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01 Jun 24 - 12:35 PM (#4203240) Subject: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself The phrase in question - "I forgot my glasses at home" - is the subject of a youtube video for ESL students, is presented as 'wrong', and apparently is marked as such on an ESL exam (whether a specifically UK exam or international, I don't know). Now, I'm not interested in arguing about it here, as the matter is being thoroughly dissected in the youtube comments, but I would like to conduct a straw poll, as there are posters on both sides of the pond who claim never to have even heard this usage - which, frankly, I find hard to believe, certainly in the case of the Americans. So, here's the question: is this a usage you are familiar with (whatever you think of it)? |
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01 Jun 24 - 12:56 PM (#4203243) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Charmion Yes, I hear it frequently. The location of one’s glasses is a hot topic in my circle. |
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01 Jun 24 - 01:17 PM (#4203244) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself They're on your face - you're wearing them! |
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01 Jun 24 - 01:40 PM (#4203245) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: MaJoC the Filk Thanks for the reminder, meself. My great-grandfather was legendary for bellowing around the house, demanding to know where his glasses were. His wife's traditional reply: "Put your hands on your head." Skipping down three generations, I used to pointedly get asked why I had two pairs of glasses rather than getting bifocals, to which I would reply: "How can I see to find my glasses if I haven't got my glasses on?" |
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01 Jun 24 - 01:48 PM (#4203247) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Charmion To be fair to the ESL course designer, the pupils have probably been taught to say "I *left* my glasses at home." This is a case of poor test design; in a multiple-choice question, the list of answers should not include something that is correct, but not preferred. It is dead wrong to teach ESL students that any idiomatic English phrase is "wrong" because it's almost always correct somewhere, sometime! |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:03 PM (#4203248) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself I agree completely - but the course designer is undeserving of your charity, IMO. However, the instructor in the video is mounting a most determined defence of the notion that the phrase is 'wrong', ascending to airy heights of pedantry, and refusing to allow that it's even a common 'misuse', and is supported in this latter contention by various posters in the Comments, who, as I say, claim to be quite unfamiliar with it. Hence, my 'straw poll' here. |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:04 PM (#4203249) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself MaJoC the Filk: I can relate ... sadly ... ! |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:11 PM (#4203252) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen Here in Oz, I have never heard the phrase 'I forgot my glasses at home'. One of the units I studied in my post-grad teaching diploma was ESL and I agree with your comments Charmion. |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:11 PM (#4203253) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Stilly River Sage Yes. I was in a restaurant with a friend recently and he couldn't read the menu. "I forgot to bring my glasses" may have been what he said, but the gist of it was, he left them at home. I reached into my handbag and handed him the spare pair of 2.5+ readers I carry for myself and he ordered without having the menu read to him by me. After cataract surgery I no longer need corrective lenses, only close up for reading and computer work. I frequently "forget my glasses" in one room and end up using a pair I've left in another. At this point I probably have 10 pair of them around the house, by my computer and bedside, and the spare in my purse. They sell a good brand in packs of three or four at Costco for a very good price. (In Texas, US) |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:12 PM (#4203254) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Joe Offer I'm pretty good at not leaving my glasses nowadays, because I can't do much without them. When I needed only reading glasses, I often forgot my glasses at home and often found myself in a problematic situation. And it's not that "left" my glasses at home - I forgot them there, and certainly didn't leave them there occasionally. But nowadays, my problem is with my hiking stick, which I use instead of a cane to to help me walk with a bad hip. And I often forget my cane at home because I actually can walk a couple hundred feet before I start hurting. And I think I don't look as elderly with a hiking stick instead of a cane...and it works better for me. |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:45 PM (#4203255) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: DaveRo meself wrote: ... is this a usage you are familiar with (whatever you think of it)?No. And if someone were to say it I would wonder if they meant they left them at home or whether that was where the glasses were when they forgot where they were. |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:54 PM (#4203257) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself DaveRo - Whereabouts in the world are you? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, just all-inclusive!). |
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01 Jun 24 - 02:56 PM (#4203258) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Doug Chadwick I would like to conduct a straw poll, as there are posters on both sides of the pond who claim never to have even heard this usage I am in England and, as far as I can recall, I have never heard the phrase 'I forgot my glasses at home'. It is either 'I forgot my glasses' or 'I left my glasses at home'. DC |
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01 Jun 24 - 03:07 PM (#4203260) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen Stilly, me too. Pairs of cheap glasses everywhere, although I still use the prescription lenses for computer and reading sessions. The cataract surgeon gave me a choice of lenses and I told him my distance vision is good and I have only needed glasses for computer and reading so he kept it that way. I guess, technically, the "correct" phrase is "I left my glasses at home" but the "forgot" phrase could be a contraction of "I forgot and left my glasses at home". Language changes over time and locations around the world. Teaching ESL students the correct English is good, but they also need to also understand the common phrases being used in their society. As an example, in Oz they would have to know the meaning of "G'day!" and "Goodonya, mate!" to navigate society effectively. LOL |
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01 Jun 24 - 03:08 PM (#4203261) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: DaveRo Southern England. In this case 'at home' - as well as being unusual to the point of unheard of - is ambiguous. Are the forgotten glasses at home, or was the forgetting done at home? Did they remember their glasses, but couldn't find them, or didn't think they'd need them, or didn't think about it? 'At home' is worse than useless. |
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01 Jun 24 - 08:12 PM (#4203272) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Charmion In Canada, most native English speakers would have no problem with “I forgot my glasses at home”. To us, it means “I don’t have my glasses because I forgot to bring them. I’m pretty sure they’re at home.” The statement at issue is essentially an elision. |
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01 Jun 24 - 09:10 PM (#4203275) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Yes: "I forgot to put my glasses in my pocket/handbag/whatever before I left home, so they're still there - at home." Or: "While preparing to leave, I forgot the very existence of my glasses; therefore, I left them at home." But now I'm getting sidetracked - I hope more people will chime in with whether they're familiar with the usage in question. I'm starting to get the impression that it's a North-Americanism. |
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02 Jun 24 - 03:10 AM (#4203281) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: DaveRo Helen wrote: in Oz they would have to know the meaning of "G'day!"When hiking abroad I try to find out what is an acceptable greeting for people we meet on the footpaths (US: 'trails'.) Sometimes I will know or can guess their nationality, but if not it's best - certainly polite - to use the country's language, which can be tricky. In Greece I would use 'kali mera', say, to a cafe owner but learned that 'yassus' get's a more friendly response from local farmers. Here in England I vary my greeting according to the age of the person I address. 'Good Morning' (or afternoon) is fine for older folk but tends to elicit a quizzical look from younger ones, as if they expect me to start a conversation. 'Hi' is safe in all circumstances - and best around noon. Young people often resond with 'how are you?' or 'how you doing?' - which is not a question. As for the original glasses sentence, I wouldn't call it 'wrong' to a student - most people would infer the probable meaning - but it's not correct English. It would be a 'learning opportunity'! |
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02 Jun 24 - 04:56 AM (#4203285) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: The Sandman I am old, seventies,but do not need glasses is the subject in question, correct old english? |
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02 Jun 24 - 11:04 AM (#4203301) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Sandman: have you ever heard, or do you ever hear, this "I forgot my glasses at home" usage in Ireland or in the UK? |
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02 Jun 24 - 11:49 AM (#4203307) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Rain Dog I was born and raised in the south east of England. My parents were from the west of Ireland and I have spent a fair bit of time there over the years. I have never heard the expression "forgot my glasses at home". |
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02 Jun 24 - 11:51 AM (#4203308) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: The Sandman no |
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02 Jun 24 - 12:45 PM (#4203311) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Thanks for all the responses so far. Keep'm coming! |
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02 Jun 24 - 12:54 PM (#4203313) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself (Dick: I wonder if the other drivers on the road are so confident you don't need glasses?) |
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02 Jun 24 - 02:45 PM (#4203326) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Logically, he was at home when he forgot his glasses, so it is correct. Robin |
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02 Jun 24 - 03:02 PM (#4203329) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Reinhard "I left my glasses at home" sounds more as it was done intentionally, similar to "I left him standing". |
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02 Jun 24 - 03:32 PM (#4203335) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Black belt caterpillar wrestler: Are you familiar with this usage? Reinhard: Same question ... ? |
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03 Jun 24 - 12:43 AM (#4203344) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: The Sandman meself, because i have not heard that usage, means nothing, apart from i have not heard it, however i wait in anticipation |
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03 Jun 24 - 01:23 AM (#4203345) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Yes, that's why I'm hoping that more people will respond, so I can get a better idea of where this usage is common and where it isn't. |
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03 Jun 24 - 04:33 AM (#4203348) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I have heard it, but only in the meaning "I can't find my glasses but I know they are in the house". Robin |
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03 Jun 24 - 05:00 AM (#4203351) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen I think Charmion has nailed it: "The statement at issue is essentially an elision", and I don't agree with Reinhard's suggestion that the word "left" implies deliberate intention. "Left standing" does imply deliberate intention, but "left my glasses at home" could possibly be by deliberate intention or more likely could be simple forgetfulness, e.g. I left my glasses on the bus/at the pub/at the cinema etc etc. |
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03 Jun 24 - 06:55 AM (#4203354) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: DaveRo No, it's not an elision - or not in the grammatical sense. And I was wrong when I said it's not correct English. It's correct, but ambiguous: 'at home' could refer to the glasses or the forgetting. In practice it doesn't matter; most people would understand that they forgot their glasses and they're probably at home. "I left my glasses at home" doesn't to me imply it was deliberate. Rather the opposite, but that's probably because glasses are often forgotten and left at home. Unless in a context such as "I couldn't bring everything. I left my glasses at home." But I would assume "I left my car at home" meant it was deliberate. |
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03 Jun 24 - 11:25 AM (#4203370) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Robin: What part of the world are you in? |
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03 Jun 24 - 02:57 PM (#4203385) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen Well it is similar to an elision, except that words in a common phrase have been left out but the intended meaning can still be understood. |
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03 Jun 24 - 03:27 PM (#4203386) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: FreddyHeadey “I forgot my glasses at home” Not here. Cheshire UK It'd be "I forgot my glasses." or "I left my glasses at/in ____” Folk using the phrase - Do you only use it refering to 'home'? If you suddenly realised you were glassesless would “I forgot my glasses in the car” or “I forgot my glasses at the restaurant” feel ok? |
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03 Jun 24 - 03:43 PM (#4203388) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Doug Chadwick “I forgot my glasses at the restaurant” That seems more reasonable to me than "...... at home". Leaving them at home is an inconvenience, whereas leaving them in a restaurant means that they could be lost forever unless you are able to recover them. It is important to impart that urgent information to your companions in the shortest way possible so that action can be taken. DC |
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03 Jun 24 - 03:56 PM (#4203389) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself “I forgot my glasses at the restaurant” - That would be a common, familiar, everyday usage in North America. Btw, in case there's any confusion, this usage doesn't pertain particularly to glasses; it can apply to anything; e.g., "I forgot my switchblade at home"; "I forgot my clown nose at the restaurant" - use your imagination ... ! |
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03 Jun 24 - 03:59 PM (#4203390) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Likewise, "I forgot my Rottweiler in the car." |
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03 Jun 24 - 04:48 PM (#4203392) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen "I forgot my AK47 in the car". Sorry, I've been keeping up to date too much with the recent US political news. :-( I haven't heard it on TV or in movies either although I tend to watch Oz and UK shows more than US or Canadian shows. |
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03 Jun 24 - 05:00 PM (#4203393) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: DaveRo meself wrote: usage doesn't pertain particularly to glasses; it can apply to anythingSure, but the object of 'forget' and and context can influence how this potentally ambiguous construction is interpreted. "Wanna come back to my place?" "Sure. Doh! I forgot my rottweiler in the car." Was the rotweiller forgotten when he left the car, like the glasses were when he left home? |
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03 Jun 24 - 06:10 PM (#4203395) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen Good point, DaveRo. Language usage is not as precise as it could be but that is what makes it interesting. One of my favourite TV documentaries was The Story of English which was the basis of my comment earlier: Language changes over time and locations around the world. (01 Jun 24 - 03:07 PM ) The rate of these changes is exponential now in our technological age, IMO. |
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03 Jun 24 - 06:10 PM (#4203396) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Well, in that instance, he would probably mean, "When I said, 'Sure', I had forgotten that I had left the Rottweiler in the car." However, that usage is a bit of an anomaly that usually arises out of some degree of distress or excitement; more commonly you'd hear, to convey that meaning, "I forgot: I left my Rottweiler in the car." |
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03 Jun 24 - 06:52 PM (#4203398) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself I'm talking about what you'd hear in Canada - don't know about the rest of the world; that's what I'm trying to find out. |
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04 Jun 24 - 10:31 PM (#4203466) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Sandra in Sydney I'd never seen 'forgot (whatever) at home' before & now I have! In an American magazine which is also on line. I'm reading an article in Vanity Fair - CHAT PERSON April 2023 CHARLOTTE KLEIN Muckraker of the moment KARA SWISHER has seemingly every power player in Hollywood, media, and tech on speed dial. Now, as she tangles with Elon Musk and churns out podcasts, the ultimate insider is running her own show. Kara Swisher, rocking aviators, AirPods, and a “Lesbians Who Tech” sweatshirt, rolls into Vox Media’s DC headquarters and gets right to work. Today’s episode of On with Kara Swisher, a twice-weekly podcast that launched in September, is about the future of the Republican Party after the House Speaker free-for-all, and she’s tapped CNN’s Manu Raju and The Bulwark’s Charlie Sykes to make sense of the mess. Once the guests come on camera, Swisher apologizes for wearing sunglasses, explaining that she forgot her prescription pair at home ... but it looks wrong to me - I prefer "left" cos that's what I/you did sandra - who also sometimes leaves her reading/computer glasses at home |
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04 Jun 24 - 10:55 PM (#4203468) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Stilly River Sage Kara Swisher is NOT a muckraker! She's one smart cookie tech reporter. I've followed her reporting for years. (I will note that muckraking is generally a good thing, at least as perceived in the old-fashioned sense in American journalism, the likes of Lincoln Steffens who was the original, or Jacob Riis. Today you might look at someone like Ronan Farrow for that work.) She does tackle hard problems and Musk is a bit mucky, no doubt about it. |
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05 Jun 24 - 12:28 AM (#4203472) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Sandra in Sydney I'm looking forward to finishing the article, I've admired the journalism in VF for years. I used to work in Library & Info section of a Federal agency & we ALWAYS had media callers who wanted info NOW! Our Manager or Assistant Director would drop what they were doing - unless it was for another media organisation, so the new caller had to wait a tad when they were both busy! Reading articles written by someone who had weeks/months to get their story was always a pleasure, I even read articles on stuff I wasn't interested in, tho I still draw a line at the bios of media stars I've never heard of! |
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05 Jun 24 - 12:49 AM (#4203473) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Stilly River Sage She is famous for wearing those aviator sunglasses on her videos. |
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05 Jun 24 - 04:44 AM (#4203479) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Ebbie Speakers - I would imagine, in every language- often speak in short hand. Yes, I have heard- and used- the equivalent of "I forgot my glasses at home." I'm actually saying 'I forgot (and left) my glasses at home' or 'I forgot my glasses (and left them) at home.' May be a regional usage but seems clear enough to me. |
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05 Jun 24 - 09:09 AM (#4203491) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Bill D I don't know if I ever heard that exact phrase, but like Charmion, I would know exactly what was meant. I suppose an editor might suggest changing it for a better form, but in informal conversation it would not be an issue. (I'd never use it because although I can almost do anything without my glasses, they are always with me when I go out... and an older emergency pair in the car in case of breakage.) |
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05 Jun 24 - 11:47 AM (#4203497) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Ebbie: where are you? I don't mean I'm looking for you; I mean, what part of the world? Are you in Alaska, or am I thinking of someone else? Bill D: Likewise: where are ya? I would be very surprised if a North American editor were to notice "I forgot ... at home", which is a perfectly acceptable North American idiom (don't want to get into that argument, though). When I think of the truly egregious grammar and usage errors I've seen come out of highly-regarded publications and publishers in the past decade or two .... (Btw: Charmion said she "hears it frequently".) |
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06 Jun 24 - 08:52 AM (#4203530) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Bill D Oh.. I'm in Northern Virginia after 40+ years in Maryland and 30 years being raised in Kansas. I did say an editor "might" suggest changing it. It would depend on the context. |
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07 Jun 24 - 12:52 AM (#4203571) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Backwoodsman Here in the UK Backwoods of Lincolnshire, I’ve never heard or read anyone use the expression, “I forgot…at home” (or elsewhere, for that matter). My experience (of English English) is that we would say something along the lines of, “I forgot my glasses, and left them at home”, or simply, “I left my glasses at home”. “I forgot my glasses at home” is perfectly understandable, but it sounds a little clumsy and quirky to this Limey. |
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07 Jun 24 - 01:46 PM (#4203592) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Ebbie I'm in southeastern Alaska, meself. We just say that we're in Southeast. Another shorthand.... |
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09 Jun 24 - 07:03 PM (#4203693) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Tattie Bogle Scotland here: agree with others on this side of the pond, that it’s either: I left my glasses at home, or I forgot to bring my glasses. Scots might also say, if they had forgotten where their glasses were: I canna mind where I left them, using “mind” in the sense of remember. |
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10 Jun 24 - 02:40 AM (#4203701) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: MaJoC the Filk > using “mind” in the sense of remember Short for "bring to mind", mayhap? |
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10 Jun 24 - 01:18 PM (#4203718) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Thanks for the responses so far. Some of you may find this interesting: "When thou cuttest down thine harvest in thy field, and hast forgot a sheaf in the field, thou shalt not go again to fetch it ...." - Deuteronomy 24:19, King James Bible Raises the possibility that "forgot ... at/on/in, etc. ... " is one of those old usages that persisted in N. Am. while being lost on the other side. |
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10 Jun 24 - 03:56 PM (#4203723) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Helen MaJoC & Tattie Bogle, I've been thinking but I could be barking up the wrong tree. Although the verb "mind" is not common as far as I know in modern English, except in Scotland, the verb "remind" is very common. The "re" part indicates repetition of the action of the verb, so maybe "mind" as a verb has less common usage outside of Scotland, but the related usage is still common within the verb, i.e. "remind". |
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10 Jun 24 - 07:00 PM (#4203734) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Tattie Bogle I don’t think it has anything to do with remind. Just possibly bring to mind. It just has this extra meaning for Scots of “remember”, e.g. Dae ye mind on that time we went tae Glesga? |
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11 Jun 24 - 12:41 AM (#4203745) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: NightWing US here, I'm from the Mountain West (Colorado, Rocky Mountains) but now live in the Mountain East (panhandle of Virginia, Appalachian Mountains). "I forgot my X at P." meaning "I forgot my [item X] and left them at [place P]." I would call this moderately common phrasing for most items and places and completely understandable. To my ear, at any rate. (However, I don't think that forgetting one's Rottweiler would be common ... anyplace!) BB, NightWing |
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15 Jun 24 - 06:41 AM (#4203942) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Dave the Gnome Never heard it here in the north of England but I wouldn't say it was wrong. Just weird. |
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16 Jun 24 - 06:43 PM (#4204027) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: robomatic Just yesterday I read up on some song lyrics that I'd known for over fifty years but never understood. The song was a Flanders and Swann oldie that is no longer quite PC but in the 50s was sung to mixed audiences on both sides of the pond. The subject was seduction: A roue is trying to talk a young woman into drinking wine with a view to taking her from vertical to horizontal: "Have some Madeira, m'dear." When she figures out his intent, the actual line is: "When he asked 'What in heaven-' she made no reply, up her mind, and a dash for the door." This was what my young ears heard, which my brain did not parse until yesterday the useful internet informed me that this is a zeugma, my mind was supposed to reconstruct from the phrase: She made no reply She made up her mind She made a dash for the door On the ancient LP, after the song, Flanders tells the audience that Swann's young nephew loves the song, sings it all the time: "He thinks it's about cake!" |
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27 Jun 24 - 05:17 AM (#4204550) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: Dave the Gnome My daughter, northern English born and bred, just messaged me - "I was late today! by consequence of missing my bus after forgetting my phone (and so my bus ticket) at home" ! So I retract my earlier statement about never having heard it :-) |
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27 Jun 24 - 01:06 PM (#4204569) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: The Sandman I left my glasses at home, is more familiar phrasing to me |
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03 Jul 24 - 08:40 AM (#4204907) Subject: RE: BS: Language: 'I forgot my glasses at home.' From: meself Thanks, all - very interesting! |