Identify tune??

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Identify tune??

19 Nov 22 - 10:55 PM (#4158144)
Subject: Identify tune??
From: Joe Offer

Somebody sent me this MIDI - can anyone identify it?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao-x_q-EpOQc8UgCRR5fzjbbeQDL?e=AOLv44

Here's his email:

20 Nov 22 - 01:30 AM (#4158146)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Joe Offer

Helen says that my link worked, so I undeleted the thread. The link above is to an MP3 that doesn't work very well for me. This is to to the original MIDI, which doesn't work at all for me on OneDrive:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ao-x_q-EpOQc8UfT-1n4mKof9hH-?e=sY0lra

Those who are following my FTP misfortunes know that I no longer have access to my Website, http://joe-offer.com/, so I can't update it or post new Mudcat MIDI files there. So, for the time being, I am posting Mudcat stuff at Microsoft's OneDrive, and hoping that it will work.

And I still would dearly love to get a call from somebody in the US who can talk me through getting FTP to work on my Website, since my Web hosting company deleted the browser-based File Manager utility I had been using.

-Joe- (joe@mudcat.org)

20 Nov 22 - 01:42 AM (#4158147)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Thanks Joe.

The tune vaguely sounds like the chorus of "Brother Can You Spare a Dime?" to me. Could be totally wrong of course.

I sort of hear the melody for this part:

Once I built a railroad, I made it run, made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad; Now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime?

20 Nov 22 - 05:46 AM (#4158158)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: GUEST

Context would help. The closest I can get for now is:

Starkens Polska

I think it's close, but no cigar, though.

20 Nov 22 - 09:33 AM (#4158165)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: cnd

The beginning sounds kind of like fetches of Dvorak's Symphony No. 9, From the New World, around the intro -- see https://youtu.be/O_tPb4JFgmw?t=81. The tune sounds so dark and in a minor key(?) I feel it may be classical. I know there are, of course, folk songs out there in minor keys, but this sounds like a weird one.

(PS, Joe -- to get the link to work, I had to download the song. The internal dropbox video player gives an error, but if I downloaded it, it worked mostly fine. And VLC wouldn't play the file [or rather, it would try and produce no sound] but Windows Media Player would).

20 Nov 22 - 10:09 AM (#4158168)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Steve Gardham

Yes, once you get 'Brother can you spare a dime' in your head it's difficult to shake it off, but if you keep humming it over at least I get. The Death of Queen Jane. Beautiful tune and very folky to me. I'd love to hear it sung!

20 Nov 22 - 12:03 PM (#4158180)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

As Guest said above, context would help.

These are what I call "the usual questions":

To help with the search could you provide more information, please?

Do you remember any more of the lyrics? Please post what you remember to help with internet searches.

When did you hear it or see it in written music collections? If it was in written music collections, what sort of collections are you likely to have seen it in?

Was it recorded? Did you hear it on the radio, see it on TV, hear it on vinyl, CD, digital, YouTube, etc?

Did you hear it live?

Singer(s) male, female, a group, solo?
Musicians? what instruments were used?

Lively, haunting, slow, fast, dance tune, etc, etc?

Any more information would be helpful.

20 Nov 22 - 12:56 PM (#4158185)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Info about Brother, Can You Spare a Dime?

The intro to the article:

"Brother, Can You Spare a Dime? is one of the best-known American songs of the Great Depression. Written by lyricist Yip Harburg and composer Jay Gorney, it was part of the 1932 musical revue Americana; the melody is based on a Russian-Jewish lullaby."

Under the section Composition and lyrical interpretation:

"According to Harold Meyerson and Ernest Harburg, '[r]hythmically and melodically it sounds like a Jewish chant.'[1] An article in Tablet magazine suggested that the melody was similar to Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem."

20 Nov 22 - 02:42 PM (#4158191)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

ISRAEL'S National Anthem - HATIKVAH with English and Hebrew lyrics

22 Nov 22 - 08:52 AM (#4158364)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Jack Campin

The oldest known version of that tune is "La Mantovana" published by Gasparo Zanetti in 1645. It's quite possible that all of the dozens of later variants derive from that one starting point.

22 Nov 22 - 01:26 PM (#4158394)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: GUEST

Hi and thanks to everyone who responded. I'm afraid it's definitely not Brother Can You Spare a Dime, or Hatikvah, or La Mantovana.

In reply to the request for more details, I have very little. It's a tune my wife used to play on mandolin, though she only knows the first ten bars or so. She picked it up from an Irish folk band back in the 80s and has never known the title. We have no recording of it, no idea of any lyrics, or even if lyrics exist ...

The best I can say is I'm pretty sure it's Irish.

I sure hope someone can identify it, coz she'd be completely rapt, and I'd get a lot of air miles :)

22 Nov 22 - 02:07 PM (#4158401)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Thanks for the extra information, Guest.

I was just about to say this after reading Jack Campin's post and then found your post, but I'll say it anyway.

As I said earlier, ""The tune vaguely sounds like the chorus of "Brother Can You Spare a Dime?" to me. Could be totally wrong of course."

It only reminded me of that song because when I listened to the MIDI file I could hear the the word "once" in my head and a bit of a melody and then I had to do the old memory trick to identify that tune. Then on reading a bit of information about the Brother tune I found that it is supposedly based on the same tune as the Israeli national anthem so then the search led down a completely different path.

I was also thinking that it might be useful if someone knows how to convert a MIDI file to ABC notation because then we could post that here and more people could possibly identify the tune. Unfortunately I don't know how to convert it to ABC. There may be an ABC wizard here who knows the trick(s), hopefully a MIDI to ABC converter somewhere online.

I have to say that the last country of origin I would have thought of is Ireland but that might be the clue we needed.

And, in case you didn't know, one of Mudcat's key aims is to help people to get a lot of air miles from their spouse, so we are at your service.

22 Nov 22 - 02:09 PM (#4158402)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Steve Gardham

Did you check out 'Death of Queen Jane'? That's been recorded by various artistes. Try the Mainly Norfolk site for versions recorded. If it was an Irish folk band then chances are it's a folk song!!

22 Nov 22 - 02:26 PM (#4158403)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Steve's suggestion: The Death of Queen Jane

Lots of info on that page and the video shows Karine Polwart performing the song.

22 Nov 22 - 04:48 PM (#4158424)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

I was just listening to one of my Alan Stivell CD's and there are a few of his tracks which have an unusual melody and rhythm.

As Wiki says, "Alan Stivell is a French, Breton and Celtic musician and singer, songwriter, recording artist, and master of the Celtic harp. From the early 1970s, he revived global interest in the Celtic harp and Celtic music as part of world music."

I was thinking that a tune played by an Irish folk band in the 1980's doesn't preclude the possibility that it is not an Irish tune. It could be Breton, or from a number of different cultural sources.

I'm not saying that it is necessarily from Alan Stivell, but he and other folk musicians were sharing tunes from before the 1980's.

22 Nov 22 - 04:57 PM (#4158425)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Sorry, and I forgot to say that when I listen to the tune I keep expecting to hear a second part/B part. It seems incomplete to me.

22 Nov 22 - 05:06 PM (#4158426)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Steve Gardham

Hi, Helen, that's exactly what I thought.

22 Nov 22 - 06:19 PM (#4158438)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Thanks Stanron. Your secret wizard power worked brilliantly.

The only difference from the MIDI file provided is the fourth last note which is a low E (E above middle C) on the MIDI and not a B as in the ABC Notation.

22 Nov 22 - 06:27 PM (#4158439)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Me again, I listened to The Death of Queen Jane but it doesn't sound to me like it's the same tune.

22 Nov 22 - 09:05 PM (#4158451)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Jack Campin

Read James Merrywether's article here, starts p24.

Bagpipe Society article

22 Nov 22 - 11:17 PM (#4158455)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Whoa! That's a lot of information to take in, Jack Campin! Thank you.

I'm going to take some time to read through it and try to make sense of it, and also listen to some of the tunes mentioned in the article.

This one is the first one I listened to and it is similar:

I Had a Little Nut Tree

And the one Jack mentioned previously:

La Mantovana

(Note: I searched for these songs on Google and found these versions. They are probably not exactly the same as the versions shown in the article.)

23 Nov 22 - 01:52 AM (#4158456)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

The relevant melody from about 1 min 10, for about 2 minutes:

Smetana Má vlast (My Country) : No. 2, Vltava (Moldau)

I'm speechless, Jack. So many tunes with similar melodies from so many different countries.

And I will never forget the first time I heard Smetana's Vltava (Moldau) in a music class in high school. To me it is the perfect example of how music reflects life. Even just the gentle musical representation of the water and waves at the beginning before the melody starts.

[Off topic, but similar to the concept of that article, have you read this Mudcat thread about the spread of a song across at least half of the land now known as Australia by our First Nations people, before any modern music recording technology?

Wanji-wanji indigenous Australian song ]

23 Nov 22 - 12:33 PM (#4158501)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Long Firm Freddie

A search on Folk Tune Finder brings up a number of tunes that sound the same but have different names.

Worth a browse through: Folk tune search

Some of the names are Nessa the Mover, Riding on a Load of Hay and Gan Ainm.

LFF

23 Nov 22 - 12:39 PM (#4158502)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: The Sandman

riding on a wagon of hay is a tune i play, composed by liz carroll. it is listed on session .org

23 Nov 22 - 04:11 PM (#4158520)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Steve Gardham

Just a little reminder, folks, IRISH FOLK BAND IN THE 80s. LFF has the right idea.

23 Nov 22 - 04:34 PM (#4158521)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Stanron

The first quarter of Nessa the Mover matches the given sample quite well bet the rest of it is not a match.

It's just my opinion but the second half of the tune in question is the most distinctive. None of the Folk Tune Finder results come anywhere near it.

23 Nov 22 - 05:18 PM (#4158523)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Whether either of these are the same tune, I don't know. The first part of each tune is the same as our mystery tune.

I looked up Tune ID#5098 (Nessa the Mover)

" Titles ? given to this tune in the sources listed below (plus notes of mine about this tune):

"Nessa the Mover (3rd in set The Dingle Berries on Lu 6 and Lu 7) (1st part same as 1st part of Captain Moonlight's Army #3840) (composed by Brendan Larrisey)"

Tune ID#3840 (Captain Moonlight's Army)

"Titles ? given to this tune in the sources listed below (plus notes of mine about this tune):

"Captain Moonlight's Army / John with the Light Brown Hair / Downey / Downey's / Polca Áine / Riding on a Load of Hay / Anne's Polka / West Kerry / Séamus Cussen's (3rd in set Brendan Begley's Polcas on TEdey 1) (also in A Dorian) (1st part same as the 1st parts of Riding on a Load of Hay #6370 and Nessa the Mover #5098, and Ned Connor's #7583 and - not included here - the transcriptions Ceilidh House Polka in book M2 and Gan Ainm in CRE 4 #78; 2nd part same as 2nd part of #6179; also compare 1st part with 1st part of Galway Belle #443 and with 1st part of Riding on a Load of Hay #4297)"

Captain Moonlight's Army - first tune in this set by Slane

Steve, if the tune was played by an Irish band it's not necessarily true that every single tune they played was Irish. Chances are high that it was true, but the folk process tends to include tunes from other countries or cultures as well, and as an example Alan Stivell, Breton harper, included sets of music from Ireland and Scotland on his albums.

23 Nov 22 - 05:41 PM (#4158526)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

As quoted from irishtune.info re: Tune ID#3840 (Captain Moonlight's Army)

"...also compare 1st part with 1st part of Galway Belle #443 and with 1st part of Riding on a Load of Hay #4297)"

Riding on a Load of Hay

24 Nov 22 - 03:15 AM (#4158552)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: The Sandman

riding on a load of hay,as i understand, the correct title is "riding on a wagon of hay" is a composition by by chicago fiddler. liz carroll

24 Nov 22 - 06:00 AM (#4158572)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: GUEST

No it wasn't. She recorded it, but didn't compose it. It is on her first solo recording, "A Friend Indeed", from 1978, and the title IS listed as "Riding On A Load Of Hay".

https://youtu.be/KKccCneHwkk

24 Nov 22 - 09:04 AM (#4158587)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: GUEST

Thanks again to all, but none of those tunes are right - the one I'm looking for is definitely a waltz-time piece, 3/4 time at about 100bpm not more.

24 Nov 22 - 09:33 AM (#4158588)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Stanron

I agree with Guest above. The named tunes are eight bar tunes. The example in the first post sounds to me to be the first eight bars of a sixteen bar tune. And that would be the A part. I would expect a sixteen bar B part as well. It has an Eastern European or perhaps Jewish feel to it.

I'm not knocking the named tunes. There are some fine tunes there. Also the Folk Tune Finder is a great resource. Is it possible to enter specific note values and bar lines? That might help.

24 Nov 22 - 12:12 PM (#4158613)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: leeneia

It's a pretty tune, Guest. If you don't get it identified, you have two choices - let it die, or compose a new ending for it.

First, repeat what you have, changing the second half of the repeat slightly. That will do for the A part.

Then hum a B part in your head. I suggest you start with a G chord. I call that "turning the corner" - switching the modality at the beginning of B. Get back to Em by the end.

24 Nov 22 - 12:50 PM (#4158616)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Stanron

It's a good idea leeeia. I actually did what you suggested the day after I posted the ABC. I like it but I'm not sure it's what the originator of the thread actually wants.

24 Nov 22 - 01:31 PM (#4158623)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Thanks Guest.

One of the difficulties in identifying the tune is that the first few notes are also exactly the same as the first few notes of some other tunes.

24 Nov 22 - 01:37 PM (#4158624)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Steve Gardham

Okay splitting Helen's tune into 4 parts, the first 3 parts are typical British folk phrases, but that twist in the 4th part sounds more sophisticated and possibly from a musical.

As for Irish folk band 80s, the reminder was there as some were beginning to go off on classical flights of fancy, which is much less likely. What about some of that Gaelic stuff that Enya was putting out?

Just thinking aloud.

Oh, and I really do like it and would like to hear it recycled in some form, yes, with a B part.

24 Nov 22 - 02:52 PM (#4158629)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Guest, I have another question or a few.

You said "She picked it up from an Irish folk band back in the 80s and has never known the title."

When you say and Irish folk band was the band playing actually Irish people, playing in Ireland, or somewhere else, or was it a band playing Irish folk, not necessarily with Irish-born band members? And if it was the latter, where were they playing, country, venue, any further information? And can your wife remember the name of the band or any other songs or tunes that they played? Any further information could be useful.

The tune Riding On A Load Of Hay seems very close to the MIDI tune you gave us, in my opinion. Ignore the timing for the sake of the quest and just listen to the notes of the tune.

25 Nov 22 - 04:29 PM (#4158753)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Wow! That's beautiful, Stanron.

You will need to put your name to that as a tune built on a theme, with notes on it's history.

Beautiful!

For anyone who is not sure what to do with the ABC Notation, I use this ABC to MIDI converter:

Mandolin Tab - abcConverter

Copy and paste the ABC text into the text box and hit the submit button. It will show the music notation and also has links to download the MIDI file and the .pdf of the music notation. [Sorry if you already know this. To be sure, to be sure.]

25 Nov 22 - 04:47 PM (#4158755)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Maybe you could give it the working title, Mystery History Tune? LOL

25 Nov 22 - 06:17 PM (#4158761)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Stanron

Thanks Helen.

27 Nov 22 - 12:02 PM (#4158929)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: GUEST

@Helen - in answer to your questions, she says she was playing in a ceilidh band in Joburg, South Africa, and this tune was part of the repertoire.   They would have been playing medium sized halls and pubs, sometimes as wallpaper for diners, sometimes for dancing.

One might say that therefore it's likely the tune is not Irish, but I think the opposite is true ... the colonies (I grew up there) are more fanatically 'proper' about that kind of thing than the British are.   No band styling itself as 'Irish' would dream of including anything that wasn't Irish, or British Celtic at the very outside.

Of course, this is only my opinion, so the possibility remains that the original tune is not Irish, but I wouldn't attach too much weight to it.

The wife, in a moment of inspiration, remembered the band leader's name and said he would know immediately, so she's gonna try and track him down.

@Stanron - thanks for your contribution :).   It looks pretty good at sight, but I'll have to take a while and work it out.    The fact that everyone seems stumped as to what tune this is makes me think it might be one of that band leader's originals.    The thick plottens.

27 Nov 22 - 12:39 PM (#4158931)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

The thick plottens, indeed! Thanks for the further information and please let us know if your wife finds out more information. I'd especially like to know the rest of the original tune to compare it with Stanron's reinvention.

Did you use an ABC converter for Stanron's version, like the Mandolin Tab - abcConverter I mentioned on 25 Nov 22 - 04:29 PM?

Also, when I hear the tune in my head, I hear it more as 6/8 time than 3/4 time.

South Africa. Not so far away from here, then. I'm in east coast Australia.

17 Dec 22 - 12:10 PM (#4159539)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Helen

Now that Mudcat is back, I'm wondering whether Guest Nigel found out the name of the mystery tune.

Date: 27 Nov 22 - 12:02 PM

"The wife, in a moment of inspiration, remembered the band leader's name and said he would know immediately, so she's gonna try and track him down."

18 Dec 22 - 07:24 AM (#4159607)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Jack Campin

Another version of the "La Mantovana" tune, an 18th century Moroccan Jewish Hanukah song:

Mi Ze Yemalel

18 Dec 22 - 07:28 AM (#4159608)
Subject: RE: Identify tune??
From: Jack Campin

And one from another thread, a dance from the south of France in the early 19th century:

Bourree Aurore Sand