you give us your definition of "paranoia" and tell us what we're afraid of?"

In one word Jim.....truth.   Why? because it exposes your idiotic ideology and to people like you that is everything. Your raison d'etre as they say on the continent.


07 Jan 17 - 08:05 AM (#3830900)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Joe, like Keith I am surprised that you think Mr Farage a lunatic, he is a very able and exceedingly intelligent politician; perhaps it is his friendship with you nemesis Mr Trump, but if that is so surely you cannot be arrogant enough to believe all these millions of your fellow countrymen and women suffer from lunacy?


07 Jan 17 - 08:20 AM (#3830902)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"Joe, like Keith I am surprised that you think Mr Farage a lunatic"

Why? Joe at least seems like a person who actually gives some considered thought to his opinions and seems far less partisan than many here. I'd agree with his assessment. Farage is a man of great personal charisma and very little personal integrity; he sucks up to Murdoch and Dacre in the same manner those he professes to oppose did, he's well known for chasing celebrities and now has his own radio show on LBC... part of the very establishment he's fooled half a nation of gullible idiots into thinking he stands apart from but in reality is a part of.

Interesting that Farage's not inconsiderable ego has also eclipsed that of the laughably stupid fellow xenophobe Paul Nutgall, who despite being leader of the kippers can't get a look in as the media is so enthralled with Nasty Nigel, although one gets the impression they're waiting for him to balls up rather than say anything with any degree of insight or intelligence.


07 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM (#3830904)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"In one word Jim.....truth."
You belive "paranoi" to mean truth - my, my, you do need a dictionary.

"paranoia
ˌparəˈnɔɪə/Submit
noun
a mental condition characterized by delusions of persecution, unwarranted jealousy, or exaggerated self-importance, typically worked into an organized system. It may be an aspect of chronic personality disorder, of drug abuse, or of a serious condition such as schizophrenia in which the person loses touch with reality.
synonyms: persecution complex, delusions, obsession, megalomania, monomania; psychosis
unjustified suspicion and mistrust of other people.
"mild paranoia afflicts all prime ministers"
If what you say is true, why do you people never ling to it, and why do you continue to ignore what is put up?
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 09:10 AM (#3830908)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

FARAGE LINK to JO COX'S KILLER
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 10:04 AM (#3830911)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
Economically, taking in immigrants has always proved a benefit to Britain

That is true Jim. The beneficiaries are employers, landlords and the Treasury.
The negative effects, wage depression, housing crisis, high rents, over-subscribed schools, medical services, etc. fall on the working class and who gives a shit about them?!
Certainly not our caring liberal left.

Dave,
. A statement of fact but you seem to have only quoted half of what I said. The remainder being , with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text.

What is the significance? Are you even sure of the fact?

The poster was intended to mislead

It was a genuine picture of a scene common on every news programme at the time.

The issue of controlling borders is entirely to do with the free movement of EU citizens coming to find work

Did you not even know that there was also a major issue of migrants entering Europe?? Look it up Steve. No wonder you seem so out of your depth on this!

Refugees or even "economic migrants" from outside the EU are already fully under our border controls

The whole crisis somehow passed you by Steve!

acknowledged that the poster depicted refugees, as does almost everyone else.

They were all young men. Refugees are displaced families. Where were the women and girls and old folk?

Jim,
FARAGE LINK to JO COX'S KILLER

Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site.
Where do you dredge this stuff up from.


07 Jan 17 - 10:33 AM (#3830914)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"That is true Jim. The beneficiaries are employers, landlords and the Treasury."
Not what the evidence says, in fact it says exactly the opposite?
Do you have any evidence to contradict what has been put up?
Your own account is typical Ukip hate-garbage.
"Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site."
Posted on several sites, but I suppose anything left of Attila the Hun is "extreme"
Do you have any eidence that it is not true - course you don't, otherwise you would have been there with one of your "real historians"
Interesting that you should be happy to defend smears that Brendan Cox is linkd to an extremist group, but up on your chair denying a suggestions of links to the leader you don't support being accused of the same thing though!!
Transparent as glass Keith - every time
Getting a bit bored with denials - how about a song or a joke!!
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 10:38 AM (#3830916)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Getty Images own the photo. Ask them. UKIP chose to use it. Ask them.

The poster was used in the brexit campaign. The issue depicted in the poster had NOTHING to do with brexit. Stop being so dishonest. We would have issues with refugees/economic migrants regardless of our dealings with the EU. The image was used entirely inappropriately. The only control we would be able to "take back" would be regarding the movement of EU citizens. There were none of those in that photo. Get real, Keith.

"The negative effects, wage depression, housing crisis, high rents, over-subscribed schools, medical services, etc. fall on the working class and who gives a shit about them"

Every single one of these effects has been brought about by government policy and every single one of them could be controlled or rectified by the government. You are blaming immigrants for shitty government policy. You are a racist.


07 Jan 17 - 11:21 AM (#3830923)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

A few more to deny while your defending the smearing of Brendan Cox
EUROPEAN FAR RIGHT
UKIP CANDIDATES AND HATE GROUPS
TOP AIDE and HATE GROUPS
UKIP and HOLOCAUST DENIER
LINKS WITH FASCISM
RUSSIA
APPEAL to FAR RIGHT
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 11:24 AM (#3830925)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
Not what the evidence says, in fact it says exactly the opposite?
Please justify that claim.

Do you have any eidence that it is not true

Yes. It has never appeared on any actual news site or reputable publication.

smears that Brendan Cox is linkd to an extremist group,

He is linked to Hope Not Hate, which Farage claims to be extremist.
They raised a lot of money to fight that claim in court, but have just trousered the money and dropped the case. Why would they do that?

Steve, you can call me a racist, a radish, or any other silly name but you can not answer what I actually say.

The poster showed non-European migrants so you would not expect to see white faces.
You can see the original here. The man may be white. The Huff. Post says he is likely to be police or security anyway.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farages-eu-has-failed-us-all-poster-slammed-as-disgusting-by-nicola-sturgeon_uk_576288c0e4b08b9e3abdc483


07 Jan 17 - 11:29 AM (#3830928)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim, it's quite simple really, You asked what I thought you were frightened of....and I said "truth", for the reasons I gave in my post.

I did not provide the meaning of Paranoia to you as I presumed that you would be aware of it. How was I to know that you would have to look it up?


07 Jan 17 - 12:07 PM (#3830931)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

".and I said "truth","
How about backing your "truth" with some facts - all you have ever offered is extremist right-wing opinions.
Your arrogance is almost as beyond belief as hor extremist hate politics
"Please justify that claim."
When you've responded to the links I've put up associating yiour (I don't support" party
I'm getting pissed of with posting information which you either ignore or deny, then claim it hasn'r been put up
You really are something else you pair
"He is linked to Hope Not Hate, which Farage claims to be extremist."
Farage is a liar - you have offered no proof that this is an extremist group - I asked for proof that it was - you have provided none.
Farage claimned there was violence - you supported that - I asked for proof - you provided none
You put up shit from Guido Fawkes - an extremist right-wing supporter of the Contras, and expect it to be believed, yet you reject sites yyou claim to be left wing - puts your politics poretty well where they should be, doesn't it?
Now - those links to extremist groups???
You are a joke
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 12:12 PM (#3830932)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

What is the significance? Are you even sure of the fact?

1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.
2. Yes.

DtG


07 Jan 17 - 12:32 PM (#3830936)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Good, Keith. You admit that the poster depicted non-EU migrants. So now tell me what they have to do with taking back control of our borders against EU migrants. Tell me how leaving the EU, the aim of that poster campaign, is going to give us control over the entry of non-EU migrants. I suppose they couldn't find a picture of real EU migrants that had enough black faces in it. And you are a racist because you are making immigrants the scapegoat for issues that arise through deficient government policy. The standard racists' stock in trade is to blame the "tier below" the working classes for all our ills. Enoch Powell did it, the NF and BNP did it, Smethwick did it, "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour." And UKIP do it today. Care to "put all their sides of the story" too, Keith?


07 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM (#3830939)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
Farage is a liar

Please give an example Jim.

you have offered no proof that this is an extremist group

I know nothing about them Jim, but Farage is not known for making claims he can not substantiate, and they do seem to have dropped the prosecution.

Farage claimned there was violence - you supported that

I did not. I know nothing about them Jim, but Farage is not known for making claims he can not substantiate, and they do seem to have dropped the prosecution.

You put up shit from Guido Fawkes

Yes. It included details of anti-Semitism you wanted.

Dave,
1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.

That would be none then Dave. How about you?

2. Yes.


How are you sure Dave? Voices?
I produced the original. So what if there was a white face? Was it a local police man as Huf Post says? So what?


07 Jan 17 - 01:01 PM (#3830952)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
You admit that the poster depicted non-EU migrants

There was never any question of it Steve.

So now tell me what they have to do with taking back control of our borders against EU migrants.

None.

you are a racist because you are making immigrants the scapegoat for issues that arise through deficient government policy.

Not true. The level of migration in recent years has been far too high for any government to provide for.

You can not build a medium sized city every year with all its homes, schools, hospitals and surgeries, and a limitless supply of non-unionised labour will inevitably depress wages whatever government does, and governments love it anyway because the are the biggest employers.

The standard racists' stock in trade is to blame the "tier below" the working classes for all our ills.

I do not argue with that.

Enoch Powell did it, the NF and BNP did it, Smethwick did it, "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour." And UKIP do it today. Care to "put all their sides of the story" too, Keith?

No, and I think you are wrong to include UKIP in that list.


07 Jan 17 - 01:14 PM (#3830954)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Please give an example Jim."
Respond to those links associating Farage and Ukip with the extreme right
"I did not. I know nothing about them Jim,"
Yes you do - the only reason this atrocity described the organisation as extremist was that they resorted to violence - you said he didn't tell lies
"Farage accused his organisation of using violence, and he is not known for making false claims."
You seem a complete stranger to truth Keith - you always have
"Yes. It included details of anti-Semitism you wanted."
You dismiss claims from Left publications but are happy to put up information from a fascist who supports right-wing paramilitaries.
Now - those links
Jim Carroll


07 Jan 17 - 05:58 PM (#3831016)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

How are you sure Dave? Voices?

No, Keith. I have researched it and it is what I said.

DtG


08 Jan 17 - 04:36 AM (#3831063)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

the only reason this atrocity described the organisation as extremist was that they resorted to violence - you said he didn't tell lies

I suspect it to be true. Hence they have decided not to bring a legal case.

You dismiss claims from Left publications but are happy to put up information from a fascist who supports right-wing paramilitaries.

They revealed the tweets that had been made. It was true.

Dave,
No, Keith. I have researched it and it is what I said.

Really? You have seen on my link the original image, and Huff. Post's explanation of it.
Please give details of your research because theirs would seem to contradict it.

Jim,
You have a scatter gun approach to links, posting whole lists of them in a single post.
I have no idea which of your dozens of links you are referring to. Please identify, one at a time, any link you want me to respond to.


08 Jan 17 - 04:44 AM (#3831065)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
You can't defend it like you do then tell us you're not a fan of UKIP. You are numero uno, Keith, and always have been. Unless you're just "putting their side of the story" of course.

I have not defended Ukip, nor put their side of the story.
I do not know what it is.

I just ask that you people substantiate all the claims you make against them.
You have made all the running on this with your accusations, claims and name calling.
When asked for evidence you become indignant and make accusations claims and name calling against the questioner.
You have failed to substantiate one single claim.
Why is that so hard for you?


08 Jan 17 - 05:13 AM (#3831073)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"You have a scatter gun approach to links, posting whole lists of them in a single post."
And you have adopted a policy of ignoring them.
They all indicate that Farage and his little bunch of Kippers are a bunch of racist no-nothings, which is why you ignore them.
If you need me to do your work for you, you have no place here.
You've adopted this diversive tactic before - do your own ***** work
" It was true."
So where the ones I put up - it didn't stop you from dismissing them because they were of the left.
You accept fascist quotes as true and dsmiss those from the left as inadmissible - which, as I said, puts you where you are.
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 05:47 AM (#3831076)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

You want me to "substantiate" the lying bus campaign. You want me to "substantiate" the despicable poster campaign. Tell you what, Keith. I don't believe you are actually in possession of a genuine arse. Can you substantiate it, please?


08 Jan 17 - 06:24 AM (#3831084)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Can I just make my point Keith
People have consistently put up proof of Ukip's racism and extremism, you respond my asking for proof, as if none has been put up (others have pointed this out to you).
I get fed up by putting up a load of lins to evidence - you respond by claiming there is too much.
I really don't think you have a case, do you?
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 06:31 AM (#3831085)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

He's lost it this past week, Jim. Completely.


08 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM (#3831091)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

I Have already said that there is racism to a greater or lesser extent in all parties...the labour party regarding Jews, the SNP regarding English and I suppose some members of the Conservative party have racist views, but your allegations were against Mr Farage personally and you have produced no evidence to even suggest racism against him.
The Bus Campaign had nothing to do with Mr Farage and even if it did, it had no connection to racism.

For the final time, ALL mainstream parties have come to accept Mr Farage's contention that uncontrolled immigration is unsustainable. They may have been dragged screaming and kicking, but accept it they have and this must mean the end of "freedom of movement", this in turn must mean exit from the EU and all it's idiocies.
Nothing to do with race, just political numbers.


08 Jan 17 - 07:55 AM (#3831095)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

I produced evidence of racism earlier.That does not mean every person who voted TO leave is a racist, I am fairly sure Denis Skinner voted leave. HOWEVER FARAGE IS A RACIST AND I PRODUCED EVIDENCE EARLIER.HERE,ANALYSIS OF UKIP'S NIGEL FARAGE'S XENOPHOBIC RHETORIC
14 March 2016       · by European Student Think Tank       · in ambassadors, articles and blogs, EU Foreign Policy, EU Policy Process, Eurocrisis, European Integration, Geen categorie, ISIS, Migration, Religion.       ·
By Matt Evans, British EST Ambassador. Matt is a final year BA (hons) History and Politics student at the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, UK.

16486626570_7f070e3bc4_o

The upcoming June referendum on whether Britain should remain a member of the European Union has once again increased the media's interest in the UK Independence Party, commonly known as UKIP. UKIP, formed in 1993 as a response to increasing European integration, are generally viewed as to the right on the political spectrum of the governing Conservative Party, advocating British withdrawal from the European Union and an end to what they view as "uncontrolled immigration".[1] Under the leadership of the charismatic but divisive Nigel Farage, the party has enjoyed recent electoral success, gaining the most seats and votes in the 2014 European Parliament election, marking the first time since 1910 that a party other than Labour and the Conservatives won the largest number of seats in a national election.[2] This article looks at a speech delivered by leader Farage when campaigning for UKIP in the 2015 UK General Election.

            As a part of the general election campaign the infamous Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, went to Grimsby Town Hall and urged the residents of Grimsby to vote for Victoria Ayling, a local councillor, as their next Member of Parliament[3]. This speech exemplifies a large part of Great Britain's scepticism towards the European Union. Given the situation as it was the general election and Farage was holding a speech in a town known for its fishing, it can be argued that he attempted to ignite a nostalgic and nationalist fire in Grimsby. He begins his speech by stating: "Grimsby used to be a great place"[4]. Already here, Farage is presenting a problem in the United Kingdom namely its lack of sovereignty. It can be argued that this problem is the overarching theme on Farage's agenda since, in his view, it is the root for the sinking fishing industry in Grimsby because of the Common Fisheries Policy, Great Britain's declining living conditions due to the Open Door Policy and the British debt due to the European Union membership.

            Farage gives a historical background of why Great Britain's sovereignty has declined according to his own view, which gives his audience an overview and general knowledge of the problem that Great Britain is currently in. Moreover, it is revealing that Farage had an understanding for his audience. This can be seen, for example, by his focus on the famous fishing industry in Grimsby which illustrates that the speech had a particular audience but also his aggressive quote that "Tony Blair can go to hell"[5] which was received by applause of the audience. He even says sarcastically that he misread the audience when he first mentions Tony Blair, indicating that he knows the audience.

First of all, by igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in the audience, he manages to use the argumentative appeal of pathos. This can be tied into Aristotle's notion of emotions since Farage sparks dissatisfaction or even anger in the audience where Aristotle argues that if an item has importance, people will eventually get angry[6]. In this case, Farage is able to present a broken Great Britain and acknowledge it, which the residents of Grimsby are attached to. This indicates that the residents of Grimsby find an importance in Great Britain. Farage is able to direct that frustration and anger, and pinpoint the lack of sovereignty as the fundamental problem. This use of pathos can be considered rather successful since Farage's aim is convince the residents of Grimsby to vote for Ayling because belief and action are intertwined, according to Aristotle[7], and thus by making that certain belief a constituent part of emotion, Farage is able to gain more votes for UKIP.

            Another argumentative appeal is ethos, which he is able to portray through his view of Europe. By claiming that he is not against Europe as countries and people and that he, in fact, likes Europe, Farage is able to illustrate to the public that he is a concerned man of Great Britain rather than a fearful or discriminating man of Europe. In addition, he also presents himself as a moral character by telling the audience that the other politicians have been abusing him due to UKIP's "sensible" policies as he puts it[8].

            The last argumentative appeal is logos where Farage appeals to the rationality of the voters in Grimsby. This is illustrated when he makes the case that Great Britain should become like Norway and Iceland who have a booming fishing industry and are not a part of the European Union. Also, by giving a historical background of Great Britain's ties with the European Union, he also appeals to the rationality of the audience since they see a chronological timeline of the developing problem in Great Britain.

Farage uses contradictions in order to portray his policies as appealing. This can be exemplified by his view that controlling the borders of the United Kingdom "immigration once again becomes a positive in our country and not a negative"[9]. By using juxtapositions, Farage is able to make the audience differentiate between UKIP and the other parties, making UKIP more appealing to voters. It is also seen that Farage uses examples as inductions such as his argument for an increase in the defence budget that he compares to house insurance and the comparison that British debt is like maxing out a credit card. At the end of the speech, Farage states that he doesn't want to sell out nor have a ministerial car but rather wants to "drive the agenda of British politics the next five years"[10]. Here, an odd metaphor is applied in order to contrast what politicians want compared to what Farage want to do if elected but since it is the first metaphor that Farage uses in the speech, it also emphasises his goal of influencing British politics.

The hostility towards the European Union that Farage represents sums up the split in Great Britain. The latest opinion poll by Comres suggests that 49% of Britons want to remain in the EU whereas 41% wants to leave[11]. By analysing a speech by one of the leading figures of the British euroscepticism, we can clearly see that the charismatic Farage is able to adapt his rhetoric to different situations and the issues he touches upon are strong entities of British nationalism. Whether you agree with him or not, "[R]hetoric proves crucial when it comes to invoking discourses in the audience conducive to the claim made by the representative, and downplaying competing discourses"[12] and this is fundamental to the democratic ideals that Great Britain but also the European Union represent. Thus, it is important to acknowledge euroscepticism as a part of British political discourse since it illustrates the antagonism of views in British society.

All in all, Farage focuses on the particular audience by his examples and comparisons that are specific to the people in Grimsby, which helps igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in Grimsby. Hence, the speech can be considered to be successful since it convinces the audience that the sole problem of British politics is its lack of sovereignty and UKIP can provide the solution to make Grimsby a thriving fishing town again.

[1] UKIP Manifesto 2015 "Immigration" p.10


08 Jan 17 - 07:56 AM (#3831096)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

".the labour party regarding Jews, "
Can't speak for the S.N.P. with any authority, but I suspect that your accusation has about as much substance as does accusations of that made against Labour - there is no evidence whatever of antisemitism being a problem within the ranks of the party and there never will be until somebody provides substance to those claims by describing it.
Traditionally, the extremist right groups and the Tory Party are the natural homes of antisemitism - Tory newspapers advocated fascism and supported the Fascists that took to the streets right up to the poin hen the war made it illegal to do so, and even then, members of parliament and The House of Lords were making pnans for when "Herr Hitler won the war".
For all its other failings, The Labour Party as an organisation, has declared its opposition to all forms of racism and sectarianism - hardly surprising as it came into being with the support of many 19th century Jews fleeing the European pogroms.
If you have any evidence that any of this is not true, then please provide it, otherwise, stop claiming it wiotout evidence.
"For the final time,...."
For the final time, it doesn't matter a tuppenny **** what all mainstream parties have come to accept - Farage if a political pariah, rejected by all the mainstream parties and their press and supporters as an extremist and a racist.
Instead of seeking the support of the politicians you consistently pour scorn on, how about addressing the facts on immigration you have been presented with over and over again, instead of ignoring them over and over again.
You might start with the contention that there is no such thing as uncontrolled immigration - all immigration is subject to controls of one form or another unless it is illegal, and nobody here has supported that, though some of us might understand it, given the predatory nature of the wealthier nations regarding the Third World.
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM (#3831097)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

keith, akeneaton teribus, I have produced evidence of FARAGES XENOPHOBIA, Now for god sake stop.


08 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM (#3831112)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
You want me to "substantiate" the lying bus campaign. You want me to "substantiate" the despicable poster campaign

The bus was nothing to do with Farage. He criticised it but I will give a justification if you want.
You have failed to identify anything despicable in the poster. The image was genuine and similar scenes were shown on every news report at the time.

Jim,
I did not believe the claim linking UKIP to the far right because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.
If it was true the other parties would seize on it and it would be a major story. UKIP would have to show it was untrue or show they had put it right.
None of that has happened.

If you want me to respond to a link, identify it.

People have consistently put up proof of Ukip's racism and extremism

No-one has.

GSS,
I produced evidence of racism earlier

I recall none. Remind us.

I have produced evidence of FARAGES XENOPHOBIA,

You have not.
Presumably you refer to that student's opinion piece that Jim first produced.
It contains no evidence of anything.

Is he out of his teens yet?
Can you produce something from someone with a little more authority and actual knowledge and experience?
Obviously not.


08 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM (#3831114)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I did not believe the claim linking UKIP to the far right because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of."
So what Keith I don't care whether you believe it or not - you dismisssed it because it came from a left wing publication (according to you)
Your attitude is that only vies you approve of are worthy of consideration - a disturbing way to go through life, especially as you seem happy to put up the views of a site run by a paramilitary fascist supporter.
You really don't get it, do you, you are only responded to because you post publicly - I doubt if many people care what you or anybody believe.
You ignore what is said and claim nothing has been put up.
You claim nothing has been put up and when a load of evidence is linked, you whinge that it is too much.
Why shjould abybody waste time identifying anything for you when you are patently not interested in views that don't back up your own?
You still claim nobody has put up evidence of Ukip's extremism - Dick has just done so, I have done so, Dave has done so, so have others you still claim the same - this is mindless beyond belief.
You will not accept anything that does not coincide with your pre-arrived-at views.
Answear all of them or get out of the way and let us continue the debate sensibly
A little more knowledge and experience - which particular "real historian" do you suggest??
Had as a bag of ferrets
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 09:28 AM (#3831120)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

"You have failed to identify anything despicable in the poster. The image was genuine and similar scenes were shown on every news report at the time."

Wow, what a joker. In all my years reading this forum this is the worst case of denial I've ever seen. A racist poster being blindly defended by a racist. Just what this forum needs.


08 Jan 17 - 10:27 AM (#3831133)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
you dismisssed it because it came from a left wing publication (according to you)

No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of."

It would be published by every news agency if it were true.

happy to put up the views of a site run by a paramilitary fascist supporter.

I was not happy to put up theirs or anyone's views.
They published the FACTS about some anti-Semitic tweets.
They were facts. The Labour Party themselves acted on them.

I doubt if many people care what you or anybody believe.

I would not expect them to.
I can and do substantiate what I say.
You people can only resort to personal abuse and name calling.
You have failed to substantiate a single one of your claims.

You still claim nobody has put up evidence of Ukip's extremism - Dick has just done so, I have done so, Dave has done so

None of you have.
If it were true action could and would be taken against UKIP.
It has not.

Steve,
A racist poster being blindly defended by a racist. Just what this forum needs

But, you can not say why the poster is racist.
All you can do is call me names.
You are unable to actually answer anything I have actually said.
You are unable to substantiate any single claim you have made.
You have failed to make any case at all.


08 Jan 17 - 10:44 AM (#3831136)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I've done all that, cloth-ears. Over and over again. Your memory never seems to extend beyond the post before last.


08 Jan 17 - 11:56 AM (#3831159)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.""
It's extremely stupid to lie about something that you've posted on the same site
"Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site."
The Black Triangle campaign is not extreme left, it is an anti racist site whose name is based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.
Don't suppose you'll have the self respect to acknowledge your dishonesty though
Finished here - I'm really not qualifies to deal with somebody with your problems
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 01:30 PM (#3831198)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I t says so in this article in The Guardian, Keith, and in many other sources that I am happy to link if you so desire. But I strongly suspect that you are about to play the 'my sources are better than your sources' game and do not really wish to get involved in that.

Considering I have tried my best to not insult your intelligence in this exchange how do you justify implying that it was a mental illness that told me where the photograph came from?

DtG


08 Jan 17 - 01:47 PM (#3831207)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
I've done all that, cloth-ears. Over and over again.

You have done no such thing.
Prove me wrong.
Put up unequivocal substantiation now and you will shut me up for good.
What is stopping you?
Bring it on.

Put it up and show me up.
If you can't, it will prove that you have failed, ignominiously, to make a case.


08 Jan 17 - 02:02 PM (#3831211)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
don't suppose you'll have the self respect to acknowledge your dishonesty though

No dishonesty from me.
If I was wrong about them being of the left, that is because I was being honest about never having heard of them.
As I said, "It would be published by every news agency if it were true."
It is not published by any reputable site, because it is bollocks.

Dave,
I t says so in this article in The Guardian, Keith,

What does it say Dave?
The opinion that it is racist is expressed but not explained.
The opinion that it is not racist is also expressed, and is explained by Farage.
It says that it was reported to the police "with a complaint that it incites racial hatred and breaches UK race laws."
The police must have disagreed because no action was taken.

Have I missed anything Dave?


08 Jan 17 - 02:18 PM (#3831216)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, you have missed something, Keith. The fact that it says quite categorically A spokesperson for Getty Images confirmed that the picture had been licensed from them and was taken in Slovenia in 2015 by its staff photographer Jeff Mitchell. "It is always uncomfortable when an objective news photograph is used to deliver any political message or subjective agenda. However, the image in question has been licensed legitimately," they said. and that it is, as I said, a picture of refugees on the Croatia/Slovenia border.

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?

DtG


08 Jan 17 - 02:26 PM (#3831221)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"If I was wrong about them being of the left, that is because I was being honest about never having heard of them.!"
Feckin' mad - everything you don't know about must be from the Left
Section him someone
You are a liar Keith - pure and simple
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 04:08 PM (#3831240)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and BTW, how many of the racist statements you say have been made by members of the Labour party have had any police action taken?

Just out of interest.

DtG


08 Jan 17 - 07:16 PM (#3831268)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

None as I'm sure you know Dave
How could there have been if nobody knows what they are?
Bedtime thought
This has to stop - if we persist in pandering to this mindlessness, not only will we have allowed the (I am now sure, deliberate) wrecking of another thread but we might as well forget the BS section altogether.
It's not the first time Keith has adopted this stonewalling tactic and driven a discussion into the point of insanity this one has now reached and, I am convinced his determination to win something will prompt him to do it again whenever he feels like it.
I believe there is more to be said on this subject but, if no-one feels like pursuing it, for crying out loud let's leave him at it.
The resignation of Britain's ambassador made it clear that May's message is "I'm in charge and I haven't a clue where to go now and there is nobody around to tell me"
What happens now?
Jim Carroll


08 Jan 17 - 08:07 PM (#3831274)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 08 Jan 17 - 11:56 AM

"No. I dismissed it "because it came from a group I had never heard of on a site I had never heard of.""
It's extremely stupid to lie about something that you've posted on the same site
"Posted by "Black Triangle Campaign" on some extreme Left site."
The Black Triangle campaign is not extreme left, it is an anti racist site whose name is based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.

I thought the Jews were required to wear a yellow Star of David. According to the Black triangle's own site Black Triangle "The Nazis forced people with mental and other disabilities to wear black triangles in the extermination camps during the Holocaust. The generic classification they used was "Arbeitsscheu" – literally "Workshy". This term is also the one most favoured in our right-wing tabloid press to described incapacity and disability benefit claimants today."
I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!

Apologies for adding some degree of truth to the discussion. I know you slurred me last time I did so. But, what the hell. . .


09 Jan 17 - 02:50 AM (#3831309)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I know, Jim, but as someone with a better command of language than me once said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil was that good men should do nothing."

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 04:13 AM (#3831329)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

You know, most of us can tell whether certain people have integrity or seem like the type of folks we'd like to know, and in daily life we listen to this inner voice of our instinct when dealing with people; it's why we are wary of some people and why they make us feel uncomfortable in their presence. UKIP, the senior tories and the Trump cohort fit s category. They do not seem like nice folk at all.

Farage is a case in point. He stood in front of a poster that was virtually identical to a shot from one of Joseph Goebbels anti-Semitic propaganda films, and no person with an ounce of common decency would do this, but Farage didn't care and did it anyway (it's doubtful the significance of this image was lost on him, he's blessed with more cunning than his blokey persona conveys). This lack of concern for basic moral values is consistent with other senior kippers and tories. Folk like Neil Hamilton, Paul Nuttall and Douglas Carswell all claim to be kippers but in fact occupy their own individual political spheres, and not one of them comes across as trustworty or even pleasant. Boris is a habitual liar and opportunist, IDS and Liam Fox see Brexit as an opportunity to make a mark in political careers most people had consigned to history.

We get a gut feeling about people and in the case of the modern alt-right that feeling is overwhelming; these are not pleasant folk and are not to be trusted in the long run. Farage, Trump and many of the current slew of senior right wingers provoke these feelings amongst people and the supporters of these folk need to understand this: we don't trust them, don't like their moral and ethical ambiguity and are not the sort of folk we would sit down for a pint with in the pub.

They're not nice folk, and we don't want them representing us. Why should we line up behind them? They are for themselves, not for decent, honest people.


09 Jan 17 - 04:39 AM (#3831336)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!"
Where on earth did that come from - of course I am not and anybody who has read any off my posts on the subject would never suggest such a thing
The Nazis forced anybody they deemed unfit to live in their society to wear identification insignia.
I don't include people with mental disabilities unfit to live anywhere - do you?
I have to say, I didn't realise that the Black triangle was confined to those with mental disabilities - you live and learn.
The point I was making about the group Keith rejected because it is LEFT WING, isn't - it is basically anti racist, but I have little doubt that it opposes other types of prejudice and persecution, this sort of organisation tends to.
Stu sums my feeling up perfectly about Ukip
They have let the mask slip occasionally, but they have avoided the pitfalls that B.N.P. fell into by being openly racist in order to gain a degree of respectability, but they are two sides of the one coin - the mask-slips have only confirmed what is obvious.
They are a party based on Xenophobia, with no policy on any other aspect of British life
As far as Brexit is concerned, they played to the basic fears and uncertainties of people and it payed off for them.
I fear that the populism they adopted will become a common feature of future elections - it happened in the U.S. and in Italy and there is a possibility that it could start to happen in Europe and destroy anything that the E.U. produced.
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM (#3831340)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?


I would not, because non of that was ever disputed Dave.
There is nothing there to object to.

Jim,
Feckin' mad - everything you don't know about must be from the Left
The significant fact is that they are obscure and unknown.
If the story was true it would be on all the news sites.

Stu, we all have gut feelings and instincts, but they have no place in a rational discussion.
UKIP politics and ours may be incompatible, and they may give rise to uncomfortable feelings, but it does not make them "loathsome," "racist," "xenophobic," "repulsive" or any of the other silly names thrown about here with no actual knowledge or facts to back them.


09 Jan 17 - 05:25 AM (#3831343)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 12:12 PM

What is the significance? Are you even sure of the fact?

1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.
2. Yes.

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 07 Jan 17 - 12:36 PM

...
Dave,
1. Whatever you deem it to be, Keith.

That would be none then Dave. How about you?

2. Yes.

How are you sure Dave? Voices?

From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 09 Jan 17 - 05:15 AM

Dave,

Now, why would you say it was voices in my head that told me that?

I would not, because non of that was ever disputed Dave.
There is nothing there to object to.


Up there in black and white, Keith. You suggest it was 'voices' that told me it was true. Now, once again I ask, why would you suggest it was voices that told me?

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 05:44 AM (#3831349)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well Stu's post summed up very well why there are millions of decent, hard-working, working class people who would rather have their throats cut than even contemplate ever voting Tory or UKIP. It doesn't matter a fig whether "the Tories run the economy more efficiently" (they don't as it happens and never have done), cut taxes, are tougher on the things you might want a government to be tougher on (it doesn't work when they get tough anyway). They are Tories because they believe in enterprise that is exploitative of ordinary people in the name of profit and because they don't care much for inconveniences such as sick and disabled people, the poor and the unemployed. They do care quite a lot for numero uno's interests. So I think posts like his have an important place in debate, which is damn sight more than can be said for some of your lopsided, stonewalling efforts.


09 Jan 17 - 05:56 AM (#3831350)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"but they have no place in a rational discussion."

Really? How do you work that out? We live our very lives by using instinct and experience to guide us. We have all known people that seem to


"but it does not make them "loathsome," "racist," "xenophobic," "repulsive" or any of the other silly names thrown about here with no actual knowledge or facts to back them."

In the case of "loathsome" and "repulsive" then it certainly does, from a personal point of view. As for being "racist" and "xenophobic", then history has given us the warning signs and we must be wary of demagogues promising to return to out former glory.

The Mirror covered the story here, with screenshots.

The demonisation of scientists and other "experts" by the alt-right is the thin end of the wedge, a tactic straight out of the authoritarian handbook. Artists of all disciplines, free thinkers, intellectuals, writers, journalists and musicians are all feeling the heat from the rise of the right in the UK and the US. Take that with the descriptions by alt-right commentators and Prime Minsters of refugees as "a swarm", a "bunch of migrants", "cockroaches" and any other number of dehumanising slurs and it's not hard to see which way the wind is blowing.

It's perfectly acceptable to suggest that the feeling that someone is unpleasant is a reason for not kowtowing to their line of thought or political persuasion. These feelings seem to be correct; I see nothing in the conduct of Farage, Nuttall or their new Messiah Trump that makes me think these people are worthy of giving my allegiance or backing to.

I'm interested in fundamental truth and whilst it would be fair to say many politicians avoid these truths, the likes of Farage et al actively subvert and obfuscate facts for their own ends. These people are unethical, amoral and narcissistic demagogues that lie and deceive because it's their own views are too unpalatable to be aired without being obscured by rhetoric.

We are a better society than this, we can find better leaders who aren't in thrall to the markets above everything else and who don't sow division to strengthen their own position or demonise the less fortunate and who eschew truth for lies.

I won't stand alongside these people who don't value progress and compassion and what is best about the human spirit, about our creativity and curiosity. I've got 6 million reasons to reject them and their vile politics.


09 Jan 17 - 06:23 AM (#3831360)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Social "progress"(I take it you mean "progressive" politics) and compassion don't fund the NHS, look after the old people or those left behind by globalisation.
We live in a Capitalist society and in such a society we require wealth producers......that is the plain truth.
To get the wealth producers to invest here we need a low tax economy which permits profit taking. If we do not provide these things the economy fails, we borrow money, we print money until we attain third world status.
Capitalism does not run on compassion or "progressive" social policies, it runs on profit and when it can no longer work efficiently it moves on.

Your choice is not between conservatives and "progressives" it is a choice between systems and between realistic lifestyles.


09 Jan 17 - 06:29 AM (#3831361)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

"I hope you're not suggesting that the Jews had mental disabilities!"
Where on earth did that come from

That came from your claim that based on the Black Triangle Jewish concentration camp inmates were forced to wear.

I don't include people with mental disabilities unfit to live anywhere - do you?
No, I don't. But I haven't posted anything that could possibly be taken as suggesting that I do.


09 Jan 17 - 06:43 AM (#3831365)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

I have no intention of diverting this thread for a nonsensical claim Nigel - if you believe I think Jews are mentally deficient, say so, if not, stop it.
"
To get the wealth producers to invest"
The peeople who produce the wealth in society are those who work, not those who provide investment.
Without the skills and knowledge of the producers of goods and services, society would grind to a halt tomorrow
Without investment, society would have to change radically, but we really would manage.
One of the greatest evils of our society is that it is geared to the wealthy at the cost of the producers - proof of this is to be found in the fact that the largest percentage of Britain's imports is finance.
Please don't feed Keith's trollism Dave, we can get by without it just as well as we can manage without investors - it just needs a bit of radical change on this forum.
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 07:00 AM (#3831369)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Someone has to manage the investment of all resources, Jim, and that lies at the heart of the science of economics. Investing capital is just a methodology of moving the ownership of one resource to someone or something else and that, at present, is done using the concept of money. Unless that was abolished we will always be reliant on capital investment and, just at the moment, I cannot see a viable alternative to the use of money. I feel it is the unregulated use of capital and making of too much money simply by investing that needs more consideration and there does seem to be a movement of responsible and ethical entrepreneurs. I could be wrong of course but maybe the Tory party making the right noises at least is an indication that they are beginning to realise this. Hence the thread.

As to the other topic, I was just defending myself from the suggestion that I had made something up or, even worse, was hearing voices that told me things!

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 07:06 AM (#3831370)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

But you promote and protect this system from change. You wish to see living standards rise for ever. That is impossible under any system, and this particular system is not inclined to look after those who are deemed unprofitable?

We are going to have to accept that we cannot do exactly as we please in the future.


09 Jan 17 - 07:14 AM (#3831372)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Stu.,
Really? How do you work that out?

In reasoned debate, how you feel is of no significance.
If your feeling is not based on any actual fact or knowledge, then it is just a whim. A preconception.

An opinion that can not be supported has no significance to anyone else.

A debate is not, "Yes he is." "No he is not."

It should be, "I believe he is because..."

None of those denigrating Farage and UKIP have been able to do that.
Just unsupported claims and opinions based on nothing.


09 Jan 17 - 07:18 AM (#3831374)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
You suggest it was 'voices' that told me it was true.

The relevant exchange was,

"Are you even sure of the fact?"

"2. Yes."

"How are you sure Dave? Voices?"


I can not remember what "the fact" was now. Can you? Does it matter?


09 Jan 17 - 07:21 AM (#3831375)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"Your choice is not between conservatives and "progressives" it is a choice between systems and between realistic lifestyles."

I don't agree, the choice isn't between absolutes and this is why Farage and Trump need to be rejected; they seek to impose authoritarianism on our society in such a way they and their billionaire mates continue to profit massively from the oppression of wages and worker's rights across the globe. They aren't interested in paying us proper wages to do the jobs eastern europeans won't be able to do from now on but have accepted low pay for, they'll force us to do them for the same money.

Capitalism needs regulation as it is utterly incapable of self-regulating itself. Contrary to the bleats of free-marketeers (inc. brexiteers), wealth does not trickle down and will not act with any degree of social responsibility to the society it relies on to exist and this is it's failure.

This is why the divisiveness of Farage etc is so damaging; it allows the free market to exploit the weakest and least represented people.


09 Jan 17 - 07:23 AM (#3831376)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes I can - That the poster was based on a picture of refugees on the border between Croatia and Slovenia in 2015. The fact itself has little bearing on the fact that you suggested it was 'voices' that had told me it was. You have not yet explained why you would suggest such a thing let alone apologised.

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 07:34 AM (#3831381)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
That the poster was based on a picture of refugees on the border between Croatia and Slovenia in 2015. The fact itself has little bearing on the fact that you suggested it was 'voices' that had told me it was.

That could not have been the fact.
You could have got that fact from me! I had already posted,

07 Jan 17 - 05:01 AM

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?

What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants,


The poster was of non European migrants crossing EU borders, which was a legitimate issue and not racist.


09 Jan 17 - 07:38 AM (#3831382)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Smoke and mirrors, Keith. I posted a fact. You suggested I had some sort of mental issue. It is there for all to see.

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 07:52 AM (#3831384)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Someone has to manage the investment of all resources, Jim,"
An elected and answerable government can do this as well as those whose entire reason for being their is self interest.
It began to happen in 1945 and petered out when the politicians and Trades Union leaders were bought into the system.
You don't put a chocoholic in charge of quality control of a chocolate factory.
"You wish to see living standards rise for ever."
It has never been like that, it is a matter of stopping living standards falling, as they are at present to an incredible degree across the board - go look at the rising gap between haves and have nots.
Jim Carrill


09 Jan 17 - 07:52 AM (#3831385)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Capitalism cannot be regulated. The more you try to regulate financial aspiration the more quickly it fails.
It is bound to fail eventually even in booming economies as lifestyles and living standards make financial aspiration unsustainable, but it fails more quickly with heavy regulation.
"Boom and Bust" are endemic to the system


09 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM (#3831387)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW Keith - The first mention of what the picture was was by me on 06 Jan 17 - 12:08 PM. Your mention of it on the 7th was in direct response to that. Something else that everyone else can see.

07 Jan 17 - 05:01 AM

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015,

What is your objection?


I am not at all sure why you chose to post

What would you like to be linked to exactly - the racist poster, the rants about immigrants

That is not something I have ever mentioned. I think you may be getting two things confused here.

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM (#3831390)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Government control of resources has failed in the past, Jim. The fall of the eastern bloc communist states has attested to that. There has to be a compromise where we all work together. Whether that is the European model of having worker representatives on the controlling board of corporations is yet to be seen but I think that is a good move.

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM (#3831394)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Government control of resources has failed in the past, Jim"
Only because the people in charge of them bought into the system Dave
Even the short time they were experimented with brought enormous life-changing benefits to our lives - all we have left now is a still unique health service.
Ake's attitude is typical "Capitalism cannot be regulated."
Unbridled capitalism has failed utterly - if it cannot be regulated, it will destroy society utterly - it is there to provide wealth for the wealthy and we have been made part of that objective.
Those of us who are of no benefit to the objective are discarded - all the safeguards that were fought for over the centuries have been removed - a voice in our workplaces, a right to notice should our jobs disappear, security of tenure... even our health service is under attack.
Take a look at Trump's plans for the future, health, global warming, civil rights.... and you have what we are in line for.
We change society or we end up with Fascism, where we have not even the pretence of a say that we have now.
One of the interesting terms that has sprung up here recently is "Vulture Capitalism' based around Goldman Sachs and the like buying up huge swathes of rented property, evicting the tenants and "gentrifying the accommodation".
Within a year Ireland is experiencing a homelessness crisis.
Capitalism is changing, so must those who live under it - simple as that
For all her warm words, Theresa May doesn't speak for those changes, or any change - she is the Iron Lady in velvet gloves which will fall off when she no longer has use for them
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 08:56 AM (#3831396)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I agree entirely Jim. Unbridled capitalism has failed utterly. But would you not agree that unbridled communism suffered the same fate? Surely there must be a happy medium somewhere that benefits everyone. Whether that is putting a bridle on either capitalism or communism or whether the route lies elsewhere is yet to be seen and is an interesting topic. Far more interesting than most of the crap that has been posted so far on this thread anyway ;-)

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 09:18 AM (#3831399)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"But would you not agree that unbridled communism suffered the same fate? "
What passed for Communism did, but only because it was unregulated and became beyond the control of the people.
Making any system of government answerable seems to be a solution.
In the meantime, we have to live under what we have and that depends on getting politicians we can trust
Corbyn is making the right noises, and the amount of hatred from the right he has generated (both on and off Mudcat) can only be a sign that he's coming from the right place
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 09:35 AM (#3831402)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

D the G. Capitalism is doomed to failure as is socialism and communism.
One road leads to concentrated wealth and social division, the other to eventual bankruptcy. Corporation exist purely to generate profit, they cannot have any morality. Within all these there must be elements to be experimented with that could be successful.
Continual rape of resources for ever greater profits benefits no one and degrades both individuals and the environment-yet what else is production based on?(apart from carpenters and brickies) These resources are also finite (Britain is riddled with disused mine workings)
The existing economic paradigm is well and truly busted. What can replace it? Kropotkin's idealistic view of worker run enterprises and self governing communities will not work-it is too simplistic.
Perhaps eradicating globalism and making production more local. In this way both the sins and benefits can be clearly discerned, and logical decisions made. This could not possibly occur until corporations were made subject to moral laws as well as market forces.(I wish anyone luck trying to pursue that idea.) There are many other avenues that could be followed but change will not be easy.
The existing system is already stressed politically and economically. and this is against a background of uncontrolled urban growth, exploding populations and climate change adding yet more difficulties to an already complex situation.


09 Jan 17 - 09:37 AM (#3831403)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I think that is the crux of the matter - Beyond the control of the people. If the government is beyond the control of the people and business is beyond control of the government then we we always be on a hiding to nothing! Regulation of business and government is needed for it to work fairly for all but then of course we get the eternal question; who regulates the regulators? It is this type of riddle that has puzzled economists and politicians for years. They seem to have no real answers but tell the people that they have!

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 09:44 AM (#3831407)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't see how eradicating globalism could help, Iains. The world's resources are global and should be managed for everyone. Localisation of resource would result in the resource rich areas growing prosperous while those lacking will starve. If you have a way round that I would be interested to hear it.

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 09:55 AM (#3831413)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Communism has never been more than a theory, totally untested
Socialism to some has brought benefits whenever it has been tried.
What is a workable alternative?
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 10:06 AM (#3831416)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Perhaps globalism was the wrong term. It is more a case of multinational companies creating the economic face of globalism. They have no national allegiance by definition. Unless tightly controlled they create environmental damage in their extractive role. They export production to the lowest cost base, employ armies of accountants to avoid taxation. Pursuit of profit is paramount no matter what the social cost. Obviously world trade must occur but the adopted methods of today of stateless economies of scale come with a huge social cost that is apparently the responsibility of no-one. Again it comes down to the legal entity of a corporation having no responsibilities other than pursuit of profit apart from local legislation at origin and destination that often seems woefully inadaquate.
It seems to me this system must inevitably self destruct at some point because pursuit of minimum cost must inevitably impoverish the market at some future point.


09 Jan 17 - 10:08 AM (#3831417)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

That should be export production from the lowest cost base. I hit send too soon


09 Jan 17 - 10:30 AM (#3831425)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

That's OK Iains. I got the gist anyway and, yes, that type of globalisation is a worry. Globalisation is probably the wrong description in that case but it is difficult to coin a new phrase isn't it! I understand what you mean now and, yes, it is something that needs to be addressed. Not sure how to go about it apart from, as we have been saying, regulation of business by government, regulation of government by people. To eliminate global 'buy cheap, sell dear' tactic though yet another globalistion must occur. That of global resource management by the governments of all countries. It is no good us telling companies to stop making vast profits, They will simply not comply. They must be made to be fairer and that means hitting the profits if they do not. Globally!

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 11:15 AM (#3831429)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

"
This is why the divisiveness of Farage etc is so damaging"


The acquiescence of the "liberal" left to the status quo is much more damaging to the promotion of systemic change than Mr Farage ever was.


09 Jan 17 - 11:16 AM (#3831430)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW - Is there any significance in that, at the moment at least, Theresa May's new year message is followed by the thread "Pantomime"?

:D tG


09 Jan 17 - 11:28 AM (#3831431)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

I recommend a read of the link. Perhaps within encapsulates both the origin of where we are today and the wrong avenues taken.

https://newint.org/features/2002/07/05/history/

Also the first factories. Arkwright had a phenomenal social conscience for his time, rather different to the East India Company and the modern corporation.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/britain-1700-to-1900/industrial-revolution/factories-in-the-industrial-revolution/


09 Jan 17 - 11:45 AM (#3831433)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I'll flag those for a read when I have more time - At a glance they look interesting but I doubt if such a short article as the first will tell the full story. Still, certainly a good place to start so thank you.

The point being made about Arkwright is also quite significant. People like Elon Musk and a few others do seem to be realising that responsible capitalism is better than just grabbing the resources, including labour, in the cheapest way possible. Arkwright did it, as did Salt and Lever afterwards. Treating your workers properly pays dividends, to coin a capitalist phrase :-)

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 11:51 AM (#3831436)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"The acquiescence of the "liberal" left to the status quo"

This sentence means nothing, it's too fuzzy and vague. Who are the "liberal" left? Why is "liberal" in quotes? Define "liberal" left in terms an idiot like me can understand.


09 Jan 17 - 12:07 PM (#3831440)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Good heavens the evils of profit - any of you wondered where pension funds get the money to pay out? Or do you all actually believe that profits all go into the pockets of "evil" capitalists.

Capitalism is NOT a political system. It has far from been disproven nor has it failed as an economic system, it is still going strong, while communism has collapsed as both an economic and a political system.

Also there has been the idiotic belief that only capitalists that exploit the world's resources - in the 1990s I had the opportunity to witness the rape of mother earth "Soviet" style - horrendous was no understatement of the environmental damage done.

Those putting this line of complete and utter BS out should take a look at what "globalisation" has done since 1990. The "World's" economy has doubled, the number of people living in poverty has halved and this is supposed to be bad? If anybody tries to tell me that people in general are worse off today than they were fifty years ago or 100 years ago then you are delusional.


09 Jan 17 - 12:20 PM (#3831451)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

It should be "acquiescence in" anyway, Stu. The man can do no right.


09 Jan 17 - 12:29 PM (#3831456)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Capitalism is NOT a political system."
It is an economic system that is based on political support centered on the privileged
"Also there has been the idiotic belief that only capitalists that exploit the world's resources"
Every system exploits the world's resources and always has
Capitalism does so for profit rather than for the good of humanity and inbui;ty into that exploitation is waste
- we live in an age where we throw things away rather than repair them - because it is more profitable to do so.
Capitalism is incapable of exploiting responsibly if it is not profitable.
" any of you wondered where pension funds get the money to pay out?"
"Good heavens" didn't you know.
Pension funds are paid for out of profits earned by the workers - no profits, no pesnsions.
Do you really believe they are paid for as a free handout from benevolent employers?   
Similarly with state pensions, which are paid from our txes - do you think the Government reaches into its own pocket to hand them out.
You would think so to hear some Tories talk.
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 12:30 PM (#3831458)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Tell us how Donald Trump came by his billions, Teribus, then tell us how capitalism is so efficient at making everyone better off and bringing about a fairer world. By the way, stop prattling on about the evils of communism. You know damn well that no political system that comes anything like close to communism has ever been tried on a significant scale. It's just a buzzword used by people who want to diss China and the USSR for ideological reasons rather than real reasons (of which there are plenty). Modern-day China is as capitalist as capitalism can be.


09 Jan 17 - 12:35 PM (#3831461)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
BTW Keith - The first mention of what the picture was was by me on 06 Jan 17 - 12:08 PM.


Wrong.
I described it before you at 11.52 AM, in response to Jim, Steve and
Alan Conn who had all described it even earlier.


09 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM (#3831464)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Teribus
Capitalism can only exist within certain political frameworks so to distinguish it from a political system can create difficulties.
I do not think anyone would argue that governments cannot exploit resources-the vast bulk of the world's oil resources are under government control-although in the Middle East it can be argued as to which particular government controls the oil. The oil majors have had a declining share for decades.
The world economy may have doubled since 1990 but it has done nothing to protect the rust belt or many industrial workers in the UK. The trade partnerships that are being negotiated in complete secrecy would appear, from the little publicised details to, benefit the corporations solely.
The capitalist system may provide pension funds with cash for reinvestment but how many are signed up to private pensions today?
Social investment is an alien concept for the capitalist system and the continual flight to low cost production, taxation and regulation reduces the ability of government to fund pensions and welfare.
It is a flawed system and benefits a minority only. To me it appears that as the system grows more agile in preserving profit it will surely cause it's own downfall.


09 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM (#3831471)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Did you really, Keith? You mean the 11.52AM post that said

The poster showed a genuine picture of migrants waiting to enter Europe so they were non-Europeans, but not black actually.

Which is somewhat different to my post some 16 minutes later that said

The photograph used was of migrants crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border in 2015, with the only prominent white person in the photograph obscured by a box of text.

But, yes, both are factually accurate so I suppose you win in the game of nitpicking. But you still have not let us know why you think it was some sort of mental illness that made me add more detail about it and I doubt you ever will.

Teribus - We are in some agreement! Coon ground at last :-) Globalisation is not a bad thing as the resources of the world are being used as intended - for the benefit of the world! If only all others could see it as such. I have also argued long and hard that communism as we have seen it is not the answer but you must concede that capitalism is not perfect either. As I keep saying, surely there must be a compromise that takes the best of both worlds? I like to see it as capitalism regulated by the government but the government regulated by people and consumerism may work just as well. We are of course just conceptualising anyway.

Cheers

DtG


09 Jan 17 - 01:04 PM (#3831472)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

A typical example of the inbuilt wasteful nature of capitalism is to be found in agriculture.
We used to be regular visitors to North Norfolk and numerous local people described how the coastal area, which used to be full of small farms, were bought up by multi-nationals who immediately tore down the hedgerows to facilitate their large machines.
Within a few years the East wind had lifted off the topsoil, leaving the land unfarmable.
MacColl and Seeger found a similar situation in the Scottish Borders over thirty years ago, where small farmers were being driven out by rent and food stock-increases and the land sold of to multi-nationals and The Forestry commission - are left unfathomable by overuse and the planting of trees which poisoned the lands for any other use.
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 01:05 PM (#3831473)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Coon ground? The area in which racoons breed? Should of course be common ground :-)


09 Jan 17 - 03:07 PM (#3831517)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

As far as I am aware East Anglia and Lincolnshire are still the richest farming areas in England.

As far as the Scottish Borders go I'd like to know the Multi-Nationals that came in to buy up the land from all those small farmers. Most farms in the Scottish Borders are tenanted with land being owned principally by the Duke of Buccleugh and Lord Lothian.


09 Jan 17 - 03:40 PM (#3831523)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"As far as I am aware East Anglia and Lincolnshire are still the richest farming areas in England."
Not around the coast, they're not
"I'd like to know the Multi-Nationals that came in to buy up the land from all those small farmers. "
Why?
MacColl's song The Tenant Farmer was taken directly from interviews of ex-farmers in the Eskdalemuir area (Sandyford, to be exact) who had all lost their land as the song describes - they are archived at Ruskin.
There is a chance of course that you might know more than they do - stranger things happened at sea, as the saying goes!!
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM (#3831529)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

What a better world it would be all round if there were no such things as tenant farmers. No duke of this, that or the other ever made a square inch of land. All he's interested in is his tenant farmers making a profit for him while he attends "important meetings" to discuss how he can maximise profits even more (which he won't necessarily share with his farmers, of course) or simply sits on his backside. Farmers who own the land they farm on have to work very hard to make their farms pay. They have to tend it in such a way that it's in even better condition for passing on. That's how it should be. You only have to look at the parlous nature of arable land in this country to see why tenanted farms are a very poor substitute for farmers who own the land they work. Most farms in this country can't grow wheat or barley that's good enough for bread or beer. They grow feed fit only for animals on other farms and we import our wheat from Canada and barley from God knows where. Arable farms in this country are run as factory floors, just sufficiently to avoid them becoming dust bowls in summer.


09 Jan 17 - 07:54 PM (#3831581)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"What a better world it would be all round if there were no such things as tenant farmers."
One of the great contradictions of 'progress' has been that, as the small farms have disappeared the whole system of agriculture has become short term and therefore less efficient in the long run.
Even under feudalism, farmers would tend the farms carefully to produce a livelihood for his family and so that they could pass them on to their children.
They were knowledgeable of the elements and of the characteristics of the land and crops and worked on that knowledge.
We were told by North Norfolk farmers that the average life of the massive agricultural holdings was five years max, by which time the multis had covered their investment and would then move on to something more profitable, leaving the old farms overworked and without topsoil - short-termism and waste.
Jim Carroll


09 Jan 17 - 08:26 PM (#3831586)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Absolutely, Jim. The state of our soil is the starkest condemnation of naked capitalism you'll see. And round here, on perfectly good land, they grow linseed that no-one needs and which yields three-quarters of a ton per acre. They have to spray the whole crop with herbicide in September in order to kill the haulm and dessicate the crop for harvesting. The fields look like deserts for ten months of the year, but why should anyone worry about that! The same land could grow three tons per acre of wheat or barley, or much more tonnage of spuds, nearly as much if grown organically, amazing stuff for bread or beer or chips. The latest money-spinner is maize, which is the worst possible crop for soil erosion if grown on slopes. It's all slopes in north Cornwall, but who cares! Then there's elephant grass, once planted yielding an annual crop with no effort at all. The ultimate monoculture. It's all over Cornwall like a rash. So what's elephant grass, human food, animal feed? Why no - it's grown, on land perfect for growing food, for biofuel!   

And before Teribus chimes in, yes, it's EU subsidies and the CAP. Can't deny that. One of the biggest inanities of the EU. Strange, though, how the people who take most advantage of it are the most anti-EU of the lot. As the yanks say, go figure.


10 Jan 17 - 02:49 AM (#3831609)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Onto your stereotypes again Shaw?

I'd dearly love you to explain this bit of nonsense:

"Farmers who own the land they farm on have to work very hard to make their farms pay. They have to tend it in such a way that it's in even better condition for passing on. That's how it should be."

It is exactly the same view taken by ANY landowner, they have been looking after and passing on land in some cases for centuries.

As far as what crops are grown - that is entirely up to the farmer, tenant or freeholder, - the owner of the land does not dictate what crop is grown, neither does the owner of the land take any of a tenant farmers profit, the tenant farmer pays a fixed amount agreed at the time the tenancy is signed, what profit he makes are his own to use as he sees fit. On the farms in the Scottish borders some tenant farmers have held their tenancy for generations. In case of death the tenant farmer does not pay death duties on the land he farms, the land owner, or more correctly his estate, on the other hand does when he dies.

We don't grow wheat or barley good enough for brewing or baking? As far as Scotland is concerned all I can say is that you have got to be kidding. Example: "Born in the Borders" Brewery, part of the Chesters Estate, they brew real ales from ingredients grown entirely on the estate, their award winning visitors centre promotes local produce, a tremendous success story and all the vision of the very personable, energetic and hard working land owner. Ever wonder what they use in the distillation process to make all that Whisky Shaw?

At no time at all have I ever heard of Cornwall being described as the "bread basket" of England. Could the reason for that have something to do with the quality of the soil, size of farms/fields and topography of the place? To fit it into the scheme of things as contributions to the economy of Cornwall goes, agriculture contributes something like £336 million, tourism on the other hand contributes £1.85 billion.


10 Jan 17 - 03:22 AM (#3831611)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Jim Carroll - 09 Jan 17 - 07:54 PM

"What a better world it would be all round if there were no such things as tenant farmers." - Steve Shaw

One of the great contradictions of 'progress' has been that, as the small farms have disappeared the whole system of agriculture has become short term and therefore less efficient in the long run.
Even under feudalism, farmers would tend the farms carefully to produce a livelihood for his family and so that they could pass them on to their children."


Absolutely priceless Jim - I suggest you go and look up and study what the Feudal System meant and how it was run - a Feudal farmer had no right to pass anything onto anyone, the land belonged to the Lord of the Manor and he could do with it what he liked when he liked. The Yeoman farmer did not appear until the late 14th Century, and they were normally attendants of a noble family who were rewarded for their services and given land {Normally no less than 100 acres} under freehold, leasehold or copyhold.

As to the efficiency of farming I think that you will find that farming in the UK has become increasingly efficient over the years from the feudal times you seem to have a hankering for up until we joined the EU, or common market, when others started messing about with what became profitable to grow, or not grow on our land. Thankfully those days are about to end.


10 Jan 17 - 03:53 AM (#3831616)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I suggest you go and look up and study what the Feudal System meant and how it was run"
I know how the feudal system was run thanks all the same
anf I'nm not advocating a return to a primitive system.
What I was pointing out that the condition of the land was in safer hands then than it is now - nothing more.
I did not suggest that the land was "passed on" in ownership - it was retained and tended for by the same families who worked on it and depended on it and it was respected, even then, by the landowners who owned it.
That is no longer the case with the present owners, as demonstrated in North Norfolk and the Borders.
In the short term, farming may be more efficient for making a quick buck, but that was never what farming was about - what has disappeared is working for the future..
You've never quite got over your strutting habit of talking down to people - please don't lapse back into your old ways.
Jim Carroll


10 Jan 17 - 04:46 AM (#3831628)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Recent figures suggest 80% of wheat for breadmaking is home grown. This is a much higher percentage than back in the 70's.
According to the European Environmental Agency:
    105 million ha., or 16 % of Europe's total land area (excluding Russia) were estimated to be affected by water erosion in the 1990s.
    Some 42 million ha. of land were estimated to be affected by wind erosion, of which around 1 million ha. were categorised as being severely affected.
    A recent new model of soil erosion by water has estimated the surface area affected in the EU‐27 at 130 million ha. Almost 20 % is subjected to soil loss in excess of 10 tonnes/ha./year.
    Increased variations in rainfall pattern and intensity will make soils more susceptible to water erosion, with off-site effects of soil erosion increasing.
    Increased aridity will make finer-textured soils more vulnerable to wind erosion, especially if accompanied by a decrease in soil organic matter levels.
According to Defra: degradation processes that threaten soil resources include: i) soil erosion, ii) organic matter decline, iii) compaction, iv) salinisation, v) landslides, vi) contamination vii) soil sealing, and viii) loss of biodiversity. Whilst not all these are necessarily significant in England and Wales, estimates for the UK put the total marginal cost of soil degradation at between £206-315 million per year. Evidence suggests that these costs are incurred in many different ways, affecting diverse ecosystems and stakeholders, over a range of spatial and temporal scales.
If it is assumed that climate change generates more extreme weather events, these will adversely impact soil erosion and degradation.
Both erosion and degradation are being taken far more seriously than previously with remote sensing being utilised.Previously the concepts were recognised but now there is a real attempt to quantify the processes/problems/costs.

http://www.ukauthority.com/data4good/entry/6796/defra-raises-sights-for-satellite-data


10 Jan 17 - 06:21 AM (#3831640)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

The Somerset Levels flood disaster was hugely exacerbated by the fact that the main drains were heavily silted. That is the result of poor farming practices leading to soil erosion. The taxpayer then has to subsidise farming (again!) by paying for the dredging. You don't have to drive far from here to see fields left bare all winter, ready for the next sowing of maize. Disastrous. Soils lacking organic matter need greater and greater inputs of polluting artificial fertilisers. Monoculture means herbicides. What the farmers round here call blackgrass is a menace that can only be controlled by the most vicious herbicides. It also means a constant war against pests, the latest nuclear option being neonicotinoid insecticides which are systemic, killing bees and working up the food chain. Enjoy your breakfast. Songbird populations are being devastated by bad farming practices. I know one farmer a mile or two from here who has farmed all his life who doesn't know one bird from another nor one wild flower from another. The big farm down the road has built a large cafe with a lake in front of it and calls itself a "wildlife centre" (well, I suppose he has some very nice pictures of wildlife on his walls, most of which wildlife you'll have to get off his farm if you want to see any of it). You can walk across his huge fields in summer if you don't mind labouring through tedious groves of maize, linseed or oilseed rape. At least you can still see the sea in the distance. You won't see a butterfly or hear a bird singing in any of those fields. You might get lucky and see the odd wildflower poking out of one of the few stone walls that are left.

The house I live in is my house. I bought it and I love it. It now has a new roof and better windows than when we moved in and I've transformed my garden from an open field into a tree, shrub and flower-filled paradise for wildlife and a nice place to sit out in summer. I grow tomatoes and cucumbers in my greenhouse and I grow a lot of my own veg. I have occasion to visit people who live in privately-rented houses. The fixtures and fittings are selected for utility and cheapness, aesthetic considerations coming a very poor third. The "gardens" are patches of grass which are seldom cut often enough to keep them looking healthy, and the houses and gardens in the street are all the same. They are houses, not homes. No-one loves them and they are really just there to provide profits for landlords in order to give them "returns on their investment." They charge whatever rent they like and can kick out their tenant at a month's notice. If repairs are need the landlord is generally reluctant to cough up and the tenant, despite paying a thousand a month or more, will generally have a lot of hassle before anything gets done. At the end of the tenancy the landlord will do his level best to find excuses not to return the tensnt's deposit.

If you own your house, or your farm, you will have to love it if you want to make it even better than when you first took it on. The hard work you do will all be on your own behalf. If you're a tenant, and someone you hardly ever see owns the house or land, you won't love it because it will never actually be yours. If you look after it well it will be out of a sense of duty or misplaced loyalty to the squire, or because you're scared that he'll throw you out. This isn't just modern life, it's always been like this and look at the state of the place. If you ever drive on the road that goes past Stonehenge as I sometimes do, force yourself to look at the soulless countryside, run by the barley barons who get enough in subsidies to buy my house once a year. Those ancient Britons, who actually understood the land, if they could see what we've done would certainly have some suggestions, probably stated in very fruity language, as to what we could do with our "progress."


10 Jan 17 - 07:02 AM (#3831647)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

"That is no longer the case with the present owners, as demonstrated in North Norfolk and the Borders." - Jim Carroll

Eskdalemoor Jim? 75,000 acres have been owned by the Dukes of Buccleuch for roughly 500 years. Same owner owns 61,000 acres in the Ettrick and Yarrow valleys for roughly the same period of time. Both areas have been extensively and successfully farmed for years, leases may have been sold, tenants changed but little land actually sold. The current owners have looked after their land and have done so for rather a long time.

So multi-nationals only use massive tracts of arable land for five years then move on as the land is no longer of any use do they? At that rate Jim East Anglia would have become a desert by the end of the 20th century. Typical example of your over emotive twaddle, the area still remains to be one of the most productive arable farming areas in the United Kingdom.

The population of the UK has risen from roughly 45 million in 1945 to roughly 65 million today and we grow 80% of the grain required to bake Britain's bread. As far as our fishing and our agriculture goes rule by the diktat of the EU Commission has been a complete and utter disaster.


10 Jan 17 - 07:45 AM (#3831653)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well it hasn't been good, I'll grant you that. I haven't met a single farmer round here that wanted to remain in the EU. Of course, they were promised before the referendum that they wouldn't be out of pocket once the EU subsidies stopped. I think we can confidently add that one to the roster of false promises, such as all that money for the NHS and a curb on immigration, that suckered people into voting leave.


10 Jan 17 - 08:00 AM (#3831656)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

You can't really own land, it's one of the greatest human misconceptions tied in with all that crap about having dominion over all living things. I reject it utterly.


10 Jan 17 - 08:26 AM (#3831661)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Stu does this mean you are quite happy to share your housing with any strays and waifs that may care to take up abode with you?


10 Jan 17 - 08:39 AM (#3831664)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Eskdalemuir"
I did not say the evicted farmers lived on Eskdalrmuir"
I gave the exact location - Sandyford - most of the land there is now the property of The Forestry Commission
When MacColl suddenly received royalties for First Time Ever, they bought a holiday home in the area - his song, Tenant Farmer, was composed after meeting a bunch of farmers at a Hogmanay Party they gave who had been evicted, as I said, anwd were working on assembly lines in local factories - that is what the song is about.
It seems you are back to your old tricks of denying (without evidence), whatever doesn't suit - it's ceased being amusing, now it's predictable enough to be boring
That is what happened to the land there, that was what Ewan and Peggy were told, and all your bullshit changes nothing.
"Somerset Levels"
My sister lives not far away and the local press announced that farmers who had farmed the Levels for generations had been forced out by the flooding and told nor to return
Decades of allowing the drains to silt up have made it impossible to control flooding


10 Jan 17 - 08:45 AM (#3831666)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I agree, Stu, but if we want people to love the ground on which their house and garden stands or which they farm they must be allowed unconditional stewardship of it, and that includes being allowed to pass it on. To make sure that no-one has more than their fair share, which would depend on many factors such as the quality of the land and its potential for providing a decent living, there could be a steeply-graduated land tax, starting at nil. And landlords should be taxed so heavily that they would want to offload their land or property quickly and cheaply. That would soon fix our insane housing market.

The Earl of Wilton's lackeys used to come round to our house for the ground rent when I was little. My dad used to save up pennies and ha'pennies and he'd throw the lot at the collector in the street. The idea that the house is yours but not the ground it stands on is an outrage of the highest order.


10 Jan 17 - 09:17 AM (#3831680)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

"Well it hasn't been good, I'll grant you that. I haven't met a single farmer round here that wanted to remain in the EU. Of course, they were promised before the referendum that they wouldn't be out of pocket once the EU subsidies stopped. I think we can confidently add that one to the roster of false promises, such as all that money for the NHS and a curb on immigration, that suckered people into voting leave"
   partly true, Ithink the vote in Wales which was crucial, was also to do with steel factories being closed because cameron allowed cheap chinese steel to be dumped, samoe on teeside, then there was the anti eu fishing vote, towns like lowestoft have been decimated


10 Jan 17 - 09:28 AM (#3831682)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

"Stu does this mean you are quite happy to share your housing with any strays and waifs that may care to take up abode with you?"

Huh? Why would I do that? What's opening up my house with everyone else got to do with owning land?

I live on this bit of land, have a a bit of paper to say I own it but in reality I'm just here for a while before I move on or keff it. What is it I own? Is it the bit of the earth's crust the grass grows on and my house is built on? That only goes down a few tens of kilometres, then we're into an environment where there is some movement of the rock that my bit of crust floats on. Or is my ownership based on geostationary co-ordinates, and I temporarily own the mantle flowing far down beneath my feet? But that can't be right.

But... the crust is moving around 10mm a year and at some point it will subduct beneath another plate and be destroyed... so can I have my money back if that happens?


10 Jan 17 - 10:29 AM (#3831689)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Stu I think you will find in the UK that you own precious little below the ground. In virtually all areas anything of worth is owned by the Crown Estates, the Church, or the government.


10 Jan 17 - 11:06 AM (#3831699)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Stu

Ha! I refuse to recognise their claim to any land.


10 Jan 17 - 11:40 AM (#3831700)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Iains

Well Good Luck with that if they want to come fracking or mining.


10 Jan 17 - 11:52 AM (#3831705)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

You can't own the land because you didn't make the land, but you do own the added value that you've given that land, as long as you have dominion over your fair share and no more. You may have done that by building a house on it, or at least buying the house that someone else built on it, by draining it, improving the soil and cultivating it. When you do things like that you're entitled to give it reasonable protection from ingress or damage, the key word being reasonable. Keeping people off vast tracts of moors and mountains so that ignorant men can shoot at stags or birds for "sport," or trying to keep me off beaches, doesn't come under "reasonable."


10 Jan 17 - 05:00 PM (#3831775)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

"Subject: RE: BS: Labour party discussion
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 10 Jan 17 - 04:48 AM

Don't respond Steve - that way lies madness

Because you can not challenge a word I have said, so better hide."
Keith I have met you in person and I have no desire to fall out with you, but I cannot accept your response when i challenged you about Farages xenophobia, I produced a copy and paste of a report of a speech Farage made in Grimsby.
your response was laughable, you resorted to trying to undermine the contents by asking if the student   was out of their teens.
Throughout this thread I have stated that not everyone who voted to leave was a racist but it is clear that Farage has used the race issue to win votes,
your comment "was the student out of his teens" insults those people who are 18 or 19 who are considered by the government old enough and responsible enough to vote legally.
when someone does respond to you politely, and you are clearly caught out you still will not admit you are wrong, so what is the point of anyone responding to you.
THE STUDENT IN QUESTION WAS IN HIS FINAL YEAR OF A BA HONS DEGREE, that means he is considered old enough and responsible enough top vote.14 March 2016       · by European Student Think Tank       · in ambassadors, articles and blogs, EU Foreign Policy, EU Policy Process, Eurocrisis, European Integration, Geen categorie, ISIS, Migration, Religion.       ·
By Matt Evans, British EST Ambassador. Matt is a final year BA (hons) History and Politics student at the University of East Anglia (UEA) in Norwich, UK.

16486626570_7f070e3bc4_o

The upcoming June referendum on whether Britain should remain a member of the European Union has once again increased the media's interest in the UK Independence Party, commonly known as UKIP. UKIP, formed in 1993 as a response to increasing European integration, are generally viewed as to the right on the political spectrum of the governing Conservative Party, advocating British withdrawal from the European Union and an end to what they view as "uncontrolled immigration".[1] Under the leadership of the charismatic but divisive Nigel Farage, the party has enjoyed recent electoral success, gaining the most seats and votes in the 2014 European Parliament election, marking the first time since 1910 that a party other than Labour and the Conservatives won the largest number of seats in a national election.[2] This article looks at a speech delivered by leader Farage when campaigning for UKIP in the 2015 UK General Election.

            As a part of the general election campaign the infamous Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, went to Grimsby Town Hall and urged the residents of Grimsby to vote for Victoria Ayling, a local councillor, as their next Member of Parliament[3]. This speech exemplifies a large part of Great Britain's scepticism towards the European Union. Given the situation as it was the general election and Farage was holding a speech in a town known for its fishing, it can be argued that he attempted to ignite a nostalgic and nationalist fire in Grimsby. He begins his speech by stating: "Grimsby used to be a great place"[4]. Already here, Farage is presenting a problem in the United Kingdom namely its lack of sovereignty. It can be argued that this problem is the overarching theme on Farage's agenda since, in his view, it is the root for the sinking fishing industry in Grimsby because of the Common Fisheries Policy, Great Britain's declining living conditions due to the Open Door Policy and the British debt due to the European Union membership.

            Farage gives a historical background of why Great Britain's sovereignty has declined according to his own view, which gives his audience an overview and general knowledge of the problem that Great Britain is currently in. Moreover, it is revealing that Farage had an understanding for his audience. This can be seen, for example, by his focus on the famous fishing industry in Grimsby which illustrates that the speech had a particular audience but also his aggressive quote that "Tony Blair can go to hell"[5] which was received by applause of the audience. He even says sarcastically that he misread the audience when he first mentions Tony Blair, indicating that he knows the audience.

First of all, by igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in the audience, he manages to use the argumentative appeal of pathos. This can be tied into Aristotle's notion of emotions since Farage sparks dissatisfaction or even anger in the audience where Aristotle argues that if an item has importance, people will eventually get angry[6]. In this case, Farage is able to present a broken Great Britain and acknowledge it, which the residents of Grimsby are attached to. This indicates that the residents of Grimsby find an importance in Great Britain. Farage is able to direct that frustration and anger, and pinpoint the lack of sovereignty as the fundamental problem. This use of pathos can be considered rather successful since Farage's aim is convince the residents of Grimsby to vote for Ayling because belief and action are intertwined, according to Aristotle[7], and thus by making that certain belief a constituent part of emotion, Farage is able to gain more votes for UKIP.

            Another argumentative appeal is ethos, which he is able to portray through his view of Europe. By claiming that he is not against Europe as countries and people and that he, in fact, likes Europe, Farage is able to illustrate to the public that he is a concerned man of Great Britain rather than a fearful or discriminating man of Europe. In addition, he also presents himself as a moral character by telling the audience that the other politicians have been abusing him due to UKIP's "sensible" policies as he puts it[8].

            The last argumentative appeal is logos where Farage appeals to the rationality of the voters in Grimsby. This is illustrated when he makes the case that Great Britain should become like Norway and Iceland who have a booming fishing industry and are not a part of the European Union. Also, by giving a historical background of Great Britain's ties with the European Union, he also appeals to the rationality of the audience since they see a chronological timeline of the developing problem in Great Britain.

Farage uses contradictions in order to portray his policies as appealing. This can be exemplified by his view that controlling the borders of the United Kingdom "immigration once again becomes a positive in our country and not a negative"[9]. By using juxtapositions, Farage is able to make the audience differentiate between UKIP and the other parties, making UKIP more appealing to voters. It is also seen that Farage uses examples as inductions such as his argument for an increase in the defence budget that he compares to house insurance and the comparison that British debt is like maxing out a credit card. At the end of the speech, Farage states that he doesn't want to sell out nor have a ministerial car but rather wants to "drive the agenda of British politics the next five years"[10]. Here, an odd metaphor is applied in order to contrast what politicians want compared to what Farage want to do if elected but since it is the first metaphor that Farage uses in the speech, it also emphasises his goal of influencing British politics.

The hostility towards the European Union that Farage represents sums up the split in Great Britain. The latest opinion poll by Comres suggests that 49% of Britons want to remain in the EU whereas 41% wants to leave[11]. By analysing a speech by one of the leading figures of the British euroscepticism, we can clearly see that the charismatic Farage is able to adapt his rhetoric to different situations and the issues he touches upon are strong entities of British nationalism. Whether you agree with him or not, "[R]hetoric proves crucial when it comes to invoking discourses in the audience conducive to the claim made by the representative, and downplaying competing discourses"[12] and this is fundamental to the democratic ideals that Great Britain but also the European Union represent. Thus, it is important to acknowledge euroscepticism as a part of British political discourse since it illustrates the antagonism of views in British society.

All in all, Farage focuses on the particular audience by his examples and comparisons that are specific to the people in Grimsby, which helps igniting the nostalgic and nationalistic fire in Grimsby. Hence, the speech can be considered to be successful since it convinces the audience that the sole problem of British politics is its lack of sovereignty and UKIP can provide the solution to make Grimsby a thriving fishing town again.

[1] UKIP Manifesto 2015 "Immigration" p.10


10 Jan 17 - 07:07 PM (#3831789)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

Good Soldier:
An interesting copy/paste, but the original author give no valid quotes to back up what he is saying. He just gives his opinion of the way Nigel Farage was campaigning against Europe.
To quote one of our better authors: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing


11 Jan 17 - 03:26 AM (#3831825)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

"The Earl of Wilton's lackeys used to come round to our house for the ground rent when I was little. My dad used to save up pennies and ha'pennies and he'd throw the lot at the collector in the street."

Now if that was the truculent, boorish, ungracious and ill-mannered example you were set as a child it explains a great deal about you. That on reflection you boast about it and admire it even more. Having said that, the ground rent you refer to could not have been very much, or those you sneeringly refer to as "Lackeys" {What a good little "socialist" you are at heart} must have been of a much kinder and forgiving a disposition as there are limits defined in law as to how much you can legally pay for in coin. Had they adopted a harder line, your family could have been evicted for failure to pay ground rent and you might have been able to witness your father scrabbling about in the gutter picking up his loose change.


11 Jan 17 - 03:47 AM (#3831829)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Now if that was the truculent, boorish, ungracious and ill-mannered example you were set as a child it explains a great deal about you."
And your cap-doffing approach to any criticism of the State,the monarchy and 'the great and the good' explains a great deal about you - what a good little extremist you are at heart.
Being evicted for being disrespectful to the representatives of the local landowners pretty well sums up the system you appear to look back on with fondness.
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 04:29 AM (#3831835)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Jim Carroll - 11 Jan 17 - 03:47 AM

A couple of points Jim:

1: "your cap-doffing approach to any criticism of the State, the monarchy and 'the great and the good' explains a great deal about you - what a good little extremist you are at heart."

Surely Jim if as you claim I am a defender of all of those things (Which oddly enough I am not, although I do react to incorrect, ill-informed and outrageous criticism of anything - which is the main reason you and I come into conflict) then how would that make me "an extremist"? I would have thought that it would more accurately have made me more open to accusations of me being a conformist. No matter though as anyone who disagrees with you on anything is immediately accused of every "....ism" in the book, or being every type of "....ist" you could imagine.

2: "Being evicted for being disrespectful to the representatives of the local landowners pretty well sums up the system you appear to look back on with fondness."

Demonstrating your lack of comprehension and inability to read again Jim? Missed the point entirely, yet again - have another read:

"there are limits defined in law as to how much you can legally pay for {something} in coin. Had they adopted a harder line, your family could have been evicted for failure to pay ground rent"

So nothing to do with being disrespectful at all. Currently, going strictly by the rules, the maximum you can pay for something using 1p or 2p coins is 20p{According to the Coinage Act of 1971}. The rest goes something like this:

5p - for any amount not exceeding £5
10p - for any amount not exceeding £5
20p - for any amount not exceeding £10
50p - for any amount not exceeding £10
£1 - for any amount
£2 - for any amount

As far as notes go:

Bank of England notes are not legal tender in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes are not legal tender in England and Wales.

Prior to 1971 there were similar limits on the maximum number of coins of various denominations that could be used in any transaction and that Mr. Carroll would have been Shaw Snr's transgression NOT disrespect.


11 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM (#3831836)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

The Ukip leader has been criticised by members from all the other main UK political parties this weekend after he said in a car-crash interview on LBC Radio that he would feel "uncomfortable" if a Romanian family moved in next door to him. THAT IS RACIST.
The copy paste gives facts, Farage said Grimsby used to be a great place, statements like Grimsby used to be a great place are reactionary, and appeal not to just dissatisfied fishermen but to racists, because of his views on immigration, if he said Grimsby used to be a great place before the fishing industry was destroyed, that would be acceptable.
But he attempts to use nostalgic and nationalistic rhetoric which at the same time appeals to racists as does his views on immigration, and the fact he stated previously about being uncomfortable about Romanians.


11 Jan 17 - 04:33 AM (#3831838)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

GSS, the report on the Grimsby speech by the undergraduate student contains no examples of racism or xenophobia.

If I have missed something, please highlight it.

Here is the concluding sentence,

"Hence, the speech can be considered to be successful since it convinces the audience that the sole problem of British politics is its lack of sovereignty and UKIP can provide the solution to make Grimsby a thriving fishing town again."

Perfectly legitimate.

From his opening paragraph,
" It can be argued that this problem is the overarching theme on Farage's agenda since, in his view, it is the root for the sinking fishing industry in Grimsby because of the Common Fisheries Policy, Great Britain's declining living conditions due to the Open Door Policy and the British debt due to the European Union membership."

Reasonable and legitimate non-racist arguments.

Near the end.
" This can be exemplified by his view that controlling the borders of the United Kingdom "immigration once again becomes a positive in our country and not a negative"[9].

So we see he is not anti-immigration, just concerned that the level is too high. That is the view of all the main parties.

Show me where the racism and xenophobia are reported Dick.


11 Jan 17 - 04:39 AM (#3831840)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

The Romanian neighbours thing,
Guardian,
"He told BBC News: "I regret the fact that I was completely tired out and I didn't use the form of words in response that I would have liked to have used.
"I should have just hit back immediately and said: 'Look, understand there is a real problem here – you can't deny it – too much criminality from these gangs has come to London.'"
In an advertisement in the Daily Telegraph taking the form of an open letter from Farage, the Ukip leader said: "Let me be clear – Ukip is not a racist party, and our immigration policy, far from being racist, aims to end discrimination against non-Europeans.
"The vast majority of Romanians who have come to the UK wish to better their lives and would make good neighbours.

"But there is a real problem, an unpalatable truth that our political class would rather not discuss. Since the welcome fall of communism and the awful dictator Ceausescu, Romania has struggled to complete a full transition into a western democracy."
There was discrimination against the Roma minority and a "huge problem" with the growth of criminal gangs, he said.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/19/nigel-farage-next-door-romanians-ukip


11 Jan 17 - 04:51 AM (#3831842)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

the Ukip leader said: "Let me be clear – Ukip is not a racist party

Ah, OK. It must be true then...

Sorry, Keith. The voices must have been saying things to me again.

DtG


11 Jan 17 - 05:18 AM (#3831845)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well isn't it amazing that Teribus can turn a discussion about the lack of principle and fairness involved in the matter of land ownership into a squabble about the maximum you're allowed to pay in 2 pence pieces. I've told you before, old boy, try to not post before you've had your morning coffee. And you've really done it this time. No-one gets away with being rude about my dad. He's only 93 and I've decided to set him on you. If you have boots, prepare to quake in them now.


11 Jan 17 - 05:29 AM (#3831849)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"principle and fairness involved in the matter of land ownership into a squabble about the maximum you're allowed to pay in 2 pence pieces."
Old usual smoke and mirrors Steve - not the slightest bit amazing, just par for the course
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 05:33 AM (#3831853)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Only to be expected, Jim. Dash it - forgot to ask Teribus for his postcode so that my dad can set his satnav...


11 Jan 17 - 05:45 AM (#3831857)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
the Ukip leader said: "Let me be clear – Ukip is not a racist party
Ah, OK. It must be true then...


No. His opinion, like yours, counts for nothing if not supported by evidence.
Perhaps Farage is a racist, but no conclusive evidence for such a serious accusation has yet been found by any of you.

If UKIP itself is racist, then racism would be in its manifesto.
I failed to find any. How about you?


Sorry, Keith. The voices must have been saying things to me again.


About what Dave?


11 Jan 17 - 05:50 AM (#3831859)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

You tell me, Keith. It was you who first said it was the voices that told me! Not forgotten already have you? I won't :-)

DtG


11 Jan 17 - 06:05 AM (#3831862)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I must give you full credit for this stroke of genius though, Keith

If UKIP itself is racist, then racism would be in its manifesto.

I should have thought of it myself first.

The Labour party cannot be antisemitic. It is not in it's manifesto.
The Monster Raving Loony Party cannot be taking the piss. In is not in their manifesto.
Football coaches cannot be paedopholes. It is not their contract.

The possibilities are endless! :-)

DtG


11 Jan 17 - 06:10 AM (#3831864)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Try to not be silly, Keith. What a vote-winner it would surely be if a political party stated that "we are racists" in its manifesto! I mean, how long have you been around? Don't you know how these things are done? We won't know if someone's racist unless they tell us themselves that they are?

"Nige, are you a racist or are you not?"

"Of course not!"

"Oh, that's all right then! Pint?"


11 Jan 17 - 06:16 AM (#3831866)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well done, Dave. You beat me to it.

Two laughing stocks in the same thread within an hour or two. Doubt whether Teribus or Keith will give up any time soon though. Maybe we should!

By the way, Dave, I watched that thing on the telly last night about getting Barnsley dancing and noticed that they're doing Skipton next week. Are you in it by any chance, or just not going to admit it? 😜


11 Jan 17 - 06:25 AM (#3831871)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ooooh - No. Didn't see it. We do have an annual clog fest in Skipton already so maybe dancing is endemic in this neck of the woods. I'll keep my eye open for it. It is on the BBCs manifesto?

:D tG


11 Jan 17 - 06:28 AM (#3831872)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Don't they disguise themselves in Yorkshire so that no-one will know who isn't putting money in the collecting tins?


11 Jan 17 - 06:33 AM (#3831874)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Aye 'appen :-)


11 Jan 17 - 06:45 AM (#3831876)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,

The Labour party cannot be antisemitic. It is not in it's manifesto.


Exactly true. It has a serious problem with some of its members, but the party itself can not be said to be anti-Semitic and no-one has suggested it is.

A footballer's contract is different. A manifesto sets out the aims and views of the Party.

Steve,
Keith. What a vote-winner it would surely be if a political party stated that "we are racists" in its manifesto!

It would not be. British people would shun it, but UKIP is very popular.
Parties set out their beliefs and aims in their manifesto.
If there is nothing racist in it, how do you know they are racist Steve?
Presumably not voices telling you, so where does your belief come from?
If it is based on no actual facts, it is just prejudice against holders of different views to your own.


11 Jan 17 - 06:46 AM (#3831877)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"putting money in the collecting tins?"
Collecting tins in Yorkshire - now there's a waste of time!!
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 06:51 AM (#3831879)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

If it is based on no actual facts, it is just prejudice against holders of different views to your own.

And here we come full circle again. The facts have been given. You refuse to accept them. No point in continuing.

DtG


11 Jan 17 - 06:53 AM (#3831880)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

You're a Christian, Keith. By their fruits shall we know them. And don't start all that again, please. It's too boring for words. Nigel stood proudly in front of a racist poster too similar for comfort to a Nazi one. That'll do me. Low-hanging fruit if ever there was any.


11 Jan 17 - 07:49 AM (#3831886)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"And here we come full circle again."
And if you let it, it will just go round in ever-decreasing circles until it disappears, that's how this guy works - you give him facts, he pretends you haven't
He really doesn't have anything sensible to say on anything
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 08:41 AM (#3831891)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

It's just been announced that evidence has arisen suggesting "improper links between Donald Trump and Russia" and that he may have been subject to blackmail by them, regarding "unusual sexual practices", when he was involved in a beauty contest there (hope for Ake's sake that this didn't involve homosexuality!!)   
Wonder what Theresa's message will be to him when she meets him in the Spring; "C'mon big boy, let's see what you've got" maybe!!
Who was it said we get the leaders we deserve!!
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 08:59 AM (#3831895)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

I am supposed to be concerned or take any serious notice of jibes from a couple of so-called "socialists" who believe in "pecking orders" and who sneeringly refer to those going about their business and working for a living as "lackeys" - you simply just couldn't make it up.


11 Jan 17 - 09:11 AM (#3831899)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

"putting money in the collecting tins?"
Collecting tins in Yorkshire - now there's a waste of time!!
Jim Carroll


If Yorkshiremen were a distinct race that would be overt racism. As it is it's a slur against the people of Yorkshire.


This just shows how easy it is to step across that line!


11 Jan 17 - 09:13 AM (#3831900)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"pecking orders"
It was a joke when I said it - you've confirmed it to be not too far from the mark
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 09:14 AM (#3831902)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

If you work for a parasite and go round from door to door collecting money that should never be collected, lackey is actually a fairly kind word to describe you. "I'm just following orders..." Ring a bell?


11 Jan 17 - 10:23 AM (#3831912)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Take it that when your Dad moved in he knew full well what had to be paid and to whom? Your almost gleeful description of his graceless and boorish behaviour demeans no-one but him. In your case I see that the apple did not fall far from the tree. Tell me is it a default position for former union activists when faced with any opposition or criticism to threaten to set people onto your perceived opponent?

"Pecking orders", "Lackeys", threats and demands to get people banned from posting - my, my what belief in equality and freedom of speech.


11 Jan 17 - 10:47 AM (#3831917)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
The facts have been given.

No fact has been given that could remotely justify those accusations.
If that is not true, repeat one now.

Prove me wrong.
Put up such a fact now and you will shut me up for good.
What is stopping you?
Bring it on.

Put it up and show me up.
If you can't, it will prove that you have failed miserably and ignominiously to make a case.

Steve,
Nigel stood proudly in front of a racist poster too similar for comfort to a Nazi one.

It was a current news image, and similar could be seen in all the media at that time.
Whatever you might think it was "similar too" you have failed utterly to show that it was anything but a legitimate highlighting of the EU's incompetence on the migration crisis.


11 Jan 17 - 10:59 AM (#3831920)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

""Pecking orders""
As I said a joke, but one I would have made much earlier and more vehemently if I had known how deeply it would sting.
As far as getting people banned - I asked a forum fairy to do something about a troll who was spitting vitriolic venom at those who disagreed with him - it worked a charm, as did my reproducing your ongoing insulting and abusive posts aimed at anybody who disagree with you.
Nice to know that this is the behaviour that should be permissable on a debate forum though
What did you just say to Steve "graceless and boorish behaviour demeans no-one but him."
"Know thyself", as Polonious was occasionally heard to remark.
Jim Carroll


11 Jan 17 - 11:05 AM (#3831921)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I have repeated them over and over again. You just refuse to accept it.

I'll try once again.

Saying he would be uncomfortable living next to Romanians
Using a poster of immigrants in the same way Nazi Germany portrayed Jews
Saying he would axe much of race discrimination law

There are three that I know you will say are not racist at all. Other people think differently. Different moralities. Different language. Different planet.

DtG


11 Jan 17 - 01:33 PM (#3831944)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Teribus, PLEASE tell me that you didn't really believe I was going to set my 93-year-old dad on you.


Bwahahahahaha!


11 Jan 17 - 02:29 PM (#3831952)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Of course I didn't Shaw - you never ever mean a single word you ever post - judging by the codswallop you post if you ever actually did believe it you'd have been sectioned years ago.

Joke Carroll?? The first time you mentioned it was in one of your spittle-flecked rants where you expressed your astonishment that anyone would dare to challenge the veracity of your "Made-Up-Shit" and were attempting to "put me in my place" - needless to say you failed.

So far it would appear that only one of our leftie "usual suspects" is even interested in giving the new Conservative Leader and Prime Minister a chance and that for all the posts on this thread no-one has managed to provide any evidence that either UKIP, as a political Party, or Nigel Farage as it's former leader and UK MEP is racist. It would also appear that Labour is the Party that is totally clueless on what to do next.


11 Jan 17 - 07:03 PM (#3831982)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Teribus, I post on Mudcat about all manner of things, Morris, big trees, Planxty, Christy, Woody Guthrie, Spanish Civil War songs, Irish music, the joke thread, geology, the weather, garden birds, organic gardening, life in Cornwall, taking the piss out of Yorkshiremen, recipes, classical music, astronomy, wild flowers, pop music, playing the harmonica and, well, I forget. I suppose it all means that "I never ever mean a single word I ever post - judging by the codswallop I post if I ever actually did believe it I'd have been sectioned years ago." Etcetera. The thing is, Teribus, and I hate to use that grossly-overused word "ironic," but it's ironic you can even dream of castigating anyone else for being boorish then post that incredibly, well, BOORISH post. You seem to have that old-man bitter thing about never seeing the light side of anything and serially getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. So I've changed my mind. I'm setting my 93-year-old dad on you after all. Send me your postcode, please.

And, by the way, you yourself don't really do much above the line, do you? Not that you have to, of course. Not a sackable offence. Just thought I'd mention it.


12 Jan 17 - 01:53 AM (#3832007)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Since when has stating plain unvarnished fact been considered boorish Shaw? As to posting history your philosophy would appear to be "Never mind the quality feel the width". I rarely post above the line as I rarely see the need for me to do so, oddly enough as far as the music side of things go I find myself in agreement and in accord with practically everything Jim Carroll says about the Folk Music of the British Isles. Below the line what prompts me to post is behaviour such as yours on certain subjects that indicate to me that you are an intolerant, totally biased, bully and I take great pleasure in knocking down your rather clichéd and ill-informed arguments.


12 Jan 17 - 03:53 AM (#3832012)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

no-one has managed to provide any evidence that either UKIP, as a political Party, or Nigel Farage as it's former leader and UK MEP is racist.

Not you as well, Teribus! There has been plenty of evidence of racism from both. The issue is that neither you nor Keith seem to see it as racist while many others do. We do therefore have an impasse and there really is no point continuing.

DtG


12 Jan 17 - 04:20 AM (#3832014)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, of your 3 facts,
Saying he would be uncomfortable living next to Romanians
Using a poster of immigrants in the same way Nazi Germany portrayed Jews
Saying he would axe much of race discrimination law



The first was only introduced in the last couple of days. Farage gave entirely rational and non-racist reasons for it which you all ignore, obviously.

The third is entirely new! Please tell us about it.

The second is the poster. UKIP is first and foremost an anti-EU Party.
At that time the greatest EU crisis was the turmoil on the borders caused by its incompetent handling of the migrant crisis.
That is the context that you ignore and pretend did not exist.
In that context the poster is a perfectly reasonable way to highlight the problem and just used an off the shelf news image such as we were seeing every day at the time.

Your outrage is purely manufactured.
You have acknowledged that the views, values and aims of UKIP as laid out in its manifesto contains no racism, so;

1. In what sense is it racist?
2. How can you tell?


12 Jan 17 - 05:02 AM (#3832019)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Can we not allow this topic to be once again driven into oblivion?
It's bad enough with Keith doing his Iwo Jima act and raising the Flag for Farage ("who he does nor support"!!!) with his circular arguments.
Now we're back to Teribus strutting his stuff.
For crying out loud, let's move on - the world's full of more important eejits to deal with without growing our own
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 07:27 AM (#3832033)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

If Theresa May ever posted to threads like this she'd be firmly in the Keith/Teribus axis' camp. Deny, deny, deny. She denied that the immigration promise had been a promise when she was Home Secretary once the government had failed to keep it by approximately tenfold. She denied the fiasco over border controls. Now she's denying the crisis in the NHS. We haven't even had a flu outbreak this winter - God help us if we do get one. Privatisation driven by ideology, under-investment, lack of training of doctors and nurses, staggering short-sightedness, GP services a shambles, waiting times rocketing, bed-blocking due to lack of decent care services, thousands of patients waiting for hours or days on trolleys. They inherited an NHS in good nick in 2010. Now it's going down the pan, fast. Yesterday they were blaming GPs for not working every hour God sends. You couldn't make it up. Except that they do.


12 Jan 17 - 07:41 AM (#3832037)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

The problems in the NHS lie in more than the funding issue....much deeper than that, the problems lie within society itself and have become to large for any government to deal with.

By far the largest problem is the desire bleed the system, it is practiced by drugs companies, GPs, consultants, management on all levels......and yes I am sorry to say the public, especially through the social work depts., which have become a huge industry.


12 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM (#3832040)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"and yes I am sorry to say the public"
Yeah - isn't it disgusting that poor people get sick?
Lumping the public in with all the rest is as sick as it gets
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 08:16 AM (#3832043)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Ake
It might help to avoid slanging matches if you could explain how patients are to blame for helping wreck the health service (with linked evidence, of course)
I assume your reference to "social work departments" means those groups working with the most needy - total waste of time, of course!!
Interesting that your comments should come at exactly the same time as your friend Trump's supporters are beginning to dismantle affordable medicine in America without an alternative - a "pay or die" policy.
They have also announced that the wall between the U.S and Mexico is to be started as soon as possible - maybe Britain might pick up some tips there?
A real Brave New ******* World
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM (#3832045)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Jim, I'm sorry to spoil your illusion, but the "public" now have rights and a large number of them make full use of these rights to get as much as they can.

There are dozens of examples that I could quote, as a friend works in the "care industry"

One disabled person a few months ago received full social funding to erect a substantial access ramp to his front door. The cost was over £10,000, but on completion of the work the "customer" complained that the ramping must be continued right round the house to aloe separate access to the back door.....he threatened action on alleged discrimination when the funding was refused....and almost immediately the ramp was extended at a further cost of £25,000.

The cost to the taxpayer of care for the elderly is colossal...due in no small part to the lack of any sort of responsibility by family members.....let the social take care of it.


12 Jan 17 - 08:34 AM (#3832047)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve,
Deny, deny, deny.

I have not denied anything!
I just ask you to justify your claims against UKIP, but you can't.

Dave,
Saying he (Farage) would axe much of race discrimination law

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about that, so where did you get it from Dave?
It is not true, so did you make it up or imagine it?

None of you have been able to provide any facts to support your accusations of racism.
If you did I would join you in condemnation.

The only conclusion it is that you are just prejudiced against any organisation with views that differ from yours, but lacking any arguments you resort to smear and slander.


12 Jan 17 - 10:09 AM (#3832085)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, I'm sorry to spoil your illusion, but the "public" now have rights and a large number of them make full use of these rights to get as much as they can."
I asked for evidence - not opinion
Can you link us to something that confirms this?
"Dozens of examples" - Jesus that is serious
How many people use the NHS exactly
You are holding Trump's banner very firmly in your sweaty little hands
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 10:29 AM (#3832089)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Teribus

Keith A, Akenaton, you obviously forget that what is required as proof and substantiation to back any case either of you put forward is completely different to what is required from the likes of Steve Shaw, Jim Carroll, DtG and the rest of the "usual suspects", should any ever be required at all {Not that they ever feel as though they have to substantiate any claim they make}. In the case of Jim Carroll he does not have the foggiest notion what actually does constitute "evidence" and relies solely on quoting "opinions" that match his own and calling it "fact".


12 Jan 17 - 10:47 AM (#3832091)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

I put up researched evidence from recognised sources - the only quesionable feature of it is it bursts your unqualified and unbacked up opinions
The few times you ever link to anything have proved utter disasters, which presumably why you never do
Ake's latest offering is Tory Chinese whisper information straight from the sewer press -
I've been reading about predatory, lazy, stupid workers all my life from that particular source
"Dozens of examples" - you couldn't make it up!!
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 11:18 AM (#3832102)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

The third is entirely new! Please tell us about it.

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about that, so where did you get it from Dave?
It is not true, so did you make it up or imagine it?


There you go again, Keith. Suggesting I have some sort of mental illness. Maybe you need to adjust your medication?

Nigel Farage would axe 'much of' race discrimination law

Now, will you explain why you think I am mentally ill and why you keep suggesting it on here? Not that I expect anything like a reasonable answer from you...

DtG


12 Jan 17 - 11:29 AM (#3832105)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Jan 17 - 10:47 AM
I put up researched evidence from recognised sources -

"Recognised sources". I suppose that includes the Daily Telegraph, The BBC, The Daily Mail, The Sun & Al-jazeera.
All recognised sources. But I'm sure there would be arguments about which are "reliable sources". Perhaps using reliable sources might be a better aim.


12 Jan 17 - 11:48 AM (#3832108)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Not sute what you are saying Nigel (you tend not to explain yourself)
I neber quote from Al-jazeera as the people I argue with seem to believe that Arabs aren't entitled to an opinion.
I very seldom use The sun (except when I am taken short and there's no toilet paper) - occasionally it's useful as when it takes a pop at the establishment, you can take it as read that it wouldn't do so if it were avoidable- likewise the Mail.
Both are right-wing tabloid rags.
The Telegraph is handy as it is a serious paper when you take into consideration where it is coming from.
I scan all the press, either for information or to find out which way the wind blows
These people offer nothing but their own opinions and I know which way the wind blows with them
What on earth is your point?
I didn't get an answer to whether you believed I think Jews to be mentally deficient - neither a yes or no, certainly not a retraction.
I suppose we have to learn to live with hit-and-run debate
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 12:54 PM (#3832133)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
I put up researched evidence from recognised sources

Remind us what those recognised sources were, with the evidence of their research, if you are not lying again Jim.

The few times you ever link to anything have proved utter disasters, which presumably why you never do

Remind us of such a disaster, if you are not lying again Jim.
Remember, we made no claims or accusations, so have nothing to defend.

You all made lots but can not defend any.


12 Jan 17 - 01:08 PM (#3832134)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
You claimed that Farage said,
he would axe much of race discrimination law

He never did.
According to your link he was accused only of saying, "UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work" which is not "much of race discrimination law."
He did not even say that either.

From your link,
"Mr Farage told the BBC his remarks, recorded last autumn, had been "wilfully misinterpreted", saying he was talking about nationality not race.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4's Today Programme he said he was making the point that employers should be able to discriminate in favour of British workers.
"I didn't mention race at all. There was no part of that interview which I ever said it at all.
"What I said was that I do believe there should be a presumption for British employers in favour of them employing British people as opposed to somebody from Poland. That is exactly what I said," he added"

"British Jobs for British workers."
That was the last Labour Prime Minister, not Farage.
Either they are both racists or neither are.
Which is it Dave?

Either way your original claim was false according to your own link.


12 Jan 17 - 01:38 PM (#3832136)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, Corbyn spoke recently of banning exclusive advertising of jobs abroad, so he also believes, " there should be a presumption for British employers in favour of them employing British people as opposed to somebody from Poland."

So, are they all racists Dave, or are your accusations of racism just baseless bollocks?


12 Jan 17 - 02:52 PM (#3832147)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"You claimed that Farage said,
he would axe much of race discrimination law
He never did."
Ukip would scrap laws designed to stop racial discrimination in the workplace, leader Nigel Farage has said.
The Ukip leader said existing laws were out of date and that British society had moved on, making the discrimination laws redundant.
Farage called it "ludicrous" that employers could not favour a British national for a role over a foreigner.
Speaking in a Channel 4 documentary to be broadcast next week, Farage said: "I think the employer should be much freer to make decisions on who she or he employs.
"I think the situation that we now have, where an employer is not allowed to choose between a British-born person and somebody from Poland, is a ludicrous state of affairs.

"I would argue that the law does need changing, and that if an employer wishes to choose, or you can use the word 'discriminate' if you want to, but wishes to choose to employ a British-born person, they should be allowed to do so."
Critics of Farage's idea said scrapping racial laws in the workplace would set Britain back decades.
Responding to the comments, Downing Street suggested Farage was "wrong and desperate for attention", while Labour MP and potential London mayoral candidate Sadiq Khan said: "When my parents moved to London they frequently saw signs saying 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish'.
"What UKIP is suggesting would take us back to those days."
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/nigel-farage-ukip-would-axe-workplace-race-discrimination-laws-1491569

"That was the last Labour Prime Minister, not Farage."
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/513546/Nigel-Farage-British-businesses-put-UK-workers-first
Jim Carroll


12 Jan 17 - 05:30 PM (#3832171)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Nitpicking to the extreme once again, Keith. But aside from that, you have never even attempted to explain why you accuse me of making things up. Why is that? Why do you say I hear voices? Why do you intimate that I have some sort of mental illness? It is not something that friends do is it and I thought you one said you was a friend of mine :-(

DtG


13 Jan 17 - 04:41 AM (#3832250)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
You claimed that Farage said he would "axe much of race discrimination law" and you were not telling the truth.

The truth is he was only discussing employment law.
Like any country, and like Gordon Brown and Corbyn, he thinks that British nationals (all races) should be given preference over non-British nationals.

That is not racist and not "nitpicking" Dave.
There can be no dispute over what he said because he said it on camera to Ch.4.

You all avoided these questions;
If UKIP's aims and views as laid out in its manifesto contains no racism, in what sense can it be said to be racist?
Why do you all say it is?
Is it not just political rivals attempting to smear because they have nothing else to say?

UKIP points out that current immigration policy is racist because it discriminates against non-Europeans.
They propose a colour blind level playing field for all countries and races.

Dave, when you state things that are not true, I am entitled to ask where they came from.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. Did you?


13 Jan 17 - 04:45 AM (#3832254)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

There seems little point in talking to someone who has made up his (what passes for a) mind and refuses to respond to evidence
For crying out loud, leave him to wallow in his own swill
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 04:56 AM (#3832257)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

But I will respond to evidence if and when it appears Jim.
Have you found some?
Put it up and I will have to respond.


13 Jan 17 - 05:26 AM (#3832266)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Haven't you disgraced yourself enough with lying about your own racism without lying about Ukip's
For christ sake peope;l - do not feed this troll - he's doing as much damage to himself as he is to the thread
Have a bit of pity
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 05:44 AM (#3832272)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Dave,
You claimed that Farage said he would "axe much of race discrimination law" and you were not telling the truth.


EXACT quote from the BBC news article, cut and paste. Nothing altered

Nigel Farage would axe 'much of' race discrimination law

UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said.


So, Keith, in what way was I not telling the truth? Or are you saying that the BBC was not telling the truth as well?

As to the other point -


Dave, when you state things that are not true, I am entitled to ask where they came from.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. Did you?


Well, here are two examples of you doing exactly what you just said you have not done -

"How are you sure Dave? Voices?"

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about that, so where did you get it from Dave?
It is not true, so did you make it up or imagine it?


Why do you say something and then deny you said it, Keith, when it is plain for all to see. You are either very forgetful or spectacularly dishonest.

DtG


13 Jan 17 - 06:02 AM (#3832278)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Nigel Parsons

Not sute what you are saying Nigel (you tend not to explain yourself)
My comments should have needed no further explanation. I was making the point that you used the term 'recognised sources'. I made the point that just being 'recognised' does not necessarily mean that the source is reliable. As you seem to point out in the next few paragraphs.
I neber quote from Al-jazeera as the people I argue with seem to believe that Arabs aren't entitled to an opinion.
I very seldom use The sun (except when I am taken short and there's no toilet paper) - occasionally it's useful as when it takes a pop at the establishment, you can take it as read that it wouldn't do so if it were avoidable- likewise the Mail.
Both are right-wing tabloid rags.
The Telegraph is handy as it is a serious paper when you take into consideration where it is coming from.
I scan all the press, either for information or to find out which way the wind blows
These people offer nothing but their own opinions and I know which way the wind blows with them
What on earth is your point?
I didn't get an answer to whether you believed I think Jews to be mentally deficient - neither a yes or no, certainly not a retraction.
I didn't say that you believed Jews to be mentally deficient (although it is possible that you read it that way). I asked whether you believed that, on the basis that you had stated that Jews were forced to wear the black triangle (a sign of mental deficiency). As I hadn't made a statement about the matter, there would be no need for a retraction.
I suppose we have to learn to live with hit-and-run debate
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 06:40 AM (#3832289)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I've told you,Dave - Keith's memory is not only highly selective but also doesn't extend beyond the post before last. Hence the constant repetitions...

Don't mention Wheatcroft. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...(to misquote Basil Fawlty)


13 Jan 17 - 07:04 AM (#3832296)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

" 'recognised sources'."
Only because Keith and others refuses to recognise those he doesn't agree with - left ones were specified.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll use any source, but with circumspection when it comes opinion rather than established fact
I have quoted from the Telegrapg and the Mail regularly - I think I have used the Sun once, to point out to one of our number that even this right-wing bumwipe had dismissed the forcing of refugees to wear identification insignia while he was (and still is) supporting it.
" I asked whether you believed that,"
Which implied that I might do - I don't, and I would have thought my opinions on this were well enough known.
I've got a little tired of seeing critics of Israel being accused of "antisemitism" by by people whose actions make them guilty of same.
Anyway - conversation over now we have cleared the air - I hope
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 09:11 AM (#3832319)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question.

In the two quotes you gave, I make no claim or assertion.
I just asked the question.

So, Keith, in what way was I not telling the truth?

You claimed that Farage, "would axe much of race discrimination law."

Exact BBC quote you just gave, "Nigel Farage would axe 'much of' race discrimination law."

They put "much of" in quotes to distance them from the accusation being reported, which does not stand up.

The second exact quote you gave, "UKIP would scrap much of the legislation designed to prevent racial discrimination in work, party leader Nigel Farage has said."

So BBC is only claiming the want to change some workplace discrimination legislation, and specifically so that British people should be employed when possible instead of giving preference to foreign nationals because they might be cheaper.

Farage answered all that, as the BBC went on to report,

" Mr Farage said: "My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all.
"I have made comments in favour of British people getting jobs over and above those from southern eastern Europe."
The UKIP leader said he was speaking up for Britain's unemployed youth "both black and white", saying the young black community had suffered the biggest rise in unemployment as a result of immigration.
He said Gordon Brown, as Labour prime minister, spoke of British jobs for British workers, adding: "Well I'm saying it and really meaning it."


13 Jan 17 - 09:20 AM (#3832322)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

What a load of wriggling. Sorry Keith, your rules do not apply to the rest of the world. Asking someone if the voices told them or if they imagined it is the same as accusing them. No wonder you are such a fan of Farage. He is even better at twisting words than you.

DtG


13 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM (#3832340)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

No wriggling from me.
Asking the question is not the same as claiming or asserting the fact, and that "rule" does apply to all.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. That is an indisputable fact.


13 Jan 17 - 11:20 AM (#3832345)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. So I guess it would also be OK if I were to ask if you were a thick cunt?

:D tG


13 Jan 17 - 11:26 AM (#3832347)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I knew he'd break you, Dave! 😉


13 Jan 17 - 01:08 PM (#3832366)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

You have it all wrong, Steve. I am not making any claims, assertions or calling anyone anything. Just asking a question ;-) Keith says that is OK, so it must be!

:D tG


13 Jan 17 - 01:22 PM (#3832368)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

In fact, if we combine a couple of Keith's rules we are on a real winner. If it is not in the manifesto it cannot be true and if it is just a question it is not making a claim about anything.

There is nothing in UKIP manifesto about kicking Nigel Farage in the bollocks so is it OK to do it?

Sorted!

:D tG


13 Jan 17 - 01:32 PM (#3832373)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Are you claiming that I'm "Steve" just because I've been posting as "Steve" for ten years, Dave? That is a typical unsubstantiated assertion, Dave, and you can't provide a single quote from me that asserts that I am actually Steve. Just more of your made-up shit, Dave. You lose!


13 Jan 17 - 01:33 PM (#3832374)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ah, but do I?

:D


13 Jan 17 - 01:44 PM (#3832377)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

I hope you realise "he's won" - any minute now
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 01:50 PM (#3832378)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

And don't even think of replying with your usual beer-flavoured spittle-flecked rant, Dave. You haven't put up a single fact to disprove that Farage is actually centre-left and that the people in that poster weren't just queuing up outside the fancy-dress shop in Dewsbury on New Year's Eve. Prove it, Dave. I don't care what you want to prove and I can't even remember what I want you to prove. Or not prove. You have never put up one single fact to prove something that I proved that you couldn't prove. Good luck with that! And can somebody tell me where the Hertford bus stop is, please?


13 Jan 17 - 01:53 PM (#3832380)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ah but will he, Jim?

Why not, Steve?

Could we get used to conversing only in questions?

:D


13 Jan 17 - 01:55 PM (#3832381)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Who knows?
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 02:01 PM (#3832382)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Isn't it quite nice to know that poor Keith thinks he's won? That he's so good at putting somebody or other's side of the story to us iggerant reprobates who have never put up a single fact about anything? And that I've forgotten how to end a sentence without a question mark?


13 Jan 17 - 02:30 PM (#3832386)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I suppose you think that's funny?

:D


13 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM (#3832389)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Wasn't it?
Who knows?
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 17 - 03:34 PM (#3832401)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Do you think we will now get someone telling us that we should not be corrupting a serious discussion with feeble attempts at humour?

Or that it is a completely different thing when other people ask a serious question?

Does anyone really give a fuck?

:D


13 Jan 17 - 03:38 PM (#3832402)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I don't "think" things, Dave. I know things, because I've read them on websites and things and that's evidence for the fact that everything I say that fits with my predigested opinion is true, and those websites and the Mirror and Telegraph and stuff supports me and not you who has quoted nothing except made-up shit, loser, prove stuff even, because, because...


13 Jan 17 - 04:51 PM (#3832420)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Ah! I think I have the answer, you could all stop using your Mudcat handles and register as Team Carroll, Gnome, or Shaw?

Of course you would have to toss for the honour. :0(

But you should have no difficulty with that...eh? :0)


13 Jan 17 - 05:14 PM (#3832423)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ahhh. Has the jester shown up?

:D


13 Jan 17 - 06:01 PM (#3832429)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

What jester, Dave? Can you corroborate that or is that yet another of your baseless accusations just because a hopeless homophobic bigot happens to have shown up? Can you give me one quote from him that has ever been in the least bit funny which demonstrates that he fits the description "jester?" Good luck with that, Dave! And bugger me sideways with a bent banana but isn't "Good luck with that, Dave" the first sentence I've typed for hours that doesn't end in a question mark? Can you put up one quote from me that proves that it wasn't? Of course not, silly! You lose!


13 Jan 17 - 09:29 PM (#3832453)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Funny thing is that every time. Keith starts a response with "Dave" then moves to the next line to tell you that you've put up a baseless accusation, etc., I think of the voice of Hal in 2001:

"Open the pod bay doors, Hal."

"I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave..."

Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do...


14 Jan 17 - 03:56 AM (#3832474)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Ah! I think I have the answer, you could all stop using your Mudcat handles and register as Team Carroll, Gnome, or Shaw?"
No Ake, the answer is that you start to respond to the points made rather than treating these these disputes as personality clashes
You refuse to justify your horrendously inhuman claims, you refuse to respond head on to the arguments - you just go on making your extremist points without justifying them over and over again, Keith is the same.
Neither of you are prepared to accept the responsibility for your constant extremism on the people you choose to victimise.
This present interlude is a bit of fun - feel free to join in and see how you get on - this is a public thread - it is people like you who choose to divide it up into cliques.
It would be so easy to refer to you tr little ream as a foursome of Rabid Rightists, but nobody does.
Leave it out and let's have some honest, open responses for a change.
When was the last time you actually answered a point? (there - another question!!)
Jim Carroll


14 Jan 17 - 04:26 AM (#3832478)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Keith starts a response with "Dave" then moves to the next line to tell you that you've put up a baseless accusation

Yes, but why do you people think it is OK to make them?
You say I defend UKIP, but all I do is ask you to justify your claims about them?
Why is that so hard for you?

If it is not in the manifesto it cannot be true

If it is not in the manifesto, it is not one of the stated aims of the Party.
If there is no racism in the views and aims as set out in the manifesto, how do you know it is racist?
You have ducked that simple question several times now so presumably you have no answer.

Isn't it quite nice to know that poor Keith thinks he's won?

This is not a debate to be won or lost.
It is you making claims that you can not substantiate, and others pointing out your failure.
No-one has won or lost, but you have failed to make your case stand up.
You would need some evidence for that.


14 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM (#3832480)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Have we not justified our claims, Keith? I thought we had on a number of occasions? Why can you not understand that?

:D tG


14 Jan 17 - 04:35 AM (#3832481)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

And the music goes round and round - and comes out - where?
Jim Carroll


14 Jan 17 - 04:54 AM (#3832486)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Have we not justified our claims, Keith? I thought we had on a number of occasions? Why can you not understand that?

I can not understand why you think you have!
It is not true that UKIP plans to "axe much of race discrimination law."
Non-racist explanations have been provided for the comment on Romanians.
The poster was a legitimate news image of a current EU issue.

Not one unequivocal example of racism has been produced.
If that is not true, remind us of one.


14 Jan 17 - 05:37 AM (#3832493)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I can not understand why you think you have!

Different moralities. Different language. Different planet.

DtG


14 Jan 17 - 05:47 AM (#3832496)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"It is not true that UKIP plans to "axe much of race discrimination law."
An obvious lie - please explain this
Your explanation is an excuse - nobody else has made such a claim
Jim Carroll

Britain doesn't need anti-discrimination laws, says Farage
He made the comments in a documentary that will go out next week.
Mar 12th 2015
NIGEL FARAGE, LEADER of the UK Independence Party (UKIP), sparked outrage today for saying Britain should scrap laws on racial discrimination at work because it was no longer a problem.
In a documentary to be screened next week, the head of the anti-mass immigration, anti-European Union party said he would repeal "much of" the legislation introduced a generation ago to stop employers hiring staff on the basis of ethnicity and gender.
He said businesses were burdened with regulations and scrapping such laws would allow them to hire British workers – from any ethnic background – rather than immigrants to address the issue of unemployment among young Britons.
"Moved way beyond that"
In a BBC radio interview, Farage said discrimination legislation had been necessary in the past but "I think we've moved way beyond that as a society".
Asked if there should be redress for victims of racial discrimination, he said: "Yes of course, if people are being blatantly racist, but they're not.
"Let's stop beating ourselves up and saying we're a racist country, we're not. We've moved way, way, way beyond that."
He said: "I think employers should be able to employ people on ability… Let's try please to put the interests of unemployed black and white British youth first."
A spokesman for Prime Minister David Cameron, whose Conservative Party risks losing some of its lawmakers to UKIP in the May general election, said Farage was "wrong".
"The laws are there to protect people from racial discrimination. It's deeply concerning he doesn't understand that," he said.
Opposition
Opposition Labour justice spokesman Sadiq Khan said Farage showed "breathtaking ignorance" and said his proposal would take Britain back to the days when businesses put up signs saying they would admit "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish".
"We have made huge progress on tackling racial inequality and discrimination in this country… but things are still far from perfect," he said.
The Labour Party this week released figures showing that long-term unemployment among black and minority ethnic young people had increased by 49 percent since 2010.
Overall the number of 18 to 24-year-olds unemployed for more than a year fell one percent in the same period, according to The Guardian newspaper.


14 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM (#3832579)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, we have been through all that.
From your quote,
"Britain should scrap laws on racial discrimination at work."

Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national, whatever their race, over foreign nationals just because they are cheaper.
"British jobs for British workers" as Gordon Brown used to say.

BBC on this issue.

" Mr Farage said: "My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all.
"I have made comments in favour of British people getting jobs over and above those from southern eastern Europe."
The UKIP leader said he was speaking up for Britain's unemployed youth "both black and white", saying the young black community had suffered the biggest rise in unemployment as a result of immigration.
He said Gordon Brown, as Labour prime minister, spoke of British jobs for British workers, adding: "Well I'm saying it and really meaning it."

Link supplied yesterday.


14 Jan 17 - 01:29 PM (#3832583)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
Different moralities.

No. I do not believe we have different moralities and ask you to justify that claim. Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

I am as opposed to racism every bit as much as I am sure you are.
I just ask for evidence of it before I vilify someone or some party for it.
Farage and UKIP may well be racist and worthy of our contempt, but show me some unequivocal evidence for it first.
Why is that so hard to do?

Different language.

I ask you to justify that claim too.
Which words are you claiming have different meaning for us?
Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

Different planet.

That is just silly Dave. That vacuous claim can never be justified, so why make it?


14 Jan 17 - 02:04 PM (#3832597)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Please do not make vacuous claims that you can not justify.

Who died and made you boss?

The difference is blatantly there for all to see so I have no need to justify anything. You do not believe the actions of Farage and UKIP are racist. I, along with many other people do. Are you so stupid that you cannot even see that?

DtG


14 Jan 17 - 03:24 PM (#3832612)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national,"
On a racist basis then - agreement at last
"My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all."
He lied - he said elsewhere that he only said what he said under stress - a bit like you really
You haven't commented on anything else I put up so I take it we agree he's a racist!
He linked foreigners with bringing aids into Britain and demanded they receive no treatment - isn't that racist in your book?
You are one sick cookie Keith
Jim Carroll


14 Jan 17 - 03:27 PM (#3832613)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Forgot the link
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11514369/Revealed-Nigel-Farage-planned-Aids-comment-as-part-of-shock-and-awful-TV-debate-strategy.html
Jim Carroll


15 Jan 17 - 04:48 AM (#3832689)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
You do not believe the actions of Farage and UKIP are racist. I, along with many other people do. Are you so stupid that you cannot even see that?

So it is down to "belief" not evidence Dave, and I am "stupid" for requiring actual evidence of their racism.

I am willing to see their racism and keep asking you to identify it, but you seem unable to.

UKIP is a political party. Its aims and objectives are set out in its manifesto and its literature.
If there is no racism in any of that, how do you know it is racist.

It seems like just prejudice because their views differ from yours.

Jim,
"Yes, but only those that prevent employers giving preference to British national,"
On a racist basis then - agreement at last


Not on a racial basis. What is wrong with you?
British Nationals are of all races. EU immigrants are overwhelmingly white. Race has nothing to do with it.

Gordon Brown also demanded, "British jobs for British workers."
Racist Jim?

"My comments have been wilfully misinterpreted. I have made no comments about the Race Relations Act at all."
He lied


How could he. He said it on camera to Channel 4 !

You haven't commented on anything else I put up so I take it we agree he's a racist!

No. I need evidence first and you have produced none.

He linked foreigners with bringing aids into Britain and demanded they receive no treatment - isn't that racist in your book?

He did not demand that. Just that treatment of foreign nationals should not be paid for by the NHS which is struggling to treat those who pay for it.


15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM (#3832694)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

and I am "stupid" for requiring actual evidence of their racism.


But I never said you were stupid, Keith. I just asked the question.

You remember this surely? It was less than 2 days ago!
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 10:56 AM

No wriggling from me.
Asking the question is not the same as claiming or asserting the fact, and that "rule" does apply to all.
I have never claimed or asserted that you imagined them. I just asked the question. That is an indisputable fact.


:D tG


15 Jan 17 - 04:59 AM (#3832695)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

I have no itntention of being any part of your fucking up another thread Keith
You are a racist - your attack on Pakistanis makes that beyond doubt
Ukip is racist - its attack on foreigners puts that beyond any doubt and your supposrt for it only confirms it.
I have little doubt that, if BNP ever comes up you would first say you don't support it, as you have about Ukip and then put in the same effort as you have here in supporting its policies.
Ukip is nothing more than the BNP with political ambitions and a little more nouse.
Be happy to be part of both
Jim Carroll


15 Jan 17 - 05:06 AM (#3832697)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and my belief is based on the evidence I have given. I, and many others, just interpret the evidence in a different way to you. Hence the different moralities, different language and different planet comments. Got it yet or are you still struggling with that basic concept?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 07:24 AM (#3832719)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Farage also wants to force all migrants to have five years' private medical cover. That discriminates against poorer migrants - racism by whatever name you want to call it - and it also, ironically, invites queue-jumping for medical treatment!


15 Jan 17 - 07:43 AM (#3832722)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: DMcG

Off topic but a little tale for all those who buy the media stuff about how easy immigrants get benefits. My daughter was born in Kent and lived there or in Hatfield until she was 28 except for studying in Durham. Then she worked abroad for two years and came back for a while to see us, where she had a temp job up to and over the Christmas period. On Friday she went to sign on with two agencies and also at the Job Centre. It appears she is not entitled to any job seeker or other benefits because she is regarded as an EEA citizen not a UK one and she hasnt been in the country long enough.


15 Jan 17 - 08:27 AM (#3832730)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
You are a racist

No I am not, and you can quote nothing racist I have ever said, Liar.

- your attack on Pakistanis makes that beyond doubt

I have never attacked any ethnic group, liar.

Dave,

Oh, and my belief is based on the evidence I have given


Which is none. All you have given is disputable, disputed and denied.
Nothing unequivocally racist has yet been produced.

just interpret the evidence in a different way to you.

How I interpret it is irrelevant.
Their political enemies give racist interpretations rejected and denied by the people who actually said it!
That is just attempted smearing.

I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.
That is the difference in our moralities Dave.

Steve,

Farage also wants to force all migrants to have five years' private medical cover.


What happens to migrants in countries without an NHS?
When they become British National, they are covered by NHS.
Foreign Nationals are not. It is an economic argument about where the funding should come from, not a racial one.


15 Jan 17 - 08:29 AM (#3832731)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.
That is the difference in our moralities Dave.


Neither do I, Keith. Have I said anyone is evil?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 08:37 AM (#3832733)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yes Dave. You have said they are racist. That is evil.


15 Jan 17 - 09:03 AM (#3832737)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I have never attacked any ethnic group, liar."#Since when are Pakistanis not an ethnic group - want me to put up yiur quote again?
Farage is a racist, you are a racist for supporting him and for what you have said on this forum about other races
End of story, unless you want me to put up that quote - don't hesitate to ask - I have it filed.
Jim Carroll


15 Jan 17 - 09:05 AM (#3832738)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Ah - what the hell, if it'll help put an end to this friggin' nonsense
Jim Carroll

This, from a debate on the causes of "massive over-representation of Muslims" in sexual crimes against underage young women in Britain
You may check the context on the "Muslim prejudice" thread.
I trust these are Keith's posts and that the Russians haven't hacked this website
Jim Carroll


Muslim Prejudice thread.
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.

Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.

Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us

Later
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:11 PM
I find it hard to understand your reluctance.
I have restated my case many times, and will do it again if anyone asks.
Alan, you have been following the debate.
Are you clear why Lox is certain there can be no cultural cause?
Lizzie?

Later
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 02:48 PM
I was just hoping that if no one else knows why you can not accept a cultural cause either, you might remind us.
You have said that you do not accept that there is a distinct BP culture.
Is that it?
You would not want to risk ridicule by saying that again.
Does anyone here know why Lox rejects a cultural explanation?
Dave, you have been more than fair in you comments on this debate.
Do you know?

Later
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 04:29 PM
"And Alan - by definition, a hypothesis which discriminates solely on the base of race/culture and which deliberately excludes all other factors is a racist hypothesis."
So, if we think that culture might be the explanation for the massive over representation, we must unthink it, because it is "racist."
No theorising is permissable, or you are a racist.
Stop the debate, or be guilty of racism.
You must not even imagine such a thing.
Quite liberal Lox. not shared with us?


15 Jan 17 - 09:34 AM (#3832747)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

When I go to an EU country my EHIC card covers me as if I was a national of that country. A reciprocal arrangement, Keith. UK nationals living in or retiring to, for example, Spain, can normally expect to be treated in exactly the same way as a Spanish national and that is also reciprocal. Travelling to countries expressly for treatment may not be covered. But that isn't what Farage meant, as otherwise he wouldn't have had to say it. He means all health care for five years and nothing for AIDS sufferers, even if they didn't come here expressly for treatment. Great if you're rich. Shitty and unaffordable if you're poor. Discrimination, Keith. At the moment anyone who is ordinarily resident in this country can use the NHS the same as everybody else regardless of nationality and how long they've been here. If you've never been here, arrive by parachute and break your ankle on landing, you'll get exactly the same primary care for free as everyone else. Remove your blinkers and THINK about the implications of Farage's proposition. Farage planned that speech carefully with his spin doctors and knew exactly what sentiments he was appealing to. And so do you. Admit it.


15 Jan 17 - 09:41 AM (#3832750)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes Dave. You have said they are racist. That is evil.

Different moralities. Different language. Different planet.

Now, where have I actually said that anyone was evil? Produce the quote. Give me some evidence or shall we just say it was made up shit? Good luck with that :-)

Racism is a plague and unpleasant. Evil goes beyond that.

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 11:33 AM (#3832770)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Christ, what's wrong with you Dave?   We are all agreed that racism is evil.....you contend that Mr Farage is a racist....therefore you must think he is evil for holding racist views.    Can you never stop your pin dancing? It is indeed a form of trolling.

There has been no evidence submitted that either Keith or Mr Farage are racists.
I remember the thread in question and Keith was repeating the views of those who had been interviewed by the Times......including the views of prominent Muslims. These people said that the culture of young Pakistani men contributed to the problem of sexual abuse of young girls.

That seems undeniable as the crimes were committed almost exclusively by young Pakistani Muslim men.


15 Jan 17 - 01:48 PM (#3832799)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I believe that Farage is racist and a twat but to declare someone is evil because of their political beliefs is even beyond you surely, ake? Your argument that because he is a racist he must be evil is as flawed as your belief that because someone is homosexual they must be a pervert.

This is what this whole thread was about. I delivered the proposition that Theresa may (no pun intended) be starting to show that the Tory party, under her leadership, can change. I know I may be in conflict with some of my friends on here for that proposition but it is early days and she has yet to prove herself.

That you think I am trolling is entirely irrelevant. It has already been pointed out that it is you that display the traits of an internet troll. Also, as has already been pointed out, you have not contributed an original thought to any thread for a long time and can only seem to cheer others on from the sidelines. I am not sure what else that makes you.

I repeat, Farage is, in my opinion, a racist twat, but evil? Nah, too many people can see through him and he is too conceited to be a real threat. He is no Hitler no matter how much he aspires to be.

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 01:49 PM (#3832800)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and seeing as you declined to accept my offer of an olive branch, is it now OK to tell you to fuck off?

:D tG


15 Jan 17 - 01:58 PM (#3832801)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
In your first quote I say I believe what all those people say.
I believe them because they are from that culture, or are Labour MPs with a large community from that culture.

They know about it. I do not even claim to.
Why not quote what I told Don I do not claim?

In your second quote and third quote, what is it you object to?
Nothing there supports your lying smears against me.

Farage is a racist, you are a racist for supporting him

I have not supported him. I just asked that you justify your accusations against him, but you can't.

and for what you have said on this forum about other races

I have never said anything about any race, liar.
Prove me wrong, liar.
Quote me doing what you claim, liar.


15 Jan 17 - 02:09 PM (#3832805)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
Now, where have I actually said that anyone was evil?

You say that Farage and UKIP are racist. Racism is not politics.
Being racist is evil.

If they are racist I join you in condemning and vilifying them, but I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.
That is the difference between our moralities Dave.

Steve, if health costs are covered by reciprocal arrangements there is no issue.
Otherwise foreign nationals are not entitled to free NHS treatment.
Asylum seekers are currently granted free treatment and no-one has suggested that should stop. Just that it should not come from the NHS budget. Agree or disagree with it, but it is a valid, economic argument and not a racist one.


15 Jan 17 - 02:24 PM (#3832806)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

but I will not believe evil of my fellow man without firm evidence.

Did we not go through this just a few hours ago Keith? Is your memory really that bad or are you just trying to ignore the facts? I will not believe evil of my fellow men without evidence either. I believe Farage is a racist twat but evil is something else.

Different moralities. Different language. Different planet.

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 02:25 PM (#3832807)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve, sorry but I could only find this reported in the Mail.

"Foreigners will be banned from entering Britain unless they have health insurance, under Ukip plans announced today."

"A flagship policy will be forcing migrants, students and visitors to show they have approved medical insurance before they are allowed into Britain as part of the crackdown on 'health tourism'.
The party's health spokesman Louise Bours will claim the move will stop up to £2billion being lost every year because of foreigners using the NHS to get treatment or prescriptions."

Everyone travelling abroad should have medical insurance.

The current situation,

Pay for UK healthcare as part of your immigration application.

You may need to pay a healthcare surcharge (called the 'immigration health surcharge' or IHS) as part of your immigration application.
If you're applying online or through the premium service centre, you'll pay the surcharge as part of your application or when you book an appointment.
If you're applying by post, you must pay the healthcare surcharge online before you send your application - you'll need to include the IHS reference number on your application form.
Your information will be shared with the National Health Service (NHS) in England if:
you've paid the healthcare surcharge (or are exempt from paying it)
your visa or immigration application is granted
You'll then be able to use the NHS. You'll still need to pay for certain types of services, eg prescriptions, dental treatment and eye tests.
You should bring your biometric residence permit with you when you access healthcare in the UK.
Visitor visas and short-term visas
You don't have to pay the healthcare surcharge if you're applying from outside the UK for a visitor visa or any visa that lasts 6 months or less.
You don't need to use the healthcare surcharge service or get an IHS reference number for your visa application. Instead, you'll have to pay for any healthcare you get through the NHS at the point you use it.

https://www.gov.uk/healthcare-immigration-application/overview


15 Jan 17 - 02:25 PM (#3832808)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

You are also disingenuous Dave, I was pointing out that Keith was repeating the words of an interview group containing prominent Muslims who suggested that the child rapes were influenced by the culture of young Pakistani Muslim men........Do you now accept that contention?   If not please explain the fact that almost all of these "grooming" crimes were committed by Pakistani Muslim males.


15 Jan 17 - 02:33 PM (#3832810)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, I suspect that you are alone here in not thinking racism evil.
If you do not think racism evil then I accept that we have a language discrepancy between us, as well as the morality discrepancy that I described.

Planet wise, we remain cohabitants. Where do you think we live?


15 Jan 17 - 02:37 PM (#3832812)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Why are you asking me, ake? I have not commented on that. Are you losing your marbles as well?

But seeing as you ask, I did point out, when it was going on, that there could well be other explanations for the perpetrators of these crimes seemingly being British Pakistani males. That the papers are reporting those crimes more than others is one. That the police are targeting that ethnic group is another. That that particular ethnic group is better at policing itself that others and ensures better co-operation with police is a third while moving the blame onto that cultural group by other perpetrators is yet another. There could be umpteen reasons behind it and all of them are as valid as the one put forward by Keith. And parroted by you.

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 02:46 PM (#3832817)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

To call someone a 'paki' or a 'nigger' is racist.
To kill someone for being a Pakistani or for being black is evil.
The vast majority of racists belong in the former class. Evil people belong in the second.

Can you not see the difference?

At least you agree that we speak a different language and have different moralities now. I will try to reason with a racist. I suspect anyone who is really evil is past reason.

The other measure of us speaking a different language is your insistence that we inhabit the same piece of pock. Do you not understand metaphors? Have you never used a figure of speech yourself?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 02:50 PM (#3832818)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

there could be umpteen reasons behind it and all of them are as valid as the one put forward by Keith.

I put forward no theory.
I said I believed the theory held all those people (and many more since including judges) that aspects of culture were behind it.

I know nothing about the culture myself.


15 Jan 17 - 02:57 PM (#3832820)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
Can you not see the difference?

No. I think racism is evil, and I am sure that all here would agree.

At least you agree that we speak a different language and have different moralities now.

Yes. I think racism evil, but you don't.

My morality prevents me believing evil (including racism) of anyone without firm evidence, but yours does.

And yes, the planetary challenge was not serious.


15 Jan 17 - 02:59 PM (#3832821)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"In your first quote I say I believe what all those people say." - you lied - they said no such thing and you have consistently refused to produce anybody saying it, as you will now.
You lied then - you are lying now.
It doesn't matter anyway - anybody who claims an entire people is prone to having sex with underage girls because of their culture is a raving mad racist anyway - feckin' certifiable.
I've just been watching Holocaust Day The Antiques Roadshow which has displayed a boardgame designed by the Nazis to teach children to hate Jews - your appalling statement does just that for hating Muslims - absolute filth!
You denied saying it - you lied
Now you are telling us why you said it and are lying about that
To describe an entire people as having to suppress their culture to prevent themselves from raping children is obscene.
Now you are joined by another madman equally [prepared to defend such behaviour - two of a kind
Produce your quotes and you might reduce your sentence a little - don't and learn to serve your time.
Jim Carroll
By the way - another programme is now showing that what happened to the Jews in Germany is now happening to the Arabs in Israel


15 Jan 17 - 03:38 PM (#3832828)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

No. I think racism is evil, and I am sure that all here would agree

So would I, Keith, but the fact remains that I have never called anyone evil. You have not found any evidence of me doing so because there is none. Have you found any yet? Yet you said I did just that. Did you lie?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 04:05 PM (#3832834)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Irrelevant, Keith and you know it. Farage's proposals are within the context of the situation apropos of the EU. Your remarks are not. His remarks were made during the referendum campaign. He wanted to do away with the reciprocal agreements with EU countries He wanted to refuse treatment for HIV sufferers whether or not they had EXPRESSLY travelled here for treatment. he wanted EU citizens who can come to this country at present and receive the same NHS healthcare as everyone else to be forced to take out five years of private health insurance, blatant discrimination against poorer citizens. Stick to the point and stop trying to defend that absolute arsehole.


15 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM (#3832835)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

You said racism is evil and Mr Farage is a racist, yet you claim to think Mr Farage is not evil?

Pin dancer in chief :0)? not really, just wriggly disingenuous troll.


15 Jan 17 - 04:10 PM (#3832836)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Out of interest, I do believe that racism and hate are evil. I would denounce them at every opportunity. Yet I also believe that people who hate others because of racist views are not beyond redemption and not necessarily evil people. Just misguided. I am happy to speak to them of the error of their ways and forgive them. Is that not what you Christians preach, Keith?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 04:23 PM (#3832840)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Ake, I also believe that you are a racist, homophobic bigot. But I do not believe that you are evil. Can you prove me wrong on either count?

DtG


15 Jan 17 - 06:41 PM (#3832859)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: bobad

what happened to the Jews in Germany is now happening to the Arabs in Israel

A blatant anti-Semitic lie - thank you for once again showing your colours.


16 Jan 17 - 03:48 AM (#3832904)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
you lied - they said no such thing

I do not lie.
They all ascribed the offending to aspects of the culture, and culture effects us all to some degree.

So would I, Keith, but the fact remains that I have never called anyone evil.

You call them racist which is evil.

Steve,
He wanted to do away with the reciprocal agreements with EU countries
No he did not.

He wanted to refuse treatment for HIV sufferers whether or not they had EXPRESSLY travelled here for treatment

No. He just questioned that NHS should pay for it.

he wanted EU citizens who can come to this country at present and receive the same NHS healthcare as everyone else to be forced to take out five years of private health insurance, blatant discrimination against poorer citizens.

No. He did not specify EU vistors. Many have a reciprocal arrangement anyway.
He said all visitors should have health insurance, and that would include EU visitors without an arrangement.

Dave, I am glad you now agree that racism is evil.
Re forgiveness, Is that not what you Christians preach, Keith?

Yes it is. Also a Christian would not believe evil of his fellow man without firm evidence, unlike you.


Ake, I also believe that you are a racist, homophobic bigot.


There you go believing evil of a fellow man without any evidence.


16 Jan 17 - 03:57 AM (#3832907)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Don't expect me to join you in your "last tango" Dave.
I have no need to justify my views on homosexuality or racism, to this forum, I have done that for an exceedingly long time and explained my position fully.

I am not in the slightest racist and have yet to hear one coherent response in favour of homosexual "marriage", which does not improve equality but discriminates against heterosexuals.

Last week, a bill to provide Civil Union to heteros who do not wish to marry was thrown out by parliament. this of course means that homosexuals have more civil rights than heteros.
Why no outcry from "liberals" on this extremely important issue which affects many more people than the Homosexual marriage legislation?


16 Jan 17 - 04:09 AM (#3832908)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

And there you go again only quoting part of what I put. The full quote is Ake, I also believe that you are a racist, homophobic bigot. But I do not believe that you are evil. Can you prove me wrong on either count?

Now, why did you miss out the 'I do not believe you are evil' bit? Was it so you could write 'There you go believing evil of a fellow man without any evidence.'? Misrepresentation is not a very Christian thing to do either is it?

DtG


16 Jan 17 - 04:21 AM (#3832910)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Dave, I don't particularly care what you think of me, I come here for discussion of important subjects, to learn and to hear other views.
So rest easy I don't lose any sleep over any personal nonsense ON this forum.

Oh damn, I didn't notice that the band had stopped......I suppose that's us eliminated?


16 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM (#3832912)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

So - there we have it Keith
Once again you refuse to produce your so-called examples of people who have claimed that all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted to have sex with underage girls
They don't exist - no public person has ever made such a horrendous statement and you have never produced an example of the ever having done so - it is totally all your own work.
Even it were true, it would still be a profoundly racist statement
What you are claiming that you hold such a racist view (it is obvious you still do) because a small handful of totally unknown (up to this subject being raised) individuals and a politician, told you it was true that all male Pakistanis are implanted to rape children by their culture - no research, no survey figures, no documented evidence, no qualifications of any of the individuals concerned in the field of cultural or religious science, no overall expertise - just a claimed opinion that you refuse to share with the rest of us.
And you dare to hold two threads to ransom on the obvious racism of Ukip and Farage
Utterly and completely insane!!
Ake
Racism is evil but that does not make all racists evil - some certainly are.
It is estimated that one third of the British people could possibly hold racist views and have expressed those views at one time or another - that does not make them evil, it makes them misled.
You have recently joined the ranks of being a racist by supporting Keith's claim that all male Pakistanis..... etc - you are supporting a profoundly racist statement.
Jim Carroll


16 Jan 17 - 04:57 AM (#3832915)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Racism is evil but that does not make all racists evil - some certainly are.

That is exactly what I have been trying to get across. Thanks Jim. To some on here it seems that if you call someone a racist you are branding them as the devil incarnate. I do not believe that. Most people have a certain level of 'ism' be that related to sex, race or creed. We cannot help it. It is part of the human condition. What most people do though is resist the temptation to act on it. It is working and as new generations grow the 'isms' are being diluted and eventualy they will be all but a memory. I hope!

What politicians like Farage and newspapers like the Mail do is pander to those base instincts and, while they are not evil in themselves, they can bring forth evil in those who are particularly unstable such as Thomas Mair. The human psyche is a very complex and often vulnerable thing that cannot be categorised as wholly good or wholly evil. It is perfectly possible for a good person to commit acts of evil or an evil person to do some good. We cannot, therefore, dismiss a person as being evil but we can condemn any evil acts they commit and try to set them on the right path.

It is bloody hard work at times though ;-)

Cheers

DtG


16 Jan 17 - 05:07 AM (#3832916)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, to me and I am sure everyone else here, being a "racist, homophobic, bigot" would be evil.

Jim, all those people quoted ascribed the offending to aspects of culture, and many more have in the six years since we had that discussion.
Culture effects us all to an extent, but I was at pains to state that only a tiny minority were effected by this.

I am now taking my dear wife on a long awaited and much deserved holiday, and I am not taking this shit with me.
I give you the last word.
Do your worst,
keith.


16 Jan 17 - 05:14 AM (#3832917)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I have just explained my position in the post just before yours, Keith. You can either accept it or not. It does not matter one bit to me and I do not feel the need for any last word.

I do hope you and your wife have a wonderful holiday.

Cheers

Dave


16 Jan 17 - 06:27 AM (#3832927)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

I went to a Catholic all-boys school in Bolton. At that time, the numbers of migrants from Pakistan in Bolton was rising rapidly. When I think back, my school was infested by racism, antisemitism, homophobia and misogyny and the staff, mainly priests and brothers, were either complicit in the prejudices or ignorant of them. No-one was ever castigated for referring to Pakis, niggers, yids, puffs, queers, tarts or slappers. Your achievements with girls were measured by the amount of bragging you could do about which parts of their anatomy you'd managed to lay your hands on, etc. Seven years of that would corrupt the most saintly of us. It takes a lot of mixing with good people and a lot of wrist-slapping and reflection to extirpate those prejudices. In fact, you have to fight it all your life, which doesn't mean you have to carry the PC dictionary around in your head but you do have to do a lot of antenna-tweaking. Some people never make it. One or two post here, unfortunately. They usually flag themselves by the sniping nature of their posts, their inability to develop an argument and their intent on winning at all costs, even if that involves ditching rational behaviour.


16 Jan 17 - 06:28 AM (#3832928)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, all those people quoted ascribed the offending to aspects of culture, and many more have in the six years since we had that discussion."
None have - you produced none and its the most extreme racist statement ever made on this forum
You are an extreme racist - end of story
Jim Carroll


16 Jan 17 - 06:42 AM (#3832933)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Steve Shaw

Number was or numbers were. Either of those, but not my original. 😳


16 Jan 17 - 07:01 AM (#3832939)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

You now appear to be claiming that many people are now saying that all Pakistanis are culturally implanted to rape children
Can you provide examples please?
Jim Carroll


16 Jan 17 - 11:43 AM (#3832967)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I feel a Star Trek moment coming on.

It's quiet, Jim. Too quiet...

:D tG


16 Jan 17 - 11:44 AM (#3832968)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

...in fairness, Keith has told us he is on holiday so the last remark is not aimed at him ;-)


16 Jan 17 - 11:45 AM (#3832969)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

Everything comes to he wo waits Dave
Fancy a game of chess?
Jim Carroll


16 Jan 17 - 12:12 PM (#3832979)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I remember a song called 'Life's too short for chess'. Possibly the guy who played piano on 'That's Life'. Can't remember his name without asking Mr Google.

Richard Stilgoe - That's the chap. Can't see if it was him that sang it though.

DtG


16 Jan 17 - 12:13 PM (#3832982)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Good Soldier Schweik

Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 16 Jan 17 - 03:57 AM

Don't expect me to join you in your "last tango" Dave.
I have no need to justify my views on homosexuality or racism, to this forum, I have done that for an exceedingly long time and explained my position fully.

I am not in the slightest racist and have yet to hear one coherent response in favour of homosexual "marriage", which does not improve equality but discriminates against heterosexuals.

Last week, a bill to provide Civil Union to heteros who do not wish to marry was thrown out by parliament. this of course means that homosexuals have more civil rights than heteros.
Why no outcry from "liberals" on this extremely important issue which affects many more people than the Homosexual marriage legislation?"

I agree that people should have equal rights regardless of their sexual inclinations, presumably transgender people do not have the same rights as homosexuals either.
this is probably because there are more homosexuals than transgenders in parliament, politicians apart from being corrupt tend to look after their own interests.
the uk parliament has been very good at losing dossiers on paedophiles and protecting the likes of cyril smith and greville janner,
    edward heath made jimmy saville a peer, could he have been looking after his own?we will never know because it will be hushed up, it appears that Harold Wilson, WAS NOT going to make him a peer, Heath took over and he became sir jimmy, what happened to the boys that allegedly disappeared off Heaths yacht, are they still missing?


16 Jan 17 - 12:27 PM (#3832989)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

Good Soldier, the anomaly has nothing to do with "equality", which is a complete myth in any case.....but more to do with "liberal" ideology and political power through the support of minorities.
If such a thing as "equality" existed the whole country would be up in arms over the dismissal of the Hetero Civil rights issue. I t affects millions more than the Homosexual "marriage" legislation and discriminates against them severely.

Where are all the people who allege homophobia now? Where are their strongly held beliefs on equality .....they are silent and will remain silent lest the truth shines out, that equality only applies to prescribed sections of society.


16 Jan 17 - 12:33 PM (#3832991)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I would be careful of believing all that ake puts, Dick. Heterosexuals have had the right to civil unions by marrying in a registry office for many years. There are also equal rights for anyone co-habiting rather than marrying and the recent alignment for same sex partners has merely brought the law into the 21st century. Homosexuals do not have 'more rights' than heterosexuals in this country and are never likely to.

DtG


16 Jan 17 - 12:33 PM (#3832992)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"I am not in the slightest racist"
As far is racism is concerned you let others espouse it and then support it from the sidelines
Every bit as racist, whichever position you adopt
Forcing refugees to wear identification insignia is classic racism, even compared with the Jewish Yellow stars by the gutter press - supported by you
"yet to hear one coherent response in favour of homosexual "marriage""
Try the law, you friggin' homophobic dinaosaur - lets not forget your "gay plague" filth
Jim Carroll


16 Jan 17 - 03:39 PM (#3833013)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: akenaton

You are not often right Dave, but you're wrong again.


Hetero civil partnerships in the UK


16 Jan 17 - 04:17 PM (#3833024)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

But such a bill was not 'thrown out by parliament' was it ake?

The Bill to extend civil partnerships to mixed-sex couples was debated in parliament today (Friday 13th January) but ran out of time before a vote could be taken. In response to the debate Equal Civil Partnerships Campaign Manager Matt Hawkins said:

"In today's debate MPs from across the political divide spoke passionately – and almost unanimously – in favour of giving mixed-sex couples the right to get a civil partnership. MPs on all sides were in agreement that is the right, popular, and positive thing to do. Change will come – no matter how many minor administrative obstacles the government chooses to raise in objection: couples who have waited years for legal and protection financial protection are unlikely to be swayed by an argument about the number of textual amendments law makers will need to make just to give them the rights they seek and deserve. With over 71000 signatories on our petition for equal civil partnerships and MPs from every party backing our cause, we are confident that we will win through."

The Bill will return to parliament on 24th March.


But don't let little things like facts get in the way of your fantasies. And let us look a bit more closely about how this came about. It was because for many years gay marriage was not possible so a civil partnership was an alternative. That option was already available to mixed sex couples as common law marriage and the official ceremony was simply to formalise the arrangement. Your nonsense about homosexuals having more rights than heterosexuals was just that. Nonsense.

Does it make you feel any better to demonise homosexuals all the time?

DtG


16 Jan 17 - 08:06 PM (#3833048)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"Does it make you feel any better to demonise homosexuals all the time?"
LATENT HOMOSEXUAL DENIAL Dave - a known mental condition brought about by staying in closets for too long
Thought you might have worked that out
Jim Carroll


17 Jan 17 - 05:14 AM (#3833098)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

I doubt it, Jim. All the LGBT people I have met have been kind and considerate of others. A far cry from some on here!

DtG


17 Jan 17 - 05:24 AM (#3833099)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Jim Carroll

"All the LGBT people I have met have been kind and considerate of others"
Tre - but bad apples in every barrel
"Some on here"
I've only noticed one - the disease appears not to have spread
Jim Carroll


17 Jan 17 - 06:08 AM (#3833110)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Only one spouting, Jim, but he has some supporters :-(

D.


20 Jan 17 - 06:03 AM (#3833664)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: Dave the Gnome

Judging by this weeks Brexit speech the new year message was just empty words after all. Ah well. Disappointed but not in the least bit surprised. :-(

DtG


23 Jan 17 - 04:57 PM (#3834374)
Subject: RE: BS: Theresa May's new year message
From: keberoxu

Keith A of Hertford set off already on his travels with his spouse.
Wishing him fair winds, following seas, and many pleasant and peaceful moments.