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23 Jun 17 - 08:12 AM (#3862485) Subject: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Jack Campin Students in the UK to learn violin making get their visas refused because the Home Office doesn't think it's "academic" enough: http://newarkadvertiser.co.uk/news/2017/06/22/students-face-deportation |
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23 Jun 17 - 08:20 AM (#3862487) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,DTM Says it all about exactly where we are these days. |
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23 Jun 17 - 08:36 AM (#3862492) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST Probably a lot more "academic" than much of what goes on in Universities these days, Making a musical instrument requires real skill and attention to detail, the end result is often beautiful, delicate and pleasing to both the eye and the ear. And Yes, it does speak volumes about where we are today. |
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23 Jun 17 - 09:21 AM (#3862502) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,henryp It's a fiddle. |
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23 Jun 17 - 09:35 AM (#3862506) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Nigel Parsons Despite the opening comments, the link says that the Home Office refused to comment. A quote from the link: The school is part of the Lincoln College Group, which is no longer allowed to sponsor their international student visas after being rated as requiring improvement by Ofsted in August last year. The four students are affected because diplomas from the violin-making school do not have wider educational recognition from Ofsted, despite the fact they are regarded around the world as a benchmark of professional quality. |
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23 Jun 17 - 01:00 PM (#3862542) Subject: student visas for violin makers From: Felipa The policy is being misapplied because this is obviously a bona fide course which will give its students employment potential in many countries. I looked for an online petition to the Home Office but none has been started yet, apparently. There is room for discretion in granting visas so a petition can have some influence. Recently two Syrian refugee brothers were seriously injured in the Grenfell fire; one of them died. I expect that public support, including a petition, influenced the Home Office decision to let the young men's parents come to the U.K. I do think the violin making course should be recognized for future Tier 4 student visas; after all it's in the U.K. school's own interests! But more immediately important, the four students from outside the E.U. who have already studied at the school for the past academic year should be given exceptional leave to remain while they complete their studies. The article says that students have approached m.p.s but doesn't say what reaction they got ... maybe it's just to early in the day. |
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23 Jun 17 - 01:18 PM (#3862545) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST More urgently, we need a Ministry of Defence attack on bodhran making. |
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23 Jun 17 - 02:02 PM (#3862555) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Murray MacLeod I see nothing in that link to suggest that the Home Office doesn't consider the course to be "academic enough".... far less any indication that this is an attack by the Home Office on violin making. Quote from link: A college spokesman said: "The School of Musical Instrument Crafts is unable to accept new overseas students until such time that it regains its Tier Four Status. "A strong focus on further improving education should mean an Ofsted 'good' grade when it is likely to be re-inspected in the spring. This will lead to it regaining its tier four status. "As a result of these developments four overseas musical instrument crafts students will not be able to stay in the country to complete further studies. "All will be given full accreditation certificates for the years they have completed, made an offer of compensation and be offered guaranteed deferred places at a significantly discounted rate when we regain our status. "We are also exploring alternative UK training providers who could help them complete their studies. "We are continuing to develop and invest in The School of Musical Instrument Crafts and we are working with Hull University to validate a degree-level course." I would assume that all the students will eventually be able to resume their studies, and at the end of the day take their place in the (very lucrative) world of violin repair. |
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23 Jun 17 - 06:32 PM (#3862595) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Jack Campin Why should Ofsted have any say in the matter? They're here to learn something. What if it was cheese making or reinforced concrete building? You aren't going to get a degree in those. What kind of value system says they're so worthless you should be thrown out of the country for pursuing them? |
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23 Jun 17 - 07:09 PM (#3862597) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: BobL Sorry Jack - I seem to have lost the plot. Who is being thrown out of the country for pursuing studies in cheesemaking or civil engineering? The unfortunate students at Newark are facing deportation because, through no fault of their own, they are not able to continue with their violin-making. I agree this is an unsatisfactory situation (which I hope will be resolved to the benefit of all concerned), but if you're going to sling mud, please at least aim it in the right direction. |
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23 Jun 17 - 07:35 PM (#3862602) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Jack Campin The only reason they can't continue is because the Home Office won't let them. An unrelated local story put this in my mind: what about religious trainees? There are thousands of them in the UK, studying every kind of mumbo-jumbo imaginable, coming from everywhere in the world. None of these cult brainwashing schemes is certified by Ofsted, or ever could be. If they're going to throw people out for studying a skill like violin making, why in the name of flying spaghetti are all the cult indoctrinees allowed in? Maybe the Newark college ought to rebrand itself as a branch of the True Church of Jesus the Cabinetmaker. He must have knocked out the occasional lyre in the dead spells in his dad's workshop. |
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23 Jun 17 - 08:42 PM (#3862603) Subject: Newark college facebook page recommendations From: Felipa there are sugggestions from the college facebook page re who to write letters to- in letter-writing I would concentrate on the welfare of the 4 students who have already started the course and should be allowed to complete it. Despite Ofstead report re Lincoln College, Newark College is offering vocational training in a very specialised skill and has a good reputation in its field. And by the way, if you would like to learn a bit about the college and violin-making, there is an open day Sat 1 July https://www.facebook.com/events/1890684577920871 SUGGESTIONS FROM NEWARK COLLEGE FACEBOOK PAGE: If you want to help, write to any of this people explaining why this is important! Robert Jenrick MP for Newark: robert.jenrick.mp@parliament.uk 29a London Road, Newark NG24 1TN Justine Greening Secretary of State for Education greeningj@parliament.uk Ministers@education.gov.uk FE Commissioner (new appointment to be announced) Education & Skills Funding Agency info@sfa.bis.gov.uk UK Borders and Immigration Minister of State for the Home Office, Brandon Lewis public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk brandon.lewis.mp@parliament.uk It would also be a good idea to copy any emails and letters to Jill Maynard, Head of Creative Arts at Lincoln College, so that she knows the pressure is on. jmaynard@lincolncollege.ac.uk |
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23 Jun 17 - 09:04 PM (#3862607) Subject: Newark college facebook page recommendations From: Felipa "This also affects Piano tuning, Woodwind and Guitar making courses" https://www.facebook.com/NewarkSchoolOfViolinMaking/posts/1864395453809437 : message from our student representatives: ... So following the meeting yesterday with the people of the Main college, here is what we decided with the student reps : No solution has been found yet for the 4 international students who have simply been told to leave the school AND the country on the 31st of July, having no chance to finish the course. The compensation offered by the Main college is, to my opinion, not even worth mentioning. Let's carry on Violin varnish action plan, and here is also some content you can use for your emails. Let's try to get the attention of the relevant people ! SO HERE IS WHAT WE CAN DO A great amount of initiatives is already happening, but we are still looking for a concrete solution and time is running out as the students have to leave the country on the 31st of July. SEND EMAILS. This is going to take you such a short time, but could make such a difference ! we want to get the attention of any important people who might be relevant. Following Violin Varnish action plan, here is the list : Justine Greening, Secretary of State for Education -> greeningj@parliament.uk -> Ministers@education.gov.uk UK border & immigration -> public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk -> brandon.lewis.mp@parliament.uk Robert Jenrick, MP for Newark constituency -> robert.jenrick.mp@parliament.uk WHAT TO SEND Sending a short question will already have an effect and add on the pressure. Copy the link of the article in the Newark advertiser, explain you are very concerned by this unfair, critical situation and ask what can be done for those students. Long version After a meeting with the main college yesterday, we came up with a bullet list of the main facts. THIS IS WRITTEN IN HALF SENTENCES, dont just copy it, arrange the sentences the way you want (it will have more impact if each email dont look exactly the same) or add an introduction paragraph to explain this is not acceptable. - Newark school of violin making is part of Lincolncollege but is fully funded. - Last academic year, Ofsted inspection After that, college informed could no longer be sponsor of visas for international students. -After attempts to appeal, on 22D of May College been confirmed international (non EU) students must leave the UK on the 31st of July. - Violin making school was NOT even inspected by Ofsted - 4 students are affected this year, all in Violin Making. Further international students cannot apply anymore. This also affects Piano tuning, Woodwind and Guitar making courses ! - Lincoln college did manage to get a legacy license, but the Violin school having no government oversight, students are not allowed to finish the course and are sent home. - Lincoln college assures it is only temporary situation until next Ofsted inspection next year, but no guarantee at all. - Questions and conclusion : what can be done for the 4 affected students ? And what can be done to protect the future of this worldwide recognised school ? I really do believe this has a chance to work, so please take the time… Thank you to all ! |
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24 Jun 17 - 01:20 AM (#3862620) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,Jonm This has nothing to do with violin making. Ofsted inspect all Further Education provision and some specific lower-level vocational Higher Education provision (for example, HNCs in some skills-based disciplines). If you are found to be unsatisfactory in your provision by Ofsted, then you are prevented from taking Tier 4 visa candidates until reinspected as satisfactory. It doesn't matter what the actual course is, them's the rules. Originally a Home Office stick to beat fake institutions offering English through work experience, it's applied universally. |
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24 Jun 17 - 06:26 AM (#3862661) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,Jack Campin Yeah, that's their procedure. We didn't need to be told that. It's bullying officious bollocks trying to make xenophobia look respectable. When the rules are thuggish, unjust and backed up by a stack of lies, you get them changed, and until they get changed, disregard them as far as you possibly can. |
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24 Jun 17 - 09:49 AM (#3862696) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST Thank you Murray, for shedding some light on this. I now see that the original post appears to have given a misleading slant on this. And what it has to do with xenophobia escapes me... |
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24 Jun 17 - 10:12 AM (#3862701) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link I can see this going below the line soon ! |
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24 Jun 17 - 10:20 AM (#3862702) Subject: student visas for violin makers From: Felipa I agree that the Jack's headline is provocative.(It did get our attention!) I don't know whether or not the rules re which courses qualify for student visas need to be rewritten. It appears this may be the case, for instance if there is a bias against non-academic courses. But there does need to be a human face added to bureaucratic decisions. Newark College of Violin Making and Repair was not actually inspected by Ofstead; the college and its students are suffering due to alleged shortcomings of the parent college, Lincoln College. The Home Office can and, in my opinion, should step in and make exception for the present students at Newark College. (If that is the tip of the iceberg, and more appeals come in, so be it). I am following the fb advice of the student body and sending a few short letters urging support for the students' case against deportation. |
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24 Jun 17 - 10:33 AM (#3862705) Subject: tier 4 student visas From: Felipa these students are no drain on the UK economy, rather the opposite https://www.gov.uk/tier-4-general-visa |
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24 Jun 17 - 10:47 AM (#3862708) Subject: student visas for violin makers From: Felipa Ofsted report https://reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report/provider/ELS/130762 does not refer only to academic courses refers mainly to 16-19 year old group many of the short-comings I think would NOT apply to Newark College of Violin Making and Repair which Ofsted did not visit. Why shouldnt extension of visas to students who are already enrolled be allowed even when a college needs to regain Tier 4 status in order to sponsor visas for new students? |
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24 Jun 17 - 11:01 AM (#3862711) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,Peter Sumner- This is very bad news and I hope the activism that seems to be generated will help change minds. I had the honor of attending the piano technician 3 years course 1985 to 1987 and the experience changed my life. I commuted from Cleethorpes. The basic skills I obtained there were the springboard to a lifetime of learning and have enabled me to get to the top of my profession. I now live in San Francisco and am on the verge of retirement from my position as Piano Curator at the Department of Music at Stanford University. International students enrich our lives on a daily basis as we learn from them and the world gets smaller. Thank you for the contact info attached to the above posts. I will get involved and do what I can. Keep on keeping on! |
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24 Jun 17 - 11:31 AM (#3862718) Subject: student visas for violin makers From: Felipa re letter-writing, it's a good idea to also include a link to the newspaper article for reference (something I forgot on most occasions) in the case of Justine Greening, " If you are a Putney, Roehampton or Southfields resident then it would be very helpful if you could include your full name and address in your email. ... If you are not a constituent but are writing to me in my capacity as Secretary of Education, please visit https://www.gov.uk/contact-dfe and fill out the online contact form, or call the department on 0370 000 2288." Home Office will reply in ~20 days says the automated response, so it seems the best strategy is to urge Robert Jenrick to make strong representation to the Home Office on behalf of the affected students. Brandon Lewis has an automated reply which dates from before the election "Parliament has now been dissolved until the General Election. Therefore there are currently no Members of Parliament. Incoming emails to this account may be received and read, however this email address is only being used to respond to urgent constituency case work" But maybe the staff would take notice if there are a lot of emails with similar headings such as "visa extensions for students at Newark College of Violin Making and Repair" |
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24 Jun 17 - 12:45 PM (#3862726) Subject: Newark college instrumental crafts open day From: Felipa the aforementioned open day covers many instruments https://www.lincolncollege.ac.uk/our-colleges/newark-college/events-at-newark/newark-musical-instrument-crafts "Newark Musical Instrument Crafts would like to welcome you to a showcase of student craftsmanship and precision, through examples of instruments they have made and restored as part of their course. "As well as the instruments themselves, on display will be specialist tools that the students have designed and engineered themselves. Guest musicians will also test some of the instruments and giving feedback to students during the day. There will also be opportunities to speak with both graduating students and tutors about their experiences. "We'd like to welcome all who are interested in musical instrument crafts, including both public and trade, and encourage those interested in the craftsmanship and courses available to pop along. "Location: Violin Making and Repair, Viola and Cello Making Newark College Violin School, Kirkgate, Newark Woodwind Instrument Making and Repair, Piano Tuning and Restoration and Classical and Steel Stringed Guitar Making Newark College Piano School, Appleton Gate, Newark For further information contact 01522 876305 " |
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25 Jun 17 - 11:46 AM (#3862836) Subject: support for Newark School of Violin Makin students From: Felipa see also: https://www.facebook.com/1559373144305549/photos/a.1568771213365742.1073741828.1559373144305549/1915831901993003/ "Due to an unhappy coincidence of a poor rating in the OFSTED assessment of Lincoln College which manages the course and a tightening of UK immigration rules, four students at the course have been told that they cannot complete their studies. "It's now the chance of all who are angered by this unintended consequence of legislation to do something positive to try to get this decision changed. I've listed here the main points of the problem, and contact information of all those who should be lobbied for change. Please do take some time to send messages, and also if you do so, reply to this post to say that you did so that we know what sort of response there has been. Thank you for your support. "BACKGROUND FOR YOUR MESSAGES: - The Newark School of Violin Making is managed by Lincoln College. Lincoln College scored poorly in its 2016 OFSTED assessment (although the musical instrument craft courses at Newark were not covered by this inspection), the result being that none of the courses it runs are eligible for international student visas from September 2017. - The reasoning behind this is that some poorly-performing and sometimes bogus colleges, particularly language schools, act as a front for immigration by those who otherwise would not be eligible for visas, and this is why courses can be closed to international applicants partway through the course. - It's a gross injustice to current international students to deny them the possibility of completing their studies when they have invested time and money and there is no doubt of the validity of their course. - It is a grave slur on the reputation of the violin school, that it is tarred with the same brush as courses run in Lincoln, given its huge international reputation and success in producing violin makers with worldwide reputations over decades. ...." |
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25 Jun 17 - 12:21 PM (#3862837) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Nigel Parsons - It is a grave slur on the reputation of the violin school, that it is tarred with the same brush as courses run in Lincoln, given its huge international reputation and success in producing violin makers with worldwide reputations over decades. ...." Hardly. It is more likely to be the case that they can only take international students because of their link to the Lincoln College Group. But please don't allow facts to spoil a good rant . . . |
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25 Jun 17 - 12:30 PM (#3862839) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: punkfolkrocker I hear Indonesia has a tradition for fine violin crafting.. Maybe there are good colleges there, or in other nations, for international students to consider applying to.. ..so they can forget about trying to study in this piss pot little Britain of ukip pandering bureaucracy.. |
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25 Jun 17 - 04:18 PM (#3862874) Subject: visas for students Newark School of Violin Making From: Felipa Nigel - Your reasoning is faulty. Yes, students needed the sponsorship of Lincoln College to get Tier 2 student visas because that's the way the system works, but international students didnt come because of Lincoln College. They came because of the special course offered by Newark; apparently the only Lincoln students currently affected by Home Office policy re student visas are studying violin making. I hardly think people overseas have been talking about Lincoln College; they are looking for a special kind of course and Newwark School of Violin Making and Repair are offering it. If the Newark schools of instrument making were allowed their own status to sponsor visas for international students they could probably succeed. My take on the matter is that it is up to Lincoln College and Newark School to sort out Ofsted and Tier 4 status* as it affects future intake, but that there is a more immediately urgent call to let students who are already attending the course to continue. I know at least one of the students has completed 3 years of the course and just has one more year to go. Large numbers of people calling for those visas to be extended may have a positive result. (*in future, the Violin Varnish fb page mentions there is a proposal for Hull Uni. to oversee a degree for the violin course in future. There are both merits and drawbacks to such a course, which may make it harder for some students to participate. I know that when a language course I enrolled in was changed from H.N.D to degree status, I found the course less what I wanted. It became less orientated towards practical use of the language.) |
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25 Jun 17 - 05:32 PM (#3862882) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST Perhaps the Newark school should associate itself with a reputable college then. |
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26 Jun 17 - 04:11 AM (#3862922) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Nigel Parsons Felipa: My reasoning is sound, even if it doesn't agree with your preconceptions. As long as the Newark school is linked with Lincoln College then they can only get visas for their student via that establishment. And if Lincoln College lose their status then that has a knock-on effect. If the Newark School had not had a link to Lincoln College the students would not even have gone this far. A possible change to getting Hull Uni to oversee the course would possibly give the school a better link, and chance of survival as an international supplier, but you seem even to be against this. |
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26 Jun 17 - 04:28 AM (#3862924) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,henryp A notable old boy, Chris Leslie of Fairport Convention; From 1981-1983 Chris Leslie studied violin making, under the watchful eye of maker Patrick Jowett, at the Newark School of Violin Making in Nottinghamshire, England. He currently plays the second fiddle he made at Newark on stage. |
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26 Jun 17 - 10:54 AM (#3862978) Subject: Newark college of violin making petition From: Felipa there is now a petition to the home office, simply calling for the four students to be allowed to stay to complete their course https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/don-t-deport-the-newark-four |
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26 Jun 17 - 11:10 AM (#3862981) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: punkfolkrocker Unadorned of legal complexities and jargon.. This is just a petty spiteful disruption of the lives of a mere handful of individuals.. Hardly a threat to our nation and way of life...!!!! There was a similar case in the last couple of years. I recall, a schoolgirl, probably up north, or Scotland maybe. Public uproar in mass media & TV news might have settled that positively... can't remember the outcome...??? |
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26 Jun 17 - 11:18 AM (#3862985) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: GUEST,Jon Don't know about that one but there was this one this year. |
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30 Jun 17 - 01:23 PM (#3863600) Subject: student visas for violin makers From: Felipa the 4 students are sorted, as I hoped they would be: http://newarkadvertiser.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/international-students-told-they-can-stay-after-all There is leeway in the rules, the Home Office can make exceptions. There will still not be new visas for intending students until Lincoln College regains Tier 4 status or another sponship arrangement is sorted. I expect that will happen but probably not in time for students who had intended to begin instrument crafts courses next term. |
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30 Jun 17 - 02:28 PM (#3863613) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Big Al Whittle i think you should be able to get a degree in cheese making. |
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30 Jun 17 - 07:01 PM (#3863667) Subject: cheese making From: Felipa 2010 "According to a newsletter from Sopexa, the body which promotes French food and wine, a new university diploma in 'Cheese and Heritage" has been created by l'Université François Rabelais de Tours and the Institut Européen d'Histoire et des Cultures de l'Alimentation." http://thecheeselover.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/first-cheese-school-now-cheese.html 2013, Australia: A NSW cheesemaker says he can't expand his booming business because he can't find staff. John Christensen, from New England Cheese at Nowendoc, milks 90 goats and 80 Jersey cows and manufactures products for 30 Sydney supermarkets. He's got five positions vacant and has been forced to look overseas to fill them. "Our biggest problem is that universities, Melbourne University (Gilbert Chandler campus) and Charles Stuart at Wagga Wagga, closed down their food technology courses for cheese making," he said. "There's nowhere else, no TAFE colleges, no-one is set up at the moment for training." http://www.abc.net.au/site-archive/rural/news/content/201302/s3698555.htm You can study cheese making at artisnal schools, but it is not atypical for cheese makers to have degrees in food technology. |
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01 Jul 17 - 04:53 AM (#3863706) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: Richard Mellish > There was a similar case in the last couple of years. I recall, a schoolgirl, probably up north, or Scotland maybe. Public uproar in mass media & TV news might have settled that positively... can't remember the outcome...??? < "Torn from her family and forced onto a flight" in April 2014. There was a petition to Theresa May, as Home Secretary at the time, asking her to intervene. See here May could have done so but chose to ignore the petition, thus demonstrating how much she cares for human rights. One possible result of Brexit is UK citizens ceasing to enjoy the human rights guaranteed by the EU. |
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01 Jul 17 - 01:50 PM (#3863784) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: punkfolkrocker currently available on BBC iplayer catch up: "Don't Deport Me I'm British" I've yet to watch it, or read this review, so offer no opinion. But soon maybe... |
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01 Jul 17 - 01:55 PM (#3863785) Subject: RE: UK Home Office attacks violin making From: punkfolkrocker bollox.. that bluey didn't work... try again... Independant: Last night's TV review: Don't Deport Me I'm British (BBC3) The programme tackled an important issue, treated it as dispassionately and impartially as possible http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/tv-review-dont-deport-me-im-british-bbc3-a-fine-piece-of-old-fashioned-television-journalism-a7808946.html No.. for some reason blue clicky won't convert this link...??? |