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24 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM (#3890076) Subject: Songs about conflict from other side From: Sarah the flute No this isn't a request for songs about fighting ghosts ...sorry! My friend who works in an international school library in Germany is trying to find books, poems and SONGS that have been written about the losing side or "other side" in conflicts around the world. She doesn't want anything about the two world wars but other conflicts Any suggestions would be great I have considered Irish Rebel songs and some Napoleonic songs such as The Bonny Bunch of Roses and Isle of St Helena Cheers Sarah |
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24 Nov 17 - 05:52 AM (#3890084) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,Gerry Ballad of the Green Berets? |
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24 Nov 17 - 06:16 AM (#3890089) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,David Carter (UK) The Bastard of Normandy, as sung by the late Janet Jones. Written long after the events of course. |
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24 Nov 17 - 08:05 AM (#3890100) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Brian Peters |
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24 Nov 17 - 09:31 AM (#3890115) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jack Campin There are a shitload of Turkish songs about losing WW1 - hours of nonstop gloom. Would that do? A great instrumental tune about a total and almost forgotten military catastrophe is the Swedish "Karolinermarschen". The sixteenth-century song "Italia mia" (done by a lot of Renaissance music groups) seems to have been written to mark the annihilation of Italy as a nation-state in the invasion of the 1520s. There are some very fine laments for Che Guevara - "Hasta siempre" from Latin America and "Guevara mat" from a North African Arab composer (that one will be a bastard to play if you don't know the idiom). I posted here on the centenary of the Battle of Gorizia - there were three sides involved and arguably all of them lost. (The Slovenians definitely lost, with their city blasted to rubble, but their song isn't as interesting as the Italian and Hungarian ones). Sometimes more indirect statements are made. One of the most popular songs among Palestinians is Fairuz's "Nassam alayna al-Hawa", but it isn't about military defeat, it's non-specifically about the nostalgia of exile (and wasn't even by a Palestinian). |
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24 Nov 17 - 11:17 AM (#3890147) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Dave Sutherland "Dunlavin Green" Ireland 1798 |
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24 Nov 17 - 01:24 PM (#3890180) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (Robbie Robertson, 1966) Written a full century after the American Civil War, and by a Canadian no less, it's still considered one of the better songs written from the Rebel perspective. Joan Baez had a pretty good run with it in 1971 (#3 on Billboard Hot 100.) YT: Joan Baez: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down |
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24 Nov 17 - 01:33 PM (#3890182) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jim Dixon This may not be the kind of thing you have in mind, but Johnny Horton recorded two versions of his hit song THE BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS, one for release in the US, and another intended for the Commonweath countries (although it's not the version some of our Australian Mudcatters remember hearing, so maybe this plan was not put into effect?). The Commonwealth version shifts the point of view to the British side and calls the Americans "bloomin' rebels" where the original had "bloody British." Also, "Jackson" is changed to "Packenham" but mostly only pronouns are changed: "they" is changed to "we" and so on. I just posted the Commonwealth version here. A good copy of Horton's American version can be found here.. |
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24 Nov 17 - 01:35 PM (#3890183) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jim Carroll Probably the best known Irish one Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna Words: Translated from the Irish by Canon Patrick Sheehan (1852- 1913) After Aughrim's great disaster when our foe, in sooth, was master It was you who first plunged in and swam The Shannon's boiling flood. And through Sliabh Bloom's dark passes when you led your Gallowglasses Although the hungry Saxon wolves were howling for your blood. And as we crossed Tipperary we rived the Clan O' Leary And we drove a creach before us as our horsemen onward came. With our swords and spears we gored them as through flood and tide we bore them. Ah but Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game. It was long, long we kept the hillside and our couch hard by the rillside With the sturdy knotted oaken boughs our curtain overhead. And the summer sun we laughed at, oh the winter snow we scoffed at And we trusted in our long bright swords to win us daily bread. Till the Dutchman's troops came round us, in fire and sword they bound us, They blazed the woods and mountains till the very clouds were flame. Yet our sharpened swords cut through them, to their very hearts we hewed them Ah but Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game. So here's a health to yours and my king, the sovereign of our liking And to Sarsfield, underneath whose flag, we'll cast once more a chance. For the morning dawn will wing us all across the seas and bring us, To take a stand and to wield a brand among the sons of France. And though we part in sorrow still, Se?n ? Duibhir a chara , Our prayer is God save Ireland and pour blessings on her name. May her sons be true when needed, may they never fail as we did, For Se?n ? Duibhir A' Ghleanna you were worsted in the game. NICE RENDITION HERE Jim Carroll |
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24 Nov 17 - 01:57 PM (#3890192) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: The Sandman battle of bosworth field https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHql-Taq8DA |
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24 Nov 17 - 02:37 PM (#3890208) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jack Campin "The Battle of Maldon" (Anglo-Saxon poem on losing a battle to the Norse). "Mac Crimmon Will Never Return" (partly faked by Walter Scott but still pretty impressive - look for Sheila Chandra's hair-raising version). Jose Rizal's "The Valedictory" ("Crown and deep of my sorrows"), written when he was about to be executed by the Spanish for leading the Philippine resistance. "Els Segadors", now the national anthem of Catalonia, about their defeat by Spain in the 17th century. |
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24 Nov 17 - 02:54 PM (#3890214) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jim Carroll MacCrimmond OR TRY THIS Jim Carroll |
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24 Nov 17 - 03:11 PM (#3890218) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: meself Un Canadien errant. In the voice of a 'Patriote' in exile after the 1837 rebellion in Quebec. There are a couple of songs - or variations of one original - by/about Louis Riel, after his defeat in the 1885 rebellion. |
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24 Nov 17 - 04:22 PM (#3890229) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jack Campin A small warning: songs about defeat have a way of turning into anthemic expressions of vicious nationalist resentment. That has happened to a lot of Irish songs, it's happened on occasion with Scottish Jacobite ones, and it happens on an industrial scale in the Balkans. Don't feed such tendencies. |
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25 Nov 17 - 01:39 AM (#3890271) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST No shortage of material Sarah, I would think that the most songs written at the time about any conflict "from the other side" were written by the side that came in second. Songs about conflict written many years after tend to fall into the traps of hindsight and wishful mythology. Jack Campin's small warning above is very well stated and extremely apposite. |
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25 Nov 17 - 03:39 AM (#3890273) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jim Carroll "That has happened to a lot of Irish songs,"#Not just Irish songs The Scots, 'The Haughs of Cromdale' is the result of a defeat of the Jacobite army due to the officers getting drunk and forgetting to place sentries on watch, leading to an undignified route by the entire army. The Scots ballad maker found it necessary to invent a second battle in which the tables were turned and the English received the thrashing Any defeated nation is capable of turning defeat into victory in this way - our politicians are still doing so regularly. In most of the Irish songs, particularly the Fenian ones of 19798, 1845 and 1867, they make no pretence of their defeats, but use them as inspirations to carry on the struggle. Jim Carroll |
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25 Nov 17 - 04:06 AM (#3890276) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jim Carroll "19798" Should be 1798 of course Jim Carroll |
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26 Nov 17 - 04:51 AM (#3890462) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Ged Fox "have a way of turning into anthemic expressions of vicious nationalist resentment" It's a fine line between maintaining dignity, identity or whatever after defeat and perpetuating a sulky resentment. For example, "Flowers of the Forest" (in Jeannie Elliot's version), words more or less contemporaneous with the Hanoverian oppression of Scotland, is one of the world's great songs of the defeated. "Flower of Scotland", on the other hand, is just a whinging cringing expression of vicious nationalist resentment. |
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26 Nov 17 - 09:28 AM (#3890494) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jack Campin Flower of Scotland is actually about a victory, it just whines about it so annoyingly you get the impression we lost. |
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27 Nov 17 - 02:26 AM (#3890621) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Two American poems: Evangeline, A Tale of Acadie, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, 1847. Also written a century after events and not by the subject losing side (Acadian) as it were. Throwing the Wanga (St. John's Eve), M.E.M. Davis, 1894. Reconstruction era Louisiana. Lyrics here: https://mudcat.org/detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=3867037 |
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27 Nov 17 - 05:19 AM (#3890649) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Sarah the flute Wow This is an impressive list. Thank you so much everyone. Sorry I've been away gigging over the weekend so haven't had a chance to catch up with this. There is certainly some great stuff here to pass on and something a bit different for my friend's classes to get their teeth into Sarah |
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28 Nov 17 - 10:36 AM (#3890941) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,henryp Sir James Radcliffe, Earl of Derwentwater, (1689-1716) spent part of his youth as the companion of the young James VIII at Saint-Germain-en-Laye. He received permission to return to England in 1709 and quickly established himself as the leader of the Jacobites in Northumberland. Following his capture at Preston and execution in London he became a tragic hero of songs and ballads. Derwentwater's Farewell Farewell to pleasant Dilston Hall, My father’s ancient seat; A stranger now must call thee his, Which gars my heart to greet. Farewell each friendly well-known face, My heart has held so dear: My tenants now must leave their lands, Or hold their lives in fear. Lord Allenwater/Lord Derwentwater The King has wrote a long letter And sealed it up with gold And sent it unto Lord Allenwater To read it if he could. The first two lines Lord Allenwater read They struck him with surprise And the next two lines Lord Allenwater read Made tears fall from his eyes. |
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28 Nov 17 - 10:44 AM (#3890945) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,henryp "Viva la Quinta Brigada" (listed as "Viva la Quince Brigada" in later recordings) is a Christy Moore song about the Irishmen who fought in the Spanish Civil War against Franco. The title was inspired by a Spanish song about the war, 'Viva la Quince Brigada'. Moore wrote this song choosing to focus on the Irish socialist volunteers (who in later years became known as the Connolly Column) who were a small contingent within the 15th International Brigade. The song was inspired by Spanish Civil War veteran Michael O'Riordan's book Connolly Column. |
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28 Nov 17 - 10:49 AM (#3890948) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: Jack Campin The other familiar Northumbrian Jacobite number is "Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Among Them All", though Fenwick's role was in a series of conspiracies rather than military conflict like Derwentwater. |
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28 Nov 17 - 10:54 AM (#3890951) Subject: RE: Songs about conflict from other side From: GUEST,henryp The Saint Patrick's Battalion formed and led by John Riley, was a unit of 175 to several hundred immigrants (accounts vary) and expatriates of European descent who fought as part of the Mexican Army against the United States in the Mexican–American War of 1846–8. San Patricios on BBC See also The Chieftains - San Patricio Album |