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BS: Trump Korean War II

02 Apr 17 - 03:46 PM (#3848224)
Subject: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

There is sabre rattling then there is drawing a gun. Both Trump and Tillerman warn China to do something about North Korea or the US will.

Trump Meets wit the Chinese President at Mara Lago. Who cares if they shake hands. I think Trump will make his bones with a fool hearty military strike on Korea. China will call his bluff. Russia, Japan as well as China will all have a response if Trump goes mad.

Our State Dept. has no one left to offer a diplomatic solution.

Then again who cares what I believe. It is what Trump and a double funded US military believe that counts.

Lets all hope this topic evaporates but I would hold back on Hyundai and KIA purchases.




https://www.democracynow.org/2017/3/13/china_warns_us_north_korea_are


03 Apr 17 - 03:58 AM (#3848288)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Mr Red

And Samsung phones? The ones that haven't self-destructed that is.


03 Apr 17 - 07:07 PM (#3848434)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

China is into making money. South Korea, China, Japan, and India are the Economic Big Four in Asia. ROK (South Korea) is a favored trading partner of China. Russia has its own problems, mostly stemming from Putin's desire to reprise the Cold War in the hopes that it will cure some of Russia's woes -- but Russia doesn't want those woes added to by a war on the Manchurian border. Should North Korea, or rather the current crazy there, start shooting at South Korea and/or Japan and/or the US, well, China, India, Russia, and US all have nukes and would, I think, use them. So do France and Britain, although they are more remote from the problem. There is a good reason why it's still called "The UN Command."

The current US president has no concept of all of this, although he does have oral diarrhea similar to that of Kim Jung Un and a similar sense of self importance.


03 Apr 17 - 07:19 PM (#3848437)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

Kim Jung Il, I think you meant.

It was always tense, but I felt like full-scale war wasn't likely. There are only a few miles between North & South Korea, and I didn't believe the North was capable of carrying on an extended campaign. They were (IMO) crazy as fuck, but most of the "crazy" strategies would have them pretty much injuring themselves.

There's a reason the war never ended, and there's a reason it's not really being fought now.


04 Apr 17 - 04:13 AM (#3848481)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Our State Dept. has no one left to offer a diplomatic solution.

The previous administration also failed to achieve a diplomatic or any other solution.
This problem has not arisen in the last few weeks.


04 Apr 17 - 05:09 AM (#3848492)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"All previous administrations also failed to achieve a diplomatic or any other solution."

Fixed that for you. You're welcome.


04 Apr 17 - 07:37 AM (#3848508)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

I think Keith was referring to the Obama administration Stu.


04 Apr 17 - 07:54 AM (#3848510)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: punkfolkrocker

Has anyone in the White House attempted a little reality check to see if Trump believes he can win so decisively
because he can deploy Captain America, Iron Man, Superman,
and the full ultra patriotic teams of The Avengers and The Justice League of America to easily defeat N. Korea...??? 🙄


04 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM (#3848525)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"I think Keith was referring to the Obama administration Stu."

I understand that Ake, but no-one has managed to find a way to deal with North Korea and even the Chinese are wary of them. Singling out a single administration is meaningless; how to contain the NK leader would be far more pertinent a question.


04 Apr 17 - 03:39 PM (#3848618)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

N.Korea only became a nuclear power with long range missiles during the last administration.


04 Apr 17 - 10:48 PM (#3848668)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

Kim Jung Un is the current Head Crazy of No. Korea; he is the son of Kim Jung Il, who was the son of Kim Il Sung.

FWIW, the Second Korean War has already been fought and won. Another link for more information is here.


04 Apr 17 - 11:25 PM (#3848671)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

Sorry - I was momentarily living in the past. The first war never officially ended, and technically, both Koreas are still at war. When I was there, stuff happened along the DMZ on a regular basis. We heard about it because we were there, but those occurrences were generally not reported in the US.

I hope that if North Korea actually hits something with a bomb, we dump every conventional weapon we have on them, and fuck China. (Yes, I'm feeling grumpy tonight.)


04 Apr 17 - 11:45 PM (#3848672)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The Secretary of State Rex T. said today "We have spoken enough about N. Korea. The US will have no further comment."

kinda cryptic huh? Considering a language barrier one would think the US would have some kind of clear message.

Tillerman has been briefed on the death projection scenarios depending upon the weapon system chosen. He characterized these as "tough choices".


04 Apr 17 - 11:57 PM (#3848673)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Read Raps post regarding the history. Yes it was the US who broke the treaty. History is innocently at fault in its peculiar absence. The US has many generations that have not studied the Fascist rise unless you count war movies and docs.


21 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM (#3851686)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Our secretary of State can not pronounce Korean cities, but he warns we will bomb them. Pre emptive war was what the attack on Pearl Harbor was about. It creates war. It does not disarm war.

The radioactive fall out will harm our Bering sea fisheries, Alaska and the entire west coast.

War fanatics should be pleased that China may have a response in mind.

Please give 10 seconds of silence for the half billion lives that will be incinerated or poisoned to death.


THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT iVANKA got 3 new trademarks in China.


21 Apr 17 - 01:04 PM (#3851694)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

North Korea is 2.5 miles away from South Korea. The US has quite a few military installations in S. Korea, a few of which are really close to the DMZ. S. Korea is our ally.

So radioactive fallout may harm the Bering Sea, but, depending on wind direction, it's going to fall on our military, too.

Dropping a nuke on N. Korea would be essentially like Florida dropping a nuke on Georgia.

While I'm of the opinion that Trump is unprecedentedly stupid, I don't think he's THAT stupid. Fingers crossed, anyway. It's not worth it in any way to re-ignite the Korean War with a nuke. The usual pot-shots and incursions are probably how it's going to continue, although there may be more of the incidents. And if N. Korea uses a nuke on people, I'd guess there won't be any more N. Korea for very long.


21 Apr 17 - 11:12 PM (#3851769)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

I suspect that the US, Britain, France, China, India, and Russia would do something should the DPRK be stupid and crazy enough to use nuclear weapons. Chemical weapons would also cause an international response.


22 Apr 17 - 09:30 AM (#3851856)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Unless I am mistaken we gave Pakistan breeder reactors to the chagrin of India. Pakistan and Prof. Kahn gave the bomb technology to North Korea.

Like an old western the US is acting like a cowboy who throws down a gun for NK and says "pick it up". I hope The NK dictator is not on cocaine. He might pick up the gun with drug courage.

If all this blow over Donald will take credit as the strongest President ever. If it doesn't, Donald will take credit...ibid.

In this age of distraction politics and fake facts Trump is weighing the option t shut down the government over a debt ceiling unless Congress agrees to include a provision to have Average Americans PAY FOR THE WALL.

We all know the past is not past but the future has a peculiar smell of uncertainty. I thought I smelled Freedom Fries but it stinks more like a Fascist France and America with UK tagging along.

Russia is tickled pinko.



PS
I am leaving my shocked scolding tone in the past thanks to gillymor holding up a mirror.


28 Apr 17 - 11:12 AM (#3852901)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Tillerson is in the UN security council today delivering what amounts to an ultimatum to N Korea. You already know what crap Trump said about a major major conflict absolutely...

In nuclear war there is no win, lose or draw scenario that Trump imagines will cement him as a strong President no matter what the outcome.

I often believe in the worst scenario like the time I predicted Hillary would lose. Everyone should hope I am wrong this time.


29 Apr 17 - 03:14 AM (#3852970)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Kampervan

If Trump decided to take action I don't think that he would use nuclear weapons on NK. His conventional weapons are more than capable of wiping out all of the necessary targets in NK.


29 Apr 17 - 03:43 AM (#3852972)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

The stance taken by the North Koreans needs to be looked at in its historical context. The largely American UN intervention in Korea in the Korean War led to the destruction of much of the infrastructure and a huge civilian death toll. The bombing campaign was more intense than anything seen in WW2. Le May estimated 20% of the north korean population was killed. Dean Rusk did not want to leave one brick on top of another. The use of nuclear weapons was threatened and actively sought by Le May.
It is little surprise that the north koreans would do everything in their power to prevent a repeat of what happened in the early fifties.The continual bluster needs to be replaced by both sides thrashing out a peaceful resolution. The present bluff and counter bluff could spiral out of control.


29 Apr 17 - 09:45 AM (#3853004)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Teribus

If it is historical context and fact that is required:

1: The Soviet Union started arming the North Koreans in 1947. The attack on the South instigated by North Korea, was planned in conjunction with the PRC and the USSR. The timing of the attack was timed to occur after it was announced to the world that the USSR had acquired a nuclear weapon capability.

2: "Le May estimated 20% of the north korean population was killed." - Meaningless the total number of civilian casualties,i.e. killed AND wounded numbered ~2.5 million. Population of North Korea in 1951 was 10.5 million, the population of South Korea was 21 million.

3: "The bombing campaign was more intense than anything seen in WW2." - Absolute nonsense, until the Chinese intervened ALL air strikes were tactical against military targets. Anyone trying to state that what followed eclipsed in intensity, scale and severity the strategic bombing campaigns waged against Nazi Germany and Japan between 1939 and 1945 is just simply wrong.

4: Nuclear/atomic weapons would never have been sanctioned during the Korean War due to the fact that the USSR had acquired an operational weapon of its own in 1949.

5: North Korea has been threatening a nuclear strike now for years so to say that they would do everything to prevent war is ridiculous.

6: North Korea's nuclear capability was acquired through the "Atoms for peace" scheme, they were signatories of the Nuclear NPT. They rode a coach and horses through this treaty which they never, ever meant to honour. They have reneged on every single agreement they have entered into through negotiation. They have been instrumental in aiding the proliferation of nuclear weapons technology and in missile delivery system technology to some of the most odious regimes on the planet. It is high time that they are brought to book over it.


29 Apr 17 - 09:54 AM (#3853007)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

Thanks for the "alternative facts", T. And now, back to our regularly scheduled program.


29 Apr 17 - 10:10 AM (#3853012)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Teribus

What a pity then Greg F that you cannot dispute or counter one single one of those points that you describe as being "alternative facts". In the light of that they remain as facts as presented.


30 Apr 17 - 03:55 AM (#3853071)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

Teribus.
nothing like as clear cut as you would like to make it.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015

a sanitised link.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/atomic

North Korean troops suffered illnesses several times. No proof of biological warfare was ever found (was it ever seriously looked for?)
Research was ongoing at that time into biological agents both east and west) Their use in the battlefield was certainly s strong rumour.

The casualty figures vary depending on source roughly i million deaths in the north seems to be a consensus 60%civillian40% military.


30 Apr 17 - 07:28 PM (#3853167)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: McGrath of Harlow

Perhaps the most frightening thing is that, with Trump being frustrated in pretty well all his domestic ambitions, military action overseas is the one area where he has a free hand to do just about anything.

He might well have started with a America First scenario in which the rest of the world is left alone, but domestic impotence threatens to reverse that. And we get the loose cannon to end all loose cannons rolling round the world primed and ready. With no understanding of the complexities.


30 Apr 17 - 08:19 PM (#3853173)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

With no understanding, full stop.


30 Apr 17 - 10:27 PM (#3853176)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Joe Offer

Well, I gotta say that Trump is a busy little guy. One would think that Sunday would be a slow news day, but Trump was on Face the Nation today.
Trump says he wants to leave healthcare to the states, so he can focus the nation on "bigger things":
    PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Look, because if you hurt your knee, honestly, I'd rather have the federal government focused on North Korea, focused on other things, than your knee, okay? Or than your back, as important as your back is. I would much rather see the federal government focused on other things--

    JOHN DICKERSON: Let me.

    PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: --bigger things. Now, the state is going to be in a much better position to take care, because it's smaller.
It appears that Trump is starting to feel his total failure on internal matters, and so now he's taking on "bigger things" - like maybe a little war to up his ratings, perhaps?

Since he's failed in internal matters, it looks like he's moving toward the extremist view that wants to leave all internal matters to the states and focus the federal government on waging war. Maybe he can't abolish national parks and Obamacare, but he has all sorts of tools to cripple these functions by withholding funding. And then he can go after Medicare and Social Security, so he has more money to spend on war. And war creates jobs, so a nice little war can make Trump feel like he's the success he needs to be.

It's scary.

-Joe-


01 May 17 - 10:31 AM (#3853244)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

leave all internal matters to the states

Yup sounds like a Pitchfork Ben Tillman wet dream - lets take the country right back to pre-Civil War times.

For instance, "The States" - particularly the Southern ones- did a bang-up job of protecting Civil Rights from 1865 to about 1975, didn't they?


05 May 17 - 04:46 PM (#3853441)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Trump called Putin who told Donnie to cool it over Korea.
All is well again unless the 25th amendment is implemented.
(insert BOB emoticon here)

Believe Trump
Obey Putin
Buy Ivanka


08 Aug 17 - 05:24 PM (#3870621)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

We will respond with fire and fury the likes of which the world has never seen
DT quote today regarding NK

is he telegraphing BS or war?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/world/asia/north-korea-un-sanctions-nuclear-missile-united-nations.html


08 Aug 17 - 08:18 PM (#3870650)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

This is not an existential crises but we are dealing with egotist super idiots. War is what weak thin-skinned leaders in a bubble do.
This may have been my inscrutable fear earlier. Cataclysm .


08 Aug 17 - 10:28 PM (#3870662)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

The Korean War actually never ended. And should the DPRK attack the US, I believe that there would be a declaration of war so fast you're not going to believe it: Congress actually working together. But that's not necessary, as Congress gave the President the authority to launch a retaliatory strike back in the '50s.


09 Aug 17 - 12:13 AM (#3870667)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Acme

Someone is going to have to literally tackle Trump one of these days to keep him from going off half-cocked and starting a war. And that individual will have to trust that whoever is the next president will pardon them. I'm really hoping it's one of the women in the House or Senate, wearing stilettos for the occasion, who puts a hole through his foot before taking out the family jewels with a knee. Seriously, he's that dense that it's going to take a physical intervention.


09 Aug 17 - 03:28 AM (#3870679)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

Is there not a certain grim irony in a nuclear power with a leadership as belligerent and unstable as the Trump administration's, a power that conducted a war against Third World peasants for seven years by pouring burning petrol on them and spraying them with carcinogenic chemicals - the only state that has ever used weapons of mass destruction on two cities of non-combatant civilians - telling another State that it is not to be trusted with nuclear weapons?
The warning bells on the proliferation of Nuclear weaponry should have been heeded when it was revealed that, in 1975, one extremist state attempted to arm another, Apartheid South Africa with these WMD
Nobody is to be trusted with them and if The U.S. has them, there is no argument against why any nation capable of manufacturing them shouldn't have the right to defend itself.
Wake-up time down West, I think!
Jim Carroll


09 Aug 17 - 04:55 AM (#3870687)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

The U.S. has them, there is no argument against why any nation capable of manufacturing them shouldn't have the right to defend itself.

Does it have the need to defend itself.
No-one has tried to attack NK since the ceasefire, and no-one has even threatened to.
If anyone did, NK has the ability with conventional weapons to utterly destroy the capital city of SK. That should be a sufficient deterrent.

NK has threatened to attack US and is thought capable of nuclear strikes against West Coast cities and maybe as far inland as Chicago.

You are completely safe in Ireland though Jim.


09 Aug 17 - 05:42 AM (#3870692)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"You are completely safe in Ireland though Jim."
Are we
Not too long ago, the US was shipping suspects through our airport, thirty miles from here in order for them to be waterboarded in Guantanamo
When will you twots realise that nobody is safe from nuclear weapons.
"NK has threatened to attack US "
And the US has threatened t attack NK - two Nuclear nutters facilitated going head-to-head - just what an already unstable world wants right now
The U.S. has always been a treat to world peace when it comes to nations who don't "do it my way"
Jim Carroll


09 Aug 17 - 06:06 AM (#3870695)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

I just hope there's a substantial buffer between our nutbag, megalomaniacal president and the nuclear codes, with or without stiletto heels.


09 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM (#3870698)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

The US President threatened to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders on TV last night. That is how fucked the world has become.

That a person could be so idiotic, flippant and matter-of-fact about visiting such unimaginable suffering on people is beyond comprehension. Two fat bastards shouting at each other like spoilt, attention-seeking children in the school playground. They are both contemptible, Trump the more so because his lack of intelligence and nuance means he's little more than a corporate bully that is way out of his depth, unfit and unable even to comprehend his awesome responsibilities. It's only ever been about him, as it is with Kim.

Remember: The host of a reality game show just threatened to burn the children of North Korea in a thermonuclear strike of "fire and fury". The capitalist lunatics have taken over the asylum.


09 Aug 17 - 06:32 AM (#3870702)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The strategic use of nuclear weapons is based on speed and decisiveness, not delay or debate of the decision of the executive commander and chief.

Trump's phrase 'like the world has never seen' was used 15 minutes earlier regarding the opioid crises. I conclude the fire and fury remark was off the cuff.

My cartoon today is Scaramucci the 'fired' and Bannon the 'furry' meeting Kim Yun Un .


09 Aug 17 - 06:47 AM (#3870704)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

I have later learned the phrase fire and fury in which the world has never seen, was first used word for word by President Truman.

Coincidence? I do not know.


09 Aug 17 - 06:58 AM (#3870708)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

It sounds like the kind of rhetoric you'd hear from the late Saddam Hussein or some other tin pot dictator, delivered while safely ensconced in his New Jersey country club.


09 Aug 17 - 07:06 AM (#3870709)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"I just hope there's a substantial buffer between our nutbag, megalomaniacal president and the nuclear codes, with or without stiletto heels."
I believe he's committed to tweeting a four minute warning before he presses the button
Jim Carroll


09 Aug 17 - 08:30 AM (#3870725)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Is NK a serious threat to the inhabitants of SK, Japan and US, or not?
Should we take seriously NK's threat to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders?

What should Trump do to best protect the people of SK Japan and US?
Nothing tried so far has succeeded in reining in NK's threats or their increasing capability to carry them out.


09 Aug 17 - 08:42 AM (#3870727)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

It's only a "war of words" chaps, in the hope of effecting some dialogue.

Remember what happened to Saddam and Col Gaddafi when they rolled over for the West, their respective countries are now lawless wastelands, their people leaving in droves.....if they can afford to leave at all.

Jaw Jaw   is better than cold war.....or hot war.

The problems of the political world need addressing, Islamic terrorism, rogue states, détente between the new economies and the old, Donal John seems to be willing to address these problems.


09 Aug 17 - 08:48 AM (#3870728)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

NOKO is the bark of the Chinese dog.

In this war of words China will measure carefully what they will or will not say for themselves. The Trump admin will not.

China will not bite unless they suffer injury of any kind.

Prease excuse my Asian voice.


09 Aug 17 - 09:44 AM (#3870743)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

China will not stand by if the DPRK is attacked or if another country is attacked by the DPRK. China is into making money and if the ROK is attacked, well, the ROK was good for USD $90.1B imports from China in 2015, and the ROK exported USD $131B to China that year.

On the other hand, the DPRK imported USD $2.34B from China and exported USD $2.95B to China in 2015. (My source is http://atlas.media.mit.edu.)

Fraternal Marxist bonds be damned, China isn't going to lose a USD $88B market because of some lunatic kid...and that kid only remains in power because China wants the DPRK as a buffer state. Should that kid become too much of an international nuisance or start a war (fergawdsake!), well, there are more tractable people available.


09 Aug 17 - 09:48 AM (#3870745)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

China will not bite unless it suffers injury of ANY kind. $ or ruin.


09 Aug 17 - 10:39 AM (#3870748)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

There's a great deal of what Cina or North Korea Korea will or won't do - not a great deal about what our own Governments will or should be doing
They are the ones supposedly answerable to us and, when push comes to shove, we are the ones committed to demanding what they should be doing in our name
The problem with "wars of words" where self-serving nutters are concerned is getting them to distinguish between the words and the real thing
Must dig up that copy of Dr STRANGELOVE ' again
Jim Carroll


09 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM (#3870749)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

not a great deal about what our own Governments will or should be doing

I asked the question, "what should they be doing."
Any suggestions?
Obviously not the same as they have been doing because that has just made the situation worse.
They need to try a new approach, but what?


09 Aug 17 - 11:37 AM (#3870756)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

I was stationed in S Korea twice. The saber-rattling is something that happened all the time. The missiles & nukes are new.
IF they fire on someone, we ought to unload every conventional weapon we have on them, preferably military targets. I know the average people have no control over him, but they don't seem to want any, and Kim is a threat to other countries.

Whatever happens, it's going to affect S. Korea and to some extent, China. It would be good to end the Korean war, but it would be better to do it by wielding diplomats and not weapons.
...and the way to start is to get Trump to shut the hell up.


09 Aug 17 - 11:45 AM (#3870757)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

get Trump to shut the hell up.

Not a snowball's chance....


09 Aug 17 - 11:58 AM (#3870760)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

"Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu - PM
Date: 09 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

The US President threatened to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders on TV last night. That is how fucked the world has become.

That a person could be so idiotic, flippant and matter-of-fact about visiting such unimaginable suffering on people is beyond comprehension. Two fat bastards shouting at each other like spoilt, attention-seeking children in the school playground. They are both contemptible, Trump the more so because his lack of intelligence and nuance means he's little more than a corporate bully that is way out of his depth, unfit and unable even to comprehend his awesome responsibilities. It's only ever been about him, as it is with Kim.

Remember: The host of a reality game show just threatened to burn the children of North Korea in a thermonuclear strike of "fire and fury". The capitalist lunatics have taken over the asylum."


Amen.


09 Aug 17 - 12:08 PM (#3870763)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"I asked the question, "what should they be doing."
Perhaps removing their noses from Trump's arse might be a good start
I seem to remember that it was the late (politically) Theresa Mayfly who was the first to skate across the Pond to kiss the newly elected fundament, quickly joined by all the other self-serving suck-holes
Another fine mess they all got us into.
I'm sure that's not the answer you were seeking
Jim Carroll


09 Aug 17 - 12:14 PM (#3870764)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

spot on Backwoodsman

This is why I said back in May, "this is not a good time to buy a Hyundai".


09 Aug 17 - 12:39 PM (#3870766)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Earlier I had a profound foreboding before Trump opened his bellicose mouth and I posted "I have an inscrutable fear of the next ism. I do not think it will come from the people but instead promoted as the next snake oil cure."

I only vaguely pick up on what enormous numbers of people are thinking simultaneously even if it is the near future. I do not believe that is psychic but rather just sensing the human wavelength in the flexibility of time.

My next great prediction... The Earth will get hotter :^?


09 Aug 17 - 07:33 PM (#3870809)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

"The US President threatened to slaughter millions of innocent people who have zero control over the actions of their leaders on TV last night. That is how fucked the world has become."

I should like to commend this as Mudcat Sentence (or two) Of The Month. Even though I never swear like that here!

I see a massive country rattling its high-tech nuclear sabres at another country rattling it's totally low-tech ramshackle sabres. And in the wings we have a rather stern massive China, staring fiercely at both, (nuclear) arms akimbo. Standoffs look so dramatic and they make really good Hollywood. But the whole bloody thing is so puerile. Most wars, hot or cold, are fought between good guys and bad guys. This one is utter twats vs utter twats. One side may well be more utter than the other, but that's up to you to decide.


10 Aug 17 - 03:07 AM (#3870831)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

If The Ginger Tosser can actually read, he might like to study This article and learn something.


10 Aug 17 - 04:53 AM (#3870844)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Another fine mess they all got us into.

"They" did not create the regime in NK.
If NK regime are "utter twats" they were utter twats under previous administrations, but not dealt with by them.
The can was just kicked down the road, and here we are.

NK developed ICBMs and nuclear warheads faster than anyone believed possible, under the previous US administration.

You may disagree with Trump's methods but his predecessors got us into this mess not him.

Something new and different has to be tried.

Trump and Obama responded very differently to Assad's use of chemical weapons. Obama's response failed to stop them doing it again.


10 Aug 17 - 04:58 AM (#3870845)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

From Backwoodsman's link, concluding sentence.

" The central aim of our strategy should be to foster conditions that enable this natural, internal process to move faster, while preparing ourselves, our allies and the North Korean people for the challenges we will face when change comes. "

We do not have the luxury of a long term strategy.
It could kick off next week.


10 Aug 17 - 06:01 AM (#3870850)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"If NK regime are "utter twats" they were utter twats under previous administrations, "
The deformed nature of North Korean society is a direct result of a genocidal war carried out by the west which left that part of the world a smouldering ruin and many of its people reduced to living in caves.
The American and British administrations were directly responsible for that war.
Jim Carroll


10 Aug 17 - 06:24 AM (#3870852)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"I know the average people have no control over him, but they don't seem to want any"

Huh? So it's OK is they die in a US strike then? Do you understand the conditions these people live under? They are victims of an extremely brutal totalitarian regime, and they don't have a choice. You think they choose to live like that? Jesus.

"Something new and different has to be tried."

Perhaps, but shouting your mouth off like a drunken idiot man-baby isn't the way forward; this moron doesn't know that real life isn't like his telly show. All Trump is doing is playing into Kim's hands and creating an atmosphere of fear and tension around the world in which simple mistakes, misunderstandings and misinterpretations could become the trigger for a nuclear war.

If Kim fires his missiles at the seas around Guam and the US acts with force then all bets are off, and the world has a two fat cock-waving narcissist imbeciles intent on showing the world which one is the biggest poltroon whilst millions die and suffer. Trump is too much of a sad alpha male NOT to react with force, one can but hope his hand is stayed by saner voices advising him.

Containment isn't ideal, but keeping the peace is paramount and this week the whole of the UN voted in new sanctions including China and Russia, no small feat in that talking shop. China is the key to keeping Pyongyang in line and they must be encouraged to help in this matter, using peaceful methods such as political pressure. Of course this sort of understanding is beyond the Pussy-Grabber-in-Chief and he's spent part of his incumbency pissing off the Chinese; not a bad thing in some ways, but Trump's lack of subtlety and total gobshiteness leaves little room for manoeuvre when trouble occurs and a different approach is needed.

Trump thinks that the US waving it's huge bollocks and a semi-automatic at the world whilst chanting "USA! USA! USA! look at our huge balls and despair" is the answer to any disagreement with an enemy... as we know, that hasn't worked out so well in the past and it won't again.

Especially for the ordinary folk. It's they who will die horribly, and they don't deserve it.


10 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM (#3870854)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Joe Offer

It seems to me that Rex Tillerson is doing a reasonably good job of counterbalancing the rash statements coming from Trump. There are some decent people in the Trump Adminstration, despite their conservativsm. But what they're doing most of the time, is damage control after their boss spews his tweets.

-Joe-


10 Aug 17 - 07:58 AM (#3870856)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

People of Earth have narrowly avoided the accidental release of nuclear weapons dozens of times, excluding the intentional test detonations under water, below and above ground, above the Stratosphere and the two deliberately dropped on Japan. In all its over 300 detonations.

When it comes to reasons for using nukes, verbal insults would be a first.


10 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM (#3870861)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

We'd be much better served by a S.o.S with some diplomatic experience. This is no time for on the job training, plus Tillerson is being handcuffed by President Bannon/Trump who is trying to gut the State Department by underfunding it and understaffing it so, presumably, they can handle foreign affairs from the White House (via tweets and nasty rhetoric). Old hands from the Department will tell you that most of the critical diplomatic work is done by officials below the cabinet level but President B/T hasn't seen fit to fill many of those posts. This crisis is of Trump's making and the only solution is for him to back off (or ideally resign), throw out Bannon and get a competent Secretary of State and create a healthy and vigorous diplomatic corp. Of course, not much chance of all that happening.


10 Aug 17 - 09:31 AM (#3870868)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

There is no more State Department. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-state-department-positions_us_58e3e8bee4b0f4a923b2ba5e At least not much of it is left.

We do not even have an ambassador in Pyongyang

Who will win the race; Mueller to impeachment or Trump to war?

Where is the CIA pristine bullet strategy when we need one?

The US is downwind from a Korean Nuclear war.
The deadly fallout would effect the Bering Sea to Hawaii, unless neutron bomb air bursts are used. Fallout from Fusion bombs would be measurable world wide. Across America the 'milk people' would not be happy with their Strontium 90 milk.

One good thing could be the drop in the price in property values all along the west coast cities

The new immigrants, refugees and aliens will be Trump voters unless they built their bunker, just until the radiation blows over.

But we can all sleep well.


10 Aug 17 - 09:35 AM (#3870869)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Rapparee

It's very easy for those in the UK and all those who are out of range of DPRK missiles, to bandy charges and statements back and forth.

I'm not, and I get the feelings I had during the '50s and '60s, during the Cuban Missile Crisis and an overwhelming feeling of deja vu.


10 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM (#3870871)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

Not quite, Rap - during the Cuban Missile Crisis we had an intelligent human being in the White House and and a cabinet of qualified individuals instead of a deranged five-year-old and a gang of unqualified plutocrats.


10 Aug 17 - 10:14 AM (#3870873)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

So what should the "ginger twat" do about a mad dictator with nuclear armed ICBMs that can reach US and who keeps saying he is going to use them?

The only suggestion so far was in Backwoodsman's link, which was to hope that there might be a coup in NK some time soon!
Anyone holding their breath for that happening?

Trump only inherited this long standing problem a few months ago.
What did previous administrations do about it?
Any lessons from them?


10 Aug 17 - 10:17 AM (#3870875)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

Nice try, Prof- but no thanks.


10 Aug 17 - 10:22 AM (#3870876)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

What am I supposed to be trying Greg, and what are you not thanking me for?
Does anyone know what Greg is saying?

Any statement in my post that you challenge Greg?
Any answers to the questions I posed?
Anything actually relevant to say at all Greg?


10 Aug 17 - 10:27 AM (#3870877)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Keith, instead of playing the Grand Inquisitor do your own research. U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy, the orange buffoon has chosen to vitiate the American diplomatic corp, apparently with no resistance from his SoS and this policy has brought us to crisis stage in a very short time. We have a dangerously incompetent lunatic in the White House whose being advised by 2 dangerous extremists in Bannon and Miller. Figure it our for yourself.


10 Aug 17 - 10:43 AM (#3870878)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Successful Brinkmanship is not determined by intelligence. It relies on luck. imho

btw fallout is the least of the problems with nuclear war.

N Korea does not have H bombs so their devices will be dirty.

America has three different kinds of bombs, fission, fusion and neutron. A fourth kind is theoretical.

H bombs can destroy some bunkers while neutron bombs only kill life and leaves structures intact but aged.

Which dogs of war would Trump release?


10 Aug 17 - 11:54 AM (#3870883)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"It's very easy for those in the UK and all those who are out of range of DPRK missiles, to bandy charges and statements back and forth."

Rap, here in the UK we lived under the dark shadow of nuclear war through the 70s and 80s, pretty much up to the fall of the Berlin Wall. The threat from the USSR was very, very real and very close to us. We had frequent testing of the air raid sirens (chilling, never got used to them) and there were public safety films that told us what to do in the even of an attack. Does the 'Four Minute Warning' mean anything too you?

Most of your country isn't in range of these missiles, there are no nuclear warheads yet and even then strikes would be very limited as NK doesn't have the capacity to mount a large-scale nuclear attack. On the other hand, if the USSR had attacked us during the cold war us and Europe would have been utterly devastated and rendered uninhabitable. Why do you think so many people in Europe were alarmed when Regan got into power? It wasn't the US that would be subject to pre-emptive strikes had the tanks rolled across the border... it would have been us.

Scary times we hoped we'd seen the last of. Big cultural impact too.

The Fun Boy Three tell it as was.


10 Aug 17 - 12:16 PM (#3870888)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

We had the films and the drills in the US, too, although they stopped a long time ago. If you've been keeping up with the news, you know that N Korea does have missiles capable of reaching the US. I don't know why we wouldn't have enough warning to shoot them down before they get here.

I do believe that if N Korea launched a missile armed with a nuke warhead at us, it would likely be the last one. It would be a gesture of defiance, because they don't have a lot of them, and because the crazy man in the White House would likely obliterate them, regardless of who else would be affected.


10 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM (#3870889)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The climate of the Cuban missile crisis was much more intense since most people knew of military units called to action. I remember walking around the block on a warm early evening and hearing the news from a few TV's but there were many people watching Mr. Ed as well.

I had a dream of WWIII that is still crystal clear in my mind. The four minute warning consisted of people looking out their front door and blaming each other until everything went white.

But catch your breath, we are not there.


10 Aug 17 - 02:29 PM (#3870903)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The damage from the H bomb comes from the immense pressures and heat.
But its a dry heat :^/


10 Aug 17 - 02:46 PM (#3870906)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Kinda like West Texas in August but not as bad.


10 Aug 17 - 02:56 PM (#3870908)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

But catch your breath, we are not there.

Yet. All we are saying, is give Trump a chance.

But no problam anyway - just duck under your desk & cover your head with your hands. Easy.


10 Aug 17 - 04:14 PM (#3870918)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

"The only suggestion so far was in Backwoodsman's link, which was to hope that there might be a coup in NK some time soon!
Anyone holding their breath for that happening?"


As you find a perfectly sane and responsible suggestion from an experienced statesman so amusing, instead of trying to provoke others into making suggestions which you can then peck away at them over ad nauseam, how about enlightening us all with your recommendation for a solution to the problem of NK v. Everybody Else?


10 Aug 17 - 05:01 PM (#3870919)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad

U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy

Er, not exactly.........in 2003 North Korea withdrew from the NPT, which it had acceded to in 1985, when they were discovered to be illegally enriching uranium. Since then they have developed nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles in defiance of UN Security Council resolutions 1718, 1874, 2087, 2094, 2270, 2321 and 2371 which brings us to the present situation.


10 Aug 17 - 05:04 PM (#3870920)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Big Al Whittle

Poem

Kim Yong Un
Was fond of a bun.
He bloody nearly
Weighed a ton.
Poor Kim ! his life was tedious circuits
Of eating buns and silly haircuts.
he said, i've built a bomb
i've built a rocket
And its been fun, i wouldn't knock it.
but what would be enormous fun
would be meeting a really special someone
just like me - a great bullshitter!
I wonder if there's one on Twitter.


10 Aug 17 - 05:20 PM (#3870921)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Bobad, the situation I was referring to was another shooting war on the peninsula but your point is well taken, the stakes have risen. All the more reason to leave it to experienced professionals and not some egomaniacal, dick-wagging tweeter.


10 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM (#3870922)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

that's the spirit Al

I too think Kim loves playing the bad little boy for real and by pretending.

He warned of surrounding Guam with fire but not Guam itself.
If we respond with full wrath after a 'near but not at Guam' attack Korea will have played the US like we played the Japanese diplomats before Pearl Harbor. Korea would say the US did a first surprise attack on Korea.

Bad little boys love to complain "but I didn't do anything" The missiles were not even loaded and were in International waters.


10 Aug 17 - 06:17 PM (#3870926)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

You can't have "another shooting war" when the first hasn't ended.
#1 is still, technically, going on. This escalation was, IMO, bound to happen eventually.


10 Aug 17 - 09:15 PM (#3870945)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The more people who believe nuclear war is inevitable the more likely it will become.
I have met people so downtrodden/victimized that a vengeful desire to blow it all up is a normal blind impulse.
This however is not what Jeri was saying.


If Trump had a different war to pursue with better profitability he would. Any war will do to cement his authority/dictatorship to supersede investigations.

Unconfirmed, unsubstantiated claims that NPRK has miniaturized nukes is by just one agency on their own, is what this brouhaha is based on.
This intel desk got this wrong before.

The master of lies and fake news simply may be having a go at our expense.

Since when has Trump given full credibility and respect to any single intel agency???


10 Aug 17 - 09:43 PM (#3870948)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

Somebody else is watching Rachael! (I've actually been in the DIA building.)

No, I didn't mean a nuclear war was inevitable. NK dicks around on the DMZ all the time. I didn't think anything would improve there unless it got bad enough for people to try to make it better.


11 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM (#3870963)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

gillymore,
U.S. presidents have been keeping this situation in check for 60 years through diplomacy,

No they have not.
The situation has not been "in check." An insane dictator has been given free rein to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them.
Clinton considered striking his nuclear sites back when they were still vulnerable, but chose not to.

Backwoodsman,
As you find a perfectly sane and responsible suggestion from an experienced statesman so amusing,

No. It is indeed a sane and responsible suggestion to hope for and work towards the current Kim being deposed, but as I said that is long term and we are now faced with an imminent and urgent crisis.
I am sure that has been the strategy in recent years anyway, but so far it has failed miserably.

So now it falls to Trump to do something, and it has to be something different.
He may fuck up completely, but his predecessors all failed and so here we are.


11 Aug 17 - 05:09 AM (#3870966)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

An insane dictator has been given free rein to develop nuclear weapons and missiles to deliver them.

Donald Trump?

DtG


11 Aug 17 - 05:38 AM (#3870970)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

If anything serious does arise from the present situation it will at least put to rest the comment by Rear Admiral Gene R Larocque (ret) regarding the major location of WW3


11 Aug 17 - 06:03 AM (#3870974)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

Instead of mocking those that supposedly have their fingers on the trigger for nuclear war, perhaps the deficiencies of the fail safe systems should be looked at.
I wonder how many times we have been at the brink of nuclear war.
Was there not a wargames tape played for realtime once upon a time?
You can be sure many incidents have been buried.

https://futureoflife.org/background/nuclear-close-calls-a-timeline/


11 Aug 17 - 06:19 AM (#3870977)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Donald Trump?"
George W Bush, Ronald Regan, Richard Nixon..... how far do you wanna go back?
Maybe instaif of looking at "fail safe systems" it's time the validity of these Weapons of Mass Destruction are questioned.
It's more than a little ludicrous that invasions can be launched against those suspected of possessing the wherewithal to manufacture such weapons by countries who have proved they cannot be trusted with them but, in one particular case, have actually used them on civilians.
Memo - must buy a new battery for my DOOMSDAY CLOCK
Jim Carroll


11 Aug 17 - 07:07 AM (#3870985)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

It's a mad mad mad mad world in which we can say to a country, you can't have what I've got, when the person saying it is Donald Trump and when he won't also say it to Bibi.


11 Aug 17 - 07:53 AM (#3870989)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

Maybe instaif of looking at "fail safe systems" it's time the validity of these Weapons of Mass Destruction are questioned.

you have some mechanism in mind for putting the genie back in the bottle?
It exists therefore it is. Validity is hardly a part of the equation.


11 Aug 17 - 08:13 AM (#3870990)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Its not time for bunkers to be locked and you get loaded but Trump triple dog dared KIM that the US military is locked and loaded.
Donald just had to tweet that the fire and fury comment was not worded strongly enough.

In the fog of war something is certain to go wrong.
"If you want some new songs about WWIII you better write them now"
Tom Lehrer

El Douche' will put his hands on his hips and grin if Kim does not send missiles over Japan into the sea 22 miles from Guam. That will be Donnie's only victory.
Kim will still want to dare Trump back. If it is done with words things may cool.


11 Aug 17 - 09:09 AM (#3870998)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Locked, loaded and looney. Twit is playing chicken with a fellow unpredictable nutbag in Kim, and those dark men behind him, and with his further tough talk he's alienating the country whose intervention may be the only real way out of this, China. It's past time to get him out of there and get some serious people back in charge.


11 Aug 17 - 09:42 AM (#3871007)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"you have some mechanism in mind for putting the genie back in the bottle?"
The question of international co-operation has always been and remains the only workable answer
If our leaders are not going to co-operate than we have no future - simple as that.
Not easy, but situations like this underline the need to start somewhere
Jim Carroll


11 Aug 17 - 09:56 AM (#3871010)
Subject: RE: BS: ???? ??? ????
From: Donuel

Does the power, ingenuity and size of the military industrial complex NOT have the power to stop, shut down, deny service, block or divert Twitter for even a little while????

Pre-emptive Nuclear War by Twitter from a resort golf course, dog leg left, par 4, 6th hole is a scenario not even Kurt Vonnegut could have imagined. Lets hope Trump does not become stymied, angry and frustrated by the right front sand trap or left bunker and god forbid unleash hell in a vengeful anguished tantrum.


11 Aug 17 - 10:19 AM (#3871013)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

Does the power, ingenuity and size of the military industrial complex NOT have the power to stop, shut down, deny service, block or divert Twitter for even a little while????

Some would argue these same people have managed to lame his Presidency and therefore are calling all the shots. What price your democracy now?


11 Aug 17 - 10:27 AM (#3871017)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

BOOM !! 100


11 Aug 17 - 10:40 AM (#3871020)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Yup
The guy lames himself with the exception of a guaranteed 23% of the population that hears only what they want. They are the same folks you can fool all of the time.

We are now experiencing an "Opium War". China had theirs now we have our Opioid War. Guess what, the Fentanyl that does most of the killing of Americans (Thousands per month) comes from China. They have long memories. Deliberate? naah, its probably just a way to make a buck.


11 Aug 17 - 10:50 AM (#3871021)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"Some would argue these same people have managed to lame his Presidency and therefore are calling all the shots."

Based on what actual evidence?


11 Aug 17 - 10:59 AM (#3871024)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Golf imitates life, at least it seems to for Dr. Strangetrump.


11 Aug 17 - 11:27 AM (#3871030)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Iains

"Some would argue these same people have managed to lame his Presidency and therefore are calling all the shots."

Based on what actual evidence?

You have to be joking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


11 Aug 17 - 12:17 PM (#3871031)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Re. China.
Kim's missiles are mobile and hidden from possible attack because they are mounted on trucks.
Chinese trucks.
China also supplied all his air defence systems and all his conventional weapons.

China has allowed NK to develop its nuclear capability over many years and has actually undermined earlier sanctions.

Do not put too much faith in China doing much to help.


11 Aug 17 - 12:21 PM (#3871033)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

""Some would argue these same people have managed to lame his Presidency and therefore are calling all the shots."
Annd far more would say thta Trump id not fit to govern, let alone have his finger on the nuclear button
Please do not confuse the populism that gave us Trump and Brexit with democracy
Jim Carroll


11 Aug 17 - 12:24 PM (#3871034)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Chinese trucks."
If Britain and America an sell weapons to the monsters they have (and continue to do) we have little elbow-room to point fingers
Jim Carroll


11 Aug 17 - 12:31 PM (#3871036)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

"It's past time to get him out of there and get some serious people back in charge. "

Oh Yea? Now who would those serious people be? Let me think......Mr President Bush? Mr President Obama? Madam Secretary Clinton?

Look what a fine job they made of the Middle East and North Africa, every country they touched, a beacon of light, peace and good order.

People just longing for some democracy and freedom.....they are coming to get it in droves.....and they are quite happy to take yours.


11 Aug 17 - 12:35 PM (#3871038)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

China can pull the plug on NK anytime they want to, IF they want to.


11 Aug 17 - 12:40 PM (#3871039)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

It's past time to get him out of there and get some serious people back in charge.

Those same people who allowed this to happen?
Trump has only been in charge for a few months.

Jeri is the only one of us who has real knowledge of this.
Heed what she says.
"This escalation was, IMO, bound to happen eventually."

They all knew that and what did they do to stop it?


11 Aug 17 - 12:54 PM (#3871041)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Heed whoever you want to, Keith. 60 plus years of a non-shooting war (with occasional flare-ups) and 200 days of Twitler and his loudmouthed, braggadocio (calculated to titillate the dimwits who voted for him as he's never gotten out of campaign mode and realized he's the president of the entire U.S.A.) and he's brought us to the brink of a nuclear confrontation. Do the math.


11 Aug 17 - 01:42 PM (#3871047)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Need to know status has more layers than an onion. And each layer is smaller.

gillymor knows far more than gil lets on and makes me self conscious that this understanding of what I say cryptically is literally understood by anyone.(you even know Trump's golf game?) I have a habit of knowing more than I possibly could or should which is poorly understood and causes trouble. I don't think my trouble is the issue anymore. We have talk of another Crimson Tide mutiny with unknowable split second outcomes. This is the first man made crisis of the Trump presidency. Do we have a Denzel Washington to the complicated rescue?

I don't know.

When or if I do I'll say my piece. It feels strangely opaque for now.
More people need to hold Peace in their mind compared to the WWW Slam folks. The morbidly curious secretly long for things not in their best interest as usual.


11 Aug 17 - 02:02 PM (#3871050)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

he's brought us to the brink of a nuclear confrontation. Do the math.

NK would be launching its missiles and threatening its neighbours whoever was US president.
Previous presidents have utterly failed to prevent the inevitable consequence of allowing them to develop nuclear weapons and ICBM missiles, and you can not blame Trump for any of it.


11 Aug 17 - 02:30 PM (#3871054)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Of course I can, Keith. I already did and will continue to do so.


11 Aug 17 - 04:08 PM (#3871072)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Of course you CAN, but you automatically lose any credibility in the process.


11 Aug 17 - 04:34 PM (#3871074)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad

he's brought us to the brink of a nuclear confrontation. Do the math.

From the news reports I have read NK is reacting to the sanctions imposed on it, by unanimous agreement of all fifteen United Nations Security Council members, for its repeated defiance of a ban on testing missiles and nuclear bombs. I would say that it is Kim who is bringing the world to the brink of nuclear confrontation.


11 Aug 17 - 05:13 PM (#3871075)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

Oh well, as we're vaporising it'll be a comforting thought that it wasn't The Ginger Tosser's fault, won't it?


11 Aug 17 - 06:15 PM (#3871086)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Trump has walked back his comments after his tweet about Kim uttering anything belligerent will be met by force, by lying about what he tweeted.
Trump announced his second press conference of his term for this coming Monday. Water is seeking its normal level again.

which reminds me 2016 is yet again the hottest year on record
http://www.climatecentral.org/gallery/graphics/10-hottest-years-on-record


11 Aug 17 - 06:32 PM (#3871089)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

btw It is McMaster who has played a role in the Crimson Tide scenario.
He is a likely deep state speaker who has been a leaker in these crazy weeks or
not !?


11 Aug 17 - 06:39 PM (#3871091)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Here is the entire post of 12:54 P.M. today to give the statement that Keith and Bo disagree with some context:

"Heed whoever you want to, Keith. 60 plus years of a non-shooting war (with occasional flare-ups) and 200 days of Twitler and his loudmouthed, braggadocio (calculated to titillate the dimwits who voted for him as he's never gotten out of campaign mode and realized he's the president of the entire U.S.A.) and he's brought us to the brink of a nuclear confrontation. Do the math."

If the world gets out of this situation that Twit has amped up with his tough guy talk unscathed, it will be in spite of him not because of him. He is clearly insane and uniquely unqualified to be POTUS.
Have a good weekend, all.


11 Aug 17 - 06:59 PM (#3871093)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

Keith is scrabbling desperately around for a voice now that his hobbyhorse threads have gone with the wind. He has already trolled on the innocent hedgerow thread. And now he's employing his usual despicable tactics here. The best thing is to ignore him. Jesus, I'm trying.


11 Aug 17 - 08:00 PM (#3871097)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad

Yes gilly, Trump has definitely ramped it up but he did not instigate it, you've got to give credit where it's due ie. to that other clearly insane and uniquely unqualified "leader" of his country.


11 Aug 17 - 08:06 PM (#3871099)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Bo, I will agree that in many respects they are two peas in a pod.


11 Aug 17 - 08:13 PM (#3871101)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"..Mr President Bush? Mr President Obama? Madam Secretary Clinton?"
You gave an excuse for supporting this scumbag in the White House the suggestion that if Clinton was elected she would bring the world to the point of war
Now where are we exactly?
A rogue state such as North Korea is a problem - throw a n arrogantly belligerent thug with no negotiating skills and no political experience and you have a potential nuclear disaster
Jim Carroll


11 Aug 17 - 08:23 PM (#3871104)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

The fact that previous presidents have decided not to throw a firecracker into a room full of kerosene is a GOOD thing. Failing to engage with a madman when there can be no good outcome is a good thing. My statement on the inevitability of escalation was due to cynicism, and the belief that sooner or later, some idiot was going to light fuse.

Trump is backing off, but not before showing the rest of the world how unstable he is... in case they hadn't noticed previously.


11 Aug 17 - 10:04 PM (#3871114)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

"If I find in Sodom fifty righteous people within the city, then I will spare the whole place from fire and ashes on their account."
thus spoke the Lard

It looks like we have a buffer against Trump Bannon in the hundreds.
They just take their time. whew

Trump should just attack Grenada like Reagan did if he needs a decisive victory.


12 Aug 17 - 05:30 AM (#3871135)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

NK is threatening nuclear destruction on American people while demonstrating his capability to do it.

That required a response. Any president would have had to respond.
What exactly should Trump have done differently, and what tactics have previously been successful in reining in the current Kim in his aggressive pursuit of nuclear capability?

Steve's last post was an unprovoked personal attack with no single reference to the issue under discussion.

I think it should be removed.


12 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM (#3871136)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

This letter in The Irish Times this morning sums up the siituation quite well, as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Trump and North Korea's war of words        
Sir, I agree with your Editorial (August 10th) regarding of the dangerous war of words between Donald Trump and id North Korea. But missing from recent discussions is a sense of why North Korea became this way in the first place, North Korean leaders developed their paranoid world view in the wake of the devastation of the Korean war, when the United States carpet-bombed the North.        
Its leaders subsequently developed a bunker mentality, vowing never again to be such a to target.
In recent years, the North Koreans developed nuclear weapons to ensure their country's survival and to demonstrate its own military strength.
Political dialogue and diplomacy must be pursued in order to help resolve deep-seated political issues. President Trump and his allies may condemn the regime, but they must try to understand North Korea's perspective in order to engage in meaningful diplomacy.-Yours, etc,        
RICHARD COFFEY,        
Terenure,        
Dublin 6W.


12 Aug 17 - 05:34 AM (#3871138)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

"Failing to engage with a madman when there can be no good outcome is a good thing"

As some of us are learning in microcosm on this forum, grindingly slowly. 😉

"thus spoke the Lard"

Sounds like a slippery customer...


12 Aug 17 - 05:42 AM (#3871139)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

I am a servant of the lard :-)

Amen to the failing to engage with a madman sentiment on all levels!

DtG


12 Aug 17 - 06:21 AM (#3871143)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

Well at least the usual crowd here seem to be learning...


12 Aug 17 - 06:37 AM (#3871148)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Some of us, BWM, some of us.

:D tG


12 Aug 17 - 07:00 AM (#3871152)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

I get that most here hate Trump, and for good reason.

This situation with NK has been obvious, inevitable and brewing for years.
None of it on Trump's watch.

You have a crazed dictator threatening nuclear destruction on ordinary American people, and demonstrating his capability of delivering it.

Trump has threatened retaliation or maybe a pre-emptive strike.
A bit like Kennedy did over the Cuban missiles.
What do you imagine Hilary would have done?
What should be done?

Slagging off Trump is easy, but how should he deal with the real and serious threat of many thousands of American people killed.


12 Aug 17 - 07:08 AM (#3871153)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Why do you people come here if you don't wish to contribute to the threads?
If opposing voices are not heard the forum dies.
Keith asks a perfectly reasonable question and you are all afraid to answer, because to disagree with what Keith says on the subject would make you look stupid.

The rational course would be to agree with Keith's analysis and discuss a way forward......but you people seem to see this place as a battleground, not a discussion forum.
To ignore alternative views or suppress them is a Fascist concept and I have seen signs of that in this forum over many years.


12 Aug 17 - 07:20 AM (#3871156)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Of course the answer is that you won't be happy until only a little gang of "liberals" remain here....no one left to rock the boat ...your ideologies safe from attack....no more anxiety...sleep....sleep.       Cowards!


12 Aug 17 - 07:27 AM (#3871160)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

And just what have you contributed with the last 2 posts, ake? I suspect you are just trying to get yet another thread closed and I am not going to party to it this time.

You have a crazed dictator threatening nuclear destruction on ordinary American people

Trump again?

DtG


12 Aug 17 - 07:33 AM (#3871162)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

But what about the extraordinary American people? And I find your question about Hilary [sic] to be very Tensing...


12 Aug 17 - 07:35 AM (#3871163)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Well, Dave I was hoping my contribution would make you all see how childish you are, but I won't hold my breath.

I am not interested in having the thread closed, neither am I interested in suppression of discussion.


12 Aug 17 - 07:39 AM (#3871164)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"demonstrating his capability of delivering it."

As far as is known, Kim doesn't have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on a missile yet. Also, the missiles themselves are inherently unstable; the last one is thought to have burned up as it descended back to earth. NK are testing several types of missile using various launch and propulsion systems that can reach various ranges... NK has to fire them straight up to avoid hitting other countries so the exact range of the missiles is untested and speculative. South Korea and Japan have good reason to be concerned, the US may well have in time but then so will a fair number of the people on the planet.


"Slagging off Trump is easy, but how should he deal with the real and serious threat of many thousands of American people killed."

Two things here. Firstly, it's not just about American people, it's about ALL the people who will suffer if there is a nuclear war. Any sane person would understand that to press the button would murder millions of complete innocents in whichever country is bombed. Refelect on that for a while.

Secondly, the historical context of NK anti-US sentiment seems to be excluded from any media analysis (sadly not a surprise on today's dumb-down, reactionary world).The US has history in NK and undertook one of the most brutal bombing campaigns against civilian targets ever during the Korean War, with one general boasting they had wiped out 20% of the Korean civilian population. Like it or not, this is one reason why NK feels very threatened by US rhetoric and is exactly why they have to be treated carefully and not by issuing threats; there are plenty of people alive who suffered and lost loved ones as a direct result of those actions, right or wrong. This context is important.


"What should be done?"

For a start, stop using intentionally inflammatory language whilst demonstrating a bellicose attitude. It's been known for years how NK try to provoke a belligerent response from the US and all the previous presidents have had the intelligence to let them rant and rave whilst doing the only thing you can do with profoundly unreasonable people like Kim - use economic sanctions and try to persuade the Chinese to put pressure on the NK leadership.

We know military interventions since the last Korean war have not worked out well for the US and the rest of the world, and even the Korean War isn't officially ended. At the end of the day, the only way to solve these issues is to TALK.


12 Aug 17 - 07:43 AM (#3871166)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

"The rational course would be to agree with Keith's analysis and discuss a way forward"

Perhaps you could elucidate on the analysis, I seem to have missed any analysis.

Or perhaps you mean things like:

"Trump has threatened retaliation or maybe a pre-emptive strike.A bit like Kennedy did over the Cuban missiles. What do you imagine Hilary would have done? What should be done?"

Not exactly material for a diplomatic mission.


12 Aug 17 - 07:44 AM (#3871167)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

"
But what about the extraordinary American people? And I find your question about Hilary [sic] to be very Tensing... "

A wonderful example of the childishness that I referred to. Will you be asking Steve the purpose of that post Dave?


12 Aug 17 - 07:47 AM (#3871169)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Humour Ake, you should try to get some, it works wonders.


12 Aug 17 - 07:48 AM (#3871171)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Stu has made an excellent start at a realistic discussion on the subject, read his post and take it from there.

It's not just another thread for sore losers.


12 Aug 17 - 07:52 AM (#3871172)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Slapstick doesn't appeal and the humour alludes me, not that it was really Steve's intention.


12 Aug 17 - 08:46 AM (#3871181)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Come on Akenaton, tell me about the analysis you mention, I'm all ears.


12 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM (#3871187)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The way forward is an adult conversation. Standard operating procedure is kicking the can down the road. Diplomacy came close once during the Clinton administration but failed. We have settled for a standoff since China does not want to share a border with part of the US empire. I know next to nothing but I can speak off the cuff;
if Germany could unite so can Korea - Its up to YOU China! You are capitalistic enough to absorb the change. And you US, lay down your guns.

Hong Kong is being extorted into an extension of the mainland and will in time not have any sovereign status. Some speak of the subjugation of Taiwan in fullness of time further pushing the US away. The last domino would be Japan absorbed into a Chinese empire. I don't see that happening.

Trump will possibly change the status quo in the Koreas but that is not his aim or talent. His MO is to first threaten to sue, then delay.
I personally dislike being his puppet on a string, when he tugs we all scream.

It is best to avoid making my dream come true, remember how people went out their front door and blamed each other to the end?

A way forward will be good or a cataclysm, the old standoff is crumbling. Reasonable women and men can do this.


12 Aug 17 - 11:00 AM (#3871195)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Clinton 1993


12 Aug 17 - 12:32 PM (#3871208)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

"Slagging off Trump is easy, but how should he deal with the real and serious threat of many thousands of American people killed."

Do tell us, Keith. We're all waiting for your pearls of wisdom.


12 Aug 17 - 12:42 PM (#3871212)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

J.F.Kennedy.
" It (Castro regime) will be prevented by whatever means may be necessary from taking action against any part of the Western Hemisphere,"

As far as is known, Kim doesn't have the capability to put a nuclear warhead on a missile yet.

As far as is known, he could well have. It is quite possible they already have it. If they do not they soon will have.

Firstly, it's not just about American people,

Trump's first duty is to protect American people.

The US has history in NK

The war stopped over 60 years ago. There have been no hostile acts against NK in all that time.
NK has been given no reason to fear invasion.

For a start, stop using intentionally inflammatory language whilst demonstrating a bellicose attitude.

The intentionally inflammatory language and bellicose attitude came from NK. Trump said they would be attacked if they continued to threaten nuclear strikes on Americans. Any President would.

use economic sanctions

They have been used. NK just ignored them and China undermined them.

try to persuade the Chinese to put pressure on the NK leadership.

That has been tried too. It has achieved nothing so far, and now time has run out.

At the end of the day, the only way to solve these issues is to TALK.
NK does not want to talk.

the exact range of the missiles is untested and speculative.

The assessment is that major US cities are in range.
Happy with that?


12 Aug 17 - 01:36 PM (#3871220)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Trump's first duty is to protect American people."
Precisely - starting a nuclear conflagration fits into this how exactly?
When will you morons get your head around the fact that nobody can possibly "win" a nuclear shooting match?
Jim Carroll


12 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM (#3871222)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

Perhaps they could take up MINING
Jim Carroll


12 Aug 17 - 01:40 PM (#3871223)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

You DO know the war never officially ended? There was a cease-fire agreement.

In the US, we have this thing called "trash talking" I don't know that N. Koreans understand what that is. If Kim Jong Un does, it's possibly because his buddy is Dennis Rodman, and there's a lot of trash talking in B-Ball.

Also, culturally, there's the whole "saving face" thing. Trump is all about bullying, including ridicule and threats. This pretty much guarantees verbal retaliation by Kim. I'm thinking the bullying is not going to have the desired effect, unless Trump wants Kim to knock that chip off his shoulder... with a nuke. Somebody needs to be the adult and shut up. We expect Trump to? And when we start pulling some people out of S. Korea, and sending others, we can all forget about diplomacy.


12 Aug 17 - 01:53 PM (#3871226)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

"Happy with that?"

No.

You keep reiterating the extent of the problems and asking everyone else what the answers are - obviously so that you can indulge in your standard schoolyard tactic of ad nauseam nit-picking and hole-poking.

For once, let's hear your proposals for a solution.


12 Aug 17 - 03:06 PM (#3871238)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

But what about the extraordinary American people?

And what about the asshole American people - like the ones who elected Trump? -


12 Aug 17 - 03:27 PM (#3871240)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: meself

I thought 'trash talking' was what low-life thugs do - and low-life thugs who become rich athletes - and tin-pot dictators of tin-pot dictatorships. It's shocking to hear cheap 'trash talk' coming from the most powerful statesman of our ... civilization.


12 Aug 17 - 03:51 PM (#3871243)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

What passes for discussion and solution seeking in the halls of power is surprising similar to your own except the dissenting voice is usually unrewarded or absent and the most bold powerful suggestions are praised with words of; strong, powerful, excellent.

CYA yes men and sycophants got where they are by sucking up.
It was less this way in he Obama years but you could still see same f the CYA method.

Gone are the historians save for military input. Gone are the psych experts and replaced with propagandists.
Now we have 100% pure suckupism !*

We have a concentration of white supremacists at the top. This gives rise to the hooded bottom feeders as we are seeing in America this week.

I suggested unification of Chinese, US and Korean interests. Its hard but easier than the unthinkable. What would Jesus do, what would Einstein do, what would Larry the President guy do?


12 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM (#3871245)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

I know it's tempting, John, but just ignore him. He's a waste of space for the very reasons you've pinpointed.


12 Aug 17 - 04:18 PM (#3871248)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Earlier Akenaton posted "The rational course would be to agree with Keith's analysis and discuss a way forward"

I replied at 07.43 "Perhaps you could elucidate on the analysis, I seem to have missed any analysis"

So I will post a second request Akenaton, please provide a substance to your post of over 8 hours ago, tell us all about the analysis.


12 Aug 17 - 04:57 PM (#3871255)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Sorry Raggytash, just arrived home from a hospital visit.

Keith has analysed the situation which exists at present rather well, he realises that the problem predates President Donal John by several decades, he also notes that previous presidents have been ineffective in stopping NK producing WMDs including work on the Nuclear option.

NK obviously believes that acquiring these weapons is important for its National security, after the Western actions in Iraq and Libya, but the regime is dangerous and volatile and not to be trusted to safeguard these weapons or their use.
I see a Good cop/Bad cop scenario over NK evolving in Washington which may produce results

Keith has asked for views on the way forward.....an interesting subject for discussion, only to be pissed on by would be satirists like Stevie boy, who's "satire" excludes the main ingredient....wit.

Still, I suppose a man must work with the tools at his disposal.


12 Aug 17 - 06:57 PM (#3871272)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Do a search of Charlottesville VA today.

Trump denounced the events in a bored voice with a tepid remark.

You will see our KKK, alt right and Nazis.

None of my passionate remarks are hypothetical anymore.
This is the beginning of my warnings come true. This is not even the end of the beginning.


12 Aug 17 - 11:24 PM (#3871293)
Subject: RE: BS: more war lyrics
From: Donuel

Good times end times
as events turn worse
its too late to learn
if you worship the curse
still the war was golden for some
like the man with the hearse
that followed the drum
Fighting was futile
Our country turned feudal
we suffered Immortal crimes
that killed the globe and time
At first family kingdoms were few
but descended To tribes
Maybe its lazy
To think we're all free
Our leader hadn't a clue
you won't believe what you see
Until it happens to you.


13 Aug 17 - 12:24 AM (#3871297)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Acme

Every time I see that "Donal John" nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone.


13 Aug 17 - 02:03 AM (#3871307)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Keith has analysed the situation which exists at present rather well,
Keith has done nothing of the sort
He has asked a series of vacuous questions and ignored the answers he got - he does that a lot - he has no interest in what others have to say - on anything - he's here to win prizes.
It's interesting to see how the few Trumpeters such as yourself, who welcomed his election because of the inevitibility of war under a Clinton administration, have fallen (not so) strangely silent over the fact that this belligerent and talentless moron has brought the world to the verge of nuclear war less than seven months into his Presidency, during which time he has also turned the the American leadership into an episode of 'The Apprentice' and substituted tweeting for international diplomacy
Talk about and enemy at home as well as enemies abroad.
I've never been a fan of "strong leadership" -it always reminds me of concentration camps in order to make "the trains run on time", but a little diplomacy and serious negotiation rather than gungo-ho John Wayneism wouldn't go amiss here
Jim Carroll


13 Aug 17 - 03:49 AM (#3871313)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

"Every time I see that "Donal John" nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone. "

Given the history of US politics, I am amazed that post has been allowed to stand.

Some people would have had a hay day advertising Oswald's links to "The Russians"


13 Aug 17 - 03:56 AM (#3871315)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Given the history of US politics, I am amazed that post has been allowed to stand."
Given the complexion of the present American administration, I am amazed that Acme hasn't had his door kicked in by armed U.S. Marines
Is that the type of censorship we can expect in your Brave New World
Jim Carroll


13 Aug 17 - 04:04 AM (#3871318)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim,
Precisely - starting a nuclear conflagration fits into this how exactly?
When will you morons get your head around the fact that nobody can possibly "win" a nuclear shooting match?


No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack.
NK is suggesting an NK nuclear attack, and the only way to save the world from it is to remove NK's nukes.

Backwoodsman, my solution is to disarm NK, as Clinton vowed to do but did not.

The human cost now would be much greater, but less than if we put it off again and much less than if NK does what it says it intends to do.


13 Aug 17 - 04:53 AM (#3871323)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

How would disarming North Korea be achieved and with what justification? As the biggest nuclear power on earth is led by a nutcase I don't think that argument can be used on anyone else. Seeing as we are talking fantasy solutions here, a better alternative would be complete global disarmament would it not?

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 05:01 AM (#3871324)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"Happy with that?"

Not really, I found your reply vacuous and lacking in critical analysis. Your reductionist assessment* of the situation oversimplifies the complexities of the real world..

"NK does not want to talk.

But it does. Talking is EXCATLY what NK wants as it wants sanctions to be lifted and to be seen as a major world power. Kim isn't so stupid to think he will bomb his way to the negotiating table; he's close to China and they will not favour a conflagration. NK's tactics of trying rag up the US are designed to elicit a response and the reason why ALL previous presidents have stayed their hand and not used overly provocative playground rhetoric. Trump lacks the ability to understand nuance and this is bad news. You need some degree of intellectual ability too be a world leader; that both Trump** and Kim lack any at all is a concern to a lot of people around the world.



* For example, this: "The war stopped over 60 years ago. There have been no hostile acts against NK in all that time." The second world war finished over 70 years ago but it's consequences are felt by us all on a daily basis and many people alive today remember it vividly and virtually all of us have family that were involved that makes it very personal. So the distance in time from the events doesn't stop the influence of those events. The political ramifications of WWII are with us every day. It's not different for the North Koreans, and it's erroneous to believe it is.

**Google the transcript of Trump's call to the governor of Guam. Incredible: incoherent and inarticulate.


13 Aug 17 - 05:29 AM (#3871330)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

@Stu - excellent post. I agree completely.

@KAoH - a glib, one sentence answer won't do at all. It's a bit like answering the question, "How can we get a man to the moon?" with, "Put him in a rocket and shoot him off". So...in detail, what are your proposals for the means to disarm North Korea. And it will take more than one glib sentence for me to be 'happy with that'.


13 Aug 17 - 05:40 AM (#3871333)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Sorry Stu, I don't agree with that assessment I think the East have views on adopting the place occupied by the US in the last couple of centuries.....It is unlikely that China will want to disarm NK, unless it becomes a hindrance or an embarrassment.

Disarmament of NK is all but impossible without huge loss of life.
I don't think it is President Trump's intention to provoke war but to set up a dialogue....The Goodcop/Bad cop scenario always assists in achieving that goal.
The great powers need to understand that world domination by one nation or one side is no longer an option and China, US and Russia need to move closer in prevention of terrorism, controlling rogue states and other matters of INTERNATIONAL importance


13 Aug 17 - 05:54 AM (#3871336)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack."
Any attack is likely to provoke a nuclear reaction
This is a time for diplomacy and negotiation not the only response Trump is capable of - belligerence
Do you think North Korea is likely to stand for being disarmed?
You were the one who described interference in another country's affairs as "fascism" - what's the difference between the North Korean leadership and Assad.
Whewn it comes to who is suitabe to possess Nuclear Weapons - I would reckon NK and the US are neck-and-neck
Both have unstable leaders and the US has shown itself willing to use this shit on human beings.
Time to catch up with Bertrand Russell and Canon Collins I think - if it's not TOO LATE
Jim Carroll


13 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM (#3871341)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

" I think the East have views on adopting the place occupied by the US in the last couple of centuries."

China certainly might have, but I think they understand economic dominance will be the key to achieving this and their military and economic policies are formulated with this dominance in mind. This is also why they want to keep NK on a tight leash, as the very idea of a conflict on their border, especially involving the US which would be economically disastrous.


13 Aug 17 - 06:39 AM (#3871342)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

"Every time I see that 'Donal John' nonsense I want to puke. Let's hope that is what turns up soon on his headstone."

Ha. I can't resist. There's that great joke about a missing letter on a headstone, but, in deference to the grave nature of this topic, I've posted it in the joke thread, q.v.


13 Aug 17 - 08:26 AM (#3871358)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: bobad

the biggest nuclear power on earth is led by a nutcase

Totally agree with your assessment of Putin.


13 Aug 17 - 08:58 AM (#3871366)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Point taken, bobad. I shall rephrase

The first and second biggest nuclear powers on earth are led by nutcases.

BTW - At last count Russia had 7000 to The US's 6800. Both have enough to blow the world to oblivion many times over so it is a little trite to be discussing 200. In my opinion.

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM (#3871372)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

"No-one is suggesting a US nuclear attack."
Any attack is likely to provoke a nuclear reaction


USA is committed to no first use of nukes.
NK is threatening just that.

Dave and Backwoodsman, disarming NK is no fantasy. How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?

The human cost will be much greater now, but greater still if put off any longer, or if a device is exploded over Seoul or Tokyo or Los Angeles.


13 Aug 17 - 09:29 AM (#3871373)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

disarming NK is no fantasy.

Yes it is. Until the rest of the world disarms.

How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?

No idea. You tell us.

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 09:32 AM (#3871374)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"USA is committed to no first use of nukes."
Donald Trump id President - what's your point?
"but greater still if put off any longer, "
Why - perhaps we've got more empty coalmines now!!
Are you really proposing a preemptive strike?
Who needs a Trump when we have one of our own?
I knew your vacuous questions weere all rhetorical and you already had a "cunning plan"
Jay-sus
Jim Carroll


13 Aug 17 - 09:45 AM (#3871379)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave,
disarming NK is no fantasy.
Yes it is. Until the rest of the world disarms.


Can you substantiate that assertion with any actual facts Dave?
No.
Of course it is possible. The current Kim could be persuaded to relinquish his nuclear weapons in negotiations, or his nuclear facilities could be destroyed.

No idea. You tell us.

By force Dave.

Jim,
Are you really proposing a preemptive strike?

Clinton did Jim.


13 Aug 17 - 09:51 AM (#3871381)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

now Trump is stumping for a military solution to Venezuela

How about a military solution to Trump


13 Aug 17 - 10:05 AM (#3871386)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Clinton and Obama are no longer in office and bringing either of them into the argument is irrelevant at this stage, even though invoking their names seems to be a soothing balm for enthusiastic Trump apologists. We have an individual in the Oval Office who is mentally unbalanced (I'm running out of ways to say it) and he's already fanned the flames of this dilemma with his video game rhetoric and I, for one, don't want him making decisions that could affect the safety and well-being and lives of a million or more people (all people, not just Americans). As I said earlier, the best thing he can do is back off and let the grownups take care of this. He's already demonstrated an astonishing inability to govern on the domestic front why, should we expect anything better in foreign affairs.
The prospect of invoking the 25th amendment is looking more appealing but is probably not going to happen as he's loaded up his cabinet with corporate bloodsuckers and sycophants with mindsets similar to his own. It would also leave us with a far right ideologue in charge but it's relatively certain Pence would act in a much more responsible manner.


13 Aug 17 - 10:11 AM (#3871389)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

For some if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.


And I'm proud to support all of our Trumps cause they need us to obey.
And I won't forget the votes suppressed that brought us to this day.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Donald today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that we got hacked, God bless the Bannon way

From the camps in Vladivostok to nuke plants of Tennessee,
From the red white and black sea to shining sea
From Norlands to the North pole and Moscow to LA,
There's pride in all our oligarchs who we won't betray,

So it's time to stand up and salute: God bless the Nazi way!

I'm proud to be a Russian Asset cause I learned to hate all gays.
And I won't forget the men who lied and took our rights away.
And I'd gladly stand up next to you and defend Putin today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that Russia hacked! But we hail the USA.

And I'm proud to support all of our Trumps cause I love to hate all day.
And I won't forget the men who lied and took our rights away.
And I'd gladly stand up... next to you and defend them still today.
'Cause it ain't fake fact that we got hacked We heil the USA!


13 Aug 17 - 10:16 AM (#3871390)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Clinton did Jim."
So ******* what?
It appears you are now
Nutters all
Jim Carroll


13 Aug 17 - 10:57 AM (#3871396)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

Ake's affection for calling President Trump "Donal John" is just another way of avoiding saying the guy's name. It's funny enough, if you think about it. (It's way easier to write "HWMNBN")





When this thread gets to "you said/he said/gimme citations" and back-and-forth bickering, and when the personalities doing the fighting become more important than the supposed subject, it will be closed.


13 Aug 17 - 11:27 AM (#3871403)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Well said, Jeri. We already have

Can you substantiate that assertion with any actual facts

I, for one, not going to be drawn into that spiral again. As far as I am concerned you can shut it now.

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 11:31 AM (#3871404)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Incidentally I have just seen the best adaptation of the presidents name so far

Troubled Dump.

:D tG


13 Aug 17 - 12:20 PM (#3871415)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave, what is wrong in asking that an assertion be backed?
The problem is that you can't.
I showed that your assertion was wrong anyway.


13 Aug 17 - 12:34 PM (#3871417)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jeri

Keith, you are presenting him with a hoop to jump through. He doesn't want to. Nobody needs to prove an opinion, and if you don't agree with him, there's nothing he can provide that will make you change your mind.


13 Aug 17 - 12:47 PM (#3871418)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

it's relatively certain Pence would act in a much more responsible manner.

I'm not so sure of that - Pence is unstable, too, if to a lesser degree than Trump. And he'd still have to deal with Trump's cabinet of corporate bloodsuckers, sycophants and unqualified plutocrats.


13 Aug 17 - 12:55 PM (#3871421)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

It's a shit deal either way, Greg, I'll give you that.


13 Aug 17 - 01:28 PM (#3871427)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks Jeri. Much appreciated.

Keith, you really need to take notice.

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM (#3871428)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Apologies all. I should stick to the topic rather than let myself be sidetracked. Mea culpa :-(

It is my opinion that while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

DtG


13 Aug 17 - 03:56 PM (#3871450)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

Exactly, Dave. Got it in one.


13 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM (#3871454)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Backwoodsman

Dave and Backwoodsman, disarming NK is no fantasy. How did Clinton propose to disarm NK in 1993?"

No, stop trying to obfuscate and deflect by replying to a question with a question. Answer the question you were asked. Put up, or shut up.

Bet you can't, you wind-bag.


13 Aug 17 - 04:51 PM (#3871469)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

February 9, 1993: The IAEA demands special inspections of two sites that are believed to store nuclear waste. The request is based on strong evidence that North Korea has been cheating on its commitments under the NPT. North Korea refuses the IAEA's request.

March 12, 1993: Amid demands for special inspections, North Korea announces its intention to withdraw from the NPT in three months, citing Article X provisions that allow withdrawal for supreme national security considerations.

April 1, 1993: The IAEA declares that North Korea is not adhering to its safeguards agreement and that it cannot guarantee that North Korean nuclear material is not being diverted for nonpeaceful uses.

June 11, 1993: Following talks with the United States in New York, North Korea suspends its decision to pull out of the NPT just before the withdrawal would have become legally effective. North Korea also agrees to the full and impartial application of IAEA safeguards.

For its part, the United States grants assurances against the threat and use of force, including nuclear weapons. Washington also promises not to interfere with North Korea's internal affairs.

July 19, 1993: After a second round of talks with the United States, North Korea announces in a joint statement that it is "prepared to begin consultations with the IAEA on outstanding safeguards and other issues" and that it is ready to negotiate IAEA inspections of its nuclear facilities. The joint statement also indicates that Pyongyang might consider a deal with the United States to replace its graphite nuclear reactors with light-water reactors (LWRs), which are proliferation resistant.

Late 1993: The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Defense Intelligence Agency estimate that North Korea had separated about 12 kilograms of plutonium. This amount is enough for at least one or two nuclear weapons.


14 Aug 17 - 03:40 AM (#3871526)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

"Jim, Are you really proposing a preemptive strike? KAOH "Clinton did Jim"

Just for clarity Clinton did NOT say the US would use a preemptive strike, he said the US would retaliate.

Everyone can read the report below:

What Clinton Said


14 Aug 17 - 03:55 AM (#3871529)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

while the superpowers hold an alarming number of nuclear weapons it is hypocritical of them to expect another country to disarm.

I agree, but NK is a special case.
Their possession of such weapons makes millions of people hostage to an irrational dictator in probably the most cruel and repressive regime in the world.

UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile.
If I had family on West Coast USA or Japan I would be worried.

That is not just my view, or just Trump's.
All previous administrations including Obama and Clinton have considered a nuclear NK unacceptable.
All wrong? All uninformed? All hypocrites?

Jeri, I understand I can not make Dave jump through hoops, or apparently even ask him to, but may I be allowed to point out when his assertions are based on no actual knowledge or any evidence?
That they are just a vacuous whim with no basis in fact.


14 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM (#3871532)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)

San Francisco, London and Sydney are all pretty much the same distance from North Korea.

That should in no way be seen as an endorsement by me of Trump's rhetoric, or indeed Kim Jong Un's.

In my view an existing nuclear powers should be disarming as indicated by Article VI of the NNPT.


14 Aug 17 - 04:04 AM (#3871533)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: David Carter (UK)

"an" should read "all". Can't you edit posts any more?


14 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM (#3871534)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Rag, opening sentence of your NY Times link.

"The North Korean Government accused President Clinton today of provoking it with threats of war after he warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms. "

What did Hillary Clinton say?

"North Korea's decision to conduct another nuclear test is outrageous and unacceptable.  I strongly condemn this reckless action, which – coupled with its recent series of missile launches – makes clear Pyongyang's determination to develop a deliverable nuclear weapon.  This constitutes a direct threat to the United States, and we cannot and will never accept this."
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/statements/2016/09/09/statement-from-hillary-clinton-on-north-koreas-nuclear-test/

So, not just Trump.


14 Aug 17 - 04:14 AM (#3871535)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

"The North Korean Government accused President Clinton today of provoking it with threats of war after he warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms"

Correct me if I am wrong but Hilary Clinton has never been the president.

Other than that please note the use of the word "retaliate"


14 Aug 17 - 04:19 AM (#3871537)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

David, London is actually closer to Korea than LA.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I think they would attack US cities first.


14 Aug 17 - 04:21 AM (#3871538)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

"UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile"

Oh yes I can see it now, right start the truck lads, drive across China, Kazakhstan, Russia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Netherlands.

If you get any trouble at customs nuke 'em !!

Brilliant !!!


14 Aug 17 - 04:33 AM (#3871540)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Rag,
Correct me if I am wrong but Hilary Clinton has never been the president.

She was Obama's Secretary of State and Trump's rival for president.

According to your NY Times piece, Clinton "warned that the United States would retaliate if North Korea developed nuclear arms. "

So all previous administrations have considered a nuclear NK unacceptable, and so would Hillary if she had won.

Rag, do you believe that smuggling does not happen?


14 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM (#3871541)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Get this in your suitcase !!


Ha ha ha, love it !!


14 Aug 17 - 04:58 AM (#3871543)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

I agree, but NK is a special case.
Their possession of such weapons makes millions of people hostage to an irrational dictator"
At the risk of.....
Israel has had the bomb for some time now - it is religion driven and is ruled by an extremist right-wing regime of the type that has only been kept out of the International law courts by US vetoes (pretty well as Syria is being kept out of the courts by Chinese and Russian vetoes)
It has a history of human rights abuses, including massacres of unarmed civilians
It has shown itself willing to put nuclear weapons in the hands of a fascist state as proved by its attempts to arm the South African Regime
It is permanently under accusation of ethnic cleansing
And to top it all - its Head of State is under investigation for corruption.
As I said - it has the bomb
America has a bomb, has a long history of both security and actual military interference in the affairs of other states - its security forces have a long history of espionage, sabotage and murder.
It has used similar weapons on two sizeable cities, causing death and deformation to generations of children
As unstable as North Korea might be, it couldn't begin to compete with the records of these two beauties
It is the existence of the bomb that is the problem - not who possesses it.
If we continue to support its existence we will be sealing the fate of the future
Jim Carroll


14 Aug 17 - 06:31 AM (#3871555)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Stu

"UK is not in range of him yet, although devices can be delivered by truck as well as missile."

You're using the idea some bloke's going to check a thermonuclear warhead into a lorry, drive it half way around the work undetected, cross the channel and detonate it to support an argument for a pre-emptive nuclear strike?


14 Aug 17 - 06:48 AM (#3871559)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

I'd check the wife's packing if I were you professor, you never know, reds under the bed and all that. If you see her hitching a artillery piece onto the back of the car you might be in trouble.

Ha ha ha, thanks for the giggle !!!


14 Aug 17 - 07:09 AM (#3871562)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

The smallest suitcase nuke is under 75 lbs. For the largest you would have to talk to Russia.


14 Aug 17 - 09:04 AM (#3871584)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Reporter: What would Armageddon look like in Korea?

General McMasterace: Well it would not be the holocaust people imagine. 10 or 20 million in collateral damage tops. There would be no Armageddon.
It would be more like a kitty cataclysm.



Remember if you want any WWIII jokes you better write them now.


14 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM (#3871626)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

Stu,
You're using the idea some bloke's going to check a thermonuclear warhead into a lorry, drive it half way around the work undetected, cross the channel and detonate it to support an argument for a pre-emptive nuclear strike?

No. Certainly not a thermonuclear device.
A basic device could be fitted into a suitcase. They were fitted into 155mm shells.

It is quite feasible to smuggle such a device into a country.
NK recently smuggled VX, the most deadly of all nerve agents, into Indonesia.
NK has ICBM missiles to deliver its warheads.

Jim,
You keep claiming to have proved something so far you have "proved" nothing.


The only case I wanted to make is that, whatever else he may be guilty of, Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors and with his rival for the Presidency.
I have shown that to be the case.


14 Aug 17 - 02:38 PM (#3871637)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Its not just that Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors and with his rival for the Presidency, its inconfuckingcievably convenient just when he needs an ultimate distraction.


15 Aug 17 - 03:33 AM (#3871691)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"The only case I wanted to make is that, whatever else he may be guilty of, Trump's views on NK nukes are in line with all his predecessors"
You don't have to "prove" this Keith - nobody has ever argued that any administration has ever opposed nuclear weapons, on the contrary, they have all supported them and Britain has always followed that line slavishly
That's what the Aldermaston marches and CND were about - the rejection of nuclear weapons.
The advent of Trump and his megalomaniac approach to leadership has turned the spotlight back on the necessity to abandon reliance on this form of defence and replace it with diplomacy - Trump has proven himself totally incapable of doing that.
Your 'Dr Strangelove' type arguments are helpful as an example of Trump's non-thinking approach to a serious situation - even down to nuclear weapons in suitcases in order to bomb London - science fiction at its most crass (I know - I was a devotee once).
Jim Carroll


15 Aug 17 - 07:05 AM (#3871707)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

Trump has backed down and condemned Nazism, the White Supremists and the KKK - who says demonstrations don't work
As far as I understand, he has not associated his comments with the events in Charlotteville
"Racism is evil and those who cause vilolence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, noo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans"
He refuses to describe the truck attack as an act of terrorism
Jim Carroll


15 Aug 17 - 07:40 AM (#3871718)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Most sane people are against colour prejudice Jim, why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? As far as I know he has never given any indication that he is a racist.
In another thread you attempt to excuse violence and terrorism in the cause of systemic change....well you and I are about the only people on this forum who seem to want systemic change, but we have very different views on how it should be achieved.

Violence is self defeating, I would never excuse terrorism in the pursuit of change as you do. It would be immoral and ineffective.

Systemic Change can only be achieved by unity and evolution driven by necessity. It will NOT be a "choice".


15 Aug 17 - 07:56 AM (#3871721)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Donald Trump's Long History of Racism-Vox

From the Article:

"1989: In a controversial case that's been characterized as a modern-day lynching, four black teenagers and one Latino teenager — the "Central Park Five" — were accused of attacking and raping a jogger in New York City. Trump immediately took charge in the case, running an ad in local papers demanding, "BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY. BRING BACK OUR POLICE!" The teens' convictions were later vacated after they spent seven to 13 years in prison, and the city paid $41 million in a settlement to the teens. But Trump in October said he still believes they're guilty, despite the DNA evidence to the contrary."


15 Aug 17 - 08:03 AM (#3871723)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Steve Shaw

And I see he's acquired a hyphen now. "Donal-John." Bwahahahahahaha!


15 Aug 17 - 08:16 AM (#3871724)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? "
Paerhaps because he is not sane?
Like it or not (most sane people do not - you, apparently do) - he is President of the United States)
It is his job as President to condemn racism outright, particularly when it takes to the streets - he has prevaricated and twisted and finally, has been embarrassed into making a still half-arsed statement
The people he has been forced into condemning form a large section of support for his populism and extremist rhetoric - that's why he has hesitated in condemning them
"Violence is self defeating,"
What an insane statement - of course it isn't otherwise we would be living in a world without war
Violence is an inevitable part of the world we live in and until we change that world, it will remain the case.
I have never at any time condoned terrorism, I point out that it is inevitable in certain circumstances - America uses terrorism in peacetime and at war, Britain has used and supported terrorism in wartime and has backed terrorism when they deemed necessary in situations like those in Northern Ireland - waterboarding and other forms of torture, for instance.
As a pacifist (sort of), I abhor all forms of violence, but that doesn't mean I don't recognise its inevitability and am prepared to accept it as the lesser of two evils
Terrorism (aka "resistance") helped defeat Nazism in Eorope - it hapled end Apartheid in South Africa - it brought about the downfall of Empires and won independence for many countries
Your last sentence is utter gibberish unless you are prepared to lay out in detailed terms who social terms is to be brought about
To work for the betterment of humanity is to provoke a violent response from those who wish to maintain their dominance of society - the eternal dilemma of all pacifists (sort of or otherwise)
Jim Carroll


15 Aug 17 - 08:22 AM (#3871727)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

I still find it extremely rude to change someone's name because of some infantile idea you have about his half Scottish heritage.

He was named Donald John by his parents that should suffice for any rational person, especially by someone who obviously supports him and his politics.

(If Scotland want to claim him as their own however, they are welcome to him)


15 Aug 17 - 08:35 AM (#3871733)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

Incidentally Ake
Your equating the demonstrations in Charlottesville with "terrorism" is outrageous, but it is handy as an indication of whose side you are on
Would you describe those who took to the streets to oppose The Blackshirts as "terrorists" - if not, why not?
I don't really expect an answer to this, but your silence will suffice as one
Jim Carroll


15 Aug 17 - 09:19 AM (#3871743)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

<>I>that should suffice for any rational person

Precisely. [emphasis mine]


15 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM (#3871764)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

"If they shoot at us that's called war, then its game on"
General Grievous Gravy. aka Secretary Gen. Mattis

Do unarmed missiles hitting 20 miles from Guam qualify?


15 Aug 17 - 12:45 PM (#3871790)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Jim, I did not equate the skirmish in Charlottesville with terrorism, I was referring to your support of IRA terrorism and lately you have become an apologist for Jihadi terrorism.


This forum seems to contain an over representation of people who require spectacles or a literacy course.


15 Aug 17 - 01:26 PM (#3871795)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, I did not equate the skirmish in Charlottesville with terrorism,"
Yes you did - what has your reference to "terrorism" got to do with this discussion if that is not what you were referring to?


15 Aug 17 - 01:31 PM (#3871796)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

I was referring to YOUR support for terrorism.


15 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM (#3871798)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

It wasn't hard to find.

From: akenaton - PM
Date: 15 Aug 17 - 07:40 AM

Most sane people are against colour prejudice Jim, why should you think that President Donal-John should be any different? As far as I know he has never given any indication that he is a racist.
In another thread you attempt to excuse violence and terrorism in the cause of systemic change....well you and I are about the only people on this forum who seem to want systemic change, but we have very different views on how it should be achieved.

Violence is self defeating, I would never excuse terrorism in the pursuit of change as you do. It would be immoral and ineffective.

Systemic Change can only be achieved by unity and evolution driven by necessity. It will NOT be a "choice".


15 Aug 17 - 01:35 PM (#3871799)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

I suppose, like Stu, you are too gutless to apologise.


15 Aug 17 - 01:47 PM (#3871803)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

As far as I know [Trump] has never given any indication that he is a racist.

Jesus wept.

Well, Ache, you apparently know jack shit.


15 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM (#3871807)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Greg Ake knows that Trump is the most wealthy magnanimous man in the world.

btw Trump is asking courts for millions of IP addresses of those who organize protests against Trump. Lets give him Ake's IP.

The DOJ may give him all he wants.


15 Aug 17 - 02:21 PM (#3871809)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

I don't hate people just because they are rich Don.....I know some very nice people who are extremely rich.

You have me confused with Jim who sees being rich as the root of all evil......mostly envy I'm afraid, if we were honest we would all like to be rich, that is why capitalism has survived so long, someday, someway our numbers are gonna come up........we deceive ourselves, but Jim's brand of socialists are blameless, whiter than the driven snow :0)


15 Aug 17 - 02:32 PM (#3871812)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Jim Carroll

You have yet to give an example of my supporting terrorism - you invented it and included it here
I asked for a substantiation of your claim that I supportd terrorim to bring about change - still waiting on that one
The longer you keep this up the more you confirm your support for fascists
Jim Carroll


15 Aug 17 - 02:40 PM (#3871814)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Donuel

Please don't nuke us North Korea
A song by Weird Al


16 Aug 17 - 09:25 AM (#3871939)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Keith A of Hertford

NK has backed down from its threat to launch missiles towards Guam.


16 Aug 17 - 09:47 AM (#3871942)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Raggytash

Yesterdays papers, telling yesterdays news.


16 Aug 17 - 10:07 AM (#3871944)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

Chilling stuff.

I have never wanted someone to be wrong as much as this.

DtG


16 Aug 17 - 12:44 PM (#3871976)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: akenaton

Drivel, in the unlikely event of a coming war it is many times more likely to be a civil war than an attempt at world domination.

Calm down, go for a walk, all will be well. Another ten years will see most of us "oot"......the human race must learn to grow up....FAST.


16 Aug 17 - 01:00 PM (#3871980)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: gillymor

Chilling stuff indeed, Dave. We're fortunate to have an eloquent old vet like that still around to tell his story.


16 Aug 17 - 01:17 PM (#3871984)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Greg F.

Calm down, go for a walk, all will be well.

Says Neville ChamberAche.


16 Aug 17 - 01:25 PM (#3871987)
Subject: RE: BS: Trump Korean War II
From: Dave the Gnome

What do we take notice of I wonder? An eloquent and well reasoned analysis from an intelligent 94 year old author / WW2 RAF veteran or the meaningless rantings of a known bigot who tells us he is a socialist and then votes Tory?

Tough choice.

Not.

DtG