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08 Jan 00 - 05:22 PM (#160071) Subject: Helen Creighton and folksongs From: B. Is anyone familiar with folklorist Helen Crieghton? I'm looking for information on the idea of cultural selection and the "sugar coating" of Traditional songs from Nova Scotia Canada. This is in regards to the creation of an anti-moderism movement in the 1930's in order to icrease tourism to the area. A movement which was, and still is successful. Any information or thoughts would be appreciated, Thanks. |
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08 Jan 00 - 05:58 PM (#160090) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: Peter T. Check out the Forum search (up on the left above the thread in the pull down menu. We have had a lot of threads about Helen here (a great heroine in these parts). yours, Peter T. |
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08 Jan 00 - 11:49 PM (#160216) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca I don't quite understand the question, B.
From what I have read of Helen's work, she collected what she heard. AS she heard it.
I read the biography, actualy a couple of them, on Helen Creighton, and her efforts were to keep the music as it was when she heard it.
Also, to explain further, I joined, last year, the Helen Creighton Society, and am a board member. Clary Croft is a past president, and he was a personal friend of hers. Also on the board are several of her neices, and grand-neices. She herself never had children. For that matter, she never married. |
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09 Jan 00 - 12:02 AM (#160223) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Hmmm. Upon reflection, I wonder if you are referring to the situation where Dr. Creighton did not publish anything with some form of "risque" element in it. This taken in light of her upbringing, is quite understandable. She was brought up in an affluent society, as part of "society". For more information, contact Nimbus Publishing. Clary Croft's recent biography of Dr. Creighton, was published by them. |
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09 Jan 00 - 11:19 AM (#160327) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: George, I know little about Helen Creighton myself, but I am attempting to learn, the lack of "coulourful" material is infact what I am interested in. This is for a research project I am undertaking in my fourth year history seminar. I am inquiring because I am aware that her research, along with that of Mary Black has helped generate the image of Nova Scotia which we are all familliar with. Perhaps I should have asked if there is any other collections of song which might not portray such a sanitized image of the folk. Thanks, -B. |
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09 Jan 00 - 11:33 AM (#160331) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: dick greenhaus Two major problems involving "unsanitized" folksong existed in the thirties and forties (and, indeed, to a great extent, up through the sixties): First, nobody would publish "dirty" songs, particularly in a scholarly-type publication. This was a particular sore point with Vance Randolph, who really tried (unsuccessfully) to have bawdy material included in his fine Ozark Folk Song collection. The second point is that many of the great collectors of that era were women, and it was very difficult for a woman, in those Victorian-influenced days, to get anyone to sing a "dirty" song to her. Upon reading what I just wrote,I guess I should add a third problem: Blue material just wasn't considered worthy of study until recently (unless Child included it). Ed Cray's "The Erotic Muse", Logsdon's "Whorehouse Bells Were Ringing", and Randolph's book whose name escapes me at the moment,are all recent, and are probably the first books that dealt with this material as folklore to be studied, although a few collections of off-color songs had been published previously. |
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09 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM (#160332) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca That's it exactly, Dick. In Clary's biography, it quotes information from Helen's journals stating exactly that. The bawdy songs, people wouldn't sing. The Risque ones, she couldn't get published. Remember, most of her work was partially underwritten by the National Museum of Canada, and the Library of Congress at different times. The publications which were non museum types were from University press organizations. Back in the 30's through the 60's when Helen was collecting, it wasn't heard of to have that "sort of thing" published. If you were looking for Union(communist) material, I believe Edith Fowke had some publications with material of that vein included. Clary mentions an incident whereby Edith Fowke had sent a copy of a book she was publishing which contained some union song or other, and Helen was extremely incensed over the inclusion of this sort of song. Seems to me we've had discussions about that type of "sanitization" in the forum here. You might see if you can locate those threads. |
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09 Jan 00 - 03:06 PM (#160423) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: Abby Sale Dick, Randolph is known as & subtitled "The Unprintable Collection" Vol 1 is Roll Me in Your Arms and vol 2 (surprise!) is Blow the Candles Out. I agree that all three, published in the (19)90's are the first-of-kind. Amazing! cosidering the obscene material that had no trouble being published all those years. But the notion of females and bawdy material is misleading, I believe. It's both Victorian and Eisenhowera (well, within American Puritanical years' thinking.) The point is that bawdy songs are, in the main, transmitted by women. I don't know of statistical studies done but a look at Randolph's respondants or Gordon's in the (still unpublished) Inferno collection reveals a very high percent of women. It may be that the really obscene songs, "Christopher Colombo" eg, may be more likely to be from men but the women certainly do their share. My impression in Scotland was that this might be true there also, both for urban and source sigers. I asked the Scottish scholar Sheila Douglas her feeling and she agreed. She felt bawdy songs were so much within womens' province she wrote and had published a full book of her own self-wrote bawdy songs. Being very mystical, this may go back to the old notion of women being the sensual/sexual sex, not men. It's only for brief periods (I think) the roles are reversed. In reading one of Creighton's "sister" collectors in the northeast, Fannie Eckstorm, I felt that the songs were sung to her - she was not able to publish. Eckstorm worked in the out back with Maine loggers, tromping the woods where no woman had trod before. Logger sang dirty songs as did any group of single-sex workers out for months on their own - sailors, cowboys... But she refers to them, same as does Lomax and others. So, George, as to Creighton, how bawdy is "bawdy?" How mild is "risque?" In Orlando, if I sing the ballads "Castration of the Strawberry Roan" or "Charlotte the Harlot" or "Kafoosalem" females walk out of the room. So, pragmatically (not legally) in central Florida, they're obscene. If I sing "Blow the Candles Out" nobody blinks, so that's pragmatically risque. If I sing "Bonnie Black Hare" (there's a version in Randolph nearly identical to Carthy's & squoze to the more singable "Molly Mallone") then people consciously & verbally opt to hear it as a hunting song and "allow" it. As to the other thread, What's Allowed in Your Club, bawdy ain't allowed. Sigh! |
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09 Jan 00 - 04:20 PM (#160442) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: Dave (the ancient mariner) I think a lot of Helen's material would have been lost for ever, had she not written them down. So we still owe her a great deal for preserving the songs that she did. Oral tradition is fine, but the Nintendo and Cable TV generations do not spend much time singing these days. The politically correct world we live in destroys such occasions. (being the recipient of the wrath of the "Correct" for mild offences I would not care to get caught for singing a bawdy song in public) Fortunately, it runs in my family my Mum and Dad were both in the Navy during the war; and I have fond memories of learning that my Mum had to remind Dad some of the words to Eskimo Nell, A Sailors Farewell to his Horse, and Christmas Eve in the Harem. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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13 Jan 00 - 12:38 PM (#162216) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: james I don't get the question... What is the "current image" of Nova Scotia that we cultivate for Tourists ? Sound more than slightly patronizing... please clarify |
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13 Jan 00 - 12:51 PM (#162224) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: aldus surely legitimate research cannot be based on such an insulting premise....namely that Nova Scotia is a quaint little backwater that delayed the modern age in order to attract tourists. Some people have been to Disneyland once too often. |
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13 Jan 00 - 02:12 PM (#162257) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: Willie-O Thing is, that's exactly the image they're using for that very purpose now. (I'm thinking of the TV commercials I saw last year featuring fiddler Kendra McGillivray). I can sure think of better reasons to "delay the modern age" than to bring tourists. Personally, I say, more power to 'em when a cultural icon such as Ashley MacIsaac, or a movie such as "Margaret's Museum", deviates from the "noble ancient Celts" tartan stereotypes that have been marketed as the real Cape Breton. It's the MARKETING that lies, we know it's NOT REALLY a quaint little backwater of happy fisherpeople, singing coalminers, and pit ponies rescued by small children... Willie-O |
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13 Jan 00 - 05:02 PM (#162328) Subject: RE: Helen Creighton, and Nova Scotia From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca In some respects it is that image we use, but it's not just cultivated. I have the image of our province as a bit of a cultural haven for those who responds to it. People who come here for the first time, whether US, European, Iceland, etc, seem to go away with that feeling that we are a population who will respond with pleasure and helpfulness, as in any small town. We may not conciously make ourselves over into that image, I really think we DO react that way. As for the bawdy tunes/songs, I'll ask around. The HC Society will have a meeting at the end of the month. Maybe someone can tell me. A couple of other songwriters/singers who have researched the HC Collection may hold more clues. Will check with them too.
Personally, I would prefer NOT to hear them. |