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05 Dec 24 - 05:37 PM (#4212952) Subject: copyright tune dick swain figuurehead From: GUEST,guest mg could someone help. I want to put on a cd and Dick Swain wrote the tune. What are the rules of copyrighting tunes and how would I do this? |
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05 Dec 24 - 06:51 PM (#4212959) Subject: RE: copyright tune dick swain figurehead From: RTim Who controls his Estate? Did Dick have any children...?? Tim Radford |
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05 Dec 24 - 07:19 PM (#4212960) Subject: RE: copyright tune dick swain figurehead From: Stilly River Sage This request ties in with this Mudcat thread: New CD about boat building - M. Garvey |
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05 Dec 24 - 07:24 PM (#4212962) Subject: RE: copyright tune dick swain figurehead From: GUEST, maeve Mary, contact Gordon Bok for help. |
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05 Dec 24 - 09:15 PM (#4212971) Subject: RE: copyright tune dick swain figurehead From: Joe Offer And Mary, if you get an answer, please post it. I've checked a number of resources and have no response yet. I have several emails out. This is a terrific song, and it needs to be available for people to record. You might like to check with many of the people (some Mudcatters) who have recorded this song, although I think most of these people have known Dick personally and recorded the song before Dick died in January 2024: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22old+figurehead+carver%22
It's not listed at the Harry Fox Agency, which is the easiest place for song licensing. Dick Swain's is the only melody I know for this song. Are there others? Dick was such a wise and organized person that it's hard for me to believe that he didn't make provisions for people to get rights to record this song. On the other hand, Dick was so humble that perhaps he didn't suspect that people might want to record his composition. And I gotta say, I feel honored that I had the privilege of spending time with Dick a few times at the FSGW Getaway. What a magnificent man he was! It makes me smile to think of him, a True Renaissance Man. And if you want to hear the song performed perfectly, listen to this performance by John Roberts, another True Renaissance Man I've had the privilege of knowing. Here's one John Roberts YouTube performance, but there are many: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcOUxZSyb-g |
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05 Dec 24 - 10:18 PM (#4212972) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,mg Thanks everyone. i will contact gordon bok and others. Is it possible that the tune was not copyrighted? If so, what then? Or is recording it proof enough I love everything about making cds except the copyright and darned if i will ever try to do another canadian one. Usually I just say no copyrights, but that song and shipright apprentice are just so great. How do we do that in england? And I do love John Roberts' version of figurehead carver. Did not realize till today it was about marco polo, although it might even say so in the song. I am terrible about listening well to lyrics. |
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06 Dec 24 - 01:28 AM (#4212975) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Joe Offer I thought Dan Schatz might know, since I believe he was the pastor who officiated at the funeral for Dick Swain and his wife - Dan didn't know, but he's checking. Now I'm trying to contact John Roberts and Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman. Certainly one of them will know. But Mary, keep trying to contact Gordon Bok. -Joe- |
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06 Dec 24 - 05:06 AM (#4212985) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,jugmws (Mick Shaw) One of the most helpful people I know is Dave Webber; I am sure he will not mind. Last I heard they had moved to The Old Hall Upper Seagry Wilts. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland Hope all is well m |
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06 Dec 24 - 09:10 PM (#4213044) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Charley Noble Good luck in the search. We do believe in our hearts that we're immortal and that may be true. But we should make clear what the copyright status of our songs is. I appreciate Tom Lehrer putting out an explicit statement that all his songs were in the public domaine. |
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07 Dec 24 - 12:22 PM (#4213073) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Dave Webber & Anni Fentiman We recorded the song in 2003 with the direct permission of Dick. I’m afraid we have no idea who might own the copyright for the tune since his death. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn he didn’t register it at all. Has anyone asked John Roberts? |
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07 Dec 24 - 01:53 PM (#4213079) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Joe Offer Thanks, Dave & Anni - I've got emails out to John Roberts and Geoff Kaufman. |
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07 Dec 24 - 03:18 PM (#4213080) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Dan Schatz I didn't officiate at Dick and Nancy's memorial, but they were dear friends and I was there. Consulting with folks in Maine, the consensus seems to be that Dick's stepdaughter (Nancy's daughter) is the one to talk to. Hopefully I'll be hearing back with contact information soon. Dan |
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08 Dec 24 - 12:10 AM (#4213103) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Mary G thanks everyone. |
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09 Dec 24 - 09:46 AM (#4213213) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Howard Jones The rules on copyright depend on which legal jurisdiction you are in. In many jurisdictions, including the US, copyright arises automatically whne the work is created. It does not have to be formally registered, although doing so may help support a claim, and may be necessary before a legal claim can be brought for breach. If you are making a CD you will need a mechanical copyright licence. Where the composer is a member of a rights organisation eg Harry Fox then the agency will issue the licence on their behalf. However if it not registered with the agency this does not mean it is not copyright, instead it means you must negotiate with the rights holder yourself. The difficulty then, as you are finding, is identifying who this is and how to contact them. If the original composer has died the rights may belong to their estate, but they might have been assigned to a publisher. If you cannot trace them, you will need to decide whether to go ahead without permission. You will need to consider how big a risk this might be. Do you think it is likely that the rights holder will object if they later find out, and if they do are they likely to be satisfied with a royalty payment? I have found that most people in the folk world are generous and are often willing to waive royalties, which in any event are unlikely to be much. However you can never be sure, especially when the rights have passed to someone else who may be protective of them. It may help if you can show you had made every effort to find the rights holder. Only you can decide whether or not to take the risk of going ahead without permission. You also need to consider the lyrics, which may also be copyright. The lyrics are by Hiram Cody, who died in 1948. Copyright usually runs for 70 years from death so they are probably now in the public domain. But check for yourself. There is plenty of information on mechanical copyright on the internet and if you are making a CD you do need to understand this. However remember that the rights agencies are concerned only with protecting the rights of their members and don't cover all situations. |
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09 Dec 24 - 11:04 AM (#4213234) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,mg which is why i hate going through this unless i can just go through fox and be OK. But there are other reasons I avoid copyrights. I respect people's work and just don't use it if I can, so unless there is an amazing song I just bypass things. |
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09 Dec 24 - 11:37 AM (#4213237) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Anglo Sorry for my late reply, I was in hospital. I recorded the song with Dick's verbal permission. Dick wrote the tune, but he also wrote the extra chorus (not in the original poem), and for me it's the chorus that really makes the song. The song was written as a wedding present for Gordon Bok and his wife, Gordon being not only a singer and songwriter, but also a woodcarver. If it had been formally copyrighted, I don't know who would own the copyright. As far as I know he had no children, and his wife passed shortly before he did. She did have a daughter, however, but it's quite likely that she wouldn't know anything about it. I would think that for a limited release recording, copyright shouldn't be a problem, so long as Dick is given proper credit for his tune and chorus addition to create his song arrangement. John Roberts |
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09 Dec 24 - 01:20 PM (#4213247) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Howard Jones "But there are other reasons I avoid copyrights. I respect people's work and just don't use it if I can" I find this statement puzzling. The best way to respect people's work is to perform it, and that may include recording it. Copyright does not exist to prevent music from being performed, it is there to protect creator's rights and ensure they are rewarded for their work. Copyright arises automatically, but many creators choose not to exercise it, either expressly through creative commons or implicitly by not joining a rights organisation to collect royalties on their behalf. You have already shown respect for these rights by trying to track down the rights holder. If, as Anglo says, it was written as a wedding present for Gordon Bok and his wife that might suggest that this gift included the rights to the work. In your place I would contact Gordon. If he did not feel able to give permission then I would record it with a clear conscience, knowing I had done what I could to seek permission. It goes without saying that it should be properly attributed, and should the actual rights-holder make themselves known at a later date then you should offer to pay the appropriate royalties, if they want payment. I think it is very doubtful that even in a society as litigious as the USA a rights-holder would bother to sue over only a few dollars which you would be willing to pay anyway. Certainly I would be willing to take that risk. |
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09 Dec 24 - 01:57 PM (#4213249) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Stilly River Sage The complications involved in getting the copyright permission is the problem, Howard. And often times the cost if it goes through one of the gatekeeper agencies. What you see as "doubtful" really isn't worth the risk. Just going ahead and then being confronted later by one of the agencies can wipe out a project. The same goes with publishing photos online - making sure they aren't held by Getty, etc., who are insidious in their copyright claims. (This aspect applies to disk cover art.) |
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13 Dec 24 - 11:06 AM (#4213449) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Howard Jones If the copyright is managed by one of the agencies then it should be possible to obtain the appropriate licence from them. Isn't the difficulty here that the copyright isn't registered with an agency and the copyright holder is hard to identify? Whether it's worth the risk of recording without permission does of course depend on your view of the possible consequences. If a claim was subsequently made then I would agree that the copyright holder is entitled to royalties at the appropriate rate, but where the artist had made reasonable efforts to find the copyright holder who had not taken steps themselves to make their ownership discoverable then I would resist any additional punitive claim. It's a matter of judgement, but the copyright holder also has to decide whether it's worth pursuing a claim as far as the court over a small sum (I'm assuming this will be a fairly small-scale release) or to negotiate a reasonable settlement. Again, I'm not talking about the agencies here but unregistered copyright owners. In my experience, amateur composers on the folk scene are often reasonable about these things. But only the OP can make that judgement. However problems can arise if the copyright is subsequently assigned to an agency, even if you had the copyright holder's permission at the time of recording. My band recorded a tune by one of the band members, who held the copyright but is not a member of MCPS (the UK agency), and obviously we had his permission. A few years later it was recorded again by another band member for a solo album with an established label, and that label (which was registered) handled the copyright on the composer's behalf. MCPS then came after us for a fee, despite the fact that we had the correct permission at the time. It took some time to unravel, and then only with the cooperation of the label. I don't see any way to avoid this, although the lesson was to get all permissions in writing even where they are members of the band. |
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13 Dec 24 - 02:05 PM (#4213461) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Joe Offer Hi, Howard - Yeah, that's about the situation. I knew Dick, and I know most or all of the people who recorded the song - with oral permission from Dick. As far as I can tell, Dick never registered a copyright on the song. Dick's wife died a short time before he did. She had children, but he apparently did not. -Joe- |
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13 Dec 24 - 09:54 PM (#4213477) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: Stilly River Sage There have been a few times when I was contacted by people who wanted to record songs my father wrote. I figured it was easiest to look at the standard rate from ASCAP and it came to about $75 per album people were working on. Not a huge amount, but as noted, it created a record in writing for both of us. |
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14 Dec 24 - 02:51 PM (#4213502) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,mg thanks everyone. it is such a great tune and chorus that otherwise I would not bother..but it is worth it. I have contact information now and hopefully will get permission. This will be a small run, as usual, and I promise not to get rich from it. |
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14 Dec 24 - 07:33 PM (#4213522) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Cindy Kallet Gordon recorded this on his "Apples in the Basket" album, and this is what he says in the liner notes: "Dick Swain found this wonderful poem in an old book, 'Songs of a Bluenose', by H.A. Cody. Dick gave this to Carol and me as a wedding present, having made a handsome tune and a chorus for it, and of course I had to learn it, woodcarver that I am. Cody was a preacher and a poet in St. John, New Brunswick, where the Marco Polo was built." Gordon lists the copyright info as follows: ©1925 H.A. Cody / music and chorus lyrics ©1996 Dick Swain. |
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14 Dec 24 - 08:30 PM (#4213523) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Songs of a Bluenose (1925) Cody, H. A. (Hiram Alfred), 1872-1948 |
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18 Dec 24 - 08:36 PM (#4213707) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,George Stephens My wife Kathy (nee Westra) has put Mary in touch with Dick's step-children, the executors of his estate. |
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20 Dec 24 - 11:13 AM (#4213786) Subject: RE: Copyright Tune Dick Swain Old Figurehead Carver From: GUEST,maeve Thank you to Gordon and to Anna at Timberhead for their essential help. |