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09 Nov 24 - 03:45 AM (#4211281) Subject: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: The Sandman "Traditional music is for entertaining it is not for a further education class" Bob Davenport. Is there any reason why it cannot be for both? |
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09 Nov 24 - 04:04 AM (#4211282) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: Johnny J It depends what you mean by "Further Education" as well? Are we talking about music tuition(practical and theory) as in the Trad Music Courses or discussion and debate about the music in general? Also, I'd disagree that Trad Music was specifically for entertaining although that's a very important aspect and the most common use. There's also a tradition of "working songs" with fisher folk, miners, loom weavers, tweed "waulking" and so on. Also, we all play music ourselves and often for our own benefits although, arguably, we could be entertaining ourselves. |
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09 Nov 24 - 04:49 AM (#4211283) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: The Sandman JohnnyJ ,good points |
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09 Nov 24 - 04:59 AM (#4211284) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Steve Shaw One hundred percent, Johnny. Also, I'm not sure that we need "trad" in this conversation - maybe just "music." In a book I have about Beethoven the author implicitly characterises music as song or dance, which I suppose is how music "started" thousands of years ago. When it comes to education, I'd be highly suspicious of anyone who tried to use music to "educate" me. Helping me to interpret music is a very different thing. What I like about seeing music as song and dance is the implication that we interact with music and don't just sit back and let it passively entertain us. That can be as basic as singing along with your favourite Beatles songs (even if you just do it inside your head, as Mrs Steve would far prefer that I did). Music can be inspiring, uplifting, edifying, life-affirming, or it may be just a way of relieving the tedium of everyday life, as in those working songs. Or a mixture of all that. The great pianist and conductor Vladimir Ashkenazy one said words to the effect that music was a complete mystery to him. I like that. It's a humbling thought! |
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09 Nov 24 - 12:55 PM (#4211313) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: The Sandman his statement is an interesting reflection of the man himself, a certain irony as the statement appears to me to be didactic. |
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09 Nov 24 - 01:16 PM (#4211317) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: GUEST,RA Just as young children learn best through play... |
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10 Nov 24 - 05:49 AM (#4211360) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: GUEST where exactly does this quote from BD come from? it does sound like him, but you can't just quote people without giving a bit of context, unless you just want to stir up trouble|? |
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10 Nov 24 - 07:32 AM (#4211364) Subject: RE: TRAD MUSIC COMMENT Bob Davenport From: GUEST "a certain irony as the statement appears to me to be didactic. "??? No irony at all unless he sang that quote to a traditional tune. |
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10 Nov 24 - 03:29 PM (#4211402) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: FreddyHeadey ^^ GUEST 10 Nov 24 - 05:49 AM 2014 Guardian review by Rob Young Singing from the Floor by JP Bean Schisms existed almost from the beginning – "It was like puritans and cavaliers," says singer Harvey Andrews – as MacColl ran Ballads and Blues at the Princess Louise pub in London's High Holborn (later the renowned Singers' Club) as a petty dictatorship, a microcosm of imagined musical purity and authenticity. "He laid this stuff down whereby you had to sing from where you came from," complains revival singer Bob Davenport. "Traditional music was for entertaining, it wasn't for a further education class." For MacColl and other hardliners, folk music was a revolutionary tonic to fortify the troops against the advancing pop-music hordes. Eventually he set up, with Seeger, his own politburo – the weekly study sessions known as the Critics Group, a ritual of essentialism that was taken up elsewhere. In one Nottingham club, a panel of frowning committee members sat on a windowsill behind the stage, and their disapproving faces could be observed by the audience while the poor singer strove to please. For younger performers such as guitarist John Renbourn, these folk assizes were "sheer hell". www.theguardian.com/books/2014/feb/26/singing-floor-folk-review-jp-bean more www.google.com/search?q=%22Singing+from+the+Floor%22+%22JP+Bean%22 _________________________ |
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10 Nov 24 - 03:52 PM (#4211406) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman In one Nottingham club, a panel of frowning committee members sat on a windowsill behind the stage, quote Frowning, really they sat there all night frowning? that is unlikely, there was a club in Nottingham with a reputation for a high standard of traditional singing, where the residents sat behind the stage, but to give the impression that they always sat there frowning is ridiculous, this club NTMC had a Policy and was very succesful for many years. There was another club in south west london that had a blues policy, and it too was successful |
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10 Nov 24 - 06:24 PM (#4211411) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: meself If there's one thing I've learned from Mudcat, it's that there is not a consensus opinion regarding MacColl and his approach to folk-singing. |
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10 Nov 24 - 11:15 PM (#4211420) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman in my opinion, and it is only an opinion, the best way to approach traditional music or any musical genre is to listen to it a lot and absorb and practice. I did not like the policy of resident singers sitting behind performers ,i think it creates a them and us situation, it was not a policy of the singers club but of Nottingham traditional music club. But no one was ever forced to go to a particular club there were plenty of different clubs with different policies, people had plenty of choice. People should be free to learn the history of songs if they want to without being criticised for it, however presenting background to songs in performance requires avoiding being long winded and didactic . |
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11 Nov 24 - 12:12 AM (#4211421) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman Music and Trad Music is also about connecting, expressing feeling, emotion, happiness sadness, stimulating thought, challenging the status quo? A slow air, for example is about expressing' sadness, so to say. Traditional music is for entertaining is an over simplification |
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11 Nov 24 - 02:41 AM (#4211423) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: SPB-Cooperator There is more to folk singing than standing up and making a noise, but at the same time there is a world of difference between lecturing and informing the audience. Similarly there is no reason my part of the folk singer's craft should be to inform - but in an entertaining way, particularly where the context of fol song may be lost in the modern contemporary world. At the same time, as singers we need to understand the context of what we are singing, out of respect for our material and that understanding should project itself through the performance. I often saw this at the Players Theatre where we could see the difference between seasoned performers and those new to the genre. Similarly I have heard people singing shanties because they have rousing choruses without fully understanding the context not just the lyrics but also the timing and stresses.(Though I think the group I belonged to did have a tendency to lecture a little bit - On the other hand Stan's (Hugill) intros were appropriate as he lived and worked in the genre). |
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11 Nov 24 - 02:45 AM (#4211424) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea What a pointless and vacuously conceived thread.
Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor. |
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11 Nov 24 - 06:00 AM (#4211435) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST I'd say Bob would not regard himself as a 'performer' at all but rather as a part of the tradition of music, where he never lost his place in it- with not much time for the 'folk' aspect of the music. Whether he as 'successful' or not is irrelevant- he did influence a lot of people, and has done festivals & folk clubs where asked, but his heart has always been in a wider range of music, old and new, and his repertoire supports that view. |
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11 Nov 24 - 06:36 AM (#4211437) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Derrick The concept of "folk song" as an art form was invented by Victorian scholars who were amazed to find that the lower classes had songs and tunes of their own at a time when they were considered uneducated and uncultured. The songs they sang were a mixture of self penned material and published songs which they enjoyed and had meaning to them. They would be sung at social events or as a means of passing time at home, the equivalent of watching tv today. If you find research and study of the history of songs interesting enjoy that aspect by all means do so,the problem comes when, as some people do, take their studies so seriously it becomes almost a religion and they criticise those those who merely treat it as entertainment.The bottom line is no one is right or wrong |
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11 Nov 24 - 07:51 AM (#4211440) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: Manitas_at_home The quote above mentioned a Nottingham club. We don't know if it was a folk club, although that was implied, and we don't know if it was Nottingham traditional music club. Is it possible there was more than one folk club in Nottingham? |
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11 Nov 24 - 08:53 AM (#4211444) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman there were several ,but there was only one club where residents sat behind perfomers and that was NTMC, I lived in Nottingham in the late 1980s, it was definItely NTMC |
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11 Nov 24 - 09:10 AM (#4211445) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: SPB-Cooperator Sean, I beg to differ, leaving individual personalities to one side, this can lead to an interesting discussion about how we present ourselves when performing and being able to 'read the audience'. |
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11 Nov 24 - 09:13 AM (#4211446) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: SPB-Cooperator By knowing ones audience, whether thy are the cognoscenti or a wide audience who may not know as much about the music as the in crowd do. |
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11 Nov 24 - 09:32 AM (#4211451) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: MaJoC the Filk > amazed to find that the lower classes had > songs and tunes of their own It goes back further. If I remember my early/baroque music right, the English upper-class's music (think Henry Purcell et al) died out when it was displaced by music of Italian origin, specifically when Handel came to town. The music composed for one English monarch's coronation* exists only in sparse fragments, and the rest was lost; I've heard some of said fragments, and it's *dire*. No wonder Handel's happy tunes swept the board. Skip on to the late 19th Century, and we find composers looking for inspiration that wasn't from the Continent. In England, and in the USA, they discovered the lower-classes' music. Cue the first folk revival, and such composed pastiche arrangements as Vaughan Williams's Fantasia on Greensleeves (which embeds Lovely Joan as its middle-eight). * I forget which one. Enlightenment humbly requested. |
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11 Nov 24 - 02:00 PM (#4211473) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea TO Joe Offer. I am not stalking anyone.I never open a thread that negativises anyone's view or personal literary characteristics or their contribution to a post.I only respond to spurious views, as I see them-as do other contributors in respect of this specific poster,as you well know.It is untrue to say that I only post about this specific contributor to inception of forums-as you well know.
-Joe Offer, Mudcat Music Editor- |
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11 Nov 24 - 03:17 PM (#4211477) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch "...He laid this stuff down whereby you had to sing from where you came from," complains revival singer Bob Davenport. "Traditional music was for entertaining, it wasn't for a further education class." For MacColl and other hardliners, folk music was a revolutionary tonic to fortify the troops against the advancing pop-music hordes.... I'm reading the above as neither Davenport's nor MacColl's perspective on folk music. It's Davenport's complaint about MacColl as 'folk' music producer/manager. MacColls own words on that subject are absent and, little doubt, not the same as Davenport's. And said opinion would certainly include MacColl on political education/indoctrination's part in his so-called 'folk' process. Hugill? First, forget about the 'history' and the 'science.' Second, ignore the frowners. Third, have all the fun you can squeeze out of those forebitters. They ain't shanties... no matter where the folk club singer is from. |
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12 Nov 24 - 03:27 AM (#4211503) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman I like the idea of traditional music being performed in places of education, live and via recordings.I do not see any reason why traditional singing cannot be presented in an entertaining manner in schools |
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12 Nov 24 - 09:35 AM (#4211515) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: MaJoC the Filk Thought for the Day: If music as presented in schools has had all the fun boiled out of it, it ain't education either, as it won't "take". I believe in education through humour. It helps the topic to stick in the mind, even if only by causing it to stick in the throat. |
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13 Nov 24 - 04:22 AM (#4211559) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: Jack Campin Davenport ignored the point of MacColl's club. It wasn't intended to entertain an audience, it was intended to train a generation of entertainers. So it WAS a further education class, more than anything else. It could be totally successful at that while also being boring as fuck to sit through. |
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13 Nov 24 - 12:44 PM (#4211580) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman I never went to the singers club so I cannot talk from personal experience. It is well documented that Bob Dylan sang there in 1962, And I believe Seamus Ennis was booked there and that Tom Paley used to turn up there In the early 1960s, Carthy visited Ewan MacColl's Ballads & Blues club to watch a friend, the singer Roy Guest. The main performer that night was Sam Larner. |
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13 Nov 24 - 03:43 PM (#4211587) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman Did anyone of the above posters ever go to the Singers club? |
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13 Nov 24 - 03:45 PM (#4211588) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: Manitas_at_home I did but it was in the late 80s and then only twice. |
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13 Nov 24 - 08:22 PM (#4211603) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch For we Colonials: The Singer's Club wasn't a venue proper. On the west side of the big pond it would be something more like “Singer's Night” at the Pindar of Wakefield club. Never went during the era. I did experience the usual suspects at the 1960 West Indian Gazette Anniversary Concert (+Paul Robeson, Cy Grant, Nadia Cattouse &co.) Came away thinking MacColl & Seeger didn't know Ghana from Guyana and probably couldn't find either on a map. Cattouse & MacColl were doing a show with Trinidadian Edric Connor of the British Gov's Songs from Jamaica (Day-O &c) fame. The whole lot was pretty capitalist-adjacent when outside the “Club.” Which brings us to: For MacColl and other hardliners, folk music was a revolutionary tonic to fortify the troops against the advancing pop-music hordes. Dylan was managed by Yank folk mogul Albert Grossman, founder of Chicago's legendary Gate of Horn folk club. You think the Singer's Club were control freaks? Pffft! But… as Peggy's brother-in-law John Cohen once put it... Dylan was even weirder than Grossman, so it never really took. And Peggy's brother Pete had spent the better part of the 1950s buying up publishing rights to a swath of American pop/commercial 'folk' with his newest business pal, mega-mogul Howie Richmond (TRO-Folkways, Paul Campbell aka The Weavers &c&c.) If one wanted to sing Leadbelly, somebody else had to get paid. The Smithsonian owns it all now. Ahhhh, the good ol' days! |
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13 Nov 24 - 08:56 PM (#4211604) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: The Sandman I ran a folk club in Bury St Edmunds in the early 80S, Ewan and Peggy were booked and provided an Entertaining evening, the venue was packed, over 100 people, their presentation and general performance was well crafted. I did a support for them in Leicester in 1985, there were 500 people there, again they were very professional, very polished, and provided an evening of carefully selected thought provoking and entertaining material. Bob had a different approach,which worked well for him,he has many fans and is also very popular. So it seems there is more than one way of doing the Hokey Cokey |
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14 Nov 24 - 03:01 AM (#4211608) Subject: RE: Trad Music Comment from Bob Davenport From: r.padgett Looks like some thread drift! I remember seeing BD at Whitby and amazed at his leather lungs singing ~ I saw him at Shafton Two Gates, folk club (Cudworth side of Barnsley0 run by Ken Hudson who currently has Radio programme in West Yorkshire Ewan and Peggy I saw at a folk club pub gig I think at Crofton near Wakefield must have been in the 1980s Ray |