To Thread - Forum Home

The Mudcat Café TM
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=173941
20 messages

Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK

12 Mar 25 - 10:55 PM (#4218995)
Subject: BS: help with copyright Shipyard Appren. UK
From: Mary G

I know Joe Offer has tried to help, and we were not able to fight our way through the tape. Does anyone, perhaps in UK, know how to copyright shipyard apprentice in UK? I think it is MC?? something. I could not get very far..I just want to produce 200 or so cds and not charge too much. I will not get rich. If anyone could help me that would be great.

12 Mar 25 - 11:43 PM (#4218996)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Mary -
I hope you don't mind. I moved this to the music section because that's where it belongs. In the other thread, we established that "The Fairfield Crane" and "Shipyard Apprentice" are one and the same song, written by Archie Fisher..

And I don't think you want to copyright the song - you want to license the song. But it sounds like you want to license it for publication in the UK, and I'm wondering why.

I tried to look up US licensing information, and songfile.com is down today. Or are you seeking to contact Archie Fisher to directly get a license from him? I'm sure somebody has contact information for him, but I don't know how to go about getting a license from an individual.

-Joe-

13 Mar 25 - 12:32 AM (#4218998)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GerryM

Perhaps Mary wants to copyright an *arrangement*? (not that I know anything about how to do that)

13 Mar 25 - 02:26 AM (#4219002)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Backwoodsman

Have you tried the MCPS/PRS website? It’s all on there. It was very simple and comparatively cheap when I released my little CD of ‘covers’ back in 2005 (200 copies, IIRC).

MCPS/PRS Licences tab

Hope that helps.

13 Mar 25 - 07:28 AM (#4219015)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

Are you in the UK or US?

The procedure with making CDs is to obtain a licence from the mechanical copyright rights organisation for your country. In the UK this is MCPS. You submit a list of all the tracks (including public domain ones) and they calculate a royalty fee for all those which are copyright. When you've paid MCPS they then issue a licence, which the CD manufacturer will need before they will press the CDs. MCPS is responsible for apportioning the fee between the all the rights holders and paying them.

I'm not sure how this works in the US where I believe there may be more than one licensing organisation. I'm sure someone there can point you in the right direction. I believe the rights organisations in different countries have reciprocal arrangements to ensure that the rights owners get paid.

The system is intended to avoid the problem of identifying, tracking down and negotiating with all the rights holders whom you may wish to record. However many folk composers are not professionals and may not be registered with a rights organisation. or for whatever reason the rights organisation might not be able to licence it, in which case you will need to negotiate direct with the rights holder. However this seems very unlikely to apply in this case, where the composer is an internationally-known artist.

13 Mar 25 - 09:02 AM (#4219026)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

The PRS database shows the composer as Archie Fisher and the publisher as Kettle Music, with mechanical copyright managed by MCPS. However as I said in my previous post, you should go through your local rights management organisation in the first instance.

14 Mar 25 - 04:50 PM (#4219126)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,mg

thanks all. I spent some time on the MCPS site and it ended up with me paying $300. Never will happen. I will try other links. If anyone knows Archie Fisher and could just ask him what he wants or point me somewhere, great. It is an awesome song but this is why I generally avoid copyrights. I should say license like Joe said. I will try the site again but if anyone knows how to get me down to ten cents per copy that would be great. otherwise i will have to leave out the song.

14 Mar 25 - 06:20 PM (#4219133)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Joe Offer

Mary, are you planning to market this CD outside the US? If not, you can just go through Songfile.com and get a license.But I still can't get the Songfile.com Website to work.

15 Mar 25 - 08:42 AM (#4219156)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

Where copyright is managed by a rights organisation you cannot circumvent that by going direct to the composer for permission. When a composer joins a rights organisation they appoint the organisation as their agent. It is no longer in the composer's gift to give permission. The rights organisation will track down what it perceives to be unauthorised use and demand a licence fee.

I had a situation where my band recorded a track written by one of the band members. He wasn't a member of MCPS and was able to give his permission to use it royalty-free. It went down as "copyright controlled" on the list we gave to MCPS, which indicates it was not their copyright to administer. Several years later a different band member recorded the track on a solo album. The composer was not eligible to join MCPS himself as the first recording was self-released (and the fee would have exceeded his expected earnings) so he assigned his rights to the record label, which was already a member of MCPS, and they would pay the royalties to him. MCPS then came after us for the original use, and wouldn't accept that we had permission from the then rights holder before MCPS took it on. I don't think the point was ever settled, and we had to ask the record label to sort it out.

16 Mar 25 - 09:14 PM (#4219261)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,MG

I SWEAR this is the worst website ever. I can not tell it I am in US. It thinks I am in UK. I do not know what to do. Backwoodsman, you seem to have knowledge about this. Are you able to help me?

17 Mar 25 - 09:51 AM (#4219287)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: MaJoC the Filk

Quick tip, MG: Have a look at Mudcat Time at the foot of the page, then at your watch .... :-)

17 Mar 25 - 12:29 PM (#4219309)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Backwoodsman

Sorry MG, my experience is limited to publishing music on CD in the UK, and registering work as a composer in the UK. I have no knowledge of procedures in the US. I’m guessing you’ve already searched for the work in the Repertories of the six PROs in the US - ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, GMR, PROMusic Rights, and Alltrack?

If the work isn’t registered with any of those, all I can suggest is ‘phoning PRS For Music at 0044 203 741 3888, or emailing them at applications@prsformusic.com and explaining to them what you’re trying to do. I know they have reciprocal arrangements with PROs in around 150 countries outside the U.K., and I found them very helpful when I published my CD as a Limited Manufacture Product solely in the UK.

Sorry I can’t give you more than that, but I’d hate to lead you ‘up the garden path’ and waste even more of your time.

Best of luck, I hope it all turns out well for you.

19 Mar 25 - 01:51 PM (#4219447)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

Like Backwoodsman, my experience is limited to the UK. However it is my belief that you have to get the licence in the country where you are publishing the CD. There is some information about mechanical licensing in the USA here:

Obtaining copyright permissions

"Mechanical licenses apply to reproduction and distribution of musical works on records and CDs, in permanent digital downloads, and in some other digital uses. For example, these licenses permit subsequent recording artists to “cover” songs written by others. The royalty rates for records, CDs, and permanent digital downloads are set by statute, and the licenses are compulsory. The Harry Fox Agency is the primary source for mechanical licenses in the United States"

I suggest you contact Harry Fox Agency for advice. Harry Fox uses a system called Songfile for mechanical licenses:
Songfile

If I am correct it should not be necessary to contact a UK agency (which is MCPS for mechanical licenses) or the publisher unless Harry Fox cannot grant it.

You should also be aware that you own the copyright of your own performance on the CD - this is quite separate from any composers' copyright. If your CD is played in public or broadcast you are entitled to be paid. The royalty is shared between the publisher and the performers, so if you are self-releasing then you may have to register as both. In the UK the relevant organisation is PPL, in the US I think it is Sound Exchange. I wish someone had told me about this when I first released an album, as one track got played regularly on the BBC, probably because one of the composers was the programme's presenter. He would have received royalties for this, we didn't get a penny because we didn't know about PPL and hadn't registered with it.

19 Mar 25 - 11:59 PM (#4219479)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,mg

I have searched songfile for shipyard apprentice and also under fairfield crane. Nothing.

Is this enough to show that i did a diligent search and i am willing to send a check at our regular rates (around ten cents us per copy) if someone can be found to accept it?

20 Mar 25 - 04:58 AM (#4219488)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Howard Jones

It is in there, under songcode S21809.

The search engine isn't very reliable, I found it by searching for "Shipyard app".

20 Mar 25 - 11:21 AM (#4219498)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,mg

i tried with code and Shipyard app. Could it be I should search under a different author? There were several people involved. I also looked under Fairfield Crane

20 Mar 25 - 12:32 PM (#4219502)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

The Songfile website seems very unfriendly and difficult to use. Are you registered and logged in? If not then you might not see all the results.

It's definitely in there. I'm still finding it with "Shipyard app".

Song Code: S21809
Song Title: SHIPYARD APPRENTICE
Songwriters: FISHER,MILES,VIVIAN CAMPBELL
Publisher:MECHANICAL COPYRIGHT PERFORMANCE SOCIETY (UK)

Try contacting Harry Fox Agency if you're not getting anywhere with the website.

23 Mar 25 - 11:25 PM (#4219685)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Guest MG

thanks. i will try again tomorrow. supposedlly a buchan was involved. never heard of miles.

24 Mar 25 - 08:22 AM (#4219702)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

Norman Buchan and Bobby Campbell are also usually credited with this song along with Archie Fisher. Buchan was a teacher and folklorist who was an influential figure in the Scottish folk revival and was instrumental in introducing Archie Fisher and Bobby Campbell to folk song and encouraging them to explore the songs of Scotland's industrial heritage and to write their own.

Booby Campbell was a fiddle player and journalist who worked with Archie and his sister Ray, and with Gordon McCulloch and Enoch Kent formed the group The Exiles who were an important influence during the formative years of the folk revival.

Both are now dead, and I guess that "Miles" and "Vivian Campbell" are the beneficiaries of their estates.

24 Mar 25 - 08:32 AM (#4219703)
Subject: RE: Help with copyright Shipyard Apprentice UK
From: Howard Jones

I should have added that Norman Buchan was also a Labour Member of Parliament